This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Giano II (talk | contribs) at 22:08, 13 January 2009 (→FT2: Act or abdicate). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 22:08, 13 January 2009 by Giano II (talk | contribs) (→FT2: Act or abdicate)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
| Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end. Start a new talk topic. |
Happy New Year
and Ring in the new.
Happy New Year!
From FloNight
Relative coverage of articles in Misplaced Pages
Jimmy raised the question on another page (Ayn Rand) about the relative coverage of different subjects in Misplaced Pages. (I used the example of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, whose coverage of Aristotle is more than a 100 times greater than of Rand, whereas with Misplaced Pages it is the other way round. Two points to make:
(1) I agree that the way a subject approached in the SEP, which is intense and scholarly work, should not be compared to the way Misplaced Pages approaches the same subject. But that is not the same as ignoring a subject completely. Here we are at the age-old problem of balancing the education vs pandering to the interests of the general public.
In the UK where I am writing from we have a long tradition of public funding for 'highbrow' subjects to make them accessible to the general public. Thus as well as a radio station called 'Radio 3' which plays only classical music, whose funding is way out of proportion to the percentage of people who actually listen to out, which is way out of line to what commercial interests would have dictated. This is the legacy of Lord Reith - "His concept of broadcasting as a way of educating the masses marked for a long time the BBC and similar organizations around the world.", and it is alien to the way that American TV, mostly crap, is funded. A bit like the way your mother made you eat greens even though you hated it, because it was 'good for you'.
You could argue that Misplaced Pages is purely for entertainment purposes, and that its model should be commercial TV. No greens, straight burger and fries with Ben and Jerry's washed down with coke. But then many people have donated money to make the sum of human knowledge accessible to all the people on the planet, so isn't that short-changing all those people who donated that money? As well as the charitable trusts and foundations who donated large sums of money on the understanding it would be used for educational (not for entertainment) purposes.
(2) But another issue overshadowing this, which is why I used the example of Ayn Rand, is that Misplaced Pages is a magnet for cranks. Those whose ideas or theories or own research have been turned down by academic journals (which have very strict criteria for inclusion, and which turn down 90% on average of the material submitted) tend to go to Misplaced Pages to get #1 Google ranking for their ideas, or for the ideas of the cults they belong to. Such is the case of Rand, I suspect. From what I have read of her philosophy (which involves the 'Axiom of consciousness', eh what's that), she is not a philosopher. Jimmy has argued she is some kind of American literary figure, but then why is it that Rand is not even mentioned in Chambers Biographical Dictionary, whereas comparable figures like H. L. Mencken, Dorothy Parker are? The only explanation I can think of is that there is a kind of cult surrounding Rand, and that members of this cult are persistently slanting and biasing coverage of subjects in Misplaced Pages in a way that could not possibly happen in a standard reference work, which starts with the idea of how much space should be devoted to each subject, rather than ends with it.
In summary, we have two separate problems here. (1) What 'affirmative action' should be applied in Misplaced Pages to guarantee that the children eat their greens, without actually putting the children off. That's a difficult one (2) What 'negative action' should be applied to put off cultish and crank ideas being promoted in Misplaced Pages by sincere but deluded people. This is also difficult.
I end with a list of some very strange articles which qualify as neither burger and chips, nor spinach, and which relate to the second of the problems I have just mentioned.
- Ascended_Master_Teachings
- Ascended_Master
- Plane_(metaphysics)
- Emanationism
- Cosmogony
- Nondual
- Sri_Aurobindo
- Subject-object_problem
- Wahdat-ul-Wujood
- Astral_projection
- Apport
- Higher_mental_plane
- Astral_body
- Esoteric_cosmology
- Levitation_(paranormal)
Peter Damian (talk) 09:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
- Much of what Peter raises is actually germane to an ongoing arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science. In particular, what are good answers to his point #2, and how to respond to bad answers to same. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 15:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages has standards for notability and so inclusion. Although, I can understand the concern that "more notable" inclusions are not well developed, the decision of what is more notable may be personal, and the solution may be not to exclude but simply to make sure that the perceived more-important be better developed. Misplaced Pages maybe a buffet, rather than a single course meal, that includes both vegetables and chips-just have to make sure there's lots of both.Because Misplaced Pages doesn't seem to have a formal structure in place that monitors article inclusion and development, the concern may be ongoing, and possibly the correction is as it now is, when an editor finds an undeveloped article to fix it.(olive (talk) 17:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC))
- That stale old argument may have worked when Misplaced Pages was young. No longer. You have to look carefully at the reasons why hardly any professional academics write for Misplaced Pages. Look at the nonsense going on at Talk:Ayn Rand right now. Peter Damian (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages has standards for notability and so inclusion. Although, I can understand the concern that "more notable" inclusions are not well developed, the decision of what is more notable may be personal, and the solution may be not to exclude but simply to make sure that the perceived more-important be better developed. Misplaced Pages maybe a buffet, rather than a single course meal, that includes both vegetables and chips-just have to make sure there's lots of both.Because Misplaced Pages doesn't seem to have a formal structure in place that monitors article inclusion and development, the concern may be ongoing, and possibly the correction is as it now is, when an editor finds an undeveloped article to fix it.(olive (talk) 17:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC))
