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Article Start
Ok, I have made a START but there is a lot more I have to go through from the history of these bands and to add references. I just need some time. These disambiguated articles don't have to be written in a single day. Emerman 22:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Jajouka/Joujouka split
Having reached the point where the single page on the MMoJ was split into 2 (Joujouka and Jajouka), what is the point of a third page: Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar? As far as I can make out, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar and Master Musicians of Jajouka are about the same musicians. Jonur 16:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I agree and have redirected to avoid having to retype everything twice. The page was needed but only as a redirect. Emerman 11:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Emer/Opiumjones 23 dispute
Us=er Emer man has misrepresented emails that have been sent. Sherken was a musicians not Sidi Achmed Schich for a start. howevr see below interesting news re Master Musicians of Joujouka and this wikipedia spat. I also think that Joujouka/ Bachir have been very well known as being not the same group since Bachir calme back from New York with a record deal? I may be wrong but I will check. The footnoting really does need to be improved on these pages and I think some important links that emerman has edited should go back in. Perhaps someone other than Emermanb could have a look at this?? <--(unsigned message was contributed by Opiumjones 23.)
- I did not misrepresent any email. I did not understand what you were saying, and I said so, because you wrote me confusing and cryptic questions you said I should look up (I think you used the word "riddle") such as "who was 'Sherk'?" How would I know who he was if you won't tell me? I asked you and you did not answer. I thought you were talking about the saint Sheikh, sometimes spelled Sherkh in some articles. you were totally unclear to me in your emails and I was not sure what you meant. Please give me credit for good faith: I certainly thought that's what you were talking about. You didn't answer your question. Could you please tell me who Sherken was? I asked you several times who your band members are and I asked you who it was you referred to had led the group prior to Abdesalam Attar. Please stop accusing me of things I haven't done like bad faith. I tried in good faith to establish contact with you. When I asked you for sources you did not help me. You told me to go look at old message board flamewars at the jajouka site and said something about Hamri being related to Sherk. But it's not about whether hamri was related to a musician. He was related on his mother's side, and did not grow up as a master musician nor did he claim to be one. He claimed to be a painter, which is what he is listed as. Not Hamri, the musician, but Hamri, the painter.
- I have asked repeatedly for people to help me with footnoting. And the moving to References style was done in good faith too. I didn't realize they had moved to preferring footnote style because when I used to edit some people used to say in the style discussions that footnote jump links were hard to read and made people move up and down the page. I totally agree with you we need to get the footnotes in there. As for using Clandermond for a footnote though, nobody but people buying it from your boutique can find that so could you please submit the quote and page number whatever you quoted from there is from to help us verify it?
Master Musicians of Joujouka artists on 1971 release
User Svest Admin on this page has been emailed scans of the sleave notes including artist credits for Master Musicians of Joujouka Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records 1971.
The Lp was recorded in 1967 and released in 1971.That puts Emermans assertion that the group can't include this disc in their discography in a different light.
Furthermore and much more importantly it proves that the name was being used by a Hamri group nearly 30 years before Emermans credited date of "forming" in the MMOJoujouka article.
In light of just this several of Emermans "facts" will have to be changed across all the pages he has been editing. See discussion page Master Musicians of Joujouka for context if new to this! User:Opiumjones 23 02:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
- Could you please explain what you are talking about? What fact have I written that you say is incorrect?
- I also asked you for copies of liner notes. What is Hamri's role shown in the liner notes you emailed to Szvest? (Update: I've since ordered the album and have a copy now.)
- Evidently it appears Stephen Davis believed Bachir Attar led the group of the father's musicians in pages 504 - 505 and were the new generation, and so did Mick Jagger in that section of Old Gods Almost Dead, biography of the Stones, that I learned about from one of your webpages in the past and the Point Music people did too.
- As far as saying the 1960s recordings are work that belongs in the discography of a 1995 recording group, I've mainly seen your Hamri/joujouka website PDF and an article by someone involved in the Sufi album as source info reflecting this, so I hope you could direct us to additional info sources as well not as affiliated with you, for strong info. And, I had no idea what you meant by "Sherk" or Sherken in the email and did my best to guess, thought it was the saint. Emerman 05:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
RE: Hamri managing separate group and timetable footnotes help needed
Since we're going to work on footnoting everything, I know there was a separate group in the 1980s after the death of Bachir Attar's dad as there was a bit of a power vaccum lasting until an early 1990s reunion of the factions. There seemed to be another faction when Hamri produced his album in 1995.
