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Toynbees

Nice job on fixing up Toynbee; I'm impressed you can keep track on all these guys. -- John Fader (talk · contribs) 23:53, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't actually, Google does. ;-) --Thorsten1 19:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet_War

Thanks for your mediation efforts on Talk:Polish-Soviet_War. I'll not respond to your last comment there if you don't mind. I just don't think we want to continue this discussion. Everyone seems to have said most of what they had to... And the discussion seems rather fruitless. I believe you'll agree with me on this and won't feel offended. The article is neither about the pact nor calls it an alliance anyway. However if you feel I should respond, just let me know on my talk page. Wojsyl 18:46, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, that's fine, I think the discussion has run its course. For the record, I was actually not taking offence with the word "alliance" in itself, but with the uncompromising claims that this is in fact the best and only correct word, or that it is completely incorrect, respectively. I still feel, though, that "pact" would help to avoid such fruitless discussions in the future. --Thorsten1 20:06, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

VfD: Nazi or German Occupation?

Check this VfD vote: --Ttyre 19:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism in Poland

You might be interested in this discussion. --Ttyre 14:29, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Polish Wikipedians' notice board/Black Book

Thank you for your eloquent and incisive defense of me on this VfD discussion. I think your recent comment hits the nail on the head. Nohat 22:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Welcome, and thanks for your comment. --Thorsten1 12:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

William I. Thomas

Nice :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 08:47, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dziękuję ślicznie za komplement. ;-). --Thorsten1 13:45, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

persona non grata

Are you persona non grata among apparently Polish wikipedians, as Tomer claims on Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/Anti-Polonism? I most certainly hope not...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

SylwiaS appeared to be somewhat less than happy with my comments in the VFD against the Polish Wikipedias' Black Book. Whether or not the plural form used by Tomer is justified is not up for me to decide. --Thorsten1 10:43, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Thorsten, yes, I didn’t agree with your comments, but I seriously hope, you don’t think that it has anything to do with my personal attitude to you. I guess we may disagree on many things in the future and also be in complete agreement on many other things. I really hope, we can agree on this one now. --SylwiaS 01:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Sylwia, thanks for your conciliatory statement. Still, I fear the consensus between us is rather fragile and superficial. But you are right anyway - let's keep the hatchet buried for as long as we don't need it... ;) --Thorsten1 17:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism in Poland (again)

Hey, Thorsten. I've reverted the article to a more NPOV version by Piotrus. Someone has been reverting it to a very POV verison so as to increase the number of delete votes. Feel free to take a second look. Thanks. HKT 22:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I'll change my vote based on Piotrus's version. --Thorsten1 22:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus has re-phrased his vote Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland to delete unless... could you reconsider your vote? --Ttyre 19:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I just did. Even though it renders the chaotic discussion even more unreadable. --Thorsten1 20:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

A-P

I question validity of a number of statements you have made in Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland such as "...żydokomuna is very much a Polish issue" or "...the events of 1968 are quite unparalleled." In the US, during the interwar (see: Father Coughlin, The Dearborn Independent) and post-WWII (especially during the Joseph McCarthy-era) periods, there were persistent accusations of bolshevism and association with communism made against Jews. The expulsions of the Jewish communities from Iran and most Arab countries draw parallels with the anti-Zionist events of 1968 Poland. --Ttyre 10:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I would be tempted to agree if McCarthyism and comparable events had resulted, say, in Jews being removed from their jobs or denied access to universities on grounds of being Jewish, and a subsequent exodus of the majority of American Jews.
Also, Iran and the Arab world are understandably not the standard Poles normally ask to be measured against. When I said "unparalleled", I naturally meant "unparalleled" in the sphere of Western civilisation which Poland vehemently insisted on belonging to. --Thorsten1 10:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

