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Cold fusion topic bans

Statement by JzG

This concerns the topic ban of Pcarbonn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion.

Note, current dispute is here. Thatcher 14:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

As the evidence page makes clear, Pcarbonn's agenda was supported by Jed Rothwell of lenr-canr.org - in fact, it was rather the other way round. For many months, Rothwell has promoted his site on Misplaced Pages through talk page postings solely related to cold fusion. He and Pcarbonn also collaborated on a knol which seeks to "balance" the newly NPOV'd article on cold fusion, see . I believe it was Rothwell who published Pcarbonn's self-congratulatory article on how he had "won the battle" on Misplaced Pages. Rothwell's relentless promotion of his website was a factor in it being blacklisted () and since Pcarbonn's topic ban Rothwell has resurfaced several times at different IPs (he has been IP-hopping for a long time, his account JedRothwell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is essentially abandoned). I have extended the topic ban to cover Rothwell on the grounds that:

• He is furthering the same WP:BATTLE that got Pcarbonn sanctioned
• He is effectively editing on behalf of a banned user
• He is a disruptive single-purpose account
• He assiduously promotes his own website

It would seem to me to be utterly perverse to fail to do this. A restriction would be in order anyway due to trolling, WP:SPA concerns, WP:FRINGE violations, questions over linking to copyright material hosted in violation of copyright and so on; as it happens the behaviour of Jed Rothwell is also precisely analogous to that which got Pcarbonn topic-banned only less civil.

I thought this was simple and obvious, but there is some kickback. I'm somewhat puzzled as to why, but I think it's probably worth requesting clarification that, in cases where someone exhibits similar behaviour and supports the same agenda as a topic-banned user, and that person is known to be a close collaorator of the restricted user in an area where the restriction applies, and the individual is a single-purpose account, then the same restriction may be applied. Guy (Help!) 22:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

@ Dan: A "tight clique"? Of "well-connected Wikipedians?" I don't know whether to chide you for WP:ABF or to laugh out loud at the hilariously inaccurate idea that I am part of a clique of well-connected anything! I have been an outsider pretty much all my life, and that's pushing towards the half century mark now. Where does this clique supposedly communicate? I cannot even begin to take your comment seriously - the whole problem with Pcarbonn is precisely that he does not fit your characterisation, he was the very archetype of a civil POV-pusher, which is why it took such an unconscionably long time to get him dealt with properly. Rothwell is more uncivil, I will grant you, but even then he scarcely fits the model you describe and I absolutely cannot see how your characterisation of a clique fits in any meaningful way with this case. I think you are seeing cabals under the bed to mix a metaphor. Guy (Help!) 23:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• Addendum: Gen ato (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be another WP:SPA who has piled right in with POV edits like and argumentation. Guy (Help!) 00:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

View by Thatcher

This is obvious. The principle you want has been made explicit in many cases and I see no reason to force a long process and vote here. Apply the topic ban. Thatcher 23:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Dan, we're not talking about getting rid of all proponents of cold fusion, and we're not even talking about the applications of discretionary sanctions. We're talking about an editor whose edits and agenda are substantially the same as an editor who was topic banned by a 7-1 vote of Arbcom in the actual arbitration case. Having a friend, colleague or business associate make edits on your behalf after you have been banned from making them is certainly grounds for extension of the topic ban to the second editor. Thatcher 14:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Enric Naval

Two editors are defending that the ban does not exist because:

1. there was not enough discussion at the AN thread discussing the ban
2. the ban is not listed at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions
3. none of his previous IPs were blocked
4. his abandoned account User:JedRothwell is not blocked
5. the banning admin is involved

It should be made clear that none of the above are requirements for a WP:BAN. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A few days before his ban, I had already reported Jed to WP:AE here with a lot of diffs showing OR, COI, wikilawyering to ignore reliable sources, etc.

Reply to Tobias: Jed doesn't need to be goaded, he can be as unreasonable as necessary all by himself --Enric Naval (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Abd: Uh, arbcom already ratified "an exclusion of COI and SPA editors from Talk, based on POV" when it banned User:Pcarbonn for his edits on the talk page. And they did the same with User:DanaUllman. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Carcharot: I totally agree that these problems come from using WP:MEAT as one of the reasons for the topic ban. As you say, he simply should have been topic banned for the same reasons as Pcarbonn. There were enough other reasons to topic ban Jed without invoking WP:MEAT. Ídem for Gen Ato, any ban should be under its own reasons and under under WP:MEAT.

