Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) at 16:53, 23 November 2005 (repasting all the stuff I had copied out :)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I copied everything to a file on my local machine to edit.

You can leave new notes here in the meantime no problem. :-) --Jimbo Wales 20:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

(Old stuff cleared out.)

Wikicities.com | My Website

Did you come here looking for something fun to do? Ok, now would be a good time to go speedy delete some images from "Images with unknown source" and "Images with unknown copyright status". According to the new speedy deletion criterion (I just changed it), these can be deleted on sight when they have been on the site for at least 7 days.

A "Request for Release of Information"

Jimbo, I would like to direct your attention to a legal matter over at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Thank_You_.26_Request_for_Release_of_Information. Thanks, Func( t, c, @, ) 04:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Have you seen this ?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Image:Aimee2.jpg&action=history

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Aimee2.jpg

Greetings. Very curious. MutterErde 10:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Very amusing, MutterErde is complaining about me tagging a commercial image which Jimbo personally owns the copyright in as Permission. I dont think he realises. I think he thinks I have a vendetta against his collection of nude pictures, which I dont at all, just would rather they were free pictures not ones with dubious fair use claims. Justinc 16:10, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Laugh if you want. But I don´t believe that people like you will send on this project. Deletion is cheap. I 've read , that you have asked yoúr buddies AFTER your vandalism tour. That was the point I had to laugh. But it was more a bitter laugh MutterErde 17:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Some examples from Justinc´s vandalism tour: "Images not used within guidelines of Misplaced Pages:Fair use "

, Image:ElisaBridges1999.jpg ,Image:ElizabethHilden-0695.jpg ( Can`t believe it !) , Image:BrandiBrandtBOL1988.jpg ,

Image:Anabeatrizbarros.jpg , Image:BeatrizMarieClaire.jpg , Image:Becky Delos Santos 1997.jpg , Image:Dvd 119546d1.jpg , Image:BuffyTyler01-22.jpg and and and ...... MutterErde 18:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Apologies Jimbo for this person who decided that spamming this onto your talk page was a sensible place. Would just like to point out that I havent deleted any of these images, just some links to them that didnt have any fair use justification, as they are all copyright images.Justinc 23:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Anyone here who stopps this vandal?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Justinc

MutterErde 11:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• UPDATES:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Justinc#Again:_Fair_Use

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Jtkiefer#MutterErde.27s_site

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek

Hi, this arbcom case was filed against User:Davenbelle and User:Stereotek by User:Tony Sideaway

I strongly believe there is a strong disconnect between the evidence presented (/Evidence /Coolcat) and arbitrators desicions (/Proposed decision).

In a nutshell I claim to have been subject to behavior explained on Misplaced Pages:Harassment as wiki-stalking. I have 6 admins (at least) backing me up for this. Regardless of this it has been proposed that I be prohibited from editing wikipedia for a year.

Whilst I appreciate that you have an immense workload, and that you prefer not to get involved in arbitration cases, I would be most grateful if you would do me the kindness of looking over the case in its present state and, if you wish to do so, intervene to point out these additional matters which have not been taken into account. The reason that I am appealing to you is that I am not satisfied that all evidentiary matters have been taken into account by the arbitrators, and I would appreciate it if you would provide your opinion on the matter to the Arbitration Committee.

Thanks --Cool Cat 01:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo, I am, of course, more than willing to discuss this matter if you like. I have confidence that the arbitration process will reach an appropriate conclusion. — Davenbelle 03:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

• P.S. Great project! (have a cookie) — Davenbelle 03:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Initial thoughts: I am not familiar with your case, but here and here, it appears that you are intelligent and dedicated to fixing the "references" section, using the right HTML code. However, here, you use incorrect English grammar: "The opinions towards abortion is mixed." However, here and here you exhibit GOOD English grammar -and some inappropriate language. I do not know what to make of it?? Kate's Tool here says that First edit 2005-02-04 08:07:12 and Total edits 11663 and Distinct pages edited 2537 and Edits/page (avg) 4.60 ...very impressive! Also, I know Tony Sidaway somewhat, and I think he is level-headed and mature. I would trust whatever he says. Also, here is a random diff, which leads me to believe that you really do want to contribute to the Wiki-Encyclopaedia in a positive way. Well, that's what I can see on the surface.--GordonWatts 03:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Miscelaneous thoughts:

cool cat reverts vandalism = good--GordonWatts 03:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Ibid. Good for cool cat--GordonWatts 03:43, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Adding links is good.--GordonWatts 03:46, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Ibid. = good--GordonWatts 03:47, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

