This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Verbal (talk | contribs) at 18:20, 8 March 2009 (Changed name of section, replied). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 18:20, 8 March 2009 by Verbal (talk | contribs) (Changed name of section, replied)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) | Estonia B‑class Low‑importance | ||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||
 | Biography Unassessed | ||||||
| |||||||
Classification as charlatan
The common classification of Mr. Vanaküla in recent newspaper publication is soolapuhuja, literally one who blows onto salt, metaphorically a charlatan. If anybody knows a better way to translate it than to expand the metaphor, feel free to help. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Further expansion?
Apparently, the raktobleer saga has some relevance to this article. Unfortunately, I don't know anything more about it than what I saw in the clip of Ärapanija. Anybody help? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
"America"
The obvious reason for entries of this list is naming a bunch of regions associated with esoteric geography. That is why the entries are so clearly vague, too. However, it means that "America" can not be linked to USA -- it would be imprecise, and possibly amount to WP:OR.
If the list actually had a meaning, Mesoamerica would be a likelier candidate. After all, among many of the funky beliefs of the tokronauts is the idea that Mayans predicted the Apocalypse to happen in 2012, and when that passes, they will rule the Earth. 62.65.237.233 (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Claims to "Estonian paganism"
Paganism has certain generic connotations. While it is true that the Tokronauts sometimes call themselves 'Estonian pagans', and their website's name translates as 'House of pagans', Mr. Vanaküla's church can not claim monopoly on paganism in Estonia -- any more so than Antti Loodus, one of the few Christian Fundamentalists in Estonia, who maintains a website calling itself "Estonian Christian Forum", can claim monopoly on Estonian Christianity. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 08:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Reply to claims to "Estonian paganism"
In Estonia there are pagans who are called "Maausulised", there are pagans who are called "Taarausulised" and there are pagans who are called "Estonian Pagans" (also in media) - this is written with recurring capital letter. Estonian Pagans with recurring capital letter means specific group of people not every Estonian pagan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WorldReporter (talk • contribs) 13:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
corpse-finding
The corpse-finding episode is potentially interesting. Unfortunately, *this* is where the newspaper's yellowness matters: Õhtuleht is known for propping up such announcements with little factual basis.
Let's give this story a little time to develop. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- More details of that episode have become public. Needless to say, it's not by half as interesting as the original yellow report. I submit that describing it here would serve no encyclopædic purpose -- but if anybody disagrees, is another useful news source. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 23:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with You.
- The majority of witnesses, who were with Hannes Vanaküla at the scene of corpse-finding at the same time when Hannes Vanaküla found the dead body of Kaido Sirel, witnessed that Hannes Vanaküla found the the dead body of Kaido Sirel. And Misplaced Pages follows the principle of Burden of Evidence WP:BLP Misplaced Pages: Burden of Proof - here are majority of witnesses against one woman, so there is no question if I should write that Hannes Vanaküla found the dead body of Kaido Sirel in the article. This is fact that Hannes Vanaküla found the dead body of Kaido Sirel.
- The fact that one woman claimed that she found the dead body of Kaido Sirel does not override the fact that Hannes Vanaküla found the dead body of Kaido Sirel.
- By the way, media gave false information about the reward of Lost UÜ. Media wrote that the Lost UÜ had laid out gratuity of 15000 EEK for the one who gives a hint, which leads to the finding of Kaido Sirel. So there is a possibility that the woman lied to get the reward herself. By the way, the same woman searched for the dead body herself and also with her acquaintances and relatives almost every day for over three months after no results she called Hannes Vanaküla and asked Hannes Vanaküla to come and find the dead body. WorldReporter (talk) 21:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Possible violations of policies
(WP:Biographies of Living Persons, Burden of Evidence, WP:Neutral Point of View, WP:Liebel, WP:No Reliable Sources and WP:No Original Research in Misplaced Pages article about Hannes Vanaküla)
I read the rules of Misplaced Pages and discovered that the sources for material have to be reliable. There is brought out sect accusations in the article about Hannes Vanaküla. The problem is that these sect accusations are made without any proof (slander). If these sect accusations are brought out in the encyclopedia of Misplaced Pages, then readers will take these as reliable accusations because only reliable sources can be used in an encyclopedia. It unrighteously harms the personal life, the reputation, the business, the friends of Hannes Vanaküla and other people in relation with Hannes Vanaküla. In the article, user Diqwuren has also implemented tagging of insulting titles such as self-declared mage, and a cult leader without a proof.