To clarify, there are two different solutions that are getting confused:

• formally extend Pcarbonn's arbcom ban so that it also covers Jed (this needs a motion)
• topic ban Jed for the same reasons that Pcarbonn was banned, with no relationship to Pcarbonn's ban other than using the same reasons (this doesn't need a motion)

--Enric Naval (talk) 16:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Jed's attitude

Jed:

• is decided to violate his ban because he has nothing to lose .
• has zero repentance and/or acceptance of any fault of his own: he believes that he was not banned because of his behaviour or attitude, but because of "ignorant bullies who shred reputation in public", "extremists", replacement of expert works with nonsense, etc . (and this is just his latest comment)
• self-explanatory: "apparently you people are trying to ban me by banning the IP. Good luck! You will have to ban all of BellSouth. (...)I did not realize what "IP hopper" meant, but I am glad to see that I have stumbled upon a method of defeating you, and annoying you." --Enric Naval (talk) 23:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Gen Ato

This guy was making a school project to see if wikipedia had a "firewall" to prevent the insertion on articles of "other scientifically credited and published points of view", and then make his pupils discuss our reactions, see User_talk:Gen_ato#Thank_You.2C_My_experiment_was_successful.21. Totally unrelated to Jed, Pcarbonn and any of their goals. The experiment is now finished, so it's not worth doing bannign anything as the disruption has stopped. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

The relevant policy is WP:MEAT. A meatpuppet account may not be used to circumvent a topic ban. Any such accounts may be blocked to enforce the ban. Jehochman 13:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Dtobias

Banning people because they have a strong opinion on one side of a contentious issue, while leaving those with similarly strong opinions on the other side with free rein, seems hardly like a good way to ensure balanced NPOV on that topic. A famous case in the past history of Misplaced Pages of that vein was the Naked short selling, Mantanmoreland (et al) vs. Wordbomb (et al) case, where some of the same people arguing for a tough line against Rothwell (et al) were supporters of the "Zero tolerance, shoot on sight" slanted policy in that earlier case... see where it ended up. *Dan T.* (talk) 13:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I've seen similar sequences of events in lots of cases. When a tight clique of well-connected Wikipedians wants to marginalize some viewpoint as "fringe", the thing to do is first get a leading advocate of that position banned (or at least topic-banned). Perhaps he even deserves it; it's advantageous to pick the most uncivil, unreasonable, COI, obsessive-compulsive person as the designated target. However, it might still be necessary to goad him a little; be uncivil to him in the hopes he retaliates in kind to give an excuse to ban him; quote heaps of acronym-soup Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines, and essays at him and then accuse him of wikilawyering if he actually tries to rigorously comply with them; and keep moving the goalposts around until he gets frustrated and lashes back. Then, get him banned, preferably with a minimum of actual community discussion. If discussion is needed, present a slanted, biased account of how pernicious he is; don't worry about getting facts straight because it's your word against his, and you're the respected Wikipedian. Then, once the ban is solid, apply the "If a banned user says 2+2=4, everybody else had better say it's 3 or 5, or else they're acting in concert with a banned user to promote his agenda!" rule to suppress all other viewpoints of a similar nature, even if expressed civilly. If you can blacklist all outside sites that have such opinions in them, all the better. *Dan T.* (talk) 18:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by TS

I think we're going to have to go to a motion. The contrarian tendency has the bit between its teeth, so it's best to go by the book in such cases. I'm sorry, I'm a great fan of "Ignore all rules", but that doesn't work in cases like this. --TS 14:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