WE looked at edits - now, let's look at "talk" & social skills: Cool cat admitted he made a mistake --good. --GordonWatts 03:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

More talk page diffs: Looks level-headed and mature--GordonWatts 03:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Initial Conclusions: Cool Cat looks a little bit excitable, and human, but I don't fully trust the ArbCom's Fascist restrictions placed on him. I have no knowledge of any ArbCom members except Neutrality, who is intelligent and hardworking -but also a little bit (in my opinion) selfish, thus, when I look at numerous talk and project page edits of Cool Cat and add that with what little I know about ArbCom (not really enough, sorry), I think that they are somewhat justified in doing what they did, but I would be willing to be my reputation that a thorough inquiry would find at least some overstep or abuse of power. I did not "capriciously" or "arbitrarily" come to this decision, and I have no conflict of interest; Neither ArbCom nor Neutrality has done anything against me at all. If I am shown to be wrong later, I will admit an error in analysis -and be quite surprised. Since the diffs right above are all "positive," please see my paragraph immediately above it for a few "negative" diffs about the cool cat -to be fair to ArbCom, that is.--GordonWatts 03:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

This is particularily disturbung; look at the restrictions they laid upon cool cat. Unreasonable. If he is that bad, ban him from editing for a year -period.--GordonWatts 04:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Davenbelle also makes good edits.--GordonWatts 04:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

He also is not afraid to get reviewed, hinting that he has nothing to hide.--GordonWatts 04:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Davenbelle also has social skills to debate without yelling. Good so far.--GordonWatts 04:10, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

However, Dave also made a very unusual deletion here??--GordonWatts 04:12, 24 September 2005 (UTC) Mistake -that was his own page: He has a right to do so.

He is polite, even when disagreeing here also. I see nothing odd here about Dave.--GordonWatts 04:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

But here and here Dave labels things vandalism, even when they are clearly edits of differeing interpretations. That is quite odd!--GordonWatts 04:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC) CORRECTION: Dave reverts things that are merely a difference of opinion; Sorry about that -I misread. However, did you have consensus or policy or some other good reason for reverting? Still looks odd, lol.--GordonWatts 21:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Dave looks like he is doing a good job here in helping shape the article. OK, folks, you will have to sort this out yourself, here, as "UNcle Gordon" doesn't get paid enough to settle disputes between Martians and Venusians, and Cats and Dogs, lol -even Kool Kats, OK?--GordonWatts 04:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Any thoughs from our lovely Stewardess?(no puns impied)...this is a serious matter though.Voice of All 15:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

:I think Inherently funny word is (usually) a model article for this sort of thing. Once upon a time the page had degenerated into a random assortment of anything that anyone felt was funny, and then some helpful and brave person came along and said "Look here, everything has to have a reference, period, and that's that." This was so obviously sensible that the page was immediately much improved and now (usually) is a wonderful article.

I'd say the exact same standard should apply here. Some terms are so commonly known that people may not feel that they need a reference, but then again, these are so common that finding references is trivial. Maybe you could set an arbitrary rule that any term with at least 100,000 hits in google doesn't actually need a cite, but anything less than that has to be backed up.

I hope this is a helpful idea.--Jimbo Wales 06:49, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Am I the only one who is uncomfortable with User:Voice of All(MTG)'s activism in this matter? Surely the process of closing an AFD should be simply one of weighing up the valid votes as fairly as possible? Regardless of the merit of the arguments, and of the page in question (and frankly, I would have voted "delete" on this page myself), comments like " get all this ... nonsense off Misplaced Pages" do not convey the level of impartiality that one would expect from an admin going about his or her duties. GeorgeStepanek\ 20:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Jimbo is on to something here. I already cleaned up Sexual slang after its AfD(which I also closed) before I noticed that you responded. It looks MUCH better know. And 60%+ with policy vio is not "activisim"; besides consensus=/=strict vote tallying.Voice of All(MTG) 06:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

one laptop per child project synergy with wiki?

Heard of the one laptop per child project yet?

How best to synergize? Be a great way to bootstrap a language's wikipedia, to be sure, though surely much more could be realized.

