Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ohconfucius (talk | contribs) at 01:49, 6 April 2009 (new archive). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is an archive of past discussions on Misplaced Pages:Date formatting and linking poll. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Vandalism by Ohconfucius

For about two hours, almost a day ago, Ohconfucius spent his time vandalizing this page:

• Blanking the protest against format recorded above.
  • 01:40 30 March, as all of these
  • 01:43
  • 02:47
  • 02:48
• Breaking up a !vote
  • 02:24
• Blanking comments
  • 01:42
  • 01:43

Recommendations for how to deal with this? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• The only true disruption to Misplaced Pages was your slapping {disputed} tags on an ongoing RfC. False accusations that others are vandalizing Misplaced Pages is an actionable offense (with ample remedies) so I advise you to not be quite so bold in your attacks on other editors. Greg L (talk) 01:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I ask that Pmanderson remove "vandalism" from the section header. This is a bad-faith accusation. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Do you assert that none of these diffs, which include splitting a !vote, are vandalism? You are free to argue that case eelsewhere. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Disagreement about WP-internal process is not vandalism. See WP:VAND#NOT, last line of table. --Hans Adler (talk) 02:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
        • Blanking can be vandalism. Manipulating other people's posts, as with this edit, is.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • • Of the diffs you provided, only 01:42 could potentially be vandalism. I don't believe any are, but I'll stop short of making a bad-faith accusation. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
            • Please explain why 02;24, which is refactoring in such a way as to change meaning, is not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
              • I think you've reversed the burden of proof. CRGreathouse (t | c) 12:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
                • No. I've presented evidence that Ohconfucius has vandalized a vote, and blanked comments, and gotten no substantive response whatever. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm Confused...

I have never voted on Misplaced Pages before, however I cannot access any other pages except help articles and this. Hence, when I noticed the topic I was only looking for SIMPLE INFO. In other words, I just wanted THE FACTS AND OPTIONS IN SIMPLE TERMS. Not "hick/idiot" terms, mind you, just the basic facts and options for the common man.

However, I got none of this - and even more confused. The suggestions and comments don't help, as they are all made by people who know more technical terms in regard to this site and its inner workings than I ever will.

I am merely an editor and reader - I do not use programs to revert edits, nor do I use them to MAKE edits; I merely go into an article, make my edits, and leave.

Hence, I wish to request a SIMPLE explanation of the issue at hand and the options. I know it regards the formatting of the dates seen in articles and Infoboxes...maybe. My point is, I request a "simple" version of this and future polls for those who know of the subject (and those who don't) and don't know Misplaced Pages's technical terms, not wishing to look through scores of help articles only to result in more confusion. Daniel Benfield (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I'm permitted to do that. Please ask Ryan. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will try to explain this the best I can:

Misplaced Pages operates a system of autoformatting, which means that dates can be formatted to look a certain way to registered editors who set their preferences. There are four formats (first of Jan 2000 used as example): January 1, 2000; 1 January 2000; 2000 January 1; and 2000-01-01. These dates are autoformatted through markup; that is, the dates used for autoformatting text are marked up with some sort of syntax. The current autoformatting markup is the double square brackets, which are used to wikilink text. In recent months, many have complained that the usage of linking as markup is harmful because of overlinking resulting from the fact that date links often have little to do with the articles that they are linked on. This led to the practice of date linking being deprecated in August. Users began to remove date links (and therefore remove date autoformatting) through a variety of methods. However, some have complained that there was not enough consensus to deprecate autoformatting or to even remove date links. Previous date polls have established that using links to autoformat text is not a widely supported practice. This poll aims to 1) establish whether autoformatting is desirable at all; and 2) determine how often dates should be linked, regardless of autoformatting.

I hope that helped. Please feel free to ask more questions. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't have much objection to that, although "many" is probably an overstatement, and there is considerable disagreement as to what was agreed to in August, and whether there were more than 4 editors who agreed at that time. There have also been bots written to rapidly delink dates, assuming that no "date fragment" should be linked, except from articles on other date fragments.

Still, the first part has to do with the concept of autoformatting, rather than the current implementation(s). {#dateformat was added while the poll was being constructed.)

