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History discussion with Contrieng
Dear boy, come on, don't you have anything better to do in life? Calling Israelis Nazis and stuff? Really, I can't relate to a person who has no connection to reality. In any discussion there's a minimum degree of respect and good faith in the other. The discussion with you is challenging, even though you choose to disregard or deny many of my valid points.
Nevertheless, you have to stop calling me a Nazi, because it has nothing to do with the real world, my morality level, my thoughts, or my daily life. You know, since both of our countries are at peace, you should visit us, and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Are we Nazis? Well, come and see, you're invited, I'll show you around. Just don't hate me.
Regarding 3600 years (which are too long for you), well, let's skip 1670 years to the year 70 AD, the year in which the Romans destroyed the Jewish Jerusalem. They came and totally destroyed the Jewish towns, rooting out the grand Jewish rebellion to the ground, and then they destroyed the temple of God, the second temple which was built on the ruins of the first. This is where the Muslim golden dome stands today (and I have no problem with that, have it, it's yours, OK? I kind of like it actually). The last Jewish rebels were left in Masada, where they stood bravely for a long time, until they decided to commit suicide before the Romans got to them. So, actually, it's not 3600 years, I'll give you a discount, the price is just 2000 years (from around the birth of Christ, centuries before Muhammad).
Judea, was a completely Jewish country (Roman province), no Palestinians (not even in Gaza). After the destruction, the Jews were exiled. Some were sold to slavery. Some communities, howevr, like in Yavne, were spared, but in essence - the Jewish people lost their homeland to the Romans. In Jerusalem, a small community survived. Over the generations, the Jews were scattered across the globe, while a small community was here, in Tsfat, Tveria, Yavne, Jerusalem, and a few other places. Conquerors came and went, but this land was never theirs. During the time of the Ottomans, the Jews were the majority in Jerusalem, the united Jerusalem. If you don't believe me, you can check that out.
The Jews, at almost any place, tried to assimilate in the new societies abroad, and they managed to do so quite well. In fact, if it wasn't for the murder, discrimination, and prosecution they had to endure - they would have stayed THERE. After all, who wanted to return to this desert land? There was nothing here! Nothing! Including the Palestinians, there was no such nation, it was almost a deserted land, and no people here claimed for independence from the imperial occupiers. Then, unfortunately, in the 19th century, anti-Semitism swept Europe. Although the Jews always lived in closed communities and never tried to turn Christians into Judaism, they were still prosecuted and had to live in humiliation and fear (as it was in previous centuries).
Out there, in all the places that you want us to return to, Jews were hated and prosecuted. So in order to find a solution for the un-acceptance of Jews, the Zionist movement was conceived in the mid 19th century, and the first congress was held in 1870. Again, this was an answer to a problem: Jews had to endure progroms (mass killings) in Russia, in France there was the notorious Driefuss trial, hate was all over the place, and all this led the worldwide Jews to think: what the hell should we do? Well, that question was on the air for quite a few decades, until Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany. The rest, you know. After the Holocaust and six million murders, it was clear to everybody that the Jews need a place to live in security. So, where can they live without being haunted? Naturally, the original place from which they came, the place form which they were driven out by the Romans.
Know this: they would have STAYED abroad if the people around them would just let them live and prosper. But it wasn't the case. They got hate, discrimination and murder.
Even today, nobody wants us, not even the Americans (will they give me a green card? no!). So your solution of us all immigrating back to Europe or any other country would not work. No country will have us. And you know what? Quite justly they won't, because we already have our own country, which we are very proud of.
Anyway, the British, were the last conquerors of this land, and again, it wasn't theirs to give or distribute. But they did so anyway, because they thought they own the world (like they owned America and India). The French and the British formulated Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and other young Arab nations. Then came the partition plan, approved by the UN, which the Jews accepted, but the Arabs didn't. Israel was willing to accept the original partition plan, but the Arabs denied it, and they waged war against Israel (no "Palestinian struggle" back then). In that war, Israel expanded its borders (yes, one the expense of the Arabs, but hey, the Arabs did not let us live according to the UN plan), which became the 1967 border line. In 1964, the PLO was founded. Remember, it was 1964, not June 1967. The PLO did not call for the "liberation" of Palestinians under Jordan and Egypt, it called for the total destruction of Israel. So why didn't they call for the liberation of the Palestinians by Jordan? Why didn't Jordan give them a state in the West bank? And what about Gaza under Egypt?
Then came June 1967. At the time, Gmal Nasser threatened to invade and slaughter all the Jews, and the rest is also known history.
But all this does not matter anyway. We are living in the present, at now, the Jews have their own country, Israel. If you suggest a different country for us to live in, I will be glad to hear about alternatives. In fact I am looking for an immigrant visa, I think Israel is too limiting for me (even though it's a great modern country). Regardding the Arabs here, they enjoy what they would not enjoy in your country, or in any other Arab country for that matter. They don't serve in the army, they don't pay municipal taxes in their settlements, and they get free child support from the state. Arabs can vote, like any citizen, and they can run for parliament as long as they're not speaking and acting against Israel, their own country (like the notorious Azmi Bshara). Arabs in your own country don't get what they get here. But anyway, any Jew, in any Arab country, will not enjoy the same rights. If I visit Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Syria, or even Jordan and Egypt, I will probably be arrested, just for being Israeli. Can I immigrate to Jordan? Will I be able to vote in Joran or in Syria? I would really like to immigrate to Jordan, will your country accept me?
Until a real alternative is found (perhaps the planet of Mars?), we are here, and we are here to stay. The Jordanian and Egyptian subjects who were conquered in 1967 (whom we now call Palestinians), may have their own state, as far as I am concerned, side by side, next to Israel, with safe passage between the Gaza strip and the West Bank. I would accept such an arrangement, as long as they will accept my right to live here in my own country, and as long as they do not send suicide bombers or other stuff. They can start building casinos, tourist attractions, universities, malls, everything they want (without a standing army, like Japan and Germany) - and we shall all be prosperous. That's my solution, and actually, most of the world supports my solution, not yours. So let's be rational.
Regarding the current conflict in Gaza, let's hope Hamas will not fire more Grad rockets, and will realize that violence against Israel is not the solution. I hope the Palestinians will overthrow Hamas, since it's really not good and constructive for them. We also have an unclosed business with a kidnapped soldier, Gilad Shalit, who must be returned to us, in good shape. Hamas prisoners in Israel enjoy a three-star hotel conditions, with visits and accommodation, while Gilad is even denied from the Red Cross. C'mon man, don't you see it? We are one of the most humane nations on Earth, and we regret the loss of human lives. Saddam Hussein and his sons were not so nice toward their own people, Sudan is actually committing war crimes, and we, for defending our civilians after 8 long years, we have to deal with "fighters" who use human shields and fire from mosques and schools (you always ignore this). No other army in the world can be more precise than IDF, but we are not surgeons as you know.