For evidence, all that is needed is this edit on User talk:Phil153 in which Jed Rothwell completely misses the point made by Phil153 in the comment to which he is replying, refers to Phil153 and others as "you skeptics", and promotes an extremely partisan position (his own). This is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages, and comments of that sort should not be made on Misplaced Pages. A topic ban would be appropriate, if only to spare the valuable time those who have already done excellent work in salvaging the cold fusion article. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. --TS 17:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Please do your homework, Carcharoth. He was topic banned some time ago but there are some people wikilawyering over it. Do not falsely accuse Guy of acting pre-emptively. --TS 08:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Fully agree with Carcharoth that the grounds need to be clarified. Jed Rothwell's conduct and stated purpose in editing are incompatible with Misplaced Pages. Whether he is or is not a meatpuppet, or sharing opinions with somebody else who has also been been banned (because of that person's conduct, not his opinions), or has or has not got a professional relationship with the other person, is not material here. The issue is that a pattern of disruption has re-emerged in the wake of an arbitration case that was supposed to address that disruption. --TS 15:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd take Gen.ato's claim that he was performing a "test" with a pinch of salt. It's a fairly well known face-saving device in online communities to say "I was testing you." I don't think there are any serious conduct issues with Gen.ato; he has probably simply not yet had time to adjust to the difference between Italian and English Misplaced Pages. --TS 19:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Abd

There is no apparent meat puppetry, no evidence has been presented of that. Rothwell and Pcarbonn are unrelated, as far as anything I've seen. JzG is an involved editor and, if needed, evidence can be provided (it's blatant from Cold fusion article history). JzG is bringing this here prematurely; only the first step of WP:DR had been applied. There are many examples of abuse of admin tools in the record, in my opinion, but attempts to resolve this at a low level were far from complete. ArbComm should not decide on a ban of an editor without the necessary process protections. JzG has asserted block violation by Rothwell, but the record shows the opposite, apparently. Rothwell apparently complied with JzG's involved (and therefore improper) block on December 18, and did not return to editing except after a month. JzG appears to have blocked a different IP editor based on presumed similarity of position, when the behavior of that other editor was clearly different and there is no sign that Rothwell would partition his behavior in that way; then JzG asserted block violation as a reason for his new block. The problem is that an involved administrator has become prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner, pursuing his own clearly expressed bias and POV, which apparently warps his administrative judgment. All of this could be established with clarity from the record. I was hoping to avoid that, but JzG has pushed the issue here. There are many other related issues, as well, of major import. The blacklist is being used to assert a content position, not merely to prevent linkspam; it's been applied, by JzG, to back up his edits removing sources that were considered acceptable by editorial consensus. Talk page edits by Rothwell, not containing a link but merely the name of his domain -- his title -- are the only evidence presented for linkspam, and another simultaneous blacklisting, of newenergytimes.com, was also accomplished by him -- not following the blacklist procedure -- without any evidence of linkspam, not even weak. This is a personal agenda and content position being implemented with admin tools, without consensus, and it is damaging the project.

