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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive13#Willy on Wheels legal action? → Misplaced Pages talk:Vandalism in progress/Willy on Wheels#Willy on Wheels legal action? — Ambush Commander 00:17, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

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* ''']''' - Short Summary (not more than a paragraph) ~~~~

Special:Log/newusers - See also Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Newuserlog. Originally posted by cesarb 22:34, 7 September 2005 (UTC) moved by — Ambush Commander 23:23, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

I, AllyUnion, in my official capacity as programmer-in-particular, hereby bestow upon the Misplaced Pages, the mighty and presigious Reset Button for all Sandboxes, including the templates "Please leave alone" templates. For any questions regarding this particular reset button, please let me know. --AllyUnion (talk) 11:34, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

General

Tasks

The following backlogs require the attention of one or more editors.
Transwiki to Wikibooks and Wiktionary

Requested moves, Vandalism in progress, AfD cleanup, Copyright Problems and Requests for page protection

Possible problem user

I've been really busy outside Misplaced Pages the last few days, and may be the next few days, but could someone look into new user El Rei? His home page screams "problem user" to me, and I've already had one other user complain to me about him. It looks like his main (sole?) agenda here is to attack Catalan nationalism. Possible sockpuppet, because he's single-issue and already knows the ropes, but could just be someone who was previously editing anonymously, or jsut watching. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Several PoV edits. i have placed a warning about one particularly egrious edit on his talk page. DES 01:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Inter-wiki issue - may not be able to help

... it appears that over-zealous admin action is not just an en thing. I had a Korean friend translate a short amount of text for the Korean version of the Municipality of Strathfield, however it was deleted (with no explanation) by ko:사용자:최담담. Same with ko:Strathfield. Doesn't bode well for the project (it's hard to find Korean natives who are willing to translate for you!). Considering that Strathfield has one of the largest populations of Koreans in Australia, I would have thought that it would be appropriate to have an article on the Korean wiki (South Koreans would find it useful when visiting Australia). Can anyone advise on the best way of dealing with this issue, or at least find out why it got deleted? - Ta bu shi da yu 00:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the latin alphabet titles? Does ko have policy on this sort of thing? Were they orphans etc... Secret london 02:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Possible, however I don't believe there is an equivalent Korean version of Strathfield... - Ta bu shi da yu 11:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Well if you look at undelete info it has a reason in Korean. The reason includes 2 links - one of which is to Sydney. Note that this is to 시드니 and not to a page called Sydney.. Secret london 02:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The reason isn't an actual reason, just the boilerplate "content was" and "only contributor". ~~ N (t/c) 02:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Are they not more likely to be able to speculate on their policies if you ask at the VP equivalent on ko:? This doesn't sounds like an issue that en: can usefully answer; except to complain about another Wiki. -Splash 03:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Have posted to their AFD page. If something happens, then it happens. Otherwise, I'm not going to bother pursuing it. en is enough for me! - Ta bu shi da yu 11:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Trhead can close - a message to the editor who deleted, to PuzzletChang and to their AFD talk page sorted things out: seems like they have had spammers and my friend's translation wasn't too good (he didn't really know how Misplaced Pages worked...) Thanks for everyone's help! Ta bu shi da yu 11:53, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Problems with several users

User:Guettarda, User:HistoryBA, User:Jpgordon, User:Accountable_1135, User:Nickptar, User:Shanes, User:Gamaliel, User:Scimitar, and finally User:Hall_Monitor along with a whole host of sockpuppets and anons seem commited to blind reverting all my contributions, this is counter productive, and downright trollish, I tried contacting a user User:MONGO, who seems reasonable enough, to help me deal with the problem, he sent me here, so here I am --Here I come to save the day 23:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

When a whole set of different editors are reverting your edits, perhaps you should look at your own edits. For example, you inserted several {{NPOV}} tags without making any attempt to explain what specifically you considered not in keeping with our NPOV policy. You chose not to act when I explained this to you - so you really should not be upset that Scimitar eventually reverted your tagging. Guettarda 23:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Acuse the acuser? oh that's origional--Here I come to save the day 00:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL. Policy states that NPOV tags can be removed if there is no explanation for them on the talk page. ~~ N (t/c) 00:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

No, of course it's not. People like you have been making false accusations throughout history. However, Guettarada's "accusation"(more accurately advice) is drastically more reasonable than yours. Superm401 | Talk 03:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Note this edit. Note that I have never reverted anything added by this user, to my knowledge. Note that my only involvement ever with this user has been that post. Note especially the false edit summary. Note that this is classic trollish behavior. ~~ N (t/c) 00:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean admins shouldn't be required to actually take time to think before jumping to conclusions, and making rash, snap desicions--Here I come to save the day 01:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Before making more accusations and complaints, please explain the lie in your edit summary. Superm401 | Talk 03:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Rash, snap decisions such as? ~~ N (t/c) 01:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

lets see, parroting me then spitting my own words back at me with a question mark at the end? Now that is classic trollish behavior if I've ever scene it--Here I come to save the day 01:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

It's more important than policy, it's common sense :) - NPOV tag is saying "there is a problem with this article because X". Without X it's essentially a null statement. (After all, someone could easily tag an article on the basis that they think it leans too much towards one POV, then someone might try to fix the flagged undefined problem by making it lean more towards the opposite POV.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rd232 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly recommend admins ignore this post until the deceitful edit summary has been explained fully. Superm401 | Talk 03:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

If you refer to my edit summary "fmt", this was accurate. I made two minor changes to the initial comment. (And forgot to sign - it was late :) ). Always check the history before accusing people of deceitful edit summaries (in my experience pretty rare anyway - unhelpful or absent summaries yes, but outright unambiguous deceit, rare). Rd232 14:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Superm401 was referring to the original poster of this thread. See . android79 15:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes, probably. I was confused because Superm401's remark wasn't terribly specific and was right below mine. Rd232 16:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The only deceitful person here is you and maybe a few others, how do you expect me to answer you when i have no idea you're talking about--Here I come to save the day 04:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I just left you a message on your talk page regarding a "deceitful" edit summary you left on Bill Clinton . --Viriditas | Talk 06:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I dunno, your post above parroting someone seems pretty bad to me. Wait, why does that seem familiar?

i have no idea you're talking about It ain't rocket science. Your edit summary ("formatting text") bears no relation to the actual edit, which was adding User:Nickptar to your enemies list for the crime of disagreeing with you. Disingenuous claims of not understanding the obvious: another classic troll behavior. --Calton | Talk 05:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

My view is that "Here I come..." could benefit from toning down his rhetoric (re: "the only deceitful person here is you", etc. - see above) . At the same time, I do agree that Accountable 1135's actions ought to be looked into - I have had problems with 1135 myself. Rex071404 04:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Take that comment with a grain of salt. See User talk:The Epopt#Help! I am being hassled by what appears to be a sockpuppet vandal, for a start. Superm401 | Talk 07:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

hum, Q1werty (talk · contribs), I'm just saying..... walks off whistling....who was that masked stranger -- no name

Does anyone else think this was a little too obvious?--64.12.116.74 20:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

BigDaddy777, aka A1sdf, has been running a Metric Shitload of socks and never mind the silly little matter of his arbitration case. See block log for comedy. Accountable 1135 appears to be the same user as well, for more comedy~~, and, BWAHAHAHA, notably also shares an IP range with User:SuperTroll. Although that might just be coincidence.~~ (no he doesn't, whoops) - David Gerard 13:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I wondered - "here I come to save the day" sounded very BD to me. But that he's now editing agaist himself...is he maybe a parody of a right-wing user? Guettarda 14:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a poor troll who can't stoke both sides of an argument as needed - David Gerard 16:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

omg is that really BigDaddy? Geezus that guy needs to get a life and go do something else besides be bitter at wikipedia for the rest of his life. --kizzle 20:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It seemed pretty obvious from the start that BigDaddy was supposed to be a strawman, so much so that he was probably a strawman of a strawman, ie, being himself, but exagerated, so it would look like it was a liberal pretending to be a republican.. yes my head hurts too.. but frankly whatever he was, BigDaddy was far too big an asshole to be any of these people. The question is of course, since qwerty was already blocked from editing, no matter who/what it was, for obvious reasons, then why would said person try to evade a block, yet draw so much attention to themselves? why virtually copy a pre-ban talk page, user name, even signature?? not to mention, this whole time, AOL anons seems to have been running around marking just about everyone involved in this whole deal.. last time I checked, only admins could see the ip of registered users, so how did some 2 or 3 post aol anon manage to pinpoint every single one of them? Hell, a few of the more obvious ones, like Big Daddy (talk · contribs), BigDaddy (talk · contribs), BigDaddy000 (talk · contribs), BigDaddy666 (talk · contribs), and a few others, were first reported by aol anons, except, half of those user names were registered after they were reported???!! Anyone find something strange about that? top this all off with the fact that after the dust cleared, it seems the only involved parties, not touched by the sockpuppet scandal are Rex and a random AOL anon, an odd turn of events since Rex was the one accused of being BigDaddy, just prior to the flood of sockpuppets, either way, there's something very strange going on here--Quickie smalls 20:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Translation required

Could a Dutch speaker translate this ]? 213.94.233.173 13:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello and good day to you. I am the inventor of the "SUPER COOL" robot. I write to tell that you the requirements of other smaller programmers are clearly false. This "SUPER TROLL" is only a bad amateur who tries require credit for my work. Or does this "SUPER sees TROLL" have the guard word to the accounts... I do not think so. That is all. Have a nice day! Programmer X .

my dutch is slightly rusty but this close enough. 71.28.246.3 09:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I could, but why do you want it? A quick look at recent edits from your IP address and at some "please stop vandalizing" messages left on your talk page didn't inspire confidence that the person using that IP address recently was trying to help Misplaced Pages. Are you the same person or someone different? Ann Heneghan 14:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

What business of yours are my contributions. In fact, what were you doing looking through my edit history? And FYI, your conspiracy theories are a nonsense - don't you think I'd want to hide my IP address if I was the vandalbot? 213.94.233.173 17:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, when I read your message requesting a translation, I went to your talk page, out of the kindness of my heart, to translate the passage for you, thinking that it might not be appropriate here. (What has it got to do with the administrators' noticeboard?) When I got there, I saw so many "stop vandalizing" messages that I looked at your contributions to see if they'd give me a clue as to whether they all came from the same person. (No point in sending a message to the talk page of a randomly-assigned IP address.) And by the way, you haven't thanked me for doing the translation! Ann Heneghan 19:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the translation. I now see that there has been some vandalism from this IP address, but I wasn't behind it. I do resent how, increasingly, any non-admin who posts on a talk page or vote has their contributions combed for anything suspect. 213.94.233.173 20:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

FWIW it's the creator of robot SUPER COOL complaining that the creator of another robot, SUPER TROLL, is taking credit for his work. Rd232 14:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, here goes:

Bright and good day to you

I am the creator of the "SUPER COOL" robot. I write to tell you that the claims of other smaller programmers are clearly false. This "SUPER TROLL" is simply a bad amateur who is trying to claim credit for my work. See if this "SUPER TROLL" knows the password for the accounts. . . I think not. That is all. Have a nice day! Programmer X

(Note from Ann: It's fifteen years since I left Holland, and I'm deliberately trying to forget my Dutch because it confuses me when I try to speak German. Nevertheless, my instinct is that that Dutch passage was not written by a native.) Ann Heneghan 14:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Ann, I couldn't agree more with that last sentence... Especially the first and last sentence of the Dutch text are in no way something a native speaker would say. In fact, I am quite sure the text was translated by something like Babelfish. --JoanneB 16:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

IMDB credit listing

Do we have a policy or guidline on pages that are basically just copy and paste credit listings from IMDB? AlistairMcMillan 13:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

No, we do not per se. But your question reminds me of the United States Supreme Court case Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service. After Feist copied information from Rural's telephone listings to include in its own, the court ruled that there was no copyright infringement; "information" is not copyrightable but "collections" of information can be. So applying that ruling to your question, merely copying and pasting credit listings from IMDB would probably be no different. After all, IMDB is also essentially merely copying and pasting the data from the movie studios' publications and press releases. But then again, I am not an expert in copyright law. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 21:11, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, I think I misunderstood your original question. If an article just merely has a "data dump" of credit listings without asserting any sort of context in a lead section, it qualifies for speedy deletion (of course I and many others would prefer that it should immediately be converted to a reasonable film-stub instead of being deleted right away). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 21:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  - However, you also have watch if the "Plot Outline" and the "User Comments" from the IMDB pages are copied and pasted too. That would be copyvio. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 21:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

User:69.37.164.205 regarding deleted article Car accident secrets

This article was nominated on WP:AFD, and the community came to a consensus to delete it as spam. This user subsequently recreated the article multiple times, and I deleted it every time. The anon is insisting that the article stay. What should happen next? Denelson 83 22:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Place {{deletedpage}} and protect it against recreation. If he begins to post it in other places, warn and block. Titoxd 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The anon has now left the following message on my talk page:

I know the law because I am a lawyer and what you are doing is pure censorship. You allow Chicken Soup for the Soul to advertise website sales links but you will not allow another book to follow the same format. You are censoring material on an open forum

Denelson 83 22:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have now had to block this IP for this. Denelson 83 22:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah; he was past ready. Jdavidb (talk) 23:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Ripping AOL a new one

*Please stop permabanning people using AOL sharedips every ten seconds I get block messages telling me I'm this blocked user or that blocked user, It's impossible to edit from AOL anymore, just about.. OMG, it's not even the same user, each time It tells me my ip has recently been used by "etc.. yada yada" and each time it's a different name, this is getting kind of silly, can you reset the autobans on AOLs shared proxies or what?--64.12.116.74 23:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, there is no "autoban" on AOL proxies; in fact, the blocking policy makes it quite clear that blocks on AOL IPs are to be kept very short in order to prevent this kind of collateral damage. If you know of specific IP addresses that have been blocked for a longer-than-reasonable amount of time, list them here and they will get our utmost attention. Keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is not responsible for AOL's... unique proxy scheme, nor is it responsible for the vandalism by AOL users that causes the IPs to get blocked in the first place. android79 23:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Editing through AOL is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural--64.12.116.74 20:36, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... I could have sworn there was verbiage in the blocking policy that related specifically to AOL... android79 23:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The verbiage is mostly confined to MediaWiki:Blockiptext, which is shown as the header of Special:Blockip. --cesarb 23:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The trouble is that if a blocked user comes in from AOL, their IP gets caught by the autoblocker. Presumably an AOL exception could be added to the autoblocker, if someone can be bothered writing one - David Gerard 10:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

if (preg_match("...",$ip))
 {
   //autoblock for 10 minutes
 }
else 
 {
  //normal procedure
 }

was that hard? — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 16:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Anagram vandal

That is exactly the same method that is used by the Schnorrer vandal. Apparently they got bored with that page protected. --Fire Star 16:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's exacly the same person. What is the policy on checkuser, and how do we request it? We could let this user merrily keep on editting WP, ignoring the blocks. However, as soon as they start this spelling-revert behaviour again, we'll have to go through this process again. It'd be good to know that we have an effective tool to use against this user. --Gareth Hughes 18:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish that I knew enough about how to do that to be more helpful. It is kind of a pain to keep the affected pages protected all time. --Fire Star 22:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Users with checkuser access can be found here. You can ask either of them for help. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:07, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll follow up the checkuser. We've just had Shilip (talk · contribs) revert changes by the Philip Baird Shearer. --Gareth Hughes 22:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

There are two users with access to checkuser. Tim Starling just says "Talk to David Gerard", and he says that he won't do it without an ArbCom case. Is there any possibility of bringing a case against a whole list of user accounts we suspect of being the same person? Otherwise, we have no teeth at all to deal with determined vandalism. --Gareth Hughes 22:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

CheckUser is a vexed issue at the moment. We want more people to have it, but the Foundation board have the willies about the privacy policy. We are now at the stage of dredging our way through non-profit organisation politics. I don't quite have words to express just how much fun this is - David Gerard 21:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

It has been pointed out to me that this vandal could well be NoPuzzleStranger (an anagram of Gzornenplatz), a recognised sock of Wik. Does the middle of this history page give enough evidence to carry out the check on the basis that is in connexion with the evasion of a hard ban? --Gareth Hughes 12:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems more than likely that Kolokol is another incarnation of Wik. Same editing style, same peculiar language, same interests (such as 1921 in France), same reckless attitude. I would suggest to block the account, and if he wants to appeal, let him prove that he is not Wik. Kosebamse 10:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

User:65.175.220.182

Should stuff like this be blanked? CambridgeBayWeather 21:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Speedied. Thanks, --MarkSweep✍ 21:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

User 4.242..

I'm new at this admin stuff and would like some information as to what should be done. This user seems to be editing almost every day. The main targets are Pumpkin pie, Circuit City, Bernard Sumner, Peter Wolf and maybe others. Things range from blanking the entire article and removing categories to adding links to non-related articles. The address changes each day but the articles hit are always the same. CambridgeBayWeather 23:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks like this person is either using some sort of dynamic IP address or proxy server -- which means that trying to block might be useless because he will essentially evade the block by re-logging into his ISP, or cause collateral damage by blocking other legitimate users using those same IPs. But looking at the recent page history of the articles you mentioned, protecting them might be the best thing to do for now. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:46, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Unprotect button

When removing or un protecting , the button should say unprotect or unlock or remove protection. On my browser, it continues to say protect which is confusing.--Jondel 06:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the "two kinds of protection" issue, I believe... (scrounging for link to discussion) - brenneman 12:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

scrounging? Was this brought up before?--Jondel 06:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

User:The Silent Majority

This fellow apparently created his self-admitted sockpuppet just to post on my talk page. Is there a policy against Wiki sockpuppets?

Atlant 17:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

As per Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet, no, there is not, unless that sockpuppet is used to circumvent policy. The Silent Majority should note that civility is, indeed, policy, and that hiding behind a sockpuppet in order to make uncivil remarks to your fellow editors is pretty shameful behavior. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 20:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!

Atlant 11:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Ragib

The User has blocked this page, Urdu, after being actively involved in editting it. He reverted to his preferred version and blocked it. May someone please take a look at this and warn him, as it goes against Misplaced Pages policy. Thanks--JusticeLaw 20:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have protected it against persistent blanking. Why? Please take a look at the Page history. Consistent blanking without any justification has been going on for the last month or so. Interestingly, the user JusticeLaw (talk · contribs) and several suspected sockpuppets (StephenCox (talk · contribs), Frederick24 (talk · contribs) ) are involved in same type of blanking vandalism almost everyday ... alternating between accounts to avoid 3RR violation. Anyway, the issue of dispute here is due to the blanking of the detailed classification of the Urdu Language by JusticeLaw (talk · contribs). He consistently blanks the details (Indo-European->Indo-Iranian->Indo-Aryan->Western Hindi languages->Hindustani->Urdu) to (Indo-European->Indo-Iranian->Indo-Aryan). The detailed classification is taken from the widely used Ethnologue language reference site, and pointed out in the Urdu language page. For the record, my only "Active" participation in editing the page is to revert blanking and adding the Ethnologue link to the classification.

