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Merge?

I added a merger tag to this article. Since it seems like his only claim to notability is for shooting, I think it might be more appropriate to merge his biography in with the article, at least until such a time when there is enough information to warrant a separate article.--Witan 14:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a case of WP:ONEEVENT, which links to BLP-issues. So let me quote from there: "If the event is significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article for the person is sometimes appropriate. I think BLP trumps notability, so I don't think a different article for the perpetrator is warranted at this time. Lectonar (talk) 14:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

As i said earlier in another discussion this isnt just another school shooting or shooting at all. It is a national trauma for Germany and a worldwide news story. Just because Tim wasnt american (as most american school shooters has their own articles) doesnt mean that he is less notable than them. I say lets keep it.--Judo112 (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

As you might have noticed, I'm German myself, and I still don't think he warrants an article at this point. Lectonar (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Oneevent says to avoid articles for low-profile individuals known for only one event; Kretschmer is not low-profile. Nietzsche 2 (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreeing with Nietzsche Oneevent doesnt apply here. This is not a low-prpfile person obviously he is all over the news stations and newspapers wherever you are. I say Keep the article.--MarkusBJoke (talk) 14:51, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, Tim is no longer a living person; so I'm not sure why BLP is being used here (except to protect the identity of his parents; but that's a separate topic IMO). Fightin' Phillie (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

If you scroll down a bit at the BLP page, you will find a mention of that. Lectonar (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:BIO1E (rather than WP:BLP1E) doesn't seem to matter whether the subject is living. Cover the event, not the person. By all means have a section on Kretschmer in the main article, but his notability does not exist independently of the incident. BIO1E does, however, state "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." I'm not sure though if this is the case with this incident – especially with the example of Gavrilo Princip. Cycle~ (talk) 17:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Keep Found the information on deceased on the BLP page, but it doesn't really state anything other than "be good." The reason I think this article should exist separate from the incident article is this: we will never know why he did it (unless a confession note is found that was known to exist ahead of time). Thus, including information about him playing counter-strike, or poker, or table tennis, or his social status, or (...) cannot be clearly tied to the shooting. Thus, these things don't belong in the article about the shooting(s), but rather on his biography page. Sure, it's worth mentioning that he was a marksmen (because it demonstrates that he knew how to use a handgun), but it's impossible to say that his motive for the shooting was because of his ability to play table-tennis, or his lack of a girlfriend from the school, or ... Fightin' Phillie (talk) 17:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

But are informations about him playing counterstrike etc. relevant enough for an article? Lectonar (talk) 08:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge - completely non-notable outside this one event.139.48.25.60 (talk) 19:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge - sure, an article might be more appropriate a couple weeks or a year down the track but right now coverage in German newspapers is still breakingnewish, and English reporting is even worse. There aren't enough good sources to make an article that's more than a section's worth of the Winnenden school shooting in size. Nevard (talk) 21:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Keep - Just to make it clear. my reasons above.--Judo112 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Keep this page has potential. expect a zillion pages of analysis to come around by the media and authorities, that could be added. 123.129.143.62 (talk) 05:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Keep - very, very important page. Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 08:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge Notable only in light of incident. --Ferengi (talk) 10:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Keep - as it isnt just another school shooting. effecting a whole nation. this isnt just another guy.--MarkusBJoke (talk) 10:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge - as sad and heartbreaking as this shooting has been, this is 'just another guy' as the editor above put it. He is notable for just one thing and all information about him can be located in a small section in the main article. I can see no reason whatsoever to keep this article, since all it would be able to do to grow would be to rehash the things written in the more important article about the incident. This boy did a terrible, unforgivable thing, but unfortunately, there is nothing new about his actions. He is not the first person to walk into a school and open fire, and he is not the first kid to go to a school and open fire. It is also not the first incident of it's kind in either Europe or Germany, so I don't see a reason to keep an article on the perpetrator on that kind of notability grounds either. As crude as it may sound, there is nothing new or 'stand-out' about this boy, and certainly nothing outside of the murders that would get him an article here. Merge as soon as possible in my opinion. Sky83 (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Should we delete Seung-Hui Cho, then? He's 'just another guy', too. 'He is not the first kid to go to a school and open fire.' as well. Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 12:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I think you're missing the point. Take a look at this article. It is a stub and very likely to remain that way. The Cho article is not. If (and that is a very big if) there is something that makes this kid particularly notable in the future, such as the depth and range of information included in the Cho article, the decision (if that is to merge) could be looked at again. At is stands however, there is nothing about Kretschmer that can't be included in the main article and Misplaced Pages does not keep articles on the grounds of potential or future notability. Additionally, Cho was particularly noteworthy due to amount of victims, both dead and injured. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trivialise these murders, but the bottom line here is that there is nothing special or groundbreaking about this kid outside of him firing a gun. This is a bit of a grey area though, so I understand where you're coming from. It might be helpful to take a look here to see that a large proportion of school-related murders are included on the incident alone, not the perpetrator. Sky83 (talk) 12:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

One reason that this article is "still a stub" is that the "Suggested Merge into" banner is scaring people away. Do you really think that "he enjoyed playing table tennis" belongs in the school shooting article? I think the real discussion is how important is Tim Kretschmer. I'll rework the article to look more like a biography than a collection of 1 line statements. Fightin' Phillie (talk) 13:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge If that shouldn't be clear. Lectonar (talk) 12:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Support Merge He's only famous for the shooting and the article is too short, can't be compared with Seung-Hui Cho. 98.119.177.171 (talk) 06:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

School

When did he leave? What qualifications did he gain? Was he ever in any trouble there? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

He finished the german Realschule in summer 2008 with relatively poor grades - more or less equivalent to highschool. He then started an apprenticeship but quit after a while. I therefore would not call him a student - he was basically unemployed if I see things right. --The O o (talk) 23:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Was he ever suspended or excluded? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 02:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Jewish?

Jew?

Noticed by authorities before shooting spree?

Were social services, police or mental health professionals ever involved in his life? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Post-mortem personality

http://translate.google.de/translate?prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPostmortales_Pers%25C3%25B6nlichkeitsrecht&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=

so why do you say his name?? --80.131.246.29 (talk) 19:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Easy: Because German law does not apply for an English page hosted in the United States. Also note that there are several German media publications telling his full name. --AR,19:20, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

And personality rights will end with death (also in Germany) --NiTeChiLLeR (talk) 02:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Which is not really true; the German article google translated above is about this. Famous cases have been : Tron (hacker) and Marlene Dietrich. Lectonar (talk) 08:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Filmed suicides

I may be overlooking something, but I've looked through the articles cited as references and nowhere does it mention in any of them or in any article on Misplaced Pages that his suicide was filmed, yet he is one of the people listed in the category of "Filmed suicides". Where does it say anywhere that his death was filmed? NIRVANA2764 (talk) 01:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

There is footage of him shooting himself dead, so the category applies. It has been shown on British national television, but with the actual suicide cut from it. The article should state that the suicide was filmed, and say who filmed it. Nietzsche 2 (talk) 02:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Sister

He had a 15-year old sister. His father (49 years old), a mathematician by profession, had a own company with 100 people. --Syker Fotograf (talk) 16:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

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