I had been considering whether or not to take the issue of the block of Rothwell IP to AN, given that a request to JzG didn't accomplish reversal, but had not concluded that it would be worthy of the possible disruption. I was considering finding another editor to mediate the dispute, then possible formal mediation, and only if these failed would I have considered escalating. But JzG apparently considers this worthy of immediate ArbComm attention. I would strongly object to a premature decision here. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• The suggestion "Apply the topic ban" implies a judgment on the merits of the claim made by JzG that alleged similarity of POV is sufficient to establish meat puppetry, a very dangerous judgment in a field where there are many with the POV, including authors being published in peer-reviewed journals. I see only two reasonable courses for ArbComm: decline the case as premature, given that all that existed is that two editors requested an unblock from JzG, no wider review had been undertaken except a little discussion on Talk:Cold fusion, and the protesting editors had not escalated; or take the case and examine it in detail, based on issues of possible administrative abuse, or, on the other hand, the possibility that JzG's allegations are true and his behavior appropriate even if outside of normal process. --Abd (talk) 15:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• The suggestion that Rothwell published Pcarbonn's article is false. The article was published on newenergytimes.com, an on-line magazine, and the editor of that is certainly not a friend of Rothwell. --Abd (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• The WP:SPA argument is irrelevant and specious in context. Rothwell is an expert in the field, published, and the "librarian" of the most complete bibliography and repository of permitted copies for free access of published papers on the internet, on the topic (positive and negative or neutral). As someone with a COI, he's expected not to contentiously edit the article, and he doesn't. He only comments in Talk. So, ArbComm is being asked to ratify an exclusion of COI and SPA editors from Talk, based on POV, which would seal and enshrine a general exclusion of minority opinion, no matter how notable. Rothwell is sometimes uncivil, but that's common with experts. It should be addressed directly, not complicated with matters of "fringe" and the rest. He's been treated uncivilly with, for example, false or unsupported allegations of copyright violation; if we could stop and prevent that, we might be able to engage with him more positively. Or not, and then he'd be properly blocked for that, not for merely expressing his allegedly fringe opinion. --Abd (talk) 16:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• No claim is made by me that Rothwell should not be banned, though it would set a bad precedent. It's moot at the moment, he's blocked, properly or not. However, a topic ban would deserve careful consideration, and the situation is complicated by long-term incivility against him, prior action against him by an involved admin that wasn't questioned and was thus assumed to represent the whole community (which appears to have not noticed it), false allegations of copyright violation (this is actually libel in context), and other issues that could easily explain incivility or rash comments in response. Normally, we wouldn't ban from an RfAr request like JzG's, without prior community process, and without opportunity for full presentation of evidence, etc. The only prior process that I can find is an inconclusive AN report, low participation, there was no neutral closing admin, no binding warning to the editor, and only an involved admin who argued for a ban, decided it, and acted on it. --Abd (talk) 18:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• As I have been asked to provide evidence regarding the involvement of JzG in Cold fusion and his administrative actions taken in neglect of his involvement, I have created an evidence page at User:Abd/JzG with a record of his edits to Cold fusion and his related administrative actions (involving the use of admin tools). I conclude that JzG was an involved editor, and used his tools to further his position in disputes. He deleted a relevant Talk page, recently active; he edited a page to his preferred version and then protected it; he edited articles with links accepted by consensus to remove the links and then blacklisted the web sites to prevent reversion; and he blocked editors based on POV. And this is just with respect to Cold fusion, he's very active elsewhere. I had no prior dispute with JzG, indeed, I respected him and had been supported by him. It's puzzling and sad. --Abd (talk) 04:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• In the middle of this, JzG archived his Talk page with the discussion about his block of Rothwell, which is elsewhere cited here. This is a permanent link to the discussion as it sat when archived (three relevant sections). --Abd (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Roger Davies wrote, This can be (and should be) dealt with by the community first. Absolutely. What I've presented here was simply to point out the danger of jumping to conclusions, I was concerned that ArbComm might, as hinted by some, issue a motion without going through the process of allowing presentation of evidence and adequate discussion, etc., and based on a radical bypass of normal community process by a premature direct appeal to ArbComm. --Abd (talk) 21:31, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by User:GoRight

I came into this as a completely uninvolved editor. I only became aware of the controversy surrounding the Cold Fusion case through User:Abd. I have not made any content contributions to the page because I am familiarizing myself with the topic. As part of that effort I was reading the talk page for Cold Fusion where I came upon the "reminder" that Rothwell is topic banned. As someone who is currently under an editing restriction I am familiar with the normal process for instituting such a thing. As a point of interest I decided to look into the specifics of this ban. What I found was disturbing, IMHO.

The first thing I did was check Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions to verify that the ban was recorded. This seems a simple thing. As one would expect we find User:Pcarbonn listed there, but not a word about Rothwell. Thinking this might have been an oversight I went back and reviewed the community discussion where the topic ban had supposedly taken place here and here. What I found was a small handful of mostly involved editors expressing general support for a topic ban but no particular declaration thereof as one would expect. I assume that a community ban requires more than just a handful of editors complaining on WP:AN. In response to queries for additional evidence of a ban I was directed to this. This is the only place where I have found a direct assertion of a ban having been imposed. On it's face this appears to be User:JzG simply making a unilateral declaration of a topic ban. Again, I assume that a community ban requires more than just one administrator, no matter how well meaning, to institute a ban.

Even so, I did not want to assume anything so I sought direct confirmation of the ban from User:JzG who was the administrator making the assertion, and asked him to clarify whether he believed that an enforcible topic ban was in place for Rothwell and, if so, to please record that fact at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions so that uninvolved administrators would have the benefit of this clear identification of such and thereby facilitate the enforcement of the ban, if it existed. This too seemed straight forward if such a ban actually existed. Failing to record a topic ban will only aid the banned user, no?

