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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JackofOz (talk | contribs) at 03:39, 11 November 2005 (→Further sources supporting the view that Adams had homosexual leanings: not about gossip). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive:

• Talk:Nick Adams/Archive 1

Temporary parking of photos:

Article dispute notice

• Please take note that I have inserted a dispute notice regarding text placed by User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. in this article as well as that of Elvis Presley. Because the comments in the two articles are interconnected, the reason for the dispute notices is being stated first on Talk:Elvis Presley# Article dispute notice and will subsequently be dealt with in this article. Ted Wilkes 15:09, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Sources problem

• The Dee Presley manuscript doesn't appear to have ever been published, nor do excerpts relevant to this article appear to ever have been published in a tabloid as previously asserted.

This is not true, as the National Enquirer published a summary of the accusations by Dee Presley. Her claims have been discussed in books, articles and on webpages. Here are some excerpts from a discussion at "TCB-World, where Elvis fans meet":

Why Elvis didn't say bye bye to Colonel???

Look i refuse to believe what i am about to say, plus this is how rumors start, but...According to Dee (and apparently she saw it so she says) that she saw E having affairs with guys...stuned, man i was when i read that, and still i refuse to believe it, but apparently he and Nick Adams had a thing going, and this may be the reason why E never said good bye to the cigar muncher, and the one arm bandit, man has the colonel got a lot to answer for, i am not going to start a bitch here, but i have a lot of resentment for the whole crowd that was around him (although i do have a lot of respect for Red) but who knows, why he did not let the Colonel go, this is what i read on some web site, where Dee had been interviewed, mind you this is like late 90's so a lot of time has gone by, and you can now say what ever you like about the man, he is not here to defend himself, but then again if things had been different he would still be here...What a loss...

Dee Stanley appeared on the Geraldo show in America a few years ago claiming that Elvis and his mother had been lovers. It was the most sickening claim that has ever been made against Elvis. She appeared on the show with the owner of the National Enquirer who had run the story. She stated that the relationship between Elvis and Gladys had been incestuous and talked about Gladys having a drink problem because she couldn`t deal with it. She stated that a member of staff at Graceland had told her that she had seen them getting out of bed and that she knew something had happened and also that Vernon had told her about it and how he had always been an outsider in his own family. ... JD Sumner ... said she even claimed he was gay in the book. ...

There are also critical remarks by Ann-Margret concerning Dee Presley's claims that Elvis had homosexual relationships with men. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• The 1972 Sal Mineo interview, hearsay about hearsay, appears to be the only source for all of the subsequent "Nick Adams was gay" rumours that have been published. The problems with the Mineo interview are given at Talk:James Dean.

Given that the Mineo interview is the only documented source for this rumour, and that Mineo himself seemed to downplay the credibility of it seconds later, I strongly suggest that any references to the "Nick Adams was gay" rumour be deleted from the article. Given my past informal mediation with 141, I'll await consensus. Wyss 18:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, there are several independent sources which prove that Adams was gay. Adams frequently appears on lists of famous gay people. See or

For Natalie Wood and the gay men in Hollywood, including Nick Adams, see Gavin Lambert, Natalie Wood: A Life. See these reviews:

In Hollywood Gays, author Boze Hadleigh writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." See

It is also suggested that Adams's friend James Dean was gay. See Another internet source says:

The debate about Dean's sexuality rages passionately. He told a friend, "I've had my cock sucked by five of the biggest names in Hollywood...". He also claimed to have worked, with his friend Nick Adams, as a street hustler when he first arrived in Hollywood. When asked if he was gay, he replied, "Well, I'm certainly not going through life with one hand tied behind my back". See Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Following the above, and 141's stated withdrawl from the discussion (as posted at Talk:Elvis Presley) I'll remove the disputed material from this article. Wyss 19:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of dispute notice: Dispute notices must remain until the various issues have been dealt with. As I need to document them for precise clarification on the talk page, I have reverted this back to the point where I had inserted the dispute notice. The issues on this article with respect to certain edits need to be dealt with as I stated when I inserted the dispute notice. Once done, then we can always fix this up. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 02:31, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: - In his quest to make Elvis gay,User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. quoted gossip writer Gavin Lambert as referring to Nick Adams as gay in his book on Natalie Wood. Note that The Guardian newspaper also opens their comments on Gavin Lambert's book on Natalie Wood by reminding readers it is high-class gossip. As such no encyclopedia would quote from it but I find it interesting that while there is a direct quote about Nick Adams asserted to be from the book, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. neglected to state the quote was made as offhand gossip without facts of any kind and with respect to Presley, did not mention the following from page 119:

