Misplaced Pages

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2008 Spring cleaning

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Drow image

Does anyone know what might be a good image for Drow (Dungeons & Dragons)? I'm going to try really improving the article and an image would be helpful. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

We could get a fair use image from Wizards.com's Drow of the Underdark art gallery. For a single image, I'd recommend "Constant Guardian" by Franz Vohwinkel, as it's the only one with a good view of both a male and female Drow. With two images, I'd recommend either "Constant Guardian" and "Elves" by Todd Lockwood (on the 5th page of the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting gallery) or one image with a good view of a male Drow and one with a good view of a female Drow. If you're going to use three or more images, I'd recommend "Elves", at least one image with a good view of a male Drow and at least one with a good view of a female Drow. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't know whether or not images from the art galleries could be used under fair use... I'm guessing I'd need to reduce their resolution, right? Also, right claim of fair-use do you think would work? Thanks! -Drilnoth (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually I don't know much about American fair use law, however I just skimmed Misplaced Pages:Non-free content, and it's stricter than I thought it was. It seems that the policy only allows "paintings and other works of visual art" and "other promotional material" is only acceptable when used for critical commentary. Also, according to the policy "Copyrighted images that reasonably can be replaced by free/libre images are not suitable for Misplaced Pages.". It looks like you might need to find some fan art with a free license. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 01:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

But is fan-art genuinely free? I remember we had a discussion about that long ago, and we thought that fan-art is derivative of WotC's non-free content - i.e. descriptions and/or illustrations in the source manuals. BreathingMeat (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, but the Illithid article has used a fan art image for over a year without any complaints. I've brought up the issue of the seemingly pointless critical commentary clause at Misplaced Pages talk:Non-free content#Critical commentary. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There used to be a lovely fan-art Beholder at Image:beholder.jpg which was used on the talk page for Beholder to clarify what the article was about. It was deleted a couple of times, with reason "copyvio". I hope this policy changes because it seems silly that we cannot illustrate the monster articles, even by drawing pictures ourselves. Especially in light of the fact that there IS fan-art being published all over the Internet with no trouble from WotC. BreathingMeat (talk) 20:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If it really was fan-art that was released into the public domain, I'd assume that the deleter just thought that it was a copyvio, and now it could probably be restored. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It also says that there's an image with the same name at Commons in the most recent deletion entry, but there isn't. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Also regarding images in general, I've added one to Centaur (Dungeons & Dragons). -Drilnoth (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems that there were some misunderstandings regarding the commons' policies. The image on commons on July 11th due to violating Commons:Derivative works. The local version was deleted on October 29th last year due to allegedly meeting the I8 speedy deletion criterion, despite the image violating the contemporary version of the commons' policy on derivative works, and despite the contemporary version of the deletion policy restricting I8 to images which do not violate the commons' policies. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Maxim to to undelete it here. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I fixed your talk-page link. -Drilnoth (talk) 12:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Derivative works seems very clear and explicit on the matter of using derivative works to illustrate articles about copyrighted works. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Whether or not correct procedure was followed in the deletion of the Beholder picture, it remains the case that we should not be using it. Sadly it appears that many of the monster articles should remain unillustrated, and that the Illithid image should probably go too. Of course, this does not apply to monsters whose appearances are not subject to copyright, such as centaurs, giant spiders, etc. BreathingMeat (talk) 21:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Derivative works only applies to the Wikimedia Commons, Misplaced Pages's relevant policies and guidelines are Misplaced Pages:Non-free content, Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria and Misplaced Pages:Image use policy. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

That's encouraging. However, there is no free use rationale on Image:Mindflayer.jpg (which will presumably fail its contention to enter the Wikimedia Commons) so it remains in danger of deletion until it gets a free-use rationale. So the question is: Can we meet the Significance criterion for non-free content use in the case of using a derived-work image to illustrate a Wiki article on a WotC copyrighted monster? Does anyone want to suggest a sample free-use rationale? Which image copyright template should we be using? BreathingMeat (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

-removed indent-(I made the image into a link because of its size. I hope you don't mind.) -Drilnoth (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

As an idea, would a combination fair-use/free license make the images work in Misplaced Pages (although not Commons)? Something like on Image:Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures 2.jpg? -Drilnoth (talk) 02:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The minis image uses the "Non-free 3D art" template, so fair use justification in its case would depend on the articles discussing the artworks illustrated, rather than the characters they represent. Because the articles for which fair use is claimed discuss the use of the actual figures as part of playing games, I guess fair use applies. But unless our monster articles were about the artworks themselves (or the artist who produced them) then I don't think any of the "Non-free Art" templates can apply. BreathingMeat (talk) 01:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Great news! I think that I've found a way to use even official Wizards/TSR images to illustrate monsters and such: {{Non-free character}}. I first saw the rationale here; do you think that it would work? -Drilnoth (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The danger with that is the Respect for commercial opportunities aspect of non-free content use. If we use WotC images to illustrate Wiki articles, that could be seen as damaging WotC's ability to use their artwork as an inducement to visit the official websites and/or buy their illustrated sourcebooks. I think that's a fair objection. BreathingMeat (talk) 01:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That would not preclude us from using non-commercial fan-art, though. BreathingMeat (talk) 02:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That is a fair objection, although I think that we should present that tag to whoever would be working with the Mind Flayer and Beholder images to request undeletion and to request that they be left in Misplaced Pages (since they probably would be deleted in Commons). Any idea who that might be? -Drilnoth (talk) 02:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Try Maxim. Good luck - This may be our best chance. BreathingMeat (talk) 03:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

He's asking for a fair use rationale, could someone familiar with Misplaced Pages's fair use policies and guidelines handle it? -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look. -Drilnoth (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It's been restored. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What about the use of miniatures from the art in online stores? That's widely distributed already, and could illustrate a number of monsters. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I expect that art is used by permission of WotC for the purpose of selling minis. BreathingMeat (talk) 03:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Gavin Alert

Gavin has been adding Notability tags to articles again. I've been replacing them with Importance tags whenever I see them (hooray for the public watchlist!), but I thought that you might all want to know. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - a brilliant idea you had there. Thanks for catching those - no idea if he will be satisfied with the {{importance}} tag rather than the {{notability}} tag; they say essentially the same thing, although the latter has a much harsher tone to it. BOZ (talk) 16:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added a comment to his talk page. Also, the watchlist isn't my idea; I saw it at WikiProject The Simpsons when I was working on designing the new main page. So far it's made it really easy to catch bad edits by various people (I reverted blatant vandalism to Fighter (Dungeons & Dragons) thanks to it), but the credit should really go the WP:DOH, not me. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, it was a good find then. ;) BOZ (talk) 16:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you beginning to experience the fun we've all had over the past year? ;) BOZ (talk) 17:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew what fun you had even before now. Personally I think that Gavin is making it more difficult for us to add reliable sources by putting a timer on the articles, and I've told him as such. Any help on his talk page would be nice. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he's one of those people who agrees with everything on this page. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I really don't know any proper way of dealing with him; getting him to agree to mediation was the only effective method, and that just stalled him for several months. Every argument you, I, or anyone else I've seen has been deflated by his circular logic, so arguing with him has proven pointless. Even if you can somehow get him to see where you're coming from, he'll just change his argument around to something advantagous to his POV. BOZ (talk) 17:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me know when you've had your fill of circular conversation. Oy vey. :) BOZ (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

