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User:Ratel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

In the discussions for Interstitial cystitis (Talk:Interstitial_cystitis/painful_bladder_syndrome), two parties had a dispute regarding the proper implementation of citations and text in the article where it regards acupuncture (please note the policies on pseudoscience in WP:NPOV). While one party (Transity) attempted several times to reach compromise and form a consensus to improve the article, the other party (Ratel) tended towards abusive and non-constructive behavior, including constant accusations with regard to the WP:SPA policy.

Having come to the article for information, I noticed the edit war and read the discussion with disbelief. Transity put a request for opinions in the discussion, and I contributed mine. As they were at odds with Ratel's opinions, he chose to ignore the topic of conversation (not the first time he was in violation of WP:TPG in this discussion - I've never wittingly read any of his other contributions) and continue to accuse, insult, and insinuate rather than engage in discussion.

Ratel's behavior is clearly confrontational, rather than constructive, and his baseless and immediate accusations are in clear violation of WP guidelines WP:RFC:

Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and civil, and assume good faith in other editors' actions.

I would like to invite other users to examine the discussion and contribute their opinions, both on the actual subject of the discussion, and on Ratel's behavior. I am informing Ratel of this Wikiquette alert, as well as informing him of my intention to consider an official RfC if both the issue and his behavior remain unresolved.

Scramblecase (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide some specific diffs of the incivility? --neon white talk 21:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Please note that Scramblecase — see contribs — is an obvious SPA started up specifically to make this attack on me here. I am currently in a tense confrontation with a highly tendentious editor with a long history of obsessive edit warring on the Drudge Report Talk page, and (s)he has decided to expand the attack on me by stalking and starting up this distracting rearguard action. Checkuser probably won't help because this is a sophisticated user who knows how to use proxies and/or the local library's computers to make this attack. Suggestion: ignore or block this SPA. Thanks. ► RATEL ◄ 22:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

WQAs aren't attacks, they are an informal process to help editors improve difficult communications. If you believe this is a sockpuppet then file a case, we can't really deal with that here. --neon white talk 08:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

See where he leaps into a totally different discussion on an admin's page asserting " I strongly suggest you heed the complaints of other editrs about this individual", repeats charge that I was able to get a "Reliable source" changed, with es of "this is so clearly an example of admin recruitment that it should be saved for an essay on the topic" and says "Gee, I missed this section, full of lies and misrepresentations from Collect, and lots of lickspittling obsequiousness. This sort of blatant buttering up of an admin is very distasteful.". And on my talk page: "For example, in the last two days you have waited for me to arrive for my daily editing/vandalism removal session, then you pounce, trying to out-edit me and create numerous edit conflicts. It's clearly there in the logs for all to see. It's dirty pool, so stop it. I hope you have no admin ambitions, because I shall monitor your machinations and ambitions on wp and make sure everyone is apprised of your disruptive behaviour if this continues." which sounds kinda sorta threatish to me, and is likely why he is trying to assert that I am in any way connected with the fact that others have found his WP:OWN issues a probles (his edits outnumber anyone elses on Drudge Report and on Matt Drudge by five to one.) His snide claim that I am using proxies if false and defamatory as well. Was he done? " I won't comment on your claimed history of being Misplaced Pages Master of the Universe. ". But heck let's look at some other diffs ... shows just how seriously he takes facts in an article. Ratel, as can be seen by this small sample, routinely makes accusations, makes demeaning comments about editors and admins, has no conept of what "copyright" means etc. shows more of his temperament. More diffs available very readily, but I suggest the point is made without any editorial comment on my part. And here he is accusing me of "wikistalking." Collect (talk) 23:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, speak of the Devil. Hope all this venting is emotionally satisfying for you. ► RATEL ◄ 05:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd avoid referring to someone as 'the devil' in an alert about civility. --neon white talk 08:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"Speak of the devil" is an English language idiom that is not uncivil in any way.► RATEL ◄ 02:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• Assessment This seems to be a long term dispute between two editors involving incivility and bad faith accusations by both. It is probably a case for Misplaced Pages:Mediation but i like to see what other editors think. --neon white talk 08:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree. I see a pair of editors who obviously dislike one another. Threats to follow someone around are against WP:HOUND and I would not be surprised to see additional action taken. I would like to think that I can help resolve almost anything, but I believe that this one needs to follow an official mediation path at this point. I'm not going to point out the unique irony of the original article mentioned. This is not the type of behaviour that is expected at Misplaced Pages, and both editors appear to be willing to continue the argument, rather than resolve it. I can tell you this: the first one who does attempt to resolve it (and sticks to it) will have my admiration. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 09:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But wait. All this history aside, there is a problem on the discussion for Interstitial cystitis, which is why this Wikiquette alert was opened to begin with. I don't know if Scramblecase is working on behalf of Collect, and frankly I don't care. The discussion on IC needs attention, and I second the call for assistance there.

To me, Ratel's response here illustrates the same behavior he has shown in the IC discussion. Rather than addressing the actual substance of a comment (whether that's the changes being discussed on the IC article, or the very accurate characterization of his behavior above), Ratel seems to prefer insults and name-calling over substantive debate. In fact, the SPA label is one he used on me as well, among others. In addition, based on my experience with him plus the other exchanges of his that I've now read, it seems that he has significant ownership issues with several articles that he's spent time on, IC being one of them.

I agree that the larger issue here needs to be taken up elsewhere (though that larger issue, I think, should include a look at Ratel's behavior and not just his interactions with Collect), but please do not close this request out as I need help with the IC issue. I am not Collect, nor am I acting on his behalf, so my issue has nothing to do with their disagreement. --Transity 13:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your input, neon and Bwilkins. Neon, the diffs seem to be somewhat irrelevant, as the conversation itself is the crux of Ratel's behavior. (Diffs displaying single responses in a discussion don't seem, to me, to be as valuable as diffs displaying edits and re-edits in an article - discussions are already available in full on their respective pages, and, presumably, will not be "revised.") If you read the original discussion (as suggested in the guidelines for WP:WQA), you'll see his responses in context, and their sheer irrelevance and confrontational style will be self-evident. Both of these traits exist throughout the linked Talk page; my experience with him doesn't come in until the (currently) last section that Transity created, requesting opinions on the previous material.

Bwilkins, I would agree that you see a pair of editors who obviously dislike one another - now that I've perused some of Ratel's other pages, which I was avoiding to keep a neutral point of view myself, I would certainly agree that Ratel and Collect have some, er, tendentious encounters. (It's hard to avoid that conclusion, since the specific word is thrown about so frequently.) However, what you are seeing here is not a "pair of editors," for I am not, in fact, Collect; I have no reason to suspect that Transity is Collect, and as he claims he is not, I am following policy and not assuming so (unlike Ratel); and, if necessary, plenty of links can be provided to demonstrate a number of other users, all of them presumably unconnected to Collect, who have had similar experiences with Ratel (they're all over WP), including User:Gwen_Gale, who attempted some mediation between the now-infamous pair to which you refer.

Collect, while I appreciate your input, and sympathize with your experiences with Ratel, I'd like to try and keep this WQA on topic (as much as possible) for now. Your references to your experiences with Ratel are a basis for a case for repeated behavior, but for now, as I'd mentioned, I'd like to simply get the behavioral issue resolved - not punished. However...

Ratel, I'm not interested in pandering to any paranoid delusions at this point. Your description of a "sophisticated user" who would go through the trouble of proxies and what-not simply to attack you is quite telling of your general outlook on this site. After this response, I will no longer be directly addressing further accusations of sockpuppetry, nor the ridiculous WP:SPA comments, nor your tendency to WP:BITE newcomers (on frequent display elsewhere) - at least, not to you. If you truly suspect me of sockpuppetry, and you are not simply trying your frequent intimidation tactics (again, on frequent display elsewhere), feel free to make a formal complaint. Otherwise, cease these empty complaints and address the two specific issues being broached: namely, the original discussion in the IC article, and your needless and immediate confrontational behavior which does not seem targeted toward improving WP, no matter your frequent claims to do so.

Frankly, Ratel, you seem to have not only taken WP:OWNership of the IC/PBS article and the Drudge Report article (which I drudged through wearily, noting all the usual behaviors from you in your interactions with other users, including Collect), but Misplaced Pages as a whole, considering your (again) frequent threats and proclamations against other users. Your user history is quite enlightening. I apologize for my newcomer status, as you can therefore not be quite so enlightened by my history. Of course, you're free to continue assuming I'm Collect, and use his history to enlighten you about my character and motivations; however, I'd recommend you not do that, to save yourself the later embarrassment. On a side note: no offense meant to Collect, but as a published, professional writer, I'm somewhat unnerved by Ratel's assertion that I "am" Collect, having now seen a sampling of Collect's writing style. Ouch. (To both of us: apologies, Collect.)