• "Nick Adams, who happened to be in New York that week, had recently managed to ingratiate himself with Elvis Presley. He told Natalie (Wood) that the singer wanted to know if he might ask his favorite actress for a date. "Natalie was all shook up after Presley called and asked her to go out with him when she got back to Los Angeles"

Here are some significant quotes from Lambert's book:

p. 199: "Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams, whom the publicity department considered a more likely "beau" than Sal Mineo for the New York premiere of Rebel."

p. 199: ""Her next arranged date, after A Cry in the Night, was with Raymond Burr, who played the sophisticated Older Man of the World and escorted her to Romanoff's and La Rue."

p. 205: "On the third day, Natalie invented an urgent reason for returning to Los Angeles, where she assured Maria that "nothing happened," then braced herself for Louella Parsons, who demanded and got an interview on the Elvis situation. Parsons began by reminding Natalie that she'd "taken her to task" more than once for "cheapening herself with all this romance activity with Nick Adams, Tab Hunter, Raymond Burr and heaven knows who else."

So it is clear that Lambert has stated that Adams (and some other actors) were gay. Onefortyone 13:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Lambert's biography was highly praised by Natalie Wood's daughter, Natasha Gregson Wagner. She calls Lambert's book "a wonderful biography on my Mom ... that we are all involved with - everybody that knew my Mom and was close to her - and that will really be the one I hope everyone reads. It will be the definitive biography on my Mother." In this biography, the author clearly stated that Nick Adams was Wood's first date with a Hollywood gay. Lambert, himself a homosexual living in Hollywood, certainly knew that Adams was gay. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is a positive review of Lambert's book from Publisher's Weekly: "Lambert follows her from such childhood triumphs as Miracle on 34th Street to her breakthrough adult part opposite James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause. Wood's overlapping affairs with Rebel director Nicholas Ray and cast member Dennis Hopper, and brief romance with Elvis Presley, will be familiar material to aficionados. But Lambert reveals deep sensitivity and understanding of her development as an actress, and he's one of the few authors to capture the depth and beauty of her relationship with Robert Wagner. Lambert also effectively highlights Wood's shrewd professional moves, including her pretense to boss Jack Warner that she didn't want to star in Splendor in the Grass, because she knew he would refuse to let her appear in it if she displayed enthusiasm. The shooting of Wood's film with Robert Redford, Inside Daisy Clover, has special authenticity, since Lambert wrote the screenplay and witnessed her frustrations after several crucial voice-overs were cut from the final print. Details regarding Wood's tragic drowning are inevitably speculative and vital questions remain unanswered. But Lambert eloquently clarifies the self-destructive reasons behind Wood's addictions and insecurities, and in the end, readers will feel they truly know the subject more than they do in most biographies."

Certainly Lambert is a reputed biographer.

(More to come on various disputed text upon completion of the interconnected Elvis Presley page as stated above.) Thanks. Ted Wilkes 02:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

It's become rather plain Lambert's passing reference to Adams (as gay) was the result of his own sloppy research (or lack) and derives only from a rumour started by the Mineo interview in 1972. There is no basis for it, and including the reference in an encyclopedia article would be misleading IMO. Yes, it's possible NA told Mineo he'd had an affair with Dean, I've dealt with that in the James Dean article. I'm ready to remove the reference from this one. Wyss 13:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Lambert himself was a homosexual and part of the gay circles in Hollywood. If he says that Adams was gay, then it must be true. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I must laugh here, 141. Lambert was gay, therefore he knows NA was gay. Please... you wontedly do better than that. Wyss 18:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Disputed text:

The disputed text will be dealt with in a step-by-step process as per my comments above and in conjunction with the disputed text as per Talk:Elvis Presley#Article dispute notice