By the way, since it came to ANB, could someone with m:checkuser privilege please check the IPs for JusticeLaw (talk · contribs), StephenCox (talk · contribs), and Frederick24 (talk · contribs)? It's too much of a coincidence when 3 users dedicate their entire wikipedia edit history to editing exactly same few articles, and doing exactly the same kind of edits. I asked Nichalp to do this several days ago, but he told me to check with someone with m:checkuser permissions.

Also, if, after reviewing the edit history and the Ethnologue/any other references, anyone feels that the current vprotected status should not apply, feel free to unprotect it. The page history has become dedicated to a tug of war between JusticeLaw (talk · contribs) and everyone else, so this needs to be resolved soon. Thanks. --Ragib 02:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

GFDL on uploaded images

From September 2004 to October 18, 2005, there was some form of notice in MediaWiki:Uploadtext that read (in its original version):

"By uploading a file to which you hold the copyright, you agree to licence it under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License."

When it was originally added, it was argued that this was implicit in the terms of Misplaced Pages:Copyrights which says:

"If you contribute material to Misplaced Pages, you thereby license it to the public under the GFDL (with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts)."

Regardless of whether or not it is a good idea (or even generally enforced), removing the clause that requires images to be licensed under the GFDL is a fairly substantial change, which didn't even provoke comment during discussion of the revisions. Hence I am asking the question now. Should we include that notice that all images uploaded by their owner must be licensed under the GFDL? Dragons flight 17:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe that if it's in Misplaced Pages:Copyrights, we should put it on MediaWiki:Uploadtext as well. Perhaps it should be removed from both, I don't know. But any files uploaded by the owner should be licensed under GFDL, I believe. Ral315 (talk) 19:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

A significantly related discussion is going on at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion#Limited Use. It is my view that a degree of limitation beyond a strict GFDL requirment should be permitted for images, for reasons I have detailed there at some length. DES 20:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Unauthorized bots?

User:Syrthiss indicated to me that he thought 71.112.115.22 (talk · contribs) and 131.107.0.80 (talk · contribs) might be in use by some kind of bot for modifying date articles. There have been no responses to messages left on their talk pages and edits they have made to the date articles have sometimes been destructive or not according to style consensus. Jdavidb ] 20:02, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This is what I brought up above in Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Two anon users making subtle edits to date pages?. I brought it to jdavidb's attention because I saw a comment of his on 71.112.115.22's page suggesting that they use edit summaries, and told him that it was unlikely that he'd see a response (I haven't yet to either of my inquiries on their pages). I'm only still concerned because I've seen a few other bad edits, both on my own or commented on their talk pages by other editors. --Syrthiss 20:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I have posted a warning on the talk pages of these two anonymous users that if he (or they) do not confirm within 24 hours that they are not a bot (and are thus listening) that I will block. If they don't, I will block for 24 hours and we'll see if some program owner notices. Edits are not too terribly destructive, but it does sometimes look like changes are being made based on out of date copies of the pages. In any case, if these are bots, they need to be approved. Misplaced Pages:Bots states that sysops should block unapproved bots without hesitation. Jdavidb ] 20:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Nobody's been very forthcoming in guidance, here; I blocked 71.112.115.22 24 hours and left another note on his talk page that he could let me know there if he's a human rather than a script. Meanwhile 131.107.0.80 has been making some humanlike edits at the moment, so I've done nothing.

Hopefully this will prompt somebody to notice and either begin answering when people question their edits or else bring their bot(s) up for discussion and approval before further activity occurs. Jdavidb ] 00:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Blocked 131.107.0.80 24 hours. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 17:43, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That block hit User:Jmabel as collateral damage, so I've unblocked. The IP belongs to Microsoft and is probably being used by several users. It's possible the messages left for our date-article-editing user/bot have never been seen by him but instead by other users at Microsoft. I think rolling back these changes might be a better way to get the guy's attention. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 18:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Bleh. Even with scripted rollback (and knowing for sure that every edit is bad), I don't think any human can compete with the bot for speed. --Syrthiss 18:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

One could write a bot then, although I don't know if my skills are up for that or if it would be approved. The main purpose would be to disrupt the edits enough that the person starts poking around trying to find out what happens and finally communicates with us, so we can get answers to questions like, "Are you running a bot? Will you stop doing destructive things like delinking some dates and removing information from date articles? Will you start using edit summaries? Will you please communicate with us rather than ignoring us so we can address any issues caused by your edits?" I don't think one would have to perfectly roll back all of the edits to achieve that, so a competing bot would probably be unnecessary.

Short (15-30 minute) blocks might also help. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 20:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

dELETION QBD VANADALISM OF USERPAGE

MY USERPAGE ISVANDALISED BY ADMIN WHO REVERT + ADD BLOCK TEMPLATE AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND IS COMPLETE INAPRORATE PLEASE INTERFENRERERE AND STOP.

User:Surbian Legsmith who posted the comment above is a probable sockpuppet of Willy on Wheels, see his talkpage. All he has done is vandalize, so the account is blocked indefinitely. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:58, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

At least use the caps right... --Cool Cat 14:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Blockage of vandal User:Idorunet causing collateral damage

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User%3A85.104.163.244

I get to get blocked once per every two edits or something like that. User:David Gerard tried to resolve this with limited success. --Cool Cat 14:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Hai. I've also tried to unblock Cool Cat with no success. Yet more evidence that the autoblocker is stupid. :( --Phroziac

14:33, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Allow me to plug bugzilla:3706 again. --cesarb 15:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

why is my user page protected? i should be free to edit my user page. unblock and unprotect and i cease activity. msg left by Idorunet (talk • contribs)

If you read the note on userpage carefully, it is used for administrative purposes, which overrides anything else on a userpage of a known vandal. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 18:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Message from disgruntled person

This was left on my talk page, and I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. Suggestions?

Joy: A few months ago (July, 2005) I tried to get a listing on wikipedia for my company, Wilkins Media Holdings LLC. It was rejected as being non notable. Now, every time a search is made, people see that critique. PLEASE REMOVE MY COMPANY NAME FROM YOUR SERVERS. MY INTENTION WAS TO CREATE A POSITIVE LISTING. INSTEAD, THERE IS A CHILDISH, UN-PROFESSIONAL RESIDUAL. If you have any questions feel free to contact me at: (888) 252-7907 Best, Bill Wilkins October 29, 2005 ref: Wilkin Media Holdings LLC http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_July_22#WMH, LLC http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Agita&action=edit&section=1

Joyous (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Linking... WP:AFD/WMH, LLC, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Agita... Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 20:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

What does Agita have to do with the company? In either case, I don't see what he's complaining about. "Non-notable" and "weak internet presense" are certainly not blatant attacks on the company. We shouldn't just remove an archived AfD discussion just because someone claims that it portrays the company in a negative light. It's not even an article, so I don't see how this poses a problem. If I were you, I would respond kindly to him telling him of our policies, and that if he wishes to take it further to contact the Board or Jimbo. Thanks! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 20:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Not the first and not the last to be disappointed to find a V/AfD turn up in place of an article that was basically an ad for a nn-company. If he wants the article back, he could try asking at DRV. With such an abortive debate, it'd be quite likely to restore it, re-run the AfD....and leave a more comprehensive deletion debate instead. -Splash 21:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Direct them to our article Karma. Martin 21:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

You don't get it. He's mad because if you Google for his company, you get a bunch of people calling it trash rather than his company website. This is bad. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 21:54

Yeah, thats what you get for spamming, anyway google will cache it for ages, plus soon it will find this page as well. Martin 21:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Why is it that if you're a big company, it's not spamming, but if you're a little company it is? I've removed the references to the company. Google will update the pages and remove them as well. There's no need for us to stop a currently non-notable company from ever becoming notable. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 22:02

It's nothing to do with big/small it's notable or non-notable, plus the article was written like an advert. Martin 22:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? When I follow the link to the Google search, I don't see people calling it trash — the only thing related to Misplaced Pages that I see, in fact, is the AfD. Could you clarify? Thanks. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 22:08, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Saying it doesn't have a big internet presence can't be good for an internet company. My point though is that in the future other company pages that are deleted could have entries that are much worse than this one that will popup at the beginning of google.

Google is not the source of all knowledge. Show me the top shoe manufacturers in Zimbabwe. If someone knows, they'll create the article, people will VFD for no Google presenece, it'll be deleted. Thus, you have a notable company that, according to google, is non-notable (as the only hit goes to a VFD). As for its style, that's why there is an edit button. You don't delete an article for bad writing. Some of it was useable. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 22:13

In any case, there is no reason not to comply with the person's request. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 22:16

I see no reason to mess up our record keeping just because someone made the misstake of trying to use wikipedia to promte thier startup.Geni 23:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Nothing was messed up. Every page links correctly. You are also assuming bad faith, which is not generally encouraged. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 23:42

He admits to trying to create a posertive listing. The nothing is mess up claim only works if you assume that no one is going to go looking for the name of the article on the AFD page for that date.Geni 00:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

But the media company is called "Wilkins Media" or "Wilkins Media Company" . Google Site Search for "Wilkins Media holdings" (presumably a holdings company for WMC) on wilkins-media.com doesn't even get 1 hit. If a media company can't do SEO - and their site breaks in Firefox too - I don't see how that's our problem. However, it may be an issue in other cases (eg Zimbabwe example). Rd232 22:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

They are not Wilkins Media Company. Read the deleted page. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-29 23:42

Now that the link in the log has been fixed, I can see the deleted page, and I see they're not. But my point stands - if they had an actual website, it would almost certainly be above that old Misplaced Pages listing. In other words, the criticism that bothers them - "a very weak Internet presence" - is still true. Nor is the content on the log "childish or unprofessional". It's not a pointless vanity page for a company that can't be arsed to pay for its own website either, but I see no reason to change the log. Rd232 15:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I doubt that it would outrank the Misplaced Pages link. Not only is Misplaced Pages generally favored on Google, the AFD page of a given article is made part of the main AFD of that time range, which is viewed by a ton of people. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 15:47

I don't see why you doubt that, given what is currently top for that search (a website with hardly any mention of the company, low pagerank, no inbound links). In any case, the disgruntled person hasn't tried to come higher - he doesn't appear to have a website of any kind, which means I have absolutely no sympathy for him on this issue. Rd232 13:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I have undone the posty-close edit to the AfD log, and the move of the subpage. The logs should not be changed merely in order to avoid an unfavoabl google result for someone. Or if they are to be so change, we shoul;d have a policy to do so, and should do it for all such cases. A non-profit (but also aparently non-notable) music festival was complaining about the same issue on DRV recently. DES 02:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly endorse DES's actions. User:Zoe| 02:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Agree too, these are archives, don't mess with them just because someone doesn't like a google search. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 16:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we not make it so google et al don't crawl pages we don't want them to, e.g. closed AFDs? Martin 15:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I forget how, I think it has something to do with the robots.txt file. If you tell Google not to index those pages, it won't. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 16:18

I believe that adding the below to the User-agent: * list would block out all AFD nominations. I strongly recomment against this, however. Superm401 | Talk 19:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Disallow: /Wikipedia:Articles for deletion

Why you say "we", kemosabe? Being able to search for the content of AfDs on Google seems useful to me. Misplaced Pages isn't this guy's SEO consultant, and we're not responsible for Google's results. — mendel ☎ 17:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I don't see any reason to do a favor for someone who unapologetically "I tried to get a listing on wikipedia for my company". Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. If all changes made in response to his request haven't been reversed, I urge an admin to do so now. Superm401 | Talk 19:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Superm401. I personally wouldn't worry about this guy's request.--Alabamaboy 19:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I concur with Alabama boy, he tried for some free advertising, shot himself in the foot instead. This is not a trade directory. Not our problem. Giano | talk 19:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

- So if, say, your fiance(e) naively creates a Wikipage about him/herself, and some obnoxious wiki-editor deletes it with comments about "another stupid loser", then it's OK that this shows up higher on a prospective employer's Google search than the resume he/she created, and continues to do so for months? Misplaced Pages's ever-growing Web search presence may entail some responsibilities that get very muddy. - DavidWBrooks 01:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Other than acnolageing it's existance google does not index Special:Log so your senario is imposible. Keeping negative stuff from comeing up when people google you name is going to be much harder as time goes on. I don't think there is much we can do about this.Geni 03:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Adding to what Geni said: It's unfortunate, and at the same time it's not our problem to solve. Google result priority does not correspond to accuracy, and improving Google's algorithms is what Google does as a business, and teaching people to interpret Google results is hardly within Misplaced Pages's scope. In any case, someone Googling someone before hiring them is not looking for their resume, they're looking for the other things about them on the Web, and if "some stranger on Misplaced Pages said they were a loser" is part of a hiring decision there's nothing we can do to fix the long series of misconceptions at work. Besides, that example is something that has not happened, and the thing that has happened was someone who lost while trying to game the system. (Anyhow, there's already a policy in place to take care of that obnoxious editor.) — mendel ☎ 03:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Will people care that some random guy on the Internet thinks X is a stupid loser? Will anybody who matters care? ~~ N (t/c) 14:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Couple more thoughts: First, we're probably going to see a little rush of these because Google recently made some drastic changes to PageRank, and a lot of SEO techniques don't work anymore, and our PageRank is pretty much the antithesis of SEO. Second, since Joyous was wondering how to respond, the bottom of every Google results page has a "Dissatisfied?" link, and that's where the complainant should direct his complaint. — mendel ☎ 03:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed changes to Template:Test

I'm attempting to restructure test messages and other template/mediawiki messages to encourage useful contributions, rather than giving the newcomer no other option but to vandalize. This includes changing messages so they say "Please do this" rather than "Don't do this" (in the same way that "Keep off grass" or "Do not press the red button" don't work too well). Please leave comments at the link above. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 00:02

User:72.144.92.64

72.144.92.64 (talk · contribs)

This person is creating tons of one-sentence stubs about supposedly famous mathematicians. Could someone knowledgeable check them for veracity? User:Zoe| 04:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

They look real to me and google. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 04:11
- Existence is not encyclopedicality. User:Zoe| 04:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  - The ones I checked were all notable people, such as science academy leaders. We are lacking in that area. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 04:35
    - On his talk page, he says he'll provide references for them. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-30 04:36

Sounds new and enthusiastic. Zoe, please welcome them and encourage them to create a username ;-) - David Gerard 10:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I recognized two of the mathematicians that the anon wrote about: Mykhailo Krawtchouk and Nikola Obreshkov. Both seem notable enough. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Njyoder Personal attack parole violation

I've just blocked him for 24 hours for these two: . Please keep an eye on him - he's quite capable of contributing with thought, but the personal attack parole was put in there for good reason - David Gerard 18:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Introducing a brief artificial delay before newly-registered usernames can edit

Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Artificial delay .28very brief block.29 after username registration

-- Curps 20:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Template:Otheruses protected

Because the template is extremely visible (used on over 2,000 pages), has been hit with vandalism lately, and is rarely edited (outside of vandalism, last edit was in July), I've protected it. Ral315 (talk) 06:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Users:Bakewell Tart and Crusading Composer

Am very concerned about Bakewell Tart and Crusading Composer - both were involved in a bad faith nomination (overwhelmingly efeated) to get the Robert Steadman article deleted, both have continued (particulalry CC) to try to alter the article to show the subject in a negative light. COuld they be looked into? Are they the same person? Vhjh 08:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I welcome any enquiry. I reccommend that an aadministrator also looks very carefully at the creation entries to the Robert Steadman article: 19.06 217.42.67.174 creates the page and also adds Steadman's name to other sites. This continues until 09.07 when the editorial duties are taken over by Robeaston and Vjhj who also edit other pages either relating to Mr Steadman or adding his name. A series of other anonymous posters( 86.136.163.90, 86.133.71.137, 86.136.239.9, 86.136.167.52, 86.137.64.72, 86.136.235.69) then add further details to the article. What is noteworthy though is that each time the poster is only active for one day but in that time posts many edits to the steadman article and also Steadman related sites. One anonymous editor even finds the time to remove 'vandalism' from Vhjh's page. These editors claim that they have no relationship to each other or to Mr Steadman, but obviously there is some relationship. I am also skeptical that there are a series of people who have no realtionship to Mr Steadman but who have a detailed knowledge of his home town , university and personal life. I'm not claiming that they are ALL Mr Steadman but it wouldn't surprise me. I am also concerned that the various editors have the same style: call anyone who touches their site a bully or a stalker, whilst belittling THEM and constantly calling for administrators to ban them. Anyone who follows the links to the TES website will find that these are the very traits that the poster calling himnself Rob Steadman is accused of. I believe that this article should be re referred for deletion as a vanity article and the work of sock puppets. Mel Ettis claims that it was a bad faith nomination, but at least two administrators believed that there was enough reason for referring it. I was NOT involved in the original RfD, I was neutral until the editors above started abusing the page. It had been shortened (as recommended by an administrator) and was fine, however, when it attracted some positive responses the page was restored to it's full length. My take on it is that it is the work of mainly one person who reserves complete editorial control. When others added to it they asked for it to be protected, but when they realised that they could not have it permanently protected as a shrine, they preferred to have it deleted - especially as it had been recommended that it wasn't notable enough. To prevent vandalism, they then shortened the article, but once they started to get support they restored it with a vengeance. Why am I bothering to bang my head against a brick wall over this? It's not a vendetta, I just want the creator of this article to realise that it's not THEIR sole property. Once again, I have had a perfectly reasonable and accurate edit deleted for the sole reason that it portrays the subject in a bad light. If just cannot see how anyone else cannot see that this IS a real example of a classic vanity article -from the way it was created right up to the continuimg attempts to keep it free of anything that doesn't show the subject in the most postive light.Crusading composer 18:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

No Crusading composer it is a vendetta on your part and that of Bakewell Tart. Today you bagen a new section for REVIEWS and yet only put in one review which you only included the negative points. You have said some of your knowledge and interest comes from the TES messageboard? I wonder if you had any knowledge of earlier vandalism to the page which made reference to the TES messageboards? admin really need to look at the behaviour of this editor - they are fixated an they are out to get the subject of this article - to the point of asking for a second AfD a day after the first had been rejected because it was a bad faith nomination. Vhjh 19:08, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Today Crusading composer has accused me of being Robert Steadman and questioned Mel Etitis ]neutrality! Vhjh 21:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what's going on here, but this appears to be some sort of food fight between two editors. Either or both of you might consider availing yourselves of the suggestions in Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. · Katefan0 21:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Katefan - what is going on is that Crusading composer knows nothing about the subject and yet wants to make everything with a highly biased POV - all negative! It is a personal vendetta against the subject of the article - he has accused me of being Robert Steadman and has accused one of the admin (Mel Etitis) of not being neutral by removing an AfD because Mel and Steadman might have met at uni 20+ years ago. Crusading composer is a vandal with a grudge and some serious invetigation needs to go on about his behaviour. Last night a splattering of very minor edits to other subjects was the first postive thing Crusading composer has done on Misplaced Pages.CC is either an adult with a grudge or, more possibly, a school kid (as Mr. Steadman teaches). Really very pathetic behaviour. Vhjh 21:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

NO! What is going on here is that Vhjh is deliberately trying to wind me up. I have been invited to join in in redrafting the article. Vhjh is unhappy about that - I have as much right as anybody to edit that article as long as my edits are accurate. As far as being childish and holding a grudge: this person is obviously looking at my contributions and changing them for the sake of it. I am to assume that this person knows more about shield generators than myself and that they have some kind of right to decide what is relevant or not. Vhjh is also reverting my user page. This activity has only one purpose, to make me react so that he can point to my behaviour and say that my edits have no credibility. Make no mistake, vhjh is a very clever and manipulative person with an agenda to remove anyone who tries to 'play with his toys'.Crusading composer 22:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Entries on Template:In the News

After User:Silsor removed the entry on ITN about "President George W. Bush nominates Samuel A. Alito, Jr to the United States Supreme Court"., we both got into a discussion about the quote on Misplaced Pages:In the news section on the Main Page that says "It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest."