-Split into subsections for ease of readability-

Administration

NOTE: The following is simply speculation and, at this time, I do not want it to happen. I am simply stating a possible outcome of the situation. "If he continues like this, administrator intervention might be possible because he has disrupted the project when we were just about to start work. Maybe ban him from editing D&D articles?" -Drilnoth (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If you check out the talk page archives here, you'll notice that there was a strong sentiment to take him to the Arbitration Committee rather than attempting mediation. I am extremely hesitant to jump into such a thing, but if he continues to be disruptive to our project and how we're trying to improve it, I think that's an option we may wish to explore. BOZ (talk) 17:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I, too, would not want to need to do that, but I feel right now like I can hardly leave the computer because he'd pounce on all the articles I've been trying -honestly trying- to fix. That really can't go on for a week or more. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Try over a year and see how you feel. :) BOZ (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't imagine. We've already generated 1,481 words of non-encyclopedic text on Gavin's talk page, and that's in just one hour. 1,481 words that could probably have cleaned up three D&D articles. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like Gavin's offline now... now is our time to strike! Clean up as many D&D articles as you can before time runs out! ;) -Drilnoth (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL - good luck. :) BOZ (talk) 19:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want a topic ban for Gavin, take it to AN/I; but, as BOZ notes below, I don't have much net access at the moment and thus don't have the time required to read over the offenses. -Jéské Couriano 19:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding now even if you don't have much access... I hope that you get it back soon. Anyway, BOZ, take a look at Yeth hound (Dungeons & Dragons). Then look at it before my massive edit. It only took about half and hour, too; we can keep doing that IF Gavin lets up a little bit. -Drilnoth (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Got it - it now looks as if I would have done it myself. :) Of course, it was pretty close already... BOZ (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Jeske Couriano

One option, there is an administrator (Jeske Couriano) who felt both that Gavin was a problem, as was anyone simply removing the notability templates. If you explain to him what you have been doing, he might just see it your way and come help out. And then he might not. :) BOZ (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip; I've asked him. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like he is bereft of internet for the moment. BOZ (talk) 17:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Points at the reason I reverted anyone wholesale-reverting notability templates -Jéské Couriano 19:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow, really, Jarlaxle turned out to be Grawp? Man, that's a doozy. Is he still giving you trouble? If Jack Merridew comes back, I don't expect Grawp to let up on him either. BOZ (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

All he's doing now is whipping eunuchs into a frenzy against everyone who dared block him, so I don't think he's going to bother Merridew (at least for a little while). -Jéské Couriano 19:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Dan Willis

The Dan Willis discussion just exploded again. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The Dan Willis dispute has been resolved. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

For now, at least? ;) Only to be replaced by numerous others... BOZ (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Umm... not just for now. Another person came in and, point by point, explained why Gavin's viewpoint was valid, and I agree. I had just needed a real go-through of all of the sources so that I could understand the opposing view. So, although logically I think that Dan Willis is notable, according to WP guidelines I now understand why he isn't. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, from a purely detached viewpoint (and having spent much time in WP:AFD) I can definitely understand Gavin's perspective. It is just an unfortunate fact that D&D (and other RPGs) don't get a lot of independent coverage.—RJH (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

We are talking about a living person in the Dan Willis article. I understand, but don't agree with, his point of view on some D&D articles, but I don't understand his PoV with Dan Willis. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The case for notability seems a little marginal, at least at present. If he was a teacher I don't think he'd meet the average professor test used at AfD. It's possible he may become more notable in the future, but that's neither here nor there.—RJH (talk) 18:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

FYI

For whatever it's worth, you may wish to note this discussion. (Scroll down.) - jc37 01:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Kermit the Frog is not a fictional character? What? O.o shadzar-talk 03:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Apparently. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth

For all parties involved (or not involved for that matter) I'd suggest reading (in no particular order, and with no insult, slur, or otherwise intended for any editor here, there, or elsewhere) this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. --Craw-daddy | T | 00:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Amusing because it's all true. Thanks.—RJH (talk) 17:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Dungeons & Dragons deities

The entire collection of the Dungeons & Dragons deities articles, including all the lists, articles and categories really need an overhaul. Most of the articles are ripe for AfD I am afraid and most, and lets be honest here, don't really need a page. I am going through all the pages here over the next few days with the goal in mind of making them easier to read, notable and combine where I can. If anyone has an opinion or a wish for thses pages, please mention it here. I am not sure what my ultimate timeline will be but I would like to have something in place in the next few weeks. Web Warlock (talk) 14:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I was working on them for a time (you can see the results in Elf deities, Dragon deities, Goblinoid deities, Dwarf deities, Orc deities, Halfling deities, Gnome deities, and Giant deities), but I've taken a break because A) the work was starting to get a little tedious, and B)I was working on the new D&D main page project, not to mention that C) Gavin came back. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I noticed. In fact it was the work you did on the various sub-races that got me thinking of combining some of the others. Maybe a table like approach like what BOZ is doing for the all the monsters.Web Warlock (talk) 14:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe... or maybe organizing them by setting, alignment, or something similar so that we can keep the full descriptions (that's why I did it that way with the demihuman and monstrous deities; a list wouldn't be able to contain nearly that much information). -Drilnoth (talk) 15:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I can live with that. :) I prefer to see everything get its own page, but that's in a perfect world. In the interests of preserving information, combining the weaker ones into a more cohesive whole is probably the only workable solution. BOZ (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would be nice to have everything have its own page, but I think that merging, then working on adding references and expanding the sections, then splitting them back out would make sense. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I am just one voice, and let me preface with saying again, I don't really like the game 4th edition to play, and don't like what it does to us here working on this project either. Just remember that "setting specific" died with 4th edition as the material is all made interchangeable now, so any article will need to represent that in some way without bias towards older edition. So splitting by setting shouldn't be a problem so long as each split group of gods states which are in 4th, and that the cosmology of 4th does not really separate even settings deities. (or we could all just ignore 4th edition and act like it never existed for the purpose of wikipedia? didn't think anyone would buy that one.) shadzar-talk 15:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Shadzar, I'd be happy to just ignore 4th edition all together. ;) -Drilnoth (talk) 16:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(de-indent) At the moment I have no particular plan other than seeing that these articles are going to be ripe for someone to start spamming tags all over them. I am not in favor of alingment, since that changes between editions (see Grumush. I am not in favor of editions, since that spans too much territory (all those 2nd ed FR gods), in the end it seems published settings (which I can point to for "real-worldlieness") might be the best bet. The issue of course becomes when do D&D gods end and Greyhawk god begin? I say keep D&D gods generic with information about gods in-general, and then point to the lists of campaign specific gods. Web Warlock (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do would be to maybe have the 3E-core gods separate somehow, and the Greyhawk gods on their own page with a link to the 3E-core page. For example, on the Greyhawk page, we would see a link to the 3E page for Cuthbert and Boccob, or whatever. BOZ (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This came up a while ago. As far as I'm concerned the entire lot should be rolled into list of Dungeons & Dragons deities right now and spun out only if sufficient secondary sources are found which deal with the subject from a real-world point of view. There is basically no material at all in Elf deities of this type, for instance. I appreciate that ~10 articles full of fancruft is better than ~80, but I'd rather have one article with a potential for improvement to GA/FA than lots which don't. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. Still doing a lot of reading now. Web Warlock (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps out of naivety I have to ask: what is the purpose of this list? Right now it mainly looks like a series of redirects to other pages, which may or may not survive the notability culling process. Is the goal just to provide a set of names? Wouldn't it be of interest to instead to describe the pantheons and each of the deity's place within? I.e. what the deity's alliances and conflicts are; which are good or evil. &c.—RJH (talk) 23:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

We plan to have more complete information, more like what's in Elf deities. Right now, there's a lot of stuff to work on and that isn't necessarily the highest thing on the project's list, but whatever we do it will not just be a list of names. -Drilnoth (talk) 23:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - a list of names has a very dubious encylopedic value. BOZ (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Great, thank you. It might also make sense to expand the pantheon information in the campaign setting pages (where they meet notability requirements), such as the Faerûnian pantheon on the Faerûn article.—RJH (talk) 16:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Greyhawk articles