The second and third parts have to do with the rules for links to date fragments, years, such as 1919, and month-day combindations such as March 1. Due to the previous consensus that autoformatting and autolinking was done on full dates, there are a lot of linked dates. Many editors think there are too many such links, but there have been various changes made to WP:MOSDATE and WP:LINKING without consensus. There have also been at least 3 RfCs (Misplaced Pages:Request for Comments) on date linking, none of which has a consensus as to the consequences of the results. There also have been a couple of user RfCs, and a Request for Arbitration. One of the proposals was that ArbComm draft an RfC which would decide consensus. This is Ryan's attempt to put one together.

Does that seem a neutral description of the problem? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks, I appreciate that. I've already voted, if I understand the arguments correctly. Daniel Benfield (talk) 01:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
• Sorry, but "... on date linking, none of which has a consensus as to the consequences of the results" is incorrect. Have a careful read of the comments here and perhaps try to work into your future posts reasoning based on the fact that over 94% of respondents at that RfC had serious reservations with the linking of dates. Please don't reply too rapidly as it will take you some time to properly read the comments there (you can also examine a summary here).  HWV258  01:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• There may be consensus against linking all dates, although there is considerably more support for it here. The poll HWV258 cites is an attack on a straw man, posted by a user who began by voting against his own proposal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• I can only reiterate that anyone interested in this should have a careful read down the list of comments posted by the 94% of oppose respondents (here). Even detached from the poll question, those comments are illuminating, and undeniable.  HWV258  03:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• we should link to dates, as to other words and phrases, when the link is useful to readers.
• Linking dates should stay as the exception, rather than the rule,
• Date links should not be treated any differently than other links.

These are some of the 94% which have serious reservations about linking all dates; decide for yourself if they sre reservations with the linking of any dates. Misrepresentations of this point grow tiresome. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• No, I refer to the multitude of comments along the lines: "Such links provide nothing useful to the reader, and only serve to confuse". Please read the entire list of oppose comments (here) and see if your views are still so strong (misrepresentations?). I agree that you will be tired though after reading the entire list of oppose comments. :-)  HWV258  04:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I have done so; such comments are less than 50% of the total; many oppose the idea of linking every date, which was the question asked. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There is an essay at Misplaced Pages:Why dates should not be linked, but that's already linked in the text. Dabomb's and Arthur's explanations above are clearer and more neutral than the existing explanation, and should be considered if the unfortunate plan of more RfC's is contemplated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:17, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Very good, PMA. Greg L (talk) 04:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

I've removed all threaded discussion from the support/oppose/neutral columns on the poll page. I've left discussion in the comments section for now because I feel it's important (although should it get out of hand, I'll start moving things to the talk page). Ryan Postlethwaite 11:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately this leaves no way to address the current dynamics with 4 of the last 5 oppose voters to autoformatting (108–111) apparently thinking this is about date linking. For 3 of them I have no idea how they would have voted without the misconception. I am pretty sure that this kind of thing, when uncontradicted, makes the following voters more likely to make the same mistake. There are similar misconceptions among support voters, but of course the losing side is more likely to claim the poll was invalid because of such issues. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hans: I do not agree with the assessment that these four voters have confused formatting with linking. Voters are under no obligation to give all of their reasons. A challenge should be regarded as exceptional, and should be via Ryan, now and not after the poll closes. We do not want unseemly horse-trading on the validity of individual votes after the close. In any case, I think (1) challenges would result in very few, if any, changes by voters; and (2) there would be challenges on both sides (I can see plenty of "Supports" I'd like to challenge). Is it worth all the fuss, or should we trust voters' inner reasoning? Tony (talk) 14:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not talking about challenging voters. I am talking about ways to avoid that we get even more such votes which, while opposing autoformatting, enable certain editors' predictable attempts to declare the vote invalid. I want autoformatting to lose this poll fairly, and transparently so. --Hans Adler (talk) 15:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Currently the latest support rationale reads: "Its really confusing if you're editing an article in one format and your display is in the other format". The latest oppose rationale reads: "We should stop date linking for the sake of auto-formatting. There may be other, less intrusive, ways to auto-format dates." No, we can't trust the inner reasoning of such voters. They are obviously confused to the point where they had better not bothered to vote. If we can't respond to such obvious mistakes, others obviously follow their lead. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Notice placed at top of Misplaced Pages:Date formatting and linking poll/Autoformatting responses

To try and clear up any confusion regarding autoformatting and linking, I've placed a notice at the top of the autoformatting responses. It's important that people commenting are 100% sure of what they are commenting on. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Ryan—helpful. However, I believe that there is not the confusion of the two terms that is being assumed. The headings are clearly labelled "I support the general concept of date autoformatting" and "I oppose the general concept of date autoformatting". People know what DA is, and if there was any confusion in their minds, it would soon have been dispelled when they proceeded to Questions 2 and 3, specifically on "linking".