My question: is there any sort of good way one can determine if a news story qualifies for that criteria so one can add it to ITN, or remove an entry if it does not fit? Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It's unclear how the reconsecration of a church in Germany, or terrorist attacks in India, are of more international importance or interest than a nomination to the Supreme Court. Of the current pages, only the hurricane and the earthquake clearly meet this criterion. I can see why you would want a variety of regions of the world represented, but if this is the point it would be better to remove the oldest news item for the United States, about the supercomputer, and replace it with the newer one. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

- I don't see how we don't remove some older ones, even if it means replacing a United States story with a story about a different region of the world. And having 7 entries on (as I saw earlier today) is not the solution. I believe that Supreme Court nominations, confirmations, and deaths are all inherently notable, because United States laws affect other nations as well in the form of international, especially internet, commerce. Ral315 (talk) 20:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not from the United States, but considering the way the United States imposes itself on the rest of the world I'd say a nomination to the US Supreme Court is notable enough to be at the top of ITN. Coffee 16:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Deciding the balance between notability within a region and the number of regions mentioned isn't always easy. What I do on Portal:Trains/Trains news (which is transcluded onto Portal:Trains) is list exactly the most recent six rail transport news items, regardless of the region, but try to stick to the more notable news events that occur. For example, right now I've got two US events, and one event each from India, Japan, China and Italy. I've had as many as four events from one country listed there before (there is an amazing amount of Indian rail news on Google News), but that's more the exception than the rule. My guideline for Trains news weighs notability more heavily than regionality, which means that some days will seem unbalanced toward a particular region. But if one region is producing more notable news than another, why not list them? The region balance will change as more news happens, especially with a strict number of events in the news section. slambo 16:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Proxy vandal at Mammal

Someone using Tor has been repeatedly vandalizing, using even IPs that have been previously indef blocked. They are getting the IPs from http://proxy.org/tor.shtml I'm going to wikify and block them. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-31 21:04

Brion says he blocked the whole list. Unfortunately, these are continually updated. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-31 21:11

Temporary undeletion for transwikification

Before it was deleted, this article was copied and pasted by an anonymous user to (bizarrely) Wikibooks. Naturally, the article has come up for deletion at Wikibooks. Several editors have expressed the desire to have the article transwikified to Wiktionary, for incorporation into various WikiSaurus articles, just as the list of slang terms for the human penis has already been incorporated into WikiSaurus:penis. (Wiktionary is the logical place for slang word dictionary articles, and WikiSaurus is the logical place for lists of synonyms. There's no reason for either Wikibooks or Misplaced Pages to host slang dictionaries and thesauri.) Rather than transiwiki the copy, which was itself not a proper transwiki (the anonymous user did not include author information), I intend, if there are no objections, at some point within the next couple of days to transwiki the original, complete with its edit history. This will involve temporarily undeleting the original, so that the 'bot can access the wikitext and the edit history, and then re-deleting the article. Uncle G 20:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

No objection whatsoever. I myself did something similar with some webcomic articles that were deleted on AFD. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 20:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's ready to be transwikied now, I've undeleted the full history of the articles and left protected. Titoxd 22:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I've transwikied the original articles to Wiktionary, for incorporation into WikiSaurus, and restored Body parts slang to how it was. Uncle G 00:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Threats against me

An IP user from Queen's University, User:130.15.82.217 is making physical threats against me, probably because I added a speedy deletion template to List of foods that cause unpleasant urine odors which he/she created. He/she has also created the attack page List of locations at which I will punch Andrew pmk. See diffs: . Andrew pmk | Talk 22:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Blocked. Sigh... ~~ N (t/c) 22:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Infinitely blocking IPs

On Special:Ipblocklist, there are currently at least 2 IPs indefinitely blocked just today, for legal threats and vandalism, respectively. Am I right in saying that IPs should not be blocked for long periods? Would anyone object to a bot that would undo all infinite IP blocks that don't contain the word "proxy"? ~~ N (t/c) 22:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

A year is a very long time on the internet. Blocking an IP that is not a proxy for longer than a year is stoooopid. People change their jobs, isps and home addresses fairly often. I have no objection to a bot unblocking. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to check if they aren't indeed open proxies before unblocking them? Titoxd 22:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to get that bot to reblock for say 3months - or to list the IP's for manual review? Indef blocks of IP's (other than open proxy) is crazy - but, if we simply unblock, we could be letting a lot of bad guys out of the phantom zone at once. --Doc (?) 22:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege, not a right. I once banned an IP for 24 months for many many months of egregious vandalism. If that IP changes hands 18 months from now, the new owner can ask for a reprieve. However, yeah, the two blocked today should probably not be infinite. --Golbez 22:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

2 years is a very long block. Probably too long in fact. But it's way shorter than infinite. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 23:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I can see no need for a block longer than a year - annually reblocking a recurrent vandal is not exactly ownerous for vandal-fighters. Less hastle than dealing with innocents who inherit the IP. --Doc (?) 23:32, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, I find it difficult to believe that any vandal sits around waiting for two years just to get a chance to come back and make one edit before being blocked again. If they're that determined to vandalize, they would've found a way around the block in any case. --Aquillion 02:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

You two think two years is too long, and you see no need for a block longer than a year? Maybe. But consider that the IP had just come off a three month block, which followed another three month block. Aquillion, if he's willing to wait 3 months each time, why should we wait as well? Strike now, while the iron is hot. We won't have to worry about him for 24 months, unless some admin undid the block without thinking. Will he be back in 24 months? Hopefully not. If not, then everyone wins. --Golbez 18:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

And PS, I noted the block both here and on AN/I, because it was such a radical move. I had originally made it indefinite, they convinced me that a year was better. I found a middle ground. --Golbez 18:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Blocked? Someone with my IP has been blocked from editing. Err... now what do I do? --Goyanks193 02:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I see no harm in reducing all these to a brief time perhaps a month at most. Most of them will have moved on. Fred Bauder 03:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Petition for help

The following was placed in my user talk page. My attempted translation follows, feel free to fix anything I may have gotten wrong. I've informed the user that there is not a lot that I, as an administrator in the English-language Misplaced Pages, can do about issues in the Spanish-language Misplaced Pages. If someone is also an administrator in the Spanish-language Misplaced Pages, they might want to look into this. I have no independent judgment of the merits of these complaints. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Petición de ayuda

Saludos. Siento no poder expresarme con corrección en tu idioma, pero me dirigo a ti, porque no sé a quien recurrir y sé que dominas en gran medida el español. Soy un antiguo contribuyente de la Misplaced Pages en español, que hace alrededor de un año volvió a ella. Se encontró entonces con que la Misplaced Pages en español estaba dominada por administradores que violaban sistemáticamente las normas de wikipedia, como la de la neutralidad y la de no borrar informacion útil. Me he rebelado contra su censura, y he reivindicado el sentido original de las normas. Uno de mis contertulios en mi página de discusión y que ha renunciado a participar en la wikipedia hispana resume así la situación que se vive en la enciclopedia en español:

Una vez que me convertí en escritor y no sólo en lector comencé a descubrir la realidad que esconde este proyecto. Ediciones honestas que buscaban enseñar a quienes quisieran aprender fueron eliminadas inmediatamente. Mis intentos de diálogo se vieron contestados por insultos y acusaciones injustos y por la extendida costumbre de recuperar la versión "oficial", es decir, la de eliminar todo incluyendo la corrección de errores ortográficos. Sólo he sido capaz de conseguir algún avance tras interminables discusiones, mediante la búsqueda de docenas de referencias a revistas, periódicos o documentos oficiales capaces de demostrar la insensatez de las críticas absurdas que con frecuencia se hacen y, principalmente, recuperando una y otra vez los datos que se intentan ocultar. Es decir, la cantidad de esfuerzo que hay que hacer es inmensa.

El gran problema es que las causas de la situación son muy profundas. Por ejemplo, es verdad que hay artículos larguísimos que describen cómo aplicar la política de neutralidad pero no hay ningún sitio donde se establezca breve y claramente qué es lo que no se puede hacer. Así es absurdo que se permita eliminar una edición completamente recuperando la versión anterior sin dar ninguna explicación. Si yo añado algo como "el 12 de marzo Aznar dijo que se estaban siguiendo dos líneas de investigación" cualquiera lo eliminará inmediatamente sin dar ningún motivo. Si lo vuelves a añadir y preguntas en la página de discusión por qué lo han borrado, que lo que has escrito es verdad, que se miren los periódicos que tienen edición digital accesible de ese día y todo eso el resultado es que te lo vuelven a quitar. Y no puedes hacer nada salvo volver a recuperarlo hasta que tú o ellos se cansen. Y es absurdo que esto sea así, porque la política de no neutralidad se resume en dos puntos: sólo se pueden incluir (1) hechos objetivos o (2) teorías existentes descritas indicando que son teorías. Si alguien elimina una contribución que no es puro vandalismo debería justificar que lo ha hecho porque no es ni un hecho objetivo ni una teoría existente. Si no se está eliminando el esfuerzo de una persona que ha querido participar en la Misplaced Pages lo que desincentiva dicha participación cuando se debería fomentar ya que en realidad se trata de generar un enciclopedia seria.

Yo no quiero rendirme. Y no he dejado de debatir con esos administradores. En mi página personal, he escrito un ensayo donde denunció las practicas que se cometen en la wikipedia hispana. Lo puedes leer en ]

Temporalmente he conseguido algunas mejoras, consiguiendo, por ejemplo, que algunos usen la página de discusión antes de borrar lo que no les gusta o no concuerda con su ideas. Ayer estaba añadiendo información al artículo del 11-M y acababa de discutir con un administrador que quería borrar el artículo dedicado a Leonor de Borbón Ortiz, primogénita de los Príncipes de Asturias, Felipe de Borbón y Letizia Ortiz, y segunda en la línea sucesoria de la Corona española. Este administrador decía que en la wikipedia no debía haber artículos sobre la recién nacida (cuando otras wikipedias lo tienen). Puedes leerlo en Discusión:Leonor de Borbón Ortiz. Ahora no puedo escribir en la wikipedia hispana, porque otro administrador, llamado FAR, que se declara amigo del administrador con que discutía, me han bloqueado la IP, tachándome de vándalo. No me dejan ni el derecho a réplica. ¿Puedes ayudarme, por favor? ¿Con quién debo hablar para solucionar esta situación?

Usuario:Visitante, 12:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC).

Translation

Petition for help

Greetings. I'm sorry that I cannot express myself correctly in your language, but I'm directing myself to you, because I don't know to whom to turn and I know that you have a general mastery of Spanish. I'm an old contributor to the Spanish Misplaced Pages, who has returned to it after about a year. I found then that the Spanish Misplaced Pages was dominated by administrators who systematically violated the norms of Misplaced Pages, such as neutrality and not erasing useful information. I rebelled against this censura , and have attempted to reestablish the original sense of the norms. One of my contertulios on my discussion page that he had renounced participating in the Spanish Misplaced Pages and summarized as follows the situation that exists in the Spanish Misplaced Pages:

Once I became a writer and not just a reader I began to discover the reality that this project hides. Honest edits that seek to teach whomever wishes to learn were eliminated immediately. My intentions of dialogue were responded to with insults and unjust accusations and by the widespread custom of recovering the "oficial" version, that is to say, that of eliminating all including the correction of orthographicos errors. I have only been able to achieve some gain after interminable discussions, by means of searching for dozens of references to magazines, newspapers, or official documents capable of demonstthe the foolishness of the absurd criticisms that they often make and, principally, recovering one time or another the facts that they want to hide. That is to say, the amount of force I must bring to bear is immense.

The big problem is that the causes of the situation are very deep. For example, it's true that there are long articles that describe how to apply the policy of neutrality but there is no place where it is established briefly and clearly what it is that one is not allowed to do. In this manner, it is absurd that is is permissible to eliminate an edit completely, recovering the earlier version without giving any explanation. If I add something, whatever, like "On March 12 Aznar said that they were following two lines of investigaion", it will be eliminated immediately without anyone giving a reason. If you come to add it and ask on the dicussion page why it was erased, when what was written was true, that if one reads the newspapers that have accessible online editions for that day and all that, the result is that you come to the point of quitting. And you can't do anything except return to recover it until you or they get tired. And it's absurd that it is like this, because the non-neutrality policy can be summed up in two points: one can only include (1) objective facts or (2) existing theories, described with an indication that the ary theories. If someone eliminates a contribution that is not pure vandalisme, they ought to justificar what they've done on the basis that it is not an objective fact or an existing theory. If not, they are eliminateing the effort of a person who has wanted to participate in Misplaced Pages, which discourages participation when they ought to encourage it, given that in reality one is dealing with generating a serious encyclopedia.

And I don't want to surrender. And I haven't ceased to debate with those administrators. On my personal page, I've written an essay that denounces the practices committed in the Spanish Misplaced Pages. You can read it at .

Temporarily, I've achieved some improvements, achieving, for example, that some use the discussion page before erasing what they don't like or that does not accord with their ideas. Yesterday I was adding information to the article 11-M (11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings)and I had just argued with an administrator who erased the article dedicated to Leonor de Borbón Ortiz, primogenitor (first son) of the Prince and Princess de Asturias, Felipe de Borbón and Letizia Ortiz, and second in line of succession for the Spanish Crown. This administrator said that the Misplaced Pages oughtn't have articles about the recently born (when other Wikipedias have them). You can read it in Discusión:Leonor de Borbón Ortiz. Now I can't write in the Spanish Misplaced Pages, because of another administrayor, called FAR, who is a self-declared friend of the other administrator with whom I argued, has blocked my IP, accusing me of vandalism. They don't even give me the right of reply. Can you help me please? With whom do I have to speak to solve this situation?

Usuario:Visitante, 12:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC).

I think this should be discussed at Spanish Misplaced Pages or at Meta. English Misplaced Pages can't help. / Yo pienso que este debe ser discutido a la Misplaced Pages español o a Meta. La Misplaced Pages inglés no puede ayudar. ~~ N (t/c) 13:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Before expressing any opinion, please, give a look to the user page of this person, who also is registered in the Spanish Wiki like Usuario:El Rei. Even more, above you have a coment User talk:Jmabel#fascists coming... from other user about this user. So, you'll see. Greetings from PACO 13:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Why bother with Arbitration?

Are Arbitration decisions enforced? In Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute#Remedies are several remedies, but the corresponding Enforcement section does not list any actions. Other participants vanished, but User:William M. Connolley has been in violation since shortly after the decision. According to his parole:

"… William M. Connolley is hereby prohibited for six months from reverting any article relating to climate change more than once per 24 hour period (vandalism excepted). Each such revert must be backed up by a talk page comment where a reputable source is cited or asked for as appropriate (see #Relative value of references). This includes but is not limited to all pages in Category:Climate change. Violations of this order should be treated as WP:3RR violations and administrators not directly involved in the dispute should act accordingly. …"

(emphasis is in original) — (SEWilco 15:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC))

— (SEWilco 15:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC))

This arbitration ruling should be enforced. The key point, though, is that the user must not revert any climate article more than once per 24 hour period. He appears to have done this a few times in the edits you list (such as the two Oct. 19 Scientific opinion on climate change edits) but most of those edits seem to be permissible b/c he only did one revert per day. The problem with all of the edits, though, is that he didn't list why he did the revert on any of the articles' talk page. I will drop a line to him about posting on the talk page. I will also keep an eye on this and if I see him do more than 1 revert per day on any article I will treat it as a WP:3RR. If anyone feels this should be done differently, please let me know. --Alabamaboy 15:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- See discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested of interpretation of the judgement paragraph. Rd232 16:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
It should be noted that this matter has been recently raised (and debated) at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested, where the large table above can also be found. It is curious that SEWilco decided to paste the entire table of alleged infringements here, rather than link to the existing debate. Rd232 16:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- Wish I'd had that info before.--Alabamaboy 16:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- The above list are cases where the required Talk page was not updated or in a few cases the page is not obvious. The key point is that "Each such revert must be backed up by a talk page comment where a reputable source is cited or asked for as appropriate (see #Relative value of references)." This obviously refers to every reversion, a separate restriction from the 24 hour rule. (SEWilco 16:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC))

Is it really appropriate for this to be cross-posted like this? The reason we have pages like Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested is so this kind of issue doesn't have to constantly come up on the Administrator's noticeboard; and this is getting discussion on RfAr/AER. There's no need to have it here, too, especially not if it's going to involve that pagelong cut-and-pasted table. --Aquillion 17:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, double posting it is a waste of our time and space, so now that there is a link to the exact same thing on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Admin enforcement requested, everyone is alerted to the issue and can discuss and deal with it in the right place. A simple note here pointing to the discussion would have been a much better idea. - Taxman 17:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge request

Hi, folks. I hope I'm doing this at the right place, but it didn't seem to fit at WP:RM. A while back, I created Lengths of science fiction series/temp to work out a table format for Lengths of science fiction series. A few other editors helped, and eventually I put the table on the main page. The /temp page probably ought to be deleted, but I gather that its edit history ought to be merged with that of the main article. Would an admin be so kind as to take care of this for me? Thank you very much. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

In this case I'm not so sure that it would be a good idea. Both articles were being changed over the two days, and so checking the diffs between them will look very odd. My recommendation is that the /temp page is moved to a subpage of the talk and perhaps blanked. violet/riga (t) 21:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I just tried to do that, but the wiki software wouldn't let me. Perhaps it needs an admin to do it. (By the way, I came here after asking what should be done here and here on the Help desk, and this was the answer I eventually got.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Er... should I put the request to move the /temp article to a subpage of Talk:Lengths of science fiction series at WP:RM? 'Cause I can't do it myself... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

User:24.88.252.207

User:24.88.252.207 - continues to re-add the comment

"The company is particularly noted for its low level of customer service, among the worst in the cable industry, and for employing criminals. Several senior Charter executives received felony fraud convictions in 2003."