THE ARTICLE STATES:

• In the quest to make Elvis gay, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. quoted the following statement verbatim made by User:Wyss from the Talk page User:Wyss archived yesterday.:
  • "Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams... "

RESPONSE:

• Note that The Guardian newspaper opens their comments on the Gavin Lambert book on Natalie Wood by reminding readers it is "high-class gossip." Newspapers do review gossip books, but no Encyclopedia ever references them. However, I find it interesting that while there is a direct quote about Nick Adams asserted to be from the book, neither User:Wyss nor User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. bothered to state that the quote was made as offhand gossip without facts of any kind and with respect to Elvis Presley, did not mention the following from page 119:

Correction, I have referred to this as a passing remark many, many times. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• "Nick Adams, who happened to be in New York that week, had recently managed to ingratiate himself with Elvis Presley. He told Natalie (Wood) that the singer wanted to know if he might ask his favorite actress for a date. "Natalie was all shook up after Presley called and asked her to go out with him when she got back to Los Angeles" -- From page 119 of Natalie Wood: A Life (2004) by Gavin Lambert

Fine. This is a another quote from the book. It proves that Adams was keenly interested to be a close friend to Elvis, and that Natalie Wood was Elvis's favorite actress. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATES:

• "Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays (1996) and William J. Mann's Behind the Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped Hollywood 1910-1969 (2001), claim that before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. This is related to similar rumours about James Dean who is claimed to have been involved in this with Adams."

RESPONSE:

• First, the last line in this paragraph is POV and rumor which is not acceptable in Misplaced Pages. This sentence is only there to aid the fabrication that Adams was gay.

These rumors exist. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Correction, it is acceptable to mention published rumours in Misplaced Pages, if only to debunk them. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong with including this stuff in the "Rumors" section? Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Please quote the Misplaced Pages:Policy that states we can quote rumors because it contradicts Misplaced Pages:The perfect article that, among other things, states :

reflects expert knowledge; fact-based and rooted in sound scholarly and logical principles.

There are independent sources supporting these rumors. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Second, The claim as to a statement about Nick Adams in the book: Behind the Screen: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped Hollywood, 1910-1969 by William J. Mann is a total fabrication, Nick Adams is not listed in the Index

O.K. The reference to this source should be deleted. However, there are several other sources supporting the fact that Adams was gay.

Given the above book reference fabrication, the claim as to a statement about Nick Adams in the book: Hollywood Gays (1996) by Boze Hadleigh is dubious. The index lists Adams once on page 250 but that same index lists dozens of other heterosexual people. Nonetheless, quoting a book such as this is not acceptable at Misplaced Pages when peer reviews call it gossip and cocktail-party repartee and whose choice of subjects are conveniently for legal purposes, all dead. And, another says: Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect.

Nevertheless, I agree that unsupported gossip like this is in effect unacceptable as a source for the article's narrative. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The Publishers Weekly review said:

• Hadleigh who's evidently taking up where the great gossip columnists of yesteryear left off.
• There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased.
• Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation.

From Library Journal:

• Like his earlier volumes, Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed.

- Ted Wilkes 15:11, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Although we may differ on minor items of detail, I endorse this analysis 100%. Wyss 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You should also cite the positive passages of these and other reviews of Hadleigh's book:

"A series of 10 interviews with dramatic actors, romantic heros, comedians, and performers, three of whom died of AIDS; all prominent in the Hollywood/entertainment scene. The interviews are by turns frank, and depending on the comfort level of the interviewee, evasive and suggestive. Prominent features of the interviews include Hollywood's various constructions of masculinity, efforts to mask gay realities, studio response to homosexuality, and discussion of gay relationships. Many interviews include commentary on Hollywood figures not themselves in this collection. Each interview is preceded by a biographical sketch including relationship information and usually comments by friends and acquaintances. Index to persons mentioned in the interviews concludes the work." (Gays and Lesbians: Reference and Bibliographical Resources Annotated")