Hey there. I found a whole bunch of articles that had the {{WikiProject Greyhawk}} template, but not the {{D&D}} template. I started adding the D&D template to them yesterday, and I'm going to continue now, just FYI. 71.194.32.252 (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Whew! All done... for now. Expect more soon (but not tonight)! 71.194.32.252 (talk) 02:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Cool, added them all to the watchlist. BOZ (talk) 05:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Template, take 3

I, personally, have come to the conclusion that a single giant template would be better than two. Does anyone think that it still needs some work before use? Should we scrap the idea altogether? Here's what I have right now:

User:Drilnoth/D&D Navbox template idea

-Drilnoth (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Would it be wrong to have three different templates? The two smaller ones you've created for those it would best apply to, and the larger one for topics with a broader range? Otherwise, I'm fine with the larger template for all articles - for one thing, when collapsed it's still a lot smaller than most of the templates we have floating around now. BOZ (talk) 20:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that it would make the navbox situation more confusing to have two or three templates than what we already have, because each template would cover a wide range, not include some major topics, and not be associated specifically with the article in question. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Them I'm fine with one big'un. :) BOZ (talk) 20:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay; I'll just tinker with it a little, create a page in the Template namespace for it, and start using it in articles. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Done! Check out {{D&D navbox}}. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the templates section of the project page. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way to do a tabbed pane template?—RJH (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure quite what you mean by that; there is some documentation which might be what you're looking for at the bottom of the template description, but if its not just let me know. -Drilnoth (talk) 01:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I meant something like the tabs along the top of this wikipedia view (or like a tabbed browser or dialog) with a tab for each subject and the contents underneath. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any example of that implemented in a wikipedia template, so perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part.—RJH (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha; I'll see if I can figure something out. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

DDM major news update

Today WotC annoucned the plans to allow a fan group to take over the DDM skirmish game in order to keep it alive. I have added a small bit of information to the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Game article, and a link to the news from the WotC site, but someone better suited may want to fix it up to be proper for the encyclopedia, as this is a major step from any game company to give the fans control of ANY of their games, and for such a major industry leader, and one of the industry leading games as well, this deserves some special attention. shadzar-talk 21:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Awesome! I'll update the minis game page sometime in the next few days unless someone else gets to it first! -Drilnoth (talk) 21:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Baldur's Gate articles

Just to let everyone know, someones been going through Baldur's Gate (series) and Minsc and removing quite a bit of content because of poor citations and/or being in-universe. I'm not sure if anyone here might want to take a look or not (the video games are really outside my gaming knowledge, so I don't want to mess with them). -Drilnoth (talk) 02:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Gavin's reverting {{importance}} tags.

• For the current draft go to this page. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And making them into {{notability}} tags again. This needs to stop. I think that we should give him a warning and then either get a RfM or file a more formal complaint. Opinions? -Drilnoth (talk) 13:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. He's married to the {{notability}} template; time for a divorce. BOZ (talk) 14:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Let's make sure that the warning is right before giving it to him. I've created a subpage here where I'll soon put a draft version of a warning, and then other people (except Gavin!) can tinker with it until it looks good. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Done with my draft. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we get that signed like a petition, too? I don't have time to study it for the next couple of hours or so, but you better believe I will. BOZ (talk) 15:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I'll add something to it. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I made a few minor changes. How about a mention of his frequent assuming bad faith, and accusations of COI or vandalism? It's best to be as explicit as possible, preferrably with examples, since he usually denies any accusations laid against him, and in fact often tries to turn it back around on other people. Also he does not seem to accept compromise. No need to mention deletions, since he hasn't done any since he came back to haunt us. BOZ (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I've just added two more points to the draft. And regarding deletions; the {{notability}} tag will call for deletion; it just won't happen as quickly. Therefore, he is still nominating articles for deletion, just in a different way. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, although I think those two points could probably be shortened and maybe even be merged into one; let's face, it Gavin is probably not in the least bit bothered about the prospects of a D&D article being deleted. I'll have a look at that. BOZ (talk) 17:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

He probably wouldn't, but it will be a valid argument if a formal complaint is needed, and having told him will make that point stronger. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that: If it comes down to being a formal complaint, I think that those are both valid but distinct points which should be considered. Having told him about those points before a formal complaint will make their impact on the complaint's results stronger because he would have seen them and not stopped afterwards. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, those were some good updates you made. It looks like I managed to forget an "appears to" (I tried to write from an "this is what we think, but it may not be true" point of view, but that's difficult). Thanks for fixing it. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I've just remembered a few more reasons which I hadn't included earlier; for now I need to take a short break and get back to Real Life, so I'll add them in a few hours from now. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. If you don't mind too much, I'd also like to take a stab at reorganizing it... at present, it rambles a bit, but some reordering might bring more focus. BOZ (talk) 18:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Go right ahead. It's a draft for everyone to edit. Actually, I was just going to add a few more points and add more examples; maybe you should reformat it after I'm done. -Drilnoth (talk) 18:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

-removed indent-Much better! I was just about to start finding examples, but there's just too much to look through and it's all just him changing around tags, defending illogical tags, and turning people's comments back around on them. I can't stand it. -Drilnoth (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I figured it made sense to put your last points first, since they seem to get to the heart of the issue, so why not go for that right away? I'll leave it alone for awhile; go ahead and do what you gotta do. :) BOZ (talk) 19:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with not providing examples is that he'll probably demand that you do so, or that we're simply just making things up about him. He plays the wounded heart so well - you should have seen how he first reacted when he realized we were bringing up the RFM... I believe he used the term lynch mob. ;) BOZ (talk) 19:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. Well, any examples you can find will help; I wasn't around before the RfM so you probably know more about what was going on. I'll see what I can do, too. -Drilnoth (talk) 19:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No prob - I wish we had done that some time ago. It may not be necessary, but it will probably become a point of contention. Let's not spend a ton of time on that, but if we spot something it needs to be added. For example, those two or three articles where he added the notability template today where there was already an importance template would be a good idea. BOZ (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest also looking through his contributions on WT:NOT, WT:FICT, and WT:N in regards to his absoluteness stance on fiction and notability - even though this is geared towards D&D, his general stance tends to lead to little useful discussion e.g. this discussion on lists of fictional animals. I certainly appreciate that he has an opinion of what he thinks WP should be like wrt to fiction, but he's unmovable in trying to achieve consensus. --MASEM 19:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of that actually, but not sure if we needed to bring it up. Masem in particular has been a target of Gavin's ire on the notability talk pages. BOZ (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC) and also I would review the discussion from the Ep&Char2 arbcom case and identify the recommendations in general for editors to be aware of. Gavin wasn't a listed party, but the fait accompli arguments reasonable apply here. --MASEM 19:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I might have been a bit out of line in that list of fictional animals discussion, but was frustrated about what you mention his concrete stance in regards to Kermit the Frog in particular. :( shadzar-talk 20:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added some examples, with more to come. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Something you may not have ever seen Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Gavin.collins shadzar-talk 20:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I've seen that and will add it to the examples shortly. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The RFM should provide a number of leads as well, just as the RFC. BOZ (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Please be aware that activities in formal mediation should not be used as evidence in conduct complaints. MedCom cases may be pointed to as indications that dispute resolution was attempted and the outcome may be discussed, but please be aware that the mediation policy prohibits the use of communications during mediation "as evidence in other dispute resolution or similar discussions, including (but not limited to) arbitration and user conduct requests for comment". Vassyana (talk) 21:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - that's important to remember. Actually, there was very little inside the actual RFM case that would be useful here; the parts that would be useful are the links to prior debates. I should have been more specific, but that's what I was looking for. :) BOZ (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And thanks for the advice to us on your talk page. BOZ (talk) 22:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