or derivations thereof to Charter Communications. A few users that watch this page continue to either revert the statements or delete the statements. The user has recieved warnings on User_talk:24.88.252.207 but to no avail. The user has only targeted this page, as viewed on User:24.88.252.207 Contributions the article has been growing slowly but steadily over the last few weeks, despite these statements. Also today Nov 2, they have struck again but from another IP 152.23.78.227.One attempt to report on WP:VIP, I received a hand slap about the page being for persistient vandalism. I'm not looking for a resolution, but more for if I'm approching this situation the correct way. Thanks! J\/\/estbrook 00:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You could try discussing the sentence on talk. It doesn't seem to have even been mentioned. I agree that it's clearly POV, but you should definitely make effort to reach consensus before going elsewhere for assistance. Superm401 | Talk 21:57, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Cross-posted from Misplaced Pages:AMA Requests for Assistance

Gator alerted me to this post on Misplaced Pages:AMA Requests for Assistance:

I have not been posting to Misplaced Pages for very long, but I made a couple of edits to Greek Reconstructionism correcting what I had reason to believe was a factual inaccuracy, and came back a month later to see that my edit had been attacked at length on the article's Talk page by this person who never seems to sign his/her posts and who had gone and somehow discovered my full name and apparently dug up every article I ever wrote to any Hellenic mailing list. This person is making all kinds of untrue statements about me, my group affiliations and my personal biases, and refuses to back up these statements with references or links. He/she keeps referring to past disputes I knew nothing about because they happened long before I was involved in the organizations in question. I have stated that I really don't care about the issue any more and they can edit the page to say whatever they want, but I really would like it if there were some way to remove all the references to my real name, permanently, because it makes me VERY uncomfortable to have my real name published on Misplaced Pages by someone who obviously thinks the very worst of me and will continue to make negative comments about me on the Talk page. I feel like I am being stalked, and I'm scared. Seriously, I edited like two lines of this article and I have already told the person that they should by all means fix it to say whatever they think is accurate, but they won't leave it (or me) alone! What do I do? AdelaMae 09:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I haven't the time to dig into this right now, but it seems that if there's unwanted personal info on a talk page, deletion and selective undeletion of history is in order. If another admin could take a look at this and resolve it quickly, I'm sure it would be much appreciated by AdelaMae. android79 14:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Just saw this post here. I'll do this immediately right now. --HappyCamper 01:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. Would have done this earlier had I not had my internet connection disconnected. --HappyCamper 05:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Iraqi insurgency

One editor has created numerous sockpuppets to try and enforce what seemed at first to be a content dispute. The flood of new editors to revert leaves me wondering if some admins can watch this page. Quadell and others are treating these edits as vandalism and reverting, so please do not block for violation of 3RR. We're blocking the socks indefinitely, please feel free to do so as well. Ral315 (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

NB - there is a parrallel discussion of this on ANI. --Doc (?) 00:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Premature removal of an RfA

User:Nichalp has removed the RfA of User:Aaron Brenneman, even though the end date was November 9, citing some unofficial policy which allows that to happen when apparently his particular position goes ahead in the votes. Where is this policy documented, and why is it being condoned? User:Zoe| 03:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Huh, you just beat me to it. I just wrote a message complaining about the general principle at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship#There's a numeric rule for removing?!. -Splash 03:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The usual rule is that if it's a goddamn obvious pileon, it's a good idea to remove it. This is a judgement call. However, in this case I think Aaron wanted it to run. - David Gerard 07:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt

There is currently a sock invasion at Daniel Brandt, trying to blank the article. I'm going to {{vprotect}} it, but should the IPs blanking it be blocked? I'm not sure if they're open proxies. Titoxd 04:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I've vprotected it. Don't know about the IPs, though. ~~ N (t/c) 04:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It's been protected most of the last three days. Everytime the protection is lifted he starts blanking it. There's more discussion here (talk page)and here. It seeems like he's willing to spend a lot of time blanking it. So do we just leave it protected or unprotect it and keep reverting him? My thought was to make an attempt to keep it open for as long as possible so he can't come back and say we're preventing him from editing. I know he's causing it but I'd like to be on solid ground if we have to keep it perma-protected... Rx StrangeLove 04:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Shoot the IPs on sight, they know what they're doing. If you have an open proxy checker you might apply it to them and block indefinitely if they are. If not, the usual 24 hours would probably do - David Gerard 07:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

He never uses the same IP though, he blanks, we revert, and he's gone for 2-3 minutes reloading. Maybe someone can do a proxy check? Otherwise we're stuck perma-protecting it or locked in a blanking/revert/protect cycle. Rx StrangeLove 07:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

They're web proxies (the ones where you go to a web page and put in the URL instead of configuring in your browser). Most open proxy checkers won't catch them. I already found the URL for at least one of the proxies he used, and I'm preemptively blocking some of the other web proxies of the same kind. If another admin wants to help with the whack-a-mole game, just ask. --cesarb 14:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I blocked most of them. --cesarb 23:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Uh, it seems to me that D. Brandt's biggest complaint is that he does not want to show up in search engines - a privacy thing. Why don't you put together a page formatting template for cases like this which allows the sharing of own meta tags and robots.txt file which keeps google, msn and yahoo spiders, etc from indexing the page? In this way, you maintain fidelity to the wiki mission of information, but you don't create needless hassles for D. Brandt. Rex071404 07:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Just wait untill someone tried to insists that such a template was insetered on jew.Geni 09:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Procedural question

What's the proper procedure in this situation? A user has been blocked for a short period by another admin. The admin posted the reason why on the user's talk page, with a link to an example offending edit. The user has edited the admin's signed posting to link to a different edit. It's been reverted a couple of times, but he's nothing if not persistant. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 04:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hypothetically, I'd say protect the page, and unprotect it when the block expires. Without knowing the specifics of this case, I can't say if this is appropriate or not, or if other measures should be taken. --Carnildo 05:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That's what I did. It's User talk:Zephram Stark, in case anyone is interested. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages watch

Seems like some nut has sent an open letter to Jimbo. Let's all point and laugh! - Ta bu shi da yu 07:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It's Daniel Brandt / User:Daniel Brandt. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It's reassuring to know that the subject of an article has been unable to successfully be the final arbiter of its content. Pity about the protection, mind. Range block? Or are they not from a range? -Splash 11:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

"In the end, I remained unsatisfied with my ability to influence this article about me, particularly with respect to the sources cited." Poor baby. Superm401 | Talk 15:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are they all so fond of the Jimbo with babes on boat pic? - David Gerard 11:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we should find a picture of Daniel Brandt with some babes to put on our page about him. hmm. Doc (?) 12:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sex r teh evils. ~~ N (t/c) 14:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep it up; my attorney loves this stuff. Something about "prima facie evidence of incompetence and bias on the part of anonymous amateur editors at Misplaced Pages." Daniel Brandt 15:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That looks like a legal threat to me.Doc (?) 16:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

A whiny and baseless one at that. He can cry about this until the cows come home. How ironic... he comes here complaining about an article about him and he ends up officially becoming an internet troll. Linuxbeak | Talk 16:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Here is the response you crave: (RESPONSE). HTH. silsor 15:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe you are already familiar with WP:NLT. As you are in violation of that rule, I will block you. Broken S 16:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

So there are incompetent and amateur editors on Misplaced Pages. How is that relevant to any legal action... or even news at all? ~~ N (t/c) 23:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt is unprotected now per the talk page. Over the last three days he's blanked it every chance he had, we'll see if it continues. See the discussion two sections up as well. Rx StrangeLove 16:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

If he blanks it again, I'll be more than happy to block him for an extended period of time. I also forsee an RFC in the near future. Linuxbeak | Talk 16:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I just had an idea. I'm going to try getting his side of the story, and I'm going to actually try working with him. If he's willing to listen to reason, perhaps we can actually make this situation work in everyone's favor; he becomes content (or at least more content than previously) with the articles regarding him, Misplaced Pages inproves an article, and everyone goes home happy. It might work. Linuxbeak | Talk 16:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, not to be a wet blanket, but is there a good reason for the abandonment of WP:CIV? By the contributors in this section, I mean. Lead by example, etc etc. - brenneman 22:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I suspect his requests will include breaking NPOV, permanent protection, and/or deletion of the article, none of which will be accepted. I foresee an RfAr, or a "ban by the Misplaced Pages community." ~~ N (t/c) 23:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Now the article is on VfD (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Daniel Brandt). The nominator had no edits before, so I'm guessing it's Brandt himself. Broken S 23:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Wiki glitch?

My test2 message here (user talk for 207.142.131.239) in response to this edit seems to have caused consternation: it appears that the Wiki has directed some users not at that IP address to the offending user's talk page with a new message bar, resulting in some innocent and unconnected bystanders being offended. Someone later posted this to the IP's talk page - is that analysis correct? - and if so is there anything here worth investigating further? I don't think it's anything too serious, and I have tried damage limitation by posting conciliatory messages at my talk page and by communicating directly with the two affected logged-in contributors. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This bug has existed for more than a year, although it seems to occur less frequently than before. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Main Page vandalism

There's a penis on the Main Page. Somebody do something about it -- Gurch 12:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, don't worry, it's been fixed -- Gurch 12:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No, the featured article on the main page is supposed to not be protected even if it gets George W. Bush levels of vandalism. I'm unprotecting. --cesarb 13:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The picture is, though - David Gerard 14:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Specifically, a protected copy of the article is made for use on the main page, but the main article is not protected. David Gerard is correct that the image should always be protected. Superm401 | Talk 15:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalizing Template:Foreignchar

Many many different user names (I personally caught 5 just from recent changes page) are removing this template and other notes about foreign character in city/location names. User names include: User:Jeaijij, User:Agraman, User:Oagafauou, User:Diacrit (now reverted and blocked by User:Fire Star), User:Qesecaue, etc. It's persistent and continues from early morning. Can you do something about? Renata3 22:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, it's getting seriously not funny: Uefot, Huaelo, Bifo, Timoa, Feoouubiao, Eooaqinol, Xeuuces - all users, made 1 edit, the same type vandalism and I have skimmed only through 500 recent edits.

I've reverted and blocked the ones I could find, but we seriously need checkuser here to block the IP doing the damage. «»Who ?¿? 03:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I've systematically blocked all of these sockpuppets up to the present time (to the best of my knowledge) and reverted all of their edits that I found. Including socks blocked by others, there are at least 120 or more. There's little doubt that this is the same person as Iraqi insurgency, Sealand, Úbeda, believed by some to be Wik. He's using open proxies, which are troublesome to deal with.

At some point very soon (maybe yesterday), Misplaced Pages is going to need some actual real-live staff to manage the website properly... not just editing admins and operating system sysadmins, but "user relations" personnel. Misplaced Pages needs at least one full-time "vandal accountability" person who would spend all day every day blocking open proxies, tracing IPs, and filing ToS violation notices. The next fundraising drive needs to raise funds to hire such a person.

Nearly every online multi-player game out there has a sizeable full-time staff to ensure that gameplay runs smoothly and abuses are reined in, and that there's a level playing field that's fair for all. In a certain sense, Misplaced Pages is very much like an online multi-player game: we all log in and interact, engage in conflicts and resolve them. The difference is, the product of this gameplay isn't virtual castles and treasure, it's something that exists in the real world. However, no online multi-player game can thrive in the long run if only the players themselves try to ensure that it runs smoothly; all of them use behind-the-scenes staff.

Misplaced Pages will fail if that level playing field isn't maintained. If valuable contributors perceive that vandals and sockpuppets are running amok and unilaterally imposing their will, then they'll just walk away from Misplaced Pages. Many people take it for granted that Misplaced Pages is a success, but that's not yet true... it's still a work in progress, and history's final verdict could still be "it was a nice idea on paper, but it didn't work out". If the basic principles of NPOV, consensus, 3RR, dispute resolution, etc. etc. can't be maintained in the face of automated assaults then nothing else matters.

Sometimes, watching the escalating nonsense that we've been facing over the last few months, you feel like asking "who the hell is 'minding the store'?". Right now, the answer very often seems to be "nobody". Instead of losing focus with all sorts of side projects and "sister sites", it's increasingly urgent to shore up the security and integrity of the flagship project, which is by far the most important. I don't know if the powers that be realize what admins on the "front lines" are facing, if they're even aware that things seem to be worsening. As admins we need to have somebody else "minding the store" so we can get back to normal activities instead of all this firefighting. -- Curps 11:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Boothy443 Indef. blocked

also posted at Misplaced Pages:Account_suspensions

19:24, November 4, 2005 Jtkiefer blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of indefinite (this has gone on long enough, blocked for harassment, entirely ignoring 3RR, incivility, violations of WP:POINT over and over again and many other offenses.)
19:23, November 4, 2005 Jtkiefer unblocked User:Boothy443 (to implement infinite block)
01:31, November 4, 2005 Dmcdevit blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 72 hours (now sending harassing, personal attacks to me by email, as well as the 3RRs and sockpuppet, block extended again)
01:30, November 4, 2005 Dmcdevit unblocked User:Boothy443 (for a longer block)
19:05, November 3, 2005 Dmcdevit blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 48 hours (used a sockpuppet for block evasion, resetting 48 hour block)
19:03, November 3, 2005 Dmcdevit unblocked User:Boothy443 (for longer block)
00:15, November 2, 2005 Dmcdevit blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 48 hours (egregious violation of 3RR as well as lack of civility)
15:35, August 23, 2005 Jimbo Wales blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 17 seconds (annoying gay porn link that embarassed me)
13:43, August 14, 2005 David Gerard blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 48 hours (piles of vandalism as the assorted "IsWayneBradygonnahavetosmackabitch" usernames)
17:04, August 10, 2005 Kbdank71 blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 24 hours (3RR of Benjamin Franklin Bridge, vandalism, was warned)
14:01, July 11, 2005 Talrias blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 24 hours (Inserting links to gnaa/goatse/popup website.)
05:16, June 24, 2005 Radiant! blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 24 hours (Vandalism in the form of persistently re-deleting a VFD'ed article that is now on VFU)
00:54, April 28, 2005 Curps blocked "User:Boothy443" with an expiry time of 24 hours (vandalism)

I have blocked Boothy finally for his latest escapades (stalking editors) compounded with all his previous offenses including but not limited to disruption, flouting 3RR, and that's not even including the link to Jimbo. Jtkiefer ----- 23:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

"Possible trolling". Yep, I guess I was such a terrible guy, like Hitler and Kimer Rouge officials, just for mentioning that possibility after the RfA NO votes....at least Jtkiefer sides with the people who actually are in line/have good faith.Voice of All 23:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I won't miss him. ~~ N (t/c) 23:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I unblocked him. An indefinite block is too severe for this user. I don't think a single admin has the authority to indef block someone except in cases of simple and severe vandalism; if he's so terrible for the project, take him to WP:RFAr. Then there will be no controversy. --Ryan Delaney 23:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

If you don't think an infinite block would be appropriate, surely going back to the pre-existing 72-hour block would be a better solution than unblocking wholesale? Shimgray | talk | 00:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

If another admin would like to reblock him for a shorter time, they are more than welcome to. I'm not familiar enough with the situation to know what length would be appropriate- just that indefinite wouldn't be. --Ryan Delaney 00:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

If you're not familiar enough with the situation, why did you unblock him? User:Zoe| 04:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I put up a one month block for Boothy443.Voice of All 00:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Uh can everyone slow down and talk about this first rather than have a block war. There is no urgency, as he is currently serving (an apparently uncontroversial) 72 hour block. We have that much time, at least, to talk about it. If you are going to unblock, at least leave the original block in place, and if you are going to reblock, at least come talk about it here first. Dmcdevit·t 00:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

See! Er, counting backwards, a lot happened in the five minutes it took me to figure out what was going on and write that. Dmcdevit·t 00:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's what happened to prompt my (three) most recent blocks. First, I blocked him, and another user and an IP, for a 3RR violation, which occured on many pages with upwards of 15+ reverts in all. This was so egregious, especially considering I gave him a warning after he broke the 3RR and he just attacked me on my talk page and continued to revet, that I gave him a 48 hour block. During the block, Boothy came back with a (proven) sockpuppet to continue reverting. I blocked the sock and reset the 48 hour block. He attacked me, and admins in general on his talk page. Then I got an abusive email, telling me I support vandalism, and frankly full of lies (saying I assisted the other party). Accordingly, after three incivil messages on both talk and email, I extended the 48 hour block to 72 hours. That's all I did, and I don't know enough about Boothy's background at the moment to speculate on whether a longer block is necessary. Dmcdevit·t 00:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is attacking your decision to block him here. Except Boothy, anyway. It does sound like his behavior is pretty bad, and I wouldn't shed any tears of Arbcom decided he needs to leave the project. --Ryan Delaney 00:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I was just trying to give context above, hopefully I didn't sound defensive. Dmcdevit·t 00:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Heh, there have been some times when there was no simple or severe vandalism involved where an indefinite block was so blatantly obvious, but Boothy443 is not a case. The arbcom takes weeks to do a case, and the same user can terrorize more people during this time, thus an editor like BigDaddy777 was among those non-vandalizers deserving of a common sense, regular admin unilatteral block. R e dwolf24 (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

(response to Voice of All(MTG)'s 1-month block above): Whoa. Let's enforce the 72 hour block first, and in the meantime, we can discuss things here and come to a consensus. I've gone ahead and unblocked the one-month block and re-blocked for the remainder of the 72 hours. Thoughts? THanks. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 03:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. No need to hurry; there's at least 70 more hours to debate if a longer edit is more appropriate. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 04:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. "this bickering is pointless"(Grand Moff Tarkin ~0 BBY). 70 hours+arbcom will do the trick.Voice of All 04:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You realize how much of an incredible geek it makes you to be able to cite that along with the (fictional) date? (Answer: Only slightly more than me for recognizing the date and identifying it for what it is.) - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 04:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