Well no such clear recording of the ban has been forthcoming, which leads me to the conclusion that the ban does not actually exist despite the best intentions of those making the claim. I have taken no particular action based on this conclusion other than to assert it and to repeat my request that, if a ban actually exists, that it be properly recorded. I have reverted nothing of Rothwell's.

I claim that there is no policy that directly makes a topic ban transitive from one use to another. The action taken against User:Pcarbonn does not mention any other users, so to assert that User:Pcarbonn's ban is actually also a topic ban for some other editor seems ludicrous. What is the basis for deciding which other users should formally have a ban on them as well? There is none. It is completely arbitrary. Therefore in my view it should be obvious that the action taken against User:Pcarbonn in no way restricts the ability of other users to express their own independent opinions. There is no disagreement that User:Pcarbonn and Rothwell are separate individuals. Rothwell is thus free to express his own opinions.

Now, WP:MEAT certainly could apply IF there is clear evidence that Rothwell is merely editing on User:Pcarbonn's behalf (as opposed to expressing his own personal views). I have requested that such evidence be put forth, but to the best of my knowledge no direct evidence of this has been provided. The fact that Rothwell and User:Pcarbonn share similar views and may even have interacted off-wiki is certainly not clear evidence that Rothwell's actions are being directed by User:Pcarbonn as WP:MEAT would require. We can't just take a ban on one user and use that as a mechanism to silence other users who happen to share similar views.

In the end, my only purpose in all of this was to get a clear and unambiguous statement as to whether Rothwell actually does have a topic ban, or not, and if so to have that recorded at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions so that all of this senseless and time consuming bickering over the point can be put to rest.

While I accept that User:JzG has the best interests of the encyclopedia at heart and is acting in good faith, I also believe that he is clearly involved in the dispute and has been using his administrative tools against a user who, as far as I can see, does not have a topic ban against him. In that sense this is merely a content dispute between User:JzG and Rothwell. I am not seeking any actions be taken against User:JzG in this case, but I would certainly think that all of the following principles which were expressed in prior arbcom rulings are applicable in this case:

• Compliance
• Use of administrative tools in a dispute
• Bad Blood
• Good intentions
• Harassment is disruptive

I offer these merely for your review and consideration. --GoRight (talk) 19:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• I would also say that I agree with the observation below that the existing policies are sufficient to deal with this editor if his behavior continues unabated. Specifically WP:CIVIL and WP:DISRUPT and, if proven, WP:MEAT are more than sufficient to address the concerns here. I, personally, would not favor the introduction of a topic ban on this editor since such action is, again in my view, unnecessary. --GoRight (talk) 19:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• To Thatcher and other proponents of the WP:MEAT view of the situation, where is the evidence that Rothwell is acting on User:Pcarbonn's behalf or direction? Are we able to apply WP:MEAT to anyone with no evidence? --GoRight (talk) 02:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• To the arbitors, please answer the fundamental question. Does Rothwell have a topic ban imposed specifically on him? If so, should this not be recorded at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions? If not, should all of his edits be removed on sight or is he free to make constructive, on-topic, and civil edits or comments on Cold Fusion (yes, I know that this is rare, apparently)? Can (and/or should) the WP:MEAT argument be applied to any and all editors who may be sympathetic to User:Pcarbonn's position (even without evidence of collaboration)? --GoRight (talk) 02:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• As an example, User:JzG is now trying to expand the ban to include User:Gen ato simply because he appears to share some of User:Pcarbonn's viewpoint. Do we have evidence of WP:MEAT in this case as well or are we simply going to blindly label people in this manner? --GoRight (talk) 02:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• I just want to be sure that I understand the facts and intentions expressed in the arbitrator votes/discussion below and that I come away from this proceeding with the right message in mind. It would appear to be in the best interests of the project over-all for everyone to do so. I think that I am hearing the following:

1. They are collectively and EXPLICITLY deciding to NOT endorse a topic ban against Rothwell, although some have expressed a willingness to do so if that became necessary.
2. They are collectively agreeing that the existing policies already in place are sufficient to deal with Rothwell and, therefore, no such endorsement of a topic ban against him is required at this time.
3. They are collectively asserting that the entire issue can and should be dealt with by the community before bringing it to this forum.

I don't presume to speak for the arbitrators so if any of this is incorrect, please by all means correct me on these points. --GoRight (talk) 02:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

statement by DGG

There is a secondary issue here which is I think of the utmost importance. JzG is not an uninvolved editor on this subject and has no business making blocks or bans in this area. This is blatant abused of admin privileges, slightly ameliorated by his voluntarily bringing it here. I have no view on the underlying issue of what to do about Rothwell, but I think a topic ban against JzG is called for--and least an injunction of any further actions in this area that do are appear to make use of the admin bit. DGG (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by User:Objectivist

There is no doubt that Pcarbonn and Jed Rothwell have a particular POV. There is also no doubt that other editors have a conflicting POV. But there is a lot of doubt regarding the phrase "meat puppet". To support a particular POV, there is usually a particular set of data available. Two people sharing the same POV are naturally going to reference the same data, in stating their views. To truly qualify as a "meat puppet", one would have to exhibit the same style of phrasing as another --and even then there can be doubt. How many twins or long-married couples are able to finish each other's sentences, after all? I therefore submit that the claim of meat-puppetry is a baseless trumped-up charge.

Next, regarding "link spamming", what about the classic quote: "There is no accounting for taste."? Different people have different notions about what they consider to be spam. Let us pretend for the moment that the ancient Library of Alexandria still existed in full glory, and had full access via a Web address. Most of its works would be copyright-free. How much of Misplaced Pages would contain links to that site, because that is where the source-data is located? If the Head Librarian posted to Misplaced Pages, and always included in message-signing the phrase "Head Librarian, library-of-alexandria.org", how is that a "link spam"? It is not a whole Web address! Are you going to ban that person simply because of being proud to hold that position? And will you also treat that Library the way various religions did in History? "If it holds writings disagreeing with the Holy Book, they are heretical. If it holds writing agreeing with the Holy Book, they are superfluous. Burn them all." (In modern terms, ban references to it-that-holds-the-source-data.)

Next, has anyone considered the possibility that there simply might not be an acceptable way to state certain things about "Cold Fusion" without injecting one POV or the other? Even the very definition of that name has been edited multiple times. Perhaps a phrase like "cold fusion proponents claim" could be used extensively, in order to present relevant information in a neutral way, and a similar phrase could be used with regard to claims made by opponents of cold fusion. However, those phrases would likely have to be used in so many places as to be literally (literarily?) cumbersome --yet without such qualifiers, we are left with specific-POV statements only, which leads to an edit war, and bannings, and proposed bannings.

Isn't there a famous quote to the effect that "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch?" All it takes to institute a ban here, apparently, is enough users of one POV clique or the other. The "losing" POV can be decimated that way, one banned user at a time. My Statement here is: "This is what seems to be happening now."

Would it not be better simply to divide a controversial article into an introductory section (neutral POV should be relatively easy there), followed by POV-pro and POV-con sections? If clearly marked as such, why would any Misplaced Pages reader complain about it? So, to the extent that true neutrality may not be possible to achieve, it nevertheless remains possible to achieve balance . Then Misplaced Pages can ban users who mess up the "other side's" POV, when doing so is simply senseless --it could only be vandalism. V (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

This seems like a pretty basic, if important question. Can we take staightforward actions to protect the encyclopedia's goals and standards? Or have we reached the point where such action, as often as not, bogs down in ? Do we have to flog all the old warhorses every single time? I'm actually about to lose a $5 bet with another admin because no one has mentioned BADSITES yet - I should have bet on Mantanmoreland instead. :P

We're talking about a clear case of WP:ADVOCACY, and violations of this site's standards and purpose over more than 2 years. Blocking IPs used by this editor to commit further violations should be an uncontroversial call. If the concern is that Guy, an involved editor, made the blocks, then I propose that he contact me the next time one of this editor's IP's pops up. To argue that blocks are inappropriate because the editor's abandoned account has never been indef-blocked seems - again, I can't think of a charitable term, but I have rectified that concern ex post facto. MastCell  20:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Phil153

I realize the arbs have already voted but I want to provide evidence to preempt this needless drama in future, and counter claims of suppression within Misplaced Pages. I think the following are clear cut:

• The ban of Rothwell is completely uncontroversial per our policies on talk page etiquette and behavior.