"Let's try to stay civil..." I agree with you wholeheartedly. Consequently, sometimes I do call and challenge editors when the Misplaced Pages:Civility rules are being violated (see Soapboxing? discussion in Talk:Anti-Semitism). Also, if you are concerned with this issue, you might take a look at the IZAK's recent entries in the Talk:History of the Jews in Poland "History of JEWS and Judaism in Poland" section. --Ttyre 10:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. The article isn't on my watchlist yet, but I am going to have a look as soon as I have the time. If I find any unjustified accusations of anti-whatever-ism, I'm going to leave a comment. --Thorsten1 10:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Quotes from HKT entries in Talk:Anti-Semitism's Soapboxing? section: "...More Poles collaborated in having Jews sent to death camps than were themselves sent to death camps..." and "There are some historians, like Lukas, who deny rampant Polish collaboration with Nazis." IZAK's entries in Talk:History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#History_of_JEWS_and_Judaism_in_Poland_vs._History_of_Poland_and_its_impact_on_Jews.3F are too long to quote here - see them for yourself. --Ttyre 17:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I left a comment regarding HKT's statement of fact on collaboration. As for IZAK's reduction of Polish culture to "boar-hunting and beer-drinking", this has little to do with the point under discussion and is so obviously an unqualified POV judgment and provocation that no comment is required. --Thorsten1 10:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC).

Hey Thorsten1, I've decided my wikibreak was an insufferable sham, so I came back. At this point I'm still considering opening an RfC against Witkacy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and possibly against TheUnforgiven (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) simultaneously, although TheUnforgiven is so obviously insane that that may be unnecessary. At the same time, I'm thinking maybe I should just stay out of Poland and Polish-related articles, since Troll Witkacy reigns supreme there. The utterly nonsensical "Anti-Polonism" and the unspeakable idiocy brought to the fore during its VfD demonstrate that there are a number of Polish editors whose view of the world is utterly unhinged from reality. I'm not here to snap people out of their fantasies tho. Eventually the rampant insanity will get so out of hand that people with bigger sticks than I will step in to stop it. As it is, I'm thinking perhaps it would just be prudent to warn people not to believe anything about Poland or Poland-related articles on WP and save myself the agony of trying to reason with such obvious incompetence. There are several very good editors involved with those articles, but Troll Witkacy seems to regard any such articles as his personal property, and until he's disabused of that erroneous notion, perhaps I oughtta just stay away. Tomer 03:12, July 25, 2005 (UTC) Woohoo! I knew it! . Gawd I hate trolls. Tomer 20:39, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your note, and sorry for the delay in replying - I was (am) up to my ears in other stuff and took a complete break from Misplaced Pages.
It's really not much fun to engage in Poland-related topics, as uber-defensive paranoid patriots will likely "correct" any edit to suit their preconceptions about Poland vs. The World - and if you beg to differ, they will try and frame you as anti-Polish. They believe to be protecting Poland's image in the world, or at least on Misplaced Pages, when in fact, if anything, they are accomplishing the opposite - as our readers certainly detect bias, and will begin to steer clear of Poland-related stuff. At best, uninitiated users might consider Misplaced Pages's coverage of Poland an isolated POV backwater of some kind; at worst, they will grow disappointed with Misplaced Pages's overall ability to maintain a NPOV throughout. Worse, they might even identify the POV pushers' spasmodic zeal with the Polish nation as a whole, so that, ironically, they might well fuel the very sentiment they oppose.
The worst single case is obviously Anti-Polonism. This is Western betrayal pushed to the extreme. Unfortunately, I argued "keep" in its VfD - as the word itself is very widespread in Poland, and I was naive enough to believe the article could be improved towards a good explanation of how and by whom the word is actually used. It seems, however, that Anti-Polonism's surviving the VfD only stimulated the "patriots", who apparently feel legitimised to soapbox with a vengeance now. As a result, the article is becoming even less instead of more NPOV.
What surprised me most is that it even proved impossible to quarantine this mess with a neutrality warning... This is really bad for Misplaced Pages. What disappoints me most, though, is that even the more thoughtful and constructive Polish editors seem to tolerate such POV pushing and blatant disinformation as long as it is coming from their compatriots - be it out of some misunderstood sense of solidarity or even tacit approval.
Unfortunately, Witkacy's edits are not even the worst. Over the last few days I have observed, with increasing concern, the doings of a new editor calling himself Molobo. Apart from being unable to write a single grammatical sentence, he seems to be ridden with every kind of "Ciemnogród" xenophobia you can think of; even worse, he frequently inserts information that is either plain wrong - such as the US giving Adenauer's West Germany "nuclear capable" weapons and Germany trying to produce nuclear weapons; or deliberately makes the reader jump to wrong conclusions - such as German courts banning Polish parents from talking Polish to their children - the latter example is from Anti-Polonism. In Polish internal affairs, he argues from a far-out right-wing position; he even went as far as saying that Wisława Szymborska helped "implement Stalinist rule" because she wrote some politically correct (at the time) stuff in her youth. If you're interested, take a look at my discussion with him at Talk:Roman Giertych and in the edit history of that article... That will give you a good idea of his type of "arguments".
Anyway, thanks for exchanging your thoughts with another Polonophobe... ;)