Each one of them there laptops'll have a passable digital camera. Could be a neat part wikifying peace and equality in our time.

Anyhoo, betcha the folks at the OLPC project would receive well some official interest from the folks at Misplaced Pages.

-:)Ozzyslovechild 00:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Nicholas Negroponte is a big fan of Misplaced Pages and often mentions us in conjunction with his talks about one laptop per child. He quite properly regards Misplaced Pages as a great use for such devices. :-) --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

NOR policy update needed

I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point, should not be uploaded to Misplaced Pages unless they have been previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.

Flikr.com, weblogs, partisan political web sites (dailykos, freerepublic, etc) and such are not acceptable, but commercial news organizations and commericial publishers and to a lesser extent, non-profits would be ok. There is simply too much opportunity out there to stage photos, for example:

Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".

Clearly it's a staged photo intended to make a point. If the control parameter of "intended to make a point" is not enforced, the excuse regarding the above scenario would be "I found the trash & signs in the parking lot and merely snapped the photo". Such assertions could not be disproved, opening a pandora's box of scheming opporunities.

Rex071404 06:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The list of examples of this problem is not long, surely? Pcb21| Pete

Why does that matter? This is a loophole which should be closed - see talk on this subject at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) and Talk:John Kerry. Rex071404 13:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Y'all are trying to create a new policy where one isn't needed. All of this falls under Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. If a credible source hasn't identified or reported on the subject of the photograph, then any caption beyond, "This is a pile of trash someone took a picture of" is unverifiable. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that's exactly right. It is a legitimate thing to think about, but we have a longstanding tradition of not making up new policies to solve hypothetical problems. If this gets to be a real problem, we can address it then. :-) --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

(I deleted a few other thoughtful comments just because I'm in a major housecleaning mode.)

Fair-use images in templates

Adam Carr has informed me that you've approved the use of certain non-free images in templates. Is this correct? --Carnildo 20:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't remember ever thinking about it. :-) --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Enough already...

Yo, dude. We get it. You're a popular fellow. Everyone likes you. People like to talk to you about "important" stuff. But hows about you clean up your talk page some? :-) Being a wiki, I would do it, but didn't know whether you kept an archive of any kind or if you simply blanked old discussion. It is getting rather long and starting to get slow to load for some of us slower users. Well, users with slower connections, not necessarily "slower users". Thanks. --LV 20:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Finally I'm doing it now. :-) Your comment provoked me actually. I'm going to be home in December and January (no travel!) and plan to spend a ton of time camping out on the Wiki.

Wiki-meta associations

Some have stated that an Association known as the Association of "Moral" Wikipedians is valid for deletion. Can a Wiki-association, even with some beliefs against the NPOV, be valid for Deletion?

Canadianism 02:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Popularity

How popular are you as a person? Misplaced Pages has been increasing in popularity. By the way, I saw you on Attack of the Show on G4.

I would highly doubt Jimmy is a celebrity, getting strangers saying hi to him on the streets of St. Petersburg. -- user:zanimum

I'm almost completely unknown to the general public. To my knowledge, no one has ever recognized me randomly. I do get recognized at tech conferences at which I am a speaker and in which my picture is in the program, but I don't think this means much. :-) --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Watch

An article posted at Misplaced Pages Watch declares itself to be an open letter to you. So I have moved it to User talk:Jimbo Wales/Wikipedia Watch. -- RHaworth 09:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#DreamGuy

Hi. This week I raised an objection to the Arbitration Committee's closure of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy without attempting to form a decision; at this point the objection has been removed once by Raul654, who made the original motion to close. It seems there is no recourse for users involved in a request that has simply been ignored by the arbitrators, and I currently have no confidence in the arbitration process. A problem exists, it has not been addressed, and there is a strong indication it will continue. Could you please comment on this? ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 15:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Ivan Gundulić

Administrator help: Ivan Gundulić article. Whether he should be concidered Serbian or not. This: (in English) and these, which writes perfectly about his entire Serbian ancestry and this: which states his life's works and Serbian commemoration. However, the newer version of Britannica (the upper-mentioned is older) claims that he is Croatian; although, it has been proven unreliable as it claims that Rudjer Boskovic was also a Croat, yet he was a Serb. What should we do? HolyRomanEmperor 18:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

State the facts, as you did above. Let the reader judge the reliability/validity of the sources. If conclusive evidence emerges, future editors can update the article accordingly. My 2 c. — David Remahl 21:08, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

That's exactly the answer I would have given. On any point of legitimate controversy, Misplaced Pages ought not to take a stand. Now, having said this, I would begin to wonder what caused Britannica to change their minds during the intervening decades. Quite possibly, there is some definitive research in this area which ought to be cited as well? I know nothing about it of course. --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikisource, copyrights, guidance?