Sources for sect accusations under the topic „Media Exposure“ are not reliable sources WP:BLP WP:RS – A biography of a living person is not this what some people have said without any proof in a TV show "Pealtnägija" in which even the programmer of the TV show "Pealtnägija" lied about Hannes Vanaküla (the documented proof about that fact exists) and also not this what one yellow newspaper has written about this person without any proof on the basis of this TV Show only. An encyclopedia article must compose of facts about the person, not of this what someone has lied about this person without any proof. A lie about the person is not a reliable source for a biography of a living person. By the principle of Burden of Evidence, which Misplaced Pages follows, the burden of evidence WP:BLP Misplaced Pages: Burden of Proof lies on the one who accused Hannes Vanaküla not on Hannes Vanaküla. As I have understood ,Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is not a toilet wall where people can write and smear each other with lies and without an evidence.
Secondly, the article is not written from a neutral point of view WP:NPOV and is downright defamatory WP:LIBEL. The author of the article wrote that Hannes Vanaküla has been described as a charlatan, but he has not pointed out that media has also declared Hannes Vanaküla as a mage, a prime witch, a witch, a shaman and a clairvoyant. Also the sources the author Digwuren has used for this article contain this kind of declarations. The source of the first reference, which the author of the article has used to backup his claim, actually controvert to the claim of the author of the article – actually, media decleared Hannes Vanaküla as a mage not a self-declared mage. Some text under year 2008 activties is a lie. In fact, Digwuren’s opinion that his score was not noteworthy is Digwuren’s personal opinion, which hid important facts. As I have read the rules of wikipedia I know the place of such a statement is not in a biography of a living person in Misplaced Pages. Hannes Vanaküla’s score was noteworthy as there were over 20 sensitives in the beginning of the TV show Selgeltnägijate tuleproov (Template:Lang-et). He got the seventh place and his students got the fifth and the third place. His explanations for reasons of his failure were not complicated. Again, You did not follow the rules of Misplaced Pages. Most of his explanations for reasons of his failure were plain and logical. By the way, he did not blame russian sorceres in media. Do You have some reliable sources to prove that?
Under bibliography Digwuren has written: „Hannes Vanaküla’s zany publicity stunts, such as begging in the nude for people to buy the book, caused some media interest.“ This is also a lie. He was not nude (he was partially nude) and he did not beg – he said: “buy now, my book.“ There has been no other puplicity stunt, which has caused media interest. So You can’t write as You wrote. Or have You got some source to prove that? And naming it zany is Your individual opinion, it has been named as a parody in media.
I could have inserted much more references but I did not want to waste my time there where the burden of evidence lies not on me WP:BLP Misplaced Pages: Burden of Proof.
The article violates WP:BLP, Burden of Evidence (Burden of Proof) which is followed by Misplaced Pages under WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, WP:LIBEL, WP:NOR and WP:RS. WorldReporter (talk) 21:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
- On 23 February 2009 11:27 user Digwuren instead of joining into the dispute over the violations in the article about Hannes Vanaküla in Misplaced Pages, about which he was informed by an e-mail, he made another edit with the article. With this edit he added a topic "political discussion".
- The problem is that this formal inquiry, about which he wrote on 23 February 2009 in the topic "political discussion", bases only on the TV show "Pealtnägija" in which the accusations were made without any proof, which is an unreliable source, and which I described in my previous post under this section. In this formal inquiry, such statements as in the clause Jüri Pihl regarding the activities of Vanaküla's sect, asking whether this sect — which they characterised as an 'extremist group' have no proof and are slander, WP:BLP Misplaced Pages: Burden of Proof as there is no proof that the group is a sect and that the group of people has been engaged in the activities described by the TV show "Pealtnägija" at all. This material about political discussion in the article of Misplaced Pages is defamatory and it is Misplaced Pages policy to delete libellous material when it has been identified WP:LIBEL. I also remind that by the principle of Burden of Evidence, which Misplaced Pages follows, the burden of evidence lies on the accuser not on the one who has been accused WP:BLP Misplaced Pages: Burden of Proof.
- If this kind of formal inquiry is brought out in the encyclopedia of Misplaced Pages, then readers will take the statements of this as non-libelleous because they know it is Misplaced Pages policy to delete libellous material when it has been identified. It unrighteously harms the personal life, the reputation, the business, the friends of Hannes Vanaküla and other people in relation with Hannes Vanaküla. WorldReporter (talk) 21:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)