In addition to the points by others above:

• Rothwell does not seek to improve the article despite repeated requests and continues to post only off topic content and OR. Requests:
• Rothwell spams text links to his site in nearly all his signatures, and elsewhere, even after being asked to stop (self promotion - today)
• Rothwell is unusually uncivil and disruptive, even stating that this is his intention. See contrib history, diffs above, plus intention:
• This behavior has gone unchecked for long periods, even while JzG was aware of it. No one was trying to suppress Jed's comments. He was asked nicely to be constructive and was told he would be welcome to discuss suggestions to improve the article. He declined , both explicitly and by later actions.

Given the above, the claims of some systemic suppression of particular POVs surrounding this ban appear to be nothing but dramamongering. Jed has been given free reign on the CF talk page for months, and has chosen not to change his behavior.

• JzG acted with established consensus, and not unilaterally regarding JedRothwell.

• Jed's disruptive, entirely off topic editing was noted by many editors, and the need for a ban was mentioned by other editors: Talk:Cold_fusion#Topic_ban_reminding, Talk:Cold_fusion#Jed_Rothwell, Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_20#Formal_warning (there are other examples)
• Previous accounts by Jed have a history of disruption and blocks, as noted by others. See, for example:

64.247.224.24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and the corresponding block discussion

• JzG is an involved administrator with something of a POV on cold fusion.

Several edits point to this, although I believe them to be good faith if very poorly executed.

• JzG is acting in good faith with ample clue as an administrator and despite the point above, it's obvious that nothing about this block is improper.

For quick reference, here are JedRothwell's IP contributions since Nov 2008: 68.219.153.157,208.89.102.50
208.65.88.140, 68.219.198.240, 208.65.88.200, 68.158.255.197, 208.89.102.114, 68.217.47.115, 68.219.153.139, 69.228.201.246, 68.219.153.139, 68.219.54.221, 68.19.97.69 (the above was added at 23:33, 29 January 2009 by Phil153)

• Comment on why JzG's request for clarification is important.

Arbcom previously ruled in the cold fusion case that a particular civil POV pusher who editing with a stated agenda against Misplaced Pages policy, and caused significant disruption, should be topic banned. But what are we to do if another editor comes along who obviously and beyond all doubt fits the same profile, and is not an obvious sockpuppet or meatpuppet? Is another 20 day formal arbitration process needed? Or can clue can be reasonably applied and the other user blocked under the same general sanctions? That was JzG's reasoning, but it was pushed back hard by user Abd (who also (partly?) disagreed with Pcarbonn's banning). So he brought it here for clarification on the general scope of an Arbcom sanction, which has not been forthcoming by most of the committee. In this particular case, the issue was moot, since the user could be banned under other policies. But the general question still remains. It would be nice to see the committee either shoot down the idea and limit the scope of sanctions and clue as relates to Arbcom decisions, so we clearly know what is and isn't appropriate. Or make clear that it is sufficient to follow the spirit of a ruling in obvious cases and in good faith without needing further procedure (i.e. not a bureaucracy). It is precisely this lack of clarity which has led to this long request for clarification. Phil153 (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Durova

Echoing the concerns of ABD and DGG above: JzG has edited the subject extensively and ought to recuse from administrative intervention there. It's easy enough to post a review request to one of the admin boards when necessary. Appropriate recusal is especially important at high tension subjects that have been through arbitration. Durova 08:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment by User:Rocksanddirt re: admin recusal