-removed indent-I'll take look at that, too. The RFC only has a few usable examples, because that was when he being disruptive to WikiProject Role-playing games; we can only use D&D examples for this complaint. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the RFC was started when he was focusing on all RPG articles; it was continued for some time, and comments were being added long after he really got going on D&D. BOZ (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Anyway, why don't you take a look at the draft; there's 13 or so very appropriate examples, and more can be added. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It's an excellent start. I know I've said it before, but good work. ;) I'll invite a few others to come and comment. BOZ (talk) 21:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

User_talk:Gavin.collins/Archive_5 Don't forget to check out all 80 or so examples form this page to see which are D&D related as well the rest of his archived talk pages. I made a small edit in your draft so it didn't seem to sound like some sort of threat. shadzar-talk 21:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference tip and the modification. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Gavin's just tagged a few more articles, and has also asked why {{importance}} is better than {{notability}} at Talk:Die Vecna Die!. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think the question is why am I reverting importance tags, its why are you changing the notability tags to importance when there is no evidence that this topic Die Vecna Die! is notable at all. I think replacing the notability templates is a waste of time, and questionable if you don't offer any evidence of notability. in all honesty, I think the notability template is reasonably justified. The only reason I can think of for their removal is athe addition of reliable secondary sources. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• It would be less of a waste of time if you just used the {{importance}} tag in the first place. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
• As to how it is notable, a google search (yes, that's not a valid excuse. Just bear with me) for "Die, Vecna, Die!" came up with about 22,900 results. Surely you understand that the topic, then, IS NOTABLE, even if the article does not demonstrate its notability. Therefore, the {{importance}} tag is more appropriate. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Just thought I'd point that that first, a Google "search" is not a valid excuse. Google picks up hits, not context. If you don't know the context then you don't really have an idea of whether or not it supports the idea of notability. Second, when you don't use quotation marks (like I assume you didn't Given my quick search) Google will search for every individual word listed. That means that instead of searching for "Die, Vecna, Die!" it will search for that, plus "Die", "Vecna", "Die Vecna", and "Vecna Die", because when you are vague about your search it exhausts all options. When you do search for just that phrase, it only comes up with 430+ hits - hardly the 22,000 you got initially. Also, when you do a web search you got the junk of the intervet. That means you get fansites and other unreliable sources. Now, when you do a Google News search (like this one) or a Google Scholar search (like this one - quick note, the single scholar source indicates that it didn't locate the exact phrase, so that doesn't even count) or finally a Google Book source (like this one), you get a better understanding of what might be notable. If you want to argue that Google searches show notability, then I would argue that they can also show lack of notability (and my 4 searches through web, news, scholar and books would suggest that Die Vecna Die isn't that notable). Now, let me explain why searching is not a valid excuse. Google doesn't show everything, and depend on where you are searching from will depend on what you find. If I'm using a German search engine, I might actually find more information than using one located in North America (yes, it does actually make a difference). Thus, since Google searches are not valid evidence of notability (though, it does help you get pointed in the right direction, sort of like how IMDb can help point you in the right direction but isn't a reliable source that we can or should use), one cannot definitely say that having a lot of hits, or having no hits, is proof that a page should or should not exist. 16:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• I not saying is non-notable topic (which can't be provien), I am just saying that there is no evidence in the form of reliable secondary sources cited in the article to show that it is. --Gavin Collins (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Then if people are reverting your tags, maybe you should go back through them and put the correct tag on for a change, rather than reverting the removal of notability since you acknowledge the notability tag was incorrect when you put it on the article. ALSO the importance tag, when read by someone viewing the article, actually includes and states the notability of the article is in question, but doesn't have that threat that makes it seem like the person including the tag is trying to get the article deleted. shadzar-talk 22:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• The importance tag does not mention sourcing. This is key to establishing notability, which is why the notability cleanup template is the right template. --Gavin Collins (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• From the {{importance}} template documentation: "Use this template when the subject probably is notable enough, but the article fails to establish notability." Are you stating that the tag does not mention "sourcing" because it doesn't actually have the word "sourcing" in it? You know that "establish notability" and "sourcing" are pretty much the same thing, right? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 06:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I support this effort as Gavin Collins has done absolutely no good, and refuses to use the {{importance}} tag instead of the {{notability}} tag despite many, many explanations of why this is the better option. He does not seem to understand that Misplaced Pages is not on a timeline, and that sufficient time must be given to make the requested corrections. He has been told multiple times that the number of people working on those articles is very small, yet he persists in tagging hundreds of articles knowing there is no way those involved in working on the articles have any possible chance to address the issues raised before he or someone else tags them for deletion. He has shown almost nothing but bad faith in his time here, and I have yet to find a productive edit he has made. ···日本穣 22:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Gavin, a few points. Firstly, many of the articles you have tagged with {{notability}} also have {{primarysources}}. A combination of {{importance}} and {{primarysources}} should convey the same message to readers as the {{notability}} tag itself. Secondly, I think that we should try to come to an agreement without active conflict, so I have a proposal: You stop tagging articles while the WikiProject and yourself discuss the issue more peacefully in a user subpage. That way, there are not active edits being made which aggravate the D&D group and which will only make them fight more strongly, and it may give us a chance to come to a consensus more easily than having discussion on ten different talk pages does. In this discussion, I would hope that all participants act civily and try their best to understand the other side's point of view. Neither side should adamantly defend their position; instead we could work together to come up with a solution that is suitable for both yourself and the project. Gavin, BOZ, Web Warlock, Nihonjoe, Shadar, everyone else, what do you think? -Drilnoth (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Although we've been through this before on the RFM (and came back to where we are now as soon as the RFM was closed), I've always been a pessimistic optimist. ;) Sure, I'll try that if Gavin is willing to do so. BOZ (talk) 23:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Great; I'm hoping that perhaps, without RFM pressure, the discussion might go a little better. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry...did Gavin really argue that Kermit the Frog was not a fictional character? Wow. So...according to the archives on Gavin's user page (actually very interesting reading, if you're looking for good material for the draft I'd look at these frustrating discussions: ), there seem to have been multiple attempts to get Gavin to move on and stop editing D&D-related articles (up to and including an RfM). Unfortunately, a few editors (especially Grawp and his puppets) set about on a campaign of harassment, which seemed to steel Gavin's resolve (stiff upper lip, perhaps?) to continue to focus his attention on tagging RPG-related articles. It looks like the community consensus is that Gavin's edits are not helpful, and unwanted. Certainly, it appears that no one in the D&D WikiProject wants Gavin's assistance. Other than working on the kender article, Gavin has added absolutely no content to D&D related articles (even those that are notable). I honestly don't know why Gavin continues on this crusade, but I think we can all agree that all D&D project members want him to go away. Anyhow, best of luck with this. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 06:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Baah, I second the D&D WIki not wanting or needing his "help." His history prevents me from honestly assuming good faith. His edits are neither wanted nor immprove the articles he's editting, though if not for the latter I could overlook the former. As it is however, I have to conclude that he has some sort of negative bias towards D&D and that his true goal is to eliminate all articles releated toward this. What's more, I think he has clearly been more interested in truth than fact. I think he should be banned from editting any D&D related articles, indefinately. Kairos (talk) 12:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

THAT was not cool. You shouldn't talk about a ban like that; at least, not yet. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, at the moment no one is going to seriously look at a topic ban for him, even if most of us would like to see him move on, already. BOZ (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Get over yourselves

The entire tone of this thread (and the others, recently) is wholly inappropriate. If you disagree with an editor's position, raise an RfC or take it to ArbComm. Do not invent your own procedures (such as the WIP rebuke), and do not sit around on a WikiProject talk page whining about it. It is highly unlikely that your actions will be seen in a favourable light by the community as a whole. Speaking as someone who has done quite a bit of work in the D&D domain in here, but also as someone who is generally opposed to fancruft proliferation, I have to say that while the editor in question may have behaved in an inappropriate manner I broadly agree with the actual intention.