"In this collection of interviews, each preceded by a chatty introduction, that Hadleigh has conducted over the years with 10 Hollywood stars, the author continues his probing of the ever-popular topic of the sexual proclivities of Hollywood actors. There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased. And though hearing about these stars in their own words often proves entertaining, most of the book's gay readership will find little here they haven't heard before. Two exceptions are the touching interview with producer David Lewis, who talks freely about his longtime companion, James Whale (director of the classic 1931 Frankenstein and of The Invisible Man), who committed suicide in 1957; and the talk with William Haines, whose career was destroyed by Louis B. Mayer after he was caught with another man in his cot at a YMCA. The book's style is suitably straightforward, though Hadleigh's banter often verges on the cute or leering. Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation." (Publishers Weekly)

"Hadleigh ... seeks to provide firsthand reports. An entertainment journalist since the 1960s, he conducted volumes of off-the-record interviews with celebrities reputed to be gay or bisexual such as Cary Grant, Paul Lynde, and Anthony Perkins, as well as less well-remembered actors like Randolph Scott and William Haines. In these interviews, often given only with the understanding that they would not be published during the star's life, Hadleigh attempts to get normally secretive actors to speak about their sexual lives. .... Cary Grant and Anthony Perkins ... proffer revelations about co-workers and peers. Like his earlier volumes Conversations with My Elders (St. Martin's, 1988) and Lesbians in Hollywood (Baricade, 1994), Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed. Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." (Library Journal) Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATES:

• 1) In 1972, gay actor Sal Mineo said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean (although moments later Mineo may have hinted that many of these stories about Hollywood gays were exaggerated).

RESPONSE to 1):

• This is hearsay and not acceptable in Misplaced Pages under any circumstances. Ted Wilkes 12:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Note: A half dozen "hearsay" interviews from a half dozen different sources, all accepted by historical peer review because of the participants' reputations and the historical consistancy of their remarks, would generate citable and workable secondary sources. On the other hand, a single isolated interview such as this one, given both the problematic nature of its content, lack of detail or historical support and the rather discredited reputation of the author who published it, make it meaningless as a source and therefore unacceptable. So I agree with the conclusion and endorse it, but get there in a slightly different way. Wyss 14:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Are you able to present peer-reviewed sources concerning the life of Nick Adams? I am sure, the sources you have used are all tabloid publications. Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• 2) Given Adams' widely known (and sometimes salaried) friendship with Elvis Presley, David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams, matching similar claims by Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any rumours that Adams was homosexual.

RESPONSE to 2):

• The first sentence is illiterate and friendship has nothing to do with homosexuality. Before quoting any source, the person inserting it into the article must satisfy themselves as to the academic/journalistic integrity of the source. Bret's book was never subjected to peer reviews, a fundamental requirement for insertion into wikipedia. (See also above comments from a peer review on a gossip book by writer Boze Hadleigh and The Guardian warnings about Gavin Lambert's gossip book -- refer also to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Dubious sources). Even though User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. substantially watered down the Misplaced Pages article on David Bret, it nonetheless still shows he is a gossip writer with unknown academic credentials noted for a lack of research and numerous factual errors in his books. Misplaced Pages does not publish gossip or reference such unreliable sources. The same thing applies to quoting Dee Presley. (See: Talk:Elvis Presley) Adding, "however there are no court records, contemporary letters etc. is improper and a word game. That is like saying "John Doe" is a pedophile but there are no court records, contemporary letters etc. Ted Wilkes 12:24, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Query: Are there any authors writing on Hollywood stars who are not gossip book writers? Onefortyone 19:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You know there are. Wyss 19:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The only source not written by gossip book authors is the article by Professor Dr Wall, but he has not written about Nick Adams's sexual preferences. Are there any other sources of this kind? Onefortyone 19:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Again, you know there are, and you also know there is zero documented evidence that NA was gay. Never mind that, we can keep the gossip in the rumours section as far as I'm concerned or care, it's helpful debunking. Wyss 19:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is a quote from Bret's book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2001) (p. 19):

"That Elvis was obsessed with James Dean during his formative years as an actor cannot be denied. ... He subsequently became involved with two of the late star's friends, Nick Adams and Natalie Wood. Adams, who since Jimmy's death had admitted that they had been lovers during the shooting of Giant, later claimed that he had had a brief affair with Elvis after Elvis had 'agreed to be his date' for a preview performance of his 1956 film, The Last Wagon."