Clarify the issues in dispute please
The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'
I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.
This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims? This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.
The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.
My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.
I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. I'd also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such as Master Musicians of Jajouka and The Master Musicians of Joujouka and even Jajouka Tuathal 00:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Reference notation re: primary sources affiliated with party and re: reliability
- Campion, Chris (August 1995). "Night Spirit Masters", "The Wire".
Jonur, This item you placed in the reading list above is an article by a person employed on one of the Sub Rosa recordings by MMOJ, Sufi. Check issue of "primary sources" and reliable third-party sources and authors not related to either party necessary for contentious subjects; that one doesn't seem good for footnotes. But it's up to you.Emerman 06:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Emerman. A net search suggest that there is a journalist called Chris Campion who covers music. Following the Campion article in The Wire, that same magazine published an article by Lee Ranaldo, plus a note about the dispute between the musicians. It would appear that they ran the Ranaldo article for editorial balance. Since the Ranaldo article is contained in the Further Reading list, then it would be biased to omit the article it was apparently answering. To leave in Ranaldo but omit Campion is to tell only one side of the story. Jonur 08:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- (Later) Regarding Chris Campion, I find he is credited with design work on the "Sufi" album from Sub Rosa records. I find he is also a journalist specialised in music, with articles published in the Daily Telegraph, The Guardian and the Observer (all UK publications). There is an actor with the same name, but it is not the same person. So, we are dealing with a professional journalist. The fact that he contributed some design work to a particular album is not a valid reason for ignoring everything he has to say. In particular, your claim that he is an "employee" of Sub Rosa is ridiculous. One might argue that Brion Gysin was an "employee" of Rolling Stone Records because he contributed sleeve notes to the "Brian Jones presents" album. For these reasons, plus the editorial balance factor I mentioned above, I believe that Campion is a valid source. Jonur 12:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have a copy of it or can you point us to one online? Here in an article history by The Wire they mention a problem with the article not mentioning two band spellings and I think other issues.
- Mr. Campion wrote an article, but that doesn't mean it is appropriate in this particular article just because he writes or is a journalist in addition to helping the Master Musicians of Joujouka group recording on Sufi and same if this were regarding the other group.
- I would be glad to use his articles on other subjects than one related to a subject he's affiliated with in an contentious article setting, but do as you prefer. It's a judgment call. It would be helpful to get additional sources.
- An example of a source I find to be an appropriate one for the article history info is the liner notes copyrighted in 1964 for Pipes of Pan, written by Brion Gysin, where he mentions Lupercalia, Bou Jeloud, and how Hamri helped introduce him to the jajouka scene. I am sure you would agree that's a good one.
- Emerman. Not fair! Dads aren't allowed to play! :-)
- I have checked the Misplaced Pages rules about sources. The rule is that the Misplaced Pages article must be unbiased. However, sources may be biased (sometimes, the only available sources on a topic are biased, and you have to make do). Just because a source is POV does not mean it is all lies. What is important is to use what hard information one can get (for example, a verbatim quote, a sequence of events with their corresponding dates) while bearing the writer's bias in mind.
- That said, I would like to discuss the Campion article (I am in a good position to do so as I have a physical copy of that issue of The Wire - you are lucky to have access to a good library - I bought the thing on abebooks). Firstly, the article is not so POV as you fear. In fact, it mentions the existence of two rival groups of musicians - something that many profiles of the Bachir faction fail to do. The history page of The Wire which you referred to says that Campion failed to tell them there were two groups. Maybe he didn't tell them verbally, but it is crystal clear in the article itself:
- In spite of this there is currently some confusion as to the identity of the real Master Musicians of Joujouka. The group which toured the UK recently isn't the same one that appears on Joujouka Black Eyes. The former is lead (sic) by Bachir Attar, and also claims to have the endorsement of the King of Morocco. Bachir, who has appeared on two Bill Laswell-produced, Joujouka-related albums, Apocalypse across the Sky (Axiom) and The Next Dream (CMP), also played on the album that resulted from Brian Jones's numerous trips to Morocco Brian Jones Presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka. that was in 1968, when Bachir's father was leader of the village, a title now claimed by Bachir, who takes issue with Hamri's 'administration' of The Master Musicians. According to Rory Johnston at Point New York, the label that has just reissued the Brian Jones album, the split between Bachir and Hamri is "a classic artist/manager dispute". Which goes to show that 4000 year old North African trance music ensembles are as prone to logistical in-fighting as Western rock groups
- Whatever the veracities and outcome of this particular local difficulty (which is documented in the book Joujouka Rolling Stone written by Stephen Davies, the author of the notorious Led Zeppelin biography Hammer of the Gods), Hamrí's house remains a focal point for many musicians in Joujouka
- Conclusion: though focusing on the Joujouka faction chaired by Hamri, the article does mention the Bachir faction's existence, its albums, and its recent UK tour. Not so POV as you feared.