For the record, I've already put in my opinion about the IC article itself (in the Talk page): if pseudoscience is brought in for a citation, then that itself automatically opens the door to a citation offering the majority consensus counterpoint regarding that pseudoscience; and if the second citation debunks the pseudoscience in general, that clearly qualifies as debunking the pseudoscience across the board, including the specific instance in context. ("All carp are fish" doesn't leave much wiggle room for any particular carp; it's pretty conclusive.) I don't really care if Transity's additions make it in or not (apologies to Transity), but would rather all unfounded references to pseudoscience be removed from what is a medical article, and should be held to higher standards.

Meanwhile, in regard to this WQA, I would invite other users to examine Ratel's specific behaviors in the context of the IC discussion - behaviors which are also on display in this WQA, which, sadly, I was hoping would change. Ratel, if anyone is attempting to attack you, then I sympathize; I, however, am not attacking you. WP is not about you; the articles are not about you, your tendency toward WP:OWNership notwithstanding. This WQA, of course, is about you, and I'd think you would like to represent yourself positively, rather than continue the outrageous behavior that motivated me to start the WQA in the first place. Even assuming I were a sockpuppet (apparently, I should remind you that I'm not), your responses do not put you in a good light, and I have remained largely civil throughout our exchanges. I'd urge you to keep that in mind, and begin to display some semblance of civility in return. Eschewing your WP:OWNership and WP:BITE-ing tendencies (along with your irrelevant accusations, insults, and cries of "WP:SPA") would be a step toward putting you in the positive light you would presumably like others to see. Scramblecase (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Can i ask what username or ip did Scramblecase edit under before? This is not a first edit by a user brand new to wikipedia. It shows clear knowledge of some uncommon policies. Don't be offended if Misplaced Pages:CheckUser is used in this case. If this is a sock of Collect or any other editor involved which i think is a fair suspicion, then it needs to be sorted out first. --neon white talk 14:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Truly and factually, neon, I've never had an account on WP before this one. I do, however, have extremely extensive professional and personal experience with developing and implementing web technologies, so it's not particularly hard to catch on to the protocols here. Add to that Ratel's own frequent citing of policy, and it also wasn't hard to do the research (another thing I'm required to do professionally) and get the hang of WP's policies and guidelines. The typical back and forth in exchanges like this is nothing new, either, as I've contributed to plenty of scientific and technological blog articles and threads before. In short, not only is sockpuppetry an inaccurate assessment of my status, but I am actually, factually a new user on WP. I think it's fair to say that the "suspicion" is certainly possible, just not plausible, and as only I can know that it's flat-out false (though Collect would know as well), I would simply point out that it was the immediate conclusion Ratel jumped to (since I now understand his accusatory pun in his first response to me), rather than making any examination or gleaning any evidence whatsoever. Obviously, there's little I can do to "prove" I have never had a previous WP account (or, more accurately, to disprove that I have had another account), but feel completely free to use Misplaced Pages:CheckUser - I'm not offended in the least - and in fact, if that will somehow clear this all up so we can move on to the actual issues, I'd urge someone, anyone, everyone, to do so. As I'd mentioned to Ratel in my second contribution, I have no reason to hide anything - I've been both truthful and civil in our entire exchange.

Again, and to make sure this is quite clear: my very first contribution (on the IC/PBS Talk page) was an observation of Ratel's behavior, an admonishment to stay on topic and cease being abusive, and a comment about the actual issue being discussed. The only reason this has escalated, of course, is Ratel's subsequent responses and behaviors. If this were about attacking him, then only Ratel's behavior made that possible. An effort on Ratel's part to focus on the topic and leave off the abusive behavior would have precluded the attack.

I'll be out of commission for the day (East Coast USA time), but I'll be happy to check in later this evening if I'm needed to answer any particular questions regarding the CheckUser procedure. Scramblecase (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• Some obvious points here:

1. Scramblecase is not a new user, but a sock, as any experienced editor can immediately tell. The constant use of links to wp policies is a dead giveaway. I'll eat my hat if this is a new user. In addition, the language style this SPA uses is identical to Collect, who him/herself was recently scolded for edit warring by admin Gwen Gale.diff
2. Transity is also a SPA, and a quick perusal of his edit history makes that clear (editing numerous articles to attack what he sees as unscientific alternative or complementary ("COM") medicine). Calling him a SPA is simply WP:SPADE. I have now compromised with Transity on the IC/PBS page and instituted an edit that should satisfy all parties.
3. The topic of this mischievous alert should actually be Collect/Scramblecase, who is disrupting several pages on wikipedia at the moment as well as wasting my precious time. ► RATEL ◄ 00:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you're the only one who thinks that questioning your behavior is a waste of time, Ratel. No one else seems to be coming to that conclusion. The uninvolved parties here haven't said that you have acted responsibly - in fact, they see problems on both sides of your interactions with Collect. So let's not be so hasty.

I have no idea if Scramblecase is a sockpuppet. I imagine that an admin would have to look into that. If you want to start that investigation, by all means do so. I have no history with Collect (or Scramblecase), so until I see evidence otherwise, I will assume good faith and believe that Scramblecase is exactly what he/she claims to be.

Calling me a SPA (yet again), though, is what this problem is about. In my interactions with you, you're responses were often nothing more than insults and invective (much like your responses here, and apparently on other pages as well). I also find it ironic that someone who has the overwhelming bulk of their edits on about three articles and the associated talk pages is so quick to toss around terms like SPA. Finally, I think the automatic negative connotation associated with someone who focuses on one type of article or one type of information is undeserved. If a person is doing that to the detriment of WP, then by all means, they aren't acting properly. If they are focusing on what they know and improving WP, then I see nothing negative about their behavior. So when you throw around that term at everyone you come across, it actually makes it clear that you care more about the leter of the law than about the actual content being discussed. That's a problem. You should think about both of these issues I raised before tossing this term around in the future.

No, we have not compromised on the IC edit. Although it appeared we had, Ratel has reversed course and we are stuck at the same point we were when this WQA was opened. He remains intractable.

Even if we had reached agreement, that wouldn't mean that your behavior is above reproach. I'll leave it to the WQA folks to decide if they want to weigh in, or if they feel that they can't say anything more until the other issues are looked at by an admin (they seem to be leaning toward the latter).

Finally, since I think it's safe to say that no one thinks that I am Collect (which is good, because I'm not), we can set aside the dispute between Collect and Ratel, and take my word for the issues I have seen with Ratel. The biggest concern, I think, is his presumed ownership of articles. He certainly behaved that way on IC as the talk page shows, and from what I've now read, he has behaved that way on the Drudge article(s) as well. In addition, even if he assumed he was slapping Collect when he insulted Scramblecase, he did the same thing to me, and he certainly didn't think that I was Collect. That adds WP:BITE to the list, at a minimum. Is questioning this kind of behavior "a waste of time"? I don't think so.

So I would still like to see a review of his behavior, either here or in some other forum. And I still would like assistance in dealing with him over at the IC article as that problem still exists. Dealing with an editor like Ratel makes WP a less fun and less productive place to be, and I can certainly say that it doesn't make newcomers feel welcome all. Most people, upon seeing his behavior, would simply give up and walk away (I was actually about to do so since it was clear he wasn't about to discuss the issues, he would revert anything I changed, and I didn't have the time to go through any formal DR), and that's not what I think WP wants to be like. --Transity 02:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

TRANSITY — Ok, if you want me to show what a bite is .. you talk about how people like me make WP a less fun place to be, but in fact the reverse is true: it's people like you who are messing up wikipedia. Your modus operandi, clearly visible in your contribution history, is to go from page to page trying to bad-mouth alternative medicine, to the point of synthesis and orginal research. You insist that all mentions of, for example, acupuncture, carry warnings about "pseudoscience"! This is idiocy. You ignore policy on these matters, even when I went to pains to point it out to you. You ignore consensus, even when other editors join me in telling you that you are wrong. You have a monomaniacal obsession with denigrating a form of medicine that you believe to be tripe, and you're determined to use wikipedia to further your obsessions and foist your unique and odious opinions on the world. It's editors like you who are making this site an unhappy place to be. 02:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratel (talk • contribs)

As I mentioned in my previous response, I am no longer addressing Ratel directly in his off-topic, irrelevant, and tedious accusations of sockpuppetry. I will be more than compliant in responding to anything he has to say on-topic, on any page.

To any and all admins: I will officially, and for the record, put forth that I am one hundred percent willing, should Collect - or any other user whom I am supposed to be "sockpuppeting" - agree to it, to provide a phone number and engage in a live, three-way conference call: the admin, myself, and Collect (or any other user). Let's reiterate that: one hundred percent willing. No, this is not a bluff. Make the request, get Collect, or any other user whom Ratel's paranoia convinces him I must be on any given day, to agree and offer his number, and set up the call. I've had quite enough of Ratel's accusations, and if that drastic a measure is the only way to have done with it once and for all, I'm perfectly willing to deal with it that way. Subsequent to that, I shall provide Ratel with a hat. This is getting ridiculous. Strike that: this is already quite ridiculous.