Anyone who thinks that persecuting this particular editor is going to earn the D&D project an exception to our general rules on notability is sorely mistaken, and a far better use of everyone's time would be to continue the work discussed earlier in the year in directly addressing notability in articles and condensing / merging / deleting those which could not establish notability to the satisfaction of our guidelines. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I agree with you; quite a few of the D&D articles do need to be merged, and many more need serious work. The main problem that I, personally, have with Gavin's recent actions is that he isn't giving us the time needed to effect the cleanup. Additionally, anytime that we do try to fix up an article, he rebukes our every arguement as to how the changes fixed the article and continues to tag the articles. At the very least, right now, the only thing that I really want is for him to stop using {{notability}} and using {{importance}} and {{primarysources}} in their place. That's it. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Drilnoth. That's the main concern I have is the manner in which is "helping". ···日本穣 18:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Chris, I appreciate where you're coming from, even if I don't agree personally. Other members of the project have in the past actually had very similar attitudes to Gavin regarding notability of many D&D articles and whether or not they should be deleted, such as Jeske Couriano and Percy Snoodle; however after interacting with him their opinions soured enough to strongly support the mediation effort we put out earlier this year. Percy, in fact, offered to help Gavin refine his approach, but I'm sure he could tell you himself how that worked out when they disagreed on very minor points. I don't know if you've had much interaction with Gavin personally or had a chance to disagree with him strongly about something, but your opinion of his methods might be different if you had. You'll notice that our written complaint, although an inappropriate approach as you have correctly pointed out, deals not with "we don't like the notability template!" nor do we try to apologize for the fact that most D&D articles lack apparent notability, but rather it deals with the tone of Gavin's interactions with project members since his involvement began over a year ago and his tone in general with any editor who disagrees with him. We don't seek an exemption to the notability guideline; whether we like the guideline or not, it's here to stay and we just have to deal with that. The issue with the {{notability}} template is that, unlike the {{importance}} template, there is that inherent threat of deletion built into the template; it is not an execution, but you can think of it more like being on death row, as a stay of execution until someone comes along to flip the switch. The way to deal with that is to find sources, and where that's not possible we will condense and merge in the mean time as we had been doing before Gavin came back. What we are asking is that Gavin give it a rest in the meantime, and assume a little good faith on our part. Although he may feel that we are persecuting him, I assure you that the rest of us feel it is the other way around (what's with the singleminded pursuit of only D&D articles when there are plenty of other genres out there?) and wish only to seek a way to be done with all the negativity. If Gavin is unwilling to change the way he interacts with us (remember, it's him seeking out D&D articles, not us seeking to interact with him), then these negative feelings may persist into perpetuity. And that would be a shame, because I had a lot more fun on Misplaced Pages when Gavin was busy on the notability talk pages. BOZ (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Boz here - while I've gained respect for Gavin, and I understand (I think) where he's coming from, the difficulty is that multiple notability tags which are then strongly defended against all arguments is that it damages the community. I think we tend to focus on the articles too much, to the cost of the people who write them. Misplaced Pages doesn't work becaue of the notability guidleines - it works because of editors and their willingness to volunteer their time to build content. So while Gavin may often be technically correct, the process by which he tends to make his points is damaging to the community who try to build the articles and who might be willing to overcome any problems with them. That aside, I also agree with Chris - the plans to come up with new, special "warnings" was horribly flawed, and I'm glad to see it die. In addition, the desire to fight for articles which really don't meet the current standards may be strong, but we should acknowledge that many articles Gavin tags really don't meet the standards, and should be tagged.

At this stage, it seems clear that Gavin's stance is well established, is unlikely to change, and, in many cases, it is technically correct - so I'm not sure that an RfC or similar will help, and I'm certainly not sure I would like that path. (Anyway, the best you could argue is disrupton). Thus if we are going to move forward, it will be through a mixture of ignoring his points (which I don't recommend), addressing them, or by tackling them from WP:NOTE and WP:FICT, (although I'm concerned that Misplaced Pages has too much inertia for real change in those areas).- Bilby (talk) 08:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

BOZ, you summed up my views perfectly. Bilby, I agree with you in that Gavin is, technically, correct in what he tags in many (but not all) articles. The problem, in my opinion, is not his tagging as much as his staunch and unwavering defense against any removal of incorrect tags and tags which are no longer needed due to cleanup. Technically, the {{notability}} tag is correct for many, but not all, of the articles that he puts it on; the problem with that is the "death row" clause. With only a few really active members left in the project, cleaning up, or even merging, articles would take long enough that some would start getting deleted. At this point, I think that the vast majority of project members agree that the articles need the cleaning or merging, and we will start working on that. Unfortunately, that is almost impossible with Gavin's continued difficulties and argumentative tone, especially when you consider just how much time the project has put into discussions like this one when they could be actually working on the articles. -Drilnoth (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

A new proposition

After reading Chris Cunningham's statement above, I've been thinking about other ways that could help solve this situation. I think that Gavin is trying to do the right thing, but just hasn't been going about it properly. In truth, articles such as Barghest (Dungeons & Dragons), Quori, and Ice Barbarians really shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages unless they are significantly improved. There are other wikis for primarily in-universe articles like that (including the PathfinderWiki (which also has information on converting material from Misplaced Pages), and a wiki for all things D&D (I'd provide a link, but the site seems to be down)).

Now, some in-universe articles, such as Beholder, Drow (Dungeons & Dragons), Drizzt Do'Urden, Elminster, Faerun, etc. definitely deserve a place on Misplaced Pages, as do (in my opinion) all articles about authors and artists, books and modules, and the game itself. My proposal, then, is that we start really working on fixing the D&D coverage; make deity lists with one or two sentence description similar to what BOZ did for monsters and redirect all but the major deity entries there, moving the other material to a more appropriate wiki. At the PathfinderWiki and D&D Wiki, there won't be any problem with the notability or in-universe design of the articles, and it will allow the WikiProject to focus more on what needs to be focused on: Articles about Dungeons & Dragons in the real world. Such a change would also need help from Gavin; something like an agreement that, once such a process begins, he stops putting tags on the articles that have been deemed as "important" without good reason. Many such articles are already tag-free because of their quality, but some (most recently things like Die Vecna Die!, Erik Mona and Paths of Darkness) would need cooperation between the project and Gavin to bring them up to a better quality, something which the tagging probably wouldn't acomplish. BOZ, shadzar, Web Warlock, Chris Cunningham (not at work), Masem, ColorOfSuffering, Gavin, Nihonjoe, everyone else, what do you think? -Drilnoth (talk) 14:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

From the standpoint of being the self-proclaimed expert on where notability stands on WP (self-proclaimed, if anyone can really say that...) this is very very reasonable. Most D&D elements are probably based only on primary sources, and having articles for each will weigh WP down, but there is no reason why 1-2 paragraph descriptions of these cannot be arranged into lists with redirects to help with searching, and the use of off-side wikis linked in via ELs to go for additional information. See what the Pokemon project did when it brought down the number of articles by merging an individual article for each pokemon monster into a series of lists, with only 4 (maybe 5?) individual pokemon notable enough for their own article. All that is perfectly within line. --MASEM 14:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've posted a notice of this new section on Gavin's talk page, but he has still been adding the {{notability}} tag to articles since then. I will continue replacing them until a logical conclusion is reached here. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

lists with one or two sentence description *cough* you mean "lists with appropriate length descriptions (mostly one or two sentances, except were longer is justified)", right? I really dislike length-prescriptive suggestions, which could discourage sensible and highly effective list creation. Masem is spot-on, there is no reason why list entries could not be longer if justifiable. In the most part, were the subjects are rarely used or talked about, this is unlikely, but we may come across information about the development of a subject, and a comprehensive list would be preferable to a minimal list linking off to loads of stubs. LinaMishima (talk) 15:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Yah, that's basically what I meant. I'm basically assuming that any D&D article that would deserve a longer description on Misplaced Pages would be worthy of having its own page, rather than being in a list. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like the D&D Wiki (Link) doesn't contain that kind of stuff; it's all either OGC or homebrew. -Drilnoth (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