At Wikisource, we could really use some help from Wikimedia on copyright. The most urgent question is whether we can archive United Nations Security Council Resolutions under "fair use", see the debate here. However, the impact goes far beyond UNSRC. The same logic disallowing those would also apply to U.S. state laws, the Iraqi constitution, international treaties, etc. So, we very much need some guidance on fair use, which is very complicated. While "fair use" is mostly determined under U.S. common law, Section 107 of the copyright code codifies (quite unclearly) a part of this, but 107 is neither mandatory nor exclusive nor limiting on common law. Does Wikimedia have access to an attorney competent in this area who could provide some guidance?

Thanks very much,

Wolfman 15:40, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom ruling

Jimbo, have you taken the time to look over Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Everyking 3 and consider the issues surrounding it? Basically, the case concluded with a decision to ban an administrator from communicating on the administrators' noticeboard, and also restricted my communication elsewhere by limiting what I can say about other admins. Mainly I criticize the decision for two reasons: 1) I was not given proper time to present evidence (I had a month, and admittedly did not use it, but I feel there should've been no rush, and I shouldn't be blamed for using my Misplaced Pages time primarily for actual editing instead of litigation—note that the ArbCom is always careful to acknowledge that my editing is good even if they think I have a horrible personality. I feel a temporary injunction could have alleviated any concerns about my allegedly problematic behavior while giving me time to gather evidence and discuss matters in detail with the arbitrators.) 2) I was contrite about my incivility on the AN pages, and I had clearly stopped making the kinds of comments the ArbCom objected to (partially for several months, completely for the most recent few weeks). I do maintain that the things I was complaining about were worse than my reactions to them (deeds being more harmful than words), but I fully acknowledge that I was excessive in the criticism and it would've been more constructive if it had been toned down. Part of the reason why I often reacted so bitterly was because I saw in the mistreatment of others the same mistreatment that was done to me early in the year, and wanted them to be treated fairly by our more aggressive admins. But this contrition was disregarded entirely by the arbitrators. I'm not sure why. Possibly they thought I was being insincere; possibly they felt that a case that had progressed so far had to reach the normal conclusion (a punitive ruling); possibly other reasons.

As far as other reasons go, one of them was stated by Raul in an IRC conversation I had with him: basically, my views are illogical and crazy and therefore aren't acceptable even if I am perfectly civil about them. So it's irrelevant if I apologize for the incivility; the views still need to be kept quiet. How do you, personally, feel about this notion? Another reason was more overt: they said that my comments were "ignorant" and I needed to research situations before commenting on them. I deny that they were uninformed in general, and could have offered a mountain of proof of my comments being obviously informed by the evidence of the cases I was considering; furthermore, the ArbCom is itself guilty of ignoring the evidence in three cases against me (there are numerous comments on the cases' various talk pages illustrating blatant ignorance of the matters they were arbitrating), so even if I was guilty here they'd be in no position to judge me.

I would like to hear your thoughts about the situation? This is something short of an outright appeal, just a request for an opinion from someone whose opinion counts. Everyking 07:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you need to delegate or something, Jimbo. I mean, you don't respond, no matter how long I wait. I understand if you're busy, but maybe your role on the project needs to be filled by multiple people. Everyking 14:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to butt-in, but this must be the most hilarious thing I've seen all month.

James F. (talk) 15:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm confused, but didn't Jimbo already delegate his dispute resolution role in this project? Kelly Martin (talk) 15:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

That's my understanding. Jimbo already has delegated the handling of user conduct disputes—to the Arbitration Committee. To be fair, I also understand that Jimbo retains an ultimate authority (backed in principle by the support of the Board) over Misplaced Pages. He serves as a final avenue for appeal with the authority to overturn ArbCom decisions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh no, arbitrators are beating up on me. Fortunately I'm used to it. Everyking 19:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Per the note I made above, I suspect that Jimbo may be reluctant to comment on this request–'something short of an outright appeal'though it may be–because his words do carry a significant weight. A casual statement by Jimbo on the issue would be taken by many to be a firm and direct endorsement or rejection of the ArbCom's decision; such a statement shouldn't be made lightly.