--Thorsten1 20:43, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Note: I moved the fragment below to Talk:Konrad Adenauer, because this is where it belongs and where it may be needed to understand an ongoing edit skirmish. Please do not edit below this note. --Thorsten1 20:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC)'

" he frequently inserts information that is either plain wrong such as the US giving Adenauer's West Germany "nuclear capable" weapons and Germany trying to produce nuclear weapons;"
Wrong info ? Not really:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,357281,00.html
"The United States brought its first nuclear weapons into the former West Germany in March 1955. The first weapons were aerial bombs, followed by artillery grenades, cruise missiles, rockets and mines. In 1957, then Chancellor Konrad Adenauer demanded that the German military also receive these modern weapons. German forces were then equipped with nuclear-compatible heavy artillery guns with a maximum range of 30 kilometers and missiles with ranges of more than 700 kilometers."
http://www.bits.de/public/policynote/pn05-3.htm
"A couple of days later he went one step further by stating, that in the event of war the USA were willing to hand over nuclear weapons to the allies, for example Germany, for use by their delivery systems. Shortly afterwards Chancellor Konrad Adenauer publicly voiced interest in equipping the Bundeswehr with nuclear capable delivery systems."
In future try to research something before attacking somebody--Molobo 20:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect, Molobo, I do not feel the need to be lectured on German history by someone who so obviously lacks any historical training and knowledge. I'm afraid I must back down on my former speculation that you were studying at Rydzyk University. It's even worse than that: Apparently you are studying at Google University... Rest assured that West Germany has never been in control of any nuclear weapons and there was never any chance of the USA making any such weapons available to Adenauer. The nuclear weapons stored on West German territory were strictly under Allied control. --Thorsten1 20:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
"Lacks any any historical training and knowledge"
It is not me that claimed information about Adenauer pursuing nuclear capable weapons was wrong :)
"Rest assured that West Germany has never been in control of any nuclear weapons"
I see that you have problems with reading."Pursuit" isn't "control"
I advise you to read the report :
http://www.georgetown.edu/sfs/cges/docs/Docs_Working_Papers_Page/Working_Paper_Carson_8-04.pdf
Going Nuclear: Science, Politics, and Risk in the Federal Republic of Germany in the 1950'1 Cathryn Carson Department of History University of California, Berkeley
"During the first part of the 1950s, it is worth saying, Adenauer remained committed to a conventional defense, and in the sovereignty negotiations in 1954 he formally renounced the production of nuclear weapons on German territory. However, certain maneuvers by the government and some industrialists in siting the reactor station generated concern. Adenauer’s commitment to a conventional defense in Central Europe began to waver, we now know, around 1954 or 1955.43 With the Federal Republic then joining NATO, military and political leaders began to talk about providing nuclear-capable equipment to Bundeswehr units. Even more, after a 1956 crisis in GermanAmerican trust, Adenauer confidentially raised the idea that the Federal Republic might need to produce its own nuclear weapons. That winter, the new defense minister Franz-Josef Strauß, who had up until then been the atomic minister, negotiated a secret agreement with France on military (potentially including nuclear) cooperation.44 If military use had not been on the agenda when the nuclear venture was started, it became more problematic once it was a going concern. As much as Adenauer’s ill-famed allusions to “small” NATO nuclear weapons for the Bundeswehr, rumors of these other developments were the occasion for the nuclear scientists’ famous public intervention."
It seems you need to lecture this person about being wrong.He is part of University of California.Did Rydzyk open a branch there ? :)
--Molobo 12:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Molobo, I spent much of yesterday evening combatting your POV-stricken edits, something I have no intention of repeating today. I am going to comment on your shadow-boxing show later, however on Talk:Konrad Adenauer - as we should not scatter the discussion over too many different places. In order to enable other users to follow the argument behind conflicting edits without having to peruse the talk pages of the involved editors, any such discussions should take place strictly on that article's talk page. --Thorsten1 20:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