Bret also mentions that Adams had sexual relationships with other men. Onefortyone 11:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is again the disputed passage which should be included in the "Rumors" section. I have removed the reference to Dee Presley. You may change the wording:

According to some sources, Adams had homosexual leanings. In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert writes, "Her first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams..." In 1972, gay actor Sal Mineo stated that Adams told him that he had a big affair with James Dean. David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2001) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to Adams to support the rumours that Adams was homosexual. Onefortyone 19:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The article still contains that information, in the rumours section as we'd previously agreed. Wyss 19:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Aside from claims of illiteracy, I endorse this summary. Wyss 13:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

When an article is in dispute, one needs to see the article to understand its text, structure etc. The issues have been placed on the talk page and no consensus reached. So, please don't alter the disputed text. Thank you for your cooperation. Ted Wilkes 18:33, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

And, Onefortyone/Anon is bacjk to his editing my (and others) comments as User:Wyss complained about thereby hindering the consensus process. Ted Wilkes 18:35, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Disputed Status

I have some comments.

• TW continues to misrepresent reversion numbers in his edit summaries. This is incredibly tiresome and boring. Readers are again reminded that TW has been blocked twice in the past for his own violations of 3rr.

• TW can use the article's history to refer to past versions.

• Meanwhile I think this article should reflect the source information as it evolves. Wyss 18:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

• Read first, comment later. I nerver claimed 3r rule, only the THIRD time.

And, we reflect nothing that you alone wants - we arrive at consensus. Thanks. Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Now, the 3R rule is in effect. Ted Wilkes 18:52, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you have much grasp on WP policy. This is not a personal attack, it's only my opinion and I apologize in advance if it seems confrontational. To make up for that appearance, if it has been given, and in the spirit of cooperation, which would include reasonable efforts to help you avoid embarassing yourself as you have so many times in the past, I'll defer, but I don't appreciate how you've reverted my careful work and am waiting for you to either state your dispute plainly or drop it. The rumours are characterized for what they are in the article and there is some evidence that the James Dean exploiting NA brought all this on himself forty years ago by shooting off his big lying mouth to Sal Mineo, who may not have even believed him. We are not here to protect anyone's reputation, but to report the documented record in an encyclopedic narrative. The NA article does this now (more helpfully so before you reverted it a second time). I see little basis for a dispute or a dispute tag. Wyss 19:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I already posted stuff above but Onefartyone/Anon violated (Again, and again, and again, the Energizer Bunny) Wiki policy and inserted signed/unsigned comments. Why don't you move them down to the bottom. BTW, like the User on your talk page asked, what is your first name? - Ted Wilkes 19:23, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

So why don't you restore it here, now? Why are you so curious about my first name? (Note to readers, he already knows it but is trying to distract the discussion away from the article) Wyss 19:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the disputed tag since no discussion surrounding it has taken place for several days. Further, I've updated the rumours section to make the context of the Sal Mineo interview (and its role in the subsequent rumours about NA) more clear. As always, discussion is welcome here on the talk page but please do not restore the disputed tag without immediately listing any disputed items here (thanks). Wyss 07:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No discussion, because, as I stated hwerein, it connects to Elvis Presley which took up virtually all our time. Today I removed:

• A bitter court battle for custody of his children (which he won because his wife was shown to have had an affair with another man) is said to have interfered with his ability to get lucrative acting parts after 1963.

The User:Onefortyone edit about his divorce and wife's affair with another man is a fabrication, distorted totally from thi non-encyclopedic article. The rest is Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel terms and needs to Misplaced Pages:Cite sources. Ted Wilkes 13:46, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

I removed the David Bret reference. It has already been established at talk:Elvis Presley in accordance with the established consensus achieved for C. A. Tripp and his book The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln, that David Bret and his gossip book on Presley or similar such books discredited by peer review does not meets the level of Misplaced Pages requirements for academic/journalistic integrity to be referenced in Misplaced Pages articles. I also inserted the ActiveDiscuss notice because the Sal Mineo reference is hearsay and is not encyclopedic and peer reviews of the other works clearly define them as "gossip" and "suspect," making them unacceptable as a Misplaced Pages reference. - Ted Wilkes 13:59, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like we simultaneously removed Bret. If Hadleigh can be fully discredited (and I think it's possible), we can do away with the rest, Mineo etc. I say this because all the rumours look like the reach back to Mineo and it's starting to look like he might not have even made the statement. I'm putting back the reference to his divorce. It was messy, acrimonious and expensive and the negative publicity does appear to have interfered with his career. I've seen it mentioned in "non gay canon" contexts. Wyss 14:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Er, note- 141/anon had been trying to spin it with the bit about NA's wife having an affair "with another man"... with the obvious single-agenda inuendo. Wyss 16:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

How did this get started anyway?

