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Question re:Arbcom appointments
I have a quick question, just for curiosity's sake. When you're examining the final tallies from ACE2008, do you place more weight on the standings when sorted by net support, %support, raw support (eg. support without considering oppose numbers), or some combination? D.D.J.Jameson 15:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I have traditionally looked at %support, and looked at the others carefully to see if they indicate anything particularly interesting or alarming. Another thing I have always looked at is %support by admins because if there is a major deviation between admin support and more general support, this could indicate a number of different kinds of problems. (For example: an external campaign by an activist group attempting to influence the election. For example: a rift between admins and some significant constituency of non-admin users.) As people often say "voting is evil" so what I am looking for is a consensus. And I'm most interested in a consensus of the thoughtful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Do you ever foresee yourself appointing a non-admin who garners a significant amount of support to the committee, or is non-admin status a deal breaker in your mind? To be candid, I ask because in my time here, I've grown to love this project, and would love to some day stand for election. However, I don't have a ton of interest in seeking the tools, so I was wondering if non-admin status was a deal breaker to the final arbiter of who is appointed to the committee. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Regards, D.D.J.Jameson 20:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is not likely to happen, and it would give me pause, but only pause. I don't see any reason why not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Would it give you pause simply because of the initial level of implied community trust that an RfA offers, or for some other reason? I'm very glad to notice, though, that you're not closed to the possibility, as one never knows which way this project's winds might blow. Thanks again for your time, as I know you must be an incredibly busy person. D.D.J.Jameson 21:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- It would just be pretty unusual, I think. I'd be curious why it happened. There are plenty of good reasons possible.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Would it give you pause simply because of the initial level of implied community trust that an RfA offers, or for some other reason? I'm very glad to notice, though, that you're not closed to the possibility, as one never knows which way this project's winds might blow. Thanks again for your time, as I know you must be an incredibly busy person. D.D.J.Jameson 21:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is not likely to happen, and it would give me pause, but only pause. I don't see any reason why not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Do you ever foresee yourself appointing a non-admin who garners a significant amount of support to the committee, or is non-admin status a deal breaker in your mind? To be candid, I ask because in my time here, I've grown to love this project, and would love to some day stand for election. However, I don't have a ton of interest in seeking the tools, so I was wondering if non-admin status was a deal breaker to the final arbiter of who is appointed to the committee. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Regards, D.D.J.Jameson 20:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting, thanks. I'm curious how you arrive at % support among administrators,since voters don't identify themselves by status.Woonpton (talk) 20:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Usually someone calculates this for me. It's really easy to find out if someone is an admin or not, so it is easy to compute this. Just FYI, traditionally there have only been extremely minor variations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would imagine whoever does it uses some faster version of
importScript('User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js');
- I would imagine whoever does it uses some faster version of
- Usually someone calculates this for me. It's really easy to find out if someone is an admin or not, so it is easy to compute this. Just FYI, traditionally there have only been extremely minor variations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- , script that detects if particular account has a certain userrights flag. MBisanz 21:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is disappointing that votes of users who concentrate on content and who have no desire to be administrators, may not be weighed equally with the vote of administrators. I hope that is not the result of your decision process. If it may be, I urge you to consider the implications of that and the message it sends, and rethink your views. Kablammo (talk) 21:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Now's probably as good a time as any other to put an end to the WP:NOBIGDEAL meme; the notion is becoming more outdated by the day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hear hear. Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am very disappointed to hear that Jimbo has such a hierarchical view of Misplaced Pages. I urge him to absolutely disregard adminship as a criterion for the assessment of community opinion. From the ground, the appearance is that the notion of "trust" cuts right across the non-admin/admin boundary. Tony (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- ...He just said that he double checks it in case there's some kind of confederate group who is trying to sway the vote in favour of an undesirable candidate. He never said anything that came near to stating that he gave more weight to admin votes.