What in the world is going on here? If you think that arbitration is needed, that's one thing, but this seems to be some kind of bizarre admin vigilantism. How can anyone even vaguely defend a unilateral indefinite block in this instance? This is just completely out of line. john k 05:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it's to get a rush of absolute power? Rex071404 08:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I highly doubt that. Boothy has been a disruptive editor in the past. Although an indefinite block was (IMHO) not necessary, I see where jt is coming from. I think the appropriate action at this time would be to open an RFAr against Boothy. Linuxbeak | Talk 17:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Jtkiefer is empowered to block according to his discretion, and made people aware of a possibly controversial discretionary action. I don't see where "bizarre admin vigilantism" enters into this. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 05:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The indef block was what Jtkiefer thought was a good-faith and appropriate use of admin prerogative. Although I disagree, I am deeply sympathetic to his thinking on this matter I fully respect him as an administrator. Since Boothy is no longer indef blocked, there is no need for this kind of inflammatory language. --Ryan Delaney 11:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Whether or not it was done in good faith (I have no reason to think it was not), it was still highly inappropriate. I have never heard of a long-time user being blocked indefinitely for 3RR violations by unilateral admin action. (Actually, I've never heard of anybody being blocked indefinitely for 3RR violations). As an admin, it wouldn't even vaguely occur to me that this was a potentially appropriate use of my admin powers. The only times that indefinite blocks should be used are in cases of impersonation or otherwise inappropriate user names. I think it is arguable that this can be done for particularly persistent vandals, but beyond that, it is simply not a matter for the discretion of individual admins. In this case, it's simply indefensible, especially since the decision was not made in the heat of passion - Boothy was already blocked for 72 hours, so there was no urgency to the situation. Whatever the motives behind Jtkiefer's decision, the decision itself was so completely out of line that I can't but doubt whether Jtkiefer should be an admin at all. Good faith is completely irrelevant here. What this shows is a complete lack of judgment, and a lack of judgment of this sort is not something I'd want to see in an admin. john k 16:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, why isn't there an RfAr against Boothy yet? The accusations being made seem more than strong enough to bring a case before ArbCom. So why hasn't anybody done this? john k 17:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to see this user blocked indefinitely without a consensus to do so. If y'all can't agree that he needs to be blocked indefinitely, you should definitely file an ArbCom request. Kelly Martin (talk) 16:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Why not block him for 72 hours and proceed with an ArbCom request. If he still persists with vandalism, we can keep on enforcing blocks of 72 hours on him until the Arbcom decision. --Pamri 17:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism is not what Boothy stands accused of. He is accused of, specifically, incivility (of which there is certainly evidence, but which is not normally a blockable offense), 3RR violations (certainly seems to be true), WP:POINT violations (haven't seen specific examples of this), and "stalking other users" (whatever that means). None of these is vandalism - vandalism is just about the least constructive thing one can do on wikipedia, and everybody should be careful before carelessly calling behavior "vandalism" which clearly isn't. john k 06:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I was not clued in on his case. Thanks. --Pamri 06:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at the block log, you will see tht four of his six distinct blocks cited vandalism. I think this vandalism was probably more along the lines of a WP:POINT, than full-on maliciousness. But I'm worried about what has happened here. It would have been clear to me that an indefinite block was never going to stick. I thought (after such an exteme display of your opinion of him) that it would surely go to arbcom if the block didn't stick. What worries me here is that if no one who is so strongly condemning Boothy here feels comfortable enough to take him to ArbCom, then how did anyone feel comfortable enough to impose an indefinite or even month-long block of him. It looks rather hit-and-run. If he needs a ban, or other sanctions, it's what arbcom's for, after all. I'm not out to get him, but after this fiasco (and it was one, with no less than seven admins blocking or unblocking) I would be disappointed if no one opened a case. Dmcdevit·t 07:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you're right that in previous instances vandalism was cited. But it was not cited in this most recent case, which, itself, has only come several months after Boothy's last block. My mistake, but I still think we ought to be careful about using terms like vandalism. I completely agree with the rest of your post. I find the behavior of admins who are willing to impose unilateral indefinite or month-long blocks on users, but who are then not willing to take the time to lay out an arbcom case, to be quite disturbing. john k 19:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree Boothy443 needed a block. However, Jtkiefer has no authority for an indefinite block. I consider it very important that admins feel bound to policy. This is the second time Jtkiefer has blatantly disregarded policy and acted as a law unto himself. We have an arbcom for a reason, and the only authority for indef blocks are the arbcom and Jimbo. I would even be uncomfortable with unilateral 1-month blocks issued by Jtkiefer, but at least this would be within policy. This should stop here. Imho, there is no reason Jtkiefer should not block for a shorter period first, say a couple of days, and come to this noticeboard for second opinions. I would strongly recommend a voluntary parole on Jtkiefer's part to act like this in the future: If you block someone for a week, you have a week to figure out whether the block should be extended. Why would you want to make that decision alone, in the heat of the moment? Jtkiefer is not under voluntary parole, but under obligation as per policy to issue no blocks longer than one month to established editors. I am not questioning his good faith. But it does appear that he has a distorted image of his task and his authority as an admin. dab (ᛏ) 13:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

To a certain extent I do confer with others (mostly over IRC) as to whether block if I question the merits of a block, that being said I reject the concept of a parole for it especially since very few people ever feel uncomfortable with my blocks and if they ever due I am usually in favor of my block being shortened if I have blocked for an overly long period of time. Jtkiefer ----- 00:00, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, it's not like deleting an image where it can't be undone if another person disagrees. Jtkiefer ----- 01:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could show some sign of understanding the general undercurrent of what people are trying to communicate here. You seem to be saying that it's okay to go too far with blocking, because another admin can come and correct your mistake later. I don't think anyone else shares this view. --Ryan Delaney 01:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I didn't say that at all and I'm sorry if I was vague on that, I'm just saying that I think people are making too big of a deal of it since it's reversible and even if I do make an honest mistake I can easily undue it and several times have after discussing it with other editors who disagreed. I try not to block whenever possible, especially when I'm not entirely sure about the block, and even when necessary it's best when necessary to consult on any block that isn't say a small block for blatant vandalism or whatever. Jtkiefer ----- 03:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

In retrospect I made a mistake of not asking the views of a wider population on the Administrators Noticeboard or one of the other general policy pages on the wiki and the blocking policy goes beyond the particular block itself and why it was implemented. I still defend however that Boothy deserves an indefinite block but now realize that it should probably be done by the arbcom, though no case has been brought up against him yet. In response to the statements that this is not the first time that I have not exactly followed policies to the letter I don't know what to tell you, I am not a perfect editor nor am I a perfect administrator but every single time it has been me acting in good faith and if you really feel so strongly about it you should probably file a RFC. Jtkiefer ----- 05:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Urgent help at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship needed

I followed the instructions and created this: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/JamesMLane,

but when I try to add the link where I am supposed to, I see only this:

"((Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/JamesMLane))" .

Help!

Rex071404 09:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Have you tried curly braces: not for your trousers, but like {{this}}? You also have to get the candidate to answer the three questions at the bottom of the form, otherwise it will be rejected. --Gareth Hughes 13:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The questions are optional; the only requirement is that the user accept his nomination. — Dan | Talk 20:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Last time I checked, James didn't want to be an admin.Karmafist 18:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

He's already declined the nom. -Greg Asche (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Spam

I know Misplaced Pages:Spam is just a guideline, but when does it come to a point whereby we should actively warn people about internal spamming? Jtdirl (talk · contribs) is spamming all Irish Wikipedians about a new TfD vote, having been blatantly aggrevated by the nomination. violet/riga (t) 22:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Really, this is probably no different than Schoolwatch or the various $COUNTRYNAME deletion projects. Make a note of it in the TfD debate, and the closing admin can take that into account. android79 22:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Mentioning it on a noticeboard is fine. Spamming is not right. violet/riga (t) 22:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You're probably right, but the effect is pretty much the same, and the damage has already been done. If you're suggesting that a policy that discourages this behavior should be developed, that's probably a good idea. android79 22:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

That's probably just intruction creep. Most people have lot of talk pages on their watch lists. So unless some effort was made to hide the spaminator's intent with misleading edit summaries, it just drives up participation all around. Rising tide lifts all boat's equally, etc. If thing do start to get out of hand as the result of some spamming, a simple note someplace public (like here) should be enough to cancel it out. Now I'm off to examine TfD...
brenneman 03:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Mexican G's sockpuppetry

From the Block log:

1. 15:43, 5 November 2005 Acetic Acid blocked "User:205.188.116.5" with an expiry time of 3 hours (Mexican G sock - lessened block as this is an AOL proxy)
2. 15:42, 5 November 2005 Acetic Acid unblocked User:205.188.116.5 (Lessening block as I didn't know this was part of an AOL proxy)
3. 15:39, 5 November 2005 Acetic Acid blocked "User:205.188.116.5" with an expiry time of indefinite (Mexican G sock)

This user has been attacking everyone who has blocked him, just look at my block log for examples:

Since he has said that he has no intention of quitting, shouldn't we inform AOL and ask them to ToS him? This is the kind of thing that makes me support Curps's proposal for a full-time paid position to deal with these kinds of things. Titoxd 23:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I have noticed something worrisome: this vandal has used the same AOL IP address (152.163.100.200) as User:Aranda56. See , and note the 18:17–18:29, 5 November 2005 edits are Aranda56 (confirmed here), while the 22:00–22:07, 4 November 2005 edits are the vandal. Although many AOL users use the same proxy IP, this does suggest that the person involved could be someone geographically close to Aranda56, perhaps someone who knows who he is in real life.

Since the "Mexican G" vandal keeps making vague threats with his choice of username (NOBODY MESSES WITH MEXICAN G"S and MEXICAN G"S IS MY NAME REMEMBER IT AS WATCH WHATS GOING HAPPEN and Lets play Attack Misplaced Pages Violently) in addition to the garden variety abuse, this might be a case where AOL should be contacted sooner rather than later. And it should be someone fairly high up at Misplaced Pages... if ordinary users or ordinary admins contact them, we probably wouldn't get the time of day from their low-level customer support staff. -- Curps 02:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I think any admin could contact, cause even though being an admin is no big deal here, it carries a lot of weight elsewhere. Also to Acetic Acid and everyone: Please never block an IP indefinitely unless it's an open proxy. 1) Collateral Damage if its not static, and 2) people change, and although you can block accounts indefinitely, if you block a static IP indefinitely the person can never return. R e dwolf24 (talk) 05:44, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest to everyone this js file by func? It notes on the Block form if it is an AOL IP or not. Very useful, and avoids blocking out half of the AOL users due to their super-proxy system. Bratsche 15:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Please note, i have often found AOL Ips I use when editing via dial-up to be ones thst had been earlier used by various vandals or other users. In a number of cases, these seem to be users who are unlikely to be geographically close to me. I do not think it is a safe conclusion that two AOL users who have used the same AOL IP are geographically close, much leas that they may know each other. DES 00:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way, he just vandalized WP:RFAr/AER: . He has no respect for Misplaced Pages, so I'm really urging the powers up above to consider contacting AOL about this punk. Titoxd 01:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC) More diffs: Titoxd 01:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I just got a email informing about this notice. All I know is that I am (not) that MotherF***er Mexican G and I think I may know what got this user severly mad in the first place. Just less than a week ago I reverted vandalism of Scott Keith by probaly the same user Mexican G say and soon after I got a harrasing email from that user saying that Im something bad is coming to happen and Scott Keith is coming for you in which I ignored. I dont know how CambridgeBayWeather and Titoxd got into this. Probaly blocking the user. Than I noticed the attack user names with me involed and this user name User:GOD BLESS SCOTT KEITH which attacked my user page than I knew that has something do to about me and I got severly streessed about that. Im contacting AOL right after this to try to put a permanent stop on that MF before it gets worse as I think i still got that email around and I belive they will act quickly cause of that. Anyways Im going to be in a very long Wikibreak and going to edit much less as Im getting my cast off from my broken leg tommorrow (which let me to wikipedia in the first place) and I could go out to friends house plus baseball practice starts soon so dont expect me around here --JAranda | watz sup 02:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Updated FSF Address for Misplaced Pages:Text of the GFDL

The FSF has changed the address listed on their licenses from

Copyright (C) 2000,2001,2002  Free Software Foundation, Inc.
59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA  02111-1307  USA
Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
of this license document, but changing it is not allowed."

Copyright (C) 2000,2001,2002  Free Software Foundation, Inc.
51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA  02110-1301  USA
Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.

Can an admin make the change? Superm401 | Talk 04:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Duly updated. -Greg Asche (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

User:CJK

This guy has repeatedly reverted articles, removing sections not agreeing with his political opinions, while labelling legitimate sources he dislike as propaganda, and refused to listen to compromise on talk pages. In his user page, he spreads his propaganda and accused wikipedia of harboring 'anti-Americanism', and uses it to justify his actions. .

Have you raised this issue on his talk page? If so, a Misplaced Pages:RfC may be appropriate. Superm401 | Talk 05:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Prüm

Could sombody take a look at todays history of Prüm? Looks like User:Akso, User:Geromeier, User:Pavel Pipovic, User:Ackermann, User:Ludowick and User:Kobiyashi are one and the same - which would put this person well over three reverts in 24 hours. Andreww 10:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

This is the "anagram vandal" (no longer using anagrams), who also hit Iraqi insurgency, Sealand, Empire of Atlantium, Úbeda and German pages using {{Foreignchar}}. So far there have been almost 150 sockpuppets, but at the moment all have been blocked and their edits reverted. We can probably expect more though. -- Curps 18:44, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Republika_Srpska&diff=0&oldid=27531372

There appears to be a POV dispute over 8000+ bytes. Can someone please interfere aproporately? --Cool Cat 18:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Protected. It should be unprotected by another adminstrator once the edit war subsides. Titoxd 00:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a proposal on the talk page of the article. Does anyone mind having another pair of eyes over it? Titoxd 01:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Sockpuppets User:Hal jordan, User:Kilowog

Persistent vandal (possibly User:Nick lantern) of Jack Thompson and George W. Bush creating new accounts. See diff, and block indefinitely on sight. - Roy Boy 23:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Please check Mr. Tibbs with a sockpuppet inquiry.

vandal-warning for todays FA

Arsenal F.C. being todays FA will likely attract an enormous amount of vandalism, even for a FA. It has already had its fair share and even been locked for a short time. But as we should try keeping todays FA open, I unlocked it and hope people can keep an extra eye out. Especially when the kids in Britain, many with strong opinions on the subject, wake up in a few hours.... Shanes 00:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Remember that as a rule of thumb the daily FA is always a target for vandalism. But at the same time, we do have the informal policy that the daily FA should never be protected because it is also designed to promote the idea the Misplaced Pages is a place where anybody can edit. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 02:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
- I know all about todays FA being target for vandalism, but agree in keeping them unlocked (I wasn't the one locking it earlyer). But I'm quite positive this article will set some kind of record in being vandalised when the UK-kids wake up. I'll actually be surprised if we get through the day without locking it from time to time. Hopefully I'm wrong. But we'll see. Shanes 03:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  - Is the image properly locked? - David Gerard 11:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    - As a total aside, I believe that David's contempt for the edit summary is simply because he gets a kick out of forcing us to look at every single diff for the important ones. - brenneman 11:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
      - argh. I don't have contempt for it, I just, er, forget a lot. I will try to do better. How's this? - David Gerard 12:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
        argh. That one had the perverse effect of making my look at the diff even though I knew it wouldn't be important. My head hurts. - brenneman
  - I don't think it's a record. Cheese (Friday Nov 4) had substantially more vandalism, looks like. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

excessively harsh blocks for minor vandalism?

Earlier this morning, Davidcannon (talk · contribs) blocked 220.236.16.19 (talk · contribs) and 144.139.30.93 (talk · contribs) for an entire month for single edits of vandalism, without warning. Since that was far too harsh, I have unblocked those two IPs.

If there is more to this situation than I am aware of, please let me know. --Ixfd64 21:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that both IPs vandalised Fiji-related topics, I'm assuming that Davidcannon thought they were sockpuppets of somebody, and hence felt no need to warn them. However, I don't know this, since looking at Davidcannon's talk page, it doesn't appear Ixfd64 talked to him before unblocking. --Scïmïłar 21:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Yikes, not even I do that. Notices are required on IP blocks of that length. --Golbez 21:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

- It does seem a little harsh. I've left a note on Davidcannon's talk page; hopefully he can clear things up.--Scïmïłar 21:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

- - Thank you for letting me know. You're right, both instances of vandalism were to Fiji-related articles - and there have been a number of such attacks of late. I thought there might be some sort of vandalism campaign going on, so I decided to nip it in the bud. I'll take your point, though: I probably did over-react. I won't be so rash from now on. David Cannon 23:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Anagram vandal IP address

The "anagram vandal" (who now rarely uses anagrams anymore) slipped up in his latest series of reverts: one edit was made with an IP address instead of a sockpuppet name .

There's no doubt it's him: he made this revert halfway through a series of about 120 reverts (always the same set of articles) from 11:55 to 12:15 UTC.

Examining the RIPE WHOIS database, we get :

Deutsche Telekom AG, Security Team
phone: +49 180 5334332
fax-no: +49 180 5334252
e-mail: mailto:abuse@t-ipnet.de

Abuse Contact: http://www.t-com.de/ip-abuse in case of Spam, Hack Attacks, Illegal Activity, Violation, Scans, Probes, etc.

If you contact them, cite the following information

IP = 84.172.240.205
Timestamp = 8 November 2005, 12:05 UTC (GMT) = 13:05 local time in Germany

Mention that this is a banned user (very likely "Wik") who is abusively evading the ban by using multiple fake names, and that this is just one of a long series of similar incidents that have taken many users many hours to deal with.

-- Curps 13:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

By traceroute one can even trace it into a geographical region, and if I understand the "MA" in the hostname correctly he is in the Mannheim area. IIRC even that was the same with User:Wik. andy 13:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt (again)

Given this , I suggest that User:Daniel Brandt now be indefinitely blocked. As a named party, I will refrain from doing it myself.Doc 13:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Gah! Wow. Done, gladly. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 14:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Aw, I didn't get mentioned on the enemies list. Nobody has accused me of being part of a cabal or being a Zionist oppressor or anything like that in a while. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 20:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm so sad. :( When I saw ta bu had blocked him for a week, I almost responded saying, "A week!? A week for a legal threat? He should be lucky we don't block him permanently. A week is a slap on the wrist." If I had then maybe I'd be on his list. --Golbez 20:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You guys are such whiners. Whenever I deal with vandals/POV pushers/drunken hobos all I get is stuff like "pretend your normal" or "leave me alone you stupid kid" or "your censoring me". I never get to be part of a cabal, or an oppresor, or anything important ;) --Scïmïłar 21:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Some humor

From the user talk page of Daniel Brandt:

My open letter to Jimmy Wales was deleted on my User page. Isn't this censorship? Daniel Brandt 18:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

No, because he's already received it. Tell you what, Daniel. I want to talk to you in real-time. My AIM is linuxbeak1. Go ahead, put it on your enemy page. Let's discuss this thing like civilized people and not like animals like we have been. I'm willing to discuss the problems and I want to make the article better. Go ahead, contact me. I won't bite. Linuxbeak | Talk 18:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

As the letter seems to be here, (a link provided through the lovely article on you, Danny), I do not see how you can seriously claim censorship, especially when you so badly demanded that the lovely article on you be deleted. I'd reckon you need to be reminded on the definition of censorship: Have you tried google? I hear its rather helpful... --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 18:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

lol, we need to maintain a healthy and loose demeanor throughout the community if we plan on having any fun. I frankly stopped caring about Brandt, now. He's just a troll, and he's actually funny. Linuxbeak | Talk 20:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ummm... I know he's being kinda bad, but could we at least try and treat this guy with some respect. Our overall tone could improve greatly. I do not condone what he has done, but think people have perhaps gone over the line violating wikiquette and civility guidelines. Let's do try and not stoop to this level. Just my thoughts. --LV 20:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I actually think most of us have been (see the user talk page). You've got to admit, Jeffrey pulled a one-liner on him. Nothing says we should bash the guy into the ground, but at the same time, we don't need to pretend that we're saints. Linuxbeak | Talk 20:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for visiting Misplaced Pages, the world's largest encyclopedia. --Right after telling him he was blocked.

Instead, you go about whining and bitching and attacking any editor that disagrees with your views.