There's no need to call me sir, I'm not your commander, and my name is John. You can decide whether you want to hate me, or accept me. Don't waste your energies on this, it's bad for one's health. We wll not attack Gaza if there would be no missiles toward us, and if Hamas would not smuggle weapons into the strip. Why smuggle weapons?? Smuggle money! Smuggle money and give it to the people of Gaza!
I hope you've learned some history today (go back to the start), and let's not lower this discussion to the Nazi level, since I will not continue. I apologize if I said offending words, but you know, calling each other a Nazi does not help. You have a golden opportunity here to talk to an Israeli, and learn more from the inside of our society, rather from sources who incite against us. I saw you're having problems with the "Pan Arabism" issue. If you want my help, I can help you edit, but I'll need to understand what you're trying to say.
Lastly, trust your king, his father made the right choices, for the good of your country and for its future. Come to Israel, learn, before you judge us so harshly. I am going to sit in a Caffe now (Tel Aviv), with a friend, and I'll tell him about you. I just hope we won't explode by a suicide bomber, since then I will not be able to continue this discussion with you (it's kind of difficult from the grave...:) John Hyams (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello again. First, I am getting kind of bored with this. I knew it wasn't going to end, and I wanted to make some points which I did. Having gotten convinced or not by my points is up to you. So I hope this is the last time I write to you since I started my vacation and this discussion causes stress, the last thing I need right now.
Regarding the nazi-zionist comparison, I know what effect it has on you, but I am not making the comparison just for the sake of argument. Almost all demonstrations that happened against the Gaza attack called it a holaucost and compared davids star to the nazi cross. So, this similarity is not something that I alone see. It is something that many neutral people have said. For example, when the UN higher council for human right assembled and voted that there should be investigations regarding war-crime accusations, the french ambassador said (I don't recall the exact words) that if israelis were miss-treated in some era in history it doesn't mean that they are allowed to do the same for other people. So, it is hard for you not to lose your temper when being compared to the nazis but this is what outsiders think, at least a part of them. You may be a very peacful person but still, you are a citizen in the country whose creation caused an exodus, and was based on force and massacres, and secret treaties. If not creation, then re-creation. I have respect towards what you are saying, but I am holding on to all my beliefs even if you find them appalling.
While I thank you for the invitation, I don't believe that a tourist gets the real inside look, to get an inside look, I sometimes read translated (to english) haaretz articles, and watch the news.
Sir again, with or without your discount. I don't believe that there was any right to create a country
and kick its people out. Look, I completely acknowledge that there was a kingdom of Israel in the past
and I know it was destroyed numerous times by brutal armies. But Muslims never mistreated jews
in Palestine, again go to the article of the jewish golden age in spain. So what romans did was
completely wrong. But also, What you Israelis did to Arabs is not any less than what romans did.
See, there were Muslims, Christians and Jews living in jerusalem before the creation of Israel
(re-creation if you want), jews were encouraged to move to palestine from all around the world
by political regimes that had no interest in that long lost kingdom. Religious jews could have
moved to jerusalem to pray and live peacfully without killing and without brutal force.
The romans destroyed your towns and you destroyed ours! We did not destroy your temple! and when the mosque was built there was nothing under it it was just a high piece of land.
If you lost your homelands to the romans, why should we lose our homeland for you? Couldn't it have been our and your homeland together? without wars and borders? Why should it be a Jewish country? can't Jews live with Christians and Muslims who all have interest in Jerusalem? Muslims wouldn't have minded that, but after massacres and wars and the exodus, there can't be peace! The romans mistreated you and when you had the power you took it out on US! The fact that "During the time of the Ottomans, the Jews were the majority in Jerusalem,
the united Jerusalem." is just another proof that Muslims have never mistreated jews or asked them
to leave! not until it became a political war that forced us to leave our homes!
I know there was brutal anti-semitism in europe, that is wrong! You know that arabs are also "semites"? But again, you endured murder, discrimination, and prosecution but why do the same to us?
Sir palestine was never a "desert land" never! through all of history there was a lot of interest in it. You can go to the british archives for example to see videos of palestine in the twenties and thirties. had it been a desert, the british wouldn't have been interested in it! Palestine, was pictured by the zionists as an empty desert, videos of for example camels moving around were broadcast in europe to gain the acceptance of the idea of zionism and the support for the creation of what was pictured as a new country on an empty land without any people". Of course that is all so wrong.
If jews were hated why should arabs and muslims pay for that? We did not hate you before you killed us! Our hatred is something you bought with your own actions!
You said the zionist movement came as a solution. Well, the solution was completely wrong, don't you think? you were hated by europeans so you moved to somewhere else and FORCED the people there to hate you. Zionists had no right in moving the peacful people living in palestine who had nothing to do with hitler, or the romans out and killing them.
You are telling me about the holaucost. Let me tell you about deir yassin, where your zionist people entered a peacful village and murdered each and every single one of them. They did that to scare the palestinians off. When people in Yafa heard that, they were scared and started thinking about leaving before they all get killed, that is when my grandfather took a loudspeaker and moved through the streets of yafa with his car, desperately trying to make the people stick to their lands and saying they did that to scare you. they won't kill you all. don't leave. After that, your armies came to yafa and told the people leave or you are killed, of course he was forced to leave (though now as I think of it, I'd rather have died on my land with my dignity).
Doesn't that resemble what the romans or nazis did?
So my solution of you moving back will not work, here is another solution:
We will let you all stay and forgive you for the exodus and the 60 years of palestinians being refugees if they can all return to their towns where they get money to build their towns back. and then, we remove all the borders between israel, the west bank and ghaza, and make it one country, not a jewish country but a country for all religions and all people who want to live there. All jews have to admit that zionism is bad and what it did was wrong, all others must admit that prosecution of jews was wrong. We make a government that has muslims and jews and christians all together. Better?
A human being has the right to live anywhere he wants. A human being never has the right to kill or kick people out of where they live! Israel has no right to exist the way it is now!
Of course Arabs denied the partition plan of 1947..! Why should anyone be forced out of his town
for someone else to live there! it was wrong when the romans did it and it was wrong when you did
it! When muslims entered Jerusalem, they never kicked anybody out, they only killed those who were
fighting (romans at that time, I guess). The partition plan itself is a huge struggle!