--Koji† 01:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think your interpretation of Jimbo's comments above is entirely accurate. I do assume good faith, and give him the benefit of the doubt. Tony (talk) 01:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's pretty obvious that there is something of a caste system on Misplaced Pages, although it is most probably something subconscious, which is why I think all long term users should go for RfA for the reason that they won't be treated as second-class citizens, in terms of blocks, among other things. A lot of people when they are discussing a certain AfD or whatever, will sometimes say things..."well this guy is a troll" or "this guy is an admin" etc. I think that a lot of people do subconsciously judge people on that status. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Tony. Jimbo specifically mentioned checking disparaties between "admin support and more general support". Why not disparaties between content contributors, long-term contributors, non-automated main space contributors, and others? (Or why not treat all qualified votes equally, which is certainly the presumption underlying a vote?) And to what extent will there be an inquiry into, or suppositions made concerning, the motivations of qualified voters? Kablammo (talk) 01:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I just re-iterated that. He said it was in the event of a large group of disruptive editors voteing in a manner intended to sway the %'s. Editors likley to do that would probably not have been made Admins by the community, and thus the abnormal % of admin support vs. regular support would make Jimbo say "Hey, maybe there's something going on here." and he would check. He never suggested that he would appoint a candidate and outrule regular editor's support just because the admin % was higher.--Koji† 01:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding your edit summary, I am not joking. I suggest we let Jimbo speak for himself on what he meant. Kablammo (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of course I did not mean that admin votes count more. I do not have a "hierarchical" view of Misplaced Pages. Koji's interpretation of my remarks is correct. Indeed, even in my original post, I indicated that one thing that might be indicated by a significant divergence between admin votes and non-admin votes would be "a rift between admins and some significant constituency of non-admin users". What I had in mind there was a situation in which the admins are for some reason becoming removed from the interests and needs of good editors who are not admins, in which case I might very well choose to dig deeper and look at candidates for elevation to ArbCom who got *high* support from ordinary editors but *low* support from admins. It is impossible to say in advance. And, in fact, as a practical matter, my checking of this figure has always been unnecessary - historically the deviations have been quite small.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me but why not just say it like it is. We have a large group of users who are quite obviously either being canvassed or collaborating off-wiki to rig the outcome. Many of these people are either directly or indirectly under ArbCom sanctions yet they are allowed to vote anyway. This isn't about admins vs. non-admins. It's about us declaring defeat when we let people game the system and don't sanction the (civil) POV pushers. What happened to the crackdown on those who keep good faith editors from editing mainspace by driving them off the project with theit exhausting tactics? You've promised on several occasions that there should be a zero-tolerance policy towards these things but very little is happening. What is happening now is the result of that inactivity. EconomicsGuy (talk) 11:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I presume that's a reference to the off-wiki campaign by Armenian and Iranian nationalists against the candidacy of Jayvdb, currently being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Possible ethnic block voting in ArbCom elections? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, yes. That's the immediate reason for my post but the underlying issue is much broader than that. Ethnic disputes are more visible and have more administrators such as yourself working on them but many equally troubling disputes don't. Some affected areas such as the economics articles are plauged by simular POV pushing and off-wiki coordination problems but recieve less attention. I assume that might be due to the difficulties that administrators encounter when trying to figure out what the dispute is about and that's understandable. Admins are not expected to be experts on any given subject. However, the point of my small rant above was that these people aren't simply lunatic vandals that can be reverted, blocked and ignored. They are intelligent and highly organized people, especially on the Internet. That's why I'm once again trying to raise Jimbo's awareness of this broader issue. I was hoping that the severity of the current situation regarding Jayvdb's candidacy was enough to make him take some time off and look into these issues because they affect large and important topic areas on Wikipdia including topics that aren't related to ethnic disputes. There's a consistent pattern of behaviour among these people and more support from above (such as Jimbo) is needed. EconomicsGuy (talk) 12:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- I presume that's a reference to the off-wiki campaign by Armenian and Iranian nationalists against the candidacy of Jayvdb, currently being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Possible ethnic block voting in ArbCom elections? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me but why not just say it like it is. We have a large group of users who are quite obviously either being canvassed or collaborating off-wiki to rig the outcome. Many of these people are either directly or indirectly under ArbCom sanctions yet they are allowed to vote anyway. This isn't about admins vs. non-admins. It's about us declaring defeat when we let people game the system and don't sanction the (civil) POV pushers. What happened to the crackdown on those who keep good faith editors from editing mainspace by driving them off the project with theit exhausting tactics? You've promised on several occasions that there should be a zero-tolerance policy towards these things but very little is happening. What is happening now is the result of that inactivity. EconomicsGuy (talk) 11:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of course I did not mean that admin votes count more. I do not have a "hierarchical" view of Misplaced Pages. Koji's interpretation of my remarks is correct. Indeed, even in my original post, I indicated that one thing that might be indicated by a significant divergence between admin votes and non-admin votes would be "a rift between admins and some significant constituency of non-admin users". What I had in mind there was a situation in which the admins are for some reason becoming removed from the interests and needs of good editors who are not admins, in which case I might very well choose to dig deeper and look at candidates for elevation to ArbCom who got *high* support from ordinary editors but *low* support from admins. It is impossible to say in advance. And, in fact, as a practical matter, my checking of this figure has always been unnecessary - historically the deviations have been quite small.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding your edit summary, I am not joking. I suggest we let Jimbo speak for himself on what he meant. Kablammo (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I just re-iterated that. He said it was in the event of a large group of disruptive editors voteing in a manner intended to sway the %'s. Editors likley to do that would probably not have been made Admins by the community, and thus the abnormal % of admin support vs. regular support would make Jimbo say "Hey, maybe there's something going on here." and he would check. He never suggested that he would appoint a candidate and outrule regular editor's support just because the admin % was higher.--Koji† 01:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think your interpretation of Jimbo's comments above is entirely accurate. I do assume good faith, and give him the benefit of the doubt. Tony (talk) 01:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- ...He just said that he double checks it in case there's some kind of confederate group who is trying to sway the vote in favour of an undesirable candidate. He never said anything that came near to stating that he gave more weight to admin votes.--Koji† 01:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am very disappointed to hear that Jimbo has such a hierarchical view of Misplaced Pages. I urge him to absolutely disregard adminship as a criterion for the assessment of community opinion. From the ground, the appearance is that the notion of "trust" cuts right across the non-admin/admin boundary. Tony (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hear hear. Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Now's probably as good a time as any other to put an end to the WP:NOBIGDEAL meme; the notion is becoming more outdated by the day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, a couple of days ago I noted a stark difference between this year's and last year's ArbCom elections. Wondered if you have a comment.
Last year two arbitrators ran for reelection:
- Rebecca (after a hiatus from the Committee) finished with 65.08% support.
- Raul654 (seeking immediate reelection) finished with 64.96% support.
Although neither finish was quite enough to gain reappointment, both were respectable showings.
This year three arbitrators have run for reelection:
- Sam Korn (after a hiatus) withdrew after one day at 51% support.
- Charles Matthews (seeking immediate reelection) currently at 20% support.
- Jdforrester (seeking immediate reelection) currently at 18% support.
Since Charles Matthews and Jdforrester currently tally a respective 157 and 170 opposes, it appears unlikely that a sudden surge of popularity will change the current trend significantly. What catches my eye especially is the tenor of the comments at their candidacies. As I blogged a couple of days ago when the pattern emerged, this might arguably be read as a referendum on the 2008 ArbCom.
It's true that being an arbitrator means making some decisions that will leave parts of the community unhappy, yet that doesn't account for the dramatic drop in support for returning candidates between last year's election and this one. And although some community members cite unseemly arbitrator conduct as a reason for opposing this year, one of last year's returning candidates garnered 65% support despite having accrued the only edit warring block on a sitting arbitrator in site history.