What I'm after is a WP where WP:OWNership fanatics such as Ratel - his history, particularly on the IC article and the Drudge Report article (the latter of which he indirectly sent me to in the first place, with his accusations), makes his behavior quite clear - cease their tiresome, abusive behavior once and for all, and discuss topics in a civil manner, without any notions of superiority, seniority, or ownership. The point of the site, as Ratel so often states, but rarely abides by, is to improve and maintain the repository of information, full stop.

Enough with the distractions of sockpuppetry. My technical expertise with WP is easily explained; unless one believes it to be ever so hard to look at the code in this text field and the resulting text and see the connections in the formatting instantly (I write code for a living). My ability to catch on to the terminology and policy citations on WP is easily explained; unless one believes that following the links provided by others, following links from there, and getting a firm grasp of why and when they are using those policy citations is difficult. (I also write contracts, business proposals, style guides, and numerous other documents in my profession - this material is quite simplistic, comparatively, which is a good thing, so try not to get offended by that remark.) Please get over this red herring; WP isn't rocket science. Adapting to the protocols of any new situation or environment isn't neurosurgery. And noting the atrocious behavior of Ratel isn't a Sherlock Holmesian feat of observation, even before I discovered that it is, in fact, chronic.

As I said, I'm happy to do whatever any admin would like in order to clear the red herring of sockpuppetry off the table. This WQA was initiated due to Ratel's rude, abusive, and dismissive behavior; I would think any other user would be hard-pressed to see his behavior in this very section and disagree with that assessment. My status completely aside, Ratel's outrageous behavior has been disruptive on more than one article, and in more than one Talk page, as is evident in his interactions with Collect (which he dredged up in the first place), and my subsequent - and directly motivated - searches for his contributions.

Feel free, anyone, at any time, to initiate a WQA or RfC, or further proceedings, regarding the suspicion of my being a sockpuppet. Such issues can be discussed there; it is a separate issue. I disagree with neon's assertion that it must be dealt with "first." No matter who or what I am, other users are free to peruse the material referenced, and decide for themselves whether Ratel's behavior is appropriate. I'm not the issue here. Yet again, Ratel feels no reservation about derailing yet another page with his paranoid and possessive ranting.

This WQA concerns Ratel's behavior. I am more than willing to be taken to task for any misbehavior I may have shown. I don't believe there to be any serious infractions, beyond, perhaps, an occasional facetious remark in response to Ratel - or, apparently, being technically skillful enough (aren't most of the users here?) to use WP's interface with no direct experience (I have, of course, been reading the site for years - why else would I be here?). I am also more than willing to be taken to task for the possibility of being a sockpuppet (which I am not). Again, I encourage any user or admin to initiate any proceedings necessary regarding my own status. Meanwhile, however, this WQA should remain focused on Ratel's behavior throughout his contributions on WP, and on the IC/PBS article in particular. The IC/PBS article itself, unfortunately lost in the shuffle, should be free of his obsessive, possessive, abusive comments - note that I do not say "free of Ratel," but rather, free of those comments - in order for the editors (including Ratel, if he is able to overcome is chronic behavioral problems) to come to some sort of consensus. If anyone disagrees, then please, if you will, explain to me the point of the WP policies that Ratel so readily cites. Scramblecase (talk) 04:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

(To Ratel) Once again I see you've chosen to avoid discussing substance in favor of tossing around insults. I don't think I've ever seen anything else from you. I won't defend my edits on other articles to you. I feel they are proper, and I don't care at all what you think of them. My record is available. I'll gladly take criticisms from others, but your opinion is, frankly, meaningless. You simply continue to display the same behavior that got you here in the first place. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that I'm not the only person making these observations. Instead of insulting others, you need to look in the mirror. And if you won't, then someone needs to do it for you. --Transity 04:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• i have filed an investigation Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scramblecase to clear things up with regards to suspicions of sockpuppetry. Do not be offended if your username is listed there. It is merely trying to establish if this editor is, or acting on behalf of another editor in this dispute. Please don't use thew investigation to carry on the dispute. --neon white talk 08:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have followed the matter at Interstitial cystitis where User:Transity seems to be straining at a gnat. I have previously encountered User:Ratel at Alain de Botton where I find him to be brusque and bold but not unpleasantly so. The clash then is between an editor who won't let an issue go and an editor who tries to get closure in a brisk, business-like way. Insofar as we are here to get articles written rather than fill up talk pages, the latter style seems preferable. But the matter seems to be essentially a content dispute rather than a matter of etiquette and so should be resolved accordingly. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm a little surprised, Colonel, that you could read the thread at IC and come to this conclusion. I obviously do not agree with you. As I said on the IC thread, yes the issue is minor in the grand scheme of the overall article, but to me, that doesn't mean we should fail to improve it just because Ratel says "no" (with no decent arguments to back himself up). Sorry you feel that way, but I think it's clear from all that has transpired on IC, here, and on other posts (now shared here) that Ratel's behavior is a problem that goes far beyod being "brisk." --Transity 11:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• No offense taken, neon. As I've noted, feel free to initiate any proceedings against me you (or anyone) might deem necessary. In the meantime, I would think that this discussion has not nearly finished, as I have yet to see very much in the way of a response to Ratel's chronic behaviorial problems on this site. What I have largely seen instead are brief discussions of who is right or wrong in the editing dispute between Ratel and Transity, references to Ratel's disputes with Collect, and accusations of sockpuppetry. With all of those being addressed elsewhere at this time, I'd like this WQA to stay on target, if everyone would be amenable to that. Colonel Warden, I find it a misinformed and/or disingenuous position that you see the matter as a content dispute, as Ratel rarely addresses the content itself in the IC discussion without hurling insults and rancor at his interlocutors (just as he has done here), and frequently eschews the content altogether in favor of the insults and rancor. Ratel, there is a perfectly appropriate sockpuppetry investigation on which to make accusations at me, now, so perhaps you could stay on target here (the target being your own outrageous behavior across the board), and in the IC Talk (which I see you've made an attempt to do at this point...not successful, but an attempt, which is not unnoticed). As a note, despite my strong disagreement with Ratel and Colonel Warden on the IC Talk consensus, I am reluctant to voice my opinion there, in that I may taint the issue with the current proceedings here and in the sockpuppetry investigation. Scramblecase (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigation concluded, please resume WQA...

Now then - neon, I appreciate your thorough examination of...me. And my thanks to Colonel Warden for his contribution on that examination - as I indicated, it was quite enlightening (and I'm actually not being facetious there - I learned quite a bit following Colonel Warden's link, and in my subsequent searches). As I said, I have no problem whatsoever with the sockpuppet investigation that was opened regarding my account. It seems that the following, from User:Nathan, should be noted, in his listed reasons for closing the investigation:

...no significant evidence of a link between the accounts listed has been presented, and by all appearances this case is being used as a weapon in a content dispute...

Strangely, this is precisely what I suggested regarding the accusations against me. As the investigation has been closed by an admin who, in case any question remains, found precisely zero evidence that I am a sockpuppet (which makes sense, as I am not), I would appreciate it if the keen interests of neon and Colonel Warden, as well as Bwilkins, and indeed, any others who might read this WQA, be returned to the subject of Ratel, who is, after all, the focus of this WQA. Ratel's abusive, dismissive behavior has yet to be even cursorily addressed (in no small part due to his wild allegations - part and parcel of that behavior itself - and the resulting digressions from this WQA to my own status).

Ratel, you have created the WP:SPA you so thoroughly despise. I would very much like for this to be over, in order that I may freely look into WP articles that fall under my expertise and interests, and contribute to the encyclopedia as a whole. (And yes, knowing me, I will likely join a few conversations I find where one party is exhibiting terribly inappropriate behavior toward another - I'm simply not a fan of that kind of behavior.) However, my single WP experience as a user (that is, an editor rather than strictly a reader) has now left quite a bad taste in my mouth, and until your behavior - not just toward me, but toward many other users - has been addressed directly, without any of your red herring accusations derailing the proceedings, I will quite readily (though wearily) keep this WQA active. I would never ask for the elusive apology from Ratel, as I've already encountered you, and therefore, sadly, I would make no presumptuous claim that such a mythological beast exists. But the fact remains: your behavior is inappropriate, and must be addressed; and preferably rectified on your end, of your own volition.