I was born in 1986. You were born in 1947. And you know what's sad? I've got a more realistic view of how the world works than you do.

You truely are a crackpot, and that's sad.

...afraid that you're going to reveal that you truely are just a whiny has-been that never was in the first place? I bet you anything that you will just ignore this or use this as proof of the supposed secret police on Misplaced Pages. Why? Can't take a dose of reality from someone that's two generations younger than you?

It is just so hostile. I know, I know, you guys tried to reason with him, but that is no excuse for resorting to taunting and personal attacks. I'm not trying to tell you to pretend to be a saint, but I do urge you to err on the side of decent human being. I know I'll probably take a lot of grief over this, but what makes you guys as Admins better than him? No one should personally attack another editor, especially an Admin. Why should you be allowed to get away with this? I don't know... I've had enough for awhile. --LV 20:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ehhhh... I suppose you're right ;-) make me feel bad about it... Ahn. I don't know. We have to release steam somehow, so that's how we did it. Perhaps it wasn't the best way to do it, but really... THIS should indicate to you why we're a little annoyed, eh? Linuxbeak | Talk 20:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

True, but guys, don't lose your head, keep it civil. That at least gives us the moral high ground. Titoxd 21:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Alex. I have seen that cite. But bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. If it had been me, I would have wanted to punch the guy in the face probably, I just don't like to see it on the screen. I know you never meant any harm. See you around. --LV 21:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm, actually I sort of regret the remark that encouraged him to list me on his site. Not that I'm concerned about being on the list, it's just that some of our cheaper one-liners, although perhaps understandable, are either breaches of WP:CIVIL (which is rude) or troll-feeding (which is always counter-productive). As far as I'm concerned, from this point, the best policy is /ignore. And on that theme ..... . Doc 21:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

He hath dubbed me Sir Juan (Rico). I live in the Bronx. See, you learn something new every day. Honestly, though, I have no idea where he got that identity. It's way off. Superm401 | Talk 08:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Same here. According to him my name's Craig Anderson and I live in Hialeah, FL, USA. That's news to me. Canderson7 12:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Your name is at least plausible, though. Maybe you also live in Florida(i.e in addition to Craig, not me, in case he gets another wrong idea), which he learned by guessing your IP from a logged off edit? Superm401 | Talk 13:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Brandt appears to have quite an active imagination. "Juan Rico" is a character from the 1959 novel, Starship Troopers; "(Thomas) Craig Anderson" is also a character from the 1970 novel, The Paper Chase. --Viriditas | Talk 13:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Just saw this. I was't being uncivil by thanking him for visiting, I was thanking him for visiting. My other note was simply pointing out his hypocrisy. Sure, I could have dropped the google bit, but after he has said that wikipedia editors (and the people on his list specifically, myself included) will "chase and rape" anonymous editors, one cannot blame me there. Yes, we need to be above his smear incivility, and I was not uncivil at any point, especially considering the level of crap he has hurled at us. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 11:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

While it may be understandable, there is no question that "I'd reckon you need to be reminded on the definition of censorship: Have you tried google? I hear its rather helpful..." is uncivil. The first example at WP:CIV says simply "rudeness". The problem with lowering our standards when the other guy deserves it is that "derserving it" is a judgement call. - brenneman 11:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree wholeheartedly. WP:CI is for always, not just for people you like anyway. Filiocht | The kettle's on 12:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and unfailing politeness even in the face of people who are purposeful vandal/trolls has its advantages too. For one it keeps clean hands and for another it either avoids escalating a situation or deflates it. I wish more people would reallize incivility ot trolls just incites the behavior. I think that is the reason I rarely get any retribution from trolls. I don't block a ton, but I've done enough to know unfailing politeness is more successful than lowering to their level by making fun of them, etc. I'd also argue it's more fun in the end. I think of it like Apu saying "Thank you come again" to someone he's just sent to jail for stealing. - Taxman 17:51, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I find this morbidly interesting... Titoxd 05:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The state of Florida has an invasion-of-privacy statute, and Misplaced Pages concedes that it is within the state's jurisdiction. This is not about cookies and log access, but rather about the right of a private person to be left alone. Articles on private persons could easily run afoul of this law. Where on Misplaced Pages is guidance offered to editors and administrators about how to comply with this law? 4.230.153.188 08:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a private individual would have the guaranteed right to privacy, but a public figure does not. That is why celebrities cannot do much against hounding photographers, and magazines and such can publish info about them. So the question remains, is Daniel Brandt a public figure or a private one? The answer seems to be fairly obvious. By starting NameSpace, GoogleWatch, YahooWatch, and now WikipediaWatch (while being self-referential, stilll is notable for one of the most visited sites on the Internet), and since he has been covered in the media as a newsmaker, he has made himself a public figure. If there is an article about a private person, please feel free to point it out, and we'll see what we can do about having it removed. Thank you. --LV 17:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

And yet, there is no photograph of him on the web. He doesn't give speeches. He doesn't do radio or TV. Quite possibly a "private person" for legal purposes. The point is, Misplaced Pages has no guidelines on this -- everyone is flying by the seat of their pants on this issue.

There may be no photos of him, but I found articles about him in The Observer, The Ottawa Citizen, Sunday Times (London), Washington Internet Daily, The Christchurch Press, American Libraries, The Irish Times, Playboy, San Jose Mercury News, and many, many other reputible newspapers, magazines, and other publications. He is not a private citizen in this right. We should be considerate to his family, etc. but he is a well-known, public figure. --LV 18:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I think this public/private figure debate is a red herring. As long as an article adheres to the wikipedia core principals of No Original Research and Verifiability, these issues largely evaporate. We report what other — reliable — sources tell us. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Since all of our information should be coming from newspapers, books, etc., he can no more sue us than he can sue the Ottawa Citizen for having an article about him.--Scïmïłar 18:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the notability issue is very important. We should not put information on Misplaced Pages about private people. That's why Admins have the right to delete personal information, and not just hide it in the history. What makes a person a public figure? Notability. I think the two can pretty much be used interchangeably. It is an importnant issue that Misplaced Pages faces. A private person has the right to have his or her personal info not disseminated on WP. However, once the person gains noteriety, we have the right to have an article about him or her. But yes, WP:NOR and WP:V need to be remembered always. --LV 18:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey new legal threat

. Should his talk page be locked? --cesarb 23:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd say so, it is perfectly within policy to lock a userpage (especially of an indefinite blocked user) if the user continues to post legal threats or personal attacks. Jtkiefer ----- 00:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree, it's a WP:NLT block. I just wonder if these "notices" are real and if Jimbo is really receiving them. Titoxd 00:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Protected. Bratsche 03:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does, "The page also contains privileged and private information which violates my first amendment rights under US Law." I don't know... Superm401 | Talk 06:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Mr Merkey has the service address for the Wikimedia Foundation; he knows where to send proper legal paperwork - David Gerard 16:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandals abusing the "I forgot my password" feature

I've gotten two "someone requested a new password" emails tonight, and I haven't used that feature for a long time. Fortunately, the email also tells me which IPs they are using. One IP was, not surprisingly, a vandal I blocked earlier today – 24.121.48.137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). The other, 64.12.116.198 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), is an AOL IP – another shocker. I don't suppose there is any way to stop this? I wouldn't mind having that feature turned off, as I don't intend to forget my password anytime soon... android79 02:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

(Not an admin, but ...) For the record, I got one of these emails, too -- however, it was sent to another valid email of mine, different than the one I have on my preferences. This means someone is doing some kind of research on me, I guess. Question before the house: Is there, do you think, something I should be doing about this besides ignoring it? If so, what? Many thanks. BrandonYusufToropov 14:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Just remove your email from the preferences. (Yes, it has the side effect of also disabling the Misplaced Pages email feature.) --cesarb 03:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'd like folks to be able to contact me by email... have cake, eat it too, etc. It's stopped for now, so I suppose I'll just turn that off if it starts up again. Fortunately, you can just ignore the emails; I didn't realize that until I read one a little closer. Thanks. android79 03:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Admins who plan to block people must be contactable by email.Geni 03:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Might be worth filing a bug^Wfeature request, to a) allow someone to suppress the "send me my password" button and b) create a function where an active admin or a steward or a bureaucrat (whatever) can effectively send the password anyway - in other words, you tick a box somewhere, and whilst you can no longer press the button you can go into IRC and ask someone to do it for you. Bit kludgy, though, and would require someone to be persuaded to write it... maybe if this becomes a common problem. Shimgray | talk | 03:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

since the text is standadised couldn't you just set your account to lable it as spam?Geni 03:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

156.99.75.2 (talk · contribs) has also requested my password 8 times in a period of 15 minutes. This is a user that I and several others have warned against constant vandalism to Mac address using a variety of sock puppet IPs (all have been something to do with Minnesota). The same user is also very likely behind Weirdo1 (talk · contribs) which I believe to be a sock puppet of the IPs and designed to make it marginally harder to find out his IP. chowells 16:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Why not just prevent banned IP's from using the "I forgot my password" feature........ --ElvisThePrince 16:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've had this 'problem' too. On the principle of WP:BEANS, I suggest people delete the e-mail and forget it. If there is no response he'll get bored. --Doc 17:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The BEANS are already out of the can if people are already abusing this feature. android79 17:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Good point, he seems to have got bored now. I think I got about 80 of the over the course of a few hours, which took all of two seconds to delete in KMail, so no damage done. Would still be nice if there was either a limit to the number of reminders that could be requested from an IP in a set time, or simply refusing any reminders from an IP that has been banned. chowells 13:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you take these ideas to Bugzilla:. I'd vote for a limit on one new password being requested in a 24 hour period, and for the feature being disabled for banned IP addresses. Thryduulf 15:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

82.42.151.164 (talk · contribs) requested my password five times within two minutes. --Neutrality 01:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Nash the Slash

Background: some time ago, the president of Nash the Slash's fan club (user name Nashferatu) began waging an edit war to impose his view that Misplaced Pages should conform to the artist's personal preference not to have his real name publicly disseminated on the web even though the information already exists in the public domain. Recently, he began demanding that if the name is not removed from the article, then the Misplaced Pages contributors involved in the dispute should also be required to publicly reveal our names in that discussion as well, even though we're not public figures with Misplaced Pages articles whose real names are already public knowledge listed in other encyclopedias.

Issue: the one user he has "outed" so far has requested that his name be removed from the talk page, and that Nashferatu be sanctioned or even banned as a result of this action. As I've been directly involved in the dispute, however, I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to take direct action in this matter.

Could one or more neutral administrators please review the discussion at Talk:Nash the Slash and determine the appropriate course of action? (Note that while Nashferatu is registered under that user name, almost all of his recent edits have been made under anonymous IP numbers while he wasn't in fact logged in under his registered username. He did, however, sign them by typing his username manually.)

Thanks. Bearcat 02:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have warned Nashferatu not to reveal personal information about wikipedia editors without their consent. I have indicated that a repetition would lead to a block. I would like confirmation from other admins that such actions are blockable as a form of disruption. DES 22:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that 'outing' other Misplaced Pages editors is an unwarranted–and blockable–invasion of privacy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism difficult to report

As a new user to wikipedia I find the vandalism procedures difficult to follow. I would paste the warnings to the vandals talk pages but don't even know here to find them or even if they exist. The page Pete Price has been persistantly vandalised tonight by multiple users including changing hyperlinks to gay porn sites and rival forum sites and homophobic abuse. I would like to see the topic locked at rev 02:08, 9 November 2005 but the reporting system is very difficult to understand.

Click on the history tab on top. I'll be monitoring thePete Price page and blocking if necesarry.--Jondel 02:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism in progress is often cumbersome; one quicker remedy to persistent vandalism is to place a notice on Admin intervention against vandalism, which can be used to swiftly bring vandals to the attention of admins currently online and active. Template messages for warning vandals can be found at Misplaced Pages:Template messages/User talk namespace. If you have access to IRC, the channel #wikipedia-en-vandalism is usually frequented by members of the Misplaced Pages:Counter Vandalism Unit, a voluntary association of Wikipedians who focus on keeping the project clear of this kind of behavior. Hope this helps! — MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 04:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Acharya S

Would any other admin look into this page? I tried to arbitrate between two groups of very inflexible and often extremely vicious editors, and have given up. Each of the edit-warring group posts pages and pages of comments which often end up in rants. Since one of the parties involved claim I'm taking sides, it might be better that I keep off the page (the claim was:I'm taking sides because I removed a see also link to ] from the main article space!!! That, after I explained the Manual of style!!!). Today, one edit-warring user posted Administrators... where are you? 11/8/05 -el Lobo, It is amazing that you Wikipedians allow this disturbed individual to continue his unethical and obsessive rant. Nuke this page while Wiki still has any credibility. So, it may be better if this article was looked into right away. Thanks. --Ragib 06:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've edited the page. It's a bit long for a minor person; but (I presume) now does reflect what this controversy is about. Storm in a teacup. Charles Matthews 10:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Had a go at sorting this out way back. Its the only time I've provided 3 citations for one word and still been questioned.Geni 11:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 November 4

FireFox deleted an article but while closing the discussion on this page, he forgot to add the bottom header. As a result, though this AfD day is closed most of the articles voted for deletion are still posted there. I've sorted through them and closed the articles nominated for keeping or where no consensus was reached. Admins please delete the necessary and look through any mistake I may have made (I'm too tired now).--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 16:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah sorry about that. I realised my mistake at once, but Misplaced Pages stopped responding so I couldn't correct it :( FireFox 18:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't get it?? More backlash against AOL??

"To be allowed to create accounts in this Wiki you have to log in and have the appropriate permissions", I don't understand--152.163.100.74 21:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Would you mind expanding? As far as I know, there haven't been any new hurdles to stop anyone from creating an account, and unless a new form of blocking has been implemented, you should be able to create an account freely. Perhaps you're referring to the Wikimedia Foundation's website? Thanks. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 21:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

That is a message that can be triggered if you start to create an accont and are blocked while doing so. I suspect shifiting from an unblocked to blocked ip while logging in will have a simular effect.Geni 22:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we could change the MediaWiki message to something less confusing? R adiant _>|< 00:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Problem is that I don't know all the situations under which it can appear.Geni 00:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Unknown error #7489324 - please contact User:Geni and tell him the situation under which it appeared" :) R adiant _>|< 16:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

it's not an error it's a feuture (for people on wikis who want to limit account creation).Geni 02:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

AfD

Has the AfD page been vandalized? When I try to go there, all I get is

<a href="/Main_Page" title="

User:Zoe| 04:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Erm. Now it seems to be working. User:Zoe| 04:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

looks like one of the ways that wikipedia can fall over although at this time of day that should not happening.Geni 05:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A cut and paste bot

Someone from 204.238.213.2 (talk · contribs) was running an unauthorized bot that did a series of cut and paste page moves. The logic behind moves might be valid, but the bot was blanket reverting human editors who reverted the bot so I blocked this address for 24 hours. Please help with cleaning up this mess! jni 08:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

El C's block of Marsden

User:El C has blocked User:Marsden for 24 hours for "Disruption; vicious and mean-spirited attacks. Shows no remorse or willingness to stop." From the context, it's clear that El C was prompted to block by personal attacks directed against himself. I have a couple of problems with this. One, unless I've missed something, admins do not have the right to summarily block users for personal attacks. Second, it does not look good for an admin to settle personal grievences using his own blocking powers.

There are established mechanisms for dealing with users with behavioural problems (RfC, RfAr, mediation etc), but blocking someone who insults you isn't one of them. I've asked El C, and he will not unblock, therefore I invite further comment from the community.

This is too fucking funny. I accused El C of Stalinism, and he banned me from speaking for 24 hours. I'm glad I didn't accuse him of being an ass-rapist. Marsden 03:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not clear; I made the same warning weeks ago before ever undergoing any attack by Marsden. I only underwent the latest ones for stepping in while he was attacking other users, without showing any willingness to stop. MCrypto did not seem to bother in studying the case closely prior to coming his so-called clear conclusion, which is false. Point is: the user shows no willingness to stop the disruption. El_C 20:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There is precedent for blocking for personal attacks, under the 'general disruption' clause. This is controversial, however. A casual look at Marsden's history shows recent unpleasantness targeted at El C, Fred Bauder, Jayjg and SlimVirgin. None of this is really grounds for a block by itself, but thse could well be the tip of the iceberg. So I don't really see a reason to doubt El C here, but maybe he could cite an earlier diff or two to clear it up? Radiant_>|< 20:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that Marsden has engaged in widespread personal attacks, and dispute resolution is probably warranted. However, I strongly believe that an admin should not block someone in response to a personal attack directed at himself. — Matt Crypto 20:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

While blocking for individual personal attacks is not policy, blocking for continued personal attacks, especially when combined with other disruptive activities, is not unheard of. Marsden has been quite free with his insults for some time, and not just against El C - there are literally dozens of examples. He has also promoted the claim that editors he opposes are paid propaganda agents, and described those who disagree with him as "Evil". He recruits people to revert war for him, and even gives them explicit instructions on how to do so. He has also made it clear that he sees his main role here as "holding a stick over my head" and making SlimVirgin's Misplaced Pages experience "very unpleasant". I think the real question here is, why only a 24 hour block? Jayjg 20:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Note that the main reason Jay didn't give a diff for my "claim" that he is a paid propagandist is that made it on another user's talk page, and Jay only saw it because he was Wikistalking. Anyway, he clearly isn't bothered by it, because due to his constant repeating of it, my private, semi-humorous comment has become widely known. Marsden 03:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Undisputably Marsden is a problem; it's just a question of what is the appropriate measure to take. I would argue we should use the normal Misplaced Pages processes for problem users. I recall another editor who couldn't refrain from personal attacks a while back (User:Irate). I would very much like to have blocked him on the spot when he started shouting "s*** for brains" at people (including myself), but, because we have a dispute resolution system, we took him through the process of RfC and RfAr. Eventually he was given a personal attack parole, and then banned. It was long winded, but was fair and accountable. When an admin blocks someone who's just insulted him, it looks like he's settling a personal grievance, and it doesn't look fair and accountable. — Matt Crypto 20:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It all depends on how disruptive the editor is; some disruptive editors, who contribute in other ways, are taken to RfC and RfAR. Other editors, who contribute little, are simply blocked, and sometimes permanently banned. The Arbitration Committee has actually turned back cases of users who are so disruptive that they should obviously just be blocked, rather than taken through a lengthy Arbitration process. Jayjg 21:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There is one problem here. Suppose I see a disruptive user who has been warned in the past, and I decide to block him for some time, then that would likely stand undisputed. Now suppose that rather than blocking him outright, I try to discuss the issue with him and make him see the light. If this works, then I'm happy. If this user instead starts insulting me, then I would be tempted to block him - not for personal reasons, but because I believe I could have blocked him earlier and tried reasoning first, and it obviously failed. See the problem? Obviously admins should never block in retaliation, but I see no problem with them blocking for something that may appear like retaliation at first sight, but at second glance really isn't, e.g. because they had a valid reason earlier and tried something else at first. Radiant_>|< 20:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- An easier solution would be to drop a note on, say, this board, and get other admins to discuss it and implement it if they agree. It is hard to tell to what extent El C's block was a retaliation for the personal attack directed against him immediately prior, but an admin should not be giving even the appearance of such. — Matt Crypto 20:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  - No need; I was only attacked for having tried to stop the disruption, so that is no grounds to withdraw. There were no attacks —but there were warnings— beforehand. Did you happen to miss that portion of my explanation? I noted it a few times already, so... El_C 21:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Uh, no, that would be a lie, El C. I think I first encountered your Stalinist self when you were acting as a revert-puppet for Jay and Slim, reverting to a bad edit. You've been in league with those two asses, and now you've abused your miss-placed admin powers to help them promote their POV agenda. You're a real prize, El C. Goan. Marsden 03:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