End of the part moved to Talk:Konrad Adenauer

Wiktacy's deletions at Anti-Polonism

Would you mind taking a look at Wiktacy's deletions of content at Anti-Polonism, and my comments regarding that in Talk: there? Your opinion would be welcome. Jayjg 21:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. However, I think that the article is completely beyond repair as a whole - clearing it of Witkacy's POV edits wouldn't be more than a drop in the ocean... For the time being, let's insert a neutrality warning - I think nobody can seriously object to that. --Thorsten1 10:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Note to self: "I think nobody can seriously object to that." Seems like I was wrong. Heated controversies on talk and VfD do not count - the article is officially neutral. Oh, and the earth is flat. --Thorsten1 09:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Davies

who are the other western colleagues? - Could you provide names and quotes?--Witkacy 10:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd say roughly at least 50% of all lecturers. Ever been to a class on East European history in the UK, US or Germany, or overheard discussions at conferences? Feel free to read my longish dispute with User:Jehudit on Talk:Norman Davies including extensive quotes from a review of Rising '44. Note that I do not claim this criticism is ultimately justified. I just think that sweeping it under the carpet is not a good idea at all. To insinuate, as you do, that criticism of Davies is strictly the domain of a few individuals who just happen to be Jewish is either naive or a deliberate attempt at creating a false impression. Against the backdrop of your recent "patriotic" comments in connection with anti-Polonism and anti-Semitism I fear that the latter possibility is closer to the truth. --Thorsten1 10:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Rasizm

Nie prosze Pana Thorstena, Polacy nie sa odmienna rasa (nawiazuje do wypowiedzi na stronie Malobo), ale kazda anty-wypowiedz wobec rasy LUB narodowosci jest rasizmem - i chyba glebiej tego nie musze tlumaczyc? A tak na marginesie, nadal czekam na dokladne wypowiedzi i nazwiska wyzej wymienionych "western colleagues" pozdrawiam--Witkacy 20:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

As for the unfortunate usage of "racism", I already commented on that on Molobo's talk page. As for Norman Davies, I take it you did not read my reply above? Please do so. And do read my dispute with Jehudith from a few months ago - you will find extensive quotes from an author who is, to the best of my knowledge, not Jewish - although I am afraid if you require any Ariernachweis (certificate of Aryan descent) you would have to contact him yourself. --Thorsten1 20:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Ostatni raz prosze o nazwy tych rzekomych "western colleagues" - lubisz krecic i atakowac a nie potrafisz odpowiedziec na proste pytanie. A co do Ariernachweis, "Twoi" byli kiedys w tym mistrzami, wiec mi z takim czyms nie podjezdzaj--Witkacy 21:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
A ty chyba nie potrafisz czytać?! --Thorsten1 21:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Sluchaj, nic wiecej nie chce wiedziec - dodales do artykulu krytyki, teraz przedstaw nazwiska, jesli tego nie zrobisz, skasuje w artykule ten watek (tylko wymien jakies bardziej znane, nieznani szczekacze mnie nie interesuja)--Witkacy 21:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Rób czego chcesz. Potem zobaczymy dalej! --80.145.23.131 21:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
To Twoja odpowiedz?--Witkacy 21:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Mmmm... właśnie nie, ale przypadkowo zgadzam się całkowicie z anoninem!
On another note, do you mind if I translate your comment above? "A co do Ariernachweis, "Twoi" byli kiedys w tym mistrzami, wiec mi z takim czyms nie podjezdzaj" -> "As for the Ariernachweis , it is "your" folks who used to be experts in this, so don't accost me with something like this". You see, Witkacy, on Norman Davies I mentioned the criticism of Davies by "Western" historians, which you changed to "Jewish colleagues" , implying that such criticism is exclusively coming from Jews. When I changed this back, you implicitly challenged me to provide sources by non-Jewish authors (see above). In the face of this, the remark about the Ariernachweis, although admittedly cynical, is supported by facts and fully justified - whereas your statement about "my folks" is purely ad hominem (and wide off the mark). --Thorsten1 20:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
To nie byles Ty? Poprzedni anon pochodzil z Aalen (sprawdzalem IP) - ale moze rzeczywiscie to tylko zbieg okolicznosci... Wracajac do sprawy, drogi Thorstenie, poprosilem o nazwiska i wypowiedzi, o niczym wiecej nie chce rozmawiac. Poprostu chce poczytac te krytyki o ktorych napisales w artykule, czy bylo by mozliwe otrzymanie od Ciebie linkow do nich? (czy nie jest mozliwe? mozesz napisac ze nie jest, jesli nie posiadasz - ale juz nie krec)--Witkacy 20:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Przepraszam jesli by Cie urazil jezyk w ktorym Ci odpowiadam (wyzej pisales po angielsku, nie wiem czy na pokaz, czy jako sugestie ze polski jezyk Ci nie odpowiada, a ze poznalem troche Volksdeutschow ktorzy nie przepadali za polska mowa, wole z gory przeprosic)--Witkacy 21:10, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"ale moze rzeczywiscie to tylko zbieg okolicznosci... " Dziwny zbieg okoliczności, skoro w Aalen nigdy w życiu nie byłem i nic o tym miejscu nie wiem - nie mam więc zielonego pojęcia dlaczego myślisz że akurat stamtąd pochodzę. Jest tam jakieś gniazdo antypolonistów? ;) Mniejsza z tym. "Poprostu chce poczytac te krytyki o ktorych napisales w artykule, czy bylo by mozliwe otrzymanie od Ciebie linkow do nich". Jak już napisałem powyżej, nie wszystko co mówi się w kręgach akademickich na zachodzie można znaleźć w internecie. Jeśli myślisz, że dlatego nie ma znaczenia, jesteś, jak również napisałem powyżej, w najlepszym razie naiwny. Ale po co w ogóle chcesz ze mną dyskutować? W końcu i tak jestem tylko anty-polskim rasistą...
"wyzej pisales po angielsku, nie wiem czy na pokaz" - chyba dość wyraźnie wytłumaczyłem dlaczego. I tak na marginesie, skoro jesteśmy na anglojęzycznej Wikipedii zastrzegam sobie prawo do pisania po angielsku. Życzę dobrej nocy! --Thorsten1 22:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"nigdy w życiu nie byłem i nic o tym miejscu nie wiem - nie mam więc zielonego pojęcia dlaczego myślisz że akurat stamtąd pochodzę." nawiazywalem do tego anona, ktory wyskoczyl, jak z kosmosu.
"Jak już napisałem powyżej, nie wszystko co mówi się w kręgach akademickich na zachodzie można znaleźć w internecie."
Czyli rozumiem ze nie mamy nic (dowodu) by potwierdzic Twoj wpis w artykule Daviesa o rzekomych "zachodnich krytykach" tak? (pytam sie dla pewnosci, bo gdybys mial to bys przedstawil) Kolorowych snow zycze --Witkacy 22:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Nie jestem ani kosmosmu, ani z tego Aalen. Folksdojczem zresztą też nie jestem... ;) Co do "dowodów" z internetu - nie, nie dysponuje żadnymi dowodami z internetu. Ale jak pisałem, to wcale nie znaczy, że tych opinii nie ma. Po prostu nie mam ochoty szukać "dowodów" na to, co jest oczywistością dla każdego, kto trochę zna realia na zachodnich uniwersytetach. --Thorsten1 22:33, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Za Twoje klamstwa na stronie glosowania BB, jednak nie zycze Ci kolorowych snow. Co do Volksdeutschow (u Ciebie jest to obrazliwe slowo?) to bardzo fajni ludzie, troche przebiegli i klamliwi, ale ogolnie sa bardzo mili. P.S. na jutro przygotuj material co do Daviesa.--Witkacy 23:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
How is any of this relevant to anything?! Tomer 23:59, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Szymborska

