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User talk:Zeno of Elea

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User:Sam Spade

Translation

Just wondering, how did you translate that little bit I posted? Your translation came up really botched.Yuber 03:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An RfA for your consideration

I thought that this might interest you: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship#BrandonYusufToropov -- Stereotek 19:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yuber on Jihad

You may strongly want to take a look at Jihad. Yuber is up to his old tricks.Enviroknot 23:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Good grief... --Chanting Fox 23:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • That was my thought, Charlie Brown. It hasn't been unprotected a day yet and he and "Anonymous editor" are pushing POV edits again.Enviroknot 00:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yet another reason why I should keep my mouth shut... --Chanting Fox 00:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Scare quotes

On a copyeditors' mailing list I read there's been much discussion of scare quotes. Those are quotes put around a word to indicate that it's being used under protest, or ironically. Frex, "Fred Smith claimed that he "invented" the mousetrap" or "Sally Bimbo wore a "fashionable" garment of tinsel and pink fur". The copyeditors feel that this is a current fad, and a cheap stunt. There are better ways to indicate one's displeasure. You have been sprinkling scare quotes liberally over the United Submitters article and the cumulative effect is snark. I agree that there is much that is snarkable in their beliefs and I'm just as dubious as you are <g>. However, if we're writing encyclopedia articles we have to keep a straight face. You can remove the scare quotes or I can. After you, Alphonse! Zora 1 July 2005 07:48 (UTC)

Feel free to edit the article as you see fit. --Zeno of Elea 1 July 2005 19:37 (UTC)
Hi Zeno

1) Fill in your user page so that it is not a red tab 2) keep up the good work --Urchid 3 July 2005 15:48 (UTC)

I am collecting evidence of sockpuppetry and vandalism

....and plan to file arbitration proceedings against you very shortly. BrandonYusufToropov 03:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

great. --Zeno of Elea 03:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
it's taking you quite a while to collect your "evidence." i wonder why. --Zeno of Elea 12:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, that same jihadist guy tries to smear others too by misusing the Misplaced Pages arbitration system, such as user:Strider and I. Don't get intimidated. He and Axon already put me on a VfD for spurious reasons. --Germen (Talk | Contribs File:Nl small.gif) 12:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

BYT and the "poll"

I notice he's created a faked "poll" here and sent messages out to his cronies to try to drum up a false "consensus" on the "poll."

He also is convinced that you, I, Ni-ju-Ichi, and quite apparently anyone who doesn't agree that "NPOV" means "Whitewash Islam wherever possible and only the whitewashed version of Islam that BYT learned is 'correct' despite centuries of Islamic jurispridence" are all the same person.

It's very laughable, but it does appear to be a major hindrance in making sure that these articles are both accurate and NPOV.

If you want to file a Request for Arbitration or Request for Comment against him for this behavior, I would be more than happy to support you in it.Existentializer 15:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, just FYI, this lunatic also seems to be involved. Regrettably he's an administrator. Given his behavior when BYT was reported for 3RR violations as "EnviroFuck" I have no doubt he will be looking for any excuse to abuse his powers, please be careful.Existentializer 15:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
He's now up to more of it:

This is patently absurd, no way could any result of this poll be a "consensus." All the same, if you know anyone you wish to invite to post there, please do so. You have been here longer than I and likely know better who to inform.Existentializer 15:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

User page vandalized

Just an FYI, I've had to clean off the user page of Ni-ju-Ichi this morning. Some anonymous IP vandal had tagged it with a "I think this is a sockpuppet" tag, probably IrishPunkTom or one of BYT's cronies since they seem to love throwing that accusation around anytime someone doesn't vote in lock-step with them.