A long time ago I remember you characterizing ArbCom as the expression of community consensus. With both of the 2008 Committee's returning candidates garnering 4:1 opposition, do you still hold that view? Durova 03:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. Such is the nature of democratic elections. If people are unhappy, they vote for change. By chance, I had the opportunity met with Jimmy Carter today. He was voted out of office, extremely unpopular. He's shown himself to be a great man nevertheless. I think it is perfectly possible to lose an election with dignity and honor and go on to continue being great. Assuming current trends hold, I am sure that James and Charles will do the same. What I hope, too, is that the incoming Arbs have a good idea about just what the community wants, in terms of change, so that change can happen quickly and with great energy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo—thanks for your note. I think we're at one all round; I especially like your clause "so that change can happen quickly and with great energy"! <smile> Tony (talk) 08:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, Jimbo. Allow me to observe, though, that Carter's 'extreme unpopularity' still tallied 41% of the popular vote. There must be a better analogy for 18%-20% support--perhaps the Socialist Unity Party of Germany of late 1989? Durova 18:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- This comparison is fallacious. The United States uses a "first past the post" voting system, whereas we are using a traditional wiki vote. I don't think the percentages can be directly compared at all in an attempt to determine how popular or unpopular any given candidate is. A closer analogy (though still quite imperfect) would be Jimmy Carter's "approval rating" which dropped as low as 25% .--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, Jimbo. Allow me to observe, though, that Carter's 'extreme unpopularity' still tallied 41% of the popular vote. There must be a better analogy for 18%-20% support--perhaps the Socialist Unity Party of Germany of late 1989? Durova 18:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo—thanks for your note. I think we're at one all round; I especially like your clause "so that change can happen quickly and with great energy"! <smile> Tony (talk) 08:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
(butting in) hey, given we're talking about change and all, one of the statements I have made a few times is that I would hope I have time to keep on writing material and "mucking in" with the community. I believe this is a great way of (a) keeping one's finger on the pulse, and (b) fostering positive relations outside the somewhat sober atmosphere of arbcom (which may lead to a better sense of camaraderie and morale. Thus I would hope that maybe if there were a few candidates really close together, maybe and extra appointment or two may be considered...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Since my name has been brought up, a few comments. The election isn't over yet, and early votes do tend to be negative (i.e. those with beefs know more quickly than those who want to read over the statements and questions). James and I are garnering numerous negative votes aimed at the 2008 ArbCom, rather than ourselves, and the "new blood" argument is plain democracy in action anyway. We'll know more when another week has passed, and I'm contenting myself with seeing what is to learn from the votes against me (where, for example, it is an apparently vindictive vote based on my actions in a case, I know pretty much what to think, which is that the community wouldn't want me to think in electoral terms while acting as an Arbitrator). I had several reasons for standing again, and am glad to have put my views on the Hoffman case and Poetlister, neither of these being issues to duck. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is an appropriate place for your campaign Charles. Nor do I think it is appropriate for a standing candidate, while the election is still happening, to use this place in particular to seek to write off early opposes as being from editors who have beefs or have not read over the statements and questions. DuncanHill (talk) 11:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't strike me as inappropriate. This isn't some hallowed hall where a higher sense of propriety must be observed, and we shouldn't expect candidates or sitting arbitrators to refrain from responding when they're mentioned or issues in their work or candidacy described. You can comment here, anyone can, and Charles isn't in a special category of muted editors because he's a candidate. Avruch 14:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is an appropriate place for your campaign Charles. Nor do I think it is appropriate for a standing candidate, while the election is still happening, to use this place in particular to seek to write off early opposes as being from editors who have beefs or have not read over the statements and questions. DuncanHill (talk) 11:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Kerala conference's "keynote
This will be a memorable flop of your career, unless somebody wants to press criminal charges on you for keeping an extremely derogatory article on the Father of the Nation at uncyclopedia hosted by Wikia which makes money for you. This is also a pointer. 59.91.254.86 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Continous trolling by a banned editor User:Jobxavier. See also Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jobxavier ,Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Jobxavier , Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Jobxavier and Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jobxavier -- Tinu Cherian - 18:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)- Thanks Tinu. What's he on about?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- I can think of a few things he might be on. (Ba-Dum TISH -_-)--Koji† 19:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- (ec, re to Jimbo) He's taken exception to this. He's already banned for POV-pushing on India-related articles. – iridescent 19:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes. With his strong anti-xian POV pushing, he was/is really a headache with his scores of sock usernames and IP edits -- Tinu Cherian - 02:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Tinu. What's he on about?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's actually Kuntan, but a banned troll regardless. Khoikhoi 03:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, Tinu is wrong. I used to be Kuntan who got banned by Hindutvavadi admins ganging upon me. I love Misplaced Pages because of User:Dbachmann, User:Fowler&fowler, User:rudrasharman, the underlying philosophy conceived by Larry Sanger etc. PoV? I am against all sorts of nationalism and religious fervour (particularly against Hindu revivalism, since I belong to India). Dishonouring Gandhi is a crime in India. See and read this, and |this. Anybody can approach a magistrate and get a warrant for you for hosting that article, that image etc. I am not going to travel 400 k.m.s to do that and I don't have anything that strong against you, although your claim of being sole founder goes against the grain of my sensibility, but beware, there are fanatics here who are keen on such matters. I know of a sorry incident in my vicinity when a few people had to languish in jail on remand for a period for displaying the flag (a sticker iirc) in a butcher shop. 59.91.253.191 (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
"This will be a memorable flop of your career"?! Are you serious?! Go be a minor inconvenience somewhere else. Jimmy, this creature is, in my opinion, nothing but troube. It should just plain be ignored. Mature people, please do not feed it, that will only make it hungrier.JJ Cool D 23:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, for memorable flops, I've already done much better than that!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Jimmy, your calm and humorous disposition is admirable. JJ Cool D 22:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, for memorable flops, I've already done much better than that!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Is the VK album openly sold in the UK?