Critically, I want to scotch now any sense that Locke Cole et al. will wait until the poll closes and then brand it invalid on the basis that there was such confusion. I say now to the linking camp: If you seriously believe this, you should post a query at the talk page of every voter of whom you suspect such confusion. I do not believe this is necessary, but here is your chance—not after the poll. Tony (talk) 04:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"you should post a query at the talk page of every voter of whom you suspect such confusion" - for the record, apparently this is being done: here are one editor's notes to !voters. Sssoul (talk) 05:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

would it be worthwhile to repeat the "this section is about autoformatting not linking" statement as a so-called editnotice that would appear above the edit boxes? i don't know how to create editnotices, so this is a suggestion for someone else to follow up on if it seems worthwhile. Sssoul (talk) 06:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure it would help, and I don't see any problem with contacting each person who provides an inappropriate reason for their vote. As you (and others, but you at least saw what I was doing for what it really was) have already noticed, I contacted all the people who have given "confused" votes so far, and most of them have already clarified their positions on their talk pages. I just re-contacted those that replied and asked that they do so again on the poll page, so hopefully that will resolve the issue. If a few more trickle in (as things seem to be trailing off) then it's not a big deal to contact them, as well. In all honesty, my eyes kinda glaze over when I'm reading things I already agree with, so if somebody on the "oppose" side could look over the "support" !votes and see if any of those are providing inappropriate reasons, that'd be good. I did do that a couple times already, and didn't see any, but I may have missed some, especially if there aren't many (which there don't seem to be — even on the oppose side.) --Sapphic (talk) 06:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Mailing list

I posted a note on wikien-l telling them about the poll. There may be some people who are interested who have missed our other notices. Worst case we get no extra opinions - I don't think any harm will be done by prodding people a little more :-). Ryan Postlethwaite 22:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Deprecation

Not the right venue for this, I know, but deprecation is simply Wikijargon. See WP:Jargon: "It is often helpful to wikilink terms not obvious to most readers".

• Good point. I think I spent something like ten minutes researching the term the first time I encountered it. Sometimes we combatants tend to get too accustomed to wikiwords. We should deprecate the practice and refactor posts that use such verbiage. ;-) Greg L (talk) 04:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it simply means discontinue the use of. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I always thought it meant "expressing strong disapproval", so I checked it. It seems it originally meant "pray for deliverance" from something. Maybe it's the right word after all? --RexxS (talk) 15:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

If WP uses it often enough to mean discontinue the use of, eventually the dictionaries may list it, provided the compilers are keeping an eye on Wiki usage. (Let's hope not.) Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

We should start a campaign to bring back the original use. I'll begin:

Think it will work if we all join in? --RexxS (talk) 21:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Deprecation is a perfectly acceptable term in a software context, for features and practices that are "superseded and should be avoided". – ukexpat (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

War & peace posts

Post comments like autoformatting-support #90 really should have its treatise moved off the main page. The space afforded in an RfC is a bit like toilet paper at a highway rest stop: sure, it’s there for everyone, but how about not walking off with three whole rolls of the stuff? Greg L (talk) 04:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Large essays starting to appear in the voting section

Ryan, two more in the past few hours, (Numbers 90 and 92 in the Support section). Rather long for a vote, don't you think? I wonder what the "Comments on date autoformatting" section is for? Where is the boundary. I'd have though four or five lines maximum.

I see that Ckatz removed a much smaller post by HWV258 earlier, and again, but has acted to reinstate the essay (No. 90) I earlier relocated to the Comments section.