That's good, then! :) I would personally prefer a more detailed list, rather than stub entries, that's all - and it makes any list look so much better! Interesting to hear of the D&D wiki not containing details of official material, we probably will need to converse with them regarding any content to be transwikied in that case, rather than just do it. LinaMishima (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This sounds fine to me. The only issue I see is getting Gavin to agree as this has been the sticking point in the past. If he wants to begin being actually helpful, then this sounds excellent. ···日本穣 18:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Gavin doesn't need to agree; the notability tags are perfectly justified right now. It is unlikely that any admin would summarily delete an article just because it had a {{notability}} tag on it, so why not just leave them be while the cleanup is done? Cleanup tags are not a death sentence, and this continual focus on getting rid of the tags isn't helping anyone. The tags will be unneeded if and when the articles they belong to can clearly demonstrate notability through discussion of the subject from a real-world perspective in mutliple independent sources. At that point there will be no controversy in de-tagging them. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The pattern of behavior in the past has been tag hundreds of articles while we try to make the changes on a few. Then come back and say "this article has been tagged for X months now, I am nominating it for AfD." We have been doing this dance a long time now. There are many tags though that are not justified. Given he tagging articles at the rate of dozens an hour at times it is impossible to determine how much reading he is actually doing. Web Warlock (talk) 19:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention the past RfC as well the Mediation basically went you must agree with Gavin and consensus doesn't matter. He refuses to work with people for the sake of Misplaced Pages. He feels it is his right that all articles must be "cleaned" within his timeframe, and all the discussion, edits/reverts, and time lost are only costing everyone including the foundation on the talk, while no articles can actually get worked on. Many have left various projects because of Gavin, because of needing time, and because of general Wikistress. Gavin's unwillingness to work with other editors rather than force his opinion over consensus is only causing Misplaced Pages to be a stressful place for many. That can not be the intent of this place, and what many would like to see end, so that decent articles CAN be improved, like a few recently reaching GA status that Gavin did NOT really take part in. The more Gavin does on an article, the less some others want to do on it because they feel that any effort will be thrown by the wayside by Gavin and his dictions of how Misplaced Pages should be done and on his time schedule. If Gavin would try to work with consensus. then the disruptive editing he starts over notability vs importance tags would end. As mentioned previously, both tags when in action state the article needs work for notability, but the importance tag does not carry his threat of immediate deletion is the article is not improve within his time schedule. That is my feelings on the matter, and why I personally have not done much on anything of late except what BOZ has asked for information on. I don't need Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages does not need me. But if I am going to be here to help work on articles for ALL readers, then I will not be dictated by some other nobody user like myself as to some timeframe or anything else. If an admin sets a timeframe something I am working on, then I will adhere to it, but Gavin has no such power, so his opinion to me is equal to that of any other registered user. Meaning to me that consensus of all editors involved in an article results in a majority wins type of situation. That is what consensus is, is it not? The decision agree upon by most or all parties concerned. Something which Gavin will fight anyone within the project about without regard, and refuses to actually participate in the project or gain knowledge of the subject matter for the articles, and those who have knowledge of the subject matter for articles he tags as disputed with when his tags are cleaned? I still feel he has an agenda, and just want him to find somewhere else to work on Misplaced Pages, so that the 1000+ articles on D&D can be fixed and watched for vandals to maintain them without him trying to rule over it, the editors, or the articles themselves as if he owns any of them (editors, articles, Misplaced Pages). shadzar-talk 19:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus, remember, is not about the majority, but rather the most reasoned argument. Unfortunately, as one can see over on Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction), Gavin really does not care for reason, only their own personal ideology. I completely agree with your other points, however, Shadzar, I have stopped editing wikipedia regularly for the exact same reasons. LinaMishima (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

just to butt in for a moment, but is this the sort of thing you're getting at, Lina? 71.194.32.252 (talk) 20:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Essentially, yes. Important backstory for this is Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise, which is the basis of the proposed revisions (as far as I can tell), and this and other community consensuses (including AfD) are disagreed with by Gavin, or interpreted in an obtuse manner. Generally he seems to have failed to respond to the specific points raised against him, although it may be true in this case that more could have been done to counter him back. LinaMishima (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Personally, all that I'm asking is that he stops using {{notability}} and stops arguing his viewpoint every time that someone tries to honestly clean up an article. The D&D articles do need immense amounts of cleanup; he can tag them with {{importance}}, {{primarysources}}, {{context}}, and whatever else for all I care BUT, once a member of the project believes that the article has been cleaned up he should not argue or attempt to restore the tag. The problem, in my opinion, is the timer on the {{notability}} and his unwillingness to give in even if a tag was obviously placed incorrectly or when someone has cleaned the article up. I also find it annoying that, as LinaMishima said, he does not respond to specific points, for example this. He also is much to quick to accuse other editors of bad faith, COI, etc. (which can be seen in that same article). I can come up with a list of places where he has done those two things if anyone wants evidence, but it could take some time to slog through the sheer number of arguments he's been involved in. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure all of those things are true, but it doesn't negate that a notability tag is not a death sentence for an article and that it is by no means clear that the Project is capable of self-policing at this stage. If there are indisputable examples of articles being incorrectly tagged then the issue should be raised on ANI - not discussed on here for weeks on end. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

-removed indent-Actually, the {{notability}} tag is a death sentence if it isn't removed. As to the project policing itself, I think that we need to be given the chance; we are well aware of the issues and will fix them in time. For example, I just merged Araumycos into Underdark, because Misplaced Pages really doesn't need a separate article on a giant fictional fungus. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it isn't. A {{prod}} tag is a death sentence - nothing happens if a notability tag is left on an article, save for it being potentially used as a rationale for deletion at a later date. It is trivial to contest an AfD by finding a source.

This argument that there isn't a time limit keeps coming up, and I can't understand why - if there's no time limit, then there is no requirement for Misplaced Pages to have an article on X at a given time. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

If you put it that way, I see your point. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

"if there's no time limit, then there is no requirement for Misplaced Pages to have an article on X at a given time", conversely, however, there is an energy limit - only so much content work will happen over a given period of time, and the deletion of articles forces energy by editors to be spent again in recovering. Similarly, the energy that must be spent in finding sources at AfD for out-of-restructure-process nominations is at the cost of effort that could be spent performing the restructuring. However, to be honest, you are entirely right - the {{notability}} tag is not a death sentence, and I was surprised that this entire matter was not handled more strongly by places like ANI already. However, in contrast to other article page tags, {{notability}} adds little useful information to the reader were it is used, when the article is sufficiently WP:V, yet suggests a far more negative approach should be taken to reading the article than when it is labelled with {{importance}}, so the upset here over Gavin's actions are understandable. The crux of this matter really comes down to how the notability template is often used to justify an AfD, and there exists 'hardcore' editors who tag and nominate for deletion, without ever looking to actually improve upon the articles themselves, even when this can be trivial (and see how technically one should do that before nominating for AfD). LinaMishima (talk) 22:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

And if you put it that way, I see your point. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

