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Talk:Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee

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SWC's supposed approval

Re Zuroff, look at . Apparently, Bäckman wrote a very contorted letter to SWC, got back a form letter condemning Nazism as an ideology, and then performed synthesis to claim in his blog that SWC is supporting him. We'd need either SWC press release or an independent confirmation before claiming SWC is backing Safka regarding the seminar. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

In specific, Paju writes that Zuroff consulted Mark Rõbak regarding the book and Bäckman-Zuroff discussion, and as a result of discovering the deception, will no longer contact with Bäckman. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Considering that Bäckman's misrepresentation of Zuroff's position -- itself obtained by deception, as documented by Imbi Paju in the above-mentioned article -- may bring disrepute to Efraim Zuroff, an experienced hunter of Nazis and a living person, WP:BLP applies. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Bäckman and University of Helsinki

Reportedly, the University of Helsinki has made a statement asserting Bäckman's political views are his own and not the University's: . ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Colchicum's question

Offliner, how did you get here two hours after the article was created? Colchicum (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

External links

As far as I can tell, the Committee's only websites are blogs: Leena Hietanen, Johan Bäckman, collective. Should we link some of them under External links? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Tundra Tabloid's overview in English

While this is not itself an WP:RS, Tundra Tabloid has a reasonable overview of the events, in English, at . For understandable reasons, most of the news regarding Safka is in Finnish or Estonian, with occasional Russian and Swedish reports of larger activities. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You may want to link to this also: Putin-Jugend in Helsinki. The Finnish-Russian Civic Forum may also be notable in itself. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Is it RS? It looks like a blog. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 04:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
It is not signed, so I guess it represents to "official" position of the organization. The Finnish-Russian Civic Forum can hardly be regarded as "pro-Russian", it is definetly "anti-Putin" and possibly "pro-Chechen". It is headed by Heidi Hautala, the target of Bäckmans earlier "attack-book", Finland washed with Anna Politkovskaya's blood. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
P.S. - The article has been reprinted by La Russophobe: see NASHI in Finland

"Commitee" is a publicity stunt

This "Committee" is a project of three persons (Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn). This is NOT a real organization. This article is under deletion in Finnish Misplaced Pages and will probably be deleted by 30th March. Background: "Committee" was formed by Bäckman and his blog writings . Bäckman met a couple of same thinking persons (Hietanen, Krohn and later Tammi) and they decided to maximize their media coverage. This "Committee" is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Peltimikko (talk) 19:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. However, we can't discuss the people in their own articles -- none of them is notable enough for that. We used to have an article for Bäckman, and after discussion, it was deleted. The remaining two have even less to their individual names than Bäckman.
Since their collective notability (and quite a bit of news coverage) stems from this publicity stunt, it makes sense to have an article for said stunt -- and since it claims to be an organisation, the most intuitive name for such an article is that organisation's name. However, maybe a better, more descriptive name could be used. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Thank you User:Peltimikko for uploading most of the images in Commons:Category:Nashi demonstrations. I have difficulty following your logic though. I seems that you either 1) consider the activities of the Committee notable, as you have provided so much media, or 2) you were a participant in the counter-counter demonstrations organized by Suomen Sisu, and would oppose anything the Committee does, making you an involved party. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
There is no Committee. Only a couple of people who need their daily media coverage. I already started article of Johan Bäckman, maybe the rest of the gang will follow later. Peltimikko (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
But it's the same thing. What do you think other committees are?
As for the article on Bäckman, I don't think it will be able to withstand another AFD. Bäckman might have printed another book, but it's not any less SELFPUB this time.
In Estonia, there is an old man who's published four books. He had to self-publish them, because no publisher would take them seriously. Fascinating bloke. His latest book tells all about how physicists got it wrong, and how the perpetuum mobile should really be made. But his speciality is economics; apparently he's the first person ever to discover that money can not be borrowed. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 21:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
You're a member of this Committee. Who are you to tell anybody about conflicts of interest? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
And people had best be quite careful for WP:BLP violations, because I will be watching this page very, very closely. Also, Peltimikko, you realise that Johan Bäckman is totally unsourced? That is unacceptable on a WP:BLP article - that needs to be fixed. --Russavia 06:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Considering your track record, why do you think it is notable that you'll be reading this interesting page? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 06:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Well it seems not only does one have to keep an eye on Digwuren for attacking other editors on talk pages, but they also have to keep an eye on his edit summaries too. --Russavia 06:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I present you the Pigcam. The wild hogs and their piglets most often show up around the nightfall. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 07:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The first pigs of tonight have arrived. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 17:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on the concerns mentioned above, I'm expressing my opposition to such a split. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I oppose such a split too, the individual members are simply not notable enough. The article is about the committee, not the individuals. Martintg (talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"Neo-stalinist"

The committee has not declared itself "neo-stalinist." The neo-stalinism claim is not a fact, but an opinion of one Estonian journalist. Also, it does not "specialize in justifying stalinism" - this again is only an opionion by an Estonian journalist. Offliner (talk) 10:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Have an alternative secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent and independent of the subject that states otherwise? Martintg (talk) 10:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
If you prefer to research this matter in an original manner, check out the criteria for Neo-Stalinism. They're pretty simple to understand. Then, compare them against the public positions of the Committee.
The experience could be enlightening. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 11:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Basic Misplaced Pages policy requires that you attribute such claims to their source. So please replace "it is a neo-stalinist organization" with "according to Estonian journalist XY, the organization is neo-stalinist." Offliner (talk) 12:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
That's an absurd request. Why "Estonian journalist"? Why not "Blue-eyed baldy"? Why not "Male forgetful news person"? Why not "Whitebread liberal media representative"? All of these classifications violate both WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. As for attribution, we'll always have <ref>. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Tammi is not a member

Tammi is not a member of the committee, so please remove his name from the lead. Offliner (talk) 10:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

What is your source for this information? Martintg (talk) 10:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The cited source clearly says that Tammi is "joined" with the Committee. Do you have any contrary source? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 11:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Which source? Could you provide a citation? I haven't seen any indication that he is a member of the committee, just that he "joined" the group of protesters on that day. Offliner (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
What's your source? I'd gladly review it to clean up this misunderstanding. My source is listed in the article. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Tammi is not a member, and the most of the Finnish media didn't even published his anti-Estonian opinions in "Nashi-demonstration" in March 2009 in Helsinki. Tammi joined very late with his two friends to demonstration. News releases of demonstrations were writen/lead by Bäckman (in the name of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee) and they were signed by Bäckman, Hietanen and Krohn. ( read: MANIFEST OF ANTIFASCISTS IN HELSINKI 23.03.2009) Peltimikko (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed some speculations of Tammi. Tammi gave couple of interviews, claiming he was a former KGB agent. Nobody have not even taking these talks seriously. At least, I have not seen any articles where someone has actually investigated Tammi's claims. Tammi just wants his 15 minutes of fame (again). Peltimikko (talk) 20:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says Tammi is a wannabe KGB agent? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 21:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Some Russian language sources

Here are some Russian language sources with translations:

...and Estonian

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

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