- I can't see how I make any kind of argument at all but am making a statement about what actually goes on. The way things are right now if something is notable , and that doesn't mean by academic standards otherwise this would be a very different encyclopedia, then it can be included. What do you suggest be the alternative to " some editors edit Rand and fewer edit Aristotle or care to". Misplaced Pages isn't structured presently to overview articles and their content. Is this an encyclopedia for academics or for a general population. Should the general population be better educated .... sure. (I'm not American by the way.) Why do academics not edit ... if they don't? As an academic if I want to publish in my field I am not going to go to an encyclopedia to do it, any encyclopedia. As an academic, though, I might work here because I want to make the '"sum total of human knowledge" accessible, and Rand is part of that however disagreeable that might be.I don't care about Rand, at all, but I do care that we are reminded this is an encyclopedia not an academic journal or even academic encyclopedia. I don't care much about so called fringe topics either. I do care that human knowledge is extensive, doesn't necessarily exist in textbooks or academic journals and that all knowledge is treated neutrally by the editors here. Sometimes I think we forget this is a general encyclopedia, just an encyclopedia, and is group /community driven.(olive (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC))
- Afraid that sounds like I'm lecturing, and that wasn't meant. I guess there are organizational, structural aspects if this encyclopedia that predispose a very particular kind of encyclopedia.(olive (talk) 21:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC))
- "Standards for notability and so inclusion" don't really mean much here. It's perfectly possible for a subject "A" to have say 100 notable, reliable sources, and for subject "B" to have 100,000 (or more) notable and reliable sources, and yet to have a much bigger and more detailed Misplaced Pages article on "A" than on "B". It all depends on popularity and advocacy. Surely, surely, one can find many, many more sources (of any kind, on any level of detail and presentation, in any language etc.) on Aristotle than on Rand? And yet...?
- Really, the main question is that of proportion. Paper-based encyclopediae had limited space; therefore they had to decide which subjects to cover in greater detail. And this is what the general public has come to expect: that the level of coverage in an encyclopedia is indicative of the importance of the subject. Now Misplaced Pages is not paper; but still that rule remains; the readers still expect that subjects of greater importance are covered in more detail. And when trivial subjects (="cruft") get long-winded but pointless articles, and serious subjects only a brief treatment, that is indicative of a very serious imbalance. -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
- Compare e.g. the following:
- Aristotle -- as of today, on Misplaced Pages: size of article approximately 65 kB
- Thomas Aquinas -- approximately 50 kB
- John Locke -- approximately 34 kB
- Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles -- approximately 45 kB
- Which is the odd one out??? -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 00:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Compare e.g. the following:
- Your argument is based on the premise that readers still do in fact expect that a longer more detailed article means more notability or importance. I don't buy that premise. Some readers, readers that have grown up with computers, blogs, email, online communities, (my students when I'm teaching) may never have looked at a paper encyclopedia and do not generally have expectations when they arrive at Misplaced Pages's door. As for the odd man out, sure if your an academic it will be Robotech, but if you're sixteen it will be the other three gentleman. That's the point I guess. This is a huge unlimited-space encyclopedia. Once allowable as being notable and included, we have to let go of our views, claims go, and just edit as neutrally as possible unless or until an an over-viewing group takes charge of controlling articles and content. I'm not sure I would want that to happen.(olive (talk) 02:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC))
- ..."sure if your an academic it will be Robotech" ... "but if you're sixteen it will be the other three gentleman ". Really, I don't have to say anything more here. My point is made perfectly. But, I must admit, your phrase "my students when I'm teaching" is really frightening. -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 23:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Page size is mainly set by being reason to load over a slow connection. Category:Aristotle gives a better picture there, for instance we have articles on 34 works by Aristotle Category:Works_of_Aristotle. But it's well known the answer is not to fix the balance by writing less about Robotech, that only makes Misplaced Pages worse, but to add more information of Locke (Aristotle is sorely overrated anyways). WilyD 18:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Aristotle may be overrated. To be sure. Every philosopher or thinker may be overrated... as long as they are actually rated. Yet, he lived in about 300 BC... which makes him and his ideas, now, approximately 2300 year old. So, what thinker (or artist, or writer, or poet) of the present age do you think will survive for the next 2300 years? Do you think that in 2300 years hence they will still speak of Robotech as the crowning achievement of our age??? -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Your argument is based on the premise that readers still do in fact expect that a longer more detailed article means more notability or importance. I don't buy that premise. Some readers, readers that have grown up with computers, blogs, email, online communities, (my students when I'm teaching) may never have looked at a paper encyclopedia and do not generally have expectations when they arrive at Misplaced Pages's door. As for the odd man out, sure if your an academic it will be Robotech, but if you're sixteen it will be the other three gentleman. That's the point I guess. This is a huge unlimited-space encyclopedia. Once allowable as being notable and included, we have to let go of our views, claims go, and just edit as neutrally as possible unless or until an an over-viewing group takes charge of controlling articles and content. I'm not sure I would want that to happen.(olive (talk) 02:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC))
'Aristotle was sorely overrated'. Ha! Wikipediot. Obscure greek Homer 42k, famous american Homer 65k. I would have bought this argument when Misplaced Pages first began. But as I pointed out above, the project is now mature, and we still find it difficult to attract editors who can write accessible material on more encylopedic subjects. The reason is abundantly clear: the place is infested with cranks, advocates of strange fringe theories, mystics, lunatics of all kinds. No sane intelligent person would go near the place with a bargepole. In any case, I have now re-written the introduction to Ayn Rand that makes it less obviously written by Rand fanatics. Let's see what happens from there on. If the introduction stands relatively unchanged, I lose my bet. If it is torn to shreds and returned to the unreadable ungrammatical state as before, I win, bigtime. Peter Damian (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Try this on for size: "No sane intelligent person would go near the place with a bargepole"... and yet, here you are, and here I am. What does that make you and me, then? More generally, insulting other people (as you just did WilyD, and as you have throughout this thread) may not be the most effective way to convince them you are correct. (although it's fairly effective at convincing them you are difficult to work with) ++Lar: t/c 15:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I know I'm barging in into an intellectual discussion, but I feel I must do it. Somebody above just said: "No sane intelligent person would go near the place with a bargepole". Well, let met tell you a story. My background is in physical and mathematical sciences. I do hold a degree from a major UK university (the exact details do not matter at present.) Anyway, not such a long time ago I happened to look at Cold Fusion article here on Misplaced Pages. (This happened some 4 or 6 months ago, I can't remember now.) Anyway, the article aroused my attention. Not being an expert on this subject, I asked an opinion of somebody who was (officially) an expert. Their reply was, to put it bluntly, "are you bl**dy f**king serious?" In other words, the article was in such bad shape that nobody who was a real expert in this subject was prepared to do anything about it. I remember that at that stage I pointed out the nature of Misplaced Pages, and I remember I said something that it's a resource that anyone can edit. The expert's response was something along the lines "don't be bl**dy silly; this whole thing is bl**dy nonsense and I am not spending my valuable time trying to fix that." So, well, that was that. So much for expert retention. And, oh yes: "No sane intelligent person would go near the place with a bargepole" is so obviously true. -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Lar for your professed admiration of the English you are deficient in any understanding of the English sense of humour. I don't count myself as sane, by the way, by any stretch. Also, if you see the Talk:Ayn Rand talk page, it seems I have lost my bet with Jimmy (the intro has stuck, for now). But let's wait a week. Peter Damian —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC).
- On being difficult to work with, that is the whole and entire point. I have no desire to 'work with' anyone here. Why on earth would I? Peter Damian (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You might find it rewarding to step back and realize that we are all volunteers working on a charitable effort to share knowledge. There are a lot of good hearted people here, people who are as interested in high quality work in a collegial and respectful environment as you are. Many of us are quirky, interesting, loving and fun, and making us exhausted through constantly being difficult to work with (with a snotty attitude that makes it seem that you feel yourself better than others in a way that you clearly are not) might not be the best way for you to enjoy yourself. Rather, working well with others can be very rewarding, and can in fact help you to achieve your ends more easily than snapping/sniping at people, as Lar has indicated up above.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Quit the moralizing, it hardly suits you. Working with others can be rewarding, of course, but rarely on Misplaced Pages. You simply haven't addressed the problem of the legion of people here with a monstrous agenda of promoting whatever cult or lunatic belief they happen to be obsessed by. Working with them is the last thing I want to do. It might seem snotty but after all the articles Rational egoism and indeed Ayn Rand are now somewhat improved, at least, and that's what we are here for, eh? And as I mentioned above, you are all missing the sense of humour here. Has it ever struck you that some of the things I say cannot possibly be seriously intended? Lar is an idiot anyway, everyone knows that. Peter Damian (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You might find it rewarding to step back and realize that we are all volunteers working on a charitable effort to share knowledge. There are a lot of good hearted people here, people who are as interested in high quality work in a collegial and respectful environment as you are. Many of us are quirky, interesting, loving and fun, and making us exhausted through constantly being difficult to work with (with a snotty attitude that makes it seem that you feel yourself better than others in a way that you clearly are not) might not be the best way for you to enjoy yourself. Rather, working well with others can be very rewarding, and can in fact help you to achieve your ends more easily than snapping/sniping at people, as Lar has indicated up above.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- It does seem as though many of the things you say can't be seriously intended, but I'm not sure my impressions will agree with your intentions. You've pointed out that Misplaced Pages is beset by lunatics, POV warriors, cult followers, the gullible, con men, the querulous and the hopelessly unequipped. We've also got the entire upside, so I'd say we're a pretty accurate representation of humanity in that respect. Most institutions with lofty goals have effective methods of weeding people out - unfortunately, as you've noted, we have a difficult time managing that important task. On the other hand, our inefficiency permits us to retain those well-educated few who simply are unable to consistently manage working with others online. Avruch 19:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I seem to have missed 'the entire upside'. Where did you spot those? Peter Damian (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- It does seem as though many of the things you say can't be seriously intended, but I'm not sure my impressions will agree with your intentions. You've pointed out that Misplaced Pages is beset by lunatics, POV warriors, cult followers, the gullible, con men, the querulous and the hopelessly unequipped. We've also got the entire upside, so I'd say we're a pretty accurate representation of humanity in that respect. Most institutions with lofty goals have effective methods of weeding people out - unfortunately, as you've noted, we have a difficult time managing that important task. On the other hand, our inefficiency permits us to retain those well-educated few who simply are unable to consistently manage working with others online. Avruch 19:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Let's show the door to trolls
Looking at the Ayn Rand talk page is revealing. We learn that Peter Damian thinks she's a crank and has no respect for her work and doesn't consider her a philosopher. He's argued that she's been ignored by serious scholars. So to address this he's now working on his own article on her in his userspace (does this indicate Damian isn't a serious scholar?). Meanwhile, a philosopher he referred to in attacking Rand has a poorly written, unformatted, stubby article. Wouldn't it make more sense for Damian to work on that article? I'm not a professional philosopher, but I don't understand his logic. In fact, he's working hard to exert his personal opinions on a very complete article that needs careful editing. This in no way makes the encyclopedia better and distracts others from the good works of adding good sourced content and copy-editing articles. I hope someone will direct his efforts in a more useful direction. Trying to twist articles of people we don't like to suit our personal POV isn't helpful in any way shape or form. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the fact I have moved the userspace material to mainspace. Someone desperately needs to show you the door, don't they? Peter Damian (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- And behold I win my bet with Jimbo. How long before the article reverts to an ungrammatical mess, bereft of any criticism of Rand? As I said, I will not attempt to revert. What is astonishing is that this edit, which claims to revert 'unsourced nonsense' was actually sourced from Stephen Hicks <personal attack redacted>. Peter Damian (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Peter, indeed, let's show the door to trolls. One form of trolling, to my mind, is to whine about hostility to academic philosophers, and then to turn around and call a tenured professor of philosophy who has written on the subject at hand a "member of the cult". Forgive me for being completely disappointed in you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- And behold I win my bet with Jimbo. How long before the article reverts to an ungrammatical mess, bereft of any criticism of Rand? As I said, I will not attempt to revert. What is astonishing is that this edit, which claims to revert 'unsourced nonsense' was actually sourced from Stephen Hicks <personal attack redacted>. Peter Damian (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You are wrong Hicks is clearly belongs to the, er, 'movement'. And you clearly misunderstand. It was our trollish friend User:ChildofMidnight removed the quote which I sourced from Hicks, not I. I wrote "Her fundamental principle is that self-interest is the true standard of morality and that altruism is profoundly immoral. Hicks wrote, in Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, article 'Ayn Rand' that "self-interest, properly understood, is the standard of morality and selflessness is the deepest immorality. " which CofM removes with the comment "removed poorly sourced nonsense". I'm the one sourcing Hicks, geddit? And Hicks, by the way, while clearly a competent philosopher, is clearly blinded when it comes to the subject of Rand. I can cite 100 sources which show Rand's rambling nonsense is exactly that. Objectivists seize upon Hicks. In another edit, he (or she) removes an entire section I had added. I wrote "Her philosophical work, however, has had little recognition among established philosophers, who have been scathing about her lack of rigour, the derivative nature of her thinking<, and her apparently limited understanding of philosophical subject-matter. Even as a writer of fiction, she has enjoyed almost no critical recognition outside the United States." These are important points. Academic philosophers are not hostile to Rand because they are elitist. They are hostile because she is a poor philosopher. And it is a fact that no one outside the US has heard of Rand. Read those standard reference works. This so-called 'encyclopedia' is nothing but a fraud. How dare you take people's hard-earned cash, and take funding from charitable institutions, in the name of 'knowledge'. Peter Damian (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not at all interested in the underlying content issue here. You're simply not acknowledging my point: it is wrong for you to insult a tenured academic who is expert in the area in question and at the same time whine about academic respectability.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You are right, I have never noticed you had any interest in underlying content issues. Peter Damian (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I see I am already being threatened with a block, both on my talk page and on Misplaced Pages Review. So be it. This is Misplaced Pages's notion of civility, and neutrality. Peter Damian (talk) 21:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
For the record, someone else (Damian I presume?) added the header on this discussion section. I don't condone that type of statement or incivility. Refactoring is just another example of misdeeds that detract from the encyclopedia. Paragraphs of criticism don't belong in an introduction. I added the statement that "her philosophical work is not part of most academic curricula, and she has received strong criticism from some in academia." This seems like a reasonable summary of one notable aspect of the Ayn Rand story. She didn't care much for academia, by the way, and if Damian is any indication of academics, I can see why. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I's not incivility that is causing perfectly good editors to leave
Message on my talk page: "Thanks for your message. I support your efforts, but won't spend any more time on Ayn Rand myself. I think it's a waste of time, and highlights perfectly the main flaw of Misplaced Pages - that unlike with proper encyclopedias, experts and idiots have equal say, and fanatics (no matter how amateur or idiotic) can always get their way if they stay up late enough and make enough edits and reversions. (Not that I am an expert in this particular case.) Larry Sanger's phrase that Misplaced Pages is 'committed to amateurism' sums it up perfectly. Ben Finn (talk) 14:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)" Peter Damian (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Notes
- Walker (The Ayn Rand Cult) argues that everything she wrote was either derivative (from a combination of Jewish tradition, laissez-faire manifestos, and mystery novels), or devoid of literary value
- William Vallicella, a Kant scholar, shows here exactly how she misunderstands Kant, and explains here some elementary logical errors in her work
- The Oxford Companion to English Literature (2000 edition), which mentions twentieth century American writers such as William Burroughs, Dorothy Parker, H.L. Mencken, Jack Kerouac and others, does not mention Rand. Nor does the Chambers Biographical Dictionary
Plight of Nina Paley
Nina Paley, author of award-winning animated film Sita Sings the Blues, is having a rough time because of copyright problems (copyright extension, extortionist fees etc.) Paley has become an eloquent and charismatic advocate of free culture. Is there any way you can help draw attention to her plight? Haukur (talk) 01:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- I doubt it, well not on Misplaced Pages anyway - Misplaced Pages maintains a neutral point of view and should not be used for promoting causes, however worthy though they may be. – ukexpat (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Jimbo can be used for promoting causes, in particular he often promotes free culture causes. Here's an example that's not even a month old: I hope that, if nothing else, Jimbo reads up about Nina Paley so he can refer to the case in appropriate contexts, e.g. when giving talks. Haukur (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, Haukurth, and if you have any contact with Nina Paley, could you ask her to contact me so I can learn more?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking an interest! I have no personal connection with her but I've now left a comment on her blog suggesting she contact you. Haukur (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Pediapress
Hello, I know http://Pediapress.com has a partnership with WMF (http://wikimediafoundation.org/Wikis_Go_Printable), but I was wondering if User:Pediapress is permitted to use their userpage to promote their site? I took this to UAA awhile back, and was referred to ANI but got little interest other than a reference to WMF. The reason I ask is because quite a few templates are listed on User:Pediapress/TemplateBlacklist and I wondered if this was something you knew about. Please advise. Rgrds. --Tombstone (talk) 13:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I have no strong opinion about it. It's up to the community as far as I know.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Having just now reviewed the situation, I am shocked at the hostility shown to this user in this case. I think the wrong thing has been done here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not shocked by the hostility, it's pretty much normal. DuncanHill (talk) 13:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm a little distressed by the term "hostility" here, Jimbo. The situation appeared to be one of simple ordinary spamming and the use of a role account; matters admins are expected to deal with everyday, as part of the job of the wielders of the sacred Mop-and-Bucket. Should we be more welcoming to spammers? I think not. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- That you feel we should be hostile to spammers, roll accounts and the like doesn't mean we're not. Anybody involved in any roll that encounters a lot of these knows very well we are. Certainly answering speedy deletion requests, I know we are. You ought to know this too, Mike. It is unreasonable for us to expect new users to know not to use roll accounts, for instance, and our responses are typically hostile. COIs, reposting their own copyrighted materials, and so forth - all are likely to generate a good deal of hostility. We plead overwork (which may'r may not be valid), but things are what they are. WilyD 16:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- I would prefer a term such as "stern" or "firm" rather than "hostile," is all. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- That you feel we should be hostile to spammers, roll accounts and the like doesn't mean we're not. Anybody involved in any roll that encounters a lot of these knows very well we are. Certainly answering speedy deletion requests, I know we are. You ought to know this too, Mike. It is unreasonable for us to expect new users to know not to use roll accounts, for instance, and our responses are typically hostile. COIs, reposting their own copyrighted materials, and so forth - all are likely to generate a good deal of hostility. We plead overwork (which may'r may not be valid), but things are what they are. WilyD 16:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Jimmy, can you comment on Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#PediaPress as to what it actually IS? If this a WMF officially sanctioned thing, or is it a 3rd party thing like Wikia or some other body and subject to local approval by the community here to run on the site? rootology (C)(T) 23:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I commented over there. It has nothing to do with Wikia!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
PediaPress update
Hi, thanks for raising the issue at AN - I must say it looks to me like a useful service for users. Anyway, the user is now unblocked, and their userpage restored. I took the liberty of adding a link to the Foundation's press release to both the userpage and the talkpage, so hopefully that will help avoid future (perhaps too speedy) deletions or blocks. It was suggested at AN that maybe the Foundation should list it as an approved rôle account - would you be able to raise this with whoever is most appropriate? As to the script, I have added it to my monobook.js and it seems to work fine for me (and I am someone with almost exactly no knowledge of how such things work!) DuncanHill (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I'll have to try it again. I don't know if it should be a role account or what, exactly. Hopefully the user will show back up and try again.
In my view, and I'm just thinking out loud here, if this is a partnership that benefits Misplaced Pages financially (apparently it is, although I confess to knowing little about it), then the page should likely be moved to the Misplaced Pages mainspace instead of User space, and it should be more official. But that's just me speaking personally and thinking out loud...--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Their website does say "A portion of the proceeds of each book will be donated to the Wikimedia Foundation to support their mission." Did you remember to clear your cache? The links to add articles or view your collection appear at the top right of your screen. DuncanHill (talk) 02:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- The collections extension has already been enabled on Wikibooks, for example Wikibooks:Wikijunior:Solar_System/Neptune. The link is in the toolbox, along with the "Printable version". And, the extension provides the wikibooks:Special:Collection page, with additional options for printing, as well as ordering a printed book version. (see User:Aude/Technology_report, which will be part of the next Misplaced Pages:Signpost) --Aude (talk) 02:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Jimbo, in case you were not aware, User:Pediapress is an alternate account used by User:He!ko. Rgrds. --Tombstone (talk) 13:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, I didn't know it. I hope the account is properly identified as such now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Rules
Hello, I was wondering, are Misplaced Pages rules there to stay (can they be changed?)? I was just wondering because there are some people that abuse of the rules and some of them don't seem to be quite fair. No examples now but I was just wondering. Can you answer on my talk page because of my memory? Kalajan€₣ 18:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
CCCCCCCCCCCooookie
Message from XENU has given you a cookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy munching!
Spread the goodness of cookies by adding {{subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!
Message from XENU 19:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Ayn Rand
Hi, I've filed an RfM on Ayn Rand, including as parties only those who've recently edited the article. However, as you've commented on talk, you might want to be involved too. If so, please add your name to the list of parties at Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Ayn Rand. Cheers, SlimVirgin 02:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks. I actually didn't intend to get involved in any way with the content issue on that particular article. I was interested in the discussion about using an academic encyclopedia as a metric to think about the question of whether Misplaced Pages content is unbalanced in some ways, an idea that I consider interesting, although obviously there are a lot of important caveats and complexities.
- I have very little interest in the underlying content issue, and I'm very rusty in my knowledge of the issues at hand.
- I also don't wish to get involved in editing an article with someone who insults people who disagree with him by calling them 'cultists'. That just doesn't seem like a fun use of my time. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Begging message
There used to be a gadget to enable logged-in users to suppress display of the begging messages from the foundation. This has been removed. It is highly offensive to force contributors to Misplaced Pages to see this message on every page that they look at. DuncanHill (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- I still have that option in gadgets (second one from the top) and I don't see any banner when logged in. –Capricorn42 (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- It (the gadget) just reappeared. DuncanHill (talk) 16:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is my belief that the banner should be easily removable at all times. I don't know of anyone who disagrees.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- The gadget was removed because the banner was removed. It suddenly came back, and as a result, so did the gadget. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is my belief that the banner should be easily removable at all times. I don't know of anyone who disagrees.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- It (the gadget) just reappeared. DuncanHill (talk) 16:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Crown Copyright - effectively free?
I have been referred to you by User:Carnildo but first, surprised at seeing who I was being referred to, many congratulations on this brilliant knowledge resource and for encouraging the worldwide mega-altruism by which it has developed.
The query concerns the Wiki copyright policies and, in particular, what is and what is not included in what is desribed as having 'non-free content'. User:Jheald and Carnildo have been helpful explaining this policy - in fact I can do no better than refer you to what Jheald has put on my own talk page.
thumb|right|200px|Architects (Registration) Act, 1931My error, as Carnildo sees it, is that I included a copy of a front sheet of a superseded British Act of Parliament on the page desribing the Architects (Registration) Acts, 1931 to 1938. It's a dry subject but of topical interest to architects in the United Kingdom and I put the image in merely to liven it up a bit. (I guess there might even be a bit of intrinsic curiosity in the old paper as well.) Now Crown Copyright in this country is such that Acts of Parliament (and a lot more besides) can be copied and re-copied for ever. There just a few rules which can be found here, the explanation of what is and what is not allowed being easy to understand. We find that Crown copyright may be asserted to protect the copied Material against use in a misleading or derogatory manner; otherwise, there is effectively no limit to the freedom of use: copyright is waived.
Now it occurs to me that under European law (and it would not surprise me if similar provisions apply elsewhere) that even if all rights were waived over copyright (ie. copy it and alter it as much as you like), if the treatment became misleading or derogatory to the author (or to anyone else for that matter), a remedy would arise in any event; the only difference being that the remedy would arise not under copyright law but in the field of defamation or damaging misrepresentation.
left|200px|Badge of the Assyrian Church of the EastSo we are drawn to the contemplation of risk. I gather that it is only recently that the Wiki-warriors have been unleashed on so-called non-free images and the result, as I have seen elsewhere, is to diminish the encyclopedia. A good example is the removal of this badge of the Assyrian Church of the East, now replaced I see, which I found fascinating. Is the risk avoidance worth that loss? I would suggest not.
I am sure that I will not have been the first to raise it. I would be interested to know the arguments. Salisian (talk) 19:52, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Limitation 12(b) on the here rules you gave would preclude us from using it. Free content requires the freedom to modify a work, whereas this rule would imply that you can only reproduce the work exactly as it originally was. --B (talk) 19:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't Crown Copyright expire after 50 years? DuncanHill (talk) 20:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Disclaimer IANAL: I believe it does, it depends on wether or not it has been officialy published or not though. The problem is however that even if the copyright have expired in the UK, it can still be considered copyrighted under US law (wich we have to abide by seeing as the servers are located in the US) since US copyright law does not recognize copyright terms shorter than it's own. There is one possible loophole though, per this chart if it was published before 1977 (quite likely) with no copyright notice (no idea) and was in the public domain in the UK before 1996 (maybe, depending on when it was published) it will be considered public domain in the US also because the new law that came into effect in 1996 didn't re-copyright works that had already expired under the old law, it just extended the term of works still under copyright. Don't you just love how straight forward copyright law is :P --Sherool (talk) 22:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- No, under UK law, Crown copyright is an exception to the rule that the duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works is for only 50 years (See subsection 5 in that link). It makes the question of the threat of the risk (which I think tends to be greatly overstated) from an infringement more interesting. Salisian (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC) Oh! and I've just followed IANAL, and IANAL, and TINLA!! but I was fortunate enough to be around to help with the drafting of the UK's 1988 legislation. Salisian (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- But the 1988 Act has been superseded - copyright is generally 70 years from death now. DuncanHill (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Section 163 of the 1988 Act says of Crown Copyright that is lasts "if the work is published commercially before the end of the period of 75 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was made, until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was first so published." DuncanHill (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- And s164 says of Parliamentary Copyright for Acts "The copyright subsists from Royal Assent until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which Royal Assent was given". So the 1931 Act referred to by the OP is now Public Domain in the United Kingdom. DuncanHill (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, s.164 rules; and thanks for the note on the image page. Meanwhile, the point that I have been tying to make has been aptly demonstrated by BJBOT which has wasted the two images that I put into this thread (with half a mind to see what happened). The problem of Wiki impoverishment it seems to me is lies with thoughtless intervention. There is probably a balance, but image generators and planters are probably not in the same league of anarchism as the Bot drivers (although the person behind this particular bot at least appears reasonable). My point is that certain so-called non-free images present negligible risk, enrich the knowledge-base, improve comprehension and enjoyment, but get thoughtlessly removed nevertheless. And I think the rules, if tweaked a bit, would improve the environment.Salisian (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- As things stand right now, Misplaced Pages has roughly 800,000 images split about evenly between free and non-free, with around 1000 new ones (again with a 50/50 split) being uploaded every day. There are maybe a dozen people who understand the image use policies and are willing to work to enforce them. Many of the details of policy and how it's enforced is a reaction to this, to let a small number of people handle a large amount of work. I'd love for it to be possible to handle everything with a personal touch, but until the number of people working on it increases at least twenty-fold, there aren't enough hours in the day, and the bulk of the effort needs to be handled by bots. --Carnildo (talk) 07:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- If those facts tally, then yes I can see the problem. May I suggest that the User page of every Bot supplies that information as a courtesy to those whose impression, I think not unreasonably, is that Bots are generally to be equated with vandals and run by natural bullies? But it still does not address what I see as being the problem, which is that virtually risk-free but 'non-free' images (which are usually of greater historical interest that free images at least) are constantly and unnecessarily being zapped? It is, I think, a subtle rule-change that is needed. And as an also-ran, if this were to be combined with a softening in the style of wikiwarriors so that the arguments for and against inclusion can be objectively and accurately assessed, the place would be a lot richer (and more genial).Salisian (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- The "virtually risk-free" argument isn't going to fly: historically, one of the major struggles with non-free content has been getting rid of the floods of risk-free but easily-replaced promotional material that public-relations people put out. It's a Pandora's box that those of us who do image work do not want to open again. "Risk-free" permits advertising pictures of rare cars from the 1920s, but it also permits publicity images of Ford's latest. --Carnildo (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Back to didactics? I hope not; but you make a different but related point succinctly. You appear to approve the image of a 1920s car (that is 'free') but not one from 2009 (which might be 'non-free' and possibly risk free). I have no idea what Ford's latest is: if I were interested, why should I not see it here? It appears that what you are complaining about specifically is that some people will substitute one image for another and subversively let advertising creep in. That would be against the intention of an encyclopedia and instant removal (or at least reversion) would be an appropriate Bot activity. But an informative image of the latest tin box on the market cannot be wrong, surely? - But we are straying away from the issue, which is to suggest a modification of the rules so that Bots will take a liberal attitude to non-free and risk free images, rather than crashing about with the carelessness of a bull in a china shop. Salisian (talk) 13:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- The "virtually risk-free" argument isn't going to fly: historically, one of the major struggles with non-free content has been getting rid of the floods of risk-free but easily-replaced promotional material that public-relations people put out. It's a Pandora's box that those of us who do image work do not want to open again. "Risk-free" permits advertising pictures of rare cars from the 1920s, but it also permits publicity images of Ford's latest. --Carnildo (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- If those facts tally, then yes I can see the problem. May I suggest that the User page of every Bot supplies that information as a courtesy to those whose impression, I think not unreasonably, is that Bots are generally to be equated with vandals and run by natural bullies? But it still does not address what I see as being the problem, which is that virtually risk-free but 'non-free' images (which are usually of greater historical interest that free images at least) are constantly and unnecessarily being zapped? It is, I think, a subtle rule-change that is needed. And as an also-ran, if this were to be combined with a softening in the style of wikiwarriors so that the arguments for and against inclusion can be objectively and accurately assessed, the place would be a lot richer (and more genial).Salisian (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- As things stand right now, Misplaced Pages has roughly 800,000 images split about evenly between free and non-free, with around 1000 new ones (again with a 50/50 split) being uploaded every day. There are maybe a dozen people who understand the image use policies and are willing to work to enforce them. Many of the details of policy and how it's enforced is a reaction to this, to let a small number of people handle a large amount of work. I'd love for it to be possible to handle everything with a personal touch, but until the number of people working on it increases at least twenty-fold, there aren't enough hours in the day, and the bulk of the effort needs to be handled by bots. --Carnildo (talk) 07:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, s.164 rules; and thanks for the note on the image page. Meanwhile, the point that I have been tying to make has been aptly demonstrated by BJBOT which has wasted the two images that I put into this thread (with half a mind to see what happened). The problem of Wiki impoverishment it seems to me is lies with thoughtless intervention. There is probably a balance, but image generators and planters are probably not in the same league of anarchism as the Bot drivers (although the person behind this particular bot at least appears reasonable). My point is that certain so-called non-free images present negligible risk, enrich the knowledge-base, improve comprehension and enjoyment, but get thoughtlessly removed nevertheless. And I think the rules, if tweaked a bit, would improve the environment.Salisian (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- No, under UK law, Crown copyright is an exception to the rule that the duration of copyright in literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works is for only 50 years (See subsection 5 in that link). It makes the question of the threat of the risk (which I think tends to be greatly overstated) from an infringement more interesting. Salisian (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC) Oh! and I've just followed IANAL, and IANAL, and TINLA!! but I was fortunate enough to be around to help with the drafting of the UK's 1988 legislation. Salisian (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Articles dealing with controversies related to Misplaced Pages
I have posted some remarks on this topic at Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy#Articles_dealing_with_controversies_related_to_Wikipedia that might interest you. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Act or abdicate!
For Heaven's sake you have limited enough sole responsibilities on Misplaced Pages as it is, for how much longer are you expecting people to swallow the garbage going on here . You have an Arb who is more than a cuckoo in the nest , he is bloody liability. Either fire him or resign yourself - Quite frankly after this stupidly prolonged debacle, I no longer care which of you goes - Are you so disinterested in this project? Get a grip and sort it! Giano (talk) 19:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Act or abdicate! Giano (talk) 22:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)