Talk:Church of Caucasian Albania

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A fact from Church of Caucasian Albania appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 20 December 2008 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know
- ... that the origins of the Church of Caucasian Albania date to St. Eliseus' efforts in the first century AD to spread Christianity to the area?
A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2008/December.

Misplaced Pages

To Parishan about the Massaget

Parishan Massa get is derived from Maz Saka= the Great Saka, it is a word of Iranic root. The Albanian Maskout and Massaget are not necessarily related. Also Khazars came much later and there is no evidence that there were any tribes called Massaget among the Khazars, and moreover no evidence that they came to the Caucasus. Tell me exactly where in the sources says such a thing. Thanks.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Eupator and parishan what is the difference of opinions here?

Eupator says that this is OR. Please explain why is this. Parishan what do you have to say against this. I am not well read in this subject, but is it all about the autocephaly? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Eupator needs to explain the reason for the OR tag on talk, before attaching it, according to the rules. He has not done so, therefore it is not clear what he considers to be an OR. Grandmaster 06:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't need to do squat but in case it was not clear for you the first time i'll repost it again: Original research per the overindulgent use and interpretation of a primary source-Kaghankatvatsi: Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary.2C secondary and tertiary sources. Have a nice day.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that Grandmaster is misquoting the source? Becaue he gives the source. The only thing that might mean original reseearch is that he misquotes the source, or he is saying things which are not in the source. is this like that? Please give an example --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't know, don't care. I'm not a historian, it is not my job to examine primary sources. Primary sources are not to be used as references in most cases, especially controversial ones. In this article a primary source is used to reference pretty much most of it. Read the guideline.-- Ευπάτωρ 22:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

What is the reaction of Grandmaster to this? I try to mediate and solve this problem.I just think this issue is not that big and difficult to solve.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I just wanna know precisely which section in Eupator's opinion needs secondary sources. Grandmaster 05:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

The History of the Country of Albania, a history, probably not by a single author, covering more than 4 centuries, is clearly not a primary source as defined by WP:OR. It is a common mistake to confuse "primary" with "very old". Also, it is only "interpretation" of primary sources that is not allowed. Reporting what they say in summary form is allowed. Having said that, confirmation of material from a more modern history is desirable, although one suspects they are able to do little more than repeat the history with some qualifications, background and nuances. The relevant section, which is not in fact very helpful, is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. Our guidelines are pre-occupied with fringe science, BLP issues and the like & offer little or no guidance on dealing with early medieval monks. I have removed the tag as inappropriate. Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the above discrepancies, you shouldn't have removed that tag. There is an overindulgence in quoting MK, who essentially gathered every piece of information there was on Caucasian Albania, fact and legend, and dumped it into several volumes. Unless we're just representing traditional views, perhaps 85% of the information on this article should be coming from secondary sources or at least specialists who have sifted the fact from fiction. Using him so extensively is akin to having the articles on the Crusades based solely on the works of either Muslim or Christian historians.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

That may well be the case, but WP:OR is not the guideline dealing with this. Whether we have a tag for dealing with this situation I don't know. I repeat, the book is a secondary source by WP definitions, though I'm sure not the most reliable one. Johnbod (talk) 21:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

my humble opinion: this is not OR, unless anyone can shows that the source is interpreted. One can also opposes grandmaster's Parishan's edits if they had misquoted the sourcwe. But that should be shown first. Upator and Marshal Bagramyan are of course allowed to bring up sources which have an opposing view. Again I do not think it is OR unless proven with solid arguments. I invite all editors to shake hands and reach an agreement on this article. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 04:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In my understanding, the objections are probably caused by sections about St. Eliseus and St. Bartholomew. I clarified that the story about St. Eliseus is a very old local tradition, and the section about St. Bartholomew also makes clear where the info comes from. Those stories come from old chronicles, and whether to believe them or not is up to the reader. Local Christians certainly do believe in them. I think we just need to properly attribute the information to the sources it comes from. Grandmaster 05:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I can list just a series of mistakes that I found on a first passing of the article. For example, we read "It was then that he arrived at a place called Gis where he built a church, the first one in the Caucasus, today commonly believed to be the Church of Kish north of Shaki, Azerbaijan." Commonly believed by who? The Church of Kish before its restoration (i.e., destruction) had an original altar which gave that section of that church as being Georgian, while having the rest with Armenian engraving and text, which was desecrated and removed in its entirety and the Georgian altar was removed to rebuild a new altar and was exhibited at the Azerbaijan International.

Second, the image of the church builds some sort of connection to a Church which never really existed; the way it is used here is original research. In yet another mistake we read, "associated with the present-day Baku" Check the source, and where the word Baku is used. And what about St. Bartholomew? See the use of the picture: having no pictures of any Church of Albania to add, Parishan added an image of a Russian Church. It is extremely unlikely that any Albanian Church was ever build there, as when the population converted to Christianity, the Albanian Church was attached to the Armenian one and it would defy logic or common sense to have any church that far away. The source used is the Russian Diocese of Baku. They were interviewed during the so-called restoration and the authorities put words in their mouth.

Third, more on Parishan's misrepresentations: "The archbishop was considered the head of the Church of Caucasian Albania, and he had traditionally been ordained by the Armenian Catholicos until 590, when Caucasian Albania proclaimed its own locally ordained patriarchy." The Armenian Catholicos would consecrate only those from the Armenian Apostolic Church; do you know of any other pope or Catholicos, who could consecrate archbishops or priests from an independent church? We also read, "However in 551, due to plundering raids of Khazars on Caucasian Albania, the seat of the archbishop was transferred to Partaw." See the contradiction, in fact the only time the Church of Caucasian Albania would ordinate was after the capital was moved to Partav, the so-called new Albania. To quote Robert Hewsen's very apt remarks on the relationship between the Armenian and Caucasian Albanian Churches:

That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of fancy. "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians" in: Samuelian, Thomas J. (Ed.) Classical Armenian Culture Influences and Creativity. Chico: Scholars Press, 1982.

Albania had been reduced to a geographical connotation by the fifth century, yet the reader would never know this in the manner which the words "Caucasian Albania" is abused around the article. This section alone is a mess in and of itself. The concerns I highlighted above are only the tip of the iceberg; do I really have to pile more evidence?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The OR tag was added because of "Original research per the overindulgent use and interpretation of a primary source-Kaghankatvatsi: Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary.2C secondary and tertiary sources (see near top this section). That was a mistaken reasoning for the tag, as explained above, so I removed it. If the article is felt to have actual OR, or to use partisan modern sources in an unbalanced way, an OR or POV tag may be appropriate. I have no view on, or knowledge of, the issues myself, so won't comment. Johnbod (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Your earlier explanation is flawed. The "History of the Country of Albania" is a primary source. It is an historical document and it is not a "history" in the modern meaning of the word. As such, its content can be subject to varying interpretations and an over use of that content could easily result in OR. The validity of the tag being used here will depend on whether the alleged OR is real or not - finding that out is the purpose of the talk page. Meowy 03:19, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Reread the WP definition, linked above. Unless the WP article on the book is grossly misleading, it is a secondary source in our terms. Even if it were a primary source, "overuse" would lead to POV, not OR - for that "interpretation" is needed. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

There were no Armenian inscriptions in the Church of Kish. Local tradition links it with St. Eliseus. As for the rest, here's a good source:

C. J. F. Dowsett. The Albanian Chronicle of Mxit'ar Goš. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 21, No. 1/3. (1958), pp. 472-490. It says:

After a reference to the History of the Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci (Kalankatuaci), the chronicle begins with a list of the patriarchs of the country containing indications of dates not found elsewhere and possibly taken from patriarchal or monastic records long lost to us.

And the chronicle itself says:

List of the patriarchs of the Albanians established after the Lord Elishay who came from Jerusalem:

1. St. Shup'xalishoy.
2. Matte.
3. Sahak.
4. Karen.
5. Pand.
6. Lazar. He built Lazarapat in Belamejk' and the holy church of Pantaleon, and built after an awe-inspiring vision. And from St. Elishay to St. Grigor 300 years. And then the Albanians asked the Armenians for St. Grigoris, consecrated patriarch at the age of 15 and killed by the barbarians, as Catholicos. It was the lOlst year of Rome [A.D. 3481). And these are those who became patriarchs in Chol:
Zak'area.
Dawit'.
St. Yohan.
Eremeay.

But in the year in which the Armenian era began [ll July 552-10 July 5531), they transferred the seat of the catholicosate to Partaw, and established as Catholicos Lord Abas, who held office for 23 years. And it was a custom of the ancients to write the address of a letter in this manner: "From the Catholicos of Albania, Lp'nik, and Gol . . .".

Grandmaster 07:30, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the problems can be solved this way. This is also something I want to propose for the Atashgah article. Instead claiming something as a fact and then refer to the sources, it should be clearly mentioned in the text that the Sources (X, or Y) says this, and the local tradition says this. This way no one suggests that the statements are universally accepted, but are according to the mentioned sources. Yet the sources are mentioned. The problem of interpretation is solved this way.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

That is certainly a helpful step, but really, more modern, and neutral historians should be used as well. Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Any suggestions? Introduce some modern sources here. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

There were indeed Armenian inscriptions on the church. That it was so was documented on the other article. It is pretty much obvious from this picture here that the inscriptions were desecrated and desecrated so poorly, that the tool marks are still visible. The "restoration" also removed the altar and in its stead this was placed in the middle, reproducing this, the only relic ever found attesting any Caucasian Albanian architecture. Dowsett's quote is irrelevant and your claims that there were no inscriptions are as frivolous as the Azeri claim that Armenians never lived in Nakhichevan. Parishan added the following not me: "The archbishop was considered the head of the Church of Caucasian Albania, and he had traditionally been ordained by the Armenian Catholicos until 590, when Caucasian Albania proclaimed its own locally ordained patriarchy." – which is accurate, but the point is that they were ordained by the Armenian Catholicos because the Albanian "Church" was recognized by the Armenian Church as one of theirs and dependent on it.

Johnbod, the article on The History of Caucasian Albania is misleading and erroneous. For example, the source which Grandmaster has used above gives a conclusion on why people assume there were multiple authors: "There is, however, no need to reject the name Kalankatuaçi and Dasxurançi by assuming, as Professor W. B. Henning first suggested to me, that this refers to the name of Movses' monastery in Kalankatuk' while Dasxurançi refers to his native village, we can take Kalankatuaçi and Dasxurançi to be one and the same person." The article say nothing of the book itself, such as the fact that it covers the the beginning of time to the present day. It's convenient to attribute it to different authors, because first it clouds the fact that it was written by an Armenian and from a region which now is disputed. Also, if there were multiple authors, it explains why different periods are described being witnessed by different authors, giving weight for what there is in it. The fact is that the source is primary and secondary at the same time; primary particularly because the sections cover religious materials. What's wrong in this article is that it excessively uses this single work and specifically from sections which are most open to reinterpretation, particularly because those could be considered as primary sources. Note that philosophical works, religious writings like the Bible, Torah, Koran are considered as primary sources.

This article, I believe, is beyond repair, full of personal connections of different events, many of which are totawlly irrelevant. But others of course are free to disagree. And Grandmaster, the names on the above list were Armenians, and this is what Dowsett says in the beginning of his work: "The land of the Aluank' or Caucasian Albania, whose geography and customs already attracted the attention of Strabo and Pliny, represents the easternmost part of the Armenian sphere of influence." It's beyond belief on Dowsett has been abused and his works have been manipulated on Misplaced Pages; the same work was used by Atabek, where he wrote, "In Albania, Xacen, part of the old province of Arcax," but the same work place that in context on page 482 when it writes: "By this earthquake much was ruined in places in the cantons of P'arisos and Xacen" On his footnote to clarify what is Xachen he writes: "Late name of part of pr. Arçax, forming at this time a small independent Armenian principality (p. 482, note 4)" The quote from Atabek referred to what was said about Khachen, a principality of Caucasian Albania, but Dowsett believed that principality was Armenian. A reminder to all editors not to distort Dowsett's, nor any other authors', works.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

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