Of course arabs won't live according to what the UN says! As I said, nobody should be forced out!
and the UN has no right in dividing our land and giving it to anyone!
That is why the plo wanted no Israel! Why should we pay for what europeans did to you?
You could have moved peacfully to palestine and without kicking us out and making a country of your
own!
Arabs in israel do not enjoy dignity, that is what they are missing. As for Azmi Bshara, why is your or the Israeli judgement of what he does more important than what he thinks? Isn't any Israeli allowed to believe that Israel (new Israel) was made by killing and brutal invasion?
About Jews in arab countries. Well, I can't tell you about jews because all the jews we had moved to
Israel, but let me tell you about the tolerance of Islam with chrisitians. Christians have
all the right we do, Jordan is our country as well as theirs with no discrimination whatsoever.
I have more christian friends that muslims! Best friends, people I've known my whole life.
My family visits theirs in Christmas and Easter and they visit us in Adha and Fiter.
I have studied in a christian school.
If jews did not buy our hatred with their own actions, the situation would have been just like that.
And about Jamal Abdul-Nasser. I hate that guy. But he is a communist, so he doesn't believe in Islam or God or anything! so what he does has nothing to do with Islam.
About a state without an army. Well in simple words that is like a man without his genitals! And even if the world supports your views that does not make them right, not at all.
Regardin the gazza conflict, Hamas would not have fired Grads if there wasn't a humiliating seige. They won't realize that violence is not a solution, because this violence even after 60 years is a retaliation of what you did back in the days. I don't think that palestinians will throw them out, though that will be decided later. But I do know that Abbas has the support of America and Israel, and usually, people like that stay. About the soldier, I don't care about him. But don't brag about the way you treat prisoners, we all saw the real face of Israel in the war, targeting the UN and red cross..! That is not at all humane!
Saddam was a tyrant, I honestly think death is not a good enough punishment for him, he deserves more! I don't really know about the situation in Sudan that much. And you are not defending your civilians, you are aggressors, invadors, attackers. About mosques and schools, I neveer commented on that because I didn't think it was important. See, I can't say whether they do or not, because I don't know! What I do know, is that Israel will say anything to look good. You have no proof whatsoever about having weapons in mosques! Just like the imaginary weapons of mass destruction that the US used to invade Iraq! Also, I am quite sure that there were no weapons in the UN schools, I don't believe your army but I believe Mr. Giggs (or gibbs is it?) I believe the UN who said over and over that there were no weapons, only unarmed civilians. Your government than had to say that its targetting was a "mistake". One funny "smart missle" was playing a joke!
I call you sir out of respect because you are older. That is how we are brought up, to respect old people (even those of other religions and beliefs). You don't want that respect that's fine. You certainly don't deserve it with the "commander" comment. So, dude, I have no feelings towards you, I do not accept you and yet I do not hate you. And again, dude, don't talk about energy. I mean thanks for the advice, but keep it to yourself. n. You can decide whether you want to hate me, or accept me.
Actually, I did not learn anything new from what you wrote except maybe some unimportant details. And I've explained myself regarding the Nazi thingie. (I still believe that zionism = Nazis )
I took the "golden opportunity" and I found, nothing new. My sources of information are just fine. I read israeli newspapers (translated) as well as arab news. I watch cnn and bbc all the time as well as Aljazeera.
Thank you for your interest in my editing, but no I don't want your help, so you don't have to understand.
Lastly, I trust that King hussein made the right choice for the good of Jordan, but not for
the good of palestine. In that aspect I disagree with him. I too hope you won't explode, and live to the day where we have the power again.
Too bad you and me can enjoy sitting in cafes while the people of gazza enjoy picking up what's left of their homes.
I'm going to Dubai tomorrow for a 12 days. If you reply, I won't be able to answer soon. Contrieng (talk) 16:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Your knowledge of history and facts is lacking. What a pity and shame. Nevertheless, you did not say to which other country we should all go (perhaps we should come back to the Arab nations from which part of us were driven out?). Please state a country that will accept us. Otherwise, enjoy Dubai as we need to struggle for our survival here, among terrorists and fascist/Nazi groups that you like to endorse.
- Again you ignored the human shields used by Hamas, their use of civilian buildings such as schools and mosques to fire rockets from. You ignore this because you are happy that many innocent were "massacred", with the encouragement of Hamas. This way you have a something to say against Israel. You crave for more killings by Israel, since it serves your Anti-Zionist agenda and justifications. How nice.
- For your information, in the early 1970s, the late King Hussein of Jordan killed more Palestinians than Israel ever did. It happened in the Black September events. Do you know why? Arrange about an hour for yourself, sit back, relax, and watch this:
- Apart of that, Israel has achieved its goals (with casualties, unfortunately). Hamas will not launch more attacks on Israel. If they will, they will be crushed, and this time for good. These cowards with black masks and guns who are afraid to show their faces, we'll get to them one day, and we'll wipe them off the face of the map (hiding behind civilians won't help them). Israel will not hesitate to deal with those barbarians, in force and determination. Israel will negotiate with peaceful people, not with violent ones, and not with anti-Zionists. Peaceful people will get anything from Israel, on a silver plate.
- I guess you have not yet learned a very important rule of this Universe: when you are anti something, you will only get more of that something. So in essence, you are doing us all a big favor, and by your anti-Zionism you will only get more Zionism, and that is a good thing after all. Thank you (and please watch this eye-opening video, however boring it may appear). John Hyams (talk) 19:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- -
Sorry about the boxes, I don't know why they appear
Your tone certainly changed. Do you know about the siege of leningrad? (saint petersburg) it was the turning point of the war. a failed siege and vicious attack by the axis (including the nazis) it was the turning point of WWII. Compare it to Ghazza.
Go to wherever you came from. or stay under our rule, since we are tolerant to all peacful people of all religions, and we welcome them to live with us. After killing arabs and palestinians and 7 wars, i don't think it's agood idea to visit us.
A question, why do the lebanese live peacfully these days? Is it by any chance because you were defeated there? Why did you withdraw from lebanon? was it because of resistance?
It is my unfortunate people who are struggling with terrorist zionists, levny and the bunch, and your brutal evil army.
Hamas is not an army. they don't have army bases and tanks and stuff. They are a paramilitary
organization. that is the only way they can survive. I explained myself quite well about mosques
and schools. read it again. As Churchill said to the british (not exact words) that he promises
them (the british who voted for him) he promises sweat blood and sacrifices they have to make.
You are the ones that massacred my people. I do not enjoy that.
I have said a lot against israel, it's not about the recent holaucost.
I crave for my people to live with the dignity they deserve, in their cities and lands.
I know quite well about black september. It was Yasser Arafat's
fault not the king's actually. And you killed way more.
At least the jordanian army fought against fighters. while you kill innocent children. I'm not going to watch that video (no time)
What goals exactly? ironically funny! Hamas now has more power than ever! If hamas succeed in breaking the siege (which i think they will) they will not need to fire rockets How will they be crushed? wasn't the purpose of thee war to crush them and it failed? These people wear masks because if your nazi army sees their faces it would kill their entire families, mothers, sisters, children.
It's ironic abbas hasn't gotten his state on a silver plate.
Hamas and Hezbollah are anti-zionist, did they make you a favor? and when I'm anti-something,
it is wrong and should be stopped. when I am anti something it is because it's against humanity.
Contrieng (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, actually, Israel didn't quite fail in Lebanon. Yes, the *public in Israel* have defined it as a failure, since they expected to stop the rain of missiles faster than planned, and there was no preparation for the ground operation, but eventually, Hasan Nasralla admitted he would not have attacked Israel if only he knew that Israel would respond in such force. And now, Hizballah don't dare to start anything, because they know the expected Israeli reaction. To this date, Nasralla is still hiding, and most of the people of Lebanon curse him. Moreover, the government of Lebanon is now responsible for keeping the quiet, something that was imaginable prior to the Israeli action. So, that's life, and that is the price of freedom - eternal vigilance.
- Lebanese live peacefully today because Hizballah does not dare to attack, and Israel will not attack until it is attacked. The peace in the north is *because* of Israel's actions. It is amazing how you are fed by the false propaganda of the non-democratic Arab media.
- I know, Hamas forces innocent children to hold weapons at the age of 4-5. They abuse children, and they USE CHILDREN AND CIVILIANS AS SHIELDS (countless videos on YouTube). You are right, Hamas are not fighters, they are pussies. Chickens. They kill Palestinians (also videos on YouTube) and you endorse them. Are you human? You support the intentional targeting of Israeli civilians, but fail to understand how Hamas encouraged civilian losses, for its own propaganda. I'll say it again, IDF is not a surgeon, no other army in the world is. There's a limit to accuracy (yes I know, Arabs are very humane when they slaughter).
- King Hussein killed more Palestinians, check the official numbers mister. Jordan is just another Palestinian state by the way, and you guys just want to invade and have it all, what is not yours and was never yours. Go back to where the British, French and Ottomans brought you from.
- You failed to answer why Jordan and Egypt did not give a state to the Palestinians prior to 1967. You failed to explain why the PLO did not call for the liberation of the Palestinians from Jordan and Egypt. Well, actually, I know why, because the Palestinians as a nation did not exist before 67. Arabs in Israel were Israeli, and Arabs in Jordan and Egypt were Jordanians and Egyptians.
- Mister, saying "wherever you came from" is not enough. No country will accept us, so we can't go back, sorry! Too late. However, if you feel there is a nation who would accept us today, that I am all WAITING to hear its NAME. Are you so stupid to believe that there's a nation who will allow us to immigrate to it? Boy you are so stupid. We were gassed and burned in OVENS for Christ sake!!! You like to mention the Holocaust all the time, but it seems that you are unable to connect it with the fact that Jews were not wanted THERE and therefore their only place is here. Unless, again, and this is becoming tiresome, you will tell me which country will accept 6 million Jews warmly today.
- We don't want to live under your backward rule. Thanks but no thanks.
- No other nation has suffered like the Jews throughout history, but we don't bitch about that all the time. We have built a magnificent westernized country (from a total wilderness, look at old pictures of this land mister) with democracy, personal freedom and prosperous economy (even in these times), and you can only be envious of us. Jordan is a poor country and far behind Israel in almost every aspect, and quite frankly, without that black oil - the Arabs would have stayed a group of nomad and barbarous tribes. And as you say, nothing is eternal, the oil will run out, run dry, and then the Arabs will have nothing to offer to this world. Unless, of course, they learn from Israel, and become open and civilized democracies. John Hyams (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- A reminder to you, of who are the REAL NAZIS today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY9a6Oy8UVI
- -
- And it's funny that you keep mentioning WW2, because in WW2 the allied forces wiped off entire German cities in order to defeat the Nazis. They were dropping bombs on German civilians, without even trying (like IDF tries) to avoid civilian casualties. And you know what, that was the German people's problem, that they allowed such a regime to rule over them and lead them to war. Quite ironically, the Germans were bombing London with V2 missiles, just like Hamas is using Grad missiles. Hamas and the Nazis are practically the same. John Hyams (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- -
Gaza Conflict (Old thread)
How dare you talk about your right to sit quietly and edit while ghazzan children are struggling for their right to live? If you were really into human rights, you should have instructed your "democratic" government not to starve ghazza to death with 3 years of blockade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Cu6evEWfk
- What "3 years of blockade"? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians wanted their own state, didn't they? So there, they were given a chance, and instead of developing their own economy, and establish prosperous relations with Israel (Israel would welcome it!!), they bring Hamas, which took Gaza BY FORCE, sending suicide bombers into Israel, and firing rockets into Israel. So what did you expect? That Israel would not limit entrance into its own teritory, and do everything in order to prevent weapons/missiles into Gaza? Wake up, the Palestinians could control their own fate, but they chose Hamas and the violent path towards Israel. As for the "refugees", Hamas could build towns for them, but instead, they are interested in hate. And were are your rich Saudi Arabian friends? Why don't they give their billions to build Gaza? The problem is, that all the money goes for weapons, and it seems the Palestinians will never learn, as they like to get the world's pitty all the time, instead of building themselves. Learn the facts dear friend, as we Israelis would just want quiet, without being hated 365 days a year. John Hyams (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oh John, where do I start? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza because they knew that it would cause a Palestinian division at that time. Nevertheless, Israel withdrew from Gaza only so people like you can say "Israel is good. Here's the proof, we withdrew from Gaza." You withdrew from Gaza, but decided to close all the borders and starve Palestinians to death. Palestinian do want their own state, but they were never given the chance. Try to compare this chance with the chance that England gave you back in the fourties. How would Palestine develop any kind of economy before it even has a land good enough to build a state. Even your friends in Fattah in the west bank have hundreds of "obstacles" between the cities. I am not ignorant to the situation there. Is that the prosperous situation Israel welcomes? Try to reverse the situation. would you accept to have an Israel where you would have to wait for hours just to cross the road to your work place?
Also, a very important point is that Hamas came to power by the only democratic elections in the arab-world, and after this made things bad with Israel, hamas agreed to have a joint government with fattah, but it didn't work because Abbas, Mubarak and others just don't like hamas. Also, there haven't been any suicide bombings for years now, and while you think that hamas started the issue by firing rockets, I believe (like many more) that Israel started the situation by slowly killing palestinians with the blockade (yes, the blockade). Don't bend facts. Blockade first, rockets second. And Palestinians don't want to enter israel, so block entrance, that's fine just give palestinians what ensures their right to live is accomplished. Wake up? Palestinians COULD control their fate, if only they were given the same weapons that america gives you. That way, Israel wouldn't dare play the policeman, and would respect their neighbours. And, of course palestinians hate Israel, Remember the maps before 1948? Most of the people in Ghaza come from Yafa and other cities that were occupied back then. Hamas could build towns? really? can you tell me how? Also, would you build towns first or ensure that you can stay alive? So that little girl in the video is interested in hate? And my "friends" are not really interested in such stuff, they'd rather pay for hookers in europe. But why should they even be responsible to pay for such a thing? Why doesn't Israel pay. After all, you want a "prosperous" relation. If all the money went to weapons then by now, hamas would have f-16s. And don't talk about the world's pitty, nobody is sympathetic with palestians. It's Israel that begs for pitty, plays the victim, by still talking about the holaucost. What happens in ghazza is much worst than your holaucost. Those are the facts, at least just a little bit of the facts. You can't occupy Yafa, Haifa, Jerusalem and other places and then want to live in quiet. Contrieng (talk) 21:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hamas is fascist regime, and thanks God they don't have more than rockets. If they want to build themselves, they don't need weapons. They could learn from Japan and Germany, who have built their economies without armies, after being defeated in WW2. If you are interested in F-16s, you can forget about any hope for peace. Why? Because when the Arabs/Hamas would put down their weapons, there would be peace. But if Israel would put down its weapons, there would be no Israel. Israel is one of the best democracies in the world. If you don't believe me, go live in Iran, or Syria, or Lybia, or in any other Arab country, and you'll "enjoy" democracy. They are offering democracies, right. Moreover, I am sorry, according to what you say, my country has no right to exist. I cannot argue with those who deny my right to exist here, without being hated all the time. So there is no point to continue this discussion. John Hyams (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I honestly thought you would have a better argument. We will end the discuccion after a few thoughts I must convey. Bear with me. First, we have strayed from the ongoing issue, namely, the war. Here are a few thoughts.
- This war is a destined strategic defeat for Israel for a very simple reason. Its goal is too vague. I mean, if the goal is "stop hamas rockets", then even if one rocket is fired one year from now all the money and lives lost are in vain. (especially the innocent children and families) If the goal is to "destroy hamas", then the bad news is there will be a hundred other hamases. Olmert and the bunch were very stupid with their approach to get your vote. Now, even if hamas is destroyed, Israel has a lot of explaining to do to the UN, UNRWA about the accusations of war crimes. Israel has been paying loads for good publicity and now it's losing it. Also, let's say Israel isn't able to destroy hamas and a cease-fire is implemented. What will happen next? Now you have Hizbollah above, and Hamas below. Bad eh? Years later, another organization will come to power in the west-bank. Well, those are just thoughts not predictions.
- Another thing, you can't compare the amount of destruction by those pipes (rockets) by the amount of destruction in ghazza. Not all ghazza is with hamas and not all ghazzans are hamas members. As you said, Hamas came to power by force, so why are you punishing them all? You can check neutrally made statistics about civilian deaths on both sides and compare.
- Also, I am open for argument about what you refer to as "your right to exist there". I simply stated an argument that you didn't accept. So, correct me. Tell me about the land you are in before 1948. Tell me about Balfour. Also, you never commented on my argument that even the law-abiding Fattah in the west bank have hundreds of borders between their cities, not mentioning the "berlin wall", which takes me to Germany and Japan, yes, they built their economies in their own lands my dear, their free lands. That is the reason why you need weapons. Hamas may be a facist regime, I do not care for hamas per se, nor fattah nor any regime, whether democratic or not. And don't lecture me about democracies, I live in one. And I don't think arab-israelis would agree with you on that. Let me stop at that note, though I have a whole lot to say. All in all, your arguments were weak and sneaky in that you avoided all the points I mentioned and decided to end the discussion before you lose more.
- Always a pleasure..
Contrieng (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- OK. I'll give you an answer. By the way, welcome to Misplaced Pages. If you'll maintain integrity and balance here, you'll be noted and respected. Your last post showed me that you have some potential, so here I am answering you. I have to say that I thought to leave our discussion where it stopped, since it's going to continue forever with endless typings here on the wiki pages. I have a full time job and my free time is limited. Indeed, my second answer to you was not full, and I missed some of your points. I felt that I would not be able to convince you about anything anyway, so why bother. I've had discussions like this one in the past. In the end, nobody wants to be persuaded, really. The truth may lie somewhere between what I say and what you say, but between does not necessarily mean in the middle.
- In your replies you have shown some knowledge, but you are very biased against Israel. I'm not saying that my country is perfect. I have a lot of criticism on my own country, and I'm not saying that my country is better or worse than any other country. You said you are living in a democracy. I am really happy for you. If you live in Canada, I would like to immigrate, would that be OK by you? Anyway, it would be interesting to know in which country you live, and in which city. Once you tell me the city, please don't mind if I'll feed your coordinates into a new forwarding system I am designing for the Israeli national defense bureu. The principle of this newly designed system is very simple: whenever a Grad missle is launched towards an Israeli city, the system will automatically forward the missile towards the predefined coordinate, in this case your house, where it will explode. Oh, could you also give me your exact address please? Thanks... All the missles fired by Hamas will be forwarded to your city, onto your flat or house. Alternatively, you can give me a school's address, or a shopping mall, and I'll forward the missiles there. Then, Israel will no longer be required to attack Hamas, and our ambassador in your country will be available to help your country in advising how to defend yourselves. I hope you don't mind, because you don't seem to care about such minor and unimportant things. You can then call Hamas and ask them to stop, but they'll say that your country and its democracy are not living according to Islam, and therefore you must continue to receive their missiles in love and understanding. Could you please give me your family's addresses too? I mean your entire family could be targeted, I'm sure they would not mind. I'll tell you want, you'll get the missiles on Sundays, the school on Mondays, the shopping mall on Tuesdays, and your family on Wednesday to Saturday. Please confirm, I really want this system to be operational already.
- OK, now, seriously. Israel is not targeting civilians intentionally in Gaza. Israel targets Hamas only. Hamas intentionally targets civilians in Israel, with missiles and suicide bombers. Intention, or the lack of it, makes the difference between violence and accident. Civilians are killed because of several reasons: Gaza is one of the most populated places per square mile on Earth - even with the most advanced targeting systems like the ones used by Israel, we cannot be always accurate. We drop leaflets and even make phone calls before we bomb. BUT guess what!! Hamas does not allow civilians to flee those areas!! Hamas WANTS civilians to get hurt, however amazing it sounds. Hamas "booby traps" schools with explosives, fires missles from mosques and houses, and you don't know all this?? Please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I&eurl Then read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/08/hamas-dershowitz-israel-gaza/print
- Worse than the Holocaust? what are you talikng about!! Somettimes I feel that the peoples of the world *envy* the Jews about being gassed in chambers, because they somehow feel "Oh, those damn Jews, they had this Holocaust and we wish we could have the same thing for our people so we could SHOW OFF with it all the time!!. This is carzy. Israel wants to survive in a hostile and a hating environment, ever since it was established, AFTER the Holocaust. Even before 1967, the Arabs never accepted us, and wanted to destroy this tiny country, while the area of the Arab nations is larger than Europe. But if you want to talk about history, seriously, we'll do that some other time.
- I'm in favor of a Palestinian state. All I want is this: no missiles, no suicide bombers. Can you give that? Yes, No? What say you? I have no time. I have to go to work, I have to vote next month. Please give me a solution. By the way, the Palestinian in the West Bank, the brothers of the ones in Gaza, I have to say, they don't fire missiles, they no longer send suicide bombers, and see this wonder: they live in peace! They have their own authority, they have quiet, and if they'll continue in this path, Israel would give them anything - on a silver plate (except immigration into Israel of course, since after all, they want their OWN state don't they?) John Hyams (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC) Also I have not heard the Palestinians in the West Bank complaining that Israel fights Hamas in Gaza. There. John Hyams (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
-
- I will not be able to reply until after the 21st of this month. In the mean time, I recommend you read the following articles:
- http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/nazi-israel-indeed/ - Just the title makes me want to puke. Since when you take a hating blogger seriously? And this is offensive, do not ever post Nazi-related things. John Hyams (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html - A one-sided article, not surprising at all from Al Jazera. John Hyams (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Also, those are very important:
- http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/history.cfm - "Important you say"... c'mon, this is just another crackpot site with false claims that have no grounds in reality or whatever. How did you dig it out I don't know. John Hyams (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/Anti-Zionism - Yes I know all about the Jews who don't want Israel to exist. So? What's your point? this is nothing new and it means totally nothing to me. John Hyams (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Also check this out:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYbSQUBqkSU - This is really funny, I never knew these guys have Israeli passports in the first place. If they do, their passport should be revoked immediately. This is nothing new, these guys are the Neturei Karta who oppose Israel even since it was established. They kissed with Ahmedinejad and they participated in the Holocaust denial "conference". Poor stuff. John Hyams (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Now sit and relax and watch these during your vacation:
- Sooner than I wanted to but worth it.
- You now want to continue the discussion. OK. But before, please note that you are in no position to judge whether I have integrity and balance or not. We represent opposed sides and your judgment is only worth something to you. A judge of integrity would be a neutral outsider. So hey! Welcome to Misplaced Pages. As for balance, I hope by balance you don’t mean “not having strong beliefs that I’m passionate about” because if that is what balance is, then I’m not balanced. And indeed, this argument may go on and on and it is highly unlikely that it would come to a common agreement point. Still, I bother. I try to present to someone living in his own world of media and upbringing something new that he might not have known before, just for the sake of it. For you, the truth may lie in between, but for me, the truth is crystal clear as I will explain forward.
- Let us discuss the conflict on two fronts, current events and the roots. I am an engineering student (exams are the reason why I wanted to postpone my reply) and scientific thinking instructs that to solve any problem, you go to the root, not just the symptoms. You say I am biased against Israel, but I say that I am an anti-Zionist. You certainly showed interest in knowing where I live, but sir, it is up to me if I would like to share that information with you, and I don’t. Democracy is great and all, and I am glad that I am free to believe and think and do what I want, but the world’s implementation of democracy is highly overrated and I have thoughts on that but it’s not our subject. There is a lot of hypocrisy in this world, don’t you think? Isn’t the “Vito” an act of dictatorship? Five nations rule the world? What makes what America or Russia thinks more important than what Brazil or Egypt or Malaysia thinks? And you can immigrate anywhere you want, regardless of what I think, as long as you don’t decide to make your own country on other people’s land and cause another exodus.
- Regarding your scary-tale, (fairy tale) I would give you my exact address and coordinates if I was the one occupying other peoples’ land. See, If I was living in the land that “Jamal’s” grandfather used to live on and harvest, if I kicked his grandfather out and killed many of his family members, If now “Jamal” lives as a refugee in his own country, If I humiliate him and give him just enough food not to die, If I kill him and then pride myself about sending him aids, then I wouldn’t mind “Jamal’s” grads falling right on my head. Instead of retaliating then, I would beg for his forgiveness on the mistakes my people are doing, since they had no right in taking his land and I have no right in living on his grandfathers property. And you know what more? I would give him back his land, his dignity. If he fires rockets at me after I’ve left his land (all of it), if he still wants to kill me after I’ve left him alone in his lands to flourish and live in prosperity without siege, I would send my F16s, not to just to kill him, but to throw WP on all his relatives, gladly, and with a rested spirit.
- If Islamic resistance wanted to kill Venezuelans and Bolivians just because they don’t live by Islam, you could call them fascists. Did they ever say or do anything giving the intent that they want to kill peaceful kids of South Africa? (Hamas, not Qaeda, whom I strongly oppose) Or are they focused on you only? Why do you think that is? Does it have anything to do with our imaginary friend “Jamal”? After all, Hamas is a mix of the words “Movement of Islamic Resistance” They call themselves “resistors”. Hamas and all the other Islamic groups fighting in Gaza, what are they resisting? Is it by any chance the occupation of “Jamal’s” property? I repeat. I am not a fan of Hamas, (though I don’t find a problem if I were) after all it is just a name. There are millions of unheard people in the Palestinian exodus.
Ok, let me now tell you about the imaginary people that are called “Utopians”. Utopians lived scattered all around the world, citizens in many countries having all their rights. Then, someone who loves the fact that he’s Utopian, decided that Utopians should have their own country. He started an ideology, Utopianism, and started gathering Utopianists. The Ideology grew stronger with the Utopians in powerful positions in powerful countries. Utopianism chose New York as a promised land, since once, a Utopian “mysteriously” found a piece of stone under Broadway Street with a script written on it that goes: “Broadway, Oh Utopians. It is your promised land. New York is your country. Oh, chosen people.”
- At that time, the United States was a falling empire. And somehow, Brazil, a strong empire with an industrial revolution of its own, thought that it had the right to make a “legal” promise to give Utopians the land of New York, a land Brazil did not own and one that it had already occupied and wanted to leave. However, before year 2248, there were plenty of native New Yorkers, people who have history, pride and the right to their own lands, though they were welcoming and naive. So Brazil decided to give weapons to Utopians and encourage them to immigrate to New York from all over the world.
- Finally, Utopia is born as a parasite in the land of New Yorkers. Armed with Brazil’s weapons and influence it keeps getting stronger. Utopians take half of New York and New Yorkers resist, while some of them agree to live outside their lands. More than 60 years pass. Utopians still want to find that piece of stone under Broadway Street. They still occupy New York. Some New Yorkers fire rockets on their own lands in an attempt to free it. Utopia throws everything it has at them, the latest weapons of all kinds, by sea, air, land. After all, Brazil would not let the world oppose Utopia.
- Anyone who opposes Utopia is labeled a “terrorist”, “extremist”, “New Yorkerist”. Utopia, according to the world that has forgotten the past, has the right to live in peace. And it is New Yorkers who are the offenders.
See? Now tell me. Do you have the right to be a settler there? That’s about it for history. You said you don’t want to talk about it. History is where you Israelis find yourselves ethically broke. Where was your grandfather born? Russia? Ukraine?
- Now, I move to current events. And on that I must ask rhetorically “What world do you live in?” It is one of two possibilities, you either are just lying, or you don’t know the truth by saying Israel doesn’t target civilians intentionally. Also, do you even believe yourself when you say that even if you didn’t want to commit genocide you wouldn’t have been able to avoid it? So Israel bombed the UNRWA HQ twice, once by artillery and once an airstrike unintentionally? Just now, the former Mayor of London said: “If a politician tries to deal with Arabs and Israelis fairly, they would be called anti-Semites”. And it is Israel who uses you in settlements as human shields, thinking that Israel will have a strategic depth to protect Tel Aviv.
Gaza is the most populated place on earth; half the people living there are from other places in occupied Palestine (pre 1948). Also, another fact to rebut your argument is that today Israel proudly announced that it killed a leader in Hamas. How could they reach a single person through all these people and still kill a thousand civilians and wound more than five thousand “by mistake”? This is nonsense! What damn booby traps? What are you talking about? Next thing you are going to tell me that WP bombs are thrown by Hamas! Today the HQ of Fox News, ZDF, and RT was bombed. Where there Hamas fighters hiding with the Fox News team? And your democracy denies foreign reporters to enter Gaza to document the genocide. And your army targets Red Cross workers and the UN mission.
- On the matter of a Palestinian state, who are you to be in favor of a state or not? You are no more than an aggressor living temporarily on someone else’s land! And don’t brag about your job, try studying electrical engineering and then tell me if you have free time. Oh, and you seriously you should switch channels if you haven’t seen the people in the West-Bank unhappy about the new holocaust! Or read Haaretz, where someone wrote that now that the Palestinian Authorities in the West Bank is doing the Israeli army’s job in stopping protests, Abbas can be seen as a trustworthy companion. You call humiliation peace? Could you give Palestinians their lands back on your silver plate and go back to Europe and Russia? Who the hell wants to immigrate to Israel? Arabs don’t accept the fact that it exists and will never validate its existence. There you go.
- Contrieng (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- I will relate only to "someone else's" land. Dear boy, this is our land, has always been, ever since the 12 tribes of Israel inhabited this land, with King David (he is regarded as a prophet in Islam as well), and King Solomon, who built God's temple in Jerusalem. The Assyrians destroyed the Kingdom of Israel, and later the Babylonians the Kingdom of Judah (Jew-->Jude-->Judah). Persia then allowed the Jews to return to their country (after the Babylonian exile) and they remained there until the times of the Romans. The Romans eventually destroyed the Jewish homeland, and a period of almost 2000 years of exile started. Many conquerors came and went, including the last ones, the Ottomans and British. They were conquerors, this land was never theirs. These conquerors encouraged the import of Arabs into the land of Israel, but that does not mean this land was theirs to give.
- Here's a short summary of history:
- And, there was never a "Palestinian people" prior to 1967. The Palestinian nation is an invention, and under Jordan and Egypt prior to 1967, they did not even exist as a "nation". My dear anti-Zionist friend, the Jews returned to this country by right, a moral and historical right. We have no other place, we were hated and exterminated in Europe, and no where is a place that we can call home. If you do not accept this, it is your problem, one that you will have to live with until the rest of your life. I am sorry to dissapoint you, but we are here to stay, forever and ever. God is with us (he gave it to us), we are the decendants of Jacob, and the tibe of Judah (Kind David's tribe).
- Farewell! :-) Live long and prosper. John Hyams (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPVQxWNtUQ
-
Sir, coming from a place means you had a life there, not that 3600 years ago, someone with the
same religion lived there. And, you have a place to return to, the place where you came from.
So in one reply you praise me for knowing my history, then you ask me whether they teach me history
or not? that is weird. Of course you are not going to move, the situation is totally with you
at the moment. But in the future, (the near future, hopefully) you will be given one of two choices:
either to stay where you are but accept that all the people of palestine return to their lands
and have their country be called palestine again. Or you could move back to any other place that
accepts you.
I will not comment on your religious beliefs. I am not at all interested whether you fast or not. But since you have some false perceptions about Islam, I would recommend you buying a copy of a translated quran and read it. I do not care if you do or not, but what I am saying is that I am not going to try to defend my glorious religion to someone who has no scientific base to his argument.
I repeat. A member of your religion having lived there 3600 years or so ago, does not give you the right to kick the people out. Also, even if you were kicked out and mistreated, it doesn't mean that you are allowed to do the same to other people.
You certainly love the phrase:"intention, or the lack of it, makes the difference between
violence and accident." I repeat once more, Israel had the full intention if killing civilians
go back to the previous reply that I wrote for further information.
Sir, Fatah people are corrupt traytors, I certainly know so because one of my far relatives is A big someone in Fattah (not mentioning names). Fatah do not represent the people.
Hamas are teaching children that "What is taken by force is only returned by force" Hamas is not telling children to go to the front and fight. There are no children fighters and therefore there is no abuse.
Sir, If you think that Islam is violent, you haven't read your own "book of myths". But, again I am not going to talk to you about Islam until you grab a copy of Quran and read it.
My motive is to have justice in this world, especially to my oppressed people.
Again, by saying what you said about an "agenda", it is clear you do not understand what I am saying and you still are putting words in my mouth, or worse, thoughts in my head!
And no, the unfortunate declaration of the state of Israel is the source of my interest. Not the recent Gaza holaucost.
About Jordan, yes our rulers have accepted Israel, they have their own perspective that I strongly disagree with. Having asked for peace, and accepting the current situation that "israel is there" does not mean in any way that thay validate your historical tales. My oppinions strongly oppose those of my government. I do think that Fattah are corrupt and would like the embassy of yours to be closed, I went on demonstrations for that purpose. Again, as long as I am free to think or do or believe or act in any way I want, then I live in a democracy. Again, democracy is overrated, ask arab israelis.
And I must say, it is funny when you say "muhabarat" it's not an h in muhabarat.
Why does it really matter to you if I am in Jordan or not? In a democracy or not? That is just ignorant of you! You should have respected the fact that I am a human being with thoughts regardless of where I live. I certainly respect your opinions regardless of how much I disagree with them!
Also, your mannerisms in talking to me are turning from an educated argument to some kind of cat-fight or street-fight. If you keep this going I will not continue. Shame on you!
Also, It occurred to me while seeing this argument going on and on that a jew might have had a very similar argument with a nazi, telling the nazi: "you are not a better race, and you shouldn't have gassed my famliy". The nazi would say: "No we have scientific proof that we are a better race and you must be gassed." That is no different from your argument:"We have historical proof that we must live here and you must be thrown out."
It took me less than a week to realise that discussion with people such as you does not have a positive outcome. and that what is taken by force is only returned by force. It's too bad the kings and presidents of arab countries haven't realised that for more than 60 years!
Don't call me a poor man. A poor man is a man who lives on other people's land ever so scared that people want him out. A poor man is one who plays the victim and hides behind politically correct sayings. A poor man is someone who accepts dead children as a part of retaliation. A poor man is a man who did not renew the passport of the country to which he will one day have to return.
And there is no rush. none at all. nothing lasts forever. Contrieng (talk) 16:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust
Hi John,
while I probably agree with you about the aims of the conference, your additions are not actually well-sourced. Finding generic hate and stupidity cannot be used to support a specific statement. Also, you are by now way over WP:3RR (a revert under that rule is any edit that undoes part of the work of another editor), so please step a bit more careful and wait for the outcome of the discussion on the talk page before making contested changes. Wikipedians are a very mixed bag, but on the whole a tolerant and very much anti-hate crowd. --Stephan Schulz 19:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have read the 3RR policy and found that my case falls in the exceptions. Anyway, the issue was resolved, eventually. Thanks for the comment. John Hyams 20:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I suggest you check some cases on WP:AN/3RR. I don't know which exceptions you claim, but I see no obvious candidates. I hope you don't count on "simple, obvious vandalism". Anyways, good luck and good editing!--Stephan Schulz 22:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- No, it was disguised Antisemitism, being masked as "objective edits" by some editors. In other words, "sophisticated, non-obvious vandalism", which is much more dangerous that obvious vandalism. Posts of mine that were brutally deleted without discussion or any plausible reasoning, even those that I cited properly. Eventually, the same "not sourced" posts of mine were sourced, and everyone accepted it, but I was amazed of the ignorance of people. How could I source things that I hear on the radio almost every day?? I live in this reality, but if there are no source links - it counts as "not actually well-sourced". More than half of Misplaced Pages is not well sourced, I can by the same logic delete half of Misplaced Pages for not providing enough suitable sources. Anyway, I would have taken this issue up to Jimbo Wales (I was about to post this debate to the mass TV media), but eventually my edit was basically accepted. Know this, although what you say about Wikipedians, I cannot always trust that claim, and Misplaced Pages is not a grand stage for supporting half truths, originated in biased/hate attitudes. If it's not in the policies or guidelines, then maybe I should put the same fight on those pages. But thanks for being so concerned for me. John Hyams 09:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- However, "sophisticated, non-obvious vandalism" is not exempt from WP:3RR. And Jimbo's (and Misplaced Pages's) position has always been "Verifiability, not truth" (WP:V), because "truth" is hard to establish and reasonable people can differ about what it true. I do not, for example, agree with your view that most of your opposers were motivated by anti-semitism. I know that I'm not.
- Re. verifiability: Sorry, but your personal perception of reality is not verifiable, and has no place on Misplaced Pages. But much of what you talk about is verifiable. There may be transcripts of the radio programs (and then it should be reported as "according to radio station X, ..."), and the same topics are usually taken up by newspapers, many of which nowadays have online editions that make verification easy. It's not that we do not want this information, but we want it in a high-quality, checkable, enduring format, so that people can rely on it. Otherwise, this site is not more credible than some arbitrary blog (of which there are plenty). --Stephan Schulz 10:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK, basically I agree with you, and I hope not to be in such a position again. I can see that you are a good Misplaced Pages editor. John Hyams 10:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Glad we found agreement. I'll go and buy myself a banana now ;-) --Stephan Schulz 10:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK, basically I agree with you, and I hope not to be in such a position again. I can see that you are a good Misplaced Pages editor. John Hyams 10:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Your message to administrators
I totally agree with you, administrators just go around doing what they want. They also put far too many articles up for speedy deletion. Djmckee1 18:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Ghazan
Hi John! Thank you for your comments on Ghazan. It has been a great pleasure for me to expand articles on the Ilkhanate indeed. Best regards. PHG (talk) 06:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Notification of restrictions
As a result of an arbitration case, the Arbitration committee has acknowledged long-term and persistent problems in the editing of articles related to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, broadly understood. As a result, the Committee has enacted broad editing restrictions, described here and below.
- Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.
- The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
- Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.
- Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently WP:AE), or the Committee.
These editing restrictions may be applied to any editor for cause, provided the editor has been previously informed of the case. This message is to so inform you. This message does not necessarily mean that your current editing has been deemed a problem; this is a template message crafted to make it easier to notify any user who has edited the topic of the existence of these sanctions.
Generally, the next step, if an administrator feels your conduct on pages in this topic area is disruptive, would be a warning, to be followed by the imposition of sanctions (although in cases of serious disruption, the warning may be omitted). Hopefully no such action will be necessary.
This notice is only effective if given by an administrator and logged here.