As an aside, Jimbo has only made 11 edits so far this month on the English Misplaced Pages. Out of 34 sections added to his talk page in the month of November, he has responded to only two. One was a direct response to a question about an admin action taken by Jimbo, the other dealt with a project that could spread Misplaced Pages to a new and broader audience. Unless Everyking does want to lodge a formal appeal, Jimbo seems to be taking a pretty light hand at en:. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I changed my mind; yes I do want to lodge a formal appeal. I want the whole ruling thrown out and the ArbCom formally reprimanded for so blatantly abusing the trust the community has placed in it. Let's see if that gets me a response any quicker. Everyking 05:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I accept your formal appeal. This didn't actually cause my quicker response, it's just that I've finally gotten around to cleaning up my user talk page. It will take me 'at least 1 week, and likely 3 weeks, to be able to respond properly to you though. I am still in extreme travel mode until December 3, and after that I will not be travelling at all (if I can help it) until February.

Health of Mice

Hello, this is my first time contacting you. User:103749 attempted to create the article mouse health, not as vandalism, but as a forum page where people can come and ask other users questions about the specific topic (in this case, the health of mice). After I deleted the article, the user asked me if there is a way to create an article that can be dedicated just for the purpose of asking a question and having anyone answer it, similar to a forum but on Misplaced Pages. I told him that Misplaced Pages isn't that sort of project, but was wondering if there was a project like that on Wikimedia so I could give him a definite answer. Thanks! -- PRueda29 23:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo rarely shows up, so I'd recommend asking these questions elsewhere. That forum is at Misplaced Pages:Reference Desk, it's one of the best parts about wikipdia. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I would imagine that 'mouse health' might make for a great Wikicities site, actually. It's a legitimate topic for discussion and community knowledge-base building, but that isn't the same thing as an encyclopedia article. --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Can this .............

Can the article "Contact Consequences" be looked at to determine if this article should be terminated, if time permits ? Just found out that you're THE Boss of Misplaced Pages. The article is being cleaned up by the Clean-up Task Force. I'm new to Misplaced Pages, looking for a guide, so that I do'nt end up in trouble unwittingly.Martial Law 06:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Me again...

What is the deal with Wikibooks? You said only textbooks should be there, but currently most of WB is not textbooks. What about self-help, how-to-do-whatever, books? There are a lot of issues surrounding the new enforcement of policy there. Should we just start tagging modules with the speedy tag? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. --LV 16:49, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo please provide some input. Misplaced Pages Fiction states that:

Wikibooks, Misplaced Pages's sibling project, contains instructional and educational texts. These include annotated works of fiction (on the Wikibooks:annotated texts bookshelf) for classroom or private study use.

So works of fiction are allowed at Wikibooks? Even the Misplaced Pages Wikibooks article states:

The project is a collection of free textbooks, manuals, and other texts, with supporting book-based texts, that is written collaboratively on this website.

Quite a bit of stuff is in line to be transwikied from WP to WB that does not fit under the "textbook provision". Either there is a ton of misinformation about what Wikibooks is and it has strayed from it's original intention, or you are vastly trying to change Wikibooks a long time into the development. Please let us know what we should do. Should we go around changing all the Wikibooks information, or should we go around changing all the Wikibooks? Thanks. --LV 18:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to keep pestering you, and appearing impatient, but we over at WB are awaiting an answer to know what direction to go. --LV 18:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

$100 computer

I suspect you're already aware of this project. I wasn't, until reading they'd rejected Steve Jobs' offer of free OS X in favor of open source software. I imagine it would be good for Misplaced Pages to see whether there is a role for us in this initiative. - Nunh-huh 03:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've met Nicholas Negroponte, and he's a big fan of Misplaced Pages. He's on record stating that he'd like to see Misplaced Pages on the $100 laptop. My own opinion is that Misplaced Pages is one of the 'killer apps' for this device. --Jimbo Wales 06:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Glad you're on top of it. I can't figure out how that would work (memory and storage-wise), but as long as someone can! - Nunh-huh 06:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is abysmal at covering the places that this fabled laptop is aimed at — see here. All the other major encyclopedias have better coverage. - Xed 00:17, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Given every Misplaced Pages user is a potential contributor, an influx of new users from these underserved regions will probably improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of them. - Counterpoint, 19 November 2005