I've gotten to know a bit about our friend Nick Adams. He was a braggard. He habitually made up stories about his Hollywood experiences and associations. He consistently tried to capitalize on his friendship with James Dean. I suspect that someone (like Hadleigh or perhaps even someone before him) either twisted or "read too much into" Adams' endlessly repeated stories about his friendship with James Dean. With both of them dead by 1968, the rumours churned. The more I ponder the provenance of the Sal Mineo interview, the less comfortable I am with it. Hadleigh is widely criticized for making up his interviews, and this Mineo interview does seem to be the "ground zero" source of these rumours. At this point, the question for me is whether or not the article should play a debunking role or not bother to mention it at all, given the threadbare unreliability of the source. Wyss 14:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Adams never won physical custody (according to the True Crime non-encyclopedic source). His wife had custody, what he got was a tempory order against her boyfriend for abusive (verbal) conduct with his children. That order was immediately appealed and in the end, her custody was upheld. Crime magazine articles, by the way, are written by wannabe authors who are not paid but who accept the free internet publicly and can add it to their resumé. Their writrings have no credibility and are not peer reviewed. Note the blatant discrepancy in the article:

• "Nick was still in Japan when Carol was granted a divorce and custody of the children on Oct. 12." (1965)
• "On Nov. 26, 1966, Carol resumed divorce proceedings and obtained a restraining order against Nick."

- Ted Wilkes 16:41, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

CrimeLibrary is similar, some of it's reliable, some isn't- if one can't double or triple verify it from non-derivative sources, it's problematic. Anyway yeah, I've seen discrepencies on the divorce in other sources too. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I removed the other references as detailed by me above and as noted by User:Wyss. Similarly, quoting one bit of hearsay from Gavin Lambert is unacceptable in an encyclopedia. Note, Lambert is not in a position to speak for the studio head. His remark most likely comes from the gossip by Sal Mineo et all. Justifying hearsay by putting a "disclaimer" after it is not acceptable. Ted Wilkes 16:49, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm convinced Lambert got his info from stuff derived from the Mineo interview and didn't bother checking it out. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I also removed:

• "He met James Dean while working as an extra in a Coca-Cola commercial in Griffith Park." This needs a reliable source to be cited before being put back in. Based on an Internet Coca-Cola reference to James Dean and Griffith Park, someone may have made it up to fit their other stories. That Dean would associate with him was very unlikely as John Gilmore (writer) claimed. - Ted Wilkes 16:55, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

That's ok with me, I've seen it described as a Pepsi commercial, too, and I can't think of a non gay canon source that mentions it. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

About the Dundy paragraph, I'm truly only trying to make the words flow more easily (and I guess more NPoV). "Film insider"... so tabloidish (but I know you've been asserting her credentials against the flood of 141 inuendo etc). Wyss 17:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I'll have to go back to the library so I can quote properly, but the Dundy book says Adams friendship with Presley ended, and he was fired by Colonel Parker, when he made an ass of himself while working at one of Presley's concerts. Ted Wilkes 17:19, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like him, truth be told. Wyss 17:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

P.S. - Nick must be up (or down or wherever you believe in) loving this. He never got so much publicity in his life. Ted Wilkes 17:22, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yep! I've had the sensation that his self-promotion and "creative" talk have looped around through the decades to give him another boost. What would likely have remained an article stub here has grown into a true bio, with pictures and everything, even in his favourite "rebel" hat! Wyss 17:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

So looking at Hadleigh's weak credentials and dreadful reputation among revewiers again, the purported Mineo interview (which even as published was both hearsay and way hedged) seems weak to the point of... unreliability. 141/anon should be aware that my prior informal agreement with him was based on the assumption that the sources he cited had at least marginal encyclopedic notability. Now that I've become more familiar with both those sources and the available documentation on Nick Adams, I see zero basis for any mention of the rumours at all. Wyss 17:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I removed the assertion that he bought a blue Thunderbird to match Wood's pink one. According to the True Crime non-encyclopedic source it says:

• He even bought a black, convertible Ford Thunderbird.