Enough with the attacks and distractions. I would simply ask that you own up to your mistakes, and strive to improve your interactions with others on this site as much as you claim to strive to improve the site itself. We're all (supposed to be) part of the same team, here, and it would make it easier on everyone if you would offer more cooperation and polite responses to the rest of the team - even those who disagree with you on any given content issue. After all, I do still have a delicious hat to offer you, if you can begin to understand that your behavior truly has been inappropriate, and my actions have only been a response to that behavior. (I promise it's a very tasty hat. That's a joke. Lighten up, Ratel, and remember how we human beings - I firmly believe you are one - interact with each other.) Scramblecase (talk) 15:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to edit wikipedia, there is nothing prohibiting this. I tend to agree with User:Colonel_Warden that this is primarily a content dispute but with the added trouble of difficult and often incivil communication between User:Ratel and User:Collect. If they cannot edit this article without being at each other's throats then stepping back from this article might be best for both but if they are to continue with these discussions and interact they need to assume good faith and discuss civily and leave off the acusations. --neon white talk 16:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Collect isn't editing the IC article and having problems with Ratel - I am. The IC content dispute is being sent to RfC (pending resolution of some template issues, I believe). But that doesn't really address Ratel's behavior. Is that something that this WQA can do, or should that issue be raised elsewhere? My initial read of the purpose of a WQA was that third parties could look in and, providing the knowledge that the conversation was being monitored, hopefully spur good behavior in order to assist in resolving the content dispute at hand. If that is the extent of what WQA is meant to do, then the request to look at Ratel's behavior should be taken elsewhere. If not, and if WQA is meant to launch a review of a user's behavior, then we are right where we belong. Forgot Collect for now - I have a problem with Ratel's behavior, and it has been determined (rather anticlimactically for me) that I am not Collect. Please let me know if this is the proper forum, or if the issue needs to be raised elsewhere. --Transity 16:52, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the sentiment, neon, but something is preventing my feeling comfortable contributing to WP - my immediate and as yet unassuaged impression, upon first creating an account, that other users labor under no requisite (or feel none) to be civil and stay on topic. I'm not sure how I may have been unclear, but here's a clarification in case you've misunderstood the point of my continuing this WQA: on a site where chronic abusive and dismissive behavior such as Ratel's is allowed to continue unchecked and unanswered, I find it hard to find any comfort or interest whatsoever in contributing.

The problem remains unchecked and unanswered, because in your latest response, you have once again ignored it, and by your own words imply that you have accepted as fact an accusation which an admin has already put to rest as baseless. The conclusion of the investigation - and the correct one, I apparently need to add - is that I am not Collect. Explain, then, please: where exactly do you see the "trouble of difficult and often incivil communication between User:Ratel and User:Collect" adding to this content dispute? Collect is not involved. Collect was not even connected to this until Ratel brought him up. The content dispute was between Transity and Ratel. Upon my contribution to that content dispute, a behavioral dispute grew between Ratel and me.

By all means, discuss the content dispute - but on the IC Talk page itself, including the RfC that has been started regarding the dispute (at ]). As David Wilson correctly points out there, that page should remain focused on the specific merits and drawbacks of the content under discussion (the citations regarding acupuncture). For precisely the same reason, this WQA should remain focused on Ratel's behavior; not the original content dispute, nor any accusations against me, nor any irrelevant references to Collect. To reiterate: the WQA has yet to focus on the subject of the WQA. That seems more than strange; it seems suspicious, and I'm getting quite uncomfortable with far too many users' seeming lack of motivation to address Ratel's behavior directly.

I have just as much "reason" to suspect that neon white and Colonel Warden are sockpuppets of Ratel as he had to suspect that I was a sockpuppet of Collect - which is to say, none at all, beyond the random and arbitrary point that they refuse to address Ratel's behavior. Ratel's singular reason for suspecting me, of course, was the the fact that I disagreed with him - if I had agreed with him regarding the content, let's keep in mind how plausible it is that he would have made any accusations based solely on my newcomer or alleged WP:SPA status. Does this mean that any user on WP who disagrees with Ratel must undergo a sockpuppet investigation to prove they are not Collect? When do we get to the point where we acknowledge that Ratel's conflicts can be a result of Ratel's behavior, and not a vicious conspiracy against him? Note that I'm not defending Collect, here - I certainly disagree with at least some of his opinions and behavior in his conflicts with Ratel, though I could approach his opinions with the objective of consensus and his behavior with a civil tone aimed at accord. However, this WQA has yet to focus on Ratel's overall abusive behavior, and his specific abusive behavior in the IC discussion.

Again, in an effort to come to some form of conclusion on these proceedings, I'd suggest we keep this WQA focused on its focus: to wit, Ratel. Enough with Collect (who wasn't involved) and Transity (who, while his behavior was less than pristine, was certainly not anywhere near as out of line as Ratel except in specific responses to Ratel's abuse and dismissal) and me (I'm the one who, you may recall, is not a sockpuppet, finds Ratel's behavior quite distasteful, and would like to come to a peaceful resolution to the whole thing - though I'm quite willing to go up to the next level of procedure if it becomes necessary).

All this takes is users discussing Ratel's behavior. Not the content, not my status: Ratel's behavior, period. Better yet, Ratel should be discussing his own behavior, rather than attacking anyone else's. I note, with little surprise but much regret, that he has returned to the IC discussion, continues to ignore the points Transity has made (as does Colonel Warden, in part), and is conspicuously absent from both this discussion and the sockpuppet investigation. In certain real life legal proceedings, we could compel him to show up for a hearing of this nature. Obviously, that's not possible here. But it does make one wonder: why is Ratel refusing to actually participate in his own defense, or admit his guilt and make amends? Instead, he has merely made accusations. I agree with Nathan: by all appearances this case is being used as a weapon in a content dispute.

Ratel: try to be genuinely constructive and honest about this. Discuss this without abuse, and without dismissal. That is in the best interests of WP. Not your stubborn refusal to acknowledge your own behavior, and your continued behavior of running roughshod over other users, particularly on articles you seem to feel you WP:OWN. If you feel you will have "lost" by owning up to your behavior, please accept my absolute and honest opinion that you will not: being able to admit one's mistakes, move on, and take part in the spirit of cooperation that is the basis of WP, is without a doubt a clear victory. I'm not interested in "lording" anything over you. And I'd be happy to include a pomegranate iced tea with that hat, to demonstrate that this isn't about a vendetta: it's about straightening out this unhelpful behavior and moving on to more important things. The iced tea is fantastic, by the way. I'm just not sure how I'd ship it to you. Scramblecase (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

No substantive evidence presented here

Despite all the hot air from 2 editors here —both of whom have admitted to being SPAs, one of whom is involved in a content dispute with me (where I am right and he is wrong, as shall soon become obvious), and the other of whom I maintain (despite the predictably unsuccessful checkuser) is a sock of Collect (himself now the subject of an extensive RfC)— no real evidence as to my awfulness has been presented. On the other hand, I can point to the absurdity of accepting that the sock Scramblecase is a new editor (pah-leeeeze! I've seen many new editors arrive on the scene and not one has shown Scramblecase's knowledge of rules, formatting of responses, and aggressiveness), and having been Collect's interlocutor for a few weeks I can recognize the same style and diction a mile away. Regarding Transity, I can ask why we are entertaining any input at all from an editor whose sole purpose runs counter to the rules of wikipedia? Transity joined WP to vent about something he hates: Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM). Check out the SPA_style diffs: etc. All this is in direct, flagrant conflict with OR and SYN rules, as is his attempted edit to IC/PBS. What we need to be doing is blocking editors like this, for they are damaging the project. ► RATEL ◄ 01:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Just keep tossing around the insults, Ratel. It's what you do best. No evidence has been presented? How about no one has looked into it yet? How about you spun this thing by making up accusations of sockpuppetry to avoid a discussion of your behavior - something Nathan pointed out when he closed the sock investigation.

You are in repeated violation of WP:OWN on at least several articles, you routinely WP:BITE and WP:BULLY your way through discussions without ever addressing content, and you seem incapable of admitting any wrongdoing. You revert as a matter of course (and a matter of privilege), and frankly, it has to stop.

As a note, I have not admitted to being a WP:SPA - I have said that I think the classification is idiotic, and that people should be judged on the content of what they write, and not where they choose to write it. In fact, if you actually bothered to read the entry at WP:SPA, you'd see that it says exactly that. Instead, you seem to like tossing around the term without ever actually learning about it. For my part, my edits have all been proper, and I've always invited and engaged in substantive debate. That's a whole lot more than I can say about you.

Is someone going to look into Ratel's issues here, or does a different forum need to be used to do so? People like him hurt WP and I'm hoping someone cares about that. --Transity 02:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Ratel's list of my diffs above, I invite anyone to look them over. What I see there are a series of edits in which I primarily removed unsourced statements which, in some cases, had been tagged as needing sources for some time, or added appropriate caveats to unsourced claims (when possible, using sources myself). So please check the content of my edits, and don't just take Ratel's biased word for what I've been doing. I'd also invite anyone looking at my diffs to look at the corresponding talk pages, as all but the smallest changes will be discussed there. I welcome comments (on my talk page) about how I can improve on my editing. --Transity 13:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Comment - There are some legitimate issues here, but frankly the use of a sock or SPA account - and Ratel, etc... are quite right about this - undermines the legitimacy of this dicussion. The accusations of stalking are also serious and would need to be addressed in conjunction with the content dispute. As it is, this WQA is stuck and the parties should consider a more formal venue. Eusebeus (talk) 03:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate the comment, Eusebeus. I believe a more formal venue may be the answer. The problem is that every time Ratel has a problem with someone, and that person attempts to do something about it, he finds a way to divert the problem onto others (see him blame Collect, Scramblecase, and me on this thread above). To my way of thinking, it shouldn't matter at all if someone is a SPA or even a SOCK (hear me out on this) when it comes to judging Ratel's behavior. Scramblecase is a sock? Fine, how is Ratel's behavior? Scramblecase has been cleared of being a sock? Fine, how it Ratel's behavior? The issues about others are (in some cases) important, but not relevant. Ratel has proven very adept at using these issues to divert attention from his own WP:OWN and WP:BITE behaviors.