Someone told me this, but I would love to have direct confirmation from people we know and trust. I am not sure where to ask to get this question the widest audience, but I suppose people who watch my talk page will have some ideas and get the word out that I'm wondering. Best would be a huge set of images (posted, I suppose, to flickr) showing the album for sale.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo, I can't help but feel you are missing that this is a question of context. If the UK police raided my house and found the VK album in my record collection, I'm sure I'd be fine. If they found it among my pornography collection (assuming I had one!), then it would look less innocent and I'd expect to be arrested. The album cover on the album isn't really an issue. I'd go so far as saying the album cover on a Misplaced Pages article of "VK album cover controversy" (with a better title) would be fine, as that is the subject of the discussion. But given the majority of the albums sold around the world were probably sold with the alternate, non-naked pre-pubescent girl cover, it's hard to justify using that particular fair use image on the article about the album GTD 15:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's all very interesting and I understand what you are saying, but that's not what I am asking. I am asking if the album is openly sold in record shops in the UK. It's a question of fact: is it or isn't it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Considering that the album was released in 1976, I'd be surprised if that edition was still sold as new in the UK. It appears that the album was most recently released by BMG Japan in 2008 (according to Allmusic), and the BMG Japan catalog listing for it shows the alternate cover with the band members. On this side of the Pacific, Best Buy doesn't even have a cover image, and Wal-Mart doesn't sell it. Tower Records used to sell the version with an explicit cover, released as an import in 1999, but they don't sell that any more. I have no idea what you'd find in stores in the UK, but given the state of music retailing, I doubt you'd find the original album in any stores other than the largest megastores that have a sizeable import collection. Realistically, most mid-sized music stores in the US are most likely to have only the greatest hits collections by bands that were active in the 80s. They need the shelf space to stock 100 copies of the latest Beyonce or Britney Spears album. I know my comments won't exactly rock you like a hurricane, but I'm just pointing out probabilities. --Elkman 16:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)Never mind, I was being completely uninformed. --Elkman 00:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's all very interesting and I understand what you are saying, but that's not what I am asking. I am asking if the album is openly sold in record shops in the UK. It's a question of fact: is it or isn't it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have verified that there is a 2-CD album available in the UK with cover art based on the original photo. If you get reports of sightings without photos, I recommend asking explicitly whether it was with a colour photo. I sent you the details by email. --Hans Adler (talk) 16:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- By checking around, and with the help of one of my real life friends, I was able to find three places in the UK selling the album with cover art at least based on the controversial image. I also emailed you the details. J.delanoyadds 17:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- You might also try the Reference Desk. They're usually quite enthusiastic about tracking down the obscure and unusual. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Amazon.co.uk at least sells the In Trance/Virgin Killer box set which indeed includes the original cover. (See here) --217.228.56.26 (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
According to the Channel 4 news broadcast on the subject, their correspondent was able to purchase the album on High Street. Avruch 21:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- And according to the same broadcast (which I imagine meets WP:RS) the album they brought did have the artwork on the CD which is the specific I guess Jimbo is after. Pedro : Chat 21:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- And clearly not Jimbo alone. A clearly intelligent question which has needed to be answered. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- And why VK alone and not Blind Faith, Nevermind and Houses of The Holy? --217.228.56.26 (talk) 22:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Can someone in the UK check iTunes and see which album cover comes up? You don't have to buy it! OrangeMarlin 22:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- The "alternative" cover (eg, the group lineup, not the child). Incidentally, the Channel 4 News story referred to above is online here. – iridescent 23:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Jimbo. The album cover is sold, legally, in the UK. It must have been deemed okay to publish. While it's not my particular kind of artwork, I guess since it has been published nationally it is okay for Misplaced Pages. 63.3.15.1 (talk) 22:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- The "alternative" cover (eg, the group lineup, not the child). Incidentally, the Channel 4 News story referred to above is online here. – iridescent 23:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Can someone in the UK check iTunes and see which album cover comes up? You don't have to buy it! OrangeMarlin 22:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- And why VK alone and not Blind Faith, Nevermind and Houses of The Holy? --217.228.56.26 (talk) 22:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- And clearly not Jimbo alone. A clearly intelligent question which has needed to be answered. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Removing the image?
I tried to make an argument that the Virgin Killer image should be removed here: Talk:Virgin Killer#An attempt at a serious discussion, but it's clear (as you've no doubt noticed yourself) consensus is pretty strongly against it. While I don't wish to look like I'm asking for consensus to be overturned here... if the image is going to get removed, it'll have to be by Office Action, not through normal editing procedures. Just an FYI. Terraxos (talk) 00:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Or perhaps, a Jimbo Wales initiated deletion request that can't be speedy closed, so that the community can decide definitively, the chips fall where they may. Ideally not on the IFD page, which is really unwieldy. rootology (C)(T) 00:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- The community can decide definitively? The image has been up for deletion before, the community decided to keep, it's been tried to be got off the article, the community decided to keep it, it's been tried to move it to a different place in the article, the community put it back - just how definitive do you want? I hate to accuse anyone of forum-shopping, but quack, quack, waddle! DuncanHill (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think Jimmy needs to get involved in this - as Duncan says, it has been discussed and decided many times definitively before. That is why the deletion discussions proposed since it became controversial have been closed quickly. Additionally, Jimmy's involvement at that level might be unwise in a broader sense given his close association with the Foundation and the public nature of any action he might take on this right now. Avruch 14:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. But I would recommend to the community that we go back and take a hard look at whether we ought to be keeping this based on our own principles, if it is in fact likely to be in violation of the law in the UK and (especially) US. As a community, we are already quite firm: we do not and will not accept images of child pornography. So then the question becomes: does this image fit the definition under (especially) US law, or the law of any particularly relevant countries (UK). That is a question of judgment of fact that I do not think has been looked at sufficiently. I am not an expert, but I can tell you that - as for me - I am not downloading or looking at the image at all, I don't want it anywhere near my computer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the FBI had the image brought to their attention earlier this year, I am sure Mike Godwin would have told you if that had caused any problems. DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree 100% with JWales. Giano (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the FBI had the image brought to their attention earlier this year, I am sure Mike Godwin would have told you if that had caused any problems. DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Why would some countries, apart from the US, be "particularly relevant"? Fram (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Numbers. If we Hondurans get blocked it wont affect more than a handful of folk whereas that is not the case with the UK. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- So the small bullies can be ignored, but we give in to the big ones? I hope not... Fram (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Numbers. If we Hondurans get blocked it wont affect more than a handful of folk whereas that is not the case with the UK. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Precedent; if we disallow an image over its concerns as a possible illegal picture (and never mind that you can obtain the album in a sleeve based upon that album) because one person complained to a quango who took the view of a law enforcement officer or group - and in the UK law enforcement agencies do not decide upon interpretations of law, that is the judiciary, but only enforce it - that it might contravene legislation that was placed to stop access to child pornography sites (which WP is not), for any reason other than it does not comply strictly with WP's policies on the appropriate allowance of Fair Use images then you are going to have every pressure group, individual, politician looking for quick capital, lawman hoping to establish credentials, etc. bombarding Wikia with demands that images that they find offensive removed. At the top of the list may very likely be the Governments of Muslim nations demanding the removal of images of Mohammed... Please let us be certain that if we remove or accept any image it is in respect of our internal policies and practices, and not for any other reason.
- FWIW, I also wouldn't want to have that image on my pc - it would be very embarrassing for someone to think that I might enjoy the tortured guitar wank and historonic/moronic vocals of The Scorpions... (shudder) LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Evidently the image has been repeatedly brought to the attention of law enforcement over the 30-ish years it's been out there, and never been held to be child porn anywhere that we know of. The legality issue appears settled.
- If law enforcement want to reopen that, they can do so - and we should comply if they decide otherwise, obviously. But lacking that, the argument that it's illegal falls rather flat.
- It appears to be offensive enough to be highly controversial, but so were Maplethorpe photos and so forth. The controversy has made it notable. The recent controversy moreso.
- I'm all for stomping on things which are child porn, or pedophillia related, but if we extend that beyond the "that's probably illegal" into "that's clearly offensive" we step all over our ability to reasonably and completely cover legitimate notable topics. I think this image clearly is on a slippery slope - there's reason to be upset, but perhaps this is the offensive example that we should defend in the interests of freedom of speech and freedom of open discussion about offensive but socially significant topics. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- re legality in the UK (a lawyer's opinion)
The relevant law here is the Protection of Children Act 1978, which criminalised "indecent images of children"; that Act does not define "indecency", but decided appeal cases state that this is to be assessed with regard to "prevailing community standards". This makes it difficult to assess an image today that was originally produced 32 years ago at roughly the crossover from glam-rock to punk rock, and, it has to be said, before the above Act became law. However, it's a principle of UK law (in contrast to most European law) that any act is legal until made illegal, so it could be argued that continuous availability of this image over such a long period, and even today, is persuasive as to its legality. However, until that is tested before a court, we have no way of knowing. It's made more difficult because one jury cannot bind another, and a decision made in Bristol would be irrelevant in Manchester. In the UK, however, there have been numerous examples of images reported for prosecution in recent years (some of which have been of the photographers' own children, who just happened to be nude at the time), which have come to nothing. On balance, I think it unlikely that the Crown Prosecution Service would consider any action in relation to this image to pass the tests of (a) public interest or (b) more than 50% chance of success, to sanction a prosecution. My belief in this is strengthened by the fact that any such prosecution would have to be sanctioned by the Director of Public Prosecution, and his advisers would undoubtedly be aware of recent events. --Rodhullandemu 22:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Explicit pictures potentially of minors
Jimbo, above you quite rightly state "As a community, we are already quite firm: we do not and will not accept images of child pornography". However, are you aware of the number of potentially sexual images held on WMF servers where the subjects may, or may not, be above the age of consent?
How many of the following images can you/we actually prove are from people of legal age? And these are just some examples of many:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Pubic_hair_(female) http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Male_reproductive_system http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Male_masturbation
Surely we have to stop accepting images unless full proof can be obtained that the subject of the picture 1) gives consent and 2) is of a legal age to give consent, at the very least? As things stand, we are facing a real risk. Thanks GTD 17:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- We're getting into thorny legal issues here, I think. There are two frameworks for this problem - one is the editorial / community values framework, in which we can decide for ourselves which images to exclude and on what basis. The other is the legal framework, where what can and cannot be published is described in law. We need to focus on the community values issue, not the legal issue, and age verification steps (particularly if systematized) sort of blur the lines between the two frameworks.
- At the moment we rely primarily on contributors to ensure that files which are uploaded are legal - both in the United States, and in the country of origin (where the uploader lives). Given that the WMF is not involved in this sort of thing, aside from complying with valid takedown notices, I think that the Foundation is probably safe from legal risk (and I assume, if it wasn't, Mike Godwin would be taking a more active role). People should be concerned about what is legal for them, and not worry overmuch about the legal risks to the Foundation.
- Beyond the legal framework, I think we could usefully have a conversation about whether the various sexual images we have on Misplaced Pages (particularly all those that aren't being used currently) should stay, and how we judge new uploads for appropriateness. Keep in mind, though, that many of the images come from Commons - and any discussion on whether those images should remain would need to be held there. Avruch 18:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Fair points. I agree that we need to step back and take a dispassionate look at the issues, such as anonymous people who may or may not be minors uploading pictures of their sexual anatomy, but with the current "ZOMG!!! NOTCENSORED!!!" things flying around, perhaps in the face of common sense, now is not the time. But I really do worry that any media organisation actually putting the effort in to scratch beneath the surface of the Wiki machine may find some things that will be harder to defend than an album cover from 1976. GTD 18:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- maybe Misplaced Pages:Sexual content is a good place to start? - @av - we are, of course, empowered as a community to brainstorm guidelines / policies for use etc. - @gtd - I think you're spot on, and @jimbo - my sense is that this is an area where your leadership could really make a difference - your feedback on the ideas at the proposal would be most welcome :-) best, Privatemusings (talk) 03:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Privatemusings, how many timesin the last few days have you spammed this failed proposal on this and other high profile pages? Please stop it. Fram (talk) 07:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- about 4, maybe 5? - I shall no longer spam here - (although I think it's a good idea ;-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 07:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Privatemusings, how many timesin the last few days have you spammed this failed proposal on this and other high profile pages? Please stop it. Fram (talk) 07:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- maybe Misplaced Pages:Sexual content is a good place to start? - @av - we are, of course, empowered as a community to brainstorm guidelines / policies for use etc. - @gtd - I think you're spot on, and @jimbo - my sense is that this is an area where your leadership could really make a difference - your feedback on the ideas at the proposal would be most welcome :-) best, Privatemusings (talk) 03:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Fair points. I agree that we need to step back and take a dispassionate look at the issues, such as anonymous people who may or may not be minors uploading pictures of their sexual anatomy, but with the current "ZOMG!!! NOTCENSORED!!!" things flying around, perhaps in the face of common sense, now is not the time. But I really do worry that any media organisation actually putting the effort in to scratch beneath the surface of the Wiki machine may find some things that will be harder to defend than an album cover from 1976. GTD 18:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
IWF blocking is over
http://www.iwf.org.uk/media/news.251.htm rootology (C)(T) 18:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- And with that can we finally put the silly notion of removing that album cover image to rest? While there are doubtless any number of images hosted on the server that have no business here, Virgin Killer is not one of them. It is a work of art that has, to my knowledge, never been banned, deemed "obscene", "pornographic", or even prurient by any court in any jurisdiction. The notability of the image is evident from the controversy surrounding it. The controversy and resultant worldwide media coverage provide a fair-use rationale far beyond the mere representation of an album cover and the community consensus to keep the image has been reaffirmed many times. Yes, it probably is time to step back and take a dispassionate look at issues of improper image uploading, in my opinion it is not so much a failure of current policy but, rather, a lack of editorial oversight. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 19:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, the PR-speak version of "boy, did we screw THAT up." Nice to see some level of sanity has returned. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I think you can use this
Jimbo, in reading around the net on the UK censorship thing, I came across this link, written by Neil Gaiman. It was written a few days before the UK ordeal, and I think this can be useful background and arguments for you, if you are ever asked questions about UK censorship on 'icky things' again. It provides some historic context for censoring in the UK, and about having to sometimes 'defend the indefensible'. I found it most interesting. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 04:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Selection system in elections
Not sure what the usual practice is, but if you want some food for thought, you might want to take a look at this thread. Gatoclass (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I’ve sent reply to your mail. --Avinesh T 09:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
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Block
Please, Block Drini it's a Dictator, and blocks me for no reason. See http://es.wikipedia.org/Especial:BlockLog/201.207.245.14 Last Block.
201.207.245.14 (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo is not a sysop at es.wiki, nor has he ever exercised the position of founder there, like he does here at enwiki. Also, using his steward powers there without an invitation from their community would be highly frowned upon. I would suggest you try and handle this internally at es.wiki. MBisanz 18:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)