I agree with Xed on this point -- our coverage of the less developed world could be a lot better. On the other hand, take just about any article in this area, and compare it to what it looked like a year ago, and significant progress has already been made. This is no reason for complacency, of course. --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Personal opinion and concern

Hello Jimbo I am sorry to disturb you, as I know that you are busy and I am not a registered user. But since a while I look how an article about the Salvation Army develops. After writing in the "talk" without receiving an answer please let me tell you, that I regret deeply, that the quality in parts of the article is not very good. It's also a question what is needed in an encyclopedia article about the Salvation Army. If you like to write everything they do or have done, you can scan libraries! Less quantity but more quality would be asked in such an article. Would it not be possible that you try to get experts on such a theme? (I am not paied by the Salvation Army but have a private museum about it therefore I believe that I am allowed to give a comment.) Perhaps you wonder why I do not make the changes which are needed? Because I fear the "edit-war" from people, who think that their opinion is more important. If I do correct and try to improve the article then.... What could be done, that someone who knows a lot about such a theme does not need to fear an edit war and perhaps endless discussions? I know it will never be possible to write such an article in way, that everybody is satisfied but it should be possible to really improve an article. kindest regards C.F. PS the quality of the German version is better, this I have checked

GFDL and deleted content

Hello Jimbo, how does the GFDL handle deleted content? It seems to me that all GFDL contributions to wikipedia that aren't copyright violations themselves (or obvious vandalism too perhaps) would have to be saved and delivered by wikipedia somehow? What happens if an article exists for a few months and then for one reason or another it is deleted, doesn't the GFDL require wikipedia to in some way deliver that content to users? Just wondering. zen master T 19:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The basic answer is no. The GFDL does not impose an obligation to continue distributing any material. It simply requires that whatever content is distributed must comply with the terms of the license. --Michael Snow 20:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you prepared?

Greetings, Jimbo, its Master Jay. I was wondering if you, or perhaps the core of sysops, have a plan in the event of a fresh wave of attacks. In other words, is there a troll-prevention plan, or something along the lines of that. Thanks for your time. You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Misplaced Pages. (You must be thinking "it must be a bad joke.) - Don't block me.--Master Jay 00:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Malware

The Willy on Wheels stole the password of my previous account. I think he has trojan malware to fish out passwords with.

Suspiciously, WoW is trying to use legitimate accounts to circumvent the security against his Willy-style usernames. My old username is SuperDude115. --Nintendude 02:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Have you emailed this to wikitech-l? They would be well placed to look into it. --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Polygamy "Decision" was a "Summary Judgment & Execution" made without ever hearing all the facts

On 02:52, 15 November 2005, the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy "decision" was made to push out a rare proven topic expert on polygamy, while giving free reign to a hostile proven anti-polygamy editor to misinform Misplaced Pages readers with propaganda POV. Unfortunately, their anti-expert "Decision" was made completely without any consideraton of the facts or fairness whatsoever. Truly, the evidence testifies (to any honest observer) against the making of this "Summary Judgment and Execution" where considering the facts had never been allowed or performed.

Could you please take a look?

Sure, I'll take a look sometime in the next 3 weeks. I deleted the rest of what you posted here, but I'll read that too. --Jimbo Wales 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Poll regarding ArbComm member selection process

Jim:

Hello! I hope you're well. I want to inform you of a 'straw' poll currently underway regarding possible alternatives to selecting arbitrators (The Strawman Cometh :)). There appears to be a clear majority – a consensus, if you will – for electing ArbComm members. Let me know if you've any questions. Anyhow, enjoy, and thanks for your consideration! E Pluribus Anthony 17:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I will be very surprised—pleasantly surprised, of course—if Jimbo pays any attention to this. He must have a good reason to have decided to override the community's wishes and established practice—I suppose he finds the idea of the community expressing its wishes on this matter worrying for some reason. For my part, I find it worrying that he would find that worrying. Everyking 10:31, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo, please...

