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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by GenuineMongol (talk | contribs) at 04:16, 26 February 2009 (→Mongolia during Tang rule). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Mongolia during Tang rule

Mongolia during Tang rule (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Content fork.

No real sources unless you count primary ones, or "Smith, p. 4711" or "Cambridge History of China, vol. 11" without page number. Some rather strange claims (like Chinese conquered the Russian steppe), a somewhat unclear reference to the Khitan people who were far from dominating in the area at the time - and whose exact ethnic affiliations are not really as clear as that strange reference seems to imply - and a lot of stuff that has no obvious relation to Mongolia at all. Most of the content for this article has been removed from Han Chinese a while ago (like here by myself or here by someone else). Valid content - for several decades in the 7th century, the Göktürks were subjects of the Tang dynasty - is treated much better in Tang Dynasty#Turkish and Western regions, Protectorate General to Pacify the North, History of Mongolia#Turkic_Period and Göktürks. Yaan (talk) 17:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

please note that all "delete" votes on this page are the result of canvssing by User:G Purevdorj, evidence is at the bottom of the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:40, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This non-signed user vandalized my talk page with the non-sense content with the offensive remarks, i.e. "GenuineMongol, you got owned", before G.Purevdorj notified me of the existence of such article. Are there any alive administrators out there to stop this vandal spitting all over the Mongolian related pages? See Talk:Mongolia. I removed the same remark from my talk page. See the history of my talk page. I am all for the deletion of the article. --GenuineMongol (talk) 04:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete The content reflects traditional Chinese history conceptions, not a picture of history as could be reached by using sources not intended for tradition. I don't see any way to mend it as the topic is inherently biased and, as Yaan pointed out, you cannot really speak of an effective Chinese rule. Why not write an article about pre-Heian Japan under Chinese rule? Nominally, they were in some sense, but no one would think of writing such nonsense. This article is pure Chinese chauvinism and deserves to be deleted. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
note that G Purevdorj has canvassed at least six pro mongolian editors starting from this edit. taking a look at all his next edits, he is trying to hide the blatant POV canvassing by switching into mongol language. all the other people who voted "delete" have a message left by him on their talk pages to hurry here and vote delete. as they all work primarily on mongol related topics and have pro mongol POV, these votes have to be struck out.
WRONG-accordinig to WHITE MAN Kenneth Scott Latouretter Han chinese emperor Tang taizong owned the gokturks and khitans, and was crowned khagan of the gokturks and since gokturk territory controlled mongolia, he owned mongolia. last time i checked, he wasnt chinese. Kenneth Scott Latourette has a PHD in oriental studies at yale university, unlike you.
The Chinese and their History and Culture" by Kenneth Scott Latouretter FOURTH REVISED EDITION 56892 Library of Congress card number- 64-17372 Printed by Macmillan ISBN 0-8160-2693-9
Gantuya eng correctly pointed out below that this article is trying to ignite hatred between Chinese and Mongolians, and you're obviously quite aware that you're continuing in this vein. You don't need to be Chinese to do so. Eg it would be possible to detail the systematic bias persisting in a sinology originally devoid of ancillary sciences. G Purevdorj (talk) 08:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Lautorette had a PHD inj oriental studies and is not sinocentrist. otherwise he wouldnt have tried to convert them to christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.138.30 (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete 1. Mongolia did not exist when the Tang dynasty shortly invaded the Turkic khanates, so Mongolia could not be subject to the Tang rule. 2. Article Göktürks has mentioned the short invasion. So, there is no need and basis for creating this article. It must be deleted. GenuineMongol (talk) 12:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
physical area of mongolia was ruled by tang dynasty. and latouretter said the khitans were mongols, and he had a PHD in oriental studies at yale university, unlike you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.157.126 (talk) 04:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete "Mongolia under Tang?" To me it doesn't sound scientific. There was a short period of Tang occupation during the Turkic Kaganate, and that period has already been described in other articles in a more scientific way. In addition, the author of this "article" is the same person who, under varying IP numbers, persisted inserting veiled vandalism in China and Mongolia related articles intentionally trying to humiliate the histories of these two modern nations and trying to ignite hatred between these two friendly peoples beginning from mid-December. In this light, the "Mongolia under Tang rule" article is also seen as a veiled vandalism. This is also proved by the non-civic and rather unhealthy behaviour of the author in the talk lists of certain members. Gantuya eng (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
which incidently has a single source written by a MONGOL? obvious unreliable source exposed right away —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Again, i would like everyone to know that all the users who voted "delete" have a message from USer:G Purevdorj, telling them to come here and hurry to vote delete. he then switched into mongol language to the ones who spoke it. not to mention the fact that all users who have voted delete, have edits primarily concerning mongols AND have pro mongol POV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

G purevdorj has canvassed a number of pro mongol editors to vote delete, for some of them he started off in english, then switched to other languages like mongolian, and german, secretly telling them to delete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Gantuya_eng&diff=prev&oldid=272931606

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Latebird&diff=prev&oldid=272932305

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Enerelt&diff=prev&oldid=272932664

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:GenuineMongol&diff=prev&oldid=272933434

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Angarag&diff=prev&oldid=272933975

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Sergelen&diff=prev&oldid=272934159

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Inmongolia&diff=prev&oldid=272949399 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You're a nuisance. As you rightly say, I didn't rally any disinterested editor, and therefore my behaviour is accurate. In the cases where I wasn't sure about the actual opinion of the editor (eg Angarag), I put it completely neutral and didn't make any suggestions. G Purevdorj (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
apparently your not reading policy.
  • Keep Retain Tang rule over Mongolia (618-755) is valid, should nto be counted as simply "Turkic Period". The Gokturks had very little control over this area after 645.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Who were defeated by Tang? Mongols? Or Turks? Did Mongols exist in that time? Did Khitans, who are claimed by the author of this article to be related to Mongols, dominate the area when Tang invaded? It is risky to vote on a subject you are not familiar with.GenuineMongol (talk) 02:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Latouretter has PHD in oriental studies at yale univesity, and he says the Khitans are mongol. It is also said by liguists that khitan language is a proto mongolic language. Linguist list groups khitan language subgroup as mongolian OWNED
Khitan language and Mongolian language are equal siblings of the same language family and none of them is ancestral to the other. The modern ethnic group of the Daurians are thought to be the genetic descendants of the Khitans. In one of the articles related to the Chinese history I was disappointed to read that the Khitan state is described as one of the Chinese dynasties rather than one of the nomadic empires. Even I expressed my opinion in the talk page of that article. Gantuya eng (talk) 03:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
G_Purevdorj isn't the first initiator of the deletion of this article. I had already expressed my deletion suggestion in the talk page of the article before he wrote me in my personal talk page. He has the right to exchange opinions with other editors and he is always welcome to write in my personal talk page. Gantuya eng (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Hold on My first suggestion is to merge into appropriate sections of the History of China/Mongolia/Gokturks series. There really was no such thing as "Mongolia" during the Tang dynasty. It is on that basis that I feel there isn't much to say about "Mongolia during the Tang dynasty". Right now, the article looks like a brag-piece along the lines of "the Chinese conquered Mongolia before there was Mongolia. How amazingly accomplished of them!" If an argument can be made that that article can be populated with more substantial contents, e.g. detailed information of Tang administration of Mongolia, or the relations between the Tang emperor and his (her) various vassals, then the article should be kept. As yet, no such argument has been made out. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
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