Skoro ma byc "renounced her former work" to czy możesz mi podać żródło lub cytat gdzie przeprasza za wiersze chwalące Stalina, rolę partii komunistycznej, walkę o socjalizm ? Z góry dziękuję.--Molobo 20:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Proszę przeczytaj co napisałem na Talk:Wisława Szymborska. Z góry dziękuję. --Thorsten1 20:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
PS: Zresztą wcale nie jestem wielkim fanem Szymborskiej. Ale NPOV i NOR obowiązuje również dla nie-fanów.
Co jest POV w podaniu linków do jej twórczości ? Nie widzę też nic złego w podaniu informacji o uczestnictwie w petycji przeciw księżom.Nie ma tam nic osobistego poza suchymi faktami.Jak chcesz możesz umieścić że takie petycje były często podpisywane przez osoby pracujące na rzecz komunistycznego reżimu.--Molobo 20:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Chyba dobrze wiesz, że nie chodzi o te linki. Co do reszty Twojej wypowiedzi - po prostu przeczytaj co napisałem na talk. --Thorsten1 21:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Chodzi ci o petycje w Krakowie ? Przecież to znany i krytykowany aspekt Szymborskiej. Czyżby ci coś w nim przeszkadzało ? :)
--Molobo 22:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
"Przecież to znany i krytykowany aspekt Szymborskiej" - przez kogo? Anyhow, I suggest to conduct this discussion exclusively on Talk:Wisława Szymborska, and to keep it in English, in order to keep it transparent for all interested users and to make it available as a resource for any future procedure against you. --Thorsten1 00:04, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"przez kogo"
No ładnie.A przecież podałem żródło.Nawet nie czytasz tego co kasujesz.--Molobo 11:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Coś takiego! No, takie jest chyba ryzyko kiedy ktoś pisze kupę bzdur... --Thorsten1 20:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Try

...to concentrate on facts not on attacks on people.--Molobo 22:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

VfD you may be interested in

Check out the VfD going on over User:Witkacy/Black Book. Tomer 23:04, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Tomer. Much to own surprise, I voted keep, only half in jest... ;) --Thorsten1 00:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Car theft

No offence taken, we're all but researchers here, my friend. As to the car thefts: the problem is that the only research I could find a trace to was related to a question on "how many of the thiefs to steal German cars do you think are related to Poland". As such, the answer hardly was any evidence to prove that there were more Polish car thieves in Germany than there were German thieves in Poland... Halibutt 01:41, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly, another report I have read (can't be bothered to look it up now) states that up to one third of all cars reported stolen in Poland by their German owners were in fact secretly sold there. However, there certainly must be some reason why people came up with this kind of insurance fraud in the first place. --Thorsten1 21:44, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Ein Satz mit 10 Woertern und 4 Luegen? Ein ehrlicher Pole faehrt nuechtern mit seinem Wagen zur Arbeit--Witkacy 22:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

anti-Polonism and Turks

You mention under the section NPOV tag by User:Thorsten1 at Talk:anti-Polonism that Turks are treated similarly and equally as Poles. Can you cite an example of such handling by German officials? I know there is certain (south) Italian minority in Germany. Can you find similar cases for Italians? I agree with your opinion that German courts do not handle Polishmen differently than other nationalities wrt. the rights. My German is simply to weak to effectively find something relevant in the German Internet.