As part of his image self-promotion, he would have bought a black T-Bird convertible to be seen in. Ted Wilkes 17:39, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

That does ring truer but it's minor trivia either way. Wyss 18:01, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this article, as there's lots of reverting going on but no discussion. Try discussing your changes and if you can't convince each other, take it to RfC. Once you've agreed, let me know or post a request for unprotection. --fvw* 23:52, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

The discussion is sufficient to fill a novel, literally. 141's cites have been thoroughly discredited on the Presley talk page, he is trying to edit by attrition. See his contrib history, his only interest is in skewing Google keyword searches to increase traffic to books by David Bret. RfC may be the only way now. Wyss 23:55, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Rumors section

The following passages should be included in the "Rumors" section:

In 1972 gay actor Sal Mineo, in response to a leading question, said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean. However, Adams was well-known in Hollywood for embellishing and inventing stories about his show business experiences and had long tried to capitalize on his association with James Dean. Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays (1996) claims that before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. This is related to similarly unsupported rumours about James Dean who is claimed to have been involved in this with Adams. However, Hadleigh has been criticized for pasting together interviews from other published sources or even making them up.

In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert, who was part of the gay Hollywood circles of the 1950s and 1960s, wrote that Wood's "first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams..." Given Adams' widely known (and sometimes salaried) friendship with Elvis Presley, David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2001) even claims that Adams himself stated that he had an affair with Elvis Presley. However, some readers criticize Bret's book for containing sloppily researched and sometimes invented material, and there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any rumors that Adams was homosexual. Onefortyone 12:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

No, the rumours are too unsupported and the sources cited so far are not credible (see the lengthy discussions above). The only reason it's mentioned in the James Dean article is that the rumours surrounding him are more widespread and someone wrote a direct (although unsupported) account along those lines. Wyss 16:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The rumors exist and are supported by several independent sources (books, articles, etc.) You cannot deny this fact. You and Ted Wilkes are the only Misplaced Pages users who try to suppress the facts provided by these sources. Onefortyone 23:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Removed "protected" tag

I've removed a "protected" tag that was on the article despite the article not being protected. --Tony Sidaway 17:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I deleted the bit about a "bitter custody" battle. This information comes from a questionable source and is extremely inconsistent in its presentation and with Adam's finances and references to him travelling to Japan. The reality of California divorce law c.1965 would make it impossible for him to have custody without proving beyond any doubt that his spouse was an unfit mother. Fathers simply didn't ever challenge for custody. That same article, from where the "custody" reference comes, states his wife had custody then he won it back, then she got them. That never happens. Period. In 1969, California was the first state to institute "no-fault" divorce, nevertheless archaic automatic custody for mothers remained unchanged. (See Bob Geldoff remarks on the subject at Fathers' rights.) Ted Wilkes 20:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Peter Guralnick confirms that Adams was a Hollywood hustler

Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick says Nick Adams was a Hollywood hustler (see ) and a close friend to Elvis. This is in line with Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays and this web biography of James Dean, which also state that Adams hustled during the 1950s. These statements also support the view that Nick Adams was gay.