- - - I did indeed read your explanation, but I maintain that it gives the wrong impression when, after someone insults an admin, the admin responds by blocking him. It does look like retaliation, regardless of the motives. You say "no need", but there is a need for admins to be seen to be acting above board. Why not, after having being personally attacked by Marsden, have posted the situation to this board? That way someone else could have blocked (if the case was as obvious as you maintain), and there could be no possible grounds for complaint. — Matt Crypto 21:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
      - It dosen't appear that way to me. There were enough administrators and arbitrators on the scene. Even Marsden would not try to pretend it came out of the blue. Your advocacy, therefore, seems hasty. (Un?)Incidentally, I am hopeful you yourself would be able to restrain yourself by refraining from personally attacking me in the course of this particular exchange. Your reference to me as "Nazi-like" very recently was the worse thing I was ever called on Misplaced Pages. And I was far from impressed with or moved by your so-called unreserved apology in light of its highly questionable preamble. El_C 21:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        *sigh*. Why not bury the hatchet? I've already apologised unreservedly; what more would you like? I note that you have also referred to me as "Nazi-like", and that previously, you had, without any provocation, alleged that my (and others') actions were "as far from good faith as were imaginable", and that they "revolted" you. You haven't shown a hint of regret to any of that, but, regardless, my apology still stands. — Matt Crypto 21:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        You've had that chance and I was very much open to it, but you opted to blow it by going on and on until ending (no, not actually ending: many reversions on my talk page by yourself ensued, despite all protests that your input was no longer sought at that time) in straight vicious insult-mode. T'was hardly a burial (not to mention reconciliation). And as for my strong comments about a lack of goodfaith on your and other's part, that does not equate with being called "Nazi-like," which your so-called unreserved apology oh so cleverly seems to imply. If your apology still stands on those terms, then it is still rejected as such. Sigh, indeed. Thanks for not unblocking without seeking an explanation and evidence this time, though (it really did save a lot of potential trouble and further acrimony, which I hope you appreciate). El_C 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        I recall making an effort to reconcile our differences, but you simply rebuffed it. Again, though, you criticise me for having called your censoring behaviour "Neo-Nazi" like. I regret doing that, and I have, as mentioned, apologised unreservedly. Of course, you have referred to my behaviour as Nazi-like as well, so I have to wonder why you don't take your own advice about "vicious insults"? Moreover, saying someone is acting as "far from good-faith as is imaginable" is a very grave insult, as you are essentially saying the person's motives are as evil as can be imagined -- even worse than any Neo-Nazi's motives. That's certainly the worst thing anyone's said to me on Misplaced Pages. You seem to understand that insults can hurt you, but you don't appear appreciate that your insults likewise hurt others. — Matt Crypto 22:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        That wasn't burying the hatchet but continuing to use it with abandon instead of saying: we'll have to agree to disagree. Of course I did not refer to behaviour as Nazi-like. And WP:POINT, Misplaced Pages as an experiment in free speech, and all the rest that was implied by my charges, does not translate into being titled "Nazi-like." It did seem to me, as it still does now, in being as "far from good-faith as is imaginable," but I never alleged that there was a unified agenda, nor that it was in direct service of the Nazi you recklessly unblocked. El_C 22:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Of course, you did refer to my exclamations as Nazi-like, despite your denial . But at least I've made some sort of effort at making peace, and I've owned up when I've made mistakes. From what I can tell, it hasn't ever even begun to dawn on you that you might have ever done anything remotely wrong in this sorry saga. Rather, you simply reiterate your insults. I've had enough. — Matt Crypto 23:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Hah! I did not even notice that. I meant you refering to myself as "Nazi-like," not that this reference was a Nazi-like exclamtion on your part. That's just my bad grammar. El_C 23:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        That's just isn't something I would say, ever. I never use words like that lightly in a conversation, especially with regards to conduct (!). Read it again with context: ... on Matt Crypto's Nazi-like exclamations against myself and his many, many other insults.. I did not say his exclamations were Nazi-like (!). Wow. El_C 02:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        Moreover, getting back to the topic, the point of raising the issue here (or on other pages) was not simply that admins and arbitrators would be informed, but rather that Marsden would be dealt with by an admin who wasn't already a participant in a dispute with him. — Matt Crypto 22:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        El C's only "dispute" with Marsden appears to be the fact that he objected to Marsden's continual use of personal attacks. As such, I see no reason why El C should not block for those attacks, when they continued even after warnings. Jayjg 22:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Because I wasn't in-dispute with him except as an admin; I agreed with most of his changes to the content. El_C 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        Quite, but El C clearly was in a dispute with Marsden over this, and El C wasn't without a touch of incivility himself (nothing like Marsden's of course): "Who needs to grow out of (a lot) and who needs to grow up seems rather clear here, too. Needless to say, I feel utterly crushed and greatly humilated by the sheer poignancy of your un-patronizing, brilliant criticisms. The futility of keeping Marsden (and his ever-so volatile emotions) on-topic, there's an essay topic. . Given an exchange like the above, I believe it would be better to handle this, if not through Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution system, then via another, non-involved admin. — Matt Crypto 22:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        That's after he told me I should grow out of stalinism, without any provocation. Your agenda here to undermine me seems clear, and I do not view it in good faith. 'Twas a nice attempt at vengence, though. Better luck next time. El_C 22:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Perhaps you should consider assuming good faith? I would have supported you if you'd, say, filed an RfC against Marsden, and I would have similarly contacted any other admin if I'd noticed they'd blocked someone directly after receiving an insult from them. — Matt Crypto 22:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Would you prefer it if El C unblocked so you could immediately re-block? I'm sure that could be arranged. Jayjg 22:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Everyone has to assume goodfaith except for Matt Crypto (and his infamous unblocks, of course). El_C 22:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        El C: As far a I recall, I've only ever unblocked one user (Amalekite), and I apologised for my mistake. I didn't unblock here, you'll notice. — Matt Crypto 23:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Unlike in a certain infamous case; the AGF continuum, if you will. El_C 23:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        Jayg: I initally thought dispute resolution would be more appropriate, since traditionally personal attacks weren't handled by admins discretion. Since people are happy with blocking for personal attacks, I can go along with it. I was also pointing out at the same time that it was not wise for El C to personally block someone he'd exchanged sharp words with. — Matt Crypto 23:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        Except, sometimes its unavoidable to be subjected to sharp words from disruptive users. El_C 23:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
(bringing conversation back to the left) I don't understand what the fuss is about. Marsden attacked, defamed, and generally acted poorly towards El C. He attempted, and the other users, to reconcile, and when the personal attacks went too far, El C rightly blocked him for a simple twenty-four hours for violation of multiple policies. If we tried the dispute resolution with every user, say this one, I believe Misplaced Pages would fall to pieces. There are places for RfC's, and there are not. Blatant continuing personal attacks go under the latter category. Bratsche 22:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is, Bratsche, that there are many that wish to turn Misplaced Pages into a bureaucracy, whenever it suits them, at least. El_C 22:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  - Okay everybody, can we calm down here please? For the sake of argument, you can assume that Marsden was unblocked by whomever you like, and reblocked by me. I do believe I count as an uninvolved party as I've never even heard of the guy. Also, some of you should familiarize yourself with Godwin's law. I say we drop this issue and get on with the encyclopedia. Radiant_>|< 23:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
    - I'm happy with the accountability issue now people have chipped in here in support of the block. (It might be worth updating Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy to explicitly indicate that a continuing pattern of personal attacks counts as disruption). — Matt Crypto 23:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Diffs

Knee-jerk reverts result in crap'

Read this sentence, which you reverted to, and please explain what it means:

   "For nineteen years that followed the end of the Mandate until the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip and Jordan occupied the West Bank and annexed East Jerusalem but no Palestinian state was created there."

It seems to me that there was no such thing as "annexed East Jerusalem" prior to 1967 -- are you and Jayjg just rewriting history again? Or did you think it means that Jordan occupied the West Bank but separately annexed East Jerusalem? Why would anyone write anything so ridiculous, though, when the only "annexing" Jordan ever did was to "annex" the entire West Bank, albeit barely anyone else recognized it.
Please stop making an ass of yourself, Slim. Marsden 00:05, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Please review and adhere to WP:NPA, WP:CIV, WP:NOT, and WP:WQT. Thanks. El_C 01:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)



Diff 2:
With Jay and Slim, any assumption I had of good faith was beaten out of me long ago. Sorry, but that's the way it is. They are just nasty, and not only with me -- I am appalled at some of the veiled threats they have made against users who are making their very first contributions here; they must scare away dozens of potential contributers whose only mistake is thinking that their input might be welcome. When it comes to their pet topics, they are bullies, pure and simple. Marsden 00:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

That is not an acceptable response. If you feel you have grievences that need addressing, proceed through the appropriate channels, this article talk page is designed to discuss the pertinent material, not provide a venu for personal diatribes. If you keep up the "they are just nasty" comments and so on, you will be blocked for disruption. Please take that as a final warning. El_C 00:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC) (emphasis added)
If that's not an "acceptable response," you'd better ban me, El C, because SlimVirgin and Jayjg really are just nasty.  And I have little patience for the continual threats -- many from SlimVirgin and Jayjg -- about how I am "being disruptive" and how they are "warning" me, etc., etc., etc.  El C, I don't need Misplaced Pages, and I'm not going to put up with bullshit from anyone.  Jayjg and SlimVirgin are just nasty in how they protect their POV here.  That's the fact, as I see it.  I won't pretend otherwise.  Strike your colors, El C.  Marsden 15:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
What? Why? Anyway, there's no need to ovenuance so much. It isn't about what you think or in playing pretend, it's how you choose to express yourself, and where. Even if you follow this through the propper channels, by outlining your grievences within the framework of a clearly documunted exposition, the rules are that you must conduct yourself with disciplined moderation viz. personal comments. I fail to see how that hinders you from raising any relevant point. The rest my response can be read here. El_C 12:47, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I take your threat against me to be an effort to disrupt debate.  You are frankly, El C, commenting on something you don't know very much about, and making an ass of yourself in doing so.  Jayjg and SlimVirgin are dishonest debaters.  I can document that.  If you don't think that's nasty, I suspect that you are in the minority in your opinion.  What did you expect to accomplish by making your empty threat against me?  It seems underhanded and dishonest to me, El C. Marsden 13:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
It's unfortunate you feel this way, but I fail to see a reason why you should be allowed to direct personal insults at anyone, nor how these somehow amount to an integral component of your  position. El_C 21:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how any legitimate purpose is served by pretending that Jayjg and SlimVirgin are not really nasty bullies when they in fact are really nasty bullies -- should we pretend that pit vipers are just big caterpillars, too? I wish someone had let me know that Jayjg and SlimVirgin are really nasty bullies when I first encountered them; it would have saved me the time I spent trying to be reasonable with them. Frankly, if participating in Misplaced Pages requires subscribing to a falsehood, I have better things to do. Marsden 23:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
This becoming highly circular and repetitive; you must adhere to WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, this isn't negotiable. El_C 23:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Should I hold my breath while I wait for your apology for implying that I have not been exhibiting good faith, and that I have been exhibiting "venom" -- echoing SlimVirgin's personal attack against me, by the way? Or are these rules that I have to adhere to, but you don't? Marsden 00:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


Diff 3: 
I'm glad we got to the point where we have an accurate title, and I'm not just saying it because I was the one who came up with it (or borrowed it from EB, rather) & did the renaming; your OT(I) gave me the association of territories being occupied from Israel, and in that sense, not much more clear than OT(P) (!). Anyway, lot can change for the better with gestures of good-will, and such a process will greatly help to distinguish those who aim at positive improvements from the perpetually disruptive  But, the bottom line, it's nearly-impossible to operate with all this negative energy that never seems to dissipate. And as a result, an intellectually honest and unbiased presentation suffers, because some are unable to emotionally restrain themselves from repeatedly resorting to personal attacks, simplistic schemes (as well as simplistic conspiracies alleging these, as expanded on above), which then ultimately prove self-defeating and work to perpeturate the bias, by expending so much needless energy in trying to defeat it.  Thanks in advance for reading closely & critically. El_C 14:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

All (and many other instances), of course, before ever being attacked by Marsden myself. So, should I unblock him simply for being attacked in pressing on him (recently; initially, gently) that attacks and disruption are unacceptable & unrpoductive? Or should he be allowed to continue to vicioudly insult and disrupt while an RfC, RfAr, etc. are ongoing? (see Fred Bauder pertinent note on wikilawyering to understand what I mean). El_C 21:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Marsen's input is not totally worthless or completely unwelcome, but enough is enough. I fully support El C's action in this case. Fred Bauder 21:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Fred. In light of the evidence submitted above, I think it has been established that this was not personal retaliation nor a product of knee-jerk immediacy. There simply seems to be no way to convince Marsden to stop. I should know (again, see above). El_C 21:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks for the explanation. Radiant_>|< 22:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I both agree with the block and agree with Matt that it still would have been a little better had El C not made it, but instead asked someone else. If we can't enforce the policy against personal attacks, we are just letting disruptive users run the place. We have an encyclopedia to write, so lets all calm down and go do that. - Taxman  23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, goodluck with that. El_C 00:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, El C. I'm glad the block is supported. As Fred said, enough is enough. Aaron's idea (below) is interesting. SlimVirgin  03:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Notifying an uninvolved admin

As to placing a note so that another (uninvolved) admin may do the business - there does exist WP:PAIN. 
 brenneman 02:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Personal attacks policy

To generalise, it would seem there has been some change in the community's view on personal-attack blocks over the last year. When posting above, I was recalling old debates such as Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy/Personal attacks (old) (August 2004), which attempted to establish a provision for admins to block for personal attacks. The proposal was quite well-supported but did not achieve consensus at the time (I voted in favour); opponents argued it gave too much power to admins. Here's the proposal:

Personal attacks are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. At their discretion, and only after warning the user, sysops may use temporary blocks to enforce a “cooling down” period for users who repeatedly make personal attacks. Blocks made under this policy should be short term – one to three days normally, and a week at most. Although blocks may be reapplied if personal attacks continue, repeated violations should be referred to the Arbitration committee. Sysops blocking under this policy may not block users for making personal attacks in the course of disputes that the sysop is involved in, and especially not for personal attacks made against them, unless the personal attacks also constitute clear and unambiguous vandalism (i.e. replacing their userpage with “U SUCK!!1!1!!”).

It seems that this formerly-rejected proposed policy, which is very applicable in this situation, is now viewed de facto as acceptable admin practice (for example, El C's block would be acceptable under this provision); I think this is a good thing, but it would be even better if this proposal was now explicitly recognised as official policy. In cases when an admin is attacked, it's more important than usual that he act within clear guidelines, because there is potential for abuse. What do people think: is it time to resurrect this old proposal? — Matt Crypto 10:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Given the sheer growth of WP since August 2004, I'd say this is reasonable. Also see Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy/Personal attacks, which cites a number of uncontested blocks for personal attacks happening already. Radiant_>|< 11:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the link; I'd missed that proposal (which should have been obvious, really, given the name of the old proposal page!) — Matt Crypto 11:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Personal attacks are a different type of vandalism. I believe that they should be dealt with more strongly than other types of vandalism. Even if a serious personal attack is made in the heat of the moment, a cooling-down-period block would not be out of place. I think we can all say that vandalism is silly and annoying, personal attacks are nasty. Perhaps nastiness should be the measuring stick for our response to this kind of nuisance. --Gareth Hughes 12:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Second block

Based on the comments just left above, namely , which occured just a few hours after the last block, I've reblocked for 24 hours. (Personal attacks like "Stalinist," "ass," etc. just in that one diff.) Frankly, that Marsden comes back right after the block and makes personal attacks here, of all places, is appalling. I'm open to discussion if anyone disagrees with this block. Dmcdevit·t 03:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I kind of disagree with it. Only 24 hours? Don't we have a policy, or at least practice, whereby blocks get longer in cases of immediate repeat offences (of an "appalling" nature, yet) when the block expires? --Bishonen | talk 03:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
That's no matter. I was being conservative because the idea is that in 24 hours, we should have at least some feedback. Kind of like a placeholder block. Blocks can always be extended. Since I was inviting discussion, I didn't think there was urgency, and kept it at the minimum 24 for now. Which is to say that personally I think it should be at least 48 hours as well, but thought we could agree on the length together. After all, this is the Admins' Noticeboard :-) Dmcdevit·t 04:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I would say that El C, as an involved party, should not have blocked; on the other hand, Marsden's comments above suggest to me that, in general, blocking was probably a fine idea. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Arbcom cases closed

The arbitration committee has reached final decision in the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Everyking 3, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Regarding_The_Bogdanov_Affair, and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/jguk_2 cases. →Raul654 03:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


Jens Stoltenberg

Misplaced Pages has made national news in Norway because of an accusation of pedophilia in the English-language Misplaced Pages entry on Jens Stoltenberg, the prime minister. The accusation was removed 22.5 hrs later. See Talk:Jens Stoltenberg. My reaction is that the IP in question should be blocked for a year, but I'd rather see what others think first. (NB Daniel Brandt's argument about a platform for libel suddenly seems very pertinent.) Rd232  11:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

See also WP:ANI which talks about the same issue. But generally, don't block IPs for more than a month (since they can change). Radiant_>|< 11:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I know, and looking at the contributions in more detail it looks like a shared IP anyway. So doing nothing is probably the best thing, but it doesn't feel adequate for this situation. :( Rd232  11:42, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

There was a conversation about this at no:Misplaced Pages:Tinget (the Norwegian counterpart to the Village Pump). Cnyborg has had a conversation both with the Dagbladet journalist and the IT-man responsible for that address. The IP belongs to Buskerud county, and is shared by the schools in the area. The IT-man has promised to investigate who is responsible for this, so I don't think that blocking the IP will do much good now. The vandalism is really of a common type, but in more than 90% of the cases the RC patrol will catch it. It was unfortunate that this one slipped through. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
As Sjakkalle says, I've talked to the head of IT service in Buskerud County, and he believes (as I do) that it's a computer at one of their schools. Blocking it would have very little effect on the person who vandalized the article, but would prevent anyone else who gets stuck with that IP-adresse from editing. With school or library computers, I find that a block of 1 to 3 hours does the trick; the person is stopped, and someone else takes over the computer. He asked me for the adress and the exact time; as the person vandalized two articles (Jens Stoltenberg and Red-Green Coalition) over a span of 15 minutes, he/she was logged in long enough that there's a fair chance they can trace it. Since it's against the rules of the schools to use the computers for such activities, they're quite anxious to get to the bottom of it. In other words, we've already done something by informing those responsible for the IP-address, and even if they can't trace it to a particular person, they will talk to the users about this and keep an eye on things. Cnyborg 12:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, good. Rd232  12:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It made national news just for being on a stupid website!? Wow! That's awesome! I give my congrats to whoever posted that there.--71.107.172.254 12:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Given the latest onslaught of vandalism towards this article, I have protected it now. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


Vandalism by 67.176.133.152

Steven Brandon sent an e-mail to the help desk reporting vandalism by this IP.