I contributed something in the section Anti-Polonism#Germans-Polish friendship. Can you help and find examples of other actions and activities that promote positive attitude of Germans to Poles? Alx-pl 13:24, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your level-headed input at Talk:anti-Polonism. "Can you cite an example of such handling by German officials" - well, I certainly can't provide any instructions like "Treat Turks and Poles equally". Apart from that, I think the burden of proof should be on those who claim that Poles are treated worse than other nationals - and by that I obviously do not mean any hyped-up cases of obvious bureaucratic narrow-mindedness.
Regarding the comparison with the Turkish community: Until recently, Poles and Turks without German citizenship had the same legal status; from 2004, Poles are, of course, privileged over Turks and put on the same footing as Austrians as EU citizens. (Even though certain obstacles remain for a transitional period, which are outcomes of mutual bargaining and work both ways).
A substantial portion of persons with a Polish background in Germany are also privileged by the fact that the German authorities, caught in the inconsistencies of patchworked immigration rules, have to be quite lax about their usual no-dual-citizenship approach.
Needless to say, there is a much greater religious, cultural - and physical - affinity between Poles and Germans, so it is much easier for Poles to assimilate and avoid the problems resulting from both real and perceived deficient assimilation that Turks face.
In short, both the privileges and disadvantages that Turks enjoy or suffer, respectively, in comparison with Poles result from their greater number, greater in-group homogeneity, and greater cultural distance from German society at large.
Another factor that comes into play here: Poles, or persons with some Polish background, permanently residing in Germany show a remarkable indifference towards the "Polonia" organisations that wish to represent them politically, which are smallish and constantly at odds with each other. This makes it easy for the German authorities to ignore demands made by the few active Polonia groups; a situation which must be frustrating for the activists, but which has at least as much to do with their own clientele's political indifference and contentment with the status quo as with any German anti-Polonism. Of course, it is much easier for them to blame the Germans than the very people they want to represent...
Another favourite argument to "prove" German anti-Polonism (and supposed Polish Germanophilia) is the different legal status of the autochthonous "German" minority in Poland and the allochthonous "Polish" minority in Germany; this however, is based on a linguistic fallacy that ascribes an identical or similar quality to both groups, even though they are structurally and historically entirely different. The argument is further invalidated by the fact that those who call for a maximum of political rights for Poles outside Poland, more often than not, tend to be the same people who voice concerns about the influence of minorities (such as Germans or Jews) within Poland itself.
All that being said, I think nobody is seriously disputing that the image of Poland in Germany contains more negative than positive elements - although it is arguably much better than many Poles are inclined to believe; and certainly much better than the image of Germany in Poland (but that is quite another story).
The fact remains though, that the term anty-polonizm is generally used in a very different way than the article anti-Polonism suggests, namely in the context of Polish-Jewish conflict - as has been thoroughly pointed out during the VfD. (By the way, an instructive example of the word's real usage is an open letter co-signed by no other than Wojciech Pomorski -- yes, that Wojciech Pomorski, interesting, isn't it?, who also set up another Polonia splinter group in Germany. The letter attacks Kazimierz Wójcicki, who just happens to "wywodzi się ze środowiska KOR-owskiego i jest związany z UW", as "anti-Polish" for mentioning the existence of anti-Semitism in Poland...) At best, the article can be called a piece of original research, and a rather lousy one at that. --Thorsten1 21:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I certainly can't provide any instructions like "Treat Turks and Poles equally". - I didn't mean that. Maybe there is a court case of a Turk who was separated from his wife and we could have a clear evidence that Mr. Pomorski case can be attributed to the slowness of the bureaucracy. An yes, the article requires a huge amount of work. I'd like to ask you what you think about this rearrangement of anti-Polonism (note, that I don't think it is going to be the final version).

As anyone who knows a bit about the situation of immigrants in Germany will agree, the proposed reversal of the burden of proof is pretty absurd. If anyone wishes to cite the Pomorski case as evidence of "anti-Polonism", they should be able demonstrate that discrimination of this kind concerns predominantly Poles. So far, we have exactly one such case involving a Polish person, and that seems a bit little to build a case on. (I'm inclined to believe that English or French-speaking parents are less likely to encounter such problems, but that's about it.) As for the different or similar treatment of Turks - suffice it to say that no Polish houses have ever been set on fire in Germany. Most Poles are simply not physically and culturally different enough to be of any interest to overzealous bureaucrats or skinhead arsonists... As for the article, that it "requires a huge amount of work" is a bit of an understatement. It needs to be re-written from scratch to become a serious source of information. If it were nominated for deletion again, I would certainly not vote keep another time. --Thorsten1 23:17, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

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I am pretty sure you would be interested in this discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)