- Moreover, the quote from Rory Johnston at Point is very interesting (remember, Point reissued the Brian Jones album in such a way as to write Hamri out of the picture - i.e. adopting Bachir's agenda).
- I can send you a scan of the entire article if you wish. Jonur 23:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Emerman. Since this is not the first time you have said goodbye forever, I won't bid you farewell since I'm sure you'll be back. I am fascinated to see you can write nearly 5000 words in response to a few hundred. By writing so much, you make it very difficult for anyone else to come in and get a picture of the issues.
- You seem to have formed a very definite opinion of the Joujouka/Jajouka history, and are not willing to listen to anything that might contradict it. For example, no matter what you may say about Campion's POV, it is doubtful that he invented the quote from Johnston of Point -and that makes it clear that Hamri was the manager of the musicians until he and Bachir had a dispute. Moreover, Point was working with Bachir so, if anything, they would be "pro-Bachir" and "anti-Hamri". If Hamri was just a painter from way back, why would Point mention him at all?
- The fact is that Hamri played a vital role in bringing Joujouka to the world, initially and on a continuing basis until shortly before his death. This will all be documented. You apparently have access to a good library. I do not. In fact, I do not live in the English-speaking world so the libraries available to me would be relatively useless. For your information, The Wire (magazine) is a leading UK publication on music, with an excellent reputation. It even has its own Misplaced Pages entry. How I got the copy is irrelevant. You have to resort to petty little arguments about where I obtained the magazine because you don't want to consider what it says. Very sad!
- Time will tell which of us is ingenuous. Take it easy. Don't bust a gut. Life's too short. Jonur 15:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- Jonur, while I do not feel confident about info in the Campion article for several reasons I have mentioned in the past and can repeat again if needed. I'd like to have a copy eventually. Meanwhile, I read a couple of interesting pieces by Christgau and Schuyler today that I hadn't seen before. When I have time to process all of that I will be thinking about all the article footnoting some more. As wearing as all this is I am learning a lot now. I think I'd like to see the Campion thing for sure, but I have a feeling I can find some other things that will be even better and not "pro"- B.A. etc. In general I think none of this stuff was worth my worrying about, the more I read. P.S. I previously misread the Ranaldo article and have no problem with it now. Emerman 03:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you need me to try to forward you reading list passages or articles you can't get, I have updated my email address in wikipedia if you send me a note through the web mail. I might decide to send articles if I can scan any. If I can't get anything copied for you I will skip bothering you with an email reply. I'm about to return what I had checked out before it's overdue. The 1971 Rolling Stone microfilm I have is very hard to read and would likely not photograph well unfortunately. I wish you could get that at a library for general info. Emerman 03:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Emerman 21:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC) ]
no stone unturned article
this article is two pages the link to the second page is at the bottom. The second page continues with an interview with Bachir Attar and Frank Ryne re the controversy surrounding the re release of the Brain jones presents the pipes of Pan at Joujouka/Jajouka record. plus other details. make sure you go to page 2 too —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
group members
i am saddened to see that several deseased people are listed as current members in the group info. please update! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
- I am trying to correct the current and former group members based on information from the All Music Guide. If anyone can furhter assist in accurate information about the musicians, please do so. Thank you. - cgilbert 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
b class removed as article pov oin total dispute
removed incorrect category as the article is still in total dispute —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
- You actually removed the whole WPBiography banner. I have since replaced it but modified the class rating to Start instead of B. Please do not remove this banner in the future. Thank you. - cgilbert 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Libelous and Slanderous links to a Brink.com interview."