I am considering filing a grievance against BYT and his crew, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it.Existentializer 16:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

See User_talk:BrandonYusufToropov#Sorry_to_disapoint.... It appears that BYT asked User:Heraclius to collect evidence that User:Ni ju ulchi and I are "sock puppets." The sockpuppet tagging of the user page is probably related. I don't know how the arbcom works either, but I'm hoping BYT follows through on his promise to file arbitration against me. --Zeno of Elea 17:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
If he does, I'll be very happy to speak on your behalf or file a counter-arbitration. This behavior by the Holy Warrior Brigade shouldn't be tolerated and it's completely obvious. After re-reading the request for arbitration filed against Yuber, I'm scared that the Misplaced Pages authorities have let them get away with all this crap.Existentializer 18:09, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I am in with this. Misplaced Pages should not be degraded to a battleground for those cyber jihadis. --Germen (Talk | Contribs File:Nl small.gif) 12:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

If BrandonYusufToropov does in fact take this to ArbCom, I'll also add a statement and some diffs, especially regarding his personal attack violations, on the Muhammad and Jihad articles talk page. However, it should be said that the most important thing in these cases is never to make any serious violations any of Wikipedias policies. Don't ever call anybody ANYTHING, because when it arrive at an RfC or at the ArbCom won't hurt those opposing you, it'll only hurt yourself. The ArbCom is all about violations of policies, and diffs that prove that these has indeed been violated. In this case I can understand why BYT's sitzkrieg is taking it's time. Zeno haven't violated any policies and has quite frankly made some excellent NPoV contributions. Anyway, as a suggestion, I think it might be worth considering getting an Members' advocate that can help you to present the case in the most efficient way. -- Karl Meier 14:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This kind of wikifighting is a chess game, with goal being to see who makes the first mistake first. It's critically important to keep your nose clean if you want to make a good case when this or anything else hits RfC/ArbCom. If you look at what wins/loses at Arbcom, the losing side always has lots of violations of wikipolicies, typically from the early hot stages of an edit war. If you avoid 3RR, Personal attacks, and obvious crude behavior, you'll be more or less untouchable in ArbCom. Your actions can be defended as agressive and bold editing. If you can show that your editing isn't disruptive, while the other side's is. You win. Klonimus 11:10, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
It's frustrating dealing with the islamists, because they have a few admins sympathetic to their side, and they tend not to be too obvious, but at the end of the day, Muslim apologetics can usually be shown to violate Policy and the efforts to keep can be shown to be disruptive. This is kind of like tax or labor law, where there is lots of room to make defensable cases in between lines of policy. Klonimus 11:10, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Family problems

... and pretty serious ones, I'm afraid. So I'm taking wiki-break. (Check my user contribss.) I have no crew, I promise, and I don't know anything abt vandalization of those pages. Prayers, pls. Back eventually. BrandonYusufToropov 14:29, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to hear, BYT. --Zeno of Elea 20:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Offensive and Defensive

I honestly don't care if you're from FFI or you're an anti-Muslim user. But I still see no rational reason for dividing the article into offensive and defensive jihad and putting it in a category of Islamic justification for violence. At least keep your POV'ing in one article.Heraclius 22:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not from FFI nor am I "anti-Muslim." The jihad article was reduced into smaller sub-articles based on consensus. Offensive and defensive Jihad are two seperate subjects, that warrent their own articles. And I did not add the category designation, someone else did that. --Zeno of Elea 01:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

SIIEG

Hello, while your proposal of SIIEG seems like a good idea, I get the feeling the various groups of Islamic editors aren't going to stand for it... respectfully I decline. If it looks like it is functioning as intended instead of simply drawing fire from editors like Farhansher, please let me know.Ni-ju-Ichi 03:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

i don't see what you mean by "aren't going to stand for it." it does not violate any Misplaced Pages policies, as far as i know. i also don't see how it can "draw fire" from other editors. what will someone like Farhansher do? vandalize the SIIEG pages? everything will be done in the open, and I believe that this is a good-faith effort that you should join. --Zeno of Elea 03:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Poll

I believe dab is referring to any link to FFI, mainly the one to the links page to replace the DMOZ. Not just a link to the main page. gren 10:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

OH, i see. --Zeno of Elea 10:54, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


SIEEG-"The Prophet" Muhammad

Just left a note on the SIEEG talk page about one issue that I've thought about in the past. I think SIEEG is a good and worthy idea, if handled as you've suggested...abiding by Misplaced Pages protocols of civility, et cetera. I can be a bit bitchy at times, but would make a special point of holding that in check when working on any SIEEG efforts. As I said, I really don't know how much time I'll be having, but I'll contribute as I can. Anyway, interested in any feedback on the idea I floated on the talk page. Babajobu 13:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Islam

hi Zeno. the projected poll outcome increases my acceptance of linking the ffi links page. However, not 'every registered user' may vote. It's a strawpoll to gauge community opinion. Sockpuppets do not count. Also, accounts with a record of ten reverts and nothing else hardly count as members of the community. The election of the board was restricted to editors with 400 edits. You will note that I applied the same criteria to both parties. dab (ᛏ) 07:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD pollution

Ril enlisted Persecution by Muslims for VfD again, just 24 hours after the article withstood the first VfD. You might be interested to watch it. --Germen (Talk | Contribs File:Nl small.gif) 10:43, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Rules of engagment

Zeno. You seem to be intelligent and have a well trained critical mind that is good for writing articles. Your conduct, attitude and interactions with those who disagree with you falls short of that by quite a bit. Please stop the uneeded and harful combativeness, ruleslawyering, defensive and offensive commentary and tactics that you are employing, deliberatly or not.--Tznkai 14:44, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not need to be lectured on Misplaced Pages rules. If you feel that I have violated Misplaced Pages policy, please specify what policies and provide evidence in the form of diffs. --Zeno of Elea 14:47, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
This is precisly my point. This is not just about rules and policy, this is about the writers rule of engagement. Misplaced Pages only works with a community of editors working together civilly. You have been less than polite and certainly could do much more to get along with others. Play nice.--Tznkai 14:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that I have been polite and civil. If you feel otherwise, please feel free to provide evidence. In the meantime, please note that your unfounded, belittling comments are hardly in line with your own advice. --Zeno of Elea 14:55, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Accusations of hypocracy. Dismissal of conflicting opinions as fundamentalist Islam. Thats just within the last two minutes.--Tznkai 14:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid that you are guilty of hypocracy as you are demonstrating, and believe it or not, those who oppose the inclusion of the cresent moon as a symbol of Islam in Template:Islam do so because of their fundamentalist beliefs against bidah (innovation, change, etc). If you read the Template:Islam talk page, you will see them explain that the cresent moon was supposedly not used during Muhammad's time, so Misplaced Pages should not include it. This is despite the fact that over a dozen Muslim countries include their symbol in their flags, and the symbol appears at the holy mosque of the Kabba in Mecca. It is the universally recognized symbol of Islam, there is no question about it. It is an objective fact that Muslims oppose this due to fundamentalist beliefs of a puritanical nature, and it is really the Salafis (i.e. Wahabis) who are famous for opposing the cresent moon symbol. --Zeno of Elea 15:00, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The truth value of your statements is irrelivant to your conduct.--Tznkai 15:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

mathematical/scientific definition of god

you can't have a "mathematical definition of god" anymore than you can have a "scientific definition of god"

From my vantage point you can, and all in one, single definition: the personification of infinity. El_C 18:39, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
That is as "mathematical" a concept as numerology is. --Zeno of Elea 18:48, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The sweet embrace of mathematical abstractions, demystified? With utmost care and clarity. El_C 19:14, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Template:Islam

I just noticed that you have added the IslamSymbol.png to the Template:Islam 4 times within 24 hours. I suspect that some might very well be interested in using this fact to get you banned for 24 hrs, under the 3 revert rule. As a suggestion, I think you might want to revert you own most recent change regarding this, in order to avoid such actions. I'll just add it again right after you remove it. -- Karl Meier 21:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I thought about that, but decided that this wasn't really a revert. My latest edit creates a novel situation of having the symbol but not having the Jihad link, and not having "Fundamental Principals" link to "Five Pillars of Islam." I also changed the color scheme. I don't think it's much to worry about, especially since the main edit warrior, User:Heraclius, has stopped defending of his edit war in the discussion page. --Zeno of Elea 21:57, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

After reading the discussion page it should be pretty obvious to anyone who is making the unexplained, abusive reverts. However, it's not required that the reverts should identical to be a technical violation of the 3rr. If you insist on any change 4 times within 24 hrs you'll most likely be blocked. Or atleast, that is how I've seen it being practiced until now. -- Karl Meier 22:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

There you go I am afraid... -- Karl Meier 22:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Crescent. The inclusion of the crescent as compared to Christian cross are different. In terms of theology Jesus' death is a necssity to all Christian groups that I know. The crescent isn't, it's just a symbol without the same theological value. I personally believe that Allah in Arabic is more important because it is widely used on Muslim pendants and art (calligraphy being important) and God is obviously theologically significant and so is the use of Arabic. I think it's wrong to include for a few reasons the first being that the template is bloated enough in the first place. Also, just because something is recognizable doesn't make it correct or good... there is contention about this issue and admittedly some of it is because your history of creating controversy whether you have meant it or not. I understand many of your other edits trying (even if I disagree) as trying to rid Islamic articles of apologetics. This, however strangely seems to be you just towing the line of anti-Islamic groups... the crescent as the symbol, Hubal... I understand that you think the crescent might be acceptable, but I'd think so is Allah in calligraphy.... why is it a symbol you think is of overriding importance? You know that a bunch of the editors are wary about how you act... and things like this and... well, I don't think you're making the best case for yourself. gren グレン 23:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I really think that this debate should go to Template:Islam --Zeno of Elea 19:05, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
My comments were to you specifically. I had no need to repeat all of that to others. gren グレン 12:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Existentializer

Don't look now, but it appears BrandonYusufToropov's allies have started accusing people at random of being "sockpuppets" once more. I've already had my own page vandalized once, I expect to see it again.Ni-ju-Ichi 04:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Conduct Warning Two.

Your conduct on Template:Islam is combative, inflammitory, and counter productive. However strongly you feel about the truth of your statements, you must assume good faith and understand we are all trying to make a better article. You clearly have a very strong POV. I can't figure out exactly what the hell it is, but it seems to be interfering with your good judgement. Keep it up and you will probably end up in a spot of trouble. I am doing you the courtesy of pointing this out to you on your talk page instead of on article talk pages. This is not an attack, this is an observation of the effects of your actions. Please cease and desist.--Tznkai 02:24, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Template:WivesMuhammad

I thought you'd comment on that talk page but you didn't... so I'll ask you here. I made two changes. Firstly the colors... which I don't think will be a problem (purple was Christian for a reason). Secondly I changed consorts back to wives. Well, you can read it all on that talk page but I want to make sure you're okay with my changes... or tell me why you had consort... it didn't make sense to me and it was never explained there. gren グレン 02:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

please don't forget to comment your changes

Hi, please don't forget to comment your changes, i.e. on Criticism_of_Islam, else it's tedious to check what you did. --Marek Moehling 14:45, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Template:WivesMuhammad

Well, I do not know what the Muslim take on this is. If they are typically called wives or not. Concubine would only be used in a pejorative sense... and since they are mostly listed under Muhammad's marriages it seems odd to have it different in the template. What do notable texts calls these ladies -- Islamic and secular literature? I am thinking that maybe "Muhammad's Harem" is a decent choice... because... is it denied in traditions that he had such access to these people? Harem also has a pejorative connotation but... I think people would hopefully know what it means. In any case I believe you should ask around some and you will have to move the template to whatever is decided upon. gren グレン 10:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Jihad

I thought that maybe you could take a look at the jihad article? Dab is promoting the (I must say) rather strange idea that Ali ibn Tahir al-Sulami was behind the concept of jihad as warfare, and claim that jihad as warfare didn't exist before him (!) He also claim that his calls for military jihad was what he call "avant garde". Most recently, he even suggested that the "jihad as holy war" section should be merged into the Offensive Jihad article... -- Karl Meier 17:34, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

An anon user posted the following to your user page

THESE PICTURES OF THE PROPHET ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SHARIA WHICH SAYS NOT TO HAVE ANY PICTURES OF ANY PROPHET OR LIVING THING SO HOW COULD YOU TRANSGRESS THESE LAWS AND OFFEND ME THIS WAY!! SOURCE:ISLAMIC SHARIAH AND HADITH

Apparently this user feels that Misplaced Pages is governed by shariah. Anyway, I took the liberty of reverting it. Nice miniature by the way, where did you find it? --Briangotts (talk) 15:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