I want to take issue with these points. Why are people being allowed a soap box to push poll? If this is not redressed, I'll be expanding my vote into a huge essay, responding to these other essays. It will lead to a migration of long discussions from the talk page and "Comments" section right into the voting sections. Unwieldy and probably an introduction of a whole lot of push polling. Tony (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It appears that User:Sapphic has taken to heart the idea of challenging voters on their Oppose votes, on their talk pages. This appears to be a campaign, whereas what we need is an orderly notification here that a vote is believed to be mistaken, with supervision by Ryan. As I said above, this should be exceptional. Otherwise, both sides will be encouraged to go around to a large proportion of voters, challenging their stated reasoning. It will be chaos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dominus&diff=prev&oldid=280986568

Please note that at the above post, Sapphic admits that she edits through another account nowadays. I want to be reassured that push polling is not occurring through that other account. What is the name of that account? Tony (talk) 07:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• I echo Tony's comments above. In addition to the essay by User:Nyelvmark, another one, under the apparent guise of a vote by User:BQZip01 appears to by another philibuster. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Difficult to say. I only have a few reasons for my !vote, so I didn't think a detailed list of points is needed. Others may differ. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Tony, sorry, but two out of almost one hundred "support" comments go long, and now you wish to limit what people can say? As for your comment regarding HMV258's posts, there is a marked difference between your actions and mine: you and Greg L refactored and moved large portions of original vote text to new locations. (While you didn't edit the text, you both arbitrarily split it up and relocate it, once to the talk page and the other time to the bottom of the page.) This is unacceptable behaviour, especially while the RfC is under way. On the other hand, the two sections of text I moved were both responses to votes, not the original user's vote and comment. This was identical in nature to Ryan's earlier action to maintain the stated "no threaded responses" requirement. (Note that if Ryan objects to my actions, and prefers to be the only one doing so, I'll certainly stop.) If you have a concern regarding the length of a posted vote, your response should be to notify Ryan or the original posters, not to rework it yourself. --Ckatz_spy 09:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

But ... "sorry", you left your own "response to a vote (No. 85), which I felt so biassed I had to say something directly after it. Why one rule you and one for HWV?

If there is more push-polling via either large essay-type posts—especially in the Support section, which enjoys the benefit of being first—or by challenging users on their talk pages (without prior notification here), I believe action should be taken. I'm quite happy for dialogue in the voting zone to be removed, too. I'm still very unhappy about the two essays. These are far beyond what counts as a vote comment, and belong down in the comments section. These supporters should be content with four, even six or seven lines. These are over the top—one is about 40 lines, the other nearly 50 lines. These are equivalent to more than a page each. Tony (talk) 10:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There's only one rule, period... to be perfectly honest, I'd presumed that our dialogue had been moved along with the other comment of mine that Ryan had relocated during his cleanup of all responses to comments. --Ckatz_spy 16:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Hear me. READ MY POST. Hear meeeeeee!

• I don’t oppose the practice of long- treatise-like vote comments because I think the practice gives anyone an advantage of any sort. Indeed not. I oppose the practice because it’s an ineffective form of cheating. Editors who come late to RfCs and spew gigantic comments fifty times bigger than the average Joe have, in my opinion, an overinflated sense of self-esteem because they 1) think they have something new to say, and 2) have deluded themselves that anyone actually reads these tomes. For the most part, they are wrong on both counts. It’s just a form of “hear me – hear meeeee!

  Further, it’s just a desperation move by those who now recognize there isn’t a WP:SNOWBALL chance that a consensus could ever form that the Misplaced Pages community wants UC Bill’s “Son of autformatting” (I thought he deleted his code and quit Misplaced Pages) or any of the other ideas being proposed by a small cabal of volunteer developers. Ignore these long RfC comments and take satisfaction that they now perceive the need to fly their Kamikaze posts into the flotilla of inevitability. Greg L (talk) 14:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• Whilst there are some very large comments on the poll, they all form part of a vote. At the minute, I don't think it's getting out of hand and the comments are useful - my main concern was the poll turning into a load of threaded discussion making it difficult to navigate. I've removed a few replies from the poll, but for now I'm going to leave the vote comments. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Suspected canvassing by User:Sapphic

I believe that User:Sapphic may be canvassing in the above. She has been leaving messages on talk pages of 19 editors in an apparent attempt at influencing the debate. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. (see her contributions for full list)

