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Pseudoscience

I've restored a comment that was in the faq from at least 2004 to about late 2007, when it got removed in a text cleanup. I think it clarifies the scope of the Pseudoscience section in a way that the revised, 2008 wording does not. To whit, "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science." Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Policy?

How can a FAQ on a policy be a policy itself? — Rlevse • Talk • 09:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It was split off the policy page several years ago, and helps to expand upon and clarify some of the issues involved. Pretty much the entire FAQ page can be found in the first revision of WP:NPOV. . Of course, in some ways, the name is a misnomer. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering that too. As Shoemaker points out, WP:NPOV/FAQ was spun off the main WP:NPOV policy. Shortly thereafter, the policy tag was added - apparently based on this discussion, according to the edit summary, but the discussion seems to indicate the FAQ was spun out of the policy because it "these are really essays and "chat", rather than policy". Looks to me to be more along the lines of a guideline or even an essay. Dreadstar † 17:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

There's at least some important policy in there - WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, for instance, is the policy basis behind WP:FRINGE. I'd be inclined to remerge at least parts of the FAQ before downgrading it. The simple fact is that a clear, unambiguous statement like WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience is the oly way to keep certain parts of Misplaced Pages at all sane to edit, such as Intelligent design, Evolution, Homeopathy and so on. Without it as policy, we could pretty much throw out any hope of getting any of those fields looking at all encyclopedic. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A dilemma. As the FAQ was spun off originally from the NPOV Policy one would think the material was significant but not crucial, possibly an important distinction. In which case, the auxiliary material should probably have never been tagged as a policy but left as an essay or at best a guideline. The Civility policy for example has numerous links to material/essays significant to the understanding of the policy but not critical to its explanation. If critical enough to be part of the policy one would assume that it should have been left on the page where it could be easily accessed. If any material is reinserted into the original policy, I would think a fair amount of discussion and a consensus would be necessary to distinguish what is necessary, from what is useful but not critical. (olive (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

Givenm it's BEEN policy for 7 years, I don't think we'd need that much re-evaluation. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

First, the pseudoscience bit (the bit in contention at this time) has not been policy for 7 years, but has been in constant conflict and question, and has been changed many times. Some of the users changing it were senior admins, who thought it was not in accord with WP basic policy. Second, the length of time it's been in could as easily be seen as it's being in need of review, as of it's having consensus. Third, it has been edit warred over, which often means it is not a consensus version, but people gave up. Fourth, the status of the FAQ as policy is in question, as above:

"What's for sure is that 18 KB of chat just doesn't belong in the main policy. FT2 (Talk | email) 18:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)"

So, I don't think there was any consensus to make it policy. We may need to merge/downgrade.

Fifth, the point is whether it is correct. There needs to be a discussion on whether some of its parts are actually NPOV in truth, or merely relics or bits which only some editors feel are correct. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless Martinphi provides some evidence, I don't think he accurately portrays the situation. His firststatement, portrayed more accurately, boils down to "The policy was questioned, and consensus said it should stay". If a policy having ever been challenged means it wasn't a policy, then no Misplaced Pages policy is one. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Somehow, it looks more like edit warring to me . ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's inaccurate. You ignore the lengthy talk page discussion that was ongoing simultaneously. That discussion went on for some time, but eventually died out after some mild constructive criticism of a new suggestion failed to result in any further suggestions. You'll note I was not even involved for much of the last part. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

shoemaker:

1. an FAQ should not be policy. at best it should have guideline status, and anything on the page that should be more than a guideline should instead be moved over to the policy page proper. otherwise we open a tremendous back door where editors can surreptitiously write new policy without the normal review and consent process, and possibly end up with mutually contradictory policy statements. I second Martin's suggestion that it should be downgraded.
2. I think it's high time this entire pseudoscience/fringe issue was reopened and revised. frankly, this supposed 'policy' strikes me more as a political move in ongoing ideological warfare than as useful aid in writing wikipedia articles. the whole thing is predicated on a questionable understanding of the nature of science, and on some blatant misconstruals of the original ArbCom ruling (which itself is underspecified).

--Ludwigs2 06:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, something needs to be done, but let's take our time on it. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The ending of the discussion mentioned above by Shoemaker: "I've changed it in the proposal above, and made some tweaks in the response. See what you think. Any better? Jayen466 21:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)" ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Martin, but I'm getting a strong impression that you really want a major war with me. Maybe this isn't true, but I still think that such feelings means the best thing for me to do is to just disengage, and to make a polite request that you do the same, both of us communicating as little as possible with or about each other. If you would, I'd appreciate if you'd make sure that at least one neutral party's comment is said in any thread after I make a reply before you reply, and I'll do the same for your comments. I do not want to be pulled into a war with you, and so a tacit agreement to this sort of disengagement for the immediate future would be far preferred by me. Thank you. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

War with you? No idea what you mean. You seem to be continually trying to get me banned from Misplaced Pages or sanctioned, etc. etc., but for my part I have only wanted to be left alone. Nor have I done anything warlike toward you at all, although once I responded to an attack by going to AN/I. I find no reason not to respond to you, but if you wish to not respond directly to me that is up to you. At any rate, be assured that I have no warlike intentions to anyone on Misplaced Pages, yourself very much included. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Various arguments about content aside for a moment, it seems fairly obvious to me personally that a FAQ page, which is effectively a policy fork where editors have substantially more leeway than they would ordinarily get on the policy page per se, is not properly categorized as a "policy". Plainly this one slipped through one of the many cracks that the diffuse concept of WP:Consensus quite frequently allows in such a large endeavor as Misplaced Pages. At best, it seems to me, this type of FAQ page is properly categorized as a supplemental guideline based on the policy page from which it is derived, unless adequate consensus can be achieved to the effect that it's not merely a convenience but instead is sufficiently central to the policy to merit the community's attention to maintain it with the same degree of diligence as policy pages in general. (I will intentionally avoid any personal judgement here about how well policy pages are typically maintained, except to say that in my observation more attention is typically paid to the core policy pages than is ordinarily devoted to various other pages.)
..... That said, this set of arguments is fundamentally a content dispute, which has escalated into an attempt to define or redefine the current balance between WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:Reliable sources, and perhaps also other policy pages that might be relevant here. Might I suggest that, if participants in this intense debate here can't hone in on what factors the dispute involves, or to the extent that participants disagree about either WP:WEIGHT, WP:RS and/or other policy issues, that the discussion be moved into a forum where such balances are commonly negotiated? The normal course of resolving such content disputes is WP:RFC, followed if necessary by WP:RFArb, etc.,
..... Maybe the most obvious step for longer term participants in WP:NPOV, of which this page is a direct extension, is to seriously consider "downgrading" this page to guideline status, and leave the content issues such as are being brought up here to local consensus about WEIGHT and RS, and if need be to RFCs and Arbcomm. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think it best to keep it policy (as it has been for the last five years or so) until at least a few issues are settled. For instance, I think Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ#There's no such thing as objectivity as important for understanding the NPOV policy as "Verifiability, not truth" for WP:V. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everything you say, Kenosis, except that we seem to be making some progress here, so give it a chance. I also don't know how it would be brought to ArbCom, as they don't do policy much. The FAQ maybe should be downgraded.... which in itself might solve a problem, as either people would not care quite so much, or else any parts of it moved to NPOV would be given attention by the community. Also, it's easier to say "the guideline doesn't jibe with policy." On the other hand, I'm not sure the issue would get enough attention if it weren't policy, but whatever. But this should not be seen as a content dispute, as it's been brewing for years. We have a couple good suggestions going, I don't see why we should not forge ahead. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Francis Schonken, this policy is essential for understanding aspects of the main NPOV policy, in particular WP:NPOV#Common objections and clarifications which links directly to this rather than providing the answers on the main page. It might clarify things if that section was reorganised to include all essential points from this policy, at which point anything less important could be covered in a guideline, but it's evident from current content disputes that this would be strongly contested and could easily escalate into a complete waste of time. A correction – when this was split from the main page, it was a summary style split into two aspects of the policy, and not a POV fork. . dave souza, talk 08:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Dave, just to clarify, I didn't say "POV fork" but said "effectively a oolicy fork" in the sense you just described it, i.e. a fork devoted to FAQs. If it's to remain policy, it should of course be maintained accordingly by admins and other users familiar with specific aspects of NPOV such as WP:UNDUE, the Arbcom decision on pseudoscience, and other relevant aspects of WP:NPOV. At present, the section on "pseudoscience" appears to me to be consistent with the Arbcom decision, though there are many aspects of the section on "Balancing different views" that presently read like an opinion piece, with direct links to guidelines and even to essay pages. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to misrepresent that, I think we're on the same wavelength here. My feeling is still that it's not so much a fork as an amplification of aspects of the core policy, which have been left rather cryptic by the split showing the questions without the answers. As you say, it's consistent with the Arbcom decision, and the principles in that decision are important. Items 3a and 4a seem relevant to recent discussions. . . dave souza, talk 17:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

FAQ pseudoscience discussion reopened

• Moved from Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#FAQ_pseudoscience_discussion_reopened

For reference, the current intro wording is this:

How are we to write articles about pseudoscientific topics, about which majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?

The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science. Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore may be significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, should explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

The question and answer simply don't fit together. In fact, the question the answer appears to answer is this one: What does NPOV mean in the context of pseudoscientific theories? Then our answer would make sense.

But the question asked is something else. It is "how to write an article on a pseudoscientific topic" (e.g. astrology). In this context, the sentence "Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore may be significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate" simply does not compute. I said at the time that the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on astrology devotes 4 large, densely printed, double-column pages to describing the history of astrological thought, its cultural standing over the centuries, etc., and that it ends with the words "In short, modern Western astrology, though of great interest sociologically and popularly, generally is regarded as devoid of intellectual value." In other words, the EB thought it "proportionate" to devote most of its article on astrology to the description of pseudoscientific thought, and surely that is appropriate in the article devoted to such a topic.

I also thought that when it comes to Ancient astronaut theories and the like, our articles on these theories should not contain lengthy quotes from primary sources such as Erich von Däniken & Co. Instead editors should be encouraged to search out mainstream scientific analyses of these pseudosciences as sociological or religious phenomena, like this source here: Where such a scientist quotes Däniken, we can of course quote what he quotes (E. v. Däniken, quoted by X in Y). But where there is a body of secondary literature, editors should follow that, and not be let loose to quote the primary source bits they like best.

So, the suggested wording was this:

I am working on an article about a pseudoscience. Mainstream scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even deserve serious mention. How am I supposed to write an article about it, and state the mainstream scientific view, if this pseudoscience isn't even discussed by scientists?

If a pseudoscientific theory makes claims related to a field of natural science, for example, and these claims are not even seriously discussed by present-day scholars in that field, the presentation must clearly state that the theory has found no scientific acceptance. Also check if the theory has been discussed by mainstream scholars of history, sociology, religion or psychology. If it has, then scholarly source material from these fields should be used to present the ideas' history, as well as their standing within the scientific community and within society at large.

We could of course keep the existing answer as well, but should change the question preceding it, as indicated above. --Jayen466 12:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I'm inclined to use both your suggested response, and the old one with a new question, yours to emphasize the standard rules on POV-forks, and the old one to make it clear that minority views should not be presented as equally important as the majority ones in main articles. However, what does everyone think about moving both of them into a new section fo the main WP:NPOV page, with a change of questiona nd answer to more standard text? They're the basis for the important guideline WP:FRINGE, so I do think they should have a simple, policy-level statement. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy with moving them into a new section either qith a Q&A or with a 'more standard text'. Doug Weller (talk) 12:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no objections to moving them there. Jayen466 17:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Moving anything onto the main policy page should have a fair amount of community input I would think, especially on this topic.(olive (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC))

That new version is a lot clearer and ties in well with issues of basing articles on reliable secondary sources rather than giving priority to self-descriptions by pseudoscience promoters, so support the change. Not sure if there's much value in keeping the previous version to supplement it. It could be readily phrased as an instruction rather than a question and answer and so made suitable for a move to the main policy page, which would perhaps help to point out that this is a policy. There's validity in the need for consultation before such a move, but it must be accepted that this is policy regardless of which page it appears on. . dave souza, talk 18:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Good work, Jayen466. Reads much better and a lot clearer. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Echoing Jossi, this was well-done, and should be incorporated into policy. It is clear. OrangeMarlin 21:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayen: I'm inclined to be a bit clearer about the issue. for instance, I'd prefer something like this (using the same question as in your second box, above):

An article on a pseudoscience topic, like any article on wikipedia, should strive to present a clear and comprehensible description of the topic's theory, history, and pertinent details. Since pseudoscientific theory often make claims related to established sciences, the article must clearly state that the theory has not found scientific acceptance. This should not, however, become a central or organizing theme in the article; it should be offered simply as a historical and scientific fact. Wherever possible, source material from mainstream scholars of history, sociology, religion or psychology should be used to present the idea's history, and indicate its standing within the scientific community and within society at large. Sources from advocates of the pseudoscience and sources from mainstream scientists engaged in the field should be treated as primary research, with the limitations that entails.

further, if you want to retain the first paragraph as a separate FAQ question, then I'd prefer it to be modified for clarity. something like this, maybe:

What does NPOV mean in the context of pseudoscientific theories?