There is a lot of turmoil over at Wikibooks. Please see the above post of mine if it got passed over. If not you, some other member of the Board. Thanks. --LV 19:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Señor Wales

Hey, I'm looking forward to meeting you in January down in St. Pete. So what else do you guys do when you go to these places? Molotov (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, Jimbo, from Edward G. Nilges (spinoza1111)

Spinoza1111 04:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)I learned of wikipedia a year ago and have made some contributions, most of which survived: see the Adorno page. I find your essay on NPOV one of the most moving and intelligent things I have ever read.

I am no "libertarian". Instead, my explanation for your success is that it confirms Marx's view that the source of knowledge is the people. In a dialectic, what seemed initially to be the worst idea in the world becomes the best idea in the world.

I have long learned to look for knowledge in ignorance and love in hate for that is the way the world works in my experience. At the level of human affairs, the dialectic may work because you're talking not about atoms in a gas but intelligent and emotive agents whose mathematics is not yet fully explored or known. Thus your discovery of the wisdom of the crowd can logically coexist with our knowledge of its madness and is itself redemptive.

As a published computer author (Build Your Own .Net Language and Compiler) I suppose that I should resent and fear this form of Adorno's "Nightmare of Childhood": for my fat and it must be admitted, prolix pal Theodore Adorno, the Nazi mob was the crystallization of all the old fears of the Parzival, the upper middle class child protected from birth by Herzelied against what Wagner called "the clangor" and the mob.

I have to remind myself. These were my father's fears, from the era of WWII. I need to sort out what I fear and do not fear.

I have learned through experiences which cannot be shared when ladies are present that there are moments when the nightmare has to be taken to the crisis and Misplaced Pages is the crisis I have been searching for all my life, one with a theme in a major key (NPOV).

It has the nightmare potential of slavery at some future date in which people are forced to maintain wikipedia as slaves. But of course one joins today from freedom of the will.

So keep up the work you do.

I find it rather difficult to imagine a future scenario in which "people are forced to maintain wikipedia as slaves". Do you mean that you expect the Wikimedia Foundation to one day become part of a world government that conscripts workers to maintain its sites? I guess one could come up with a dystopian science-fiction story with such a plotline, but it seems rather unlikely for the real world. Anyway, a Misplaced Pages maintained by slaves would likely be extremely poor in quality, as it's better to have the work be done by a small group who cares about what they do than a large group who's forced to do it.

Looking at your other contributions and comments, I see that you're prone to writing lengthy essays stemming from some sort of leftist/Marxist/deconstructionist sociopolitical agenda of yours, which hasn't gone over very well especially when you try to apply it to everything from comic strips to programming languages. You'll do better here if you tone down your attitude a bit. *Dan T.* 19:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Spinoza1111 10:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)I find it useful and have no plan to chill. And, having an agenda is part of being a grownup with beliefs and goals so you bet your sweet patootie, assuming you have some sort of a sweet patootie, I have an agenda. I read computer programs "deconstructively" since there is no other way to read them. As to comic strips which manufacture consent to unacceptable lives, it's high time.

Gee, I hope this place is not some fucking cult...in which new entrants are supposed to be some sort of *tabula rasa* and in which we're all supposed to be worried about making a good impression on the Maximum Leader.

The fact is that Jimbo is on to something which is going to be fucked up bigtime if it becomes "reified" in the sense of stopping thought. I'm a person and not a POV and thus I have no need to be N.

For example, the Dilbert article is today not an ad for Dilbert junk as it was before I moseyed in, and it contains a well-balancing section today, with references, which shows that there are people, like Norman Solomon, who find the Dilbert sends a conformist message. This makes the article more truly NPOV, but I had the energy to do the homework demanded by other participants because I have a POV about Dilbert.

That old stinker Marx actually believed that capitalism is one big fat POV which as a POV systematically erases any other POV, such as the POV of indigneous tribes eradicated in primitive accumulation, or the POV of the working stiff. He believed that we'd only be "objective" after the Revolution.

He may have been wrong, but basically he was interested in NPOV same as anyone else. If he had believed in the POV of the stronger, he would not have been able to criticise capitalism at all.

What Jimbo is on to is that NPOV exists and we need it. However, it is easily confused with being a dull fellow or a tabula rasa.

However, you may have a rational fear that I might be The Great Soviet Encyclopedia type of person. All I can say is that Wales' essay seems to distinguish between people and views.

As to my science fiction story, the potential for slavery exists all over the entire open source movement. As I said, the potential is in a dialectic relationship with freedom as regards wikipedia and open source.

I'm not saying "Freedom is Slavery" in Orwell's sense, or, if I am, it depends on what the meaning of "is", is, as it did for Clinton.

I am saying that information isn't "produced", it is something that comes to be known. A society in which information production is no longer a matter of paid authorship is one that has relieved itself of one more onerous task, and that's a good thing. The devil is in the details and in the treatment of people who did not contract to work for free.

Protection Tool Update

I really like the idea of multiple layers of protection. We could have:

Open(no protection)

1. No Moves
2. Logged in Only
3. Logged in with edit count 25+
4. Logged in with edit count 100+(pretty much like protection, but non-admins can edit)
5. Protected

Numbers 2-4 are "semiprotection". This would VASTLY cut down on vandalism and would be no where NEAR as restrictive and anti-wiki as page protection. Can you get this implemented somehow? What developers could do this? Thank you.Voice of All 05:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Request for Semi-Protection, Vandalism, Future of Misplaced Pages discussion on IRC

What's up Jimbo, I just wanted to ask if you could arrange and meet on IRC sometime with as many users from the mailing list, hopefully some developers, and many editors who have become involved in the discussion about what to do to combat rising vandalism. Several options have been discussed in both the Village Pump, Bugzilla, and highly vandalized pages such as George W. Bush, but it seems always to hit a wall. Let me know if you're available for such a meeting and I will spread the word to the extensive amount of editors currently involved in the discussion. --kizzle 01:39, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Did you get my previous note about semi-protect? I left it on this talk page...and it vanished with everyhing else. I agree with Kizzle here...its time to semi-protect.Voice of All 14:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it should be considered but may I suggest on-site. Marskell 14:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

If I may, I would like to join Voice of All in favor of a semi-protection function. The overwhelming amount of vandalism that the George W. Bush article receives needs to be preventable, and rolling back using traditional methods is no longer viable. Hall Monitor 19:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm not sure where I stand on the semi-protection feature, but I do want to have a discussion over what options we have to limit vandalism, especially to such pages as George W. Bush, and to have a serious debate as to balancing what is considered "wiki" versus realistic consequences of massive upscaling. --kizzle 23:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I reckon it would be helpful to publish some data on how vandalism is rising (seems easy enough - just publish the total amount of time that a popular article such as GWB has spent in a vandalized state this week, and for the past N weeks). We assume that this amount is rising, and if it is, we pick a threshold (which we may well have already past) and say look we are going to have to have extra protection for this page. Data is really useful here. People have requested semi-protection of one kind of another for years, so it will meet resistance on this round too. Provide data to show what you think is happening and the status quoers will not be able to fiddle whilst our Rome burns. Pcb21 Pete 09:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

This has been informally done at GWB Talk a few times. I recall, for instance, checking last 250 and concluding 87% was vandalism or reversions a month ago. At times it will be vandalized 6 to 10 times an hour. Beyond question something must be done about the page and indeed, semi-protection may only really be needed there. Marskell 10:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

While the absolute number of reversions is important too, the most important statistics is the proportion of time an article spends vandalized (if the number of vandals increases, it stands to reason that the number of good guys increases too, thus decreasing the amount of time to revert). I haven't seen this statistic around, but maybe I missed it. 10 times an hour, with let's see a mean time to revert of 1min means that the article is vandalized 16% of the time. To me, this is way over the threshold I mentioned above. But you are right GWB is a special case, perhaps even a unique special case, so we need to be careful to avoid a slippery slope (our previous experience shows that on WP if something can be a slippery slope, it will be!) Pcb21 Pete 10:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Jimbo Wales

Hmm.. there currently is somewhat a disagreement between User:Cool Cat (me) and User:Voice of All(MTG). The actual change isnt much.

what I propose, his proposal. Since it is your userpage, I feel you should like it and hence decide how it should look. --Cool Cat 22:02, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

FYI, these last two wiki-links are not working. Or more specifically, they aren't pointing to any type of proposals. Are these semi-protection proposals? If so, I would love to read them. Hall Monitor 23:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, no we are "fighting" over how Jimbos user page should look like :) --Cool Cat 12:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

This would be the best lamest edit war ever :)!

BTW, I modified the semi-protect tag too...muhahaha!!!Voice of All 13:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)