So Scramblecase is tainted, even though he's been cleared of being a sock, and even though all new users are, by definition, SPAs. And Collect is as well. Ratel would have the world believe that I am also tainted as an Eville SPA (YMMV). So who's left to do something about his behavior if everyone who he bullies is rendered tainted and unable to do anything? That is my frustration. I would rather have each of us judged on our behavior blind of what the others have done, but I don't know how to make that happen without Ratel's diversionary cries of "SPA" and "SOCK" souring the process as it did here. If you have any guidance, please share it with me as I am becoming quite disenfranchised with WP in general based on my experiences with one problematic editor. I would love to continue editing here, but I'm spending the bulk of my time battling ownership issues and insults, and that isn't much fun at all. --Transity 13:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

You're becoming "disenfranchised"? Don't you mean disenchanted? Still waiting for any proof that you have a case against me, apart from your obvious attempt to use this venue to further your content dispute with me and other editors at IC/PBS. ► RATEL ◄ 16:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

(Yes, just attack Transity's prose, rather than his points, Ratel. As a note, if we're correcting the writing rather than the content, I think your pluralization on "editors" is off, too. Oh, sorry - that addresses both writing and content. Now, more on point...)

It is, indeed, possible, Eusebeus, that this WQA is "stuck." Unfortunately, this seems to be largely due to Ratel's refusal to participate in it without bringing in numerous other (largely irrelevant) issues. I agree that the constant allegations undermine the legitimacy of the WQA; but it is those allegations, not the facts, that do so. One more time, for those unfortunately seated high up in the balcony and unable to obtain auditory aids to hear the actors on stage (in short: the cheap seats): I have been cleared with regard to the sockpuppet accusations. I am not Collect. Bringing Collect up - which was done by Ratel in the first place, perhaps with this very purpose in mind - is irrelevant. (Collect's participation in this proceeding is quite natural, assuming he is "stalking" Ratel and noted the WQA with his name in it. Note that I asked him to refrain from bringing his own experiences into this WQA for now, specifically because I agree that they undermine the proceedings.) Meanwhile, several points have been missed, here, some of which Transity has addressed.

1) I find it quite disturbing that the subject of a WQA can entitle a new section of the WQA "No substantive evidence presented here" and not be called on his presumptuousness. The purpose of the WQA should, supposedly, be to get some external perspective on the behavior of the subject of the WQA. That Ratel can offhandedly declare "nothing to see here, go about your business," seems to defy the point of having the WQA feature in the first place. However, this seems to be Ratel's modus operandi: to bluster and bully and "proclaim" his personal views as absolute fact, seemingly oblivious to the possibility that he could, in fact, ever be mistaken or incorrect, or that it may remain up to others to judge his behavior, if he is not willing to objectively do so himself.

2) Ratel claims: "no real evidence as to my awfulness has been presented." I would submit that his refusal to deal civilly with this WQA is evidence in and of itself, even were it not for his behavior in the discussion that motivated this WQA, and his persistent need to attack plaintiffs rather than defend his own actions.

3) Ratel's entire case against me - yet again brought up here, where it is off-topic - rests on his own paranoia and my proficiency with WP editing and policy protocols. Ratel, if this is your admission that you find WP's editing and policy protocols too complex to pick up easily, then I think that speaks more to your own aptitude and/or technical skill, rather than my honesty. Is that what you mean to imply? That's an ill-advised, though charmingly self-deprecating, strategy. I can say precisely the same regarding neon white's continued use of this factor as the basis of his sockpuppet investigation - that is, even if you guys find this stuff difficult, it really is remarkably easy for me. (Again, I think that says less about my "wondrous" abilities than it does about the claimant's lack thereof.) Further, the "identical" prose these users claim to see between Collect's writing and my own is not quite so identical to one who has been a professional writer and editor. I'd suggest, as merely one example, reading ] and then re-reading those "identical" passages. (Once again, no offense to Collect. This is about writing style choices, and some of my previous editors - you know, those professional, offline ones - might have preferred Collect's style to mine.) As to diction: really? Wow. Some folks really aren't so skilled at critical reading, I suppose.

4) Yes, Ratel, I have "admitted" to being a WP:SPA. More accurately, I stated, verbatim:

Ratel, you have created the WP:SPA you so thoroughly despise. I would very much like for this to be over...

However, my single WP experience as a user ... has now left quite a bad taste in my mouth...

In short: I'm not "interested" in being a SPA. You have derailed the only opportunity I have yet taken to make a contribution - note that my "single purpose," as I've stated it, is not related to the IC article, nor, unfortunately, any article, but rather to make sure that somebody, somewhere, anywhere on the site addresses your behavior directly without being distracted by your irrelevant accusations, abusive behavior, offhand dismissal, and all of the other charming traits that mark your interaction on WP thus far. Note that I, for one, have continually stated that this is not about punishment - simply acknowledgment and amends. However, once again: if you, and other users, refuse to acknowledge your misbehavior on this site, then I will have no choice left but to file an RfC and discuss these events with an admin. This is not a threat; this is a problem. I want more choices than that, man!

5) Further, with regard to the WP:SPA label in general: I, like Transity, find it preposterous. Once upon a time, Ratel, you were a WP:SPA with a focus on artists from the continent of Africa. Then, because no bully tried to push you around, you got to make other contributions to the site. The same can be said of every user on WP (substituting "artists from the continent of Africa" with their own first contributions, of course). This is, of course, directly related to the next point...

6) I did not start my account with the intent of attacking you, Ratel. You certainly perceived it that way, thanks to your generally belligerent attitude toward other users, or, more specifically, those who disagree with you (on seemingly any subject, encyclopedia content or not). I joined a discussion where I saw two users with a difference of opinion, unable to come to consensus, and unlikely - as you yourself pointed out - to find any other users happening upon the discussion to help out. Moreover, I saw one user exhibiting unreasonably venomous, abusive, and dismissive behavior toward the other. By coincidence, I agreed with the victim of the abuse rather than the perpetrator, with regard to the content. Having already seen your behavior, and your use of WP:SPA as a tool to dismiss another user's opinion, I made sure you understood that I would not accept that as a reasonable or valid response, should you hurl it at me.

You, of course, went ahead and did it anyway. And here we all are: in a WQA that only exists because you were incapable of focusing on the topic and avoiding personal attacks and baseless accusations (or, if capable, apparently unwilling).

7) You once again stand triumphantly (and mistakenly - which is a perfectly valid discussion to conduct, politely, on the IC Talk page, both from your side of things and Transity's) on WP:OR and WP:SYN policies, and accuse yet another user of being a WP:SPA. You have yet to address, for even a moment, the allegations against you. You are, in fact, a WP:BITE-ing WP:BULLY with WP:OWNership tendencies, who cannot seem to grasp the purpose of WP:BURO in order to see your way through to consensus, or even peaceful disagreement. The fact that I can so readily and easily link to all of these, Ratel, has just as much to do with your own frequent tossing about of policy as it has to do with my ability to simply do research before I type. You've made me the policy-wielding WP user I am today. You should be proud I've taken your lessons to heart! Of course, I haven't bothered to absorb your lessons in how to mistreat other users. I'm not a fan of those lessons.

8) Once upon a time, way back up near the beginning of this WQA, Bwilkins said:

...the first one who does attempt to resolve it (and sticks to it) will have my admiration.

How many times have I offered an olive branch, Ratel? Anyone? How many times have I attempted to lighten up these proceedings? Not because of Bwilkins's admonishment, but rather, because it is precisely what I am looking for - resolution, accord, and the opportunity to make my contributions without dealing with angry insults and dismissals from a user who, frankly, doesn't play well with others. I've asked you to simply respond, Ratel; politely, fairly, without abuse or dismissal. You have been unable or unwilling to do this. (True, my olive branch has frequently been in the form of a hat, but I discovered you had a taste for hats, and felt it only polite to cater to that preference.) Every moment of ire that I have exhibited - all of them quite minor, compared to yours, Ratel - has come as a direct response to your baseless accusations and insults, and your refusal to attempt to resolve this situation amicably. Meanwhile, I've made attempt after attempt to come to a point of understanding, clarifying my position, asking for clarification of yours (or, again, any acknowledgment of yours). I've even attempted to resume a polite discussion on the IC Talk page, clearly validating one of the points you made while still disagreeing with your conclusion; and, of course, was slapped with an irrelevant SPA tag by your apparent compatriot, Colonel Warden, despite David Wilson's pointed remark to leave off the irrelevant accusations in that discussion. What, does it pain you guys that you can't make an argument solid enough that you don't need to add a baseless, pointless attack to it? This is absurd.