While I agree with ABD and DGG above that JzG seems to be an 'involved' user within this subject matter, the filing of this topic ban clarification/application here would (imo) cover the idea that 'review and/or action by others should happen' when someone is involved. Perhaps, this is not the correct venue, but seems well enough and has generated appropriate discussion of the issues and editors for any 'uninvolved admin' to act in a manner the protects the encyclopedia. As such, while I would like to see less admin action from JzG in these situations, I don't think he's been inappropriate with his actions. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I agree with Thatcher. It is quite clear that Jed Rothwell, editing through various IP addresses, has been responsible for all the above. In the event that it is not generally accepted to be an application of ignoring rules then I would propose a motion to give the topic ban the formal endorsement of the committee but at the moment I see no reason to engage in pointless procedure on an obvious decision. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
  • To clarify something raised by Dan T., it does not matter which side editors are on; if we have a dispute where those on one side remain reasonable while those on the other side push their POV and edit-war, then the sanctions are not going to be balanced among the sides. All editors, regardless of their own POV, are supposed to write neutrally. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• I too concur with Thatcher and Sam Blacketer here. This is an excellent example of a situation where sensible application of our policies and procedures covers the issue, and a special sanction is probably not required; I'm not even sure one would have to resort to ignoring rules to do the job. Having said that, if necessary, I would support the formal endorsement of a topic ban. Risker (talk) 23:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Additional comment: There seems to be two thrusts to this request. The first is whether or not these apparently disruptive accounts should be blocked; there is fairly strong consensus amongst the committee that this is a pretty straightforward administrative/community decision that does not need to be escalated to this level, and several members of the committee have explicitly supported such blocks. The second is whether or not JzG should be the admin to effectuate the blocks. I will point out that with 900+ active admins, this question could be made moot by any one of them. Risker (talk) 15:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Where is the "kickback" that JzG mentions? John Vandenberg 13:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• John, I think Guy means "pushback". See Talk:Cold_fusion#Topic_ban_reminding. Thatcher 14:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• At the risk of being redundant, I'll also concur with Thatcher; this is a reasonable action that lies well within community norms. No further action appears to be needed from the Committee at this time. — Coren  20:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• Apply the ban to the second editor, per all of the above. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
• Per Thatcher and Sam Blacketer, no action needed by ArbCom. FloNight♥♥♥ 00:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• As noted above, no action is needed on our part. Vassyana (talk) 06:31, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Just noting that I have followed further replies. There is still nothing that convinces me this is beyond the remit of the community to handle. Vassyana (talk) 04:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• This can be (and should be) dealt with by the community first. --ROGER DAVIES  11:31, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Agreed per all preceding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 18:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Vassyana that the community can handle this for now. Guy bringing this to arbitration for clarification was, in my opinion, premature and pre-emptive. Agree also with GoRight's summary, as it matches my views as well. i.e. I'm not going to endorse the ban, as that would set a precedent of coming to ArbCom to endorse such things (if you are not sure, don't ban). Existing policies should be sufficient to deal with cases like this. And yes, the community should try and deal with this before we do. In addition, the correct route is for Guy to issue a topic ban (if he thinks that is the right route to go), and then for the person who was topic banned to appeal. Not for Guy to come here first and try and pre-empt such an appeal. Carcharoth (talk) 06:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Some additional points on terminology used by Guy and others: care should be taken not to confuse SOCKPUPPET, MEATPUPPET, CANVASSING, SPAMMING and ADVOCACY. In my view, sustained advocacy is not the same as spamming, and a group of activists should not all be considered meatpuppets of each other (more than just holding the same views is needed). Sockpuppet should only be used in a narrow term here, to refer to the same person editing under different accounts. In addition, if two accounts exhibit the same bannable behaviour, don't ban one as a meatpuppet of the other, just follow the simpler option of banning both for the same reasons. No need to make any connection between them at all. Finally, the term "single-purpose account" (SPA) should not be used pejoratively. The qualifier "disruptive" should be used where needed (and mostly has, with a few slips above), as constructive SPAs do exist and are welcomed, though diversity in editing is also welcomed. Carcharoth (talk) 06:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
    • To TS: my point is that Guy did not need to escalate this to RFAR clarification stage. If people are wikilawyering over it, why does Guy need the backing of the Arbitration Committee? In my opinion, there was no need to make this about any connection or not between two people. If the account is disruptive, address that first. Sometimes trying to list all possible concerns is saying too much and just makes things complicated, and opens the door to the wikilawyering you mention (which may be justified if the additional concerns are tenuous). Just stick to the clear and unambiguous stuff and deal with that first. Trying to make connections with other accounts and agendas is unnecessary distraction. Carcharoth (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• I pile-on concur with the above. Wizardman 06:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages arbitration