Although she claims she is not trying to influence the debate, it is difficult to arrive at that conclusion as the unescapable fact is that she is contacting only opponents to autoformatting, with arguments which may undermine their support. According to her, she uses an alternative account which is not apparently declared. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, canvassing seems to be a real problem. Just look at the RfC-related spamming here, here, here, here, here, and here, along with at least 25 other instances all listed here. The editor has even gone so far as to create and distribute four userboxes promoting his position on the RfC. --Ckatz_spy 09:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the "canvassing" by Ohconfucius was directed to those who had already voted the way he would like them to – so where is the problem, that they might change their mind or that Ohconfucius instantly radicalises them to the point where they try to sockpuppet? (Note that I don't agree with the concept of divisive userboxes, but that's an unrelated matter.) What Sapphic is doing is much more problematic. Actually I was thinking about doing something similar, but not restricted to one side, and strictly pointing out only the apparent confusion with no advocacy. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I think some of those posts are leading to a certain POV but also some are asking for clarification (as I did with user:Nihonjoe here). The ideas of date linking and autoformatting are often confused. Hence my above proposal to "vote to discontinue autoformatting through the use of wikilinks", but no one seemed to be listening. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I was listening, but it seems you weren't. The issue of "vote to discontinue autoformatting through the use of wikilinks" was settled conclusively in the Nov/Dec RfCs as "Deprecate". The problem that then arose was that some editors posited that those RfCs showed support for "date autoformatting without creating links". In other words, the issue of "date autoformatting by some other means" was raised. This RfC is designed to answer that specific question and not to go over old ground where the consensus is already clear. I'm sorry I've been so blunt about it, but it does nothing to help move forward, if editors continually raise questions that have already been settled. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

If this was really the case then why do we have an RFC based on autoformatting and how to link dates? If the result was deprecate then why are these two unrelated topics still coupled together? It's too late now (again, for the third time) but people will continue to misunderstand what they are voting for if we keep holding joint RFCs on these topics. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 09:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz: as you have taken an interest in this issue (by responding to Ohconfucius' post), and based on the information supplied by Greg_L below, could you please respond to the content of the original post? Thanks.  HWV258  21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• Ohconfucius is just giving voters a lapel pin to wear as they exit the polling booth. He gave one to me. That isn’t disruptive. Sapphic is badgering Wikipedians who voted one particular way in an effort to get them to go back in and change their vote. That must stop right now. She should be warned and taken to an ANI if the canvassing persists. I doubt that the effort—and the trouble she could find herself in as a result—will pay off with a change of a single vote; it’s just that she is cheating, which doesn’t impress. Greg L (talk) 15:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
  • In an actual election, providing lapel pins (which support, as Ohconfucius' do, a particular side) to those leaving the polling booth would be unlawful; this analogy needs work. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
• I've had a look at this and I believe it is canvassing. I've therefore asked Sapphic not to contact any other users on their talk page for the remainder of the poll. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No disrespect, but you're wrong here, Ryan. Maybe I violated some other policy/guideline/whatever (though if that's so, I can't find it anywhere) but WP:CANVAS applies to messages sent to people who have not already participated in a poll. I explain my actions in a lot more detail in the sub-section immediately below. So, unless you can point me at some policy I actually did violate, I'm going to just keep doing what I've been doing. Glad you're feeling better. --Sapphic (talk) 23:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• As it is common practice in WP for editors to change their votes up to the closure of polls in light of new information and arguments made, it remains arguable that your actions could be considered canvassing as they appear to be aimed at influencing a voting intention. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

• Hi all. I'd like to give my support to Sapphic. I'm one of those that were contacted by her and, even if our opinions diverge, I did appreciate she took contact with me and asked for clarification. To my opinion, this is legitimate. Apparently, she invested a lot of time and efforts in debates about autoformatting. All those, like you and her, that involved deeply in this issue, deserve that those like me that did not take part of past discussions, respect your work and do not vote lightly on false basis. If she had a doubt on my understanding of the vote, she was right to bring me information I didn't have and ask me to clarify myself. And if some editors changed their mind after discussing with her, I don't see any wrong in this. Sincerely, how would you value a vote outcome if half the voters display a clear misconception of what they are voting for? I just hope she also took contact with unclear voters that were on her side, but I would not condemn her if she didn't: everyone that has a true interest in a fair vote should be welcome to do the same.

In addition, I do agree with her understanding of what canvassing is and is not. In the past, I've seen some wikipedians attempting to twist the outcome of an RfD or a poll by massively drawing attention of others to it, either by IRC on on their talk page, no matter they were not concerned by the subject. This is exactly what I call canvassing. What Sapphic did is in no way comparable. She started a discussion with people that 1. have shown an interest in the topic, 2. have already made up their mind and expressed themselves with a vote, but 3. didn't make themselves clear, at least in her opinion. This has nothing to do with raising an army of voters from nowhere.