The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; pseudoscience by definition lacks scientific corroboration. However, pseudoscience may have significant social or historical importance which merits its inclusion in articles. Where pseudoscience is presented in comparison to mainstream scientific views it should be made clear that the pseudoscience view is a minority position with limited standing and acceptance; in no case should it be suggested that the pseudoscience view is superior to , equal to, or even in serious competition with established science. Where pseudoscience views are presented on their own, as in articles about the pseudoscience itself, the article should give them prominence, but must note that the view is not currently considered to be a valid scientific perspective; in no case should the theory be presented in isolation from other more accepted scientific views, or suggest that those other accepted scientific views are false, flawed, or otherwise unacceptable. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

I think these answer both questions fully and appropriately. --Ludwigs2 20:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Both of these make it less clear. Jayen's is much better. OrangeMarlin 21:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

More comments. First, if an article represents a pseudoscience, and it is well known, then yes, the scientific debunking should be the primary, if not exclusive, theme of the article. And I just cannot support the use of "fairly" in anything, since it's so judgmental. OrangeMarlin 21:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Orange (damn, I have an inexplicable urge to call you 'Agent Orange' today ) - the article is supposed to be about a pseudoscience, not 'the debunking of a pseudoscience'. the 'debunking of a pseudoscience' wouldn't even be notable enough for an article without an article about the pseudoscience itself. you're forgetting that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for establishing truth. it's our job to present even pseudoscience in a clear, neutral, and fair manner. and no, I do not think wikipedia wants to establish a policy that says wikipedia reserves the right to be brutally unfair to any topic it thinks is stupid. that's just wrong, on so many levels. --Ludwigs2 21:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the POV which has caused so much damage to the NPOV status of articles on fringe topics. It is this which needs to be specifically addressed and put to rest in a final way per policy. It is this POV which the former FAQ gave some tenuous support, by making the scientific view ipso facto the majority. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Martin, the scientific view is not a majority view. It is the verified and supported view. If Misplaced Pages were to work using a majority view, the UFO's exist and make crop circles. Science lacks a POV, it simply is a methodology to ascertain the behavior of the natural world. It can't think. It can't opine. Because humans, who are fundamentally flawed in being that rational, run science, a whole system was created to publish articles, to review them, and to bring them to the forefront fore discussion. Over time these theories are enhanced and developed until they are fundamental facts, like Evolution or Gravity. Psychics or paranormal are both rejected because they cannot be tested scientifically or when tested scientifically were found to be lacking. So, your POV and Ludwig's suggestions actually create a POV, instead of keeping it NPOV. OrangeMarlin 21:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Orange, this doesn't quite track. setting aside things that I would heartily love to debate but are out of scope (e.g.: of course science has a POV - what do you think a methodology is based on, if not a set of pre-binding assumptions?), let me make a few necessary things clear:

1. wikipedia is not here to defend science or truth. wikipedia is here to present human knowledge, and this means all human knowledge, even where it's wrong knowledge. pseudoscience topics are valid field of human knowledge in their own right, and should be presented as such.
2. NPOV does not mean 'lacking a POV' on wikipeida; it means fairly representing all significant POVs. so even if science did lack POV (which isn't true) that would be completely irrelevant. we're not looking for sources that present some 'neutral truth', ever; we're looking for sources that present their own POV, so that we can balance those fairly with other sources.
3. you are consistently oblivious to context, and that puts a tremendous strain on the credibility of your arguments. if you can't distinguish the different contexts in which a fringe topic might appear, how could you possibly have any insights in to the contextual nuances that go into establishing neutrality?

--Ludwigs2 22:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Science is a POV, and it is not Misplaced Pages's job to present information in a way which favors any POV. "Even if science did lack POV (which isn't true) that would be completely irrelevant...we're looking for sources that present their own POV" and we present all the POVs in proportion to their prominence. I happen to believe science is the only way of gaining knowledge, but that doesn't matter. Your take on psychic stuff is uninformed, but it doesn't matter either: Misplaced Pages is still not in the business of taking sides. Orange, your POV has been discussed and rejected by the Misplaced Pages community. There is no point engaging you on it. Just don't edit war over it. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? Where has MY POV been rejected. In fact, it's been supported more times than not. Give me a fucking break. You just can't make broad pronouncements and get away with it. Oh that's right, you used your pseudoscientific psychic powers to divine what I know and don't know. I keep forgetting how much smarter you are than I. OrangeMarlin 03:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's be civil here, please. Dreadstar † 03:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Good work, you guys. For history's sake, I am against any policy which makes the scientific view ipso facto the majority view. This is used on articles to argue that within articles on fringe subjects the scientific view has the greatest WEIGHT, and thus should be favored in terms of a) space and b) wording. In other words, it takes over the subject of the article and tends to be asserted as fact or presented with wording which gives a very heavy bias.

I support Jayen's drafts and I think that Ludwig's drafts are very good expansions on it and make the issue clearer. I think we need to make sure the final draft makes clear that per WEIGHT the scientific opinion is not going to take over the entire article, per Ludwigs.

Thus the previous version has to go. It is not in accord with the NPOV principle.

I think we need to make it clear that the criticism should come either 1) from critics outside the field, in which case it should be Attributed. Or 2) should come from sources within the field (eg Astronomy) in which case it can be presented as the majority opinion, unless there is good reason to attribute-- for example, if the person writing is a noted critic of pseudoscience in general or a member of CSICOP.

We also need to note, per dave souza above, that pseudoscience sources are perfectly acceptable for describing the positions of fringe ideas. I don't know what he's really getting at, but if he thinks WP should use the secondary sources in order to take their point of view, instead of a neutral POV, then that is an indication that we need to make things clear. When he says "basing articles," it seems as if he would describe a fringe POV from the perspective of a mainstream source, thus cutting out the fringe POV's ability to speak for itself. That's unacceptable. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This makes sense, finally. In a simplistic parallel. If in the fine arts I am writing an article on Rauschenberg's goat sculpture Monogram which let's say many critics would say is not art, then I can't write an article about Rauschenberg's goat and have most of the article be about how this is not mainstream art. The article is about the goat and no matter my view on it, and although certainly, the article must contain material on the critics' views of the goat negative and positive, the "weight" of the article must be about the topic (or subject) of the article, that goat. That's encyclopedic...(olive (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC))

Exactly. We need to make that clear, and also that sources within the fringe POV are good -often best- for explaining that POV.

You can use fringe and pseudoscientific sources to describe beliefs, but you cannot use them to describe reality. Articles on, for example time cube, remote viewing or a flat earth need to accurately describe the ideas and their history, but need to also give a clear and thorough account of their relation to reality. It would be unacceptable, for example, to write an entire article on ideas about the flat earth without balancing the claims of advocates with the facts from reliable sources. This also needs to be done throughout much of the text, so that the reader can be given a clear idea about each claim. However, such an account of the relation between claims and reality should not be the sole purpose of the article, since the history and sociology of such ideas need to be covered as well. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You're basically right, but I believe you err in your use of the word "reality." We don't do reality here on WP, but sources. Yes, on all controversial subjects we need to describe both sides of any controversy, and who says what. Yet, we should never, ever contrast POV X with Reality.

Controversy should have weight relative to its prominence in the sources. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The sources must be reliable sources, and undue weight must not be given to minority views amongst expert opinion on the subject. Where the subject is claimed to be science, that claim has to be shown in relation to majority expert scientific opinion and the scientific consensus on the subject. Of course that doesn't prevent due weight being given, for example, to majority expert theological views of faith based subjects. . . dave souza, talk 08:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As Dave observes, there is often a close interaction between WP:WEIGHT and WP:RS. When discussing majority and minority points of view, it needs to be done keeping in mind the reliable sources analysis. If a pursuit such as, say parapsychology or "psychic", such as is at issue here, is asserted by certain of its advocates to be a "science", the majority view of the scientific community must be given its due weight w.r.t. that assertion and the minority view its respective due weight, using also a reliable-sources assessment when making the "due weight" assessment. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No consideration versus rejection

I see a WP:NOR problem with these:

...these claims are not even seriously discussed by present-day scholars in that field, the presentation must clearly state that the theory has found no scientific acceptance. (Jayen)

...Since pseudoscientific theory often make claims related to established sciences, the article must clearly state that the theory has not found scientific acceptance. (Ludwigs)

These can be read as: Lacking serious/reliable sources you may/should jump to the conclusion that the scientific/reliable sources reject the novel/pseudoscientific theory. Inferring verifiability from a *lack* of reliable sources? That would be a first...

In that case I'd prefer to stay with the present formulation, which is a bit more woolly but doesn't seem to have this NOR related issue. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Very good point. In practice, it is almost always the case that this "non acceptance" will be stated in the fringe or mainstream sources (and either are RS for such a statement), and if it isn't stated anywhere that it has been "not accepted" (or rejected), then it is OR just like you say.... but it is non-controversial almost always. And perhaps we should make it clear that "not accepted," or "not considered" is not the same as "rejected." FRINGE already does that, but it could be stated here also. For example, saying that the concept of Orgone energy is not accepted by the scientific community isn't going to get tagged usually as it's self evident. Saying that Psi (parapsychology) isn't accepted by mainstream science will not raise any eyebrows. Saying either has been rejected is contentious, however, and therefore requires sources combined with attribution. That's what you're saying, and the statements above are in harmony with that principle. Maybe we just need to add a sentence? From FRINGE:

However, a lack of consideration or acceptance does not necessarily imply rejection either; ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or labeled with pejoratives such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a good point, but a lack of credible scientific sources would mean that the subject is not notable as science, and should not be presented as having any scientific credibility. Thus a protoscience such as the phrenology of the 1820s became recognised as a pseudoscience, and it might be difficult to find any modern mainstream sources giving it serious consideration. A more nuanced situation arises where claims are still made for scientific credibility but no evidence has been published in recognised scientific journals, or the little attention it has been given by mainstream science has found it wanting. That still meets the current WP definition that "Pseudoscience is defined as a body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific or made to appear scientific, but does not adhere to the scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status." In such cases care has to be taken to ensure that a lack of modern attention is not presented as giving any credibility, or allowed to give undue weight to claims made by proponents. . . dave souza, talk 08:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Where is the WP definition that anything which has not received publication in mainstream scientific journals, but claims to be science, is pseudoscience? Oh, well, it's the "otherwise lacks scientific status" bit, I see. Lol. Well, that makes most research, published in little specialist journals, pseudoscience. Not only has it not gained overall "status," it never will because it's only of interest to a sub-sub-discipline which only two or three people in the world know much about. Don't cite WP articles for accurate understanding for use in making overall policy. That last bit should just be taken out. I agreed completely with this diff. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Martin, I don't know what to say about the comment above except that it seems to demonstrate pretty severe misunderstanding of how science works. First, a journal can be "specialist" without being not mainstream. Specialist journals are frequently cited by other journals in other areas. And those aren't the only issues. Reputable journals of all types go through rigorous peer-review by experts in the fields. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, well if that's what he's getting at then there is no problem. I thought he was saying something different, hinging on the word "recognized." ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps the OR problem Francis raises could be solved as follows:

I am working on an article about a pseudoscience. Mainstream scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even deserve serious mention. How am I supposed to write an article about it, and state the mainstream scientific view, if this pseudoscience isn't even discussed by scientists?

Check if the theory is notable enough to have been discussed by mainstream scholars of history, sociology, religion or psychology. If it has, then source material from these fields should be used to present the ideas' history, as well as their standing within the scientific community and within society at large. Also check for press sources. If the pseudoscientific opinion has not been discussed by scholars of any field, and there are no other reliable third-party sources discussing it, then Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it.

Any good? :-) Jayen466 17:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Except there are clearly notable pseudosciences that scientists won't even bother thinking about. Consider for example EVP which is so thoroughly rejected that it is very hard to find any scientists even saying "yeah, that's crap". But EVP is clearly notable with many mainstream media sources discussing the idea especially when it comes up in fictional contexts (as it has in many recent movies and television shows). JoshuaZ (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Appropriate sources – "4a) Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources require that information included in an article have been published in a reliable source which is identified and potentially available to the reader. What constitutes a reliable source varies with the topic of the article, but in the case of a scientific theory, there is a clear expectation that the sources for the theory itself are reputable textbooks or peer-reviewed journals. Scientific theories promulgated outside these media are not properly verifiable as scientific theories and should not be represented as such." – feel free to summarise. . . dave souza, talk 18:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it, doesn't this arbitration decision more or less remove the OR concern that Francis raised? Jayen466 04:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not an expert on EVP, but I'm pretty sure there are scholars of psychology, sociology etc. who find this sort of thing an interesting topic for research, especially if it's prominent in contemporary entertainment media. , , , . The thing is, if no one has studied it, not even out of psychological or sociological interest, if the press don't mention it, and not even the Skeptics have a page on it somewhere, then we don't need to have a page on it either. Jayen466 15:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem with Jayen's draft above is that, unlike the quote above, it doesn't say "reliable source varies with the topic of the article." It is clear that a RS for the content of a fringe idea will be the proponents of the fringe idea. I really liked Ludwigs expanded version, because it made some of these things clearer. Basically, Jayen's draft may be easier to put in the policy, yet it doesn't cover a lot of things. Still, as long as it can't be used against policy, it might be alright. I do see that potential though "this isn't a mainstream source which says what fringe people believe, so we can't use it." You might not get the history in a mainstream source at all. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Since a rewrite could be included in the mother policy, NOPV, and since the question and answer format is used very little there, I have transcribed as a statement rather than a question: This is a combination of the work and words of multiple editors, and hope they don't mind my using their words in this draft.(olive (talk) 04:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC))

In an article on a science, where pseudoscience is presented in relation to mainstream, scientific views, the sources must be reliable sources and undue weight must not be given to minority views in relation to expert opinions on the subject. If the subject is claimed to be science, that claim must be shown in relation to majority, expert, scientific consensus on the subject.

In an article where the pseudoscience itself is the subject of the article, material concerning the pseudoscience should be given prominence, but the pseudoscience by definition should not be considered a mainstream scientific view, and its relationship relative to more accepted scientific or skeptical viewpoints should be described.

Since pseudosciences often have not been considered by mainstream science, mainstream sources on them may be difficult to find. If available, notable sources on the subject by expert scholars in fields such as history, sociology, religion, psychology may be used as historical and or philosophical perspectives to show the relationship of the pseudoscience within the scientific community and society at large. If reliable sources cannot be found on these matters, less reliable sources may be used. However, in each case careful attention should be paid to attribution, so that the reader will have opportunity to evaluate the reliability of the claims. If the pseudoscientific opinion is not notable, then Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it.

I find Olive's suggestion confusing, paticularly the third paragraph. Also, insisting on attribution could result in situations where you see something like "The Organisation of Psudoscientific Scholars say that there is strong evidence that UtterNonsense exists. Frederick Farrar disagrees, and says that UtterNonsense is not possible under the laws of science." - where Frederick Farrar is representing the majority, scientific view, and the Organization of Pseudoscientific Scholars has only a dozen members. Attribution could easily directly violate undue weight. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Per the discussion above, Actually, I believe it should be possible to find at least some scientific discussion of the paredolia-like ways that people delude themselves into thinking that EVPs occur on a certain bit of tape. It might be necessary to go back to its earlier form, playing records backwards to find supposed "secret messages", but there's almost surely some commentary out there. And, given parity of sources, the pro-EVP sources are pretty weak, so we need not counter with articles in top-tier journals. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Shoemaker are you on the wrong page, perhaps? I put together the draft above as noted, based on the several drafts and ideas by multiple editors. I am in the dark or at least twilight on why you have introduced EVP into this discussion on a NPOV/FAQ and NPOV policy.(olive (talk) 03:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

The first and second paragraphs discuss undo weight in both articles whose topics are science and pseudoscience.(olive (talk) 03:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

EVP was used as an example a little bit above. I just threw in the comment down here as an aside. I'll edit it a little to make that clear. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Olive, where do you get the idea that we should be using "less reliable sources"? If no reliable third party sources show that it's science, then we don't present it as science. . dave souza, talk 11:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Attribution violates undue weight? Not if the scientific source is any good, and the reader not a total idiot. Rather, it strengthens it. Anyone else think that attribution is likely to mislead a reader? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there's nothing to prevent total idiots from reading and misunderstanding anything in our articles which is in any way obscure, and some seem to think that fringe or pseudoscientific organisations should be shown as though they match mainstream organisations with titles which are not in common usage by the general public. WP:NPOV#Article structure, Undue weight "the article should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view" and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Giving "equal validity" apply. . dave souza, talk 11:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It's one of those things where I've seen it done - the majority side is carefully attributed to individual scientists, making it look like there's just a few scientists that hold those views. There's a WP:FRINGE section on Particular attribution which, while it could be done a lot better, does point out a genuine problem: That attribution can be used to imply that widely-held beliefs are only held by a tiny minority, or, by using the names of tiny fringe organisations, you can make fringe theories appear to be much more widely-held. Both are problematic. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that as long as there's confusion, the writing is still too complex. If we can't understand it, either will a new editor looking for guidance.To explain, this rewrite includes work from Jayen, dave souza, Ludwigs, and Martinphi. I tacked it together.

The reference you make, Dave, to "less reliable sources" is not for science but pseudoscience, and I think attribution implies verifiability. That should be clear if not it should be rewritten.

The third paragraph is saying basically: In the case of a pseudoscience where mainstream sources are difficult to find the editor may use : a notable source by expert scholars to explain historical and philosophical perspective, if necessary a less reliable source well attributed (verifiable), and if not notable the pseudoscience should not be included in Misplaced Pages.

Doesn't the first paragraph take care of problems with presenting a minority view as if its a majority view, and in the second paragraph as well where it says pseudoscience should not be considered a mainstream scientific view and its relationships to more accepted scientific viewpoints described?(olive (talk) 20:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

WP:V already takes care of this. The problem I’ve seen is where one or two mainstream scientists have made a comment about a pseudo or fringe science, and that singular comment is presented as being the view of the entire scientific community, while there’s no WP:V source that says the entire scientific community shares that view. Indeed, it has been used in situations where members of the scientific community have not all agreed that something is pseudoscience – a few believe something possible, yet those holding the minority opinion are completely disenfranchised. If only a limited number of the mainstream scientific community have commented on something, then that should be made clear... but the small number of actual comments should not be made to look like it’s a view held by the entire mainstream scientific community. Rare is the occasion where the mainstream scientific community agrees on anything. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; so while the majority or even all members of the scientific community may agree that something is impossible, or stupid, or pseudo or fringe, if it is not Verifiable, then it is not something that can or should be included in Misplaced Pages. If it is made so that you can do synthesis or original research for pseudoscience and fringe topics, then why not every other subject? It’s a slippery slope and it is misleading to our readers. We need to maintain complete neutrality and verifiability across the board in a predictably consistent manner. Making an exception for pseudo/fringe articles doesn’t do that. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Practical considerations

The approach remains rather theoretical/philosophical – which maybe isn't too bad while we want it to cover a lot of aspects. Nonetheless contributors might want to find more practical recommendations. Here are some ideas, not yet clear-cut policy or guideline text, but let's explore whether such approach might add more practicality:

1. Does the theory, approach or ideas we want to describe in a Misplaced Pages article make scientific claims or assumptions?
   • Scientific claims (in this sense) may follow from several indicators: the person proposing the approach may claim to be a scientist or professor; the terminology to describe the ideas may be hooked in a scientific discourse; the theory may be published in a scientific journal (Nature, The Lancet,...); The proposed claims may be discussed by the scientific community;
   • If the described theory, approach, ideas, claims, don't carry *any* scientific claims, no mention of "science" nor "pseudoscience" need to be made in the Misplaced Pages article describing them;
   • If there are scientific claims, then,
     • The scientific community may reject the novel theory/approach/ideas/claims virtually unanimously: then it wouldn't be too difficult finding reliable sources to that effect: use them to describe the scientific approach, on the same page as the description of the novel theory/approach/ideas/claims, in order to acquire a NPOV.
     • The scientific community may embrace the novel theory (without necessarily approving): then it would not be too difficult to find sources describing the novel theory as a scientific theory: use the available sources to describe and qualify the novel theory (without leaving out possible reserves scientists my have per the reliable sources).
     • The scientific community may be ambiguous, some approving, some rejecting: anyway, again reliable sources are available to describe these approaches, and should be used in the Misplaced Pages article;
     • The scientific community at large may remain moot on the point: attention should be given not to describe the novel theory as if it were something the scientific community is involved in: depending on circumstances e.g. the Misplaced Pages article could indicate that the theorist proposing the new ideas is a science fiction author, that the expression "speed of light" as used by the theorist is not 299,792,458 metres per second (take care not to suggest the contrary e.g. by using wikilinks "speed of light" in that case). Sometimes the "broader picture" should be given, summarizing conventional scientific approaches on the subject (take care not revert to original research, by adding something like "...therefore the is wrong" if no reliable source states thus - let the reader come to his/her own conclusion).
2. "In universe" aspects: some novel approaches/theories/... may carry a distinct artistic (or otherwise) in-universe component, e.g. ’pataphysics - in which case WP:INUNIVERSE should be observed in writing an article about such approaches/theories.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

A general rule might be "If insufficient sources exist to discuss the scientific community's response to a fringe theory, which claims to be scientific or makes claims obviously related to a scientific field, then the theory should not be on Misplaced Pages. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Too narrow, imho: Misplaced Pages's "reliable source" concept is broader than "scientific sources" (it might be useful to refer to the rejected WP:SPOV here). Scientific claims treated only in non-scientific reliable sources may have a place in Misplaced Pages. Whether they would have in a separate article is not the issue here (I mean, in the context of the NPOV policy). --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I would think, this rule would be so open to interpretation and other difficulties as to be impossible to handle in any contentious environment:

What constitutes insufficient sources could be debated.

Science does not sufficiently deal with fringe, if at all, by definition ... fringe to what.... fringe to science. Since peer-reviewed science becomes by definition the mainstream, and what makes something mainstream could be, at the least, peer-review, a relatively closed loop is created that would not include notable, albeit, not mainstream science topics - fringe to science topics.

In an article on a so called fringe science or a pseudoscience, references to science can and should be made as long as the pseudoscience is not shown to incorrectly be mainstream, since the terms fringe science and pseudoscience refer in part to a relationship the topic has to science, however slight that might be. In an article, material might be included to show the topic's non-association to science, the debunking of the pseudoscience in relation to science, as long as it is appropriately weighted, and attributed. All of this is possible in a well sourced, well written complete article but would be disallowed by the above suggestion, seems to me.(olive (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC))

Since we need attibution to show that it's science, if such verification is unavailable then we don't show it as science, but as a non-science social phenomenon. Where it's been subject to scientific testing which has not shown any validity for the claims, then we state just that. Since proponents of such claims commonly claim to have made tests, reports of scientific tests have to be published in reputable peer-reviewed journals. Reports in fringe journals or self-published claims by proponents have to be treated as primary sources. . dave souza, talk 17:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's in a p-r journal doesn't mean it isn't WP:PRIMARY. We can report proponent's claims about their tests. Also, above people were saying that attribution was a factor detracting from its believability.

The problem around here is that people often don't quite get that we aren't out to present the truth. We're just presenting sources, and attributing. So all this evaluation that people are doing-- we don't have to do that. We don't have to evaluate the truth of a claim, we only have to let the reader know who the claimant is. We have to present sources in accordance with their prominence, not their truth. If we use the sources right, we can write a good article on any topic without ever evaluating for ourselves who is right and who is wrong. Attribution kind of takes truth off our hands.

Prominence not truth: that is why RS and WEIGHT are relative to the article, not to some general body of humanity or intellectuality. Otherwise you could never rank which source is most prominent for the article. In a fringe area, you would find that the most prominent sources are the fringe ones. The most prominent sources stating the scientific or mainstream scientific opinion of the fringe topic will be from mainstream sources. The most prominent sources stating the fringe opinion of the mainstream will be fringe sources. The most prominent sources stating the relationship of the fringe claim to the mainstream will be both from fringe and mainstream sources, and attribution will be particularly important: don't like that? No, we aren't here to tell the reader what the relationship is, we're out to report what people say.

Yes, that means if the reader can't tell a good source from a bad one, the reader will be twisting in the wind of truth and falsehood. That isn't our concern. We aren't here to tell the reader what to believe.

The phrase "we...show it as" in the post above: that's utterly wrong. We aren't here to show anything as anything. If that is how people are thinking about policy, then something very wrong is going on.

People don't get the italicized text here:

"Misplaced Pages articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources. Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context."

Note that you can always get RS on fringe topics: the publications of proponents are the fully RS sources which you use.

For what they believe. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

No, self-published sources are by definition generally unreliable, and can only be used in specific exceptional circumstances - most fringe topics would fail that (e.g. per #3 "unduly self-serving") when no other sources apart from the self-published ones exist. But that is all WP:V matter, not something that needs to be rehashed for the purposes of the WP:NPOV policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You forget the fringe exception . That exception seems to have consensus because the alternative is to adjust NOTABILITY to exclude more, as Shoemaker suggests in a limited way above. Whatever, but if we're talking about fringe, the sources have the fringe exception. And of course in most fringe areas you can find plenty of fringe proponent sources from third party publishers. We should probably make this exception even more clear, I guess. The reason for it is that you sometimes can't describe a fringe idea without having recourse to such texts- yet it's still notable. In FRINGE it's phrased to favor non-RS criticism, but the corollary is that fringe topics are also sourced to fringe sources, including self-published ones. This also constitutes an exception to WP:SELFQUEST 2, 3, 4, and 7. This is the practice. If anyone wants to tighten up NOTABILITY, we've got a lot of articles to delete. I'll support it. There is of course disagreement on this, but the exception is commonly accepted, and necessary, since in many fringe areas you just don't have RS. You have one or two RS which give it notability, but 90% of the description only exists on sites or self-published texts. The alternative to using self published sources is thus to not allow fringe proponents to speak at all. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll notice the dodges on the Time cube article. It's about the site, not the ideas (thus I guess they could use the site as a source but for SELFQUEST), but they quote the website without citation. This is where you get if you don't allow fringe sources to speak for themselves on articles about themselves. Another example is the EVP article, where it has been argued that you can't use sources like the AA-EVP website. The problem is that information is moving to the web, first, and second fringe ideas are often only described fully in proponent sources. You can't get a full picture of a lot of these things without using their self-pub sources. Perhaps we need to tighten NOTABILITY to say that unless there are enough mainstream sources for a full and comprehensive article, and some of the sources are by proponents, you can't have an article. Proponents have to be able to speak for themselves or else WP is biased and not very useful. This may not be easy to argue under current rules, but I think it would fly in a full-blown policy discussion. So if anyone wants to argue that the fringe exception as I described is against policy, we need to have that discussion. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a misunderstanding of he Fringe policy,a s far as Ican tell. I believe you're talking about Parity of sources, which says that if the fringe claim's sources are weak, the criticism can be taken from similarly weak sources. That doesn't mean, though, that all the sources in an article can be self-published internet sources. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say they could be- you need at least the requirement of NOTABILITY. But that is such a low requirement that if you are going to fully describe a fringe idea, you are going to be using such sources: this is used as a source here. You just said "all the sources." By standard policy, you don't use any such sources. That's why I'm saying there is a commonly accepted fringe exception. It should be made more clear as now any wiki lawyer can do as he pleases. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, BTW, the logical corollary of WP:PARITY is that if the fringe sources are pretty good, and the skeptical sources are worse, you wouldn't use the skeptical sources. It assumes the fringe sources are always bad, or can be made out to be bad. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I can see why one might want to quote primary fringe sources -- articles on things like the Time cube or the moon landing hoax accusations are sometimes interesting and entertaining to read -- and the primary source may be more precise and detailed (or entertaining) than whatever coverage there has been in reliable sources. But I still feel queasy about letting editors loose on Daniken's collected works, or those of David Icke or of an EVP proponent, to pick their quotes as they will; I'd much rather restrict sources for such notable fringe topics to bona fide scholarly treatments (especially since such treatments often do exist, even on wacky stuff like EVP, and are unfortunately frequently ignored by us) ... or at least reports in reputable newspapers. The argument that the secondary sources may have got it wrong and Misplaced Pages has to rely on editors to select primary source quotes in order "to put things right" is not a very palatable thing to write into policy. Perhaps I'm lacking humour or need to lighten up a little. Jayen466 05:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Well no, we could do as you say... but it requires re-writing NOTABILITY in some manner where we'd always have enough mainstream sources to round out the article. Do you want a Misplaced Pages where fringe proponents don't get to speak for themselves at all? That might be fine. You are also going against the principle of PARITY. Because a lot of the criticism sources are very promotional- Quackwatch, skepdic.com, etc. The deal with parity is you have bad fringe sources and bad skeptical sources, but a loose NOTABILITY policy. I have always thought that the source was relative to the claim, just like RS says. So for example, I'm quite happy to have people sourcing to skepdic or quackwatch or whatever for a skeptical opinion. But these sources are not RS- quackwatch was even noted as "partisan." A "partisan" source promoting a particular POV and run by a single person is hardly RS, as the heading says. Same with Skepdic. However, I use these sources for critical POV, and I also use the Parapsychological Association for the parapsychological POV and aaevp.com for the evoip POV, as examples. I usually write in Parapsychology related articles, which have many, many many peer-reviewed sources. The critical sources are often not peer reviewed, and where they are RS, they are often out-dated. here you have full justification for writing such articles with only scholarly criticism, and leaving out skepdic.com altogether. I haven't insisted on it. Perhaps I should. I warm to your idea, but I do think letting fringe sources speak for themselves is necessary to round out the less talked-about fringe articles we have now. Should we delete them? How should we tell when they're notable enough? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• It seems once more, apathy has overtaken this discussion. But we still have a text version in the policy that we pretty much agreed at the time does not really make much sense. Shall we have another go? Jayen466 22:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Pathological science like Pseudoscience?

Maybe WP:PSCI is also valid for Pathological science, Junk science and their kin listed under Voodoo science? Said: Rursus (☻) 17:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Policy?

This should not be a policy. WP:NPOV contains the actionable rule, and the examples here have broad consensus but are community interpretations of the NPOV policy. So, this should be labelled as what it is: a guideline. An official guideline, but nonetheless, a guideline. Mangojuice 18:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's been reaffirmed as policy several times, and has been policy since NPOV itself was, so, eh... Frankly, Policy and guideline are regularly misapplied anyway. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:POV pushing vs. describing a minority view neutrally

I added to the FAQ that it is not necessary to remove any information from an article which "advances the POV" of the minority, as long as we state emphatically that the viewpoint being advanced is in the minority.

Is this a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow? I think it's in accordance with recent rulings by the ArbCom.

• "It is inappropriate to remove blocks of well-referenced information which is germane to the subject from articles on the grounds that the information advances a point of view. Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy contemplates inclusion of all significant points of view."

I think this distinguishes between:

1. including a point of view (but not advocating it or "pushing for it") - which is permitted; and,
2. using an article page for POV pushing - which is not permitted

The essential difference is that Misplaced Pages:POV pushing declares one viewpoint to be right and/or another viewpoint to be wrong, while neutral editing merely says what a viewpoint is and why its adherents believe it.

In other words, we cannot say X is true. But we can say A believes X because of Y. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

As phrased, I think it was a bit likely to only cause more problems: Remember that there's also weight issues: Including huge amounts of information on a tiny minority position in a mainstream article, for instance, gives the impression that the minority view is more significant than it is, even if you say "According to XYZologists" regularly. And, of course, you then get quibbling over well-referenced and the like that can cause problems themselves, plus appeals to popularity and cherry picking, which can skew an article despite containing well-referenced material. And, of course, with cherry picking and synthesising, an article or section can be "well-referenced", but still be nothing but original research.

The intent behind your edit was good, but it'd probably cause more problems than it solves. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but I didn't mean mainstream articles. I had in mind only articles that are about a controversy (i.e., more than one side exists) or specifically about a view held by a tiny minority. Don't we have articles about conspiracy theories (like NASA has a secret lab somewhere in the desert with space aliens and flying saucers)?

I'm also not advocating original research - at least not on the part of us ordinary contributors. I am saying that published research that contradicts the mainstream should not be Misplaced Pages:censored merely because it disagrees with the mainstream. That would amount to an endorsement of the mainstream as Misplaced Pages:truth. I only had in mind cases where someone added an idea and/or its justification to an article about a politician, historian, scientist or engineer, but which was deleted with an edit comment like "rv POV".

We need a way to distinguish between contributor POV ("Let's put this in because *I* believe it") and the viewpoints of published authors. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

We do distinguish between genuinely significant alernative views published in reliable sources, and views which are fringe where their inclusion in an article is inappropriate as giving undue weight to an extreme minority view. In articles devoted to these fringe views, we take care to give due weight to mainstream views of the fringe view. . dave souza, talk 17:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Aye, evvewn in dedicated articles, it can sometimes be necessary to cut a lot of things about a fringe theory, because, for instance, it's written like a advertisement and the advocacy v. content ratio is low. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, of course, in these dedicated articles we must base them on verifiable third party reliable sources, using reliable secondary sources to avoid original research, and not just present advocacy from primary sources. . dave souza, talk 23:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Which is one of the problems with the new section: it presents as without exception something with dozens of exceptions. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Coming in very late just to wonder where WP:Undue comes into this (I think it does). dougweller (talk) 09:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed change to policy on ambiguous words in religious articles

Template:RFCpolicy

The current article on the use of ambiguous words in religious articles does not reflect consensus and requires revision —FimusTauri (via posting script) 16:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussions about using the word myth(ology) with respect to religious stories have been conducted over numerous articles and over a number of years. Some of you will know me from exactly that discussion on Noah’s Ark. I have also raised this issue more recently at the Village pump, but feel it necessary to widen the discussion as the ‘official policy’ on this matter has been abused.

The official Misplaced Pages policy Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ #Religion includes a section that reads

Regarding terminology: Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. As an encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader. Conversely, editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings. Details about some particular terms can be found at WP:WTA.

Readers may be surprised to learn that this section is a relatively recent addition to “official” policy and that this version was written by someone who strongly advocates using the word “myth” to describe religious stories. They may also be surprised to learn that the relevant section in the linked article on “Words to avoid” was written by this same editor. I urge anyone who has not read this section to take a look – it is several paragraphs dedicated to explaining exactly why you ’’should’’ use the term myth and nothing at all about avoiding it.

Neither article was amended with consensus or discussion – the editor simply added his point of view and now resists any attempts to alter them. This alone is reason enough to require that this section of policy is reviewed and a proper consensus achieved.

There are other reasons for examining this policy. As it is currently stated, it is open to abuse by editors who have an agenda (conscious or otherwise) to label ‘’all’’ religious articles as “myth”. This has already happened in the article Christian mythology, where the section on “Important examples of Christian mythology” begins with a list that is so sweeping as to encompass ‘’every’’ story in the Bible. Whilst some might believe that this is ‘accurate’, and no doubt can find scholarly opinion that agrees, it is certainly not the majority scholarly view.

There is no doubt that it is appropriate to label some religious stories as ‘myth’ – few would argue with this label when applied to most of the creation accounts, for example – but it is clear that some editors have extended this use far beyond the intentions of the scholars they frequently cite. It is ‘’not’’ acceptable to conclude that, because ‘’some’’ religious stories are widely labelled as myth, we can therefore label ‘’all’’ religious stories as myth.

There are two arguments frequently raised by those who favour the use of this word. Firstly, they argue that it is the term used in ‘scholarly’ literature and is therefore appropriate (and we would be violating WP:NOTCENSORED by avoiding it). They are also – quite correctly – able to supply numerous references in support of this argument. There is no doubt in my mind that there are a large number of scholars who will use the term ‘myth’ in reference to religious stories. However, this ignores the fact that there are many scholars who avoid using the term. This is where the requirements for verifiability actually fail us – whilst it may be possible to cite many references that avoid the term, it is almost impossible to find any that explicitly state that they are doing so. Hence, we have the situation where a point of view is given pre-eminance simply because it is impossible to verify an omission. That said, there are many scholars who may be cited, but which are rejected as ‘invalid’ because they have a point of view to push. Is it not the case that Misplaced Pages is all about presenting all sides of the argument? Of course a religious writer has a point of view; so does a secular one. To ignore religious writers because they are “biased” is a clear violation of WP:NPOV.

The second argument used by those in favour of using the word is that those who oppose it do not understand its meaning. I have regularly come across the statement that ‘in scholarly use, myth does not imply falsehood’ or some such. This argument, along with a re-stating of that written in the “words to avoid” article mentioned above, is a specious one, invented to cloud the issue. The definition of the word does not affect any of what I have written above, but it is of great importance to some issues below.

The editor is advised in “words to avoid” to “be careful to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally”. This is simply nonsense. The ‘’reader’’ will take whatever inference they feel is applicable to the word. Or do we expect the reader to be familiar with Misplaced Pages guidelines? If the reader understands the word myth to mean a ‘made-up’ story, then that reader will assume that meaning regardless of the editor’s intentions.

Those who favour the widespread use of the word ‘myth’ within religious articles would have us believe that the general readership of Misplaced Pages are academics who are well aware that the encyclopaedic use of the word should not make any implication as to the veracity of the story. This is nonsense. Misplaced Pages is read by millions around the world for as many different reasons. Imagine a school child whose homework is to look up the history of Jesus. Misplaced Pages will appear high on any search engine. If that child looks at the Christian mythology page his homework is likely to read “The story of Jesus is made up. The end.”

Some editors have attempted to get round this by using ‘infoboxes’. To me, any word that needs to be explained should be classified as jargon and therefore should be avoided. Attempts to explain the word are everywhere in religious articles on Misplaced Pages. This barrage of explanation is proof in itself that the word will be received ambiguously.

If the term may be misunderstood then it should be avoided, or used only where the context gives clear indication of the intended meaning.

I am not advocating that we should completely avoid using the word ‘myth(ology)’ in religious articles – it clearly has a place. Instead, I feel that the policy should be to use it with great care. This applies to all words with more than one meaning. Therefore, my proposal for the policy guideline, to replace the paragraph quoted at the top of this page, is:

Regarding terminology There are many words that have different meanings that are dependent upon their context. For example, fundamentalism and myth. These words should not be avoided in cases where there is little dispute over their application, for example in “Creation myth”. However, if there is a reasonable probability that a reader may misunderstand the use of a word, it should be used with great care, or an acceptable alternative be found instead. Avoid using such terms in the lead; if they must be used at all, place them in an appropriate section, where context will inform the reader of the desired meaning.--FimusTauri (talk) 16:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Responses

Fimus, please refrain from forum shopping. You've brought your issues up on article talk pages, the village pump, and now here. As I've explained, the word myth is not alone in the English language in having multiple meanings. Another classic example is the word theory. In both cases they are extremely useful classifications in the relevant fields. Honestly, you seem more concerned about getting little Timmy the information you think he should have, instead of building an encyclopaedia. If that's the case, then I'd suggest you have a look at Conservapedia. If not, and you believe a term (any term) is being used wrongly on a particular article, then bring up your concerns on the talk page of that article, and back up your claims with sources. Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Heh... This issue isn't going away any time soon, Ben. If you've got a spare couple of days, read all the arguments at the two archives at Category talk:Christian mythology, dating back years... Not to mention the comparable Jewish and Islamic pages... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I am seeking consensus on an important issue - something you failed to do, Ben--FimusTauri (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a lot of text to say ultimately very little. You endorse the use of myth in some instances and not in others. Precisely what criteria separate the two? Why should creation accounts be described as mythical but not the life of Jesus? Ilkali (talk) 16:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a slippery slope argument, but there has already been a lot of discussion and consensus on that very question, and how to keep neutrality from getting usurped by one aggressive "school of thought", and it is obviously controversial as you can get. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Defining myth, what is it that makes it what it is, what is it that makes it not something else; that ought to be interesting, it might even be worthy of an article; oh wait there is one... maybe all you guys need to do is go edit that...and then stop using it in ways that people find offensive.

Rktect (talk) 17:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Although I wouldn't gratuitously want to use any word in ways that people find offensive, that can't be our primary goal - if it was, there are a lot of articles we wouldn't even have. And I don't think you can have a religious article that some people don't find offensive. dougweller (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

"In traditional societies, myth represents the absolute truth about primordial time". That's by Mircea Eliade, who has shaped scholarship about the issue. Myths are always the absolute truth to the one who believes in them. That is not offensive. But at WP we can't handle any narrative about the creation of the world or what happened thereafter between God (or the gods) and humankind as a fact. Until it's not scientifically accepted as a fact, it's a myth, no matter how many millions of people believe in it. That Moses recieved 10 tables at Sinai mountain is (or should be) firmly believed by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, that's more than 53% of humanity... But as long as it's not considered a historic account of what happened in Egypt several millennia ago - and it is certainly not - it's a myth: "a person or thing which is fictional or unproven" (Collins dictionnary). "Unproven" does not mean it's altogether made up or a lie... it's just unproven, and the Deluge myth might even be proven as a fact some day. Until then, a believer should be able to assume that an encyclopedia can't consider something a fact just because he believes it. And we certainly can't start to distinguish what we may label a myth without offending anybody and what not. How can you tell a good Christian he should firmly believe in the Moses' narrative but not so firmly in the Deluge myth? I thought religion is precisely about believing something which is not proven; if it weren't, there wouldn't be more than one.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 23:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I promised myself that I wouldn't get into this argument again. But anyway, I don't think that we can avoid the word "myth" in many cases. The articles on Christian mythology, Jewish mythology, and Islamic mythology do and should exist; those are legitimate topics. In my opinion, anything legitimate enough to make it into Britannica is legitimate enough to be included in Misplaced Pages; and Britannica does have a section on "Christian myth and legend" (http://search.eb.com/eb/article-67562).

This does not mean that I support the use of the word "myth" in religious contexts when it serves no constructive purpose and is clearly intended to push a "myth means sacred story and not false story, and everyone should use it that way" agenda. (Before anyone accuses me of being opposed to the term "myth", please take a look at my edit history. If anything, I'm in the pro-myth camp. I've worked hard on the Christian mythology, Jewish mythology, etc. articles.) There's no need to use the word "myth" when "story" will do; nor is there a need to deliberately try to legitimate the use of the word by adding it into articles. Our job at Misplaced Pages is to report mainstream opinion, not to create it. (I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this; I'm just making a point for the record.) --Phatius McBluff (talk) 02:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I really don't think we should legislate against the use of the word "myth" at policy level. I'd personally say that myth should be used with some caution, but could be very useful for putting something into context: referring to the story of Longinus as part of mediaeval Christian mythology instantly contextualises it. It's a sensitive issue, and it should not be used in an attempt to disparage religion, but I think it does have uses, and particularly all things not found directly within the holy books should almost always use it, e.g. Veronica's Veil, Golems, etc, as well as most things found in religions that lack canonical holy books, e.g. Norse mythology, Greek mythology, Hindu mythology. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I am particularly gratified by these last two comments. Can I ask that people look at the specific proposal. I am not asking that 'myth' is simply avoided - only that it is used with care.--FimusTauri (talk) 09:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I largely agree with Shoemaker's Holiday. The word "myth" should not be randomly inserted into religious articles to push the viewpoint that "myth does not mean false story, and if you think it does, then you need to change your usage to match academic usage". Such a move would be either POV or redundant (depending on your viewpoint). However, there are situations where no other word will do. In particular, phrases like "sacred narrative" and "traditional story" are awkward and inelegant. If there's a sentence in which a religious story is called a "sacred narrative", and there is no way to restructure the sentence without distorting its meaning, then "sacred narrative" should definitely be replaced with "myth" (or, depending on the story's content, "legend"). To deny that "myth" can be used as a synonymn for "sacred narrative" would be to deny the actual use of the word in academia. Again, the word should be used for the sake of conciseness and clarity, and not so much avoided as ignored when unnecessary.

I definitely do not agree that the term "myth" applies any more to "religions that lack canonical holy books" than to other religions. If we use "myth" that way, then we'll end up promoting the popular notion that the term "myth" applies only to less "legitimate" religions. If we're going to call the stories of modern-day tribal religions "mythology", then we can't very well argue against calling Christian stories "mythology" too. (Of course, I'm not saying that religions without canonical holy books are actually less legitimate; I'm just saying that that's the common perception.) --Phatius McBluff (talk) 09:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

My thought was that, as these religions do not emphasise the strict truth of the stories, and maty (as in Greek mythology) have mutually conflicting stories, it's probably less controversial to refer to, say, the Bhagavad gita as, say, a mythic history. It still should not be used to disparage the religion, but the issue is less sensitive, as it's primarily a story used for sacred instruction, not one where the exact details need be strictly believed. B asically, to sketch out the uncontroversial points. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to mention something in my first message (a few posts above this one)... Encyclopædia Britannica also has entries on "Jewish myth and legend" (http://search.eb.com/eb/article-35338) and "Islamic myth and legend" (http://search.eb.com/eb/article-69250). So use of the word "myth" in connection with world religions definitely has encyclopedic precedent. Just thought I'd point that out. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 09:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

For those who do not have a subscription, could you just state what is included in those articles. I entirely agree that there are many stories properly defined as myth - but my biggest objection to the current wording is that it has allowed at least one article to include everything in the tanakh under the term "myth". Does the article on Jewish Mythology include the story of the Diaspora, for example?--FimusTauri (talk) 09:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

You are asking that, among other things, the Jesus story not be included in Christian mythology. That's not just a matter of diction, which is what I interpret Shoemaker's comment to be about. We may change our wording to avoid offense, but we don't change our ontology. Ilkali (talk) 12:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The essence of my point is that care should be used when applying "myth" (and many other words) to religious stories. To say "most religious stories are myths" is semantically equivalent to saying "most athletes take drugs". Accurate? Certainly, because most athletes do take tea or coffee and an occasional paracetamol. No scholarly work would claim that "most athletes take drugs", because the word "drug" has several meanings and the inherent ambiguity would lead the reader to misunderstand the intention of the author. Such a statement needs a qualifier. A scholarly work would, instead, read something like "Most athletes take mild stimulants in the form of caffeine, or mild pain-killers such as paracetamol." WP needs to be just as cautious. If you wish to say "most religious stories are myths" you must qualify such a statement, with something like "most religious stories are myths, in the sense that they are traditional stories that may or not be true".

That aside, the true debate here should actually be about the proposal for changing the wording. It is a simple fact that the current wording in the article was placed there without discussion and therefore without consensus. I would ask that editors look at my proposed alternative and debate that.--FimusTauri (talk) 12:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that Phatius McBluff has a very good point: we can't start classifying religions as those who may have myths and those where the narrative must be considered "more truthful" as to not offend. About the Jesus story: it would be a myth if it was only found in the Bible, yes. But many scholars think Jesus might have been a historic person, because of his being mentioned in Josephus, so the Bible narrative might not be a myth but an interpretation of the biography of a historic person. Therefore, Jesus is not the best example to decide if something is a myth or not. Abraham would do much better. Or Noah. Or Adam&Eva. Of course we don't need to put the word myth everywhere, I agree. But it would make very little sense to have an entry about the Deluge myth and take the Bible version out of it, because it's writtten in the Bible (and Coran) and not on cuneiform tables.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 14:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Ilyacadiz, your remarks above illustrate perfectly how the term "myth" is usually confounding, and taken to mean the antithesis of "historical". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, don't you agree that a myth is something considered unproven (but not necessarily altogether untrue) by history scholars? "Taken to mean" means that there is another, more correct, meaning. Which one?--Ilyacadiz (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Everyone here seems to agree that "we must use the term with care", but I don't think everyone means quite the same thing by this statement. The care that should be taken is carefully checking how reliable sources relate a topic and the term, not care to make sure people aren't offended. I've only been heavily involved with two articles myself, creation myth and Noah's Ark, and the vast majority of the arguments against using the term have been along the lines of the latter, with the odd 'confusion' argument thrown in. This latter type of care shouldn't enter our mind. To give a much better analogy than Fimus': many people are offended by the fact that humans are primates, but the classification is useful, not to mention interesting, and to omit it for fear of offence is nothing short of ridiculous - it should not enter our mind.

To put an ambiguous statement like "use this term with care" into the FAQ is inviting endless arguments as different people interpret it differently. The current version in unambiguous. A topic should be called mythical if and only if the majority of the reliable sources do. WP:UNDUE takes care of one direction of that implication, the FAQ takes care of the other. If Fimus is concerned about a particular instance of the use of the word myth, then he should challenge it on the talk page of the offending article, not try and insert ambiguous language here. Cheers, Ben (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

My concern is about the general use of the term. It began on one page, but I have seen its widespread misuse and am very concerned by it. The current wording is far from neutral, in my opinion, which is why I have provoked this debate. Clearly, the current wording already "is inviting endless arguments as different people interpret it differently".--FimusTauri (talk) 15:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the bigger picture. Everything should be challenged on Misplaced Pages, including this. However, the argument will end because we have some clearly defined policies to work with. Arguments about the use of the word myth will potentially never end with ambiguities as the guiding light. Ben (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

You seem to like accusing me of things, Ben (sockpuppetry, missing the bigger picture, having religious motivations, not getting the point). I am beginning to suspect personal attacks. Please remember WP:CIVIL.

On a point that you seem to be failing to grasp. Would you go to the Barak Obama page, put in a statement that "Barak Obama takes drugs" and an infobox that reads "When we use the word 'drugs' we mean it in an academic sense. It does not imply abuse or otherwise"? It is semantically equivalent to what you are trying to do with the word 'myth'. The mere fact of the ambiguity of the word means we must take extreme caution when using it - if the reader may take the wrong meaning, we must either clarify the meaning or find an alternative.

On another point, at least you seem to want to debate the actual proposal. Any comments on the proposal (rather than just the word 'myth') are welcomed.--FimusTauri (talk) 15:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Fimus, your example is about as related to this problem as astrology is to my week. Why not use the primate example I gave? It's offensive to many, it's ambiguous (so we're monkeys?), and so on. Your proposal is an attempt to try and remove the use of the word myth except in instances you personally, or anyone else who comes along, finds palatable, irrespective of the reliable sources on the matter. No go I'm afraid. As I just said, a topic should be called mythical if and only if the majority of the reliable sources do. Oh, and I have no problem debating the issue. I have a problem rehashing the debate again and again and again as you move through Misplaced Pages. Ben (talk) 15:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I can't believe the coincidence. Someone on Talk:Creation-evolution_controversy is using the current wording to argue against using the term myth. I mean, putting all of our interpretations aside, doesn't that say a lot? Ben (talk) 16:08, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Again you make accusations (that I want myth removed in all but the places I want it). Utter nonsense. If there is majority scholarly opinion about a story that it is a myth, then fine - Creation is the most obvious example. You, on the other hand, would appear to want every last story in every religious text classified as a myth. I seriously doubt that you will find reliable sources that claim this is correct. I am looking for a genuinely neutral way to use ambiguous words (not just 'myth'). If the consensus is that I haven't got that right, then please, by all means, suggest tweaks or alternatives. We all know what your alternative is, Ben - it is there for all to see, inserted without discussion or consensus.--FimusTauri (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Someone quoting the current wording in that context is proof positive we need to change it--FimusTauri (talk) 16:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

What? They argue myth technically works, but that 'creation story' is consistent with NPOV too, so why not use it. This was precisely the point of the current wording - arguments must hinge on the reliable sources, not on avoiding or attracting to a particular term. Ben (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

If a creationist objects to the word "creation myth", that doesn't mean at all we should change it. And maybe we should consider that in other languages (French, German, Spanish) "mythe", "Mythe", "mito" don't have and never had any negative connotation at all. It is word commonly used by scholars all over the world. I wasn't aware that there are people in the - very broad - English-speaking space that have evolved to consider it negative, but are you sure all English speakers would agree? At least, the scholarly community, used to read other languages, would be very astonished. "Story" is far too inexact a word for an encyclopedia. We don't say that the Bible is a "story book" but a religious text and a canonical book. Let's keep to an exact, accepted, scholarly wording.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ilyacadiz, the earliest uses in most European languages derive from the New Testament which stated that "myths" are pagan stories not to be believed. It's still widely seen in this context by many readers of the Bible. Then you have folks like Tom Paine who used the word polemically to attack the Church, not at all in a neutral way, eg "the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients.". That's the history of the word in English. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that settles it. If the negative connotation for the term myth is the opinion of the Bible that myths are pagan stories and not to be believed, as opposed to Bible stories, which must be believed, than addressing this concern by avoiding this word for Bible stories would mean that WP considers the Bible trustworthy and the rest of religions not. I fear that won't go. On the other hand, we can't address the polemic use made by certain people of certain terms in a guideline for WP policy.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 17:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Huh? You lost me. What are you trying to say here? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, maybe I got it wrong, but you said the earliest uses in most European languages derive from the New Testament which stated that "myths" are pagan stories not to be believed. It's still widely seen in this context by many readers of the Bible. I assume that most people uncomfortable with the word myth when referring to a Christian story are readers of the Bible. And I would think that they are uncomfortable because calling their own stories "myths" equates them to other (pagan) stories which are "not to be believed". So they understand that the one who uses the word "myth" wants to tell them they shouldn't believe their own stories because they are not better than the pagan ones. That's a logic reasoning, unfortunately I think we can't adapt WP style to such concerns. We can't help equating Christian (and Muslim, Jew, Hindu.... etc) stories to pagan stories, if we don't want to be very POV pro-Christian (or pro-Muslim, Jew, Hindu...). We can't try to say which stories are better and might be believed and which are not. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it isn't that clear-cut to me. We can, should, and do say which stories are believed, and currently, the pagan stories have very few believers, and very few temples, so that's what we say. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

So the number of people believing a story defines if it may be labelled a myth or not? Where do we put the minimum figure of believers for a story not to be called a myth? Any suggestions?--Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't we use the word only when there is no opposition among the described subjects or adherents to said belief? For instance, one of the larger neo-pagan religions is called Asatru. They revere the Norse sagas, but make it explicit that they are comfortable with them being referred to as "myths". It would seem then that nobody at all objects to calling the Norse sagas "myths". But if you found a source suggesting that a significant number of people did object to calling the sagas "myths", I would be the first to argue that the term "myth" should not be used, so as to be neutral and not offend the adherents. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I object to that principle. I think WP cannot establish as a guideline for the use of a word (or, for that, of an image) if believers are happy with it or not. That would amount to censorship. Many believers would not be happy with any description of their faith that does not fit into their believings.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 19:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

What you are suggesting instead, amounts to discounting the opinion of those who profess whatever belief we are describing, as insignificant, irrelevant, or possibly stigmatized as "fringe" for NPOV purpose, when it is not always "fringe" in all cases. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Unlike even more complex situations, like images of Muhammad appearing in that article, there is a simple and reasonable solution to this problem. We simply defer to the reliable sources on the topic. If they classify 'x' as a myth, then so do we. If they don't, then we don't. This is perfectly objective, easily challenged or backed up if people are concerned about fringe views, and so on. Ben (talk) 19:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

But Ben, you've already stated several times that you only hold those sources "reliable" of secular scholars that dictate to the religions how to interpret their own Bible / Quran, and sources speaking for the religious bodies themselves "unreliable". Once again, WP:RS imposes no such litmus test for establishing reliability for purposes of determining if a viewpoint is relevant or significant enough to be included in NPOV, as WP:RS/N will surely explain to you. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Break

If Misplaced Pages editors spent as much energy on improving articles as they spend on arguing over terminology, then there would no longer be any dispute about whether high school students should be able to use Misplaced Pages as a reference. (Okay, I'm exaggerating. But you get my point.) I think it's high time that both sides made some concessions in this matter. Here are my suggestions:

• In general, the pro-myth folks should stop insisting on including the word "myth" in religious-themed articles when other wordings are equally acceptable from an informational and stylistic standpoint. Consider Noah's Ark. The intro currently says, "Noah's Ark is a large vessel featuring in the myths of Abrahamic religions." Instead, why not write, "Noah's Ark is a large vessel mentioned in the Abrahamic scriptures and tradition"? The same amount of information is conveyed either way; so if an editor insisted on the former wording, I would suspect that he had some ulterior motive for inserting the word "myth" into the article.
• The anti-myth folks should stop complaining about the existence of articles like Jewish mythology and Christian mythology. As I demonstrated by citing Britannica, articles with such titles have encyclopedic precedent. Nor should anyone complain when stories about Jesus and Noah are mentioned in such articles. Given that an article titled Christian mythology exists, it can rightfully discuss any story that might fall within the category of "Christian mythology" from an academic standpoint (even if not all academics would categorize that story as a myth!). Certain editors should also stop complaining about the inclusion of Jesus, Noah’s Ark, etc., in Category:Christian mythology for the same reason.
• Third, here's something we should all be able to agree on. Articles and category listings with "mythology" in their titles should focus only on stories. Rituals, superstitions, taboos, and theological concepts are not myths by any scholarly definition. For example, Trinity does not belong in Category:Christian mythology. (Fortunately, it isn't currently located there.) Whether you believe in the Trinity or not, the Trinity is not a mythological figure: no traditional Christian story describes the adventures of the Trinity. The Trinity is a theological concept, not a myth.

I think these proposals are entirely reasonable. They might form the basis for a compromise, or at least a truce, between the two sides in this debate. Look, none of us (I hope) want to get into any more fights than are necessary. We all know that some random anonymous editor is going to complain whenever we insert the word "myth" into a religious article. So, to save ourselves a headache, why shouldn’t we defer to popular usage and avoid the word "myth" when it isn't necessary? On the other hand, we shouldn't let popular usage stop us from creating articles on legitimate topics like Jewish mythology. (I'm particularly proud of my efforts on Jewish mythology, by the way.) Just to summarize, here's my proposal:

• If a religious article doesn't have the word "myth" or "mythology" in its title and lacks any section specifically devoted to discussing "mythology", then avoid the word "myth" (except when alternative wordings are unacceptable from a stylistic standpoint).
• Articles on " mythology" should be left alone, and the attacks on them should cease. Same goes for "Category: mythology".
• Pro-myth editors should be careful not to equate "myth" with "religion". Each religion contains myths (i.e. traditional or sacred stories), but each religion also contains a lot more than just myths (i.e. rituals, theology, etc.).

--Phatius McBluff (talk) 00:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your third point, I have never seen anyone make that claim anywhere, let alone on Misplaced Pages, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. Regarding your second point, I think anyone should be allowed to challenge any material in any article if it isn't cited. Asking people to stop attacking (challenging) an article is not a reasonable request.

By far, your first point I have the biggest problem with. It leads to one of two outcomes - either we avoid the word myth with respect to all religions (no matter their status), or we only avoid it where people complain. The second instance has many obvious POV implications. Consider for instance that many mythical concepts in Christianity, or any religion, have parallels in earlier and/or different religions. It will be necessary to discuss these parallels in most articles. If we're talking about Egyptian mythology and Christian stories (or whatever), we're in trouble.

So suppose we completely avoid the word myth except in 'X myth(ology)' articles. How far do we take it? Do we have the creation myth article, but Adam and Eve feature in a creation story? What about non-religious articles? Does the evolution article mention creation myths, or must it also avoid the term? If not, how do we justify this? Do no articles on Misplaced Pages link to Christian mythology, since we're suppose to avoid the term, and in effect creating an isolated set of content forks? Or do we have to pipe a link every time, in effect censoring our article titles? When others come along and ask why we don't use the word myth to describe these things when the majority of other sources do, how do we respond? "Sorry, we prescribe our own terminology because some people don't like the term myth"? Give me a break, this is everything neutrality is not. This is not some sort of slippery slope argument, these are valid questions, answers to which we will have to justify to every other editor that comes along. It looks like a bloody nightmare to try and manage. Compared to just following suit with respect to reliable sources, for any term, not just this one, it seems like a joke.

I can not support censorship, and I can not support deviation from the reliable sources on a topic. Especially not because some people 'just don't like it'. Sorry. Ben (talk) 08:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I think Ben is right. I would summarize my opinion as follows:

• If a scientific term is commonly used without any negative connotation by the neutral and trustworthy sources we use to write WP articles, we can and should use this term. There is no sense in telling us "try to find another one".
• All religiones are to be treated equal, regardless of the number of believers they have. That is scholarship.
• No style guidelines can be made in order not to hurt believers of a certain religion. All style guidelines must follow the best available, updated and most commonly agreed upon scientific literature. Which is that may be challenged and debated in each case.

I'll put here a text sample of the WP entry Deluge myth which I think is perfectly neutral and can't hurt anybody: "In mythology, a deluge myth, or flood myth, is a story of a great flood sent by a deity or deities to destroy civilization as an act of divine retribution. It is a widespread theme among many cultural myths, though it is perhaps best known in modern times through the biblical story of Noah's Ark, the Hindu Puranic story of Manu, through Deucalion in Greek mythology or Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh."

I can't see anybody challenging this text by telling us that the biblical story of Noah's Ark shouldn't be mentioned among these myths because it's written in the Bible. And don't tell me that here the word "story" is used instead of "myth": it is completely clear to the reader that Noah's story is one of the many flood myths. Only if you can challenge that fact, then you can demand not to use the word myth when referring to a Bible story. If this fact goes unchallenged, no style guideline to avoid the term makes sense. It would amount to: "it is but we mustn't tell". Of course, as to give weight to different opinions, editors are free to include a Pope quote telling us "although scholars consider this a myth, our Church considers it to be an historic account". Why not, if you can source it.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 14:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I think both Ben and Ilya are mistaken. For example Ilya says "All religiones are to be treated equal, regardless of the number of believers they have. That is scholarship." How is that "scholarship"??? That isn't "scholarship", it's just a rather weak argument you made that doesn't make much sense. Why must we take a religion with 3 adherents as equally a "significant point of view" as one with 300 million? It flies in the face of all our policy and precedent. And similarly, Ben said "If we're talking about Egyptian mythology and Christian stories (or whatever), we're in trouble." Uh... "in trouble" with whom? All the disgruntled believers that the Egyptian myths were historical??? Come on now... Find a source that says anyone today objects to calling the Egyptian stories "myths". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ben, I think you misunderstood my second point. Let me restate it:

The anti-myth folks should stop complaining about the existence of articles like Jewish mythology and Christian mythology. As I demonstrated by citing Britannica, articles with such titles have encyclopedic precedent. Nor should anyone complain when stories about Jesus and Noah are mentioned in such articles. Given that an article titled Christian mythology exists, it can rightfully discuss any story that might fall within the category of "Christian mythology" from an academic standpoint (even if not all academics would categorize that story as a myth!). Certain editors should also stop complaining about the inclusion of Jesus, Noah’s Ark, etc., in Category:Christian mythology for the same reason.

You object that "anyone should be allowed to challenge any material in any article if it isn't cited". I don't deny that at all. In fact, strictly speaking, any unsourced material is fair game for deletion. Thus, I liked your suggestion above that we defer to the wording of our sources: If our source calls story X a "myth", then we can too; if our source uses other wording, then so should we. In making my second point, I didn't mean to deny the right of any editor to challenge anything.

What I meant is this: the existence (not the content) of articles like Christian mythology should be accepted by any anti-"myth" editors who are interested in productive dialogue with pro-"myth" editors. Based on the arguments on this and other talk pages, it seems obvious to me that productive dialogue will be impossible until the anti-"myth" folks make at least this concession.

Moreover, editors with an interest in productive dialogue should also accept the content of such articles insofar as it is cited. If we have a source that calls the Exodus story a "myth", then we can legitimately discuss the Exodus in Jewish mythology, even if not all scholars would call the Exodus a myth.

I hope that clears things up somewhat.

As for my third point, you'd be surprised what used to be in the Christian mythology article. The article used to discuss baptism and the Eucharist as examples of parallels with other mythologies. I was quick to remove that nonsense when I came upon the article. Baptism and the Eucharist are rituals, not myths! Also, see the discussion Category talk:Christian mythology#"mythology" appropriate categorization, where one editor claims that Trinity should be included as "mythology". --Phatius McBluff (talk) 02:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I got the impression you were asking editors to stop complaining about the material in those articles without any regard for sourcing. In fact, I was probably focused more on your 'summary' as I wrote my own reply, even though I read your entire response. Anyway, if it's reliably sourced and people still complain simply because they don't like it, then I agree, they need to stop.

Your last paragraph surprises me a lot. Ritual and mythology are often intertwined, but never equal. Of course, deferring to reliable sources takes just as good a care of these types of situations. If someone wants to argue the point, they need to bring reliable sources to the table. If we ignore the reliable sources for one set of articles though, we can't enforce that requirement, so I'm still opposed to your first point I'm afraid.

To make myself clear (the last reply was a bit of a shocker), the only way to stop drawn out arguments like this is to have a clear and objective requirement for inclusion, exclusion and terminology - if the reliable sources use it and include it, so do we. If they do not, we do not. Done. Importantly, it does not depend on the type of article. In this way, there is no room for argument on either side of the table - and this was precisely the goal. Some people may not like that, but we're not here to project our own feelings onto articles, we're here to reflect reliable sources. Cheers, Ben (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Here we go, "Reliable sources" again... But, you only accept sources that use your definition as reliable - proving that yours is a circular argument. You don't have authority to reject all the sources that you don't like, on grounds that you and your sources are "right" and they are thus "wrong". Any religious groups, no matter how large or significant, seem to be too stigmatized to be entitled to have their interpretations of their own scriptures treated neutrally, in your view (except perhaps where it might agree with your view!) That's not how WP:NPOV works, and not how WP:RS works, like I keep telling you. I think maybe I will do something like you did, and start collecting on my user subpage, for convenient reference, all the sources that are reliable for establishing that there are really TWO sides to a controversy on whether or not the Bible / Quran, or any parts thereof, should properly be labeled as "myth" - all those same sources that you unilaterally "rejected" as having "the wrong POV"... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

No, sorry really. You can't equate scholarly research and religious dogma. The opinion of scholars is very clear: "There are no known cases of naturally-occurring mammalian parthenogenesis in the wild". Period. The fact that hundreds of millions of catholics believe (or are supposed to believe) that precisely such a thing occured around -1 AD in the Middle East is not even mentioned. You can and you must quote the opinion of believers about their sacred stories, this is always an important piece of information, but you can't demand that this opinion affects the wording of what scholars agree upon. And you can't tell me that the story of Jesus is essentially different from the story of Karna - both mentioned in Virgin birth (mythology) - just because Hindus are less prone to complain when reading WP.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well then, we need to decide if "NPOV" means, per your interpretation, we accept only self-appointed secular "scholars" who intrude themselves into religious subjects, and we stigmatize religions with even hundreds of million of adherents, or if it means we treat the views of religious bodies on religious topics as significant and admissible. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That is not what Ilyacadiz said. Let me quote it for you:

You can and you must quote the opinion of believers about their sacred stories, this is always an important piece of information, but you can't demand that this opinion affects the wording of what scholars agree upon.

We do not exclude significant points of view, as you suggest. Cheers, Ben (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The question is, does NPOV allow us to give precedence or greater "weight" to what, say, non-Muslim scholars say about the Quran, or should wording reflect that Muslim interpretations of the Quran are equally significant?? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The answer is, the scholarly point of view is the primary point of view. The point of view of adherents is obviously significant, and must be included and discussed, giving due weight to different interpretations. It's the same with every other article Til. Intelligent design, and other pseudo-scientific topics are the classic examples of where this type of problem comes up. Ben (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well that's where I strongly disagree with you, and NPOV doesn't seem to say what you think it says. Muslim scholars are scholars, no matter how snobbish atheist scholars may feel towards them. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I looked for a proposal in the original post and all I could find was:

I feel that the policy should be to use it with great care.

So I changed the policy, under WP: SOWHAT? (TSC-01)*

• Trivial Semantic Concession 01

"great care" wouldn't be enough to prevent this issue arising again, of course. So, in lieu of future proposals, I made it stronger.

It now reads When using "myth" in a sentence in one of its formal senses, use the utmost care to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally, for instance by establishing the context of sociology or mythology.

NB: The policy is the same as before. More importantly, the sources are the same as before.

Ddawkins73 (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Break 2

This has gotten to the point where I hardly understand what's being argued. Without trying to pick a fight with anyone, I will try to explain what my confusion is. Most participants in this argument now seem to be debating the relative weight that should be given to secular sources and to religious sources. This is an interesting debate, but I don't see how it affects the question of whether the word "myth" will appear in religious articles, assuming that we go with Ben's proposal. If you recall, Ben's proposal (which I find wholly reasonable) is that we defer to sources when it comes to wording. If a published work calls the subject matter "myth", then so can we (in the portion of the text for which we are using that work as a source); but if the work doesn't use the expression "myth", then we shouldn't either. Clearly, if we adhere to this policy, then the word "myth" will easily make its way into articles, no matter how many Muslim and Christian scholars we're allowed to use as sources. Why? Because folks like Ben and Ilyacadiz will easily be able to find plenty of sources (both secular and otherwise) that call religious stories "myths". Once they have those sources, the word "myth" is fair game for insertion, regardless of how many sources do not use the word. This would be untrue only if the other side were able to provide sources that specifically condemn the use of the word "myth", and those are hard to come by. Remember, failure to use the word "myth" is not equivalent to condemnation of its use.

I admit that I may have misunderstood the point of the above debate. If so, would someone please enlighten me?

P.S.: I like Ddawkins73's change to the policy description. Something like that should have been added a long time ago. However, I'm afraid that we've reached a point where such a change will be insufficient to quell the debate. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 21:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify my above remarks. Suppose that an article contains the following sentence: "The Messiah figures prominently in Judeo-Christian apocalyptic mythology and may be a borrowing from the Zoroastrian myth of Saoshyant." (This sentence doesn't currently appear in any Misplaced Pages article, by the way.) Suppose that this sentence has 4 sources. Now, suppose that one of the sources says, "The Messiah may have entered Jewish mythology from its contact with Zoroastrian mythology". Further, suppose that the 3 other sources say, "The Messiah is an important figure in the body of Jewish prophecies and apocalytic narratives, although not all Jewish groups hold a theological belief in an actual person who will perform the deeds traditionally attributed to the Messiah", "Christians believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah", and "The term 'Saoshyant' appears in the Gathas, but the notion of a specific savior called Saoshyant developed in later Zoroastrian tradition as part of the developing story of the end-times". The first source uses the word "mythology". The 3 latter sources do not use the word, but that in itself is not a reason to avoid using the word. Thus, the words "myth" and "mythology" will be legitimate here, no matter how many sources we can cite that do not use such words. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the debate went a little far away from the subject, but I think it did because the underlying cause of the discussion is up to which point the respect for religious beliefs of a possible reader is allowed to influence the style used in Misplaced Pages. My opinion stays that scholars, regardless of their religious affiliation, are capable of analyzing in a rational way the different existing beliefs and sacred texts and use a common terminology for that purpose, and that this terminology includes the word "myth" without any offending connotation. Only if someone rejects this rational analysis because he/she assumes as true everything written in a specific sacred text, as opposed to other texts (sacred to other people), then he/she would be offended, but this approach, in my opinion, cannot be called "scholarlike" and cannot dominate the style in Misplaced Pages. That, as Ben observed, does of course not mean that the opinion of believers is to be excluded or not given due weight. It does just mean that no style guideline can be dressed on a approach which favours one specific belief as opposed to others.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Re Phatius' comment: This would be untrue only if the other side were able to provide sources that specifically condemn the use of the word "myth", and those are hard to come by. Not that hard to come by. Remember, this debate has been going on for years, and we've found quite a lot of this very thing. I'm starting a compilation now at my subpage User:Til Eulenspiegel/Religious narratives as sacred canon, and hope to have it shaped up and presentable in the near future. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Break 3

Having been away for a couple of days has proved useful to me, as I can now see where there are a number of misconceptions amongst some editors. There are also some fallacious arguments being used as a result of these:

