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Images of people where copyright is owned but not self-created
I have had difficulty uploading images of people and granting free use in the public domain because I always seem to have to tick a box that says 'I created the image myself'. Many images of famous people have been inherited by family members, and presumably the copyright is inherited too. Am I correct in thinking there is no provision for simply saying 'I own the copyright and grant free use', and should this not be provided for. It seems odd that a statement 'I created the image' is taken on trust, even from anonymous editors, but ownership of copyright by inheritance or gift is not dealt with similarly. In the limit it could be argued in some cases that the person holding the camera at the time actually owned copyright, and that this passed down differently to the actual image ownership. Unless the images are valuable, in which case the matter is likely to have been sorted out, there seems little point in bothering about the fact that, for example, my brother held the camera when a particular photo of my school was taken, of which I own the transparency. What do others think of that, and is there an official position? --Memestream (talk) 21:20, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
You mention several different issues.
I think that in the U.S. the copyright is generally owned by the photographer and then by his estate; officially there is someone in charge of the property of the deceased. The rights to use the photograph might not be under the control of the person holding the photograph.
When uploading old photographs whose copyright have expired, the upload forms seem to be not allowing specification of some such situations although there are copyright templates for expired PD items.
The person who took the photograph owns the copyright (under current law), not the person holding the negative.
Yes, we seem to be in agreement. I suggest that after clicking on 'upload file' a simple tick option should appear saying "I believe I own the copyright, and I grant free use in the public domain/grant use under GFDL license". Is the GFDL license really appropriate to photos though; this seems unclear from what I read, as it is primarily for software and is complicated by stating a certain number of copies. What can I do to put a photo in the public domain but subject to acknowledgement of me as source? As for the person who took the photo owning copyright, that is what I would assume in principle, but in practise it is surely unsupportable as cameras do not record who was holding the camera! In practice I suggest that it is reasonable to assume that the person owning the film also owns copyright, provided there is no reason to believe otherwise (hence my use of the word 'believe' above). Where someone who took a photo but does not own the film wishes to claim copyright, I suggest that unless the owner of the film agrees then he has no claim in practise unless supported by a court decision, as he can provide no simple proof. --Memestream (talk) 15:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Responding to the question about the applicability of GFDL to photographs (or images in general): No, it isn't, unless you want to hobble the picture with restrictions that (if strictly enforceable) all but amount to a Misplaced Pages-only (or, rather, use as part of a larger GFDL work only) license. And it's not really at all clear whether Misplaced Pages itself is really strictly complying with the letter of the GFDL. For practical use with photographs, I'd recommend the Creative Commons Attribution ({{cc-by-3.0}}) or Attribution-ShareAlike ({{cc-by-sa-3.0}}) licenses. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
If the person who took the photograph owns the copyright, does that mean if I ask someone to take a picture using my camera, that person owns the copyright? Or would it be considered that the person is taking the picture under my direction, acting as my agent, and therefore I own the copyright? EricJamesStone (talk) 18:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Under a strict reading of the law, that's an incredibly messy situation. In practice, you can act as if you clearly own the copyright. --Carnildo (talk) 23:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Images: Free use or GFDL?
To sum up, the significant facts that seem to have come out of the above are that if we grant free use we effectively give up everything, though we might be able to still insist on being credited. But if we use the GFDL licence then we ensure that any commercial user has to make the whole of his work which incorporates our image available under GFDL, which is a cost to him, and a payoff for us. Is that right? If so, perhaps the desirability of GFDL for images should be made clearer. --Memestream22:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. The GFDL would not possibly hold up in a court of law under such circumstances. Use of a GFDL'd image in a work would not make the entire work GFDL. If somebody publishes a picture in a newspaper, the newspaper would not be free for anybody to use.
Actually, GFDL has never been tested in court, so...unless you are a JD or a elite member of the bar, ( which I asked two JDs and Judge Robert Keeton, last January about it. He has since DIED. ) I would not trust an off the cuff judgement. Artoftransformation (talk) 08:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
But, Simply put, GFDL is an attempt to extend into documents and images the policies of Free Software, as: You can use it, but others have the RIGHT to the source FREE. ( Read up on RMS, and GNU, and the GPL. ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artoftransformation (talk • contribs) 08:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The GFDLis very restictive when it comes to non-GFDL commercial reproduction and basically makes use in a typical magazine or book unfeasible. If Misplaced Pages were ever commercially printed, it would be under the GFDL, so there's no problem licensing images that way here. The post above claiming "use of a GFDL'd image in a work would not make the entire work GFDL" is pure obfuscation. From the GFDL article:
The GNU FDL requires that licensees, when printing a document covered by the license, must also include "this License, the copyright notices, and the license notice saying this License applies to the Document". This means that if a licensee prints out a copy of an article whose text is covered under the GNU FDL, he or she must also include a copyright notice and a physical printout of the GNU FDL, which is a significantly large document in itself. Worse, the same is required for the standalone use of just one (for example, Misplaced Pages) image.
In other words, unless the publication is also licensed under GFDL, or it reproduces every page of license in full, it will be in breach of the GFDL copyleft. It might, I think, make an image difficult to port to some other wikimedia projects, although AFAIK this isn't an issue uploading images to commons. Why isn't this more commonly-known? I'm really not sure, but it may be due to the foundation's wish to have stuff dual-licensed, which provides the most flexible, non-PD commercial free terms, allowing licensees to choose the most appropriate license. It does, of course, make non-free commercial reproduction quite a bit easier, which is the biggest single reason stopping professional and copyright-conscious photographers from uploading their work here, IMO. I'd certainly be interested in hearing a wider discussion on the issue. --mikaul12:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Can this be done in articles?
Can you have two pictures of two ends of something, like this?
I think (if this technique were EVER needed) it would improve the flow of the article. However, I am worried it would appear differently for every browser and cause issues. Would it?
Thanks. CompuHacker (talk) 02:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The above combination of 2 pictures and text is actually all one big .png image. Having text in images is deprecated because it is inefficient and makes an image unsuitable for wikipedias in other languages. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No, no, you're looking too closely. Presume that the image is of an article. The idea is that you can have article text, and two images representing one object on either side. They are aligned in a way that you can clearly see that they are the same object, yet there is nothing but text in the middle. Please bear with me and try to understand :(. CompuHacker (talk) 14:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no need to make a special composite image in order to get 2 images side by side when you can use HTML to construct a single-row table like this:
Reducing the width of the IE browser window causes the horizontal scroll bar to appear. It functions reasonably with my table solution whereas the position of the text "There's no need for a table, just use" relative to the thumbnails in AlanBarrett's method changes. More complicated things can also be done with browser-friendly HTML table tags though I don't know for what "Important physics related article" any of this is useful. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Facebook Inquiry
This may have been addressed already though I could not find it in a google search of Misplaced Pages or in any of the archives. It's an inquiry into the claim about images on Facebook uploaded to public areas such as groups and publicly accessible photo albums are allowed to be uploaded on to Misplaced Pages. Do these images become public domain as uploading these images you release your rights to facebook, and potentially any other third parties that have access to them via your privacy settings you choose?
When you use Facebook, certain information you post or share with third parties (e.g., a friend or someone in your network), such as personal information, comments, messages, photos, videos, Marketplace listings or other information, may be shared with other users in accordance with the privacy settings you select. All such sharing of information is done at your own risk. Please keep in mind that if you disclose personal information in your profile or when posting comments, messages, photos, videos, Marketplace listings or other items , this information may become publicly available.
Thanks for any insights people may have. This is in relation to landscape images of public landmarks. Mkdw05:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
On that note, I've been trying to clarify: let's say someone has uploaded a picture of several people. When requesting permission to use that picture, do you contact the author only or each person in the picture? Corsulian (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
For use on Misplaced Pages, you need to contact the copyright holder (who is usually the creator of the picture). Make sure you're asking for the picture to be released under a free license, because simple permission to use the image on Misplaced Pages isn't good enough. --Carnildo (talk) 20:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Image licensing question
There's a thread at Deletion Review at the moment - here. A photographer had uploaded images to flickr, initially under a CC licence. She subsequently decided to change the image licence and removed the CC licencing, but by then someone had already taken the images and uploaded them to Misplaced Pages. What is the status of these images? My first impression would be to leave them deleted, but I would appreciate some people knowlegable in image policy chipping in on this, either here or on the DRV thread. Thanks. Neıl☎10:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The policy on "photo galleries" is unclear and difficult to interpret. Some users are misinterpreting it to mean "all photo galleries are bad regardless" of location, context or format. My understanding is that in-article options 1-3 are currently acceptable, but that separate pages consisting solely of images and captions ("namespace galleries") are discouraged. Can someone confirm this and/or rewrite the policy so that it is less confusing, and add some rationale so that we can understand why the policy exists. Currently the policy is causing conflict and misunderstanding. Specifically, please replace the obscure term "namespace galleries" with some basic English.Rep07 (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Second this! It has come up in an FAC I'm involved in. From that I can see from the few mentions I've found, it seems that the policy about galleries is not about the tag or using the tag, but about "galleries" that are pages that consist entirely of images. Some of my findings follow:
Galleries are pages which contain large numbers of media content—almost always, images—with little or no supporting text. Large numbers of galleries have been deleted from Misplaced Pages
And further in it defines it:
gallery:
Any page or page section which consists entirely or almost entirely of images or thumbs. Note: In fact most references to "galleries" in the text below clearly refer to "gallery pages" only.
Basically both image use and MoS appear to be talking about "gallery pages" and not "using gallery tags in a page with other content. Can someone clarify this for me? I'd hate to fail an FA on this! Maury (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Given the lack of comment on this, I have to assume everyone agrees! So then can I go ahead and add the clarifying text to the guideline? Maury (talk) 20:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Ha! I have tracked down how all of this started, it's in this edit. As you can see, the article clearly talked about "pages consisting mostly of images" which they called "montages". However, the term "montage" was objected to, so they changed it to "gallery", certainly a more confusing term. I am going to add clarifying text now. Maury (talk) 21:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
This does require further discussion, and I agree with Rep07 that the section on photo galleries needs clarification/rewriting. I also agree that "all photo galleries are bad regardless of location, context or format" is not the intent. However, I do not agree that all galleries, other than pages consisting mostly of articles, are acceptable. There are a number of scenarios where a gallery is a really useful tool to help illustrate an article -- there are other uses of galleries where it simply represents a collection of images, and in those latter instances the galleries ought to be replaced by a Commons link. This is an important issue - let's get it right. Skeezix1000 (talk) 17:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to elaborate a bit, I think you've relied too much on a failed guideline proposal, that did not generate enough discussion or support, for your suggested definition of gallery, and you are reading too much into the earlier montage/gallery wording discussion. Having said that, can we not come up with wording that makes clear that not all galleries are bad, while at the same time not gutting this policy and suggesting that all galleries are fine (which I know a lot of people would have a problem with). Maury, what was the FA you were working on, and how did that play out? Skeezix1000 (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
(undent) The FA was for National Ignition Facility. There is a small selection of images at the bottom in a gallery tag, and the reviewers claimed that galleries should not be used. Trying to understand why that was, I came to the conclusion above, which I still hold, that the wording was introduced to the Image Use Policy to address "pages of mostly images". The confusing wording led people to believe they were arguing against "the gallery tag", which is something else entirely. Maury (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed that the clarifying text I added to the Galleries section had been removed.
The policy, as it is currently written, is extremely misleading. The section on galleries is not talking about the gallery tag, it is talking about "montages". If you want proof, simply consider the fact that the policy was originally added in this diff on 15 April 2003. Why is that interesting? Because the gallery tag was added in mediawiki 1.4, which was released in February 2005.
Clearly the text in question is not talking about the gallery tag; it predates it by two years and is substantally similar to the current version. All that has changed since then is the addition of what amounts to a discussion in the policy text, and the changing of the term from "montage" to "gallery", which has obviously confused matters. Yes, there has been considerable conversation about whether or not montages should be used, but there has not been, from what I can see, a single conversation about the gallery tag.
Skeezix1000, I'm all for adding additional guidance to tell users how to best use the gallery tag. However, that would be new material that the current policy does not cover. If you wish to lead discussion on this, by all means, start it up. But the clarifying text is going back in in the meantime.
I am sorry, but you need consensus for the text you propose to add. You are making a very significant change, and whether you feel it is consistent with past history is really a matter of opinion. In making your change to the text, you relied on a failed guideline proposal, and now you seem to be making a historical distinction between montages and galleries that is not very convincing, and certainly does not support your contention that the policy only applied to full gallery pages. I have sent you links to past policy discussions showing that the issue is far more complicated than you make it seem. In any event, the history is of minor relevance, because the policy is often used, as you even noted above, for the proposition that galleries (i.e. the gallery tag) are not appropriate in all situations. Your edits effectively gut the policy, and mean that galleries are appropriate at almost all times. If you want to make a significant change to the policy, feel free, but you need first to establish a consensus today. I am happy to work on a policy with you, and propose here it on the talk page. Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The interpretation on the non-free content policy pages has generally been that a gallery is a clustered collection of images. "If it smells like a gallery, it's a gallery" ... Note that galleries can exist inside articles. *MOST* uses of the gallery tag are galleries, but you can easily create a gallery without one.--Gmaxwell (talk) 04:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently involved in a dispute over a photo gallery I added to the William Lyon Mackenzie King article. I think that, as currently written, the Image Use Policy doesn't actually clarify whether such galleries are acceptable/desirable, since it basically says "here are 4 possible standards, but none have yet been adopted."
I'd like to argue in favor of Gallery inclusion in articles which are not MERE galleries. I think that the article I added to the William Lyon Mackenzie King page adds considerably to the article in that it gives the reader a greater visual sense of the man's career. I also don't think that it's comparable to a Wikimedia Commons gallery: a Commons gallery potentially has hundreds, or even thousands of images (especially for an important figure like King). A gallery on a Misplaced Pages page, on the other hand, can select out the best, and most representative images about a topic.
In clarifying our policy, I would also propose the following: I think that if we allow galleries, they should have a maximum size. Now, I have 80 images of King up, which I would argue is justified because he was prime minister for a staggering SIX TERMS. So, maybe a max of 100 images is appropriate - or maybe a lower # like 50 is appropriate - I think this is worthy of discussion.
I would also say that, if we ultimately decide that Galleries aren't allowed, we should come up with some procedure by which Galleries could be transferred to Commons instead of simply deleted (since any gallery someone took the time to create would probably have some merit and should be preserved somewhere.
I agree and disagree with you. I disagree with you as to the clarity of the policy. It is very clear -- in general, galleries are discouraged. There is odd wording at the beginning, generally reflective of a series of failed discussions in the past that had attempted to come up with more detailed criteria as to when the use of a gallery would be appropriate. However, the policy itself is otherwise straightforward -- there must be a good reason to have a gallery in the article namespace, otherwise use the Commons.
I also disagree with your comments on the Commons. Just because the WLM King category or gallery on the Commons contains hundreds of images does not mean that a more specific and separate Commons gallery cannot be created that provides a visual chronology of the man's life, using the best images. And we can include special links to that gallery within the WLM King article, in addition to the standard Commons link at the bottom. The Commons is very flexible, and would allow you to do exactly what you are wanting to do. The additional benefit of the Commons is that it is a shared resource among the various Misplaced Pages projects, allowing other projects to link to the chronology.
My final area of diagreement (sorry, I will get to the agreement part in a moment) is in respect of the number of images. I am sorry, but I think an 80-image gallery on Misplaced Pages is just preposterous. No wonder you are getting push back over at that article. Having said that, however, I think the size of a gallery (if it is agreed that special circumstances warrant a gallery) is an issue best left to be resolved in the context of each article - not here. Any limits we came up with for this policy would be, at best, arbitrary, and would likely just be instruction creep. The number of images depends on the purpose of the gallery and the nature of the article, and it would be very difficult to come up with a general guideline that would be useful or helpful.
As for my agreement, I do agree with you that there are instances where galleries are appropriately used in Misplaced Pages articles -- typically, such galleries are not just collections of images, but rather describe or show something that can better be done by images rather than words. For example, an article on a painter could contain a gallery of 6 images which show the progression of that artist's style over the years. In such cases, the purpose of the gallery should be clear (e.g. the heading should read "Evolution of X's style" rather than simply "Gallery"), and the gallery images should typically accompanied by detailed captions to assist the reader in understanding what is being shown. On the other hand, an article on a city that contains a gallery consisting of numerous snapshots of that city's landmarks probably does not constitute an appropriate use of a gallery in Misplaced Pages. That latter gallery should be transfered to the Commons.
I do not know if your gallery over at the WLM King article is appropriate or not. The policy, as it is currently worded, would generally seem to permit what it is you want to do (although maybe not 80 images), because what you are proposing is not merely a random collection of images. However, I think that's a discussion best left for the talk page of that article. Mind you, I do think here that we can amend the policy to make it a little less confusing at the beginning. I would propose that we eliminate the dated references to the four approaches and to the "no decision has been made yet" -- those discussions have since occurred, and no consensus on more precise criteria was ever reached. And we probably never will agree on more precise criteria because ultimately I believe that these decisions (as to whether there is some justification or purpose for a gallery beyond what can be done on the Commons) are best made in the context of each individual article. I would leave the first para. quite simple -- "In general, galleries are discouraged in main article namespace; historically, such galleries are more often deleted than kept. As a result, there are relatively few namespace galleries in the encyclopedia and good reasons must be given for creating them. Consider instead linking to a gallery on Wikimedia Commons – see this page for more details. The determination of whether a gallery should be incorporated into an article or created at the Commons should be discussed on the article's talk page." Skeezix1000 (talk) 12:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't really understand the argument for NOT having image galleries. To my mind, one of the great things about Misplaced Pages - as opposed to a paper encyclopedia - is that you CAN include a lot of content like this, making this material more accessible and adding far more visual depth to an article than would be possible in more traditional media. Why is it "preposterous" to include 80 images? To my mind, it would be awesome if every Misplaced Pages page about a world leader had 80 images. Why not???
Maybe I'm just not as involved in the intricacies of the Wiki-universe to understand, but why is a gallery on Wikimedia Commons better than a gallery on a Misplaced Pages page? Why insist on splitting up the article and the visuals when Misplaced Pages already provides a place where the two can be integrated? I don't see what we gain by splitting the two? Adam_sk (talk) 15:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines are clear -- just because we can add something to an article doesn't necessarily mean that we should. Even WP:NOTPAPER, which you cite above, notes that there is an important distinction between what technically can be done, and what reasonably should be done -- there is a feasible limit for article size, and WP:NOTPAPER is not a free pass for inclusion. Good articles maintain a proper balance between prose and images; in fact, the perfect article should include informative, relevant images "that add to a reader's interest or understanding of the text, but not so many as to detract from it." The clear and unanimous feedback you have received over at the William Lyon Mackenzie King article is that your 75+ image gallery was excessive and did not maintain that proper balance.
As for your comments on splitting, we routinely split large articles and create sub-articles where appropriate, and leaving certain galleries to the Commons is no different. It provides a better balanced, more appropriately sized article, and (just like any subarticle) the gallery is merely a wikilink away. Moreover, the significant benefit of the Commons is that it allows the gallery to become the joint effort of various Wikiprojects. Skeezix1000 (talk) 12:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The discussion on breast is about the Gallery. In that case an earlier consensus was formed that the Gallery was desirable, and that many images offered valuable perspective on the topic. Recently an editor came along and wiped out the gallery without comment or discussion. (apparently his agendum was censorship under the guise of cleanup) After reinstatament, and now discussion and agreement by most editors that the Gallery is too large and needs to be gone through and cleaned up, editor Star Trek Man has supported a position of wiping out the whole Gallery. His opinion is his right. Indeed, like most editors I think the prevailing opinion, including my own is that just because an image can be added to the article does not mean that that it should be. Hence the discussion on how best to clean up the images in the Gallery -- which ones we can add into various sections in the article, and what new sections don't exist but obviously are needed based on a good image in the Gallery indicating that a sub topic is not addressed. In any event, entire removal of the Gallery in the midst of ongoing discussions by other editors is disruptive and unwelcome, as well as being contrary to past efforts that resulted in consensus with the Gallery being desired.
I respect the opinion of a valuable editor like Star Trek Man, but in this specific case I don't find disrupting the ongoing discussion to be constructive. Atom (talk) 18:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Image content guidelines
Please see Misplaced Pages:Image content guidelines for an attempt to start a guideline to consolidate and improve our guidelines on image content on Misplaced Pages. Please discuss at the talk page and help improve this new guideline, which was inspired by this and other recent image discussion controversies. Carcharoth (talk) 23:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
No-deriative allowance?
There's a bit of a discussion going on concerning Troy McClure's potential main-paging; the only free image we can find of Phil Hartman is on a Creative Commons licence that does not allow for derivative works.
I personally am of the opinion that the image could still be OK for the purpose of Misplaced Pages, perhaps just with some sort of special template and a "Do not move to Commons" warning. What say you? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 12:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I am seeking input, and hopefully the determination of some guidance, on whether the image of a military decoration should be used on Misplaced Pages in a context other than the military decoration itself.
The prompt for this issue is that I discovered Image:Air Force Good Conduct Medal ribbon.png used as part of a one-of-a-kind, custom Misplaced Pages award given to User:BetacommandBot. I removed the image, saying it wasn't an appropriate use of the image. My edit was reverted by Betacommand in this edit. I also placed a notice on the awarding editor's talk page (User talk:Rolypolyman) asking that editor to please consider picking a different image as part of the award. Another editor started a discussion on the editor assistance page on this topic, with people saying the discussion should be moved to a policy-making area.
Relavent U.S. laws & regulations: As with anything produced by the U.S. federal government, the images for military decorations are completely in the public domain. There are still federal laws & regulations which govern the use of military decorations, including 18 U.S.C.§ 704 and, for the Army (and sometimes Air Force), 32 CFR Part 507. As part of this second reference, Part 507.12(c) states that "ribbons... or colorable imitations thereof, will not be used by any organization, society, or other group of persons without prior approval in writing" of the military. It would be my interpretation that displaying the image in its original context would not be "use", but that displaying the image as part of a new award would be "use" on the part of Misplaced Pages.
Proposed policy: Prohibit the use of images of actual military decorations on Misplaced Pages used in a context other than as part of the actual military decoration they are associated with. Affect of policy: This would prohibit military decoration images being incorporated into Misplaced Pages awards as was done in this case.
Why I'm proposing this: (Some people are concerned about why a person proposes what they propose.) I am proposing this because I saw the image where it was and in the context it was used in. I recognized that the award looked like a military decoration, and this was confirmed when I clicked the image. I didn't like the idea of such an image being used in a way it was not intended to be used. When I discussed its removal, everyone seemed in agreement that it is an inappropriate use of the image, but nobody was aware of any law or Misplaced Pages policy violated. I would like to see that Misplaced Pages policy change to include what most people would think appropriate and what may be required by U.S. law/regulation.
I fully support restricting the use of any military (USA and all countries and awards) award as part or the derivative of any Misplaced Pages based award. To further this, I believe any user should still be allowed to use the awards on their userpage as a self-awarding, if they wish to, in such case as they may have actually received the award and wish to share that information here. The general thought behind my support in restricting is that other usage would cheapen the true aspect and meaning of the award. Copyright aside -- yes, we can legally do it perhaps -- but should we? The barnstar is the adopted standard Misplaced Pages award, do we need anything else? Those that serve and do such great things to earn the real awards don't need them cheapened by Misplaced Pages. I would be fine with a "Misplaced Pages Good Conduct" award, but does is need to copy a real award? Why can't it just have the barnstar format? MECU≈talk22:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
There are some legalities involved with use of U.S. military awards relating to the Stolen Valor Act. I'm not sure if any of them apply here on Misplaced Pages, however - IANAL and all that. Kelly22:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The Stolen Valor Act modified 18 U.S.C.§ 704, which starts off: "Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration...", so it's hard to apply to an image display on the internet. 32 CFR 507.12 could apply, though. Read para (c). I've quoted it above. ~Pesco00:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If we can conclusively say this is illegal, it should be policy. If not, it should be a guideline at WP:AWARDS never to repurpose images of actual military or civilian medals for WP awards. There is absolutely no reason to steal an image of a meaningful award, the reuse of which is probably offensive to those who were awarded the actual medal, when it's so easy to create a unique image. – flamurai (t) 03:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Would it be sufficient to place the {{Insignia}} restriction tag on those images, or do we need a special-purpose restriction tag for these images? Kelly05:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Wow! I didn't know such a template existed. If its use is accepted as policy, I think that should be fine. A few questions: Can an image have two templates? Also, all U.S. gov't awards will fall under commons:Template:PD-USGov-Award and commons:Template:PD-USGov-Military award... Could the contents of {{Insignia}} be placed in these two templates (many more for other countries), or can a template be placed in a template? Thanks. ~Pesco11:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, what limitations on use on Misplaced Pages should using the {{Insignia}} impose? Will it be understood that images tagged like this won't be used as part of Misplaced Pages awards? ~Pesco11:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Images can have two or more templates, usually when uploading fair use images we apply all relevent templates to the work in question, so I don;t see why we couldn't have two or more for a pd-image. One thing that somewhat concerns me though is that those of us who would award military type images for whatever reason typically do so becuase of the status of the award: for example, those who have been harrassed incensently or have fallen victim to vandal attack repeatedly are occasionally given purple hearts as for thier status within the U.S. military. Now it wouldn't be two hard to replace the image, but do the law(s) surrounding military decorations also prohibite the use of award names under the circumstances you have provided? TomStar81 (Talk) 21:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Just did a bit of searching... I think you mean Template:The Purple Heart Barnstar? Can't say I'm completely keen on the name just on the principle of it, but I don't think any laws or regulations would address as they might when using the image of an actual military decoration and calling it something else. ~Pesco04:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I picked purple heart becuase its meaning was obvious, but I was thinking about what may/could happen if some made a "wikipedia medal of honor" or a "contributer good conduct medal" or a "project coordinator unit citation" or something along those lines. Obviously the use of any associated image for such awards would be controversial if the borrowed directly from the current awards (a medal of honor, a good conduct medal, a unit citation, etc) but I wanted to make sure that the use of such names would get anyone in trouble. From the sound of it they wouldn't (legally) but it would be distatefull. Is that more or less correct? TomStar81 (Talk) 05:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I seriously doubt it's illegal, and any regulation that would seem to say that is probably unconstitutional if it were applied that way. If it were illegal the worst we could expect is a polite request by the US government to remove the image - they're not going to prosecute or sue. Unless it's blatantly obvious or there's a serious risk of financial harm to the Foundation questions like that are best left to Wikimedia's legal counsel, because if we jump the gun and act on mere speculation it has a chilling effect. Absent any illegality I don't know of anything in image use policy to prohibit it, but there could be. However, I would think that a sense of decorum, decency, and respect suggest that we not repurpose military medals for use here, particularly not for ironic or controversial purposes (e.g. praise or a subtle dig at Betacommand by giving BetacommandBot a medal). Wikidemo (talk) 14:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with your comments. Just to clarify, by mentioning possibly relevant laws/regulations I was only trying to show that there might be references that speak to the issue of whether images of military decorations have any kind of protection, not assert that what is going is "illegal" in any sense. Like you say, I am hoping that out of respect and recognition that these images do have some kind of special status (even if they are in the public domain). I'm hoping that, to prevent examples such as the one you mentioned, Misplaced Pages image use policy can gently state that the use of these images is limited to use in reference to the actual military award. ~Pesco03:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The above doesn't go for appropriating text as long as it isn't too close to the military use. Phrases like "good conduct medal", "hazardous duty pay", etc., have made it to common use in English. I think "purple heart" is a fence-sitter. Inasmuch as it is an exaggeration (being a victim of wikidrama is only marginally comparable to sustaining an injury in military combat) many uses for it might seem a little ironic. Wikidemo (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think unless someone is claiming (say, on their userpage) to be a recipient of an actual Purple Heart or other military decoration, there is no violation of the law. Kelly14:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not asserting any protected status for text that has similar military awards, such as generic "good conduct awards" or "Legion of...", etc. Just as an aside, there are plenty of people that use military decoration imagery to state on their user pages that they have been awarded a particular award. I don't think there's a problem with this. If a person is lying, the fault is theirs, not Misplaced Pages's. I just think Misplaced Pages can, through image use policy, limit military award images to use in reference to the actual military award. ~Pesco03:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Conclusion
I was wondering if this RfC could be brought to a close. To sum up, there have been two issues at hand: 1) Are using these images for other uses appropriate, and 2) is this use prohibited by law/regulation? While it could be asserted that in various countries using the images for other uses is not allowed, I feel Misplaced Pages, as policy, should not allow other use purely on principle & sense of appropriateness.
That said, I propose the inclusion of {{Insignia}} within military decoration image templates such as commons:Template:PD-USGov-Military award. I propose that images portraying military decoration should only be displayed on Misplaced Pages when used in the context of the actual decoration and not for any fictional or Misplaced Pages award purpose. Thoughts? ~Pesco01:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I think this is much made about nothing. I don't think that we need policy on this, but I would support a petition to Bettacommand to remove that graphic from his award as disrespectful. It is very ironic that Betta is so anal about proper releases etc. for images, but shows no respect for those who have earned this ribbon legitimately. --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I acknowledge the consensus that there's no desire to change image use policy for images associated with actual military decorations. I also appreciate the sentiments of those that disagree with the use of these images out of a "sense of decorum, decency, and respect." Personally, I find it unfortunate that there's more interest to prevent misuse of a music album cover or a TV screenshot than a military award image. Thank you. ~Pesco03:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
What IS the use of images in the "Image Use Policy"?
I've tried reading this, and it's clear as mud to me. The article on Image Use Policy seems mostly about what images can be uploaded. All I want to know is
1. May I use any image that I find on the Wikimedia Commons in an article on Misplaced Pages?
and
2. If I may not use images that I find on the Wikimedia Commons in an article on Misplaced Pages, what images can I use?
It depends on the license of the image and the article it's being used in. For example, as far as I know, a corporate logo may be used in the article about that company. A TV-show main title screen may be used in the article about that TV show. Images that have no copyright claimed or are public domain may be used pretty much freely in Misplaced Pages. If you have questions about any specific images & articles, feel free to ask. ~Pesco01:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
The first part of the answer above applies to fair use images, which won't be found on Commons anyway, but must be restricted to wikipedia. The simple answer is that all images on the Commons may be freely used in any wikipedia article, depending on the relevance and appropriateness of the image to the topic, of course. That assumes that the image has been uploaded correctly and with an accurate permissions licence to Commons in the first place, although that is not really your problem. If you do have doubts when looking at an image, notify a Commons admin or even nominate it for deletion there. Ty01:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! That is the information I needed. Maybe it could be stated like that on the Image Use Policy page for others who are not uploading images, just trying to illustrate their Misplaced Pages article? --Hafwyn (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and will be deleted on sight.
needs to be changed to
Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and will be deleted quickly unless a valid fair use rationale is provided and the image is actually used as described in the fair use rationale.see revised version below
in order to comply with actual practice.
I'm not going to go around changing policies without discussing it first, so are there any comments before I make this change to the documented policy?davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 22:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Please include language to suggest that honest mistakes leaving out some minor detail should not result in speedy deletes. There needs to be some sort of dividing line between clear copyvio and honest mistake, and that if the reviewer cannot tell the difference at first glance they should always assume the later. Lots of images are being deleted from the wiki not because there is anything wrong with them, but because the uploader didn't follow the unclear-and-ever-expanding instructions to the letter. Maury (talk) 18:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Revised version - how is this?
Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and will be deleted quickly unless a valid fair use rationale is provided and the image is actually used as described in the fair use rationale. If the image is used in an article but is missing a fair-use rationale, and such a fair-use rationale can be easily provided, editors and administrators are encouraged to provide such a rationale rather than deleting the image to make a point.
NATO has a photograph collection (http://www.nato.int/multi/photos.html) for which it hold copyright. NATO permits the images to be reused under certain coditions (http://www.nato.int/multi/conditions-e.html). In particular they state that "Material is provided, free of charge, for use only in objective and balanced documentaries/articles, even though at times the end products may be critical of NATO". Clearly they are not public domain. Can I use them in the Misplaced Pages? If so what licencing templates would be required and would, given NATO's conditions, they need to be low resolution, not freely replaceable etc? Thanks. Greenshed (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Some editors are using the statement "In general, there is no need to specify thumbnail size. Users can select their ideal size in preferences" as a reason to strip all sizing off images using the "thumb" claiming that thumbnail images should never have a size set. This is done without regard for whether the images can be properly displayed at the 180px default (which is what the vast majority of readers will see, such as images with unusual dimensions or images with text. I've read some of the older discussions noting how disputed this is, and I'm wondering if this is some hard fast rule that must always be followed, or if common sense prevails. From my understanding, the answer is no. Misplaced Pages:Image use policy#Displayed image size does not specifically forbid image sizes ever being set, and further down it notes what to do "where size forcing is appropriate." MOS:IMAGES notes that lead images should be atleast 300 pixels wide. Most infobox images default to 250px. A vast number of featured articles and lists includes hard sized images as lead images. The images are not thumbnails, they are tagged thumb to put a caption on them and allow resizing down to a more suitable article size. "Frame" cannot be used as it will not allow one to specific the size of the image. WP:PIC also allows for resizing, including telling you how to do it and noting specifically that you must use thumb to set a specific image size. So is this stripping of sizes condoned or appropriate? -- ] (] · ]) 22:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems that around 6 months ago, an editor took it upon themselves to re-word the MoS to change from the existing established consensus position that specifying the image size is "not recommended" to "not necessary". I don't know how this slipped through unnoticed but it is now under discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#Watering down of non-use of pixel sizes. The previous consensus position was that we should not be forcibly over-riding user preferences unless there is a specific reason for it. The MoS outlined the most common situations where use of a fixed size was appropriate, and the discussion underway there is partly about getting the MoS, Image use policy and Misplaced Pages:Extended image syntax#New syntax for images (notes under sizepx) to be consistent. Either we reaffirm the existing consensus position or we say "screw users who want to set their preference bigger, we're going to go back to forcing the images to be small" and re-word the pages. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 06:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Oops. I forgot to answer your question. The answer is, unless there is a justifiable reason to retain the fixed pixel size (such as those outlined in WP:MOS#Images), it is appropriate to remove it in accordance with WP:EIS. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 06:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
If you want to put it that way one could characterize your position as "screw the 99.9% of readers who are not logged-in experienced Wikipedians who have changed their preference settings". Image size settings are widely used, even in featured articles. The prohibition you are arguing in favor of doesn't reflect any working consensus. Haukur (talk) 08:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Crediting CC-BY
Do CC-BY images need to bear a credit line in every article they appear in, or is the credit on the image description sufficient? – flamurai (t) 23:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It was suggested that I post this question here. I have an old postcard with a photograph of a lighthouse that was seriously damaged (a corner of the brick structure) and I would like to upload the image. However, I do NOT know how old the photo is and do not want to violate copyright laws. Any comments or suggestions? --Crimson Red Fox (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you know when the postcard was first published? Do you know the name of the photographer? If not you probably won't be able to satisfy image policy. Haukur (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Image rights questions
Hi, I'm not sure where to ask this, so I'm starting here:
I've been contacted by an advertising agency that wants to use one of my photographs that is posted on Misplaced Pages with a GFDL license. They are aware that they can use the photograph under the terms of GFDL, but they would like to use it without having to post all that text, and they would like the photo at higher resolution than can be found in Misplaced Pages. Here are my questions:
I haven't found anything in the GFDL license that restricts me from licensing a different version of the photograph for commercial purposes, so I assume it is alright. Is this correct?
I will make it clear in the agreement with the advertising agency that their use is non-exclusive, and that a GFDL version will continue to exist at Misplaced Pages. Are there any other considerations I should be thinking about?
As this ad will be seen by thousands of people (it will be in a newspaper insert), do I need to do anything to keep the Misplaced Pages image from being challenged as a copyright violation? Should I note on the image page that commercial rights to a higher resolution version that was never posted on Misplaced Pages were not GFDL?
Is there anything else I should be thinking about?
Does anyone have an idea what I should charge for the rights? (I'm planning to donate the proceeds to Wikimedia) E-mail me if you have advice about this question.
2. The 2 points you mention are important to have stated. Specify as rigorously as you can what the agency can do with your image in return for their payment. Say that non-exclusive use means that you keep the image as your property.
3. No. No.
4. I think not. But look very carefully at whatever terms the agency offer you and don't accept anything you don't understand. Is this to be a one-time usage?
5. Uh, I'd say whatever the market will bear. I have no idea.
What is the policy regarding copyrighted images of living people? I always thought that they shouldn't be used because a free-use image is theoretically available, even if it's not available yet. Are such images which are used in articles a cat for speedy delete, or is there something else which should be done. I have one particular image in mind and there isn't a rationale for it, although the image was uploaded two days before the May 6, 2006 (is that the right date?) cut-off date when copyrighted images required one. It's currently used in an article of the guy, and a list of head coaches (he used to be a coach of a basketball team or something). Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
If you substitute "non-free" for copyrighted, then you are usually correct. In particular, such pictures should not be used merely to identify the subject. However, you could make an argument if it is important to identify how a subject looked at a particular time, such as a now-grown child actor in an article that is substantially about the subject's child-acting career, or if the person is now a recluse and the "theoretically possible to create a free image" statement arguably does not apply. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
CC-BY-SA 3.0 or CC-BY-SA 2.0
I've noticed that the majority of images on Flickr that are Creative Commons licensed use CC-BY-SA 2.0. However, when using the image uploader it only has CC-BY-SA 3.0 as an option unless it's your own image, in which case you can select CC-BY-SA 3.0 or older. Is CC-BY-SA 3.0 okay to use when it's someone else's image and it's only licensed using version 2.0? --JD554 (talk) 08:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, you have to upload it under the same version it was released under. There is a specific option for works from Flickr that will allow you to select the correct license from the drop-down. --Rat at WikiFur (talk) 20:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I apologize if this question has already been asked a thousand times, but is there a standard protocol regarding using here, on English Misplaced Pages, images that are not in the Commons but that are part of non-English Misplaced Pages servers? In particular, I am looking for an image for Alexei Khvostenko. There is a corresponding article on Russian Misplaced Pages, with his picture in it, available here:. The user who uploaded the picture there states in the licence box (in Russian) that he himself took the photo and that he surrenders all the rights to it to the public domain. To be honest, I am slightly dubious here, but assuming that I believe his claim, is there a standard protocol for dealing with such situations? Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 00:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Are you asking how to move the image to commons, whether to honor the public domain designation, or how to check the status of the image? —EncMstr (talk) 00:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess all three. Also, would it be acceptable to upload that image to the English WP server (rather than the Commons) and to give the Russian WP site as a source and to say that the author of the image stated there that the image is released into public domain? Nsk92 (talk) 00:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
For an image which will be—or might be—used on more than one project, upload it to commons using this page. (You might have to create or extend your account before it will work.) Answer the questions, many of which will be the same as listed on the ru site. Before you can upload, save the photo on your system temporarily. In general, save the highest resolution available by clicking on the source photo until no higher resolution is available. Reverse click, choose "save image". WP:AGF says trust the uploader, unless it's obviously stolen, etc. —EncMstr (talk) 00:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I find the self-creation claim quite dubious. It's clearly a professional picture, but it doesn't have any of the usual indications of self-creation: it has no information about where or when it was taken, it doesn't have EXIF information, and it's web-resolution rather than full-size. --Carnildo (talk) 00:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I also though that the picture was a bit too good. However, the user mentioned in the licence (Sir66) does say on his userpage that he is a photographer (presumably professional). There is also something else that is a bit fishy there. The picture was originally uploaded by the user Ruskiman in 2006 and then two year later, in 2008, user Sir66 edited the licence and wrote there that he is the author of the photo. Could be that it is the same person who forgot his password. Still, I am feeling rather uneasy about this one. Nsk92 (talk) 00:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Image stumper
I have an issue. I am working on an article, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin, and would like to add some images from Wisconsin Historical Society, like this one. I am unsure of the licensing issues, though. I emailed the Image Production and Licensing Manager, and was told that we could use the images gratis, so long as they are credited to the society. As some of the images are at the 90+ year mark, they are not free images. I could use some guidance on how to approach the situation of implementation and obtaining of free usage, either here or through offline wikimail. - Hexhand (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been discussing this with another editor (User:Caspian blue) this morning, who insists that I am misinterpreting policy in regards to forced image sizes. As far as I can tell, the relevant section of this policy is quite clear: for the majority of images, forced sizing is to be avoided, because it overrides individual user preferences. CB has repeatedly stated that he is not overriding my preferences with his edit (1), and that I apparently need to change my own system configuration. I'd like some additional comments here, to determine if my interpretation of the policy is indeed in error. There has been a somewhat extensive discussion on my talk page, for those who may be interested in the original discussion. Thanks for any clarification that may be provided. Parsecboy (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
My interpretation is that thumb sizes should rarely be specified. As desktop screens get larger and hand-held devices get more common, giving the user the ability to set his own preferences will become increasingly important. So - you are correct, in my opinion.--Appraiser (talk) 17:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
You are indeed correct. Unfortunately, the equivalent part of the Manual of Style was changed a while ago to remove this because there are an increasing number of editors who have the attitude that they want to optimise the image size setting for their own personal system and don't care that it over-rides user preferences. The result of discussion there was a very watered down wording that gives the impression that it is okay to use fixed pixel sizes. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 00:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
You have run an automatic removal of all manual set sizes in all these articles without seeking consensus. As it has been said here, policy is now softened and the image size can be set to a different value where it is deemed appropriate. Not all users will change their settings and default 180px is sometimes too small. Of course it usually shouldn't go over 550px as the policy says but forcing a size is not something that should by no means be considered bad and removed at sight. If you think otherwise you are free to seek support for the change of policy but until you do so you can't remove the forced size by quoting this policy as this policy never mentions that forced sizing is forbidden, in fact it allows it.--Avala (talk) 11:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, specifying sizes is often a good thing and is widely done. Very few of our readers have Misplaced Pages accounts with specialized preferences. Haukur (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I would disagree with the use of forced image sizes and would consider that the use of the word generally would indicate that some special case would have to be made to force the image size. It is a pain when looking at article with a small screen size when somebody has forced the images to 300 or higher. It only takes a click to open a smaller image to view it large. MilborneOne (talk) 11:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
That is exactly the point I've been stressing in my discussions with Caspian Blue. Not everyone has the exact same monitor, computer, internet browser, and the same resolution settings, so a "one size fits all" policy is completely untenable. What looks nice on a 17" monitor will likely look like crap on my small 14", and just as bad on someone's 20" screen. Or what looks good in Firefox might not be so great in Safari. This is exactly the reason for having our own preferences for image sizing. Parsecboy (talk) 11:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
What percentage of those who read a given Misplaced Pages article do you think have set an image size preference? Haukur (talk) 12:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
What you or I think is irrelevant; there's no concrete evidence to justify your assertion that only a tiny majority do have their preferences set. I prefer to err on the side of caution, and assume that more do than not, and towards that end, avoid forcing what might look good on my particular system on others. Parsecboy (talk) 13:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
more do than not Right, thanks for answering. So, more than 50% of those who read Misplaced Pages not only are logged in users but also have changed this particular preference setting. Is that erring on the side of caution or is it just erring? Haukur (talk) 00:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
As you have posted here Avala, perhaps you can tell us why people who have their settings at 300px are being forced to see photos at 250px, when there is no valid reason for having them at 250px. Why not 300px? The people who are so adamant on having images at 250px, on those articles, have not yet come up with a valid reason for doing so. Just what is the reason for forcing photos on these articles to 250px? --Россавиа12:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Well 300px makes vertically oriented images too large for the short article, they exceed the length of it. It's all common sense. And as it has been pointed out only a small number of readers have a set size. It's set at 300px for me yet I don't see a problem with images set at 250px if that is appropriate.--Avala (talk) 12:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) It doesn't matter that few people change their default settings. When an editor tries to improve the layout of an article by setting a size, any improvement is unique to his monitor, resolution settings, and browser. In other words, it does no good to try to manage the issue as an editor. Readers can leave their default at 180px and click to see larger images, or they can investigate and find out that they have some control over it. As an aside, I would like to see the "preferences" options go down to 0px, for use on handhelds and in public areas where I want to read with no pictures. Does anyone know of a technical reason this can't be accomplished? If it is done, I will become even more resolved that editors should not specify thumb image sizes. --Appraiser (talk) 13:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter that few people change their default settings. Yes, it does! Almost everyone will see the default size (and not know or care that they could laboriously change it by getting a Misplaced Pages account, fiddling with its preferences and then making sure they were logged in at all times) and the default size is unsuitable for a large number of images. That's why editors frequently specify image sizes and why any policy page telling them not to is a dead letter. Haukur (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm in complete agreement with Appraiser - image sizes should be handled by user preferences and the Mediawiki defaults, not specified in the article. Mediawiki is not InDesign or QuarkXpress, and article editors should resist the urge to worry too much about the graphic design of articles. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with editor Appraiser. Forced image size is not useful, as the broad range of monitor sizes, screen widths and pixel densities means that at standard size, how it looks differs on a monitor by monitor basis. Even if an user does not use the custom settings, they have the capability to do so in the cases where many articles are unreadable for them. At least with a dynamic, rather than static capability we leave it within the grasp of every user to fix the issue if they choose by merely changing their preferences. With a fixed pixel size, all users have no control over that. I am a strong advocate that editors should not specify fixed image sizes. I change all articles I edit or review to remove fixed pixel sizes whenever possible. Atom (talk) 13:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
we leave it within the grasp of every user to fix the issue if they choose by merely changing their preferences There's nothing merely about it - most Misplaced Pages readers don't even have an account. Most websites don't force you to log into them and change preference settings just to ensure that you can make out people in photographs or ensure that maps and diagrams are legible. Insisting that every image be the same width - regardless of height or, really, anything else - is not a sensible policy. Haukur (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
That's why the upright parameter exists. To allow a different scaling factor to be applied to taller images. As has been pointed out before, it is always possible to click on an image to see a larger version. I would also point out that this entire discussion (and other similar ones including some that have been linked above) is a significant waste of time and is a direct consequence of the watering down of the MoS wording. I said before that I wasn't entirely happy with the compromise and I'd see how it went. Well, now I can see that it went badly, as I expected. This type of time wasting argument, plus related edit warring, will continue all over wikipedia until the MoS wording becomes a lot more definite than it is right now. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 14:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
You think having a draconian rule that doesn't actually correspond to what people do in practice is a better state of affairs? Since you and I have had conversations about this before, let's bring back my old test and look at the featured article of the day. That would be William Wilberforce. It has several images and it has sizes specified for all but one of them (presumably because that one is tall and doesn't look too small with a width of 180px). I'm even amused to notice that some of the images are set to larger sizes than I would personally prefer, that's not typical. Haukur (talk) 14:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Funnily enough going back thru those discussion, noticing it was HaukurÞ who made the change without discussion, perhaps he now can answer the question as to why I should be forced to view images at 250px when I have settings at 300px with my 21" monitor. --Россавиа14:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Honestly you should be the last person to complain about edits made without discussion as none of this would have happened if you sought community consensus and policy change prior.--Avala (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The default size, by design, is intended for those 99% of readers. If you think the default size is not appropriate, lobby to have it changed. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Image forced resize is there for a reason. There is simply no universal size which fits every image and situation (180px or any other). It is often a case to case issue and having all images set at the same size is worse then setting them to a specified size. Also the maximum thumb size one can set is 300px and often detailed lead maps need 500px (as they are horizontal they don't take too much space as a vertical image would take with 500px). So maybe some image needs more prominence and detail then other but if they are all fixed at a default size which is always the same we would have some vertical images taking too much space while some important horizontal images would be hidden behind. I agree with Haukur that insisting that every image be the same width - regardless of height doesn't make any sense. --Avala (talk) 14:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Well use the upright parameter. Aside from that, there is no valid reason for forcing of sizes in any of the articles which I mentioned above, because from all I can see it is your own preferences which are guiding this, rather than the use of the policy in the spirit in which it was written (not including Haukurth's totally unwarranted changes) --Россавиа15:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
How come then Featured articles use forced size then if it was against the rules? The answer is that it is not against the rules.--Avala (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The FA people are quite happy to follow what the MOS says; it's just a matter of getting the MOS right. I wasn't aware until today that the MOS was so lax about the bad practice of forced sizes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
So, before mean old me made that change to the MOS a few months back the featured articles didn't specify image sizes? I think that doesn't fit the facts. Haukur (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
You're trying to do more graphic design than the medium allows. No image "needs" 500px - the reader can always click on an image to see a larger version. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Policy allows up to 550px. Sorry but I choose to trust the policy over you and for a reason. If you need to see Monaco on a wrold map you need more than 180px. And maybe you are not interested in clicking you want to see it within article.--Avala (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
And the buildings? We have to see each individual brick? Those are the images we are talking about, and you know that. Why are the photos being forced to 250px in size? It overrides my own preferences, and you have no valid reason to do so. Well I hope that Haukurth is happy to see what he has created....nice job there. --Россавиа15:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
You amuse me. I didn't "create" anything. More than half a year ago I modified a single word in a single policy page to bring it more closely into line with the facts on the ground and best practices as seen in e.g. featured articles. I doubt this has had more than a tiny effect on how people actually do things. Haukur (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
250px is only 70px larger than 180px so please don't overreact. You can't see every single brick on 250px and you know it.--Avala (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
But it is 50px less than my settings. Why is the situation allowed to arise whereby you are overriding my own set preferences? That is not the spirit in which the policy is written, and there is still no valid reason for setting photo image sizes. Or is there? That is the question that you have yet to answer. --Россавиа15:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I already answered it. Not all images fit into the same predefined size mold. Sometimes they need to be shown larger sometimes smaller and it usually corresponds to the amount of text in the article and importance of detail on the image. And you are inconsistent, you call 250px as something where we will see every brick but 300px is your set size.--Avala (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The policy says "Images should generally not be set to a fixed size (i.e. one that overrides the preferences settings of the individual users, see the Manual of Style)." The only exceptions in the MOS are "Examples of images which typically need more than the default size include lead images (see above) and detailed maps." - which is more liberal than needed, since as I said maps can be zoomed by clicking on them (or, as in the case of Monaco, replaced by different maps that already have a zoomed inset portion.) — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Fantastic idea! Show the map of Monaco diplomatic missions by zooming to Monaco so no country outside of Monaco area can be seen! Now it might be a useless map and incorrect because it doesn't show what it's supposed to show but the important thing is that it's zoomed. Or let's make readers click every image, who cares what is the speed of their connection and if they really want to see a 800x600 (default preview). Now it could have been solved by forced size to more than 180px but less than 800px but that would have been a sin, right? Of course apart from my sarcasm I hope you got the point.--Avala (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to images like this, that use insets. As I said, if you think the default size is too small, you should lobby to change it, but not override it on an ad hoc basis. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
And I was referring to this. You can't see Monaco on 180px here Map at 180px where we are supposed to see Monaco - impossible.--Avala (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't particularly mind it as a default size. Sure, 200 or 220 would probably have been better but it's not worth the fuss trying to find the optimal default. Also, people have assumed for a long time that the default is 180px so many of the images which don't specify size are actually fine at 180px. Anyway, even if we had another default we'd still have to override it on an image-per-image basis. And that's what we do. That's what we've always done. Haukur (talk) 15:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
No, honestly guys, if you think you have a consensus for your 180px-fits-all solution then go ahead and bring the last few featured articles into line with your views. Let's see if that sticks. Haukur (talk) 15:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Given the fondness of FA for following the MOS and policies, it would probably be enough to point out to the FA people that this policy says to generally avoid fixed image sizes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that's almost laughably naive. Do you think this issue has never been discussed in FA circles? Haukur (talk) 15:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
It does seem that the policy language here needs to be tightened some, then. But a review of the August FAs shows they do a pretty good job of not specifiying image sizes, overall. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no need for you to point anything out. They can read and the policy uses clear text. Not to mention further MOS guidelines which say "The pixel size parameter may be omitted; this will result in default image width of 180px (140px for portrait format), although this value can be altered in user preferences. If an image displays satisfactorily at the default size, it is recommended that no explicit size be specified. Examples of images which typically need more than the default size include lead images (see above) and detailed maps."--Avala (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Re Haukur, they all seem to enlarge the lede image, and maps, but I only saw one that went overboard in fixing the sizes of other images. Overall, I think they generally stick to the policy. Re Avala, I already quoted that above. I agree that the policy here, together with the MOS, is clear in discouraging fixed image sizes. It's a bad habit, and self-defeating, to try to make an article look good on your own browser as if you were using a desktop publishing program. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
It makes almost no difference whether the image is unreadable as a thumbnail. The reason it's called a "thumbnail" in the first place is because you may need to click on it to enlarge it to a readable size.
I looked through a different set of articles than you, actually. Your evidence of overuse of fixed sizes is strong. Some are particularly egregious - ] has an image hardcoded to 200px, when the default is 180px, right? That's exactly the type of futile micromanagement that this policy deprecates. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Then why don't we use the text link to an image or thumbnail of 25px? The sole fact that the software allows the forced resize and that MoS allows the usage of it makes it an impossible task for anyone to prove how it must not be used. It might be someone's personal preference that it shouldn't be used but since it exists and is not forbidden it stays at that, personal preference which can't be imposed on other editors.--Avala (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I think we've finally got to the bottom of our disagreement. I fundamentally disagree that the images in question are thumbnails in the sense you describe. In my opinion the reader of the article should be able to peruse the images without clicking on them and the images should be usable for someone who prints out the article. Haukur (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
What size monitor are you going to assume that your "typical" unregistered customer is using? Micromanaging this issue by specifying thumbnail sizes will not work for anyone except the editor who designed the page.--Appraiser (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The images are described as "thumbnails" on this policy, the MoS, and the image help page; the parameter is called "thumb". In what other sense are they thumbnails, apart being miniature version of the full images? — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Mini versions yes. Some wikipedias use mini instead of thumb but if thumb becomes microscopic then what is the point of having them at all if they will be unreadable in printed version? I don't think that paper is clickable.--Avala (talk) 17:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
A user who wants to print an article will probably have to print some of the images separately. It would be nice if Mediawiki supported properly typeset printed output, or the generation of PDF documents that include the thumbnailed images at proper size on separate pages. Also, remember that web browsers already scale up images for printing, since a 200px image would be 1/3 inch wide on a 600dpi printer. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
And you feel that a system where you have to print images separately is better than one where we keep them readable as a default? Haukur (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Clearly enforcing one way is not the answer. Editors should follow a standard, and there should be special instances when the standard should not be used because it does not fit. It makes common sense that a dynamic image sizeable by the individual user preferences should be preferred over forcing the image size regardless of their preferences or monitor size. In some cases, such as with a map, where seing the image without clicking on the image is important to the quality of the article, using a forced size should be possible. In some other instance where a set of photos being displayed in a small space is desirable by the editors, and small size could be forced on the images. These are exceptions though, and in most cases, in most articles, the photos should follow a standard size, dynamic and adjustable by the preferences of the user should they choose, and large enough to give good displat to the images when at the default. That default is currently 180px, and Wiki admins/programmers should make sure that the default size stays current with existing technology. We don't commonly see 14" monitors anymore, and not many people have 25" monitors.
So, in summary, the policy should recommend and prefer not setting a fixed size on images in an article. It should not require that. The wording should say that setting fixed size on an image should be rare and an exception only to fit a specialized case, buit is up to the discretion of the editors. If a dispute over an image occurs on whether it should be set to dynamic or fixed, it should be decided by consensus of editors on the article, but they should consider that the burden of proof should exist to explain why the disputed image should be set to a fixed size over the preferred dynamic setting. That's my opinion. Atom (talk) 17:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Support. Essentially, you've described how it usually worked in practice before the MoS was watered down. Like unsourced material etc, the onus is on those who want it there to show that it's appropriate. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 23:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
All this talk about preferences is so much pie-in-the-sky. Normal readers don't set their preferences. Most of the people who read this encyclopedia won't even know those preferences exist. Of course everyone in this conversation knows about this stuff and I'm sure that several of you have a non-default setting. But we're a very very skewed sample and we shouldn't just decide things based on our own convenience. There is no "dynamic" setting - there's trying to find an appropriate size for each image where the relevant details of that image are visible and there's leaving everything with a width of 180 pixels and hope that this somehow works out. That this one-size-fits-all solution is being promoted as a "dynamic" option is absurd. Not specifying the size will not let the image magically adjust to different monitors, browsers and users. All it does is to allow a tiny number of veteran Wikipedians to fiddle with their settings - at the cost of everyone else who reads Misplaced Pages articles. Haukur (talk) 23:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Bit of an over-simplification. Anyone who wants a large image can click on the thumbnail - that is standard internet practice. There are still many people using dial-up and they don't have to wait for large images to download that they might not even be interested in. Those people who want big images (maybe for sight reasons) and have set their default to 300px will find that any images at a forced size less than that will over-ride that preference and come out smaller - hence defeating the supposed purpose of setting a bigger image size in the first place. No doubt there are regular readers - not just editors - who find out about preferences. Ty00:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
And is 180px for everything standard Internet practice too? What percentage of readers do you think have their preferences set? You can get an upper limit for that question by answering those two: How many logged in users does Misplaced Pages have on a given day? How many readers does Misplaced Pages have on a given day? Haukur (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Haukur, we can't make settings per registered users only as there are so many of those who only read but never edit. Also this is not a matter of MoS but software, for as long as there is an option to set a size for images in the article no MoS can ban it, even if all ~5 users who have gathered here would agree on that because it's a far bigger issue which should be dealt with much bigger participation including programers of the wiki software who would have to shut down the option and wiki board members who might find that harmful and they have the last word.--Avala (talk) 00:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Those are strawman arguments. No one is suggesting "banning" it. There have always been specific exceptions, e.g. detailed maps necessary for understanding the text. If you want to change long-standing MOS stipulations, then please do open the discussion to a wide field and obtain consensus to do so. Ty01:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course there is a "dynamic" setting. When the image is not specified it goes to the default setting in the user preferences. That is currently 180 px. I agree that many, if not most people who read a WIkipedia article do not have a login, and therefore use the default settings. That only means they get the current system default of 180px. The 180px is chosen by system admins based on what default size currently works best (on average shows the best using the average monitors and technology available). That size is "Dynamic" because 1) A user who chooses to create a login can set their preference, rather than it being forced. The few users who do go to that effort are users who have a reason to go to that effort. The "dynamic" default size does not work for them. 2) System admins can change the default size as technology changes and a different size is more appropriate. By doing that ALL articles within Misplaced Pages without static sizes dynamically change without any editing of articles. Atom (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Forcing image sizes is like assuming that everyone has a system like ours, as if there are no people with different screens out there. People who read Misplaced Pages may use different screen sizes, different resolutions, different browsers (with full page zoom functionality or no), may have different habits regardng browser window size (some like their browser maximised or full-screen, others keep their browser windows non-maximised at a smaller size than their screen), and they may also have low-speed Internet access (dialup or GPRS) or have metered (non-unlimited) Internet usage plans where they may be paying very high prices by the kilobyte (eg UMTS/HSDPA 3G/3.5G). All these problems can be avoided or minimised by using the default thumbnail size, so please use it. NerdyNSK (talk) 19:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Others have said it already, but I want to echo: Readers grossly outnumber editors, and Misplaced Pages is primarily for the readers. If an appropriate image isn't legible at 180px then it has to be made larger. If this upsets some editors, well tough. Many images can be left at the default size just fine, but editors should be given wide latitude to make exceptiosn on a case-by-case basis. Dragons flight (talk) 20:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Potential solution
Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, wouldn't the problem be solved if the developers were to add an "Always display thumbnails at this size" checkbox (to provide the option of overriding the sizes specified within articles) to accompany the "Thumbnail size" setting in the user preferences? Has such a request been filed? —David Levy01:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I had thought of that solution (or maybe "maximum size" and "minimum size" options) myself. It shouldn't be too hard to implement; haven't looked at bugzilla to see. I think it's somewhat orthogonal to the discussion here though, since the argument keeps being raised that most people aren't logged in. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
For someone who isn't logged in (or otherwise has no custom setting in effect), it's less helpful to always apply an arbitrary default (which said individual hasn't requested) than it is to allow editors to use their best judgement (assuming that one of the above features is added to MediaWiki). Either way, some readers will end up with better results than others will, but the latter situation increases the likelihood of generating a good layout for as many users as possible. —David Levy01:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Too often, fixed image sizes are intended to fix issues like excess white space that vary so widely from one user to another that there's no reason to expect the default will be worse than an arbitrarily chosen fixed size. On the other hand, whenever a fixed size is specified (since the features you suggested aren't part of mediawiki yet), it breaks the intended default sizing for users who have gone out of their way to achieve it. It's not much different than trying to hard-code font sizes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
1. The "white space" issue is an example of abuse that will occur regardless of whether a MediaWiki enhancement is implemented. Either way, the solution is to explain the problem to the users in question and revert such inappropriate changes, not to severely limit the ability of knowledgeable editors to apply common sense and consensus.
2. Yes, I fully understand that assigning fixed sizes to thumbnails currently interferes with users' personal thumbnail size preferences. That's why I noted that the above is contingent upon the ability to override thumbnail sizes specified within pages being added to MediaWiki.
Basically, both sides in this argument are right. Users who haven't specified their desired thumbnail sizes stand to benefit from the employment of common sense in articles, but many users who have specified their desired thumbnail sizes are better off without their selections being overridden. A MediaWiki tweak could eliminate the issue by delivering the best of both worlds.
A mediawiki extension might be the best solution to this argument. I'd suggest that a pair of check boxes for "over-ride fixed image sizes if they are smaller than the preferred size" and "over-ride fixed image sizes if they are larger than the preferred size" in preferences would probably be the solution that I'd lean towards. One for high resolution screens where users want bigger images and the other for small screens such as mobile phones where users want the images to be small. Such a move would indirectly encourage increased use of fixed sizes, because logged in users who have set their preference would no longer be affected by images being forced to be small and hence these arguements would subside, saving a lot of people a lot of time. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 01:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I like the variant suggested by CBM (minimum and maximum thumbnail sizes), as this would allow for the most freedom.
The current "Thumbnail size" setting would be relabeled "Default thumbnail size" and accompanied by "Mimimum thumbnail size" and "Maximum thumbnail size" settings. Someone who wants thumbnails to always display at a certain size would specify that size for all three. Someone who wants thumbnails to display at a certain size or smaller would specify that size as the "default" and "maximum" (but not the "minimum"). Someone who wants thumbnails to display at a certain size or larger would specify that size as the "default" and "minimum" (but not the "maximum"). And someone who wants to allow a specific range of sizes would set the low end as the minimum, the high end as the "maximum," and one of those two sizes (or one in between) as the "default." —David Levy03:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Image maps
I've been having an interesting conversation with another editor at this TfD about image maps and the problems they raise. One question about them is how clearly they link to the image description page of the underlying image, which of course is necessary for copyright purposes. As far as I can tell, there's no existing policy specifically about them, and they've been multiplying and becoming more varied. I think a centralized discussion is necessary, possibly with the goal of putting a sentence or two into this policy about them. I have no idea right now what that would be, but I'd like to start a discussion. Chick Bowen00:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
By the way, here are a few different uses of image maps currently. They vary greatly in the way links are used and in the visual effect. Let me clarify, my goal here is not remotely to eliminate them, but only to put together some guidelines on how they should be used:
One difference between them is that in some cases the thumbnail is small enough that a reader might want to easily find the full version of the image, and in others (such as the eye image), that is not a problem. The gunpowder image originally caught my attention because the writing on it is too small to read, and it was a fairly roundabout route to the full-size image; that problem has now been fixed. Chick Bowen01:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe that every image requiring attribution must have a convenient and fairly obvious way of reaching the image description page. I also think that most images not requiring attribution probably should as well. This could concievably take a couple diffent forms. For example, the apparently high unpopular "desc" option in imagemap syntax exists to creates a clickable "i" icon that links to the image description page. Sparsely populated images could include a default link covering most of their display (e.g. most of the "eye" referenced above could link to the image description). In addition a link to the image page might appear at the start of the caption. See Template:Annotated_image/Extinction for example. Dragons flight (talk) 01:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you in spirit, but I think probably distinguishing a separate category of images that require attribution is not that helpful, since even public domain images should (not legally but by our policies) have a clear route to a source. I didn't fully understand about the "desc" option--that does seem like one way to address at least some of these problems. Chick Bowen02:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a useful discussion I'm pleased that the objectives do not include "elimination". (Could you close down the TfD please). I agree that it is essential/vital that wikipedia has links from its images to their copyright ... even if it is public domain. I achieve this by the button that is placed in the bottom right of images if they have the thumb option. (Although I think there has been one on wikipedia's main page that broke this rule.) Creating an Image map that did not have this button should be grounds for deletion. (Obviously after discussing the issue with the author if possible). One output of this discussion is that I have improved the template twice and I have improved my skills and I've learnt that Image Map uses the example from The Club (feels great!). I'm impressed by Dragonflights example. As Chick Bowen notes they are getting more varied which is showing that these are a good way of improving articles. I know of at least one FA that uses an image map (pretty much) as its table of contents. (Obviously if we are going to have a free discussion then we need to be able to mention them without a TfD or AfD appearing.) Cheers Victuallers (talk) 12:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
It would seem that one simple option is to make the info icon mandatory in the extension rather than optional. Since the fly-over text for the icon is "About this image" it should direct the user appropriately. This could be an install-time option so that non-Misplaced Pages sites could use the extension without that restriction. --Michael Daly (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Proposed new language
In line with what's said above, I propose to add new language to the policy, along these lines:
The purpose of the image description page is to provide access to the full-size version of an image and its source and copyright information. In order to make that information readily accessible, all images whose automatic link to the image page has been superseded (such as image maps) should contain a link to it either in the image itself or in the caption.
ok by me - this is not just good practise but essential to wikipedia showing respect for international copyright law. (Although there is a bug that prevents links in imagemap captions at present). Victuallers (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Catering for people using PDAs
The current image size policy says "Where size forcing is appropriate, larger images should generally be a maximum of 550 pixels wide, so that they can comfortably be displayed on 800x600 monitors." but I believe that we should also cater for people using PDAs that have screen sizes as low as 640x480 (which could fit a 550px image) or 480x640 (which does not fit a 550px image). Also, today many Web browsers offer full page zoom capabilities (Opera, Firefox 3, ...), and as such setting a hardcoded size may not be really necessary in many cases. I generally think it is better to support PDA users as well as this could help increase our readership, and as such I suggest changing the maximum width to 400 pixels. Don't forget that if the user wants to see the full image they can always click on it. NerdyNSK (talk) 18:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel a page needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Misplaced Pages is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any page by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Misplaced Pages community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Stifle (talk) 11:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Policy on image relevance?
Is there a policy on what requirements must be met to ensure that an image is relevant to the article's content? For example, in the INFJ article (a psychology article on one of the Myers-Briggs personality types), there's a photo of a guy with a tattoo that says INFJ accompanied by some abstract symbols. I don't believe the photo relates to the article. If the article were on the Los Angeles Police Dept., and the photo showed someone with a tattoo that said LAPD, would that be relevant? If the article were on the New York Jets football team, and the photo showed someone with a tattoo that said NY JETS, would that be relevant? I just don't think so. ThreeOfCups (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The policy currently reads "Images should depict their content well." I think that's clear enough, and no, in my opinion the image you mention does not qualify, nor does the logo at the top which was simply evented by the uploader. Chick Bowen22:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I don't think we need anything beyond "Images should depict their content well". When there's disagreement, it's just a matter of working out something on the local talk page. Personally I think the tattoo picture is sort of interesting (though the caption is bad), it indicates that some people take this quite seriously. The logo at the top should go. Haukur (talk) 22:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Common sense always said to me that images should contribute to the reader's understanding of the topic of an article or section. Perhaps something like that should be in WP's image policies.
With respect to the original concern, I too find the image of the man's tattoo very interesting. The text lists, in part, that an INFJ is
abstract in communicating
lives in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities - part of an unusually rich inner life
artistic (having a natural affinity for art), creative, and easily inspired
very independent
orderly view toward the world but within themselves arranged in a complex way only they could understand
I think the image confirms some of these characteristics, in that particular person anyway. I lean toward that it is relevant in supporting the accompanying text. Another factor is that readability is enhanced by interspersing text with visuals. Since this topic doesn't easily lend itself to photographs (in contrast to sports cars, for example), this photo is probably as good as any.--Appraiser (talk) 14:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The objection I have is not so much to the tattoo itself, but that it seems to suggest that getting a tattoo might be typical of an INFJ, which I consider a misrepresentation. The article also says that INFJs are "quiet, private individuals" who have "a vivid inner life that they may be reluctant to share with those around them." The wearing of a large, conspicuous tattoo on the upper arm seems inconsistent with that description.
I agree with the point about visuals enhancing reading, which is why I don't have a particular problem with the logo. It doesn't add much, but at least it doesn't detract, and it engages the reader's right brain. I'll see if I can find some more appropriate images. ThreeOfCups (talk) 23:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
But getting back to the policy question, I think it needs to be a little better defined than "Images should depict their content well." For example, suppose that the Cat article showed only a photo of a sphinx, the hairless breed. It's undeniable that a sphinx is a cat, yet such a photo could mislead the reader into thinking that cats don't have fur (not a reader from the planet Earth, of course, but I'm speaking theoretically). If there were photos of other breeds in the article, however, then the photo of the sphinx would be correctly perceived as depicting an interesting oddity. So is a photo of an interesting oddity better than no photo? Or does it do more harm than good to reader comprehension? If I had a photo of a group of librarians at an INFJ convention to counterbalance the guy with the tattoo, I wouldn't object to the tattoo photo. But given that it's the only photo in the article, I think it has too much weight. ThreeOfCups (talk) 04:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Good points. For the general question, why not add, Images should contribute to the reader's understanding of the topic of an article or section. to the policy. For this example, your analogy with the cat is appropriate. I suppose the caption (of the tattoo pic) could explain which characteristics of the topic it supports, and which it doesn't, but that may be too wordy. I recently uploaded a picture of a bridge that requires a wordy explanation due to an optical illusion, and I recognize that it is far from ideal. Getting a better picture of that bridge is on my list of things to do.--Appraiser (talk) 14:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Question about specific NASA image - confusing labelling
In particular, JPL's image use policy states that JPL images may be used for any purpose without prior permission unless noted otherwise. This specific image appears to be cropped from PIA01076, whose information page contains no such notice. Therefore, I would say it can indeed be safely assume to be free. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 02:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm hoping I have come to the right place to get some advice. I have recently loaded 3 images to help illustrate a biographical article of a dead person - Ted Blake, the images can be seen there now if you need to refer to them - and one of them (the portrait) has been marked for possible deletion because it has no licence. Two of the images were taken either by, or for, Ted Blake (including the portrait) and the third is a scanned copy of the cover of programme for a public event he organised many years ago. All three images were provided to me by Ted Blake's son to be used in illustrating his father's contributions to trampolining. I am not the original owner of the copyright but have been given the rights to use the pictures by the person I now take to be the copyright owner but who is not a Misplaced Pages editor. In such circumstances what licence should I use please? I have gone through all the lists and can not find an obvious match. DaveK@BTC (talk) 10:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Image use grey areas, confusion, and Photographer rights
Let me preface this by stating that I am a photographer and my images have been used in magazines, records/cds, promotional materials, books, posters and on the internet. I speak from experience and in regards to the topic at hand. While I will try to keep my personal opinion out of this it may be hard for me to not cite examples based on my own work.Also this is long, and it is meant to be to show how many hoops a photographer has to jump trough to use their own work and still protect it.
What had prompted me to post here is the fact an image I released via a Creative Commons License was nominated under the CSD. There is a separate discussion on the CSD issue on that articles talk page so I am going not going address those issues here, although at times they may seem to merge.
The WP:IUP page is in place to set forth guidline/rules as to how images can be used on Wiki:
Before you upload an image, make sure that either:
You own the rights to the image (usually meaning that you created the image yourself).
You can prove that the copyright holder has licensed the image under an acceptable free license.
You can prove that the image is in the public domain.
or
You believe, and state, a fair use rationale for the specific use of the image that you intend.
These basics are clear and it seems to imply that a photographer can use his or her own work, which logically makes perfect sense.
But the statement that follows adds confusion.
Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and will be deleted on sight, unless they are used under fair use.
This is now telling people that a photographer can not use his or her own photo unless they clearly state that someone else can make money from it or rework the image in any way they want. Now there is an important word added here as well - the word is unless. And the word hints that fair use would work if the photographer wanted to add some restrictions to their work. To read about fair use uploads you are directed that For details as to Misplaced Pages's policy in regards to fair use, or to ask questions about a specific instance, please see the page at Misplaced Pages:Non-free content..
At this point the user is taken away from the WP:IUP page.
An overview of the WP:NFC page would seem to allow a photographer to allow his or her work to be used with restrictions. Including, but not limited to, Restrictions on location, Attribution of the source of the material and a copyright tag. One of the biggest "restrictions" is found in the following statement: Such material may be used on the English Misplaced Pages only where all 10 of the following criteria are met. Lets say a photographers work seems to meet all 10 of these "restrictions". Lets go first to something important - Copyright. Following the trail up to this point the photographer now has to go to WP:ICT/FU for details, another page. There are clearly marked "Categories" and it is logical to feel the photographer will look for a tag that fits his or her work. For discussion lets say the image the photographer wants to upload is of a musical act either offstage (A candid of some sort) or on stage (in concert). There is no direct listing for either one of those so unless the image was used for an album cover (Cover art) or to promote the artists (Promotional material or Publicity photos) there seems to be no way to use this image. Unless it happens to be of the artist at an historical event such as Woodstock. If that were the case the photographer might use the "Non-free historic image" along with the "Non-free with NC" supplemental tag. The other big restriction the mods mention, but is hard to actually locate, is that a photographer may not upload his or her own work and claim "fair use".
So it now seems one of the 10 required "restrictions" is not met thus voiding the Non-free content use. Back to square one - WP:IUP. The photographer now seeks out other options and they look under the header User-created images. There is says: Misplaced Pages encourages users to upload their own images. All user-created images must be licensed under a free license such as the GFDL and/or an acceptable Creative Commons license. They may also be released into the public domain, which removes all copyright and licensing restrictions. When licensing an image, it is best practice to multi-license under both GFDL and a Creative Commons license.. The photographer now is taken to a page of license tags. Under Creative Commons there are a list of tags however upon reading the actual license all of them contain a musical use term - "Remix". Once can remix music, or a soundtrack to a film, but "remix" a still image? Is this term supposed to translate into "for commercial use, no permission needed to alter content" as it relates to an image? (PO: As a photographer that term is too vague as it relates to images and it is not a Wiki issue directly as Wiki does not create the CCL) Once you get into the 2.5 and 3.0 tags you start to see that there is an option for "Share alike" that says "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one." If the photographers intent is to allow his or her image to be freely used in relationship to a topic but not to be used for commercial reasons or to be altered than that clearly is not the license for use. So now that leaves the "Attribution" license which leave out the wording about altering the work. It also says that Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.. While this is closer to what the photographer wants it is still not clear enough.
creative commons
Lets look at Attribution 3.0 Unported which is on the list of acceptable licenses. Upon reading the main license there is no mention of allowing for commercial use or derivatives. So when in doubt, read the "fine print". If one reads the Legal Code (the full license) you find no definition of "remix". Nor do you see any wording of "commercial use" used. But for "derivatives" you will see that term used under the definition of "Adaptation" and that is allowed under this license. It also says that a person is allowed to redistribute the work "in a collection" and may do so "royalty free". So if the photographer did not want any alterations done this would not be the license to use.
However: Keeping in mind that this CCL is meant to be a broad stroke of all media much of the wording is not intended for a still image - "Publicly Perform the Work" for example would relate to a musician doing someone else's composition publicly, and per US copyright law this is also where the "Royalty free" issue would come in. Royalties are another topic altogether so I will not discuss them here other than to say "Royalty free" is not the same as "commercial use". To get back on topic of uploading an image, if a photographers only concern was that nobody were to make money from their work either in whole or in part (ie - placing the image in a table top book that was for purchase via Amazon, an advertising company using the image for an advertisement, a label using the image for a CD cover or an artist putting the image on merchandising) than this may well be a valid license for dis-allowing any "commercial use". While this license will allow the photograph to be used in a "collection" and that collection can be "redistributed" it does not say it can be used for any "Commercial use", nor is the wording of "for profit" used. Under the "restrictions" section it says "You may not sublicense the Work". It also states that the person using the image must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action in relation to the Work which would be prejudicial to the Original Author's honor or reputation which would clearly "restrict derivatives" as supposedly requires by Wiki. And one final item this license says is LICENSOR OFFERS THE WORK AS-IS.
If you have read this far the question might be 'Ok, so what is really the question/point to all of this?" And I will try to explain it clear terms what that is. The guidelines for uploading an image seem to sometimes go against the accepted licenses, which have changed over the last year. The rules/guideline laid out make it harder to someone who legally owns the image to actually allow for use at Wiki. As one might have gathered already IP Law is complex in this day and age and Wiki tries hard to protect someones work (and their own asses). However in doing so they make it easier for someone who does not have rights to use a photographers work work to be able use their work. How? Wiki allows for fair use of images however the guideline will disallow a claim if it is the original photographer making the claim. As an example - I have taken publicity photos for bands that labels have freely distributed to any and all media for use in relation to articles on the band, but nor for use in commercial ways. As the photographer I would not be allowed to upload that image and say that is was only to be used in relation to the band and was not be used for commercial purposes. However anyone else with access to an internet copy of the image or to a hard copy of that image could freely upload it here under the "Non-free promotional" tag. Likewise anyone could simply upload it claiming they took the photo and they are allowing it to be "public domain". No questions asked. As a recent example I had a photo deleted and was told by a mod that the only way to "prove" I was the original photographer would be too upload a clean copy and release it to public domain. Which leads me to the next "slight" issue.
watermarking
WP:IUP has an almost throw away paragraph that states: Also, user-created images should not be watermarked, distorted, have any credits in the image itself or anything else that would hamper their free use, unless, of course, the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking, distortion etc. and is used in the related article. All photo credit should be in a summary on the image description page. As you followed along in the above section you saw no mention this. That is because if you follow the steps you would not see it. Even though it is another topic, on another page, when images are deleted the Mods like to site WP:CSD and specific sections as for reasons of deletion. Nowhere on that page does it make any mention of a watermark bing a reason for deletion. Many photographers add watermarks on their images because they want to protect their work further and it is almost common practice now for a photographer to add some sort of watermark on an image before it goes out onto the internet. One of the reasons is because of sites such as Wiki where anyone can grab an image from anywhere and use it without the photographers knowledge. As it stands right now there is selective enforcement about not using watermarked images on Wiki. And it also adds to the confusion becuase it is not often cited. Either the rule needs to be enforced throughout Wiki or there needs to be further refining of what types of watermarking are allowed.
proposed
More clarification on guidelines for Image upload, especially if they contradict what the license says as well as other Wiki pages on like topics.
Less jumps to other pages.
More user friendly toward photographers who wish to allow their own work to be used and in what manner.
A better system to allow mods to be allowed to use WP:CSD as it relates to images in a way that is proactive and not simply destructive, or lack of knowledge of the subject matter being deleted.
Allow fair use to be used by the actual photographer
Deletion of 'grey areas' and elimination of conflicts in image licenses.
Misplaced Pages is a 💕. That means both free in terms of no cost, and free in terms of lack of restrictions. The established policy and consensus is that an image which cannot be reused commercially or from which derivative works cannot be made is not free. I don't think this is likely to change.
However, there may be room to consider allowing users to upload their own images as fair use under the non-free content criteria. It seems fairly ludicrous that if I publish a photo that meets those requirements, that someone else can add it to Misplaced Pages and I can't. Stifle (talk) 11:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
If the image was already published somewhere else, the original photographer could add it. The restriction is not about conflict of interest or anything like that. One of the purposes of WP:NFCC#4 is explicitly prevent users from creating images for Misplaced Pages and then releasing them here under a non-free license (it also has purposes related to copyright law). There is also the 'replaceable' issue (WP:NFCC#1) - if one user made the image to upload, in practice it is probably possible for some other user to make an equivalent image. We don't permit nonfree (fair-use) images if they could be replaced by a free equivalent.
Wow! CBM has hit a huge nail on the head. In my reading and putting this together and beyond I never got the gist of what you just said. And that should for sure should be spelled out as clear on the main WP:IUP page. I feel the wording is very important and I think could solve at least one of issues: "creating images for Misplaced Pages and then releasing them here under a non-free license." I know there is a blurb somewhere in the fair-use pages about the image has to have been published already however that is not something you would look for if you are the photographer who is trying to upload their own work. So I strongly feel that there should be a distinction between an image "created for Misplaced Pages" and one that was "Created by the photographer for use ". How to break that down is an issue. To speak from personal work - as of yet I have never "created" any image for sole use on Misplaced Pages nor have I uploaded any of my work with any restrictions that it be solely used on Misplaced Pages. Many of my images have been published and many have not but, as I have mentioned here, and elsewhere, there are various "licenses" that exist for my work that has been published. Currently when an image is uploaded by the original photographer there in only one choice: Entirely my own work - I created it, own all the rights to it, and have not used anyone else's work in making it and that puts you directly into a the All user-created images must be released under a free license. For purposes of Misplaced Pages, "free" does not merely mean that you don't charge for it, but it means that you allow everyone to use, alter, and redistribute your work for any purpose. This release is not revocable phase and goes no further. A person who did not take the photograph is allowed far more options. Many people may have figured out that is what I am against - one size does not fit all creative artist. So what Carl said, if added as options, would perhaps clear up things. What would happen if you went to the upload page and you were still presented with the Entirely my own work... option but then were directed to a sub page that listed options such as Created for Misplaced Pages, Created for publicity - restriction, Created for publicity - unrestricted, Published elsewhere with restrictions and so on. Now for the "previously published" concept. I like the comment that "If the image was already published somewhere else, the original photographer could add it" because it, again, allows the creator of the work to be involved and not someone else who may have simply scanned the photo from a magazine of taken it from a website. I feel, however, that it should not be assumed that if a publicity photo has been used under 'fair use' and the original photographer wants to upload a better version it automatically means it goes from a "non-free" image to a "free" image.
A few things that are more specific, and part of the current contradictions of uploading images, is that Misplaced Pages's wording does not agree with the license they allow. I did cite an overall example above but Carl and Stifle bring up a few issues that I would like to expand upon. First would be the Misplaced Pages rule/license that contains wording of you allow everyone to use, alter, and redistribute your work for any purpose; This release is not revocable and Misplaced Pages does not accept images that are licensed for "non-commercial" use, licensed only to Misplaced Pages, for which permission is required for reuse, or that do not permit derivative works to be created yet allow CCL licenses which make slightly contradictory statements such as: You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor; You may not sublicense the Work; You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action in relation to the Work which would be prejudicial to the Original Author's honor or reputation; This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate automatically upon any breach by You of the terms of this License. and If You Distribute, or Publicly Perform the Work or any Adaptations or Collections, You must, unless a request has been made pursuant to Section 4(a), keep intact all copyright notices for the Work.... I think one can start to see the conflicts here when the actual "hard copy" license says a person has to "attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor" when Misplaced Pages states that you can not place any restrictions on your images so simply saying, for example, "Photo credit must alway be given" would violate Misplaced Pages and allow for deletion. Likewise if I uploaded a photograph of, say, an afro-American and I stated that part of the condition was it could never be used for any neo-nazi/racist activity Misplaced Pages would delete the image even though the acceptable CCL states "You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action in relation to the Work which would be prejudicial to the Original Author's honor or reputation" Soundvisions1 (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, it might be useful to come up with an idea on what exactly to do with watermarked images. Should they be...
discouraged but not prohibited?
speedily deleted?
deprecated (i.e. deleted if uploaded after a certain date)?
I think that right now the practice is the 4th one. This policy is unambiguous:
Also, user-created images should not be watermarked, distorted, have any credits in the image itself or anything else that would hamper their free use, unless, of course, the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking, distortion etc. and is used in the related article. All photo credit should be in a summary on the image description page.
I agree with that policy, since watermarked images tend to look unprofessional and distracting. The issue of attribution is more complex, but as long as article authors are only attributed on another (history) page, it's not unreasonable to credit image authors on another (image description) page as well. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
My issue with watermarks is multi-level. Yes, of course I have a personal opinion as a photographer but that aside for a bit - If someone took one of those typical "myspace" photos and uploaded for their personal Misplaced Pages page would it be deleted? Probably not. But what if it had the time/date stamp on it? That is a form of watermarking but would the same rules apply? Now expand on that a bit - say it was a photo of a landscape, building or other item used to illustrate an article on Misplaced Pages and it had the time/date stamp. Keep or delete? How about a publicity/promo photo where the name of the person/band in the image is embedded in the image? In other words does everything go as suggested above, or do you take it on a case by case basis. Soundvisions1 (talk)
Ok I am going to "blow your mind" with this next item. I had seen it, and even started to use but it did not really seem aimed at images so I removed it. But (!!!) here is a license Misplaced Pages allows but contradicts with their policy of not allowing any "restrictions" to be placed on a user created image. If I wanted to "upload" text that was from a story that I wrote here is a license that is accepted, and the "blanket" license we all agree to when we work on any Misplaced Pages page:
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document
under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2
or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation;
with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts.
Did anyone else register what is going on there? This license allows for certain restrictions - with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. However there is no like worded license for images that is allowed. Yes one could use this same license for an image however it is clearly intended for items that consist of text and would is image considered text unless it was so defined in the "small" print - which it is not. So why is it the written word is allowed to have certain restrictions placed on it, but not a photograph?
~I reworded below this~
Might I suggest a few slightly re-written versions of the above for images:
A cover text is a short piece of text that you insist must be printed on the cover of the manual when the manual is published, even if someone else is publishing it. You can specify a “front-cover text” which has to be printed on the front cover, and you can specify a “back-cover text” which has to be printed on the back cover. You can specify one of each.
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this image
under the terms of the Misplaced Pages Free License, Version 0.1
or any later version published by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc;
with One front cover text: Photograph by
and no back cover text.
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this image
under the terms of the Misplaced Pages Free License, Version 0.1
or any later version published by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc;
with no front cover text and one back cover text:
by
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this image
under the terms of the Misplaced Pages Free License, Version 0.1
or any later version published by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc;
with no front cover use and no back cover use
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this image
under the terms of the Misplaced Pages Free License, Version 0.1
or any later version published by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc;
with no front cover use and back cover use with text:
photograph by
Keep in mind that,again, the intent is to allow/disallow text on a book but you need to translate that to an image. I know this is bordering on "non-commercial" but you would not expect a book to be fully printed on a t-shirt for example. A photograph you could so you could also simply have a "no merchandising" option that would cover any sort of "merchandise" - DVD, CD, book, T-shirt and what not - or you could just remove the word "Text" from the original license so it reads "no Front-Cover and no Back-Cover" and that would imply the image could not be used on anything that could be considered a "front cover" or "back cover". Perhaps instead of thinking in terms of "commercial" use it could be worded similar to the CCL has it worded (You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other derogatory action...) but word it along the lines of "no exploitation" or "no exploitive use". It is very logical to do this and it would still maintain the "free" concept. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It has been a while so I am revisiting part of this with a specific change. I mentioned this above but will mention it again and I feel even stronger about it having gone through images here on a daily basis. The current wording is restrictive and selectively enforced as well as not backed up by various guidelines. The current wording: Also, user-created images should not be watermarked, distorted, have any credits in the image itself or anything else that would hamper their free use, unless, of course, the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking, distortion etc. and is used in the related article. All photo credit should be in a summary on the image description page. Suggested re-wording (New text in green) Also, user-created images should not be watermarked, distorted, have any credits text in the image itself, or anything else that would hamper their free use, unless , of course, the text is part of the image, small and/or unobtrusive, intended to demonstrate watermarking or distortion etc. and is used in the a related article. All photo credit should be in a summary on the image description page.
Some of this could be footnoted. Examples of text being "part of the image" would be a date/time stamp, user created logo, promo photo, creative artists work where text is part of that art. Examples of "small and/or unobtrusive" would be a photographers credit that was placed on the image in a small and/or unobtrusive manner. This would also be only allowable via the original photographer uploading the image and/or having an OTRS on file for the image. (This should exclude text of email address's, websites, phone numbers and so on). Other example might be user created CD or DVD covers or "posters". And I am not talking about "fair use", I am talking about cases where the author/creator of the image uploads their own work and licenses that work. Soundvisions1 (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
If suspected, add the possibly unfree image tag {{PUI}}
otherwise: add the deletion notice {{ifd}} to the image description page.
List the image on one of these links:
copyright violations:
Blatant violations will automatically list for administrator attention. Suspected violations should be listed at Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree images.
The image can then be deleted after a week in the normal way — see our deletion policy.
I'm unsure if mention should be made of WP:NFR. Any feedback? Does it work? Does it almost work? Does it flat out fail for reasons that should be (but aren't) obvious to me? :) --Moonriddengirl17:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I think if the idea is to make it easier for everyone to have up to date information available to them so they are citing the correct sources when they delete or "nominate" something for deletion than I am all for it. However I would like to see all of this in "one" place...and I mean that in a concept sense, not a literal sense. If it is a copyright issue then there should be one copyright page that everyone looks at and uses, not spread out over several jumps. But that seems to be part of your question - at least for images you are saying the WP:CP in no longer used. If that is the case then why continue to cite copyright issues anywhere, even on the WP:CSD? (That is sort of a rhetorical question) I think copyright is massively important but in order to "kiss" I think most everything should be self contained at the WP:CSD and if there are other issues that need to be discussed then users should be directed to the correct location - copyright issues to the copyright article, notability issues to the GNG or an SNG page and so on. You state at the bottom: I'm unsure if mention should be made of WP:NFR and my answer would be "yes" if the reason for deletion was non-free content and not copyright related. (and I know the two cross paths but that is part of what my thread above is about) Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
To interpret Soundvisions1's comment a bit (please correct me if I misinterpret), I think what they're going for is a straightforward and easy-to-follow process that someone should follow when responding to a problematic image that doesn't involve jumping back and forth between many policies. It might make sense to have a policy page dedicated to "dealing with images with copyright problems" that could be linked from several places.
For Soundvisions1's sake, I should clarify that WP:CP has not ceased handling images because they are no longer considered important, but because PUI receives better attention from the right people. Also, I believe the relationship of NFR and copyvio images is stronger than you might think: even the most blatant copyvio image may reasonably be considered for fair use before it's deleted. Dcoetzee22:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Was I that hard to understand? Seriously though you are correct. And also I did get that copyrights are still important, thusly why I said it was a rhetorical question about "why bother". On a good day you ideally need a sub set of IP attorneys who deal with all image issues on Misplaced Pages but that is not a logical option so, yes, having a "straightforward and easy-to-follow process" would work for most situations. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
←It's not really within my power to create a straightforward and easy-to-follow process, particularly given that image work is not my usual area. :) But I may able to create a gathering point for "dealing with images with problems". I've made an effort, here. If this looks like it could be remotely useful, please let me know, and I will village pump it. (Unless somebody points out to me that I'm essentially duplicating something else that I haven't found, I may anyways. I have myself struggled with figuring out how to handle various image issues, and I've thought in the past that such a document could be massively useful.) I suppose it goes without saying that contributions and feedback are welcome, but, in case it doesn't, I'll say it. :) I've never used some of these processes myself, but I've done my best to be all inclusive. Linking to the template for directions as I've frequently done is an effort to avoid contradiction, as the more places a procedure is described the more likely it is to be outdated. Please also note that where I've duplicated text from other documents/policies/templates, I've indicated as much in edit summary in compliance with GFDL. --Moonriddengirl14:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Need Policy on User Created Charts which can be POV/WP:OR
Image:Financial_Leverage_Profit_Engine.png is an example of an original user created chart. If it was a chart of content from a WP:RS article, as are other charts in the article where this is found, I wouldn't have a problem. But the creator has quite his own POV on other issues, so I assume he does here.
Anyway, there are a lot of issues like this where WP:original research could be rampant. I did discuss this at WP:OR/Noticeboard. But despite different views on policy, no one could come up with a link on the policy. I can write a sentence or two and stick it in User Created images section if no one else wants to. If there is a policy, it should be linked in User Created images section. Carol Moore 23:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
Even more to the point, whether or not the image itself is deleted, I believe it can be safely said that using it to illustrate an article is inappropriate, unless the facts it purports to illustrate are actually presented in the text of the article in a manner compliant to our policies, including WP:OR. Images on Misplaced Pages are used to illustrate articles. If the image is not a good illustration of anything but a set of claims that cannot, under Misplaced Pages policy, be legitimately included in any article, then it cannot be used on Misplaced Pages, period. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Since the article didn't mention "original research" as a reason for deletion I didn't think it applied. Does that need to be in there?
Someone could do an artistic work illustrating some point in an article, and that too would be WP:OR. People on original research agreed image in question was not appropriate so the person removed from the one article discussed but refuses to move from another article he "owns" even more than the original article. Sigh... Carol Moore 18:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
Doesn't WP:OI cover this? Original images are fine, even encouraged, provided that they do not "propose unpublished ideas or arguments". Jheald (talk) 19:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I remember now that since it didn't deal with my issue, I brought it to original research noticeboard, which agreed with me, bu the person creating the POV diagrams largely ignored. I did just add there the type of problem I've seen as a specific example to original images policy and if it's acceptable I'll just add the relevant section and link to this article. :-) Carol Moore 13:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
A bit fuzzed out on this
Apparently this image is inappropriate to be used in the article on whale tail. Can't really see why. Can someone explain? Or at least lead me to another discussion page where I may ask the question? Aditya04:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
My guess is that there is already one image there that doesn't show someone's face (who might not like being on the "whale tail" page. Why did you want to add this image to the page as well, or were you hoping to replace this image? Protonk (talk) 04:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say it was totally inappropriate. I think that if you have one image of a whale tail where you don't have a "personality rights" issue and one where you do, it makes sense to only use the one without the issue. That doesn't mean that the image needs to be removed, per se. If you want to use it over the other (for some aesthetic reason), then I would suggest downloading the image, cropping it, and uploading a cropped version with just the woman on it. that may or may not work out well. Alternately, if you think that the image should be removed from commons, the deletion process there is a little simpler than ours, it isn't too hard to nominate something for deletion there. If you have troubles doing that let me know and I'll see where I can help. Protonk (talk) 04:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Keep in mind that people on that page may still not want two whale tail images, but you shouldn't have the personality rights problem, so the discussion should be simpler. Protonk (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Can I use this image?
I found an image on photobucket that I would like to use for an article, but I am unsure of it's license. The image itself has permanent links for sharing the photo in emails, layout pages, blogs, and forums. This open sharing seems like it might be permissible. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
GA Review Pic Question
Hey, I'm doing a GA review of an article with Image:New Delhi Temple.jpg, for which an editor got someone else's permission. It looks like it's a Misplaced Pages-only pic, which is bad. Can someone check? The emails are on the image page. Thanks. Intothewoods29 (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Seems conflicting to me. Image:New Delhi Temple.jpg is released under CC 3.0 BY-SA, which is compatible with Misplaced Pages (see Commons:Copyright_tags#Free_Creative_Commons_licenses). The same is the case for Image:Akshardham Delhi .jpg. However, not all parties involved with the permissions seem to understand what that entails. CC BY-SA basically means that anyone can share the image, so long as attribution is maintained. If the license holder submits to that but also says "you can use this on WP only", someone is misinformed. It isn't our job to correct that misinformation (in other words, if they have clearly licensed the photos as CC 3.0 BY-SA, then we aren't here to force them to read the license), but we might want to contact the uploaded and ensure that the license is unambiguous. If they meant to release it to WP only, then we need to take the images off commons. We can contact them and get OTRS permission to use the images (or preferably, some OTRS confirmation that CC BY-SA is the license) on wikipedia. If I were reviewing the article, I'd place the Ga on hold until that was cleared up. Protonk (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, if the uploader is active, just point him here and I can talk him through it. If he isn't, you can check Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission. Basically that will tell you to email the copyright owners and ask them if they want to tell WP:OTRS that their image is CC 3.0 BY-SA. If they say yes, then we can wait for that to happen. If they say no: place a PUI tag on the wikipedia image and nominate the commons images for deletion and remove them from the article. Does that clear things up? Protonk (talk) 19:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_October_27#Image:Bride-two.jpg about whether the English Misplaced Pages ever requires model releases. The picture in question shows a clearly identifiable woman at a private party, standing in her underwear with a fake penis strapped to her head. Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people would require a model release (that is, permission from the woman to publish pictures of her in her underwear on Misplaced Pages) on the essentially moral grounds of unreasonable intrusion into privacy. The apparent consensus at Images for Deletion is that model releases are at least highly desirable, if not actually required. However, no explicit policy seems to exist on the English Misplaced Pages. Does such a thing exist? Should it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Given the large volume of automated transfers that occur between English Misplaced Pages and Commons, it would be a good idea to either harmonize practice between sister sites, or else articulate how the different standards would apply here and implement measures to prevent this class of images from getting bot-transferred and subsequently deleted. Durova06:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it should exist, and copying the Commons policy would make a good start (per Durova). One item I can see would be potentially contentious is anonymising images. I read the Commons policy as saying that if an image has identifying features obscured it negates the personality rights issue, but we should decide if that's appropriate for the en wikipedia.
I'll also repost a few starting points for discussion I made on IfD -
1) How identifiable does someone need to be to trigger deletion, on a scale of full face to paper bag?
2) What counts as embarrassing, what cultural norms do we go with, etc?
3) Should we adopt a policy of blurring or obscuring identifiable parts rather than deleting the whole image?
4) What exactly is a private space and how much trust do we put in uploaders to identify whether photography was permitted?
For the record, I would focus on people presented in a negative context rather than people who are identifiable. In other words, I would focus on the BLP / libel issues which appear more prominent rather than the personality rights issues which primarily address limits to commercial exploitation. Dragons flight (talk) 09:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree, and the commons policy has a bit on that, using the example of a photograph of a young girl used to illustrate obesity. The guideline is that if she's identifiable then the caption "An obese girl" is derogatory and shouldn't be used. However, if her face is blurred then it's acceptable use. The localtelevisualscandalrags do that all the time, showing people from the neck down with an ominous voiceover about the health scare du jour. Orpheus (talk) 13:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
A lot of this problem is lessened by the choice of more professional images. For example, if we wanted an image to illustrate obesity, it would be better to get a high-quality image of:
A (somewhat) well-known person who has publicly spoken about their own obesity
A rally or meeting of an organization dedicated to helping obese people. Or, an obese person speaking at such a rally
We shouldn't just randomly go out on the street, take a picture of someone at random, and slap it on the article. The problematic photos being discussed - of a random, private obese person, or of a random woman at a party - are not at all the best images that could be used in their settings. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
rfc
Do you all think that this idea should be incorporated into the existing WP:Image use policy, or as a separate page? Overall, I'm leaning towards a new section in the existing policy, but I'm not committed to any particular outcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd be glad to see it in policy, if that's consensus. With regard to the question of editing/blurring v. deletion, on a practical level that usually comes down to how much time and effort anyone is willing to invest. Keeping on top of image deletions in general is always a challenge. So on a practical level over at Commons, a noncompliant image gets kept if somebody took the time to fire up Photoshop or GIMP and perform edits that make it compliant. I've done that occasionally when I'm going through deletion requests when there's enough encyclopedic value and no good replacement exists. But that slows things down and it simply isn't feasible to make that a requirement for every image that might be rescued. Durova08:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for taking this one up, WhatamIdoing. Nice job so far. Only suggestions I'd make would be a) integrating Durova's comments from above regarding blurring (in other words, it's a permissable option but don't expect someone else to do it for you) and b) linking explicitly to the commons policy and adding in something about how keeping the two in harmony is desirable. Orpheus (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The "Requirements" section of the policy states two minimal requirements, one of which is to "Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the source) and information on how this could be verified. Examples include scanning a paper copy, or a URL, or a name/alias and method of contact for the photographer." This would seem to indicate that all images require source data but attempts to request source information for Image:Paterson bridge construction.jpg recently have been thwarted on 3 separate occasions by two different administrators who deleted {{di-no source}} tags, arguing that public domain images don't need source data. Should the policy indicate that PD images are exempt from the source data requirement or was the removal of the tags inappropriate? If the former, this seems to fly in the face of WP:V. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I personally will only remove a "no source" tag if the source is self-evident: things like logos, book covers, and the like where you can figure out the source simply by looking at the image. --Carnildo (talk) 00:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If you dont have a source then how can you prove it is public domain. All images must have come from somewhere (even if it is a secondary source like a website). Except as Carnildo says apart from something like a logo or book cover you need to meet WP:V. MilborneOne (talk) 09:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Using photos from Architect of the Capitol okay?
I'd like to use some of the great photos of the Capitol Visitor Center shown on the Architect of the Capitol website for United States Capitol Visitor Center, which really needs an overhaul. Unfortunately, I'm unsure if these would be in the public domain. I would assume they are, because I know an AOC representative takes all the photos. Can someone confirm to me that these are usable? No artist renderings will be used, only updating photographs.
Why do we need all that information for photos that are clearly PD?
A photo of someone who died over 100 years ago is clearly now in the PD if it was taken while that person was alive. Why do we have to provide a bunch of information about it, like who the photographer was and where the original photo is? If we have no way of getting some information, it really shouldn't stop us from using an image that we are clearly allowed to use. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Is it PD? If the photo was take in 1907, first published in 1924 with the copyright renewed in 1952, and the photographer died in 1987, it will still be copyrighted until January 1, 2020. If the photographer delayed publication until 1979, the image will be copyrighted until January 1, 2057. --Carnildo (talk) 04:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, if a non-US photo was taken in 1907, first published in 1930 and the photographer died in 1930 then the URAA would have restored the copyright and it will not expire in the US until 2025. But we don't need hypotheticals - there's plenty of stuff that's more than 100 years old that's still under copyright. I can't, for example, transport Image:Valkyries with swan skins.jpg to Commons because it's still under copyright in Sweden - and that image was published in 1893. Haukur (talk) 08:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In short, verification. If the legitimacy of the known data about the image is questioned, any additional data can be useful in researching the issue. For example, if someone notices that the subject of the photo didn't exist at the time it was purported to have been taken. It also serves the general purpose of media archival beyond that of establishing license, for the purposes of automated image retrieval, image geneology and research, and tracking down higher quality versions. Dcoetzee08:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Tagging Help Needed!!!
I need help with correct tagging two pictures correctly and was wondering if I could get any help from anyone. These two pictures are keeping an article from recieveing a GA. For further information please contact me through my talkpage Juthani121:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Feedback on image use
Sorry if this is the wrong place, if so please point me toward the right one. I'm reviewing Go, Cubs, Go for good article status and my only sticking point is the use of Image:Take Me Out To A Cubs Game.jpg. IMHO it would not survive a NFCC #8 challenge but in general I find image policy on the confusing side. If anyone can offer some feedback about the acceptability of the image in that article I'd appreciate it. Otto4711 (talk) 20:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Automated Image transformation from one wikipedia to another
Hi, Is there any way I can automatically upload the images from one aricle (say for example from English Misplaced Pages) to another Misplaced Pages (say for example Tamil) with the same copyright notice by using any automated tools. If so how can I do? Appreciate if some one could help on this issue. Thanks in advance. --Umapathy (உமாபதி) (talk) 15:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Options to not see an image says "Misplaced Pages is not censored, and the community will in general not be prepared to remove content on grounds of being objectionable to some people. Misplaced Pages will also not use specific disclaimers within articles warning readers of such content.", and suggests that users likely to be offended can either tinker with their browser settings, or .js user account settings, to set up work-arounds for themselves personally - without removing "objectionable" images from the project in any fashion.
Misplaced Pages:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored likewise says that "However, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links where they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis or masturbation). Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness, but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal of content."
I've hit a stumbling block as people have often removed (black and white, not "over the top gruesome" or anything) images depicting a notable person's death; for example Charles Whitman or the bodies of the soldiers killed in Operation Red Wing; while pictures of dead soldiers from World War I are easily used, as are those of Holocaust victims. I think it's a hypocritical double-standard to allow images of dead Rwandans, but not dead Americans - for example, and would encourage a note on the IUP page noting that WP is not censored, and as long as images are not used solely for shock value (ie, if there is a "nicer" image we could use at Electric Chair than something terribly gruesome, we should use it), they should be included in the article. I don't want to enter an edit-war with people who complain about "Think of the soldier's family!!!", we don't think of the Holocaust victim's family; we show photos of death, it's as simple as that.
You are wrong. You are putting graphic images of recently deceased persons published by the killers in the biographical articles of the deceased. This has no correlation to other depictions of death anywhere else in Misplaced Pages. SJSA23:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
(This is the person currently revert-warring over Operation Red Wing, for the record), SJSA -- why does the recentness of a death make it any less appropriate to include an image? They are of historical value, freely-licensed by as-Sahab (admittedly, an extremist media source), and demonstrate the subject's death. They are not "graphic", there is no twisted detail of a ruptured spleen exploding over their face, they are simply dead bodies lying on the ground following a firefight. Sherurcij23:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
You are the one engaging in the edit war, but its not about the Operation Red Wing article, I have not been editing that article. I have an issue with you putting the images on the biographical pages of the three men. I warned you on your talk page hoping to prevent it but you seem adamant about undoing my edits. How about you knock it off until there is a discussion.SJSA23:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This is a touchy issue and context is everything. If the article is primarily about the death itself, then a photograph may be appropriate. If the article is about the person or about another topic that mentions the person such as a company, band, for famous family, the photograph is usually not appropriate in that article. In articles like Charles Whitman, it's a tough call because the article is primarily about his murder spree and the aftermath, which includes his own death. In this case, the decision is best left to the editors of that article, not by policy. Dispute resolution is a better forum than this talk page for handling that particular example. There is also WP:HARM, in particular, as it applies to the families of those depicted. A photo of recently killed soldiers which is likely to cause additional grief to family members is more likely to be opposed by editors of an article about the battle that killed them than a photo of a battle 30 years ago. Again though, this is a matter of the consensus of the editors of that page, not a matter of policy interpretation.
The only image use policy I see coming into play would be copyright/fair use, and in these cases, the policy would be the same if the people depicted were dead or if they were just seriously injured and died of an unrelated cause later.
Oh, on the point of being hypocritical: Different editors edit different articles, and the consensus of the editors of a particular article over the inclusion of a particular image may be different than the consensus of a different set of editors discussing a different but similar picture in a different article. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 00:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
On another note: If you do see a consensus evolving across most of the articles regarding the issue of depicting dead people, then write a Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages essays about it as a subpage of your user page. When the consensus becomes even stronger, move it to "Misplaced Pages" space and when it becomes stronger still, get it promoted to guideline status. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 00:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, rather than writing a whole new guideline however, I thought this might be an issue better piggybacked on the general IUP - similar to WP:NOT Censored, simply stating that Misplaced Pages does not censor images simply because they depict uncomfortable subjects. It's something that comes up a lot on anatomy-based articles and such - and it would be good to hammer out a guideline to post on this page - for all manner of editors to be able to point and say "You can argue it's unprofessional, or violates WP:HARM, or whatever - but you can't say "such a picture doesn't belong on WP". I'm not looking for a ruling on the specific case I mentioned -- just trying to kickstart some guideline/policy discussion. Sherurcij00:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of personal dignity (as already stated in this policy), presentation matters. For example, how identifiable are the individuals in these photos? A couple of essentially unidentifiable bodies lying on the ground is probably fine for Misplaced Pages. A close-up of a single face twisted by rigor mortis is probably not.
As for the sweeping assumptions being made about the family's preferences: Not all family members are going to feel the same way. Some won't want any photos of the body anywhere. Others will want them shown to every possible person (perhaps, for example, as an anti-violence campaign). Many will have mixed feelings, or different preferences at different times. We should not base our editorial decisions on an assumption that all "right-feeling" relatives of the deceased will necessarily feel the same way that any individual editor will. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC) How many hours ago was it that Craig Ewert's suicide was broadcast on television?
I have to ask something that ties this into other conversations going on around WP. Namely that all this dialog is fine and good, and I do 100% agree that there should be common sense and respect for the family, however, any potential policy we might add aside, would be trumped by "fair use". I may not always agree with some editors opinion that fair use means "Take whatever you want - it is all fair!" but at it's core it is the concept. Any image that is out there can be used to illustrate a point irrguarless of what the author or copyright holder may otherwsie want. Tie that into the fact that Misplaced Pages is not censored and most of what would be proposed would be shot down. Certainly if we were not allowed to use images would would we have an article on The Falling Man? On the other side, and would seemingly be more blatant use of images such as that, we have the Suicide article which, surprisingly, is fairly absent of death photos. The only ones are located way down and are "historical", military related images. Of course that brings up the issue of images such as Image:Yesenin in coffin.jpg which is very specific, Image:Girl coffin.jpg which is really vuage, or Image:Carol Ann Kelly 12 yrs in her coffin.JPG that is used via "fair use" in an article, not about the actual girl in the photo, but about Emma Groves. I guess a better question is, if we were to adopt a policy specific to "death" images would it be along the exact same lines as the Misplaced Pages Fair Use policy? And I don't mean specific to free or non free images, I mean should any image depicting death, for example, "meet general Misplaced Pages content standards and is encyclopedic"? Should an image that depicts death be "used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding"? And then, if used in an article such as Suicide, should there be a limit to how many images depicting death can be used? And would you define human death images vs non-human death images and their uses? Such as Image:800px-White-backed vultures eating a dead wildebeest adjusted.jpg vs Image:Vulturesfeasting.jpg? I think these are all legit issues and questions that for sure would need to be addressed if there were to be discussion on these type of images. Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Fair use is a completely separate consideration, and it won't always be relevant. Fair use is exclusively a consideration of copyright law. Don't let the "everyday" words in its name mislead you: Fair use is "use that is statutorily permitted under copyright laws without the consent of the copyright holder, and which the politicians decided to call 'fair' because 'copyright exemption in favor of motherhood, apple pie, and all of the members getting re-elected' was unwieldy". It is not "use that is fair". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if you got the gist of what I was saying. I know the concept of fair use is complicated and many Misplaced Pages editors try to un-complicate it by using the philosophy that we can take any image and claim it under fair use. Because of that no matter what kind of image policy we have it may be pointless because some editors will just cry of "fair use". It really does not matter if it is an invalid use of fair use because if someone said "The image is a violation of our 'death' image policy" there would be vocal crys of "It does not matter because fair use applies to all images". If you want some proof of this look at some of the CSD criteria, in particular i9, which is for any copyright violations, and excludes any image that has a fair use tag on it from being considered a copyvio. So imagine we have a "i15 - Death image" csd worded the same way. In essence it negates the policy it is based on and hands it off to another policy. This is not really meant to be a discussion on FU but I wanted to bring up that it does relate in the long run because if we did adopt a 'death' image policy it could be ignored simply by slapping fair use on it. Agree or disagree is not the issue, it is what happens already with images and will no doubt happen again in the face of any new image policy on one specific form of images. Soundvisions1 (talk) 14:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be saying that some misguided editors believe that invoking the magic words "fair use" allows them to circumvent every image-related policy or guideline on Misplaced Pages, from WP:BLP right down to image placement.
I'm saying that whether or not an image should be deleted on copyright grounds has absolutely nothing to do with whether an image is being used in an appropriately encyclopedic way. There is no copyright-based exemption to BLP. There is no copyright-based exemption to WP:IUP#Privacy rights. There is no copyright-based exemption to WP:IUP#Displayed_image_size.
Sure: people will make up stupid excuses to get what they want. Not every wikilawyer is a clever one. But if we write, "We do not care to have any photos of children being murdered anywhere on the encyclopedia, even when the image would not violate someone's copyright" then the fair use argument is utterly irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
You said "You seem to be saying that some misguided editors believe that invoking the magic words "fair use" allows them to circumvent every image-related policy or guideline on Misplaced Pages, from WP:BLP right down to image placement." And you are correct. That is precisely what I am saying. The key idea with Misplaced Pages is that there is no "publisher" that was hired who, in turn, hired a main editor who, in turn, brought in a set of sub editors to oversee specific areas. This is all user created content and any editor can edit anything they feel like editing. Likewise Admins can oversee any sort of deletion and add their voice to it so if they feel, for example, an image is useful they can deny a CSD i9 and add a FUR. Combine that with no hard set of "rules" and we end up having all sorts of discussions such as this one. Yes, there are "guidelines" that are trumped, supposedly, by "policy" however even those are tossed aside in two ways - overall we have the "Ignore all rules" policy and for images we have the "Non-free content criteria" policy. I really try to "follow the rules" and have stated that I may disagree with some of them but, because they are "on paper" here they should be followed, and that is in blatant disregard of the "Ignore all rules" policy. Call me a rebel. I am not arguing about the right to privacy at all, I agree with it. But it really does not matter what I think, or what you think. What will ultimately matter is if Misplaced Pages lays down clearly worded policy that does not"avoid instruction creep" and admits that some parts of this wiki do, indeed have to be a bureaucracy, concepts such as the one being disussed here may not matter. Ok, they will "matter" but the moment someone feels otherwise and they invoke "Ignore all rules" and at that point what is there to say? It is like Pleading the Fifth. Also in reguards to WP:IUP#Privacy rights, at this point it is only a proposed addition and if it is added there will have to be a new CSD created to deal with violations of "Moral issues" and just do not see that getting too far. Straying from the death image topic a bit, but still relating, how would you deal with File:Graner, File:Sabrina-Harman.jpg or File:AbuGhraibScandalBrown55.jpg for example? And despite there being tags such as {{di-no permission}} editors will get asked why that tag is being used because, if the images are uploaded under the "I created this" they are licensed with "I, the creator", "I, the copyright holder" or "I, the author" and that means, as has been suggested to me, "the source is, quite explicitly, the uploader, and all are labeled as free content." So images such as File:Jewish wedding Vienna Jan 2007 003.jpg and File:Wedding at First Baptist Church of Iasi - Buna Vestire.jpg would be above any "Privacy rights" issue as they were "self created" and, assuming good faith of course, must have had permission to take these photos and releases from the people in them. My point is not to say this is not a good idea, I think it is needed. How to enforce it becomes the greater issue. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I do not share your opinion that Misplaced Pages's existing procedures are inadequate for handling this problem. I do not believe, for example, that when a copyright violation is detected, that admins and other responsible people throw up their hands and say, "Oh, some ignorant person misused the term "fair use", so I guess we'll let that clear copyvio stay right there."
I also do not share your opinion that every single item in a policy or guideline requires a matching criteria for speedy deletion.
I think you are significantly exaggerating the problems involved in giving advice to editors about using images of dead human bodies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
(copied from here) No objection to pics from me on their own. I think deleting, or preventing, pix of dead risks absence of important information. Can you feature an article on the Holocaust without dead? Or the "Blackhawk Down" story? Or (I haven't looked at it) Bataan Death March? Most of the pages I've looked at are dealing with other issues & there's only so much room (really) for pix without turning the page into a photo gallery. How important is the death to the page? How important is showing it to understanding the issue? Unless it's fairly critical, leave it out. TREKphiler07:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Well that is part of the discussion overall. I don't think there is a real need to "show" a suicide in an article about suicide because in the larger sense suicide results in death. So the argument for only showing someones grave could be made as ti shows "death" as the aftermath of suicide in the same way an image of a body outside of that coffin could. You might say "dead is dead" and if the object is to illustrate death do you place a limit on how to do that? In articles about specific forms of death, events where mass death occurred, or specific deaths of specific people, an image may very well be needed. One other very important issue is that this is a wiki - it is user created content and there is no real editorial oversite, no "the buck stops here" person. Because of that the 10 or so users discussing this issue here may not represent the user who will read an article and remove an image because they find it "offensive" in some way. Nor may it represent the users who feel more detailed and explicit images are needed in an article. It may not even represent how admins, faced with IfD/Pui or CSD noms of an image, will read into various policies and guidlines. These are just some things to consider. Soundvisions1 (talk) 14:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
It's a question of general versus specific subjects, the article suicide should probably be illustrated with a watercolour painting or something similar, just as we have strived to do to minimise controversy over sexual topics quite often. But an article on Virginia Woolf should definitely include a Public Domain photograph of her suicide, regardless of whether it's "patriotic" or "her relatives might suffer mental anguish" - such as is claimed with photographs of dead soldiers (of ANY country). Sherurcij01:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
List of Free licenses
Where exactly is the list? All I can find on the Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags page are: (a) a list of guidelines, (b) a list tags to use, and (c) a list of things aimed at creators, and which I don't understand. There is not a list of acceptable licences for using pre-existing material. Jubilee♫clipman04:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
In general, galleries are discouraged in main article namespace; historically, such galleries are more often deleted than kept. As a result, there are relatively few namespace galleries in the encyclopedia and good reasons must be given for creating them. The determination of whether a gallery should be incorporated into an article or created at the Commons should be discussed on the article's talk page. Consider instead linking to a gallery on Wikimedia Commons – see this page for more details.
Note that it is not recommended to use animated GIFs to display multiple photos. The method is not suitable for printing and also is not user friendly (users can not save individual images and have to wait before being able to view images while other images cycle round).
Fair use images may never be included as part of a photo gallery, as their status as being "fair use" depends on their proper use in the context of an article (as part of criticism or analysis). See Misplaced Pages:Fair use for more details.
You've been repeatedly informed of this. The policy clearly states that a good reason must be given for inclusion of galleries in mainspace articles. Not a single article had a good reason given for why the images belonged in the article. If you want to keep the galleries you need to make a case on an article by article basis as to why that article truly needs a gallery.--Crossmr (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"The determination of whether a gallery should be incorporated into an article or created at the Commons should be discussed on the article's talk page." This says to me that the person wanting to change the status quo - be it to add a new gallery or remove an existing one - is responsible for starting the discussion before the action happens. This means removing first and responding to angry editors later is not the way to go. Besides, policy is derived from consensus not the other way around, and if the other editors of a given article are in agreement that the gallery should stay, then it is up to you to use logic to convince them it should go or take it to dispute resolution. It is not the time to be WP:BOLD and remove the galleries because they don't follow the guideline. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 22:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Crossmr, you've been repeatedly informed that your unilateral deletions without any single discussion are not a consensus from editors who actually contribute to build articles nor from stated policies. Don't dishonestly say that there is no single discussion on talk pages for the inclusion of galleries. You did not even bother to check the talk pages of Patbingsu, and and others. Your threatening comment is also very much absurd.--Caspian blue22:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Your comment does not help to solve the different interpretations and enforcement on the image policy. I've been creating gallery pages on Commons, but the current issues are not the matter. --22:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It's fine to be bold and delete a gallery in according with WP:IUP, but if another editor objects to the deletion, then the proposed deletion should be discussion discussed on the talk page. Galleries are discouraged on Misplaced Pages, mostly because Misplaced Pages is not a repository of images and because collections of images are usually better handled through a link to a Commons page or gallery. Having said that, there are instances where the use of a gallery is appropriate, usually where a succession of images can demonstrate a concept better than words or a single image. For these reasons, davidwr is correct when he notes that this policy does encourage that the issue be discussed on the article talk page. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
The galleries being removed by Crossmr (talk·contribs) are exactly the kind of galleries the relevant section of this policy is designed to discourage - little photoblogs of subway station interiors, multiple generic external shots of the same building and other images that add no encyclopedic content to the project. There is no "scorched earth" approach to all pictures on these pages here, just removal of superfluous content. I've pointed this out to Caspian Blue, but he seems unwilling or unable to grasp the spirit of this policy, and the reason it is being applied to various Korea-related articles. Deiztalk00:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Those do sound like the type of gallery that belongs over at the Commons, not here, but there still needs to be consensus for the deletion. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 00:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Images should be interspersed throughout an article, to illustrate various aspects of the subject. For example, for an article about a castle, there could be photos of the facade, moat, grounds, etc. However, if the article is not long enough, a few representative photos that all illustrate different aspects of the subject rather than all being different shots of the same thing can be quite appropriate. The aggressive removal of galleries seems like a personal thing, something like "revenge" or "teaching another editor a lesson," rather than any kind of effort to improve our content, articles, or project. If an article isn't long enough, let's work together in a positive, collaborative manner to expand it, then intersperse the photos in the article's text, obviating the need for a gallery in the first place. But simply rampaging through WP removing galleries, mostly in Korea-related articles, doesn't send a good signal, and undermines our fundamentally collaborative process. Badagnani (talk) 00:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Galleries shouldn't just consist of random images of the subject, and the lack of space in an article is not really a good justification for a gallery. The extra images should all be uploaded to the Commons, and introduced into the article as space permits. As for your allegations of revenge etc., perhaps you could read WP:AGF. Accusations on either side are not helpful. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 00:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
An excellent comment. Certainly the photos should not be random, as I stated above, but illustrate various key aspects of the subject of the article. For a castle, for example, there are many aspects, such as the facade, moat, grounds, interior rooms, etc., and the photos may be placed within the article in the various sections of the article. If an article isn't long enough, a few very carefully selected photos (trusting our editors to have good judgment on this) may be used down below, in a gallery. If common sense is exercised at all times, we'll have no problems. Regarding allegations of "revenge," I've been at WP long enough to know what I'm seeing when I see a removal campaign like this one. It's meant to prove a point, shown clearly by the lack of participation in the individual discussion pages at each article. Badagnani (talk) 00:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus already exists at the policy level. no local article consensus can override that. I'm not required to further seek consensus before editing inline with it. I'll ask you to keep your personal allegations to yourself. Unless you have some evidence in the form of diffs that I've stated I'm going to revenge against korea. Misplaced Pages is not a photoblog, webhost, travel guide or anything else. I'm still waiting for someone to make a case on the gallery you guys continue to push back in to the article. The policy already dictates how the situation can be resolved. Instead of attempting to resolve the situation some editors have engaged in edit warring against the policy. If you want to include or restore the gallery make a case for it.--Crossmr (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll repeat it again since some people still seem to be missing the key phrase: good reasons must be given for creating them. None of these galleries were created with good reasons. This is why WP:IAR exists. People were free to be bold and create them, but then they were questioned. My removal was another editor questioning them. Questioning them does not require that I create talk on the article's talk page. Since policy dictates that a good reason should be given before their creation and none was given, the onus is on the person who wants to restore them or add them to an article to give that reason, and that reason would have to be accepted by consensus. Once a gallery is deemed necessary for the article, you can't just go and put any old image in it, since galleries are only added out of necessity for good reasons any picture added to those galleries must adhere to that good reason. On the patbingsu article several editors discussed what images should be in the gallery, but not one of them actually demonstrated why the gallery was necessary to the article. So far the only thing we've heard is "the articles are small", well that isn't a legitimate reason to add a gallery to an article. As far as I'm concerned the only reason to add a gallery to an article would be (as an example) in a situation of a subject having some very unique and special architecture that is very prevalent through the entire site. That is the only kind of situation where a gallery in article is necessary. Making it pretty or filling it up, doesn't count. Random images from a site don't remotely qualify, which is what all of these galleries (except the patbingsu one, as I said, editors talked about the images, but never made a case why it was necessary) were.--Crossmr (talk) 01:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Kindly moderate your tone and refrain from using all capital letters. I have stated several times, just above, the reason for including several photos in a single WP article, giving specific examples. Common sense is really a very important fundamental aspect of our project, which we should exercise as much as possible. Badagnani (talk) 01:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
All capital letters? What all capital letters? The only thing I put in capitals was the link to IAR. I have no problem with there being several photos in a single article. Plenty of articles have it. However the amount of images needs to be balanced with the prose, and none of these articles had any balance with the prose. Most articles were only a few sentences, if that, and none of those images should be presented in gallery form except in very unique and special circumstances. We don't wall paper and article with images just because we took a trip somewhere. That is what I removed from these articles.--Crossmr (talk) 01:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I have stated more than once, just a few inches of text above, that the images are generally carefully selected by our fellow editors. In many cases, using common sense means that we need to trust our fellow editors, in our collegial, collaborative spirit that exemplifies Misplaced Pages. I agree that we should not use photos as wallpaper, which would mean covering the article from top to bottom with photos, in a purely decorative fashion that does not add demonstratively to the encyclopedic quality of the article or to the understanding of the subject for our readers. Badagnani (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I see no evidence that that is the case. Other than the patbingsu article every article had the gallery added in one fell swoop with no discussion. You claim that good faith should be assumed in keeping them but assume bad faith in the removal, as you clearly stated a few inches above. It is a 2 way street. So far you've made 2 unfounded accusations against me and I'll ask that you either support them or retract them.--Crossmr (talk) 01:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I think you guys should cut Crossmr some slack. The policy doesn't outright forbid galleries, so this isn't a case where he has license to come in adn remove them en masse in the face of opposition. But neither are these examples of what we would like to see in good articles. Most of the galleries he has removed are of the "I-spy" variety--undifferentiated, unencyclopedic and unrelated to the text. Some, like the bibimbap or other dishes, could be usefull as pictures of variations on a theme. But even those would need to be policed. Sandwich has (though not in a gallery) 4 different types displayed on the page. It seems reasonable that other foods may have a similar proliferation of images. But some of the others (multiple building photos) don't belong in these articles. There is a guideline that suggests their removal. Actually going off and doing the removing shouldn't result in the suspension of WP:AGF or opposition for the sake of opposition. Look at these articles, see which ones benefit markedly from galleries and keep those. The ones that don't, help him remove them or more them to commons. Protonk (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Removal of galleries - Arbitrary Break 1
To all: Be careful quoting policies as it pertains to material added in the past. The policy at the time the material was added may not be what it is now. If, for example, the "galleries are discouraged" policy wasn't there in 2004, and someone put up a gallery in 2004 without any discussion, then it's hard to argue "policy says this gallery can be deleted without discussion." Besides, other than introducing delay, discussion won't hurt. In general, if a call for discussion is going to lead to anything other than an immediate "um, we all agree with that, what's the point in talking about it" then not discussing first is harmful. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I didn't send any of the uploaders nasty notes, or remove them with any kind of bias. If policy changes, articles have to be changed to reflect policy. We don't grandfather in things like that, which is why we often have bots running to make stylistic changes etc when policy does change. I felt this was a task that couldn't be done by a bot (due to the inconsistent nature of the formatting, sometimes html, sometimes wiki, sometimes slightly different headers, etc)--Crossmr (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I think you are missing my point: My reading of the following: "The determination of whether a gallery should be incorporated into an article or created at the Commons should be discussed on the article's talk page," says that in all cases you discuss before you change the status quo. I understand how others could read this to only apply to adding galleries not deleting them on the grounds that those who added them should have discussed first. However, if they were added before the policy changes, then expecting them to discuss first doesn't make sense without a time machine. While a reasonable person might say of a recently-added gallery "the person who added it didn't follow policy, so I'll just remove it without discussion" you can't make that argument for historical material. I guess what I'm saying is: Even if you disagree with me on the meaning of the two sentences in the policy, I hope you agree that if the pictures were there before the policy included that text, the onus is on the next person to make a change - either removing pictures, adding pictures, or removing the gallery - to discuss it before making the change.davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Its unreasonable to expect a user to take a policy page with hundreds of edits dig through to find out when the relevant text was added, then go to an article page and look through the diffs on that page to find out when the gallery was added, compare the two and then edit based on that.--Crossmr (talk) 03:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps so. So why not err on the side of caution and boldly discuss rather than boldly edit? The former is much more polite and has practically zero risk of running afoul of policy or anyone's interpretation of policy. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Because my understanding is that policy has community wide consensus. I shouldn't need to get further consensus on something that has consensus. Would you discuss BLP issues on the talk page of an article before reverting them? Or discuss newly added but unsourced text before removing it or even tagging it with a fact tag? I don't think so. It is why we have things such as WP:BOLD. The policy page stated they were inappropriate, I saw no discussion, I removed them. I don't think wikipedia requires I get out charts and graphs or discuss things which I can reasonably assume to have been discussed before editing.--Crossmr (talk) 04:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
If the BLP page had something along the lines of "The determination of whether text in an article about a person is harmful or not should be discussed on the article's talk page" then yes, I would say "discuss first, remove later." But that policy doesn't have language like that. This one does. It's my reading that the community-wide consensus specifically argues for discussion before taking action. You read it differently. That's a fair disagreement and something worth discussing, and it points to a need to rephrase, assuming of course we can come to some agreement of what it means as it's written now. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Except you're still working under the assumption that I had the foresight to consider that the galleries may have been added before the text in the policy. Hence my point above about charts and graphs. I can only take the policy and the pages at face value and not seeing any talk I felt there was no appropriate discussion before hand so didn't feel the need to leave talk on those pages before removing it. If the policy page only had 10 edits and the articles only had 10 edits, sure easy for me to compare..but this policy page has hundreds of edits. I've proposed a rewording below--Crossmr (talk) 04:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
The view expressed by Badagnani et al is the concensus (having just been busy creating galleries at Champmol). Pointless galleries should go, but not in a provocative fashion. But the guideline, which was clearly written with now-extinct gallery-only articles mainly in mind, badly needs updating for the current situation. But anyone who thinks Commons is the whole solution here is way wrong - images should go on Commons, but will be jumbled up with all other sorts of images, and out of the control of this project. Gallery pages on Commons cause more problems than they solve, as the images are usually missed. What people want on Commons is the categories. Johnbod (talk) 03:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
There is discussion above about clarifying the policy in the summer of this year. How out of date is that? And probably 99% of the galleries removed were pointless galleries and only the one at patbingsu showed any hint of having discussion or thought put in to the photographs there. Champmol has some very unique features though I would discourage any duplication in content between the images and illustrates the time for which a gallery is appropriate. Signs at subway stations, 2 degree angle differences on buildings, and small food variations are in a much different category.--Crossmr (talk) 03:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree, but there are ways of doing it. I've seen several discussions on the guideline, but none seem to lead anywhere.... It seems to be much as it always was. We don't I think have any links to the articles being discussed here, do we? Johnbod (talk) 03:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Photos with two-degree angle differences on the same building should have the near-duplicate photo removed. I stated that just a few inches above. That instance would fall very much within our common-sense threshold, which should govern most of what we do at WP. Badagnani (talk) 03:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes and we still have to deal with the imbalance of images over text. We have another policy dealing with that WP:NOT. Articles with very little text and several images are basically image repositories which wikipedia is not. Galleries are rarely appropriate because of the imbalance in the text created. Champmol is okay because of the uniqueness of what is being shown and the larger text sections it has.--Crossmr (talk) 03:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
The first one I find from Crossmr's contributions is Lotte World, where the 3 photos - 2 in a gallery - all give very different views. I must say that doesn't seem an unreasonable way to get photos into a very short stub, though I'd have settled for 1 & 3 myself. Johnbod (talk) 03:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Hit my contibs in the link above and you can see most of the articles with the above edit summary. Hopefully we can come to a conclusion here--Crossmr (talk) 03:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Look for yourself pal. No 2 World Trade Center Seoul is not a good edit either - he removes both photos of one huge building. I'm not going to look at more, but there are more than 2 degree differences being removed here. Johnbod (talk) 03:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, because there are only three sentences in that article and 7 images. Misplaced Pages is not an image repository which is what that article was being used as. This article has 2 sentences and 9 images .--Crossmr (talk) 03:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
But just removing all images of one building, because they are in a gallery, and leaving multiple images of another building because they are not, is not the way to do it. Your example is a good one :), but the ones I found myself were not that extreme. Johnbod (talk) 03:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
The only images I left in any articles were ones that were interspersed in the article with the text. If the text can't support the sheer volume of images in the article, they shouldn't be there. There is/was text somewhere about moving excessive images to the talk page until such a time that there is sufficient prose to support the inclusion of that many images. People are more then free to do so. The vast majority of galleries I've removed have been subway stations and those were similar to the buildings. 2-3 sentences and 6-7+ images--Crossmr (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
These were the majority of galleries removed from articles: , even compare the pictures. Is one platform significantly different or unique from the other? No. There are over 200 stations on the seoul lines. Is that ticket machine special to that station? No. How about the information board? other than the local map, no. Heck are the platform images from the 2 different stations really that different? On the other hand the galleries you've worked on in champol show distinct and special images of the subject. The subway stations were having anywhere from 2-9 images in their galleries and all were pretty much of this caliber.--Crossmr (talk) 03:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Basically, this seems to boil down to, "I'm going to continue to follow my interpretation of the manual of style and remove all galleries, no matter whether any other editor believes the images are valuable, and, despite having been asked to do so by several editors above, I will not engage in prior 'Discussion' or consensus." I'm uncertain whether further discussion will interest you in engaging in our project's fundamentally collaborative, collegial, and deliberative manner, which is a central part of our "culture." Badagnani (talk) 04:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
You still seem to be having some trouble with WP:AGF. Did I say that anywhere? I'm stating my position and defending it by engaging in debate. That is the way policy is formed, reinforced and changed. This is rarely done in a few hours. To this point no one has even proposed any rewording to the relevant section of the policy for further clarification--Crossmr (talk) 04:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Rephrasing to clarify needs to wait until there's some agreement about what the existing words mean. You and I seem to be at odds over that very issue, and it's something that needs to be hammered out before it is reworded. The section probably should be tagged though, so people know it's under discussion. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
We can simply form a new consensus here at the policy page if need be. Even if we can't 100% agree about the past wording, we can propose new wording we can agree on and take opinions and consensus over a period of time.--Crossmr (talk) 04:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Proposed rewording of policy
Existing wording - click to show/hide
Photo galleries
In general, galleries are discouraged in main article namespace; historically, such galleries are more often deleted than kept. As a result, there are relatively few namespace galleries in the encyclopedia and good reasons must be given for creating them. The determination of whether a gallery should be incorporated into an article or created at the Commons should be discussed on the article's talk page. Consider instead linking to a gallery on Wikimedia Commons – see this page for more details.
Note that it is not recommended to use animated GIFs to display multiple photos. The method is not suitable for printing and also is not user friendly (users can not save individual images and have to wait before being able to view images while other images cycle round).
Fair use images may never be included as part of a photo gallery, as their status as being "fair use" depends on their proper use in the context of an article (as part of criticism or analysis). See Misplaced Pages:Fair use for more details.
Please keep this section specifically to the rewording. Further discussion of the above topics can continue above.--Crossmr (talk) 04:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Photos galleries of free images are mainly used on wikipedia to illustrate unique facets of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text alone. Care should be taken to intersperse images through-out the text whenever possible. Editors should also attempt to ensure there is a proper balance between images and text in an article as wikipedia is not an image repository. If an article contains excessive images through the use of a gallery or otherwise, those images may be moved to the talk page if it is felt that they may have good future use.
Examples of good galleries that enhance an article(we should have 2-3 examples here)
Oppose rewording - Common sense, as with most other things at WP, should be an important guiding factor, and "Discussion" and consensus building (as many have commented above) should be utilized in favor of the campaign (primarily against Korea-related images) that has recently been conducted by the proposing editor. Badagnani (talk) 04:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
This wasn't an oppose/support if you want to change or alter the words, feel free to do so. This proposal was made to build consensus. The policy is obviously unclear. I'll remind you for the fourth time to read WP:AGF as your continued unfounded accusations and insinuations aren't doing anything to further this discussion. Nor does your continually repeating we should discuss and build consensus when all you seem to be doing is making these kinds of unfounded accusations. I'm in Korea, I like Korea (hence why I was editing korean articles, and even expanded the text of several of them) however I don't like unnecessary and excessive clutter in articles (trivia sections, image repositories, etc). Had their been no objections I would have moved well beyond Korea related articles.--Crossmr (talk) 04:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment: There are two classes of pictures we are talking about: Free and fair-use. Fair-use images can only live on article pages. They are also subject to deletion if they become orphans, which greatly limits the utility of "storing" them on talk pages as ]-links. There will be occasions when a gallery of non-free images is appropriate. For free images, the images should be transwikied to the commons anyways, and while not conventional, there shouldn't be any policy against putting thumbnails of images on talk pages. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I've updated the text to refer to free images obviously. It is my understanding that non-free images can never be used in galleries as that violates fair use. The text I'd read about putting images on the talk page suggested putting them in a gallery tag on the talk page, that would prevent them from being orphaned.--Crossmr (talk) 05:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment: One of the issues of contention above is whether wholesale deleting of galleries without prior discussion is appropriate. I think this can be best answered by the theme of "if there is likely to be any opposition, discuss it first, otherwise, be WP:BOLD," a theme that, with a few exceptions like removing obvious copyright violations, runs throughout Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Any change to the policy wording should reflect this. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
That is outside the scope of the proposal on new text for the policy. That issue can be covered above where we're already discussing it.--Crossmr (talk) 05:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
However much you'd wish it were the case, in fact that issue is at the crux of this matter. If you'd simply agreed to use "Discussion" (as you've been asked to do many times now) there really would be no problem. Badagnani (talk) 05:07, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
My version:
In general, articles that are only galleries are discouraged in main article namespace; historically, such articles have mostly been deleted, with a few exceptions such as Gallery of armed forces flags. Gallery sections within articles may be justified if there is a good reason why several images are needed, and there is not enough space alongside text, or the images are best appreciated grouped together. Images should be carefully selected and suitably captioned to explain their relevance. If in doubt, the determination of whether a gallery should be included in an article, removed, reduced or dispersed, or created at the Commons, should be discussed on the article's talk page.
Comment This doesn't address the issue of balance between text and images and in fact seems to encourage image repositories by stating galleries should be created if there is not enough space beside the text.--Crossmr (talk) 05:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