9) Like Transity, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the WP community is not at all what it appeared from the outside, during my years of reading the site for my own edification, and to discover avenues of research in my writing and other projects. It seems - seems, mind you - to largely consist of possessive, obsessive users with anger issues, and lackadaisical, unhelpful users who willfully avoid calling the first kind on their behavior. Again, this is what I've gleaned from my WP user experience - not through my own actions, but through the observation of the actions of others. Perhaps, had I made my first contribution on another discussion or article, and dealt with users other than Ratel, I may have had a very different experience. As it is, I do not find WP to be a very welcoming community. Worse, it appalls me that, should any users exist who find this idea of an unwelcoming community to be problematic, not one of them has stepped forward to make me feel welcome. The best I've gotten is User:Nathan's statement that suggested, correctly, that the sockpuppetry investigation of my account was pointless, baseless, and being used only as a weapon.

Ratel, if you haven't noticed: I'm bulletproof. No, that's not a boast; I'm saying that the bullying and intimidation will not sway me, nor deter me. That's simply not how you're going to deal with someone like me, who obviously values justice, fairness, and diplomatic behavior far above "might makes right" (or, at the very least, claims to - even if I were lying or deluded, I'd have to keep up appearances on that score, right?). The only way to "slay this beast," Ratel, is to lay down your anger and your weapons...and discuss. Peaceably. Politely. Even if it's a strain. Because that's my kryptonite, man. Cooperative, fair behavior. The harder you jab, the further this will go - as far as it has to, in fact. An attempt to actually be civil and stay on topic will work wonders. Scramblecase (talk) 16:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

' The conclusion of the investigation ... is that I am not Collect I have been cleared with regard to the sockpuppet accusations.' - Scramblecase

The clerk who closed the case said nothing of the sort. He clearly stated that he closed the case because no significant evidence was presented. He added on his user talk page that the 'rationale for filing the case ... as I noted on the case page ... was insufficient to justify checkuser action.'

There was no investigation - the case was declined. As to whether Scramblecase is Collect, the clerk made no conclusion one way or the other. WP:AGF requires that we assume Scramblecase is not a Collect sock until/unless there is a finding to the contrary. Writegeist (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There most certainly was an investigation. And more. And snce you and your friends accused me in the past of being a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more, one might think that you would accept that I have no sockpuppets at all. At what point will you let such ppoor accusations go? Collect (talk) 18:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Similar experience

I had similar exchanges with Ratel over a discussion of notability at Talk:Jim Puplava over which he received a reminder about dealing with other editors. His edit summary says a lot about his opinion of other editors, but unless Ratel learns to respect the edits and efforts of other editors, he's going to find himself spending all his time defending his behavior (and reverting his talk page discussions) rather than the actual edits and content. Flowanda | Talk 19:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

(While I appreciate the potential validity of your point, Collect, it might be best if you excused yourself from this WQA for the moment. The rancor between you and Ratel and, apparently, other users is an unnecessary and unhelpful distraction from the WQA itself. Do what you will, but that's my opinion.)

Excellent point, Writegeist, and my apologies for not recognizing that detail of the system. One would suppose, of course, if I'd been through one of those investigations before (as have other users - like, for instance, Collect), I may, indeed, have not chosen to use it as the crux of what I clearly felt was a valid argument. (Keep in mind, please, that it was but one argument of many. And the conclusion still holds, only based on Writegeist's point, rather than mine.)

So the conclusion of the investigation, more accurately, is that there is no longer any need, per WP:AGF, to consider the allegation with regard to this WQA or Ratel's behavior. I'd be happy to reinstate the investigation myself (or start a new one) in order to instigate a Checkuser procedure, and my offer of a live, offline, three-way conference call between an admin, me, and anyone who I am alleged to be a sockpuppet of still stands. I'm not sure how I can make that point any more clear or accessible.

Now, would anybody like to contribute anything on topic? With the (again, apparently sorely necessary) reminder that the topic is Ratel's behavior, both in the initial IC discussion and in this WQA? Or will we continue to get drive-by quoting of policy, procedure, and fine print, and a total abdication of the responsibility of this community to commune? No offense, Writegeist, but this is becoming quite frustrating. Scramblecase (talk) 19:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

My apologies - apparently, just before I hit "Save page," Eusebeus decided to mark this WQA as "Stuck." (I'm not sure why that results in my comment still being posted, albeit in another section.) I believe this is premature, as it's hard to be "stuck" when the subject of the WQA has yet to respond to a single allegation against him. I'd call that "stalled," "diverted," or "blown up," depending on what Ratel's motivating factor is. I just don't see a clever icon for any of those.

As Flowanda has indicated, Ratel's behavior is not isolated to his interactions with Collect, with Transity, or with me. Now that somebody has deigned to actually make an on-topic remark (thank you Flowanda - not for your opinion coinciding with mine, but for commenting on the topic itself), would anybody else care to weigh in? I'd hate to give undue weight to the "Ratel needs to learn to respect the edits and efforts of other editors" opinion. Scramblecase (talk) 19:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

(out) sockpuupet accusation by Ratel - no basis found. 23 Feb 2009. another unfounded sockpuppet investigation 9 Dec 2008. 3RR by Ratel, his solutiong for everything is "block indef." So little time, so many formal complaints against others. Collect (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• It seems that very few people are willing to make any comments on Ratel's behavior, which is disappointing and leaves me with a very unfortunate impression of the WP community's interest in civil discourse, or its interest in preventing users from disrupting that civility. It also seems that whosoever may make any statement that puts Ratel in a negative light is not only attacked by Ratel, but seems to be "suspect" by a number of other users, as if Ratel's word carries more weight than any other's - which, of course, runs contrary to the spirit of WP itself. Given the apparently ineffective nature of WP's self-policing procedures thus far, as I mentioned, I'll be looking into pursuing this issue to the next level, in an RfC regarding Ratel's behavior. And while it apparently comes as a shock to some users, I'll be doing my research first. I'd like to reiterate the reference to numerous opportunities I offered Ratel to either defend or amend his actions; all of which were ignored in favor of launching baseless attacks. If any other users are interested in keeping this site civil and free of disruptive and unfair practices such as those Ratel perpetuates, feel free to contact me on my Talk page, as I've read that I will need other users to cooperate in the initiation of the RfC. This is not my formal notice of RfC to either Ratel or the community at large; it is merely an endnote to this ultimately fruitless WQA, in order to explain my conclusions, and is therefore relevant to this conversation. Scramblecase (talk) 04:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikihounding and Uncivil behavior from DreamGuy

User:DreamGuy has been wikihounding my edits by taking my deprods to AfD. Now I understand and accept that that nominating an article for AfD is the right of any editor, but he is doing so only to article that I have deproded, and to articles that he had previously no activity in here, here, here, and here. This editor has also made uncivil comments against me that demonstrate that he is assuming bad faith against me (see here where he falsely states that I have "a long history of aggressively reverting redirects and other actions" to justify the fact that he has taken my deprod to AfD. Wordssuch (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Wordssuch, let me start by saying that accusations of Wikihounding are very serious, so they should not be used casually. As such, I'm going to start off by WP:AGF and assume that DreamGuy is monitoring all articles that get PROD'd. He does, indeed, take a number of articles to AfD: From DreamGuy's contribs:

• 16:35, 19 April 2009 (hist) (diff) Churnalism ‎ (Nominated for deletion; see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Churnalism. (TW)
• 16:18, 19 April 2009 (hist) (diff) Rudolf, Count of Rhaetia ‎ (Nominated for deletion; see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rudolf, Count of Rhaetia. (TW))

I could list more, but I wanted to show that you were not involved with one of those two, and there are a whole bunch of others as well.

On the diff of "incivility"...I can find no violation of WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL there, could you please expand.

Finally, when you have any issue with another editor, you must try and resolve it directly with them first on their talkpage. Whenever you file a WQA complaint, you must also advise them so that they have a chance to respond. I will be notifying DreamGuy of this on your behalf. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Fact correction - I did deprod Rudolf, Count of Rhaetia, which was then AfD by DreamGuy. The "Churnalism" article is the only other article that DreamGuy brought to AfD. There are not "a whole bunch of others".

To expand on WP:Uncivil, DreamGuy publicly made false claims against me (as stated in my intro), and makes an assumption of bad faith against me in attempting to justify why he brought Rudolf, Count of Rhaetia to AfD, rather than just redirect. Wordssuch (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, Wordssuch, you must try to resolve your issues with the editor directly prior to pursuing the next steps in dispute resolution. Same goes with notifying the subject of a WQA complaint; if you're reluctant to notify them yourselves, you're expected to at least state so in the complaint here so that someone else can notify on your behalf. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I did notify him on his talk page at 05:46, 20 April 2009 (see last entry on . Curiously, this edit shows on his talk page, but does not show up the edit history. Is it possible that DreamGuy can edit the edit history? Wordssuch (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That would be because you left a message on his USER page, and not his TALK page. Someone else politely moved the entry from the userpage. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

This is kind of a ridiculous accusation coming from someone who was repeatedly warned about harassing me. In fact the the account seems to have been largely created to do just that, based upon his limited edits and how the early ones all targeted articles I created for Speedy deletion for no good reason, all of which were denied, and the ones that went to AFD were denied also. This user was also one of several accounts discussed on WP:ANI being either sockpuppet accounts or otherwise acting very bizarrely. His current talk page has multiple incidents of other editors concerned about his behavior deprodding articles for no good reason and hi user page is tagged for sockpuppet investigations by another editor (though, with his history of blanking the talk page, those may disappear soon too). For him to be complaining about anyone else is pretty rich. At any rate, with his history of bad edits, taking things to AFD to get more input would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, unless he's afraid of what others might decide.DreamGuy (talk) 13:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Fact correction - Only two of my early edits tagged articles for speedy delete (not "all" as stated by DreamGuy above), and both were tagged in good faith for what I thought to be good reasons. Fisrt, Metod Trobec, was a one sentence, unreferenced article ; and Laura Bell, a one paragraph, one sourced article about a subject notable for one-event . Wordssuch (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Some were speedy, some were prods, some were AFDs... you varied your harassment, but it was clear you were targeting articles I created, as others pointed out to you, and which you removed from your talk page. DreamGuy (talk) 14:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The above comments from DreamGuy sums up my complaint against him for uncivil behavior (assumption of bad faith), and give his motives for wikihounding my edits now. His accusations against my account were discussed and found to be baseless . I have intentionally stayed clear of DreamGuy, and I have had nothing to do with any of DreamGuy's edits for well over a month. Yet he is wikistalking me, and here he is bringing up the old baseless allegation to justify his actions of today. DreamGuy should not be blaming others to justify his own actions. Wordssuch (talk) 13:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

If the above comments from DreamGuy sum up your complaint about him for uncivil behavior, then I must say that there does not seem to be much basis to the complaint. Chillum 13:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

And the sockpuppet accusation was not found to be "baseless," as he claims above, it was found to be moot as the Wordssuch account was no longer being used at the time. It obviously is being used again. And note that I was not the one who filed that report. DreamGuy (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Tactless statements by User talk:70.137.153.83

This IP address is involved in a dispute regarding the article Migraine Associated Vertigo. I am specifically concerned about these statements in which my "level of understanding" and "attention span" are stated (by the IP) to be less than on par. As such I am looking for some outside help to mediate this and avoid further personal attacks. Thank you. Basket of Puppies 06:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

He has been provided a 3rd level warning, which is not his first warning in the last couple of days. As an IP account, there's little than can be done because his IP is likely changeable. That said, he admits to being a longstanding editor - as such, it's possible that he is evading detection/possibly even evading a block by not logging in. As such, you might be better served in filing an WP:SSP investigation, clearly showing the diff where he admits to being a longterm editor, and clearly showing that he is using not being logged in in order to insult/disrupt. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The discussion seems to have continued on my talkpage instead of here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Re BWilkins: Fyi, I have not received related warnings in the past few days. What are you talking? My edits have been constructive. However I have allowed myself to repeatedly insist that the article receives broader sourcing, not to a commercial website, but preferably to peer reviewed neutral articles to be found by pubmed. The Concepts of WP:MEDMOS guidelines to reliable sourcing seem to be really hard to convey. So I allowed myself to remark that the guidelines are junior college reading level, and that the editor may have difficulties with that also from the attention span. That was not nice. But please take the time to read the whole preceding unnerving dialogue, then you may have some understanding. You really have to see it in perspective, then you understand. My edits are constructive, see further up on the talk page the thanks for my help and support for a new editor. My concerns have meanwhile been run through dispute resolution, and have been confirmed. I want these warnings removed from my page. 70.137.153.83 (talk) 14:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior by user:DePiep

user:DePiep did not like a message I left on his talk page and filed a complaint on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Mashkin threat on my Talkpage. He did not like the fact that the administrators did not find any merit in his complaint and he took wrote the following on my talk page where the uncivil part is the edit summary "eat it yourself".

I am not adding a comment on his/her talk page, since as you can see the previous civil comment I left was answered so aggressively. Mashkin (talk) 11:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I have advised the user, but as noted in a thread just above, you are required to advise the other user. I have also left additional discussion on DePiep's talkpage. I'm not sure that "eat it yourself" is uncivil - unless you told them to eat something inappropriate first? What is uncivil is the actions related to non-communication and abuse of your talkpage. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Persistent comments re editors rather than content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:Tremello22 has been asked by multiple editors to "comment on content, not the contributor" (to quote WP:NPA). However, (s)he continues to make statements about other editors as part of discussions on article talk pages. These include vague insinuations of bias, and outright accusations of hypocrisy and bad faith. At the time of writing, the most recent example (the first of those listed below) was issued less than an hour after Tremello22 was reminded (by myself) to comment on content rather than contributors, and was in fact a response to that reminder.

• "So forgive me if I don't believe you when you say you aren't a circumcision advocate because your actions speak otherwise."
• "I can only assume that you, as someone who is a circumcision advocate..."
• "I realise you and Jake both share a pro-circumcision point of view..."
• "Instead of being helpful, Jake is being deliberately difficult trying to stop this information being put in."
• "You are being totally hypocritical."" (when another editor raised this point on his/her talk page, Tremello22 responded, "If I think he is being hypocritical, I will say so.")

Jakew (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to see any violation of WP:CIVIL here ...? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Indirect vios; repeatedly referring to him as "circumcision advocate", "pro-cicumcision pov", etc. Those would warrant the subject being advised/warned. I also sense some assuming of bad faith. That said, I have not yet looked into the context of this which might justify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)slightly modified

Yes. Incidentally, I wouldn't characterise these as examples of major incivility. In fact, they are relatively minor. I'm raising an alert because they are fairly regular (the above examples are just a selection from the past two months), and because Tremello22 persists in spite of being asked to stop. Jakew (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

• Content is not divorced form the contributor; an apologist for any position makes their perspective relevant. I don't see any WQA violation here, and I remind all editors that making unsubstantiated incivility accusations can itself be construed as uncivil. I'll amend my comment as necessary should further diffs show a breach of WP:NPA. Eusebeus (talk) 15:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I fear you're incorrectly assuming that the labels are accurate. Suffice it to say that they are not. This thread is about Tremello22's behaviour, not my viewpoints, but for what it is worth my actual viewpoint on circumcision is explained on my user page. I think this illustrates one of the reasons why labelling other editors is damaging: third parties may assume that the labels were accurate. I will notify Coppertwig, who was also labelled by Tremello22 in one of the above diffs, in case (s)he wants to add anything. Jakew (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

In all my time at WQA, I've generally discouraged the use of labels to this effect because it can indeed have a damaging effect on the sense of mutual respect and camraderie that is expected at Misplaced Pages. Tremello22 has referred to Jakew as a "circumcision advocate"; Jakew's user page suggests a view that is neither pro or anti, and Jakew has presumably made statements to that effect. So now the burden should shift to Tremello22 to provide evidence as to why he felt it justified to refer to another user as a circumcision advocate; what "actions" did he feel "spoke otherwise"? If he could not provide any reasonable evidence, then strong assumptions of bad faith are a problem that come in line with civility issues. If he could provide such evidence, then this would be dismissed per Eusebeus. I consider that only the first 3 4 diffs count; I presume the rest are tied in with content and can be ignored. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)slightly modified

Regarding the last two diffs, Ncmvocalist, I don't mind if they are disregarded, but I just want to briefly explain why I included them. It's possible that the "hypocritical" remark had something to do with content, but if so I must admit that I'm mystified as to what (I don't think it's obvious from the context). I would generally avoid accusing another editor of hypocrisy, for reasons of civility; I might instead express concern about the subject (eg., "I'm concerned that we apply consistent reasoning between this situation and situation X, as I think they're similar due to reason Y"). Regarding "being deliberately difficult", I regard this as an outright accusation of bad faith (and, apparently, an assertion of the ability to read other editors' minds). There are times, I must admit, when I suspect that another editor is being "difficult" on purpose, but I don't say anything, partly because I can't prove my suspicion, partly because I consider it more civil to at least pretend to assume good faith, and partly because saying something would only aggravate the situation. Jakew (talk) 08:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have reviewed the talk page (quite interesting, who knew?) and what I see is a spirited content dispute and not a breach of civility. While it is correct that editors need to comment on the content, not the contributor, in the face of persistent reverts it is reasonable to adduce suggestions of a POV; those can be contested. That is fine in order to resolve differences and find common ground. In this instance, the article editors seem to be working through their issues in a detailed and civil way. It is very important for editors to recall that making an accusation of incivility is serious. WQA is not here to redress content disputes by other means which is what this seems to be. I have marked this accordingly as nwqa and archived the discussion. Eusebeus (talk) 13:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I've unarchived this (temporarily). It appears I've been contacted on my talk page regarding this closure, and was asked to review it, though I'd already begun reviewing earlier. I'm not convinced that our attempt (if any) was sufficient in making this better for the involved parties. I want to fix some of my own comments and add a couple more, and I don't see any harm in holding off a close for a few more days to enable this. I also want to leave a greater opportunity for the involved editors to provide input per the request at my talk page. Will reconsider archiving after 72 hours. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
• Sorry: how is it not uncivil to continue to call someone a "circumcision advocate" after they've said they aren't and don't want to be called that? Tremello's remarks are repetitive and are commenting on the editor's motivation rather about behaviour. They're the type of comment likely to be annoying to the person being commented on. What may seem like relatively mild comments can get very annoying with repetition and in combination with content disputes and occasional editwarring. They violate the proposed remedies C1, C4, C5, C6 and C7 that a number of editors of the Circumcision page had agreed to here; note that Blackworm also endorsed the same proposed remedies further down the page. I encourage all editors not to apply labels to other editors, and not to claim they have certain motivations they themselves deny having. If there are problems with an editor's behaviour, please bring it up on the editor's user talk page and other appropriate dispute resolution fora (such as here!) rather than repeating it over and over again on an article talk page. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• You have a very idiosyncratic view of what constitutes incivility, and one that I hope is not generally shared in this project. Stating a belief that another editor is a "circumcision advocate" is simply that, a statement of belief, not something that could be considered insulting. It would on the other hand quite probably be considered uncivil if that were phrased as a "fucking circumcision advocate". See the difference? --Malleus Fatuorum 00:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• I disagree. These remarks are a) about an editor rather than content, b) unnecessary, c) likely to be unwelcome, and d) known to be likely unwelcome. Consider this: if an editor said that he was a man on his talk page, and another editor accidentally described him as a woman, there's no inherent civility problem. But if the first editor corrected the second editor and asked him/her not to do that, it would be incivil for the second editor to repeatedly describe him as a woman. Repeatedly making personal remarks about someone that are known to be unwelcome is the essence of incivilty, and once it is known that they are unwelcome and inaccurate they become nothing more than name-calling. Decorating the remarks with expletives is best avoided, but in relative terms it doesn't make all that much difference. Jakew (talk) 07:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
• Being wrong and/or refusing to believe the statement of another editor is not uncivil. It is simply being wrong and/or refusing to believe another editor. It's high time these kinds of absurd interpretations of civility are reined in. If someone has advocated circumcision, or has been considered to have done so, then it is not uncivil to refer to that person as a "circumcision advocate", it is a summary of the facts. Personal remark =/= incivility. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This of course depends on use: "your edits to this article don't count because you're a circumcision advocate" would be an attempt to bully someone from editing. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

The incivility in your example does not centre on the deployment of the phrase "circumcision advocate", but on the statement "your edits don't count". It is the latter which is uncivil, not the former, hence my conviction that this thread is yet another vexatious complaint encouraged by those with a far too wide-ranging definition of "incivility". --Malleus Fatuorum 16:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Based on the diffs provided above, there's no bullying going on. Malleus Fatuorum is absolutely right. If there's no objection, I'll restore my archive of this discussion as not a civility issue. Eusebeus (talk) 12:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm sensing a legitimate disagreement here on whether this is the right sort of decorum to be using or not. I don't believe this is a vexatious complaint; it's made in good faith, and seems to be in line with the sort of thing you'd expect ArbCom to encourage. I would suggest that the user who filed this complaint file a request for clarification at WP:RFARB, given that ArbCom usually will end up looking at these sorts of gray areas of vios or non-vios, depending on how you look at it. Filing a clarification would involve citing any case that cites the principle "Decorum" or "Conduct of Misplaced Pages editors" or the like. I would not suggest seeking sanctions, or a case, but just a genuine request for clarification on how these particular examples would be treated by others, and they would've been considered by ArbCom. I intend on closing this particular WQA within the next 24 hours (or earlier) when I've finished revising my previous comments. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior by User:DreamGuy (again)

DreamGuy is continuing to follow my edits, and has now called me a liar - which is a clear and blockable violation of WP:Civil. I have been been trying to avoid User:DreamGuy, but in this instance he has followed me into an AfD (the only one he took part in that day) to argue for the deletion of an article that I created. I challenge his misleading deletion argument logic, and disclose to the closing admin that DreamGuy has been wiki-stalking me. In response DreamGuy calls me a liar and falsely states that I have been blocked for harassing him, even though I have not harrased him and I have never been blocked. DreamGuy calls me a liar here. Esasus (talk) 17:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

A quick check of your block log shows that you were blocked for 24 hours on April 9, 2009, by User:KillerChihuahua, for "Personal attacks or harassment". While the block log does not specify whether this was in respect to DG, at a minimum it is not correct that you have never been blocked. - TexasAndroid (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

This block was indeed, for harassing me... for continuing to post to my talk page insisting that I was a liar when what I said was accurate. See User talk:DreamGuy#An editor attempting to stack votes for the incident in question. The posts most directly related to his block were removed by an overseeing admin. DreamGuy (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I was just about to correct my error when you posted here. Yes I was blocked for 24 hours, and it did involve DreamGuy. I was defending myself too aggressively when he called me a liar on his talk page here. As a result I have vowed to stay clear of DreamGuy because he baits me. Yet here he is again, following me into an AfD where he is the only editor who votes for delete, and then calls me a liar when he is challenged. Esasus (talk) 18:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Tricky. If you want to complain about being called a liar, try to be make your posts more faithful to the truth - then you won't have to correct yourself later. Also, if you want to complain about incivility, don't do so in such a way that it draws attention to your own accusation of wikistalking - which, since it wasn't backed up by diffs, looks a lot like a personal attack on your part. I don't know what to advise here. Maybe you should quit while you're ahead, and withdraw this complaint. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I acknowledge SheffieldSteel's very valid critique of my complaint. DreamGuy's negative record is long and exstensive. DreamGuy baits me and others. On April 9th I foolishly fell into the trap of responding to one of his baits, and I was blocked for it. Since then I have stayed away from him, but he has not stayed away from me. I hope my complaint will be judged on the recent uncivil behavior of DreamGuy, and not on other unrelevant factors. His confrontational style of editing and commenting results in unpleasant editing experiences for myself and other editors. Esasus (talk) 19:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a question, are Wordssuch and Esasus the same user? Soxwon (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

No. they are different users. Esasus (talk) 18:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Both users were part of the ANI report mentioned in the Wordssuch section above. DreamGuy (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

• I will heed the good advise of other editors and I withdraw this complaint. In addition, I vow to stay away from DreamGuy as he is poison to my soul. Any other well intentioned advice on how I might best deal with User:DreamGuy when he follows or baits me is welcomed. Esasus (talk) 19:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The way to deal with bait is quite simple, although not always easy: don't take it. Dlabtot (talk) 20:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Remember, after repeatedly chumming to get its attention, the shark from Jaws ate the boat. The ocean always wins against the one dropping bait. - Arcayne () 21:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Peer-LAN

• Peer-LAN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Has been engaging in blatant incivility on top of what appears to canvassing to save an article FreeOrion (also see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/FreeOrion (3rd nomination):

"destroying all my work for no reason", this is absurd!, "leave this page alone", "I didn't expected the Spanish Inquisition!" "What's with all the Kubuki?", Uncivil response to Quantpole, Another uncivil response to Thumperward

On-wiki canvassing:

, , , , , , , ,

Can someone please help this user out before any further preventative action has to be taken? MuZemike 13:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I have tried to assist in the same vein as you have ... we'll see if a totally-uninvolved comment helps or not. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Unexplained reverts; perhaps some hounding and advertising

I edited the article on Steinway & Sons lately to remove what seemed like a great deal of advertising, but I've encountered a few problems with User:Fanoftheworld. As far as I can tell he added a great deal of the possibly NPOV material, and changes have been met with unexplained reverts (see for instance here, which was a revert done manually; here, where putting a mission statement back in was used to undo a series of further edits, most of which were fairly trivial; 1, 2, 3, 4). I've posted on the talk page to explain my changes, most haven't received answers. Posts on the user's talk page received no response. The user also began to post on other piano manufacturer pages (especially ones I'd contributed to), mostly to add scores of refimprove, fact, etc., tags, with no attempt at finding any of the information; and in some cases adding nosources tags to sourced sections. See 1, 2, 3, etc. Not sure how to proceed. Alexrexpvt (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest requesting the involvement of impartial editors to discuss the edits and the article. The editor is using the talk page to discuss edits so continue there. If a consensus is achieved and the editor reverts against the consensus then it probably needs admin attention. --neon white talk 20:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try that. Thank you. Alexrexpvt (talk) 07:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

TruthIIPower

Could someone with far more patience than I have a polite word with TruthIIPower over things like this?--Tznkai (talk) 04:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I desperately need someone to tell me why I should be nicer to POV-pushers who edit war. Please. TruthIIPower (talk) 04:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

You should probably avoid such comments and accusations. Accusations of improper behaviour without evidence is considered a personal attack. Stick to the discussion other than that small point i see no real issue here. --neon white talk 09:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think its a big deal per say, I just think TruthIIPower never got the crash course in wikipedia discourse... or perhaps he go the wrong one.--Tznkai (talk) 15:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, it is a she that we are dealing with. - Schrandit (talk) 17:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution