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Obsolete is not the right word

I can see in the recent edits of the HD-DVD article, that some users (including myself) don't agree with the "obsolete" word in the beginning of the article. To the people who agree with the word obsolete, please explain your reasons why the word should be on the HD-DVD article.

I can buy an HD-DVD player or HD-DVD discs, so Why is Obsolete? the format still exists so there is no reason to put that. The format was abandoned, but it is not obsolete yet. In the meantime I removed the obsolete and leave as is.--Juancdg (talk) 01:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This is because a consensus was reached on the subject (see the most recent archive). However, I feel this needs re-evaluating, and would support a fresh discussion on it. SynergyBlades (talk) 02:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the discussion's outcome. There are connotations of the term "obsolete" that accurately describe the HD DVD format, but there also are connotations that don't. The wording in question can be interpreted to mean that the format has been superseded by something newer and technologically superior, when we really are trying to state that it's been discontinued. So why not simply refer to it as "discontinued" instead?

Or we could just leave the lead as it is (without any such reference in the first sentence), as the third sentence clearly conveys that the format had been abandoned. —David Levy 02:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

My preference would be for the latter, as the state of the format is clear enough in the second sentence, while more detail can be found in the third sentence about the format's demise, than can be conveyed accurately in the one word at the start. I know that "obsolete" was originally added after consensus to placate those IP editors changing it to "was", but with the format war long over it will be less likely anonymous editors will come in and change it to "was", and such edits can be just as easily reverted as people taking out "obsolete" (which has happened just as frequently). SynergyBlades (talk) 04:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with David Levy on this. I like the idea of not having a word there. However, if you guys insist on having one, "discontinued" works for me. — HelloAnnyong 04:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe that "discontinued" could be accurate for the article. "Was" is not right because the format exists and it's not completely dead. Leaving as "is" also could be Ok, because the next sentence explains about the current situation of the HD DVD format.--Juancdg (talk) 18:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Our sources tell us it is obsolete. The choice for me is or "was" vs. "obsolete". People took issue with "was" for the very reasons you state, so we compromised on "obsolete" ("is an obsolete" vs. "was a"). If someone can find sources indicating this is not true I believe it's relevant in the lead. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

1. Replacing "is" with "was" simply doesn't make sense; the HD DVD format has not ceased to exist.

2. As noted above, the word "obsolete" has multiple connotations, some of which are inapplicable to the format. The word "discontinued" conveys only the applicable connotation.

But again, the format's demise is described in greater detail later in the lead. Why is it necessary to also note this (with less specificity) in the first sentence? —David Levy 08:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

As I recall this all started because of anons adding it to the lead, so we discussed it to try and settle it. Honestly if it's stated elsewhere in the lead already I don't mind it being omitted from the first sentence. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the anons starting up again. :P —Locke Cole • t • c 08:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Toshiba abandoned the format and the HD DVD Promotion Group was dissolved. As such I would support the word discontinued since I would consider it to be the most accurate. --GrandDrake (talk) 23:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course HD-DVD is obsolete. The definition of obsolete, that "the format has been superseded" is the most accurate way to describe it. We already have references stating that blank recordable disks are no longer being made (Toshiba however built up a stockpile before ending manufacture). HD-DVD has been displaced by (that is, superseded by) Blu-ray. That's what obsolete means. It's bizarre that some people want to say the format is discontinued, but don't want to say it's obsolete. That's what obsolete is.--Lester 12:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the discontinued status of HD DVD should be noted in the first sentence of the article but I do not currently think it is worth an edit war to add the word obsolete. I do think though that those who argue that HD DVD is "not obsolete yet" will have a harder time doing so with every passing month. --GrandDrake (talk) 11:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that HD DVD isn't "obsolete" in the sense described by Lester. The issue is that the word also carries other (perhaps more common) connotations that don't accurately describe the format. The word "discontinued" conveys the intended meaning without ambiguity. —David Levy 12:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

If you look in a dictionary, you'll see that the word "obsolete" has several meanings. The first part of definition #2 from the first set ("of a discarded or outmoded type") accurately describes the HD DVD format, but the second part ("out of date") does not. (The format's age isn't a factor.)

No other definition on that page accurately describes the format. Some obviously are inapplicable to this context, but others (particularly "outmoded in design, style, or construction") would mislead people with such connotations in mind.

Essentially, the issue is that readers are likely to interpret the statement to mean that the HD DVD format has been superseded by something newer and widely regarded as better (just as VHS was rendered obsolete by the widespread adoption of DVD).

Conversely, the word "discontinued" conveys the intended meaning (and only the intended meaning), so what's the problem? —David Levy 12:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that there's still some "combo" (combined) Blu-ray/HD-DVD machines on sale (LG brought theirs to market around the time the format's demise was announced.) With blank disks no longer manufactured, the HD-DVD format is dead. It is superseded by Blu-ray not because it's bad, but because of market forces. Betamax was a technically superior format to VHS, but Betamax was made obsolete by VHS due to market forces.

When using a dictionary, not every one of the multiple meanings has to fit. The main meaning of obsolete, that it has been superseded by something else, accurately describes both Betamax and HD-DVD, despite the technical merits of both formats.--Lester 12:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

1. I don't believe that there are any Blu-ray/HD DVD combo devices that haven't been discontinued as well. Some remain available for purchase until supplies are exhausted (as is the case with standalone HD DVD devices), but I'm not aware of any that are currently being manufactured or developed.

Your chronology appears to be off, as LG released its second combo player (which I own) before the HD DVD format's demise was announced. According to what I've read, that's when the product was discontinued and the development of a third model was canceled.

2. I'm not claiming that every definition of a word must apply or that it's incorrect to state that the HD DVD format is "obsolete." I'm saying that such wording is very likely to be misinterpreted (so the word "discontinued" is a much better choice).

3. Why do you regard "superseded by something else" as "the main meaning of obsolete"? I don't even see a similar definition at Dictionary.com. —David Levy 13:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

archive

someone should move most of this page to /archive, reduce it down to about a tenth of what it is, leaving nothing but a comparison with ble-ray and links to the format wars historical article, and blu-ray, and then link to the archive. no-one cares about this format anymore, its just a historical note at this point.Scientus (talk) 23:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh really? Betamax has a pretty long article too... Just because something fails in the market place or becomes obselete or whatever doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages stops documenting it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.91.186 (talk) 07:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

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