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Template loop detected: Misplaced Pages:Votes for undeletion/Vfu header This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators. Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Content review

Editors who wish to see the content of a deleted article may place a request here. They may wish to use that content elsewhere, for example. Alternatively, they may suspect that an article has been wrongly deleted, but are unable to tell without seeing what exactly was deleted. As a subset of this, sometimes an article which is appropriate for a sister site is deleted without being properly transwikied. If the page is undeleted temporarily, it can be exported complete with history using Special:Export, and then redeleted. This will be especially useful once the import feature is completed.

November 28, 2005

Church of Reality

What happened to the discussion? I started a short stub on Marcperkel's user page. I think the article should be moved there. After a few weeks of editing to make the article up to Misplaced Pages standards it should be re-examined here to see if it is "notable" enough to be put into Misplaced Pages on its own. I happened to be reading Marc Perkel's blog a few years ago when the CoR started (online) and got interested enough to subscribe to the mailing list. I do think that the CoR deserves some recognition on Misplaced Pages, but the version of the article that Marc is trying to put up is too PoV and biased. I would like to be able to edit his version to make it more encyclopediotic (sp?). Marc does need to tone down the whole persecution thing tho... I think keeping the article on his user page for the time being is a good compromise and will help make this discussion productive rather than destructive (Marc pointing his mailing list to people's talk pages). Paul 18:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • What happened to this discussion is that it was the victim of a revert war. See the history of this page if you want to peruse it. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of starting an article as a subpage of somebody else's user page, but I think you may be onto a reasonable idea. If you spend some time writing a good article someplace outside of the normal Misplaced Pages article space, and then come back to WP:DRV with a proposal to restore it, we could then have a rational discussion about the merits of the article. But, be forewarned that after the nastyness that has raged here for the past day or so, you have an uphill battle in front of you. In order to gain consensus that the article should be restored with your new contents, you will need to demonstrate that it meets the Misplaced Pages requirements not only for neutral point of view but also for verifiability, etc (see Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not for more details). I personally suspect it will be difficult to do that, but you are welcome to make the effort. If you do it in a calm and rational manner, it will receive fair consideration (which is not to promise that it will turn out with the result you seek). --RoySmith 19:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. I came in on the tail end of this discussion, but I assume Marc will be okay with this compromise for the time being. I haven't actually spoken to him about the matter. I understand that there is no guarantee that the article belongs in Misplaced Pages, but I do think it is notable enough to be included. However, the present article is way too PoV to even have a rational discussion about it. This all depends on how much Marc is willing to work to make the article comply with the Misplaced Pages conventions. I have to run to a class now so I won't be able to respond, but thanks for the somewhat positive response, I just hope Marc actually reads it. Paul 19:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree... while Marc is to be commended for putting together the whole COR concept and generating a LOT of truly interesting content, I understand that you just can't demand inclusion in Misplaced Pages based on the passion of the adherents. And I also agree that this is not religious persecution, but rather the way that Misplaced Pages works. On the other hand, Cory Doctorow thought enough of COR to mention it on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/20/church_of_reality_is.htmlMike 20:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 27, 2005

Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term)

I would like to see the content of deleted articles Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term) in order to assess the merits of (1) undeleting the latter, more recent article and (2) assessing to what extent the AfD arguments in favor of deleting the former article are applicable to the latter. TIA, --FRS 01:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

FRS knows what the contents were, as he was one of the people reverting to those contents. (They were "redirect" for most of its life, and briefly a badly written, unintelligent, completely unsourced, POV personal essay, which violated all our editorial policies. He also knows that when voting to delete or undelete, the contents are irrelevant, because it's the topic that's being voted on. Asking for this to be undeleted before the vote is over is just an attempt to cause trouble. SlimVirgin 03:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I have no idea what the content of the older article was because I started contributing here long after it was AfD'd, and I object to SVs unjustified smear of my motives. FRS 04:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is unneccessary Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism shows that the article was almosty unanimously deleted as a non-notable neologism. Any argument for undeletion, or for a new article by this name, would not depend on the contents of the article, but on establishing, by fresh evidence, that the term itself was notable. Go, construct a case on the talk page - if you can make one (which I doubt) then request undeletion. The issue in question is not the article's content, but whether this term merits an article.--Doc 13:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I wouldn't mind seeing Judeofascism revived as a vprotected redirect to List of political epithets. I thought at one time that it might be able to stand as an article in its own right, but after thorough review, I have been unable to find a single solitary noteworthy person who uses the term. I couldn't even find it in use by such rabid antisemites like the marginally noteworthy Alex Linder. Tomer 07:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I would mind. And I would mind the creