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Comment on Gavin Collins viewpoint

It should be noted that the only reason this RFC/U was started was that the last two times Pixelface's 3RR-like behavior was reported to ANI (including the ones on Dec 30) it was strongly suggested to RFC/U the case since there was no admin action that could be immediately taken on that alone. --MASEM 13:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I think he's right about the Desired Outcome being too vague, though. Black Kite 13:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Since this RfC/U was indeed started only after PF initiated a one-sided edit-war on WP:NOT for the umpteenth time, and because the other four points are only collateral concerns, I'd agree to just focus on stopping PF from directly editing WP:NOT as the desired outcome, with no restrictions for policy&guideline talkpages. PF's other behavior, even if considered annoying by some editors, already falls under arbcom's E&C 2 admonition to "work collaboratively and constructively with the broader community". – sgeureka 13:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't necessary limit it to WP:NOT, since PF's done the same on other pages (WP:WAF). However, if it is truly the case that the other points are covered by the E&C2 case, then this suggests we should be opening a arbcom incident case on PF. Personally, I don't think it goes that far, but the behavior of the other four point is poisonous to discussion and a WQA did not correct it. (Figuring out how all this goes together may be part of putting together a resolution, so while I agree its vague, I wrote it that way on purpose to prevent biasing a result that I may desire but not merited by the facts as presented.) --MASEM 13:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • (e/c) What Masem said (Misplaced Pages:Plot and WP:WAF are the two examples that spring to mind.) Black Kite 13:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Seeing that some editors take issue with the perceived bad faith regarding PF's intentions and future behavior, my thinking was that if PF was restricted from solely editing WP:NOT but would then move to edit-war on other P&G pages (as it seems, but I can't prove it yet), it would become apparent that (1) bad faith was justified and (2) it would be easier to restrict PF from editing the other P&G page in the future if necessary, citing the precedent of this RfC/U. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I'd (now) consider it enough progress to restrict the undeniable worst instead of losing ourselves in inactionable details and accomplishing nothing at all. – sgeureka 14:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Just 2¢ from the sidelines, but... It seems that limiting the restrictions/sanctions to WP:NOT would be more of a corrective action. It would give PF a chance to rethink their style of arguing their POV on the issue but still allow them to contribute to related P&G topics.
    If the full blown pattern moves to other P&G topics, then the restrictions/sanctions can be revisited and expanded. That is assuming that there isn't enough evidence to support the contention that the pattern is already well established on other P&G pages. - J Greb (talk) 14:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • If editors feel that he is edit warring, then what provisions are there against those he would be edit warring with as it takes two to edit war. Sincerely, --A Nobody 15:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • When it's one editor against an army, sanctions are normally applied only to the one editor. This is a classic case of one editor editing against consensus.—Kww(talk) 16:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • The same question/comment came up in E&C2 about TTN's edit-warring, and arbcom's imposed restriction on only TTN seems to have stopped the edit-warring. I expect that a similar restriction would also work for PF's edit-warring on WP:NOT. – sgeureka 16:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I still wonder though, given the RfC on Gavin as well as the arbcom request on TTN, if we should simply move to an Episodes and characters 3 rather than all these separate threads? --A Nobody 16:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm unconvinced that would be useful, partly because not all these issues are directly related to E&C, and also because the previous example of C68-SV-FM etc. shows that trying to conflate different problems into one RFAR can be very messy (and extremely time-consuming). Black Kite 16:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Anon IPs, even of former non-banned/blocked editors, are free to comment - there's no restriction on that. However, if the former user is blocked and evading that, that's a completely different issue. --MASEM 16:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree that, given how close a new FICT is to being set as well as other more recent work towards consensus from several sides of the issue that an E&C3 case would be both premature and looked unfavorable by ArbCom. --MASEM 16:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • We need to avoid conflating civil disagreement over fiction with the behavior of Gavin and Pixelface: namely, edit warring to push their view point. The ends *never* justify the means, for Gavin, Pixelface, or anybody. Randomran (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • If it were two editors edit-warring, then I would agree with you. Even a quick perusal of the policy pages that PF has edited recently, and only going back in the history a few pages, sees ten different editors reverting Pixel's edits - Masem, Bignole, Future Perfect At Sunrise, Cameron Scott, Jack Merridew, Collectionian, Sceptre, Ckatz, Randomran and myself - and seven of those only once each. Black Kite 16:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Are there any instances of any inclusionists reverting him? Also, part of what concerns me here is that if there is edit warring going on, then I wouldn't excuse that and as I said in my comment on the main Rfc page for him that I did once ask him to strike a word he used, but in terms of degree I think what's being alleged against him is far less serious than what is being alleged against someone else at arbcom, i.e. edit warring on a policy page is low in the list of things that would concern me than say mass nominating literally hundreds of articles for deletion seemingly indiscriminately. I don't see how that can be regarded as okay if this is not. Neither edit warring nor tendentious deletion nomination should be acceptable. We should not be partisan in this as I believe Randomran hints at above. Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, I agree - the edit warring, though disruptive, is more irritating than anything else. I don't think anyone is asking for serious sanctions such as blocking or banning, they just want him to cease that particular disruptive behaviour. Black Kite 17:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Maybe he would be amenable to an RfC on Plot and agree to go along with whatever outcome it has? It might not hurt to try that and maybe we could get broader community input that way too? Best, --A Nobody 17:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Is there anywhere where there is an outcome to it, though, in glancing through that link, I didn't see (maybe simply overlooked) a "Conclusion" of sorts. Best, --A Nobody 17:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Obviously there isn't a summary or conclusion to it, but I think at the time that the clear consensus favored keeping PLOT though suggesting alternate wordings to address some issues, that no one proceeded to seek a conclusion (nor are RFCs required to, though it is good form). However, the important part is that several non-common editors to WT:NOT provided their input to gaint he wider consensus. --MASEM 17:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • What we really need is a community wide discussion as the handful of editors who comment in those sorts of threads seems disconnected from the much larger number of editors who create and work on the sorts of articles in good faith and the millions who come here reading it (for what it is worth, I think articles should not be entirely in universe and support adding reception and creation sections to character and episode articles, but I support actually doing that not just deleting the articles when they can be expanded and revised). But as regards Pixelface, I think some editors only make things worse by mocking him a la this unconstructive and rather incivil edit. One might support and say he is unconvinced by Pixelface's oppose, but to have a support per someone's oppose is just not right. Imagine if inclusionists started having "Keep per TTN" as a rationale. What would that add? We need to keep a mind into not just how Pixelface edits, but how others treat him and if others deserve some blame for why he does what he does or for escalating rather than deescalating. Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Part of what Pixelface gets in terms of mocking towards them (which I agree occurs from certain editors) is a result of how PF edits (as per the RFC/U), though without looking through PF's history, it's a chicken-egg problem of which mocking editor came first. Still, sometimes the best policy is to turn the other cheek, though if there are editors consistently harrassing PF, they should be dealt with the same warnings/restrictions (if any are placed) on PF. --MASEM 17:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, I agree, no one on any side of these issues should be harassing anyone or making mocking comments. We should not tolerate it period. Mature editors should not allow themselves to be baited and should not feed into unconstructive edits with unconstructive edits of their own. Best, --A Nobody 17:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • (Ec) As much as I see where you're coming from, we're getting increasingly off-track. Feel free to start a new thread at WP:NOT, but let's keep this RfC/U first and foremost about Pixelface's edit behaviour please. – sgeureka 17:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • That's the thing, those he is allegedly edit-warring with are engaging in incivil behavior with him as seen here, i.e. it's a two sided matter and thus others' behavior toward him is problematic as well and needs to be addressed. Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • If you (as a supporter of PF's view on fiction) agree with PF's "non"-supporters that PF is the source of edit-wars, and that edit-warring is problematic under any circumstances, then we have a common ground of agreement and can work towards finding a solution where incivility and views on fiction no longer matter. – sgeureka 18:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that neither Pixelface nor the editors cited by me above should be incivil or engage in edit warring; that multiple editors are cited above could suggest some sort of bullying of Pixelface or putting him in a corner as well, however. As I commented to him and to someone else in your RfA, I do not tolerate incivility from anyone, even those who share the same inclusion ideas as me. Even though I opposed your RfA, I wound up refuting others who opposed you (got to love the irony), but I think that's important, i.e. that we don't just tow the partisan line. We can disagree, sure, but not to the point of insults. We all have to stop at certain points and I urge Pixelface to not edit war if he is, but I also urge others to engage with him constructively. We have to take both sides into account. No one, whether inclusionist or deletionist, should be edit warring. No one, whether inclusionist or deletionist, should be engaging in personal attacks. For what it's worth, when I asked him to strike an unhelpful word he used against you, he did so. Maybe all we need is for civil requests to be made toward each other? Best, --A Nobody 18:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I definitely share Gavin's concern, because it was something I saw when a lot of people were engaging in his RFC/U. e.g.: it's one thing to punish someone for their behavior, but it's something else to punish them for their viewpoint. Being a stubborn negotiator may make you look like a dummy, but it's someone's right to negotiate that way if they want to. For that exact reason, I'm not crazy about this comment. And I think it would be a good idea for Masem or one of the other initial submitters to remove the paragraph about discussion style. Yeah, I'm not a fan of long posts either. But it really just takes this RFC/U off topic. Randomran (talk) 19:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Arb Break

I think it needs to be clear that Pixelface and their reverts are very different than other editors reverting other editors. Obviously, first off, editing warring of any form is bad, that's a given.

In normal mainspace content, as long as content doesn't immediately fall under the domain of vandalism, nonsense, and inappropriate content (BLP violations), neither side of a dispute should edit war; say newbie editor A makes a change that is generally against consensus but doesn't harm WP for it being there, experienced editor B reverts, and editor A reverts back (despite WP:BRD); at that point, editor B should really start a discussion and not revert back despite it being the "wrong version" until they either confirm consensus that the original way was better or to convince A why not to include.

Policy and guideline space is very different because people constantly refer to these to help resolve the mainspace debates among other things; while it is possible that pages may get protected at the "wrong version" due to edit warring, pages should not change at all until consensus has been sought to make the change. Thus, if newbie editor A alters a p/g which experienced editor B, assuming good faith, recognizes has no consensus, should revert that change. At that point, because p/g pages should remain stable and at a version that is considered to have consensus, B should open discussion to explain why A's change is inappropriate as to stem a further revert by editor A. (and I will admit this hasn't been done in all cases, but when Plot's being removed by the same people involved in previous discussion, I think it's fairly obvious that discussion either was either ongoing or recently concluded). Now, if A continues to make the change (as pretty much only Pixelface has done, none of the other editors cited above) without establishing consensus, other editors should revert that. Or in other words, p/g pages should not be changed from a long-existing "correct version", and edits should be done to maintain that, until it is shown that the consensus is there to change it. This still allows for BOLD additions that don't get reverted, though usually good form to explain why you made the change at the talk page as to prep discussion in case it does. (And of course, edits to copyedit, remove or fix vandalism and the like are all appropriate).

So, short answer: there are probably isolated instance of editors both changing PLOT and reverting it where discussion was not initiated at some point during the process, but p/g pages should not be changed in the first place until consensus is shown or via the WP:BRD pathway. If you subtract out Pixelface's contributions and reverts from that, the actions of editors cited above would have likely not caused any disruption (that is, there's no need to correct this behavior by remedies), but this should not be considered as approval of this type of behavior - we all need to make sure there is discussion on p/g pages after the first edit or revert and no later than that. However, Pixelface alone has shown a stubbornness to toe the line of 3RR revert warring on PLOT and other places without discussing the change after the 2nd revert. That is not appropriate at all and that's a key point that needs to be addressed in this RFC/U. --MASEM 06:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

  • This is a relatively nuanced point but I want to be clear that the policy is silent on this. WP:EW, WP:PROTECT and others don't treat policy pages differently from article content. What I do want to point out is that this isn't a case of Editor B reverting editor A. This is a case of Editor A reverting editor C, D, E, and F across a half dozen policy pages over a period of weeks and months. It isn't so much that other people aren't "edit warring", but we can't really call it that if Pixel continually reverts and the editors responding are different each time (and not acting in concert). Protonk (talk) 06:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
    • FWIW WP:POLICY at this section outlines the basics of what I was talking about. --MASEM 07:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Very well, I stand corrected. Protonk (talk) 07:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
        • What do we do with those who are reverting Pixelface as well as multiple other editors a la...
            • Collectonian reverting DGG and Hiding: , , and
            • Masem reverting Hobit:
            • S@bre reverting Colonel Warden:
          • I would say Pixelface has probably done the most reverts, but editors C, D, E, and F, have also reverted in addition to editor A, editors B, G, H, and I? I'd have to check the notability pages to see what kind of edit warring we have going on there or maybe someone can make a pie chart or something comparing who's doing how many reverts and what, but I am still not convinced any of this is helpful. Has anyone asked Pixelface if he will refrain from edit warring and does everyone else agree to do so? I really do hope we can all find more cordial means at colloboration from here on out, but so with one last sip of Champagne for the night a toast to everyone. Again, Happy New Year, have a pleasant night and all! Sincerely, --A Nobody 07:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Don't just look at who reverted what. You have to consider each case on it's own.
              • Case 1 (Collectonian/DGG/Hiding) - a three-way revert that included both a language change and a relocation of plot. Yes, that was a problem, and you'll notice that after Ned Scott reverted back to the last stable version and Black Kite protected the page. That was a case of trying too many things at the same time that confused matters, and while active discussion was going on.
              • Case 2 (Hobit/myself) - Hobit's revert was an extension of a string of PF's rereverts in the hours before that, and thus was inappropriate to have been made.
              • Case 3 (Colonel Warden/S@bre) - C. Warden made a change while active discussion was going on, and again, per WP:POLICY this is not an appropriate step.
            • But again, here's the point; it doesn't matter how many editors try to implement a given change, and how many editor change it back - policy and guideline pages should not be changed at whim and particularly to prove a point or game the system, and that is no way to get consensus. It has to be done by communication at the talk page and after a 1RR step, should only be changed if consensus is clearly shown the change is appropriate. That's where it matters, in the rough sense, of how many editors for and against change comes into play, among all other considerations of building consensus. --MASEM 07:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
                • I agree that no one should have persisted in edit-warring and that page protection was appropriate. I wonder if we can do a wiki wide pull or something to get a consensus on plot, because clearly a larger number of editors who add the plot sections to thousands of articles believe we should cover them. For what it is worth, where I stand is not that we should have a bunch of plot only articles, but that we can and should improve them by adding development and reception sections rather than just give up on them and in instances where we can't find sufficient sources to build such sections but are able to verify that the article is not a hoax, then we should redirect as valid search term. Anyway, getting ready to visit family, so Happy New Year redux! Best, --A Nobody 16:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
                  • Let's avoid going down the path of determining policy and guidelines issues here - this is about PF's editing behavior. Starting an RFC (even though there was one in April 08 started by PF) is a good solution, though I would expect that editors abide by the consensus gathered there and not keep trying or shopping for a different forum to get the desired result. PF did start an RFC once so that's at least one positive step. What is not a good thing is constantly changing policy pages without clearly showing that the consensus exists to make a change to longstanding policy. (see WP:POLICY). That's the primary behavior that needs to be stopped. --MASEM 16:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

redux

I thought that Gavin.collins's view was entirely off base and perhaps reflects and misunderstanding of the RfC/U process. Behavior does not have to be blockable to be undesirable. Desired outcomes do not have to be concrete, specific, and measurable to be desirable. RfCs are supposed to be discussions, with some ideas about how to improve things for the future. They are not judicial trials that end in a sentence being imposed on the guilty party. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

While I agree with some of the things he said, these are the main reasons I did not endorse his statement. BOZ (talk) 23:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm with BOZ. Gavin is right that some of this RFC is a little overblown, both in its tone and its focus. But there are legitimate behavioral problems here that need to be discussed and resolved. Randomran (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
That, and Gavin seemed to be saying a lot of the same things that he said regarding the legitimacy of his own current RfC/U, and I didn't want to support that either for obvious reasons. BOZ (talk) 00:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

First proposed remedy

Given that discussion on the page and here clearly shows that PF's editwarring and PF's discussion methods are two different issues, I propose the following remedy for the first aspect, effectively placing Pixelface on a 1 Revert Rule for the key pages

For a period of a year, Pixelface is warned of edit warring on WP:NOT(1). Pixelface is free to make any edits to the page, but if these edits are reverted within 7 days, Pixelface may not re-revert the changes as per WP:BRD without seeking further consensus on the talk page, save in cases of obvious vandalism or editing correction(2). If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not attempt the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed(3). All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action.(4)
  • (1) I don't know if we should limit it to only WP:NOT or include WP:NOTE, WP:WAF, and others; NOT is the key one of recent behavior.
  • (2) This prevents someone from gaming Pixelface if they add something that is accepted on the p/g pages but revert that change much later, and Pixel attempts to revert. And obviously fighting vandalism is a good thing.
  • (3) PF must be allowed to attempt to seek more clarification given WP:CCC after a period of time - we just don't need a new discussion every 2 weeks or every month.
  • (4) While I feel this is a one-way street in that PF is editwarring against consensus, it should be noted per others concerns that no editor should be edit warring policy and guideline pages.

Of course, this may be too wordy and likely can be cleaned up, but as a starting point, I think this addresses most of the concerns. --MASEM 18:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I might support a softer restriction, but I think we need to look at a wider range of policy pages. Pixelface should be free to make any edits to policy pages, but for the next few months he must propose them for discussion and get consensus for his viewpoint *before* making the edit. He is still entitled to revert other peoples' *recent* edits, but he's not allowed to game the system by making a change under the guise of a "revert" across several months or years. I'd apply this restriction to all guidelines and policies, because it's obvious that his edit warring has spilled out onto redirects, WP:OCAT, and so on. Not just WP:NOT/WP:NOTE/WP:WAF. We need to show that it's unacceptable everywhere. Randomran (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Suggestion: "For a period of a year, Pixelface may not make any changes to policy or guideline pages (excepting vandalism reverts, grammar fixes and other uncontroversial edits) without proposing those changes on the relevant talkpage at least 7 days in advance, in order to gauge the level of consensus for those changes. If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not suggest the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed. All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action."
Black Kite 18:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
      • I think that's fair, but we don't want to disarm Pixelface completely: he should be allowed to patrol for bad edits to policies/guidelines and thus be allowed to revert *recent* changes (so long as he doesn't edit war). Randomran (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
        • How about NO editor may make unilateral changes to policy or guideline pages? Really, when it comes to policies and guidelines, pretty much any non-vandalism reverting edit should have consensus behind it. Sincerely, --A Nobody 18:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
          • No other editor has been edit warring. For all of them, the normal WP:BRD process is working. We shouldn't take away peoples' bold editing privileges (and it is a privilege) for the actions of one editor. Randomran (talk) 18:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
            • It seems others are being reverted as well when they try to make unilateral changes (see for example ) and that Pixelface is actually NOT the only one trying to remove Plot (see for example ). Sincerely, --A Nobody 18:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
              • Which is exactly as it should be - unilateral changes without consensus should be reverted. However, at the moment Pixelface is the only one making such unilateral changes on a regular basis. Black Kite 18:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
              • Of *course* people are editing WP:NOT. But to echo what Black Kite is saying, only Pixelface is WP:EDITWARRING. Can you show me anyone who has tried to push the exact same edit more than a dozen times, reverted by nearly a dozen different editors? Randomran (talk) 18:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
                • I agree that unilateral changes without consensus should be reverted, but from a quick glance I see that at least Colonel Warden has also removed Plot, which means it is not just Pixelface versus "everyone," as he does have at least one editor from a quick search who also removed Plot and discussed doing so on the talk page. Pixelface may be removing it more so than anyone else, but he is not the only one to be doing so, i.e. if there is a broader edit war on Plot, he not the only person on that side of the dispute. Some of what I have seen in this RfC makes it seem as if only Pixelface has removed Plot, but that is actually not true. It should be clear that it is not as Pixelface is all by himself in that opinion and effort. Plus, other edits such as this seem a bit discouraging, i.e. why wouldn't we want to let people know there is a discussion concerning that particular on the talk page? Other edit warring by other editors not including Pixelface includes and , i.e. two reverts of two other editors by one editor. See also . Best, --A Nobody 18:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
                  • Pushing the exact same edit twice isn't an edit war. Pushing the exact same edit more than a dozen times, a few times right up to the edge of WP:3RR, is an edit war. I agree we should hold everyone to the same standard, but Pixelface has breached that standard and beyond. There's a difference between Pixelface and others like DGG/Hiding/etc. They share the same viewpoint, but not the same behavior. Randomran (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
                    • I posted below some examples of people other than Pixelface being reverted for removing Plot. Maybe we should make a chart of list of diffs indicating who has done the most reverts concerning Plot? I think Pixelface would indeed probably be on top, but if we added the reverts of him by those listed below to their reverts of DGG, Colonel Warde, Hiding, and Hobit, I don't see how we could fairly say that those reverted the below editors as well as reverted Pixelface aren't in fact also engaging in edit war, i.e. there is a much more participant laden edit war going on for which Pixelface may indeed be doing the most reverting, but for which he is hardly to only participant. Best, --A Nobody 19:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
                      • If you find anybody else who has engaged in edit warring, feel free to name a name. But I haven't seen anything from anybody on the level of Pixelface. Reverting two or three times is not an edit war. The problem is that Pixelface has come back with the same edit over several months, and has brushed right up against the WP:3RR in a couple of cases. See Misplaced Pages:3RR#Not_an_entitlement. Randomran (talk) 19:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
                        • Not on the same level, but as indicated below at least one editor has actually reverted 3 times different editors, i.e. other than Pixelface, which is pretty close to 3RR. Anyway, I saw you reached out to Pixelface and that DGG left him a note too. Maybe we can all find more cordial means of resolving our disuptes from here on out. Happy New Year! Best, --A Nobody 05:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
  • How about "For a period of a year, Pixelface may not initiate any changes to policy or guideline pages without proposing those changes on the relevant talkpage at least 7 days in advance, in order to gauge the level of consensus for those changes. If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not suggest the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed. All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action. Note that this restriction does not prevent Pixelface from performing uncontroversial edits to such pages, or from reverting other editor's changes with a reasonable rationale as long as such changes do not constitute edit-warring. " Black Kite 18:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • And to be honest, no-one should really be changing policy pages without consensus, so this is hardly controversial. Black Kite 18:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Sounds fair. One concern I have though is that it technically allows PF to start a one-month-one-policy-to-challenge crusade so that the same arguments still get rehashed all-around-the-clock by the same people. That's the fault of too many overlapping policies and guidelines though, not PF's. – sgeureka 18:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • "Initiate" may be the wrong word, as in another case on WP:N, PF is attempting to revert a portion of a guideline to a previous version. Also, I still feel that the scope of what p/g this applies to is necessary; if, say, PF should come up with a guideline that is readily accepted that is outside the scope of fictional works, PF should not be prevented in tweaking it or the like. (Also, this begs the question, are p/g pages those explicitly marked as such, or include Wikiproject guidance pages, or what? Limiting the scope would prevent the need for trying to answer this question). --MASEM 18:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I again think it is wrong to make it only about Pixelface. Below are examples of editors who have reverted removal of Plot by editors other than Pixelface.
  • Collectonian reverting DGG and Hiding: , , and
  • Masem reverting Hobit:
  • S@bre reverting Colonel Warden:

Second proposed remedy

I have provided evidence that multiple editors have treated Pixelface in an incivil manner. Thus...

Editors must not bait Pixelface, harass him, or escalate disputes by making incivil edits or personal attacks. Obvious personal attacks and unconstructive escalation should be dealt with by an immediate block as this remedy should be considered a warning and per the outcome of Episodes and characters 2 which noted that editors are expected to work colloboratively and not escalate things.

The above could probably be worded better, but we need to make sure we're not being one sided here. Best, --A Nobody 18:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Incivility goes both ways - however, both sides need to extend the olive branch here. Something on PF's own baiting behavior would need to be added to this. --MASEM 18:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The sarcastic or harsh discussion style is a side issue. But it's a standard that should be applied towards everyone equally -- Masem is right that it applies to all sides. I don't think it's fair to block anyone for incivility without some kind of warning and lighter action first -- so we need to handle them on a case by case basis. But I think it's fair to amend the remedy for edit warring with a broader reminder to everyone to be civil, and that incivility will have (proportional) consequences. Randomran (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, how about:
Editors involved in discussions concerning what Misplaced Pages is not must not bait each other, harass each other, gang up on and bully opponents, or escalate disputes by making incivil edits or personal attacks. Obvious personal attacks and unconstructive escalation should be dealt with by first a warning and then an immediate block as this remedy, which is likely to have been viewed all the major or regular participants in those discussions, should be considered a warning and also per the outcome of Episodes and characters 2 which noted that editors are expected to work colloboratively and not escalate things.
Thoughts? I don't think it's a side issue, but rather partially an explanation of why Pixelface edits as he does. Sincerely, --A Nobody 18:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I think we're making progress. But "gang up on" is kind of vague. Arguably, any time you're the minority viewpoint you're being "ganged up" on. And while I can understand why someone in a minority viewpoint would use edit warring to get their way, being in the minority is never an excuse for edit warring. I think you should just leave that part out, and focus on personal attacks and incivility. Randomran (talk) 18:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the suggestion below is sufficient? I hate to simply make a "Why can't we all just get along?" plea, but maybe all we need is to just decide that we can and we will. Happy New Year! Sincerely, --A Nobody 05:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

How about simply,

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters_2#Parties_instructed_and_warned, "The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute."

I know that fiction editors (from all sides) have had a hard time to follow this admonition in the past year, but it can't be repeated often enough, even if it's just as the occasional sanity check. – sgeureka 18:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this is pretty balanced. A reminder about WP:NPA and WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL couldn't hurt either. Randomran (talk) 18:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I can agree with that. I really do not think it should be that hard for proponents on both sides of this issue to compromise. I would say Magioladitis and I are probably on opposing ends of the inclusion spectrum and yet see User_talk:A_Nobody/Archive_3#Clarification. If we can work together, so can others!  :) Best, --A Nobody 19:07, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Incivility accusations

I'm noting a number of incivility accusations being made, and believe that they are a bit misguided. Pixelface's behaviour has invited comment, and some of that comment is going to be in the form of sarcasm. Was a comment like mine particularly nice to Pixelface? No, it wasn't. Would it be reasonable to start templating civility warnings on my talk page because of it? No, it wouldn't. I'm quite certain that Pixelface's diatribe did far more to help Sgeureka's candidacy than hurt it, and it isn't a crime to acknowledge that.—Kww(talk) 23:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I think the wringing of hands about this from A Nobody is unproductive. The issue at hand is edit warring and refusal to get the point. Simply saying "well, there are two sides to this coin so nothing can happen to Pixelface unless it happens to everyone else" is pretty inaccurate. Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kww or Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Protonk are all available if there is some concern about incivility. Protonk (talk) 23:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Saying that it is only Pixelface is inaccurate and unproductive. If we want to move forward, we must be willing to honestly acknowledge that others have fanned the fires by being incivil to Pixelface and edit warring with him. Happy New Year! Sincerely, --A Nobody 03:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
      • ...I understand your position. Repeating it doesn't help. It also isn't necessary to agree with your position in order to move forward. Protonk (talk) 03:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
        • It's a new year; let us take the bold step of not making 2009 yet another partisan year of conflict. Editors should take steps to reach out to each other as the proactive means of resolving these disputes, not going after some while ignoring others. Editors should not just make things work their way by excusing some editors' incivility while attacking others' for it. Either incivility is wrong for everyone or it is not. Either edit warring is wrong for everyone or it is not. I think Randomran and some other above want to move forward, not regress, not stagnate and have realized that to do so we all have to compromise with and forgive each other. I think we are all adults and we should thus all know that we gain nothing by holding grudges and letting animosity linger perpetually. All of us should start this year fresh and try as hard as we can to work cooperatively. Take care! Sincerely, --A Nobody 03:59, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
          • It isn't "regressing" or "Stagnating" to say that the crux of the dispute is edit warring and that we don't want Pixelface to edit war on PLOT related policies. And it is Pixelface edit warring on these policies--other editors reverting him piecemeal isn't edit warring, its the result of his willingness to edit against consensus. Should there be some other editor who takes it upon himself to revert Pixelface continually, that's obviously edit warring and should be dealt with appropriately. But the fact that dispute exists over the subject doesn't suddenly make all parties to the dispute equally culpable. That's my main point. That's what Kww is trying to get across. It's fine to acknowledge that people treat Pixel like shit sometimes (see my comment on the RfC). Where that results in some problem, it should be dealt with. But this is a comment about Pixelface's behavior. It is not a comment on WP:PLOT generally, nor is it a comment on the ongoing disputes over notability. As such marginal infractions on that turf between editors is extraneous to this RfC and should be ignored. What I see you doing is bringing up these notions "Either incivility is wrong for everyone or it is not. Either edit warring is wrong for everyone or it is not." Those are broad statements of principle, not ways for this RfC to move forward. Edit warring is wrong for everyone. Incivility is wrong for everyone. But that doesn't help us here. It does not follow from those statements that "either we punish all parties for edit warring here or we punish none" because we are not meting out punishment. Misplaced Pages isn't an exercise in distributional justice. We are going to try to create a result that minimizes disruption and comes from consensus. The easiest route out of here would be to get Pixelface to participate. Failing that, we will try to come up with some minimum solution. Should that solution (or a solution that comes from collaboration) include recommendations that we watch for edit warring by all sides, fine, but I am opposed to jamming up the works simply on the basis of accusations of incivility. Protonk (talk) 04:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Thus, the bottom line is Pixelface shouldn't edit war over Plot and nor should those who have reverted him for removing it as well as reverting at least four other users (including multiple times by the same individuals) as cited above. The way to move forward is to remind everyone not to edit war, not to be incivil, and to reach out to each other. It's a new year, I'm drinking my Champagne as I type, and I hope you and your family are too. I wish everyone a happy new year and hope that 2009 will be a far more collegial one than 2008. Have a nice night to all! Sincerely, --A Nobody 05:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
              • The bottom line is not that. Masem wasn't edit warring when he reverted pixel's change once on PLOT. Jack Merridew probably was. Collectonian might have been. There are varying degrees of this and the response should be proportional. Proportionality doesn't mean creating a solution that ignores the crux of the problem. Protonk (talk) 07:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
                • Masem didn't only revert Pixelface's changes to plot, but at least one other editor's as well. The crux of the problem seems to be that various editors disagree about whether Plot should be included, i.e. it lacks real consensus. None of these editors should edit war over it. By now the whole bold, revert, etc. has been exhausted. Everyone should just discuss it, maybe reach out to the broader community somehow to get a consensus and take steps to move forward. I really hope everyone can do that. Randomran, DGG, myself, etc. have reached out to Pixelface. Who knows maybe through those gestures we'll all get somewhere. Take care! --A Nobody 07:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
                  • As I've noted above, WP:POLICY demands stronger adherence to editing rules for p/g pages; changes to p/g that are reverted need to be discussed and agreed by consensus to be kept, and the removal of PLOT thoughout all last year has yet to be shown to have strong consensus to remove. Any editor that has been part of that discussion should be aware of that, so removing PLOT by these editors can be seen as disruptive, with the reversions to the long-standing version as necessary corrective measures. Obviously, at some point if this is done someone needs to start a discussion - if not the one removing PLOT then the ones reverting it should at least try to start something. From this aspect, yea, those of us that reverted could have done more by starting discussion, though I would easily stated that with the reversions to PF's latest removals, the regulars (including PF) of WT:NOT well understand the various issues over PLOT and there's really no point in rehashing the entire discussion over and over. --MASEM 16:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
                    • Because multiple editors have removed it, I wonder in such cases if we are better off then leaving it off until a consensus is reached or keeping it, but noting that it is disputed or under discussion? Best, --A Nobody 03:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
      • To User:A Nobody, I think it's fair to acknowledge that there has been incivility on all sides. But I think Protonk is questioning the "equivelency" that you're suggesting. Two or three reverts one week just isn't equivalent to an edit war once a month over several months, along with repeatedly creeping right up to the edge of WP:3RR without crossing the line. (... and that's just at WP:NOT#PLOT.) If you think that other people have crossed the line to the same degree as Pixelface, then I guess you're entitled to your opinion. But I don't think very many people will see that "equivalency" as credible and we'll have to agree to disagree. Randomran (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
        • As I've said above, I think Pixelface has probably made the most reverts, but just think it should be clear that while those others only removed it once or twice, the fact that at least four others have also removed it shows that it is not a case of one editor versus everyone, rather that there are others who also share his viewpoint. I felt a bit concerned that it is being misrepresented as a totally unilateral war on Plot by one editor, when it is clear that he is not alone in the effort to remove that section. He may indeed have gone about it more aggresively than others; however, I believe I saw him write somewhere perhaps on his talk page that he is not going to edit war any further on it or something to that effect and if what everyone wants is to avoid edit wars and he seems to be agreeing to do so than I guess that goal has been accomplished. Best, --A Nobody 03:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
          • The status of PLOT is not the discussion of this RFC/U, it is PF's actions of rereverting multiple times despite what WP:POLICY states. It doesn't matter if there are others that agree with them, WP:POLICY is pretty clear that exceeding 1RR changes is disruptive and that action needs to stop. Yes, it's clear that an RFC on PLOT is probably necessary but that doesn't not excuse PF from 2RR/3RR removals. --MASEM 03:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Part of my concern with these threads and what makes them unproductive is that they seem to keep splitting down partisan lines. Some will say that TTN mass nominating articles for deletion with tendentious copy and paste nominations that overwhelm AfD is not disruptive and that anyone who starts threads on him should be blocked. Yet, somehow edit warring on a policy page rather than disrupting the mainspace is of such significance that we have to focus on one editor and not try to acknowledge the broader issues, i.e. that maybe it isn't just any one editor's behavior, but a much broader dispute and pinning it on any one or two editors doesn't really resolve the larger issues. If what this RfC as started is about is to encourage him to not edit war, he has already agreed not to do so. I don't see anything gained by not giving him a chance to follow through with it before trying to formally sanction him. Let's give him a good faith chance first. Best, --A Nobody 03:30, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
          • Respectfully, I think you're missing the point of this RFC/U. No one is misrepresenting this as though Pixelface is the only person who has tried to remove WP:PLOT. Of course people agree with his viewpoint, and there are very few viewpoints on Misplaced Pages that would be considered disruptive in of themselves. What makes Pixelface unique is that he is the only one who has edit warred over it -- you won't find anyone with the same editing pattern I showed you above. If he is willing to understand that it is his editing pattern (and not his viewpoint) that is disruptive, and if he is willing to stop voluntarily, then I think that will go a long way to finding a softer remedy. Speaking only for myself, but I'd be willing to consider just a strong warning, with no formal sanctions. But the problem is if him and other editors refuse to acknowledge his breach of behavioral policy. If he insists that he is acting within the norms of acceptable behavior, then I hope he understands that will undermine his credibility as this dispute continues. Randomran (talk) 03:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
            • See User_talk:Pixelface#RFC.2FU. I see no reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's a holiday. let's start things off by assuming good faith. He's not removing it further, he said he won't; if he lies then that's another story, but we should give him a chance just as we would want others to give us a chance too. Best, --A Nobody 03:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
              • "I have promised to not edit WP:NOT during January" is a weak pledge, and nothing that I can see as a substantive step in the right direction.—Kww(talk) 03:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                • He goes further though with "I am also considering not editing that policy, and maybe not commenting about PLOT on its talkpage, for a few months or more." Best, --A Nobody 03:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                  • But we're not trying to silence PF, and talk page input is important (though the way PF approaches certain discussions as outlined in the other points in this RFC/U needs to be addressed separately). Sure, it's PF's choice not to input onto the page, but the last thing we want to is to prevent PF from providing input. But as to the "promise", it's again missing the point of the RFC/U in regards to editing p/g pages. --MASEM 03:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                    • I've made another suggestion to him on his talk page. Best, --A Nobody 03:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                      • Again, resolving the underlying policy dispute is peripheral. Of course people are allowed to dispute policy. This RFC is about his dispute resolution strategy: going beyond removing it once or twice to an outright extended edit war. I think that if Pixelface had an offer that people could live with (e.g.: not outright removing WP:PLOT, but rewriting it), that would go a long way to showing that he had learned not to edit war. But whatever he does, the edit warring needs to stop. You'd be helping everyone if you told him that we respect his viewpoint (even if we disagree), and that he's entitled to advocate for it at talk pages, but that he won't be looked upon kindly if he repeats the disruptive editing for a 14th time. Randomran (talk) 03:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                        • I'm under the impression from his talk page as if he is not planning on removing it further and as you can see DGG and I have asked him to go about things differently and he seems responsive to us. I want to be sure that we don't belabor the point if he's more or less agreeing and wind up putting him in a corner or making him bitter. Best, --A Nobody 03:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
                          • After Gavin's edit wars on D&D tags, we put him on a moratorium for three months. He voluntarily agreed to it. I think a three month moratorium (more or less) suggests a remedy that fixes the crime, without "belaboring the point". If Pixelface shows a better understanding of what he did wrong than Gavin did, then I think that will help a lot. That's why it's probably best to wait for Pixelface's actual response to the RFC. It will show us whether he has truly learned his lesson, or if he's going to avoid responsibility using the 5Ds (Dodge, Dip, Dive, Duck, Dodge). Any effort to craft a remedy will be premature until we see his response. His editing conduct on redirect pages after the RFC began probably doesn't help him demonstrate a good faith effort to improve. But his words on his talk page offer some hope. Randomran (talk) 04:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Question by Pixelface

I've responded in an Outside View thread, but I'm wondering if that's allowed. Should I only make one response in the Response section? Several people have told me about brevity, so how long should that response be? Shall I put a longer statement in my userspace? --Pixelface (talk) 11:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It should probably be removed from there; you should make that known in the Response section. The general view sections of the RfC are normally not designed to include threaded discussion because that is the talk page's purpose. MuZemike (talk) 12:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Am I allowed to respond in the threads above on this talk page? --Pixelface (talk) 06:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, certainly. --MASEM 06:29, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Pixel, a lot of the "rules" of the RfC are meant to protect you. We don't want threaded commentary on the talk page because someone could derail a comment and make it seem to people that a particular comment is more contentious (or, alternately, has more support) than it really does. You 'get' to reply in the "response" section because it gives some priority to your views. This makes sure that the villagers can't just storm in with torches and pitchforks. So if you feel that a particular architectural 'rule' in the RfC stops you from mounting your case, ignore it...sparingly. As for the talk page, like Masem says, yes. The more you participate, the better. As for the length of your statement...that's up to you. Protonk (talk) 02:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Lack of response

I'm concerned that we have a lack of input from Pixelface into this. They have been posting the last several days over at WT:FICT, so it is not like they are not present. Even if it is to reject this RFC/U, some response is better than none to help resolve it. --MASEM 02:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I have not really participated in an RFC/U before, but is Pixelface's input needed for this RfC/U to conclude with potential restrictions to his editing (at least to WP:NOT)? – sgeureka 11:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I would think not, otherwise one could just dodge any potentially adverse consequences by not responding, thus making the whole exercise futile. Nonetheless, I would very much like to get Pixelface's angle on things - as I'm more interested in getting an amicable and mutually agreeable solution to this problem than I am in just putting an editor on restrictions. Lankiveil 12:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC).
My understanding is that it is. The whole idea is that by exposing and discussing the problem, the target of the RFC will have a change of heart and voluntarily undergo restrictions to demonstrate his new-found understanding of what correct behaviour is. There isn't a way for us, as editors, to impose restrictions. That said, you can take a failed RFC to ANI in an effort to get the admin community to agree restrictions are necessary.—Kww(talk) 13:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
A lack of response amounts to contempt for the community. His participation would facilitate an amicable resolution but it is not required for a solution. The comments have been made (and thus this is not a failure); next step, please. Jack Merridew 14:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)