It doesn't matter we do not agree on date autoformatting, I believe what she did was right, and I wish you would see things the way I do. — Xavier, 22:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Possible canvassing

(Copied from my talk page.) --Sapphic (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

It has come to my attention that you may be attempting to influence the voting at WP:DATEPOLL, and may be in breach of WP:CANVAS. Please be informed that a complaint has been filed at Misplaced Pages talk:Date formatting and linking poll‎#Suspected canvassing by User:Sapphic. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

On my reading, WP:CANVAS only applies to notifying editors about a poll who haven't already participated. However, even if you want to try applying it to what I've been doing, it's still okay because I'm attempting to "improve rather than to influence a discussion." I've been contacting only those people who have justified their opposition !vote by some inappropriate (a.k.a. "confused") manner — something along the lines of "I'm against autoformatting because I hate all the bluelinks" or "I support autoformatting because I click on date links all the time" which clearly show a lack of understanding of the question being asked. It just so happens that there are no examples of the second kind, and I've only been contacting people on the "oppose" side. Maybe I'm just not reading closely enough and have missed some in the "support" side, but out of over 200 replies (at the time) there were only a dozen or so in total that seemed to be genuinely "confused" about the question. Most of them have now expanded on their reasons for their opposition (on their talk pages, but perhaps they could still be persuaded to do so on the poll page too) so if anything, I've done a favor for the opposition. But I've also eliminated one possible source of contention in interpreting the results, which was my actual goal. So will you please just cut me some slack and have a little faith? Jeez. --Sapphic (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

We still haven't been apprised of User:Sapphic's other account. Without this information, it is impossible to know whether she has voted twice, and whether she has engaged in canvassing. Tony (talk) 12:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I was going to ask you what the hell you were talking about, but I just now saw that part of Ohno's comment above. Ohno misinterpreted my statement. I have not been editing with another account, I've simply stopped editing with this one, which is what I said originally anyway. I may be a rude bitch at times, but I'm not stupid and wouldn't advertise being a sockpuppet, if that's what I was doing. I'm probably going to abandon this account once this date fiasco is concluded, and maybe I will and maybe I won't register a new account... but it won't be for a while, if I do, and it won't be any of your business, as long as I don't continue to use the old account. --Sapphic (talk) 14:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not mean to offend you. You did announce yesterday that you edit on the dates issue with the "Sapphic" account and on all else with another account. I was understandably concerned, but I accept what you say. Tony (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm sorry to have misinterpreted your remark. Of course, I felt it made little sense to write what you wrote, which is why I got it wrong. However, on re-reading, it is indeed what you wrote. I stand corrected that you did not say you run another account concurrently with User:Sapphic. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No offense taken, and apology accepted. For once I wasn't actually angry over being falsely accused of something, just confused. The reason I was pointing out my account status was because I didn't expect to be checking either that talk page or my own, so I wanted any reply to be made on the poll page.. although I seem to be sticking around longer than I'd planned, so the point ended up being irrelevant anyway. Also, ohconfucius, I wasn't trying to make fun of your name by calling you "ohno" I just couldn't remember how to spell it (and was editing in a new subsection so I couldn't just scroll up) and for some reason thought it was "ohnoconfucius" by mistake. (I only just noticed the mistake now, and figured I'd join the merry apology-go-round.) --Sapphic (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Wait, the new subsection I was replying in had other comments by you. So I was really just being lazy and have no excuse for getting your name wrong. I suspect you don't care and may not have even noticed, but nonetheless, happy merry apology-go-round an all, you know. --Sapphic (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• Sapphic: Whatever your reading of what "canvassing" is, you are clearly irritating voters. Take this response, from earlier today:

I still think you're taking a lot upon yourself to hassle people (especially me) over their vote. Doesn't WP:CANVAS prohibit this? I'm not unsympathetic that some people oppose autoformatting because "date links are useless" but that's life - all the time people vote and proffer their opinions without understanding the issues and it's just something we have to learn to put up with or ignore.

And then this one:

Do you have a userbox that tells people that I do not want spam on my user talk page?

Pestering voters whose decision doesn't happen to suit you is a little desperate, don't you think? I see what I would take as misrepresentations at some users' talk pages, too. Tony (talk) 07:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions on Misplaced Pages:Date formatting and linking poll. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.