Recently, someone has vandalized the Bachir Attar page on Misplaced Pages and changed the name of his group to Joujouka. And most unfortunately, Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose have libeled and slandered Paul Bowles and friends of Paul Bowles in their Brink.com interview. This is not to be taken as fact, and if that were the case, anyone can make up slanderous statements and post them as gospel truth. Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose have been attacking Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka for years, and they have recently taken to libel and slander living friends of Paul Bowles, falsely accusing them of condoning and/or participating in the sexual exploitation of children. This is sleaze "journalism" at its very worst. Poor Paul Bowles has also been portrayed as a murderer, child molestor and worse by this duo, and it is not proven. The onus of proof is on them, and until that is settled one way or another, Misplaced Pages should keep the Brink.com links off Misplaced Pages as it is mere heresay and accusations by Rynne/Ambrose. Meanwhile, will some administrator kindly revert the Bachir Attar article to what it was before someone completely vandalised that? Thanks. Unfortunately, any person can vandalize on Misplaced Pages, but libel and slander are not to be tolerated according to Misplaced Pages's terms of use.BKLisenbee
- Libel concerns and slandering aside, personally speaking, i am against using the Brink.com links. Brink.com is not notable enough. The website declares itself as a "group of companies is a bite size conglomorate of entertainment companies"! You do the math. However, i am also concerned by the massive sockpuppetry and block evasion in all related articles. -- FayssalF - 18:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Article protected
I've just protected this article and a few other related articles as per the mediation process going on at User:FayssalF/JK. Thanks for your understanding. -- FayssalF - 15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
the group represented by this article does not exist it is the other link Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar that this page represents.
There is no such group only Master Musicians of Joujouka and Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The formerthe musicians of the village the latter a solo commercial group . Move to redirect User:Opiumjones 23 23:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose move, and it would have been nice if you had properly started the discussion here using the template available at WP:RM. I don't understand the "at the other link" claims, but this article seems fairly well documented. Please see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions and make whatever arguements are appropriate for that if you want serious consideration of the requested move. Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
pls explain your opposition. This page is for Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar that is the correct title!!
User:Opiumjones 23 (talk) 15:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Contested move request
The following request to move a page has been added to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM. —Dekimasuよ! 00:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Keep at Master Musicians of Jajouka. I'm unconvinced by this argument and support keeping one article for both groups, which describes the differences between the two current groups, as well as the split. By the way, please sign all posts by adding four tildes after your post. Badagnani (talk) 23:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The Master Musicians of Joujouka were also released as Master Musicians of Jajouka in 1972. The group led by Bachir Attar called Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar who for the purpose of wiki google searches prefer to be known as Master Musicians of Jajouka though all their records come out as Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar are a new seperate group..
Master Musicians of Joujouka are a seperate entity though Bachir Attar was a member in his youth.
User:Opiumjones 23 (talk) 00:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Discussion Moved to Mediation at User:FayssalF/JK
Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Claims by the group
I am a Moroccan-American who grew up in Morocco (I also happen to be a musician and a drummer more specifically) and I can attest that this music is no different in beats/music composition than a number of other "musics" from the North of Morocco. I am not here to attack the music or the group but I take offense at a lot of unverified content listed on this page, which I am sure is purely a PR/marketing rethoric used to mistify this group and futher their commercial appeal, by that I am talking about the ties to the Royal family, and alleged roots going back too long back in history to make any sense -among many other things-.
"Most people who live in Jajouka are members of the Ahl Sherif tribe, which means "the Saintly." The Attar clan of Jajouka is the founding family of the village and keepers of one of the oldest and most unique surviving musical traditions. The music and secrets of Jajouka have been passed down through generations from father to son, by some accounts for as long as 4000 years" that fact itself doesn't make any sense as the "Attar" and the "Ahl Sherif" names are clearly Arabic names and "Sherif" actually means "noble" and is used to denote families who can trace their ancestry to the Prophet Mohamed who was born in 570 AD in Mecca, present day Saudi Arabia........
Another one of my points; a number of the songs that I've heard from this group are mostly in Arabic, as such, how can they claim to be 4000 years old, and we know Morocco didn't come into contact with Arabic until the Islamic conquests in the 700s, furthermore, some of those songs have a religious sufi theme which again, emerged in the East (Persia and beyong) in the 1300s and probably did not get to Morocco until later.....