1. I am not dogmatically against the use of the word "myth(ology)". The Noah's Ark lead was quoted earlier, which includes that word, a wording I was involved in drafting. This represented a significant compromise on the part of myself and Til, in particular. On the other hand, certain editors were dogmatically insisting that "myth(ology)" be included. The particular compromise reached stated that the story of Noah's Ark was included in the mythology of Abrahamic religions, whilst avoided stating either that the story is a myth, or that the Bible/Quran are mythologies. The distinction is subtle, but important. In theory, this sort of compromise is how WP should work. However, in practise this compromise is unsatisfactory to both sides and, further, will not prevent more arguments in the near future.
2. "The anti-myth folks should stop complaining about the existence of articles like Jewish mythology and Christian mythology." We're not. The complaint is that these articles have self-justified branding every religious story as a myth. Consider the statement "Certain editors should also stop complaining about the inclusion of Jesus, Noah’s Ark, etc., in Category:Christian mythology for the same reason." This is an attempt to justify including all religious stories in the category "myth". This is clearly wrong. "Religious stories" is not a sub-category of myth - if anything, myth is a sub-category of religious stories.
3. There is plenty of material that rightly belongs in an article entitled "Christian mythology" - George and the dragon and Arthur and the round table are two examples that spring to mind. Yet the pro-myth lobby would not only have us equate the story of Jesus with Arthur and George, they actually give the Jesus story pre-eminence as an "important example" of Christian mythology. (And, Phatius, I have gone through the history of that page and apprecaite how much you have helped to improve it, but it has a very long way to go yet)
4. "We simply defer to the reliable sources on the topic. If they classify 'x' as a myth, then so do we. If they don't, then we don't." This isn't quite what NPOV states. To quote: "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as 'the truth'" In other words, if reliable sources state that a story is a myth then we should present those sources as one point of view, and also present opposing viewpoints with due weight. We do not assert something as fact if there are conflicting viewpoints. There are plenty of viewpoints regarding the Biblical stories, certainly from David onwards, that do not consider those stories 'myths'. In big, bold letters we are told "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves." If we state "the story of Jesus is a myth", we are asserting an opinion, not a fact.
5. On Phatius' specific example about Zoroastrianism - using that example, equating Jesus with 'myth' would be a direct violation of WP:SYN and is a brilliant example of the very foundations of many of the problems we have here. The pro-myth lobby use exactly those kind of arguments to falsely justify including the word.
6. I wholeheartedly agree that "not giving offense" is not sufficient reason to avoid a word. That is not what is being argued. The argument is that most readers understand 'myth' to imply 'falsehood'. If that is what a reader believes, then that is what a reader will understand the word to mean. Therefore, if we use the word myth without explaining what we mean by it, then we are giving the reader the wrong impression - that is bad scholarship.--FimusTauri (talk) 10:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Back up

What do we mean by myth? We mean nothing (or shouldn't). By "myth", Misplaced Pages means what the reliable sources mean. Who are the reliable sources? What field or fields? Ddawkins73 (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely correct! What we mean should be what the reliable sources mean, because all we do is report the reliable sources and not interpret them. This system breaks down, however, when editors use statements from a reliable source without giving them proper context. Consider the following statement:

The academic study of mythology will, in its broadest definition, encompass many stories not traditionally seen as being 'myths', such as those found in the religious texts of many contemporary religions.

This statement (assuming an accurate definition of 'myth(ology)' precedes it) is very neutral: it provides a context for anything that follows and allows for the inclusion of the story of Jesus in the succeeding discussion. At the same time it avoids stating that "the story of Jesus is a myth". Context is vital here. Unfortunately, some editors on WP will take a source that has a statement such as this, extract comments from further on and cite them as "evidence" that the story of Jesus is seen as a myth amongst reliable sources. In this instance, the story is treated as a myth - not defined as one.

The core of my objection to the current wording is that it allows editors to effectively redefine 'myth' to encompass, quite literally, whatever they want it to mean. The word is ambiguous and, like any other ambiguous word, we have to be very careful about its use. I would like to see this discussion move away from the specific item 'myth' and into the wording of what, after all, is described as 'official Misplaced Pages policy'. The current wording was inserted without discussion. Let's discuss it!--FimusTauri (talk) 15:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, we seem to be on the path to progress. FimusTauri, do you mean that you would be okay with an article on Christian mythology that includes a discussion of Jesus if we include a disclaimer like the one you just wrote? If so, I don't think there need be any conflict between you and the pro-myth camp. Discussions of the complicated history of the word "myth" already exist at Religion and mythology#Opposition to categorizing all sacred stories as myths, Islamic mythology#Issues surrounding the term "mythology", and Christian mythology (at a few spots in the article and in the infobox), where they are tolerated by the pro-myth camp.

Here's a proposal: In Christian mythology, why don't we add the disclaimer that FimusTauri suggested to the intro, and then go through the article, making sure that we have a source for every place where we discuss a story as an example of a "myth". I'm not quite as sure that that disclaimer would be appropriate for Jewish mythology and Islamic mythology: in neither Judaism nor Islam did the Greek word muthos traditionally mean "false story". Clearly, though, some similar kind of disclaimer could be usefully added to both Jewish mythology and Islamic mythology. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 19:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

In response to Ddawkins73's question, the relevant fields for the study of mythology include folkloristics, religious studies, and classics. For a discussion of the various definitions of "mythology" used in academia, take a look at Mythology#Term. My idea for the Christian mythology article is that we start with the most restrictive definition of "myth" (the folkloristic definition: "sacred story about how the world came to be in its current form") and discuss the religious stories that fall under that definition (according to one source I have, that would include Genesis 1 and 2, Eden, and Noah; according to another source, it could also include the Christ story), then the stories that fall under the religious studies definition ("stories centering around gods"); finally we can throw the doors open and discuss Christian-themed legends, folktales, etc. The upshot of this method is that it automatically arranges the stories in something close to their order of significance for believers. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 19:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

We don't do disclaimers. However, I fully support articles establishing some context as soon as possible, the first sentence ideally. I don't see anything wrong with Fimus' proposal provided it's worked into the Christian mythology article as a discussion of the finer points of the topic, not as some sort of glaring disclaimer before the actual topic is even introduced. I don't think that will be hard at all, but this isn't the place to discuss that, so can we all agree to move that discussion to Talk:Christian mythology? Once we have established discussion there we can discuss the wording Fimus wants to discuss here without distraction.

In fact, the discussion on the Christian mythology page will be a good litmus test for the current wording, since we'll have a concrete case study to refer to. In particular, we will all be able to ask ourselves questions like: is the current wording helping or hindering in that discussion? Is the current wording inconsistent with what everyone seems happy with on the Christian mythology page? If not, we will be able to pinpoint the exact problem. If so, maybe something can be made clearer. And so on. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, okay, let's not call it a disclaimer. And "disclaimer" probably isn't the best word to describe what Fimus was suggesting anyway. (I was the one who introduced the word "disclaimer".) Anyway, I think we can all agree that something like the sentence that Fimus suggested would be perfectly appropriate in religious articles. I second Ben's proposal and suggest that we take this discussion to Talk:Christian mythology. We can then use our progress there as a basis for further discussion about general policy here. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at Talk:Christian mythology. Please go there if you want to use our discussion here to try to hammer out some kind of consensus for the Christian mythology article, which we can use to help form a consensus for general policy. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I strongly feel that Talk:Christian mythology might be appropriate for changing that one article, but is an inappropriate venue for hammering out site-wide policy. I have stated that I intend to take this all the way to arbcom if necessary, to get a binding site-wide determination on NPOV. I have also repeatedly suggested checking the sources I have found with WP:RS/N, who can certainly help those editors who have trouble grasping what satisfies the reliable source policy for establishing significant points if view, to ensure that religious views of religious texts are given due weight and are treated neutrally. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

• "There is probably no word that causes more confusion in biblical studies today than the word myth. That is because it is used in many different senses by different writers in different fields and genres, which often overlap. G. B. Caird, in The Language and Imagery of the Bible, has distinguished nine different senses of the word myth..." -- Handbook of Christian Apologetics Peter Kreeft, 1994, p. 201
• "The truth is that scholars disagree about the definition of the word. One recent writer has isolated nine definitions of myth and another documents twelve aspects of myth. This proliferation of definitions of myth is the reason why one scholar would look at Gen. 1-11 and say it is free of myth, while another scholar would look at Gen 1-11 and pronounce it entirely mythical." -- The Book of Genesis, Chapters 1-17 by Victor P. Hamilton, 1990, p. 58.
• "Mythology is a disease of language." -- Max Muller. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Like Til, I do not think that any discussion on a specific topic can be extended to a site-wide policy; once again, context is important. However, I certainly welcome the discussion proposed by Phatius and will have more to say on the relevant page.

I firmly believe that a consensus can be reached. On the face of it, the arguments boil down to two sides that say

1. You must include the word myth(ology) with respect to religious stories, and
2. You must not include the word myth(ology) with respect to religious stories.

In truth, neither of these statements is a true reflection of what either side is saying (there may be exceptions - on both sides - but this is not my understanding). The first step towards consensus is to get a true reflection of the two sides, which are better stated as:

1. Myth(ology) is the correct, academic term and is therefore appropriate in most articles on religious stories, and
2. Myth(ology) is an ambiguous word that should be used with caution in articles on religious stories.

These two opinions are considerably closer together. When the arguments are viewed in this way, I am sure that either side is better able to understand that the other side is working in good faith. That will be the next step towards consensus.

The next step towards consensus is, for me, quite straightforward, and requires only bridging the already-reduced gap between the sides. A small concession on both sides can almost eliminate the gap:

1. Although myth(ology) is the correct, academic term, which is appropriate to most articles on religious stories, we should take care in its use and ensure that the reader fully appreciates the context in which it is used.
2. Although myth(ology) is an ambiguous word that should be used with caution in religious articles, it is an acceptable word if given the correct context.

These two positions are almost identical - can we bridge the gap?--FimusTauri (talk) 13:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Only my proposal has a clear line, while the opposing arguments know no bounds. The clear line I am proposing is topics that are in any living group's "canon" (or puranas, or the equivalent) be off-limits for "myth" if there are significant published objections. Extra-canonical stuff like Holy Grail, and extremely small groups like Asatru that call their own canon material "myth" and noone disagrees, are, er, "fair game" (with apologies to L Ron Hubbard) Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

"The clear line I am proposing is topics that are in any living group's "canon" (or puranas, or the equivalent) be off-limits for "myth" if there are significant published objections". Objections to what, exactly? If a reliable source says that a particular topic is not a traditional religious story then yes, we cannot neutrally describe it as a myth. But if a theologian says "I don't want to describe Jesus' life as a myth because I'm uncomfortable with it" then (s)he is not acting as a reliable source on the ontology of theology. Misplaced Pages defers to reliable sources on ontological issues - how the world is and was and will be - but makes its own decisions on presentational matters. Whether to use a potentially offensive and ambiguous word falls into the latter category. Ilkali (talk) 14:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I should clarify that I don't mean we can't discuss who might consider the canonical stories to be myths, provided we also discuss those who disagree, per NPOV. We just shouldn't side with only one POV -- unless it truly is the only POV, as in the case of the Grail or the Norse sagas. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Til's proposal is a gross violation of the NPOV policy, not to mention unworkable. Moving back up to Fimus' comment, I didn't ever say what is decided on the Christian mythology page should be adopted site wide, I said it would make a good reference point, and would be useful to see how things work. Can we please stop clouding the discussion of such little "oh but"'s? It seems people are looking for things to object to.

Onto your proposal, can you please explain to me how the word myth is ambiguous when used with respect to religious articles? I don't see how you can make this argument. Although there are varying definitions, the concept is certainly clear enough without having a precise definition on hand, and this is all that is necessary in ancillary articles. It is exactly the same with the word theory. Readers do not need to have a solid understanding of how the term is defined for the concept to be clear in scientific articles. And of course, being a scientific article is the context for drawing upon the intended meaning of the word. In exactly the same way, religious articles are the context for drawing upon the intended meaning of the word myth. Long pseudo-disclaimers at the beginning of articles, which your proposal hints at requiring, is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia - definitions are to be discussed in the main article related to the term, mythology or scientific theory for instance. Ben (talk) 14:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)