From their descriptions, it appears that a {{notability}} is not a death sentence, but it is also not a clean-up tag (it's more of an early step on the deletion path. Unfortunately, Gavin has been placing the notability tag on articles that actually need deleting/merging as well as legitimately notable articles. Clean-up tagging should never be indiscriminate, and the tags should certainly be used correctly when applied. In his edit summaries, he copy-pastes the phrase "there are no reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability," when the description of the {{notability}} tag states (in no uncertain terms): "Use {{Importance}} instead when the subject probably is notable enough, but the article fails to establish notability." He added tags to the following articles with clearly established notability: The Dark Elf Trilogy, The Hunter's Blades Trilogy, Paths of Darkness (I should know, I added the references myself). That's a clear violation of, not only the spirit, but the letter of the notability policy...and is not at all helpful. But the part that gets me is the hypocrisy -- he seems to place himself above doing and work or research then lectures others about not putting in any work or research . That's just bad form, in my opinion. I'd give this subject much more effort, but my DGAF sensibilities are slowly setting in...like they always do in the face of a long-standing dispute... ColorOfSuffering (talk) 02:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, if we have enough instances of placing (and especially reverting) to the notability template when it is an obvious case of using the importance template instead, we can bring that up to AN/I and see what they have to say about that. It's only been mentioned a few times already. :) BOZ (talk) 04:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, good idea. Here are a few: , , , , , , , , and...finally...the one that started it all...Gavin's first RPG-related edit: . Now, of course I'm being picky, the edits that are undoubtedly notable (and one could easily determine notability via a cursory Google search). Anyhow, that's it for me until after Thanksgiving. Keep fighting the good fight, chaps. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 08:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent examples, but it's worth mentioning that this project should only use D&D-related articles for examples of Gavin's edits; other articles should be dealt with by WP:WikiProject Role-playing games. So of the above links, only Paizo Publishing, The Icewind Dale Trilogy, Faerûn, and The Temple of Elemental Evil are valid examples, although they are good ones. -Drilnoth (talk) 12:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(deindent, change of discussion focus) As for going forward from here, I have to suggest that we simply ignore Gavin's tagging. Rather than spending editing time swapping tags back and forth, we should be forming an effort to restructure, merge, and source articles as appropriate. Once this is underway, prior Arbcom verdicts would suggest that a request that a moratorium on AfDs for the articles would be successful. Let's actually deal with the problem, rather than the politics (as the later is just depressing, and I'm sure has upset too many of us already) LinaMishima (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I would love to do that, the only problem being that then when the project tries to effect cleanup, Gavin typically responds by saying that whatever new sources were added are primary, even if they're not. Additionally, if the {{notability}} tags start being used as grounds, in and of themselves, for deletion, then that becomes a problem. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

1. If gavin blocks valid attempts to improve articles (reverting changes), then we switch to userspace rewrites and then move the revised version in place.
2. If he simply insists that the notability tag must stay, we let him play that game for a short while. Whilst it runs the risk of an AfD nomination, if we focus on specific article series improvements we should be able to eventually do a de-tagging that would be harder to contest.
3. By remembering that lists can contain detailed entries, we can eliminate much of the issue - any articles which seem to have weaker sources and are generally short can be moved wholesale into a list, which in an of itself can be far more notable.
4. If Gavin finds this list page (why do I get the feeling that they trawl the relevant categories just for this purpose?), we can if need be move it to userspace to work on if he causes problems with the editing itself, and otherwise he can simply be ignored until a later de-tagging pass.
5. If we already have an effort underway to improve articles, contesting mass AfDs shouldn't be too hard, and lone AfDs could be entirely thwarted.

Seriously, I think this would work quite nicely, we just need a plan as to what needs to be done LinaMishima (talk) 01:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The most recent example of the several "it's been tagged for notability too long so let's delete it" AFDs I've seen was Sharn (Forgotten Realms); note that the result was "keep", pending merge considerations. Note that at the time, there was a concerted effort on our part to merge less notable articles into a more cohesive whole; it may be wise to reassume this, per Drilnoth's prior model. Note that this will not actually deter Gavin; if you read his arguments on lists with elements of unproven notability, he feels that these should not exist at all and will likely pursue them. The advantage is that the community is more sympathetic to list/compilation articles on subjects of unproven notability than they are on single articles; in addition to that, it will mean fewer articles for us to maintain, and fewer articles on which we need worry about the dreaded "go ahead and delete me!" notability template. BOZ (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

As someone involved with the WP:FICT revisions, I am sadly aware of Gavin's dislike of lists (he even seemed to only favour single line bullet point lists, too). However, you are spot on - the community as a whole seems supportive of them, they can easily reach featured status, and the consensus seems to be to keep them. So yes, I think we should move on from this and resurrect the merging and cleanup process. LinaMishima (talk) 01:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. How should we plan what lists to make, an order of priority, etc.? -Drilnoth (talk) 02:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I've created a separate section for discussion regarding lists, below. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem with citing AfDs is that what often takes place is people suggesting a merger. Well, AfDs are for deletion, hence the name, and hence why they often end in "keep". BOZ is correct when they say that we are much more likely to approve of, and even suggest, list creation as a way of compromising with those editors that want individual articles for every character, episode, fictional element, etc. Unfortunately, not everyone is, and thus, you have editors that don't want any compromise (on both sides mind you), and will fight to the death to get it that way. We all have to realize that the people who live in the middle (who accept the compromise of allowing list articles of subjects of unproven notability) out number those on either side combined. We are the community, but we need to act like one if we want to make real change and stop all this bickering.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me)

The problem with "acting like a community" is that there are some that would prefer to act like a dictator to all and take all the time there is that people have to edit wikipedia, and force them into wasting it on AfD's and such rather than affecting corrections to articles. That is why earlier, I suggested we start to follow the procedures outlined in "disruptive editing" and when the warnings are not enough, then take the vandalism to administration for resolution so we CAN work on articles without the disruptive editing. shadzar-talk 16:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That won't solve anything. Look at all the crap that was caused when people were taking TTN to RfCs and other arbitrations. Not only did it degenerate into a bashing party against TTN (not condoning his actions), but it completely divided the community. Now, what we get is whenever someone does something we don't like we automatically want to take them before a board. You talk about disruptive editing, but the door swings both ways on that Shadzar, you know that. My suggestion is the passive aggressive approach. You want the time to work on articles w/out the disruption, then do it. Ignore what is going on behind the scenes of an article. Put in your 2 cents and then walk away and go work on the article. If the article gets deleted, save a copy of it in your sandbox and work on it there until no one can deny its existence. I created articles for Clark Kent (Smallville), Lana Lang (Smallville), Lex Luthor (Smallville), Lois Lane (Smallville), and rewrote Chloe Sullivan and Lionel Luthor. All of them I did in my personal sandboxes at my leisure, and when I put them in the mainspace (though they were not perfect) no one could challenge them. The same goes for when I created Characters of Smallville. There are always more peaceful solutions to these situations. The problems come when we get dragged into these debates that distract us for working on articles. Sometimes we have to admit that an article probably just does not deserve to have its own article, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be listed with detail somewhere else (see above Char. of Small. example). Stop trying to fight fire with fire, and just go grab a pitcher of water.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