3RR violation on Rules of war in Islam

You have been blocked for twenty-four hours for violation of the three revert rule on the article Rules of war in Islam. If you have any questions on this block, please contact another administrator via mailing list or email. Please refrain from edit wars when you return. Bratsche 02:49, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Din (Arabic term)

zeno, I would like your opinion on Din (Arabic term). Heraculis is having fits with it and will not allow even the statements of muslims to be quoted. I do have an email given with my account. You can email me your opinions if you like. Nickbee 05:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

zeno, please may I have your opinion on Apostasy_in_Islam page. Heraclius is having another one of his rv wars there. I do not mind making it concise but Heraclius wants to take out quotes and information that is important and demostrative of the problem. Nickbee 18:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

zeno, I have asked for third opinion on the dispute with Heraclius at Talk: Din (Arabic term). I will appreciate your opinion on the matter. Thank you Nickbee 19:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment

Please do not describe the edits of User:68.84.185.85 on Islamophobia as vandalism. They are not, see Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:03, 2005 August 27 (UTC)

The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism

BYT put my article on this informative book up for VfD, I'd be honored if you'd take a look at the article and its VfD and share your opinions. Thanks. User:Klonimus/AINB Klonimus 07:59, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Two more for your considderation

Also on VfD. I don't know if you've put my User:Klonimus/AINB on your watchlist, but I'm trying to create a central project to deal with apologetics and whitewashing on wikipedia and also to act as a notcieboard for VfD's etc. It's a major nuisance trying to mobilize people for VfD's, since so few people have time to waste on watching VfD.

Anyways here's two more books, on VfD, and these books are both 25,000+ on amazon.com. Btw I agree with you about BYT, deleting criticism of Islam won't make it go away. I'd be happy to work with you on an article about nazism and Islam

Klonimus 07:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Muftism

Check this link out, http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/holoc.htm and click on muftism, a very good introduction to our mutual friend. Looking at the length and content makes me think this is an Senior Paper, it should be a good start for a future article.

Also see this linl to an adress by Bibi, before the UN commitee on the inalienable rights of the palestinian people, it mentions the mufti quite a bit and gives some good context. I assume UN-cruft is Public domain so probably portions of it could be put in as well.


BTW: thanks for your support in the recent VfD's, the desire of some people to whitewash WP of anything that might make islam look bad is quite sad.

Klonimus 03:01, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Desi

Why did you delete most of the information in the Desi article? It is not 'totally wrong'.

Arun 16:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Criticism of Islam

Uh. You see Zenor. I changed it from Directories of pro-Islamic sites to Directories of responses to critcism. I reworded based on the fact that pro-Islamic was not the issue and that responses to criticism was. Your tone made me cry. gren グレン 03:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Nice revert

Just wanted you to know I agree with your efforts to maintain encyclopedic tone and objectivity here ]. BrandonYusufToropov 14:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Page Protection

Zeno of Elea, while I understand your frustrations, remember that page protection is not an endorsement of the current page. In addition, it is inevitable that The Wrong Version will always be protected. I protected the page on a request at WP:AN. Thanks! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | WS 23:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if you want to request unprotection, you should put the request in the unprotection section.  :-) --Nlu 07:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

FYI

Irishpunktom has started vandalizing Dhul-Qarnayn to make some kind of a point. If he continue to insist on that kind of disruptions, then I actually think someone should report his questionable behavior. -- Karl Meier 15:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Template_talk:Islam#Criticism_of_Islam

You were discussing here and then you and Karl seemed to drop out of the picture. I've tried to get a broader range of view since it's a topic that has relevance to other religions' templates yet all discussion seems to have died. Just curious if you were planning on pursuing that more. We don't always agree (in case you didn't know) but, it seems odd that this issue was just dropped. gren グレン 05:32, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't be a vandal

Referring to edits you don't like as vandalism, is of itself a form of vandalism. Don't be a vandal.--Irishpunktom\ 10:40, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

For the second time, Referring to edits you don't like as vandalism, is of itself a form of vandalism. Don't be a vandal--Irishpunktom\ 11:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Stay!

Zeno, Misplaced Pages would be much poorer without you. Even if some of your material gets removed, you change the equilibrium here and make a real difference. Please stay! Babajobu 16:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep WP needs you, alot. Your'e one of my favorite editors here. I know that it can get very frustrating sometimes, at the end of the day truth alone triumphs. Klonimus 05:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Anonymous editor

Thought you might be interested in the this. Klonimus 05:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)