I would like to report some bogus material posted in the Peterborough Chronicle article. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Peterborough_Chronicle&diff=27986286&oldid=27985217.
“The Peterborough (Just like Family Guy the crappy show that Harrison Siegel watches, what a piece of crap!!!) Chronicle…”
I consider this guy (67.176.133.152) to be nothing more than a vandal (no offense intended to Germanic tribe of that name).
He has evidently been busy elsewhere too.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=67.176.133.152.
Could you please block this individual’s editing privledges?
Thank you,
Steve

 
Steven C. Brandon, Ph.D.

Has any action been taken against this user as yet?

Capitalistroadster 17:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Take a look at the block log and talk page. --cesarb 22:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


What's the deal with Checkuser?

I've been happy to notice that expanding checkuser rights has been approved by the board, and that meta:Requests_for_permissions has some checkuser rights requests for arbitrators (to be precise, Raul654, Fred Bauder, Kelly Martin, The Epopt and Jayjg). There's also some opposition there, and a request from Datrio to discuss it on enwiki. So what's going on? Radiant_>|< 00:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Check the meta requests for permissions page - specifically, Kelly's comment. The stewards are basically refusing to do their jobs. →Raul654 00:22, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
They are free to do that. That is why this things are done by humans rather than bots. Considering recent and current events giveing Kelly Martin checkuser rights  is a really really bad idea. Giveing Kelly Martin checkuser rights after a closed door disscussion would be one of the most effective ways of damageing arbcom and steward credibilty I can think of.Geni 00:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Intersting Kelly Martin withdrew and still ended up with checkuser rights.Geni 15:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


JarlaxleArtemis unbanned and on probation

Hi everyone.
I know that this is probably the most incredible thing hearing this coming from my own mouth, but it's true. I have talked to Jarlaxle and he has been unbanned. The important tidbits behind his unbanning include the following:

Mediation/Mentorship
A formal apology given to Linuxbeak, Psychonaut, Anthere, NicholasT and anyone else who he may have caused harm
Repair any damage caused by acts of sockpuppetry/impersonation on other Wikis
A probationary period for as long as his defunct ArbCom case originally had set as the penal period (one year)

Jarlaxle presented an apology on the #wikipedia channel and was officially welcomed back to Misplaced Pages.
See? There is always hope, and I am truly proud that we can welcome Jarlaxle back as a productive and active editor. Welcome back! Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 06:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

If you think you've worked this through successfully, WELL DONE! I'll email the AC list to make sure we don't have any crossing of streams - David Gerard 18:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Linuxbeak or I will probably end up writing a note in the signpost, this is rather big. Redwolf24 (talk) 20:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Make sure to check and write down what you want to write at the Newsroom (and the inner-room) first. Also, I'm sure Ral would agree with me, but Linuxbeak probably shouldn't write the article because he's involved. Thanks! Flcelloguy ( A  note? ) 21:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


NowCommons

The backlog on Category:NowCommons is getting pretty huge, and several editors on the talk page have expressed a desire for someone to work on reducing the number of duplicated images. I'd be willing to chip away at a little of this, but Geni's comment there suggests that there might be some policy reasons behind not deleting NowCommons images yet (i.e. that it's easier to protect images used here than if they're over on Commons). What's the consensus on this? — MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 06:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I am somewhat in the minority on this, but I've never seen much benefit in deleting images moved to Commons.  If you assume disk space is not an issue (which is what they keep telling us), then having a local copy increases our control over the image. For example, allowing it to be protected and keeping things in English only.  It also avoids the thorny legal issues incumbent with the GFDL in that we must make sure all contributors (and preferably all versions) are carefully documented if an image is to be moved to Commons and the original deleted.  Dragons flight 06:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Having images at Commons is problematic, because ideally each image should have a reasonably detailed explanatory caption, in the same language as the page that incorporates it and with wikilinks to the Misplaced Pages that page is part of.  That's no really possible in a standalone language-neutral Commons.  Basically, Commons doesn't really work. -- Curps 06:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

For a lot of relevant discussion, please see Misplaced Pages:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Proposal/I1-B. Radiant_>|< 10:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the link. I guess I'll look around for some backlogs elsewhere, then. — MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 01:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Remove Protection From GNAA Page

Please remove the deletion protection status from Gay Nigger Association of America. This page blatantly breaks various Misplaced Pages content 'rules' (propoganda, hoax, etc.) and goes against the ethics of Misplaced Pages. The only reason it has survived all the previous deletions is due to the members of GNAA 'protecting' their precious entry.
Stinkfoot 11:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

WP:NOT censored. Alphax  12:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

This user also listed User:Timecop's user page on AFD, so you might want to keep an eye on it. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 12:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I've blocked Stinkfoot (talk · contribs) as a troll and/or attack sockpuppet. Radiant_>|< 12:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


Kirstin

Yesterday I blocked User71.1.10.2 for 24 for vandalism, personal attacks and threats. This had to do with the creation of Kirstin which I judged to be a nn-bio/nonsense as did User:Zaf. Today this person returned as User:68.84.20.247 and first left me a message on my talk page. They then recreated the Kirstin article which this time included personal attacks on Zaf and myself. I did not want to block the user because of not wishing to appear as if I was punishing the user. However, I did delete the Kirstin article and then protected it so it could not be recreated. Could someone check out my actions and see if I have acted correctly? Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Consider it done, Cambridge. Focus on keeping warm up there. Karmafist 19:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


MARMOT unbanned and on probation

I swear I have a.) lost my mind and b.) have grown soft in my old age ;-)
I have been talking to MARMOT (yes, MARMOT) and after discussing this with a few other administrators, we have decided to allow him to return to Misplaced Pages. Like JarlaxleArtemis, MARMOT is not getting a free return. The rules and terms of his unbanning include the following:

A formal and open apology written to Linuxbeak, Phroziac, Cool_Cat, and others that he has caused harm to
Mentorship/mediation, which is to be pursued immediately
A probation sentence of one full year from the moment of his unbanning
Ceasing of all harmful activity against Misplaced Pages and it's users (including IRC)
An indication of behavioral improvement, marked by an RFC, after three months

Let it also be known that MARMOT has indicated that he understands that if he takes this display of Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith annd abuses it, he will be promptly rebanned and will never be allowed back to Misplaced Pages.
...so... let's try to welcome MARMOT back to the community. Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 20:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Fantastic work Linuxbeak. After those successful outcomes, I hereby suggest that you open negotiations with Willy.;) --Doc  21:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Willy has already expressed his remorse and promised never to vandalize again; check the mailing list. Flcelloguy ( A  note? ) 21:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a link for that?  Titoxd 21:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, let me find it... Flcelloguy ( A  note? ) 21:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Here 'ya go: . You can check the list here and view the responses to the mail - it's near the bottom under the thread "Clearing my Conscience". Flcelloguy ( A  note? ) 22:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Dang, does that mean that unblocking Willy on Wheels might not be a farfetched idea? My eyes will jump out if he actually proves to be a good editor and eventually end up on WP:LA... Titoxd 22:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Willy for Arbcomm! --Doc  22:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

In light of this, I've removed all the autorems I can find on MARMOT in IRC. He should consider himself on a similar probation there. Phil Sandifer 21:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

So apparently I missed the announcement of Be Nice to Vandals Day, and while the idealist in me likes the idea of reforming trouble makers, if we are going to give them a second chance, have we considered maybe asking for some real life insurance?  For example asking them to edit under their real name or provide details about their ISP and who to contact about abuse?  Anonymity is a priviledge we enjoy here, but I would feel more comfortable about welcoming back problem users if they were willing to stake their real life reputations on improved behaviour.  Dragons flight 21:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The insurance that we have is that any admin can immediately block a known problem user given a single sign of relapsing into old ways. We don't have to go through everything again - if the vandal hasn't reformed, a block can be immediately placed. Flcelloguy ( A  note? ) 21:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Being blocked wasn't exactly seen as much of an inconvenience for these guys in the past, so I don't see why the possibility of their being blocked again is much of a reason for them to go straight.  Basically, I'd like to know that they had some greater reason to behave than merely the threat of being blocked.  Dragons flight 21:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Look at it this way: they were already blocked. If they really wanted to, they could have made another account and started doing what they were doing all over again. If they act up again, we revert and then we block their account. Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 21:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Look at it my way, you got them to agree to some strong terms of their reconciliation (or should I say probation and parole?), but in the future when they get tired with mentorship and RFCs, what is to stop them from saying "Fuck this", and starting it all again?  A persistent, returning vandal comes to us ready to make amends and concessions and yet in the long run we have no greater power to stop rouge behavior than we did before.  Maybe today's vandals will actually decide to walk to the straight path (here's hoping), but in the long run I am sure we will see vandals for whom reform is short-lived.  A small number of such persistent vandals represent some of the most destructive influences on Wiki, and if we are going to let them back inside the gates, I would have liked to gotten more in the bargain than concillitory words and promises of mentorship and probation.  Oh well, too late now, and still probably better to know what they are up to than not.  Dragons flight 23:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. I also would caution against treating dealings with other users as bargains and negotiations. Phil Sandifer 23:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Assume Good Faith is an essential guideline for dealing with users who we know little about. I think we sometimes take AGF a bit too far and start acting like we should put a lot  of effort into reforming problem users. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see MARMOT and WoW making contributions, but there does come a point where "assuming good faith" leads to "ignoring reality". Carbonite | Talk 23:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Assuming good faith when a manifest effort to show it is being made is common sense. Phil Sandifer 23:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, let's see how this turns out. I do agree with Tony that's there not much to lose here. Carbonite | Talk 23:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)



Really, vandalism is a very small threat to the wiki, and we're on top of it.  So there's nothing much to be gained by rehabilitating editors, in terms of controlling vandalism.  However we do have a case here where a vandal who is blocked on sight has expressed a wish to perform useful edits.  I don't see any problem with this, none of the change will facilitate further vandalism by that editor, and at the very worst we can go back to block-on-sight.  In other words, there is no down side to this. --Tony Sidaway 23:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


I should mention that I know of atleast one vandal who is now an admin, after completely reforming and apparently becoming completely addicted. I won't mention the name though. :) --Phroziac 01:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

He got over 70 supports, and I nominated him... Redwolf24 (talk) 04:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


The new ProbeCom... err,  Mentorship Committee

In response to the recent unbannings of Marmot and Jarlaxle, a new cabal/organization/committee has been formed by none other than Redwolf24, Linuxbeak, NicholasT, and Cool Cat.  Originally titled the Probation Committee, it is now entitled the Mentorship Committee.  The basic idea is that monitoring users for probation violations was currently too difficult, since one could not put Special:Contribs on a watchlist, say, but rather one had to manually check periodically the user being probated's contribution page to see whether there were any new ones.  So, Cool Cat adapted an IRC bot, which filter RC for edits by specified users, and sends them to a channel. Currently, the bot and members of MentCom are in the #wikipedia-probation channel on Freenode.  This organization is open to all comers, although the three users specifically assigned to monitoring a probed user preferably are experienced admins, and being on the Board (or being a "Mentifex" as Board members are entitled) is currently restricted to founding members.
The ArbCom seems interested in whether this new committee will work out and intrigued by its potential, as mere hours after the first discussions began in #Misplaced Pages, ArbCom assigned MentCom to monitor Onefortyone in addition to the self-assigned monitoring of Jarlaxle Artemis and Marmot.  Given that each case requires at least three users (preferably admins), and that there are a number of users under probation, more users and esp. admins are needed by MentCom. Volunteers are very welcome. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 02:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Good luck keeping an eye on 141, that's quite a few IP's to watch :) --Jtkiefer   ----- 02:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Fortunately, the bot can handle ranges. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 02:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That'd be 80.141.0.0/16   and no, it can't handle ranges... :( --Redwolf24 (talk) 03:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

What? Are you sure? I was pretty sure that I saw with mine own two eyes that the bot accepted a number of IP addresses after getting a range inputted, back when CC was fiddling with the bot. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 03:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It was one address at a time, and if I know my math, a /16 range is 65,536 addresses. You have any idea how much of a flood that is? o.O Redwolf24 (talk) 04:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

A big one.  We should watch the range regardless- it may be a lot of addresses, but it is not a lot of edits. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 04:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

"The ArbCom seems interested in whether this new committee will work out and intrigued by its potential, as mere hours after the first discussions began in #Misplaced Pages, ArbCom assigned MentCom to monitor Onefortyone in addition to the self-assigned monitoring of Jarlaxle Artemis and Marmot." - this is a rather glaring mistatement. The Onefortyone case was closed over a week ago, and he was put on probation. Anyone can enforce the probation. If a group of users wishes to do it in a more organized fashion, that's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean other users cannot. --→Raul654 04:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Raul, I wrote that because we didn't ask for 141 to be assigned us- we assigned ourselves Jarlaxle and Marmot, but we were busy organizing things.  It was Fred Bauer (a member of ArbCom, I believe) who told us to monitor 141 mere hours after the page first went up.  I think this unilateral, unsought action of his justifies my description. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 04:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, that's fine then, just so long as it's clear this in no way gives you exclusivity in the matter  (e.g., others are free to enforce the probation too). →Raul654 04:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Removal of NPOV dispute tags

User:Sean_Black has repeatedly removed the NPOV dispute tag from Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, despite the fact that there is a continuing debate on the talk page. It is my understanding that dispute tags are to be removed by consensus, not unilaterally by a disputant. --HK 15:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Checkuser page?

Now that we have a group of new checkusers, would it be useful to create a central page (e.g. WP:AN/CU) where others users can go to request a checkuser on an alleged sock, and hear the result (or, of course "request denied" if inappropriate)? Or would that be overdoing it? Radiant_>|< 16:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but we need some (fairly informal) system, or it will become - 'I'll ask my pal in IRC', which feels a little, well... cabalish. I'd be interested to hear what those with the facility think. How would they wish to be approached with suggestions/requests for a check? Would they like to develop some guidelines to indicate in what situations they would consider a request, and when not to even bother asking? Doc  16:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Here are the uses of the tool from m:CheckUser_Policy:Use of the tool

The tool is to be used to fight vandalism or check abuse of sockpuppets, for example when there is a suspicion of illegal voting. It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.
It is not allowed to use the tool for political control, nor to apply pressure on editors, nor as a threat toward an editor with whom you are in disagreement. There must be a valid motive to check a user (a bare disagreement with the leaders of a wiki is not a valid motive).
It is allowed to check an editor ips upon his specific request, when this user wants to publicly prove his innocence.
As a reminder, sockpuppets are not generally forbidden (editors may edit wikipedia under several accounts). It is the abuse of sockpuppets use (and in particular voting twice under two different names) which is severally frowned upon.
Notification to the one checked is not mandatory, but checkuser may choose to tell the person checked if they feel it best. Similarly, notification of the check to the community is not mandatory, but may be done as long as private information is not released.
Fred Bauder 18:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

So what are the purposes sockpuppets can be used for and how serious does the matter need to be to justify using a sockpuppet check. A related question, if two accounts are doing the same bad thing, what is the point of doing one? Fred Bauder 18:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Complaint about William M. Connolley's behaviour on the Aetherometry pages

On November 13, 2005, William M. Connolley deleted from a talk page, Talk:Aetherometry, a comment made by me that he didn't like, and changed the category for the Misplaced Pages entry Aetherometry in personal revenge for my comment.    This is not only abusive, unprofessional, and damaging to Misplaced Pages's image as a dependable, unbiased source of actual knowledge, but also a blatant violation of Misplaced Pages policies. FrankZappo 19:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

He was being vigorously attacked, perhaps he did not do exactly the right thing, but I'd say under the circumstances it is forgivable. Fred Bauder 20:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

He did it again, this time with a longer section, containing my orginal (reinstated) comment, a commentary on the reinstatement, and a paragraph addressed to another user and having nothing to do with Connolley.  Moreover, removal of whatever it is that he doesn't like seems to be Connolley's standard reponse to feeling "attacked".  I've seen him do this many times before.  FrankZappo 20:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That experienced users who are experts on particular topics must respond in this way to being piled on by crazed POV-pushers is unfortunate. To act as though the burden of blame for this unfortunate thing rests upon the sensible, however, is doubly so. Phil Sandifer 21:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, this remark is formulated in terms that are a bit too abstract for me.  When you refer to "experts on particular topics", are you referring to Connolley?  If so, then I am sorry to say that you are mistaken; Connolley has absolutely no expertise in the subject of Aetherometry, and all his pronouncements on the subject have been aprioristic, ignorant, and arbitrary.  What makes you call him as an "expert" in this context?  And if by "crazed POV-pushers" you are referring to me, then I would like you to explain what exact POV it is I am supposedly pushing, and in what way I am "crazed".   FrankZappo 21:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Connolley is a scientist. You are a believer that Aetherometry is a remotely reasonable thing to believe in. This pretty much renders Connolley more qualified to talk about any issue remotely related to science than you. Phil Sandifer 21:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but no dice.  I do not believe that "Aetherometry is a thing to believe in" any more than I believe that Quantum Mechanics is a "thing to believe in".  What I believe is that Aetherometry is a serious scientific endeavour and should be treated as such.   I say this on the basis of having studied and thought about the Aetherometry research papers, which report in great detail the experimental and theoretical methods used.  As far as I know, Connoley has done no such thing.  To call his appraisal "scientific" and mine that of a "believer" is completely upside down.   FrankZappo 21:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

WMC is one of the most knowledgeable and level-heading contributors around here.  Unfortunately the topics in which he has knowledge are infested with POV-pushers of bizarre pseudoscientific ideas.  I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Pseudoscience. Dunc|☺ 21:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This remark is not applicable to the case at hand.  Connolley has no knowledge of Aetherometry, and neither have you.  It is you and Connolley that are pushing a POV - the POV that Aetherometry, about whose methods and approaches you know nothing, is "bizarre" and "pseudoscientific".  Just because Connolley says so doesn't make it so.  FrankZappo 21:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Regardless, it is so. Phil Sandifer 22:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I see.  And it is I who is being called a "POV pusher"?  FrankZappo 22:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Please do not post slurs of any kind on this page. This includes avoiding headings that are themselves personal attacks. I've changed the accusatory heading of this thread for a more neutral heading that also supplies more information. Please take a look at the TOC for the page, and you'll get a better idea of what kind of heading is appropriate. Thank you. Bishonen | talk 22:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've supplied still more information.  FrankZappo 22:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

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