Earl Greenwood, in his book The Boy who would be King (1990) confirms that Elvis and Adams had an affair:

On pages 284-86 it is clearly said that Nick Adams was Elvis's "persistent friend." They "shared a mutual enjoyment of prescription drugs," and "Nick became a regular at whatever house Elvis was renting." "Elvis still hated sleeping alone, and he grew close enough to Nick to ask him to stay over on nights he was feeling particularly blue but not up to a sexual confrontation with a woman." When he heard that his friend had died, "Elvis's immediate reaction was to sit on the steps, frozen and mute, then his eyes welled with tears and his body shook, as he rocked himself back and forth, arms clutching his sides. Elvis was devastated and suffered through it for days. He sequestered himself upstairs and could be heard crying through the closed door. ... Elvis talked about how close they had been, particularly after a couple of foursomes, and admitted he had 'spurned' Nick's friendship later, saying he had needed 'room to breathe,' because Nick had wanted 'too much, ya know?'..." The author adds that "some pointed comments were made about the two of them years later by a disgruntled hand Elvis just fired..." "Regardless of any intimacies, Nick didn't kill himself over Elvis - it turned out he had a lot of demons haunting him. But Elvis beat himself over Nick's death for a long time." Onefortyone 12:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

You removed pool from the opening section, so I have reverted your edit as vandalism. Moreover, WP is an encyclopdia, not a gossip or tabloid magazine. Wyss 15:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

In his Elvis biography, the reputed author Peter Guralnick says that the twenty-five-year-old Nick Adams was a "Hollywood hustler". This is in line with similar remarks in Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays. See above. Therefore, I have reinstated the following paragraph:

In 1972 gay actor Sal Mineo, in response to a leading question, said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean. However, Adams was well-known in Hollywood for embellishing and inventing stories about his show business experiences and had long tried to capitalize on his association with James Dean. Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays (1996) claims that before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. This is related to similarly rumours about James Dean who is claimed to have been involved in this with Adams. In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert, who was part of the gay Hollywood circles of the 1950s and 1960s, wrote that Wood's "first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams..." Given Adams' widely known (and sometimes salaried) friendship with Elvis Presley, Earl Greenwood's book, The Boy who would be King (1990) and David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2001) even claim that Adams had an affair with Elvis Presley. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any rumors that Adams was homosexual. Onefortyone 11:28, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Retelling tabloid accounts is not encyclopedic. Wyss 16:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Further sources supporting the view that Adams had homosexual leanings

In 1950, after making a commercial, Adams and James Dean seem to have become lovers and worked the streets of Los Angeles as hustlers in the down and out days when both were struggling nobodies. Bill Dakota, Adams's friend and secretary since 1957, was told the story that Nick Adams and James Dean, who stayed with Adams, were once arguing about who would wear the one good pair of jeans they owned to go hustling.

In her autobiography, Rona Barrett says that Nick Adams "had become the companion to a group of salacious homosexuals."

See Crime Magazine: "Nick Adams: His Hollywood Life and Death", by Peter L. Winkler

Therefore, I have reinstated the rumors section, as we have now ten independent sources which prove that Adams was gay. Onefortyone 15:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Your use of the word proof is mistaken both in terms of scholarship and WP policy. Wyss 02:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

However there is a lot of information that suggests this is the case. That alone merits some mention in the article. We have stacks of people on Misplaced Pages who are referred to as possibly gay or homosexual, with no objections from anybody, and without anything like the discussion that Nick Adams has been subjected to. JackofOz 03:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The weaknesses of other articles shouldn't support putting gossip in this one. However, the problem here is deeper. 141 has been abusive in his edits to this article (following arbitration he is currently on probabation, barred from editing celebrity articles and seems to have already violated that probabtion). In the absence of 141's vandalistic behavior, I would have long ago supported (and did support) a qualified rumours section in the article. Sadly, 141 used this as an opportunity in an astonishingly persistent, attrition-based, months long attempt to leverage this article as a basis for seeding the Elvis Presley article with keywords implying EP was gay, apparently for the purpose of promoting a tabloid market book by David Brent. So long as abusive editors like 141 are actively abusing content, a much more wary approach to documentation and balance should be taken. Meanwhile since 141 appears to be violating his probabtion I think he should be blocked as per arbcom's decision. Wyss 03:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's a question of gossip per se. If it is a fact that his sexuality has been questioned/discussed/rumoured about for a very long time, and it is, then that fact merits some mention. That is simply saying what has actually happened, it doesn't take any position on his sexuality. We talk about the rumours of Tom Cruise's sexuality, and his legal actions about those rumours, while remaining NPOV. I wasn't involved in the issue about 141, however should we apply our writing policy differently in a given case just because of such a person? Seems like we'd become his intellectual hostages. JackofOz 03:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)