While that may have worked for you for new articles you created, we are talking about existing articles, and ones in which no one editor has all the information on, nor the time to look all over 70 user spaces to find different versions. Look at the Gary Gygax article and you will see what resulted form the article being where everyone could find it and work on it together. So it wouldn't be that much trouble when creating new articles, but we are talking about articles that we are trying to work on in limited available time for the editors, but under one editors time schedule. I am also not talking about RfC because that and the RfM as far as I am concerned failed, even thought the Kender article was fixed over months of fighting for a few things, but the article is not really a decent article with just bland references as that one user would want them all to be with little context. I am talking the disruptive editing has gone on for over a year and is targeting one specific area of Misplaced Pages, and now it is pretty much just vandalism of the project as a whole. As such vandals should be handled accordingly. Check the disruptive editing section and you will note that all those things done are done by Gavin, and refuses to work with anyone. The only time any piece was had, was when he went to argue with people over the notability and BIO guidelines, and was in many cases, as usual, told he was wrong by admins. So something more substantial needs to be done. Giving him the Grawp treatment seems to be the only way to get anything done, since Gavin refuses to cooperate with anyone and push his own agenda by doing nothing by mass copy/paste tagging articles. Check his recent contributions and you will see many where he just copy/pastes tags, and then edits and reverts his own edits to get rid of some of the extra tags. This helps no one, no editor, no wikipedia reader, not the articles, not the Wikimedia Foundation with all the extra bandwidth/storage space for all the talk that has had to transpire to trying to get things done through his disruptive editing, and disruption of the D&D project. Which is why I equate it to vandalism, or some personal agenda in regards to RPGs or D&D, neither of which he has any knowledge about as he calls them just books, choose-your-own-adventure books, and cannot tell from the article about it that Kermit the Frog is a fictional character, and furthers that confusion with every article he tags. So AFTER you have read EVERY one of Gavin's edits/"contributions", then tell me something doesn't need to be done. shadzar-talk 18:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Before the main part of my discussion, I would like to say two things. A)Gavin's tagging is not vandalism, and should not be treated as such and B)A permanent ban is NOT the right answer. If anything a topical ban might be placed. Other than on those two points, I agree with you almost completely. We probably should do something because what he's doing IS disruptive editing (per WP:Disruptive editing#Signs of disruptive editing and WP:Tendentious editing#Characteristics of problem editors).

Now to deal with disruptive editing, see this. A request for comment has already been completed (and is viewable here), the discussion appears to have petered out before a consensus was reached. However, although the RfC itself did not reach a consensus, I think that the Misplaced Pages community as a whole has, with a decision that Gavin should stop. There are some opposed to that, and they have very valid reasons, but over the past year the sheer number of people who have found Gavin's editing disruptive would seem to indicate a consensus on the matter, and one which Gavin is quite aware of after all of the discussions that he has been in.

The next listed step is to add something here about the issue. Some administrators have already been involved in the situation, although there hasn't been a formal request for a review. Since I am relatively new here and have only been in the "Gavin discussions" for two or three weeks, I don't think that I'm qualified to really make a case, even though I've seen plenty of the results of his past behavior. If this is the avenue that needs to be pursued, then someone else should initiate it, although I will assist however I can. Also, I think that we should wait until there has been another tagging spree to do anything drastic like that. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I find that to be a copout. Chloe Sullivan and Lionel Luthor were existing articles. This is what Chloe looked like, and what Lionel looked like before I ever got there. I also rewrote Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers (Halloween) (here is what they looked like before I got there Jason and Mikey). So please, don't tell me that it cannot be done. Yeah, it could be difficult, but if it's easy then it isn't worth it. Being difficult isn't a valid reason not to do something. Also, I didn't hide the sandbox. I left a note on respective project pages letting people know what was going on so that they could help. Just because it is located in a sandbox doesn't mean that it makes it more difficult to operate on. Also, I didn't say you had to go immediately to a sandbox, what I said was if the page gets deleted you can work on it in a sandbox until it is ready to go back on the mainspace. If you a know a topic can conform to whatever guidelines and policies exist, but it gets deleted because it has yet to prove such a thing, then that's your perfect opportunity to work on it in a sandbox until it is ready. Do what you can while it is in the mainspace. Stop focusing on the events of the AfD, RfC or whatever is going on. Like I said, give your 2 cents and then go work on the article. When I come across an AfD, or some other dispute do you know what I see? I see editors spending all of their time bickering over whether the article really deserves to be there or not. They think they need to counter every single argument, and it's only doing a disservice to themselves, the article, and the community. What I have also seen is people working harder during an AfD to get an article up to shape and saving it because, before it could close, the involved parties retracted their statements because the article was "fixed".

To be frank, who the hell cares about a damn notability tag? From what I've seen in the community, no one. It isn't a death sentence. If you get prodded, or AfD'd, then care enough. If someone tags an article as not showing notability, then ask them to elaborate on what would help (ask for specifics) and then try and do what you can to satisfy the criteria. The tag is supposed to alert editors of the article to a problem with the page. You guys fuel the fire when you get into stupid edit wars about the existence of the tag. WHO CARES? You're right, it does nothing to help the reader, because the reader doesn't care. The tag most certainly helps editors, because it lets editors know that someone feels there is a problem with the page. Notability is clear, and there is no number of editors that can be used to just deem an article "notable". That isn't how it works. Though I don't agree with this mass tagging, I also don't agree with swapping out objective tags with subjective tags. Either you meet the notability guideline or you don't. If you do, then the article DOES NOT lack information "on the notability" of the subject. If you don't, then you cannot just say "this is notable, we just don't have the information to prove it". It doesn't work that way. If the subject is notable, then show it with information. Don't claim it is and then say, "but I don't have the info to back up my claim". 20:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

-removed indent- I just simplified it, and removed myself from this project. Youa re right. Who the hell cares about being a part of something for someone else to just come along and destroy and waste peoples time with, just like the entirety of Misplaced Pages in general. shadzar-talk 20:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Main page design update: Tabs

I've added tabs to some of the D&D project pages for easier navigation. Right now they probably won't be of much help, but I plan to create additional subpages in the future that they will be very useful for. -Drilnoth (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

List proposals

Per the discussion above, the project plans to create lists into which primarily in-universe stubs will be merged. This has already been completed for numerous monsters (thanks BOZ!), although those lists could use some work and the descriptions of monsteres lengthened. Additionally, some method of reorganization by name, type, etc. might be called for so that the same monster doesn't have multiple entries. I've already done this sort of thing with Humanoid (Dungeons & Dragons), Draconic creatures, and Undead (Dungeons & Dragons). The main articles that need merging are:

1. Monsters
2. Deities
3. Locations, primarily Greyhawk locations
4. Some characters from various settings (for an example, see Companions of the Hall)

Thoughts? -Drilnoth (talk) 02:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps one for authors and/or books which may not meet the requirements all by themselves? ···日本穣 02:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that a list for books should be present, which would include any relevant material on the authors - I fear a separate list for authors could run into issues with WP:BLP and WP:BIO LinaMishima (talk) 03:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good; those were the very things I was thinking of getting to. Those particular fictional aspects are the hardest to find sources for regarding notability, except for the most obvious cases. BOZ (talk) 04:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so what should we focus on first? -Drilnoth (talk) 12:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would take the order you've got as it is, I suppose, although some overlap here and there couldn't hurt. :) BOZ (talk) 12:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Monsters it is. So the next question: How should they be organized? Type? Edition? Setting? Name? And should they be formatted more like BOZ's lists or my compilations? -Drilnoth (talk) 13:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I have created a new project subpage (accessible through the tabs on the main page), where I hope we can list all of the actual articles that will be a part of the project. Basically, any article that should NOT be merged should be added to the list. This is seperate from the watchlist, which also contains redirects, categories, etc. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. :) As for monsters, why not start out by doing more of what you were doing before? I'm fine with "by type" for the moment, even if there is a distinct 3E-bias there. I like the compilation articles much better than pure lists, personally. :) BOZ (talk) 00:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing; I'll see how to make it less "recentist" (which was partially why I created Draconic creatures). -Drilnoth (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to post links on talk pages of articles that I merge things into so that there is easy access to the old talk pages if the ONLY information on the old talk page is the {{D&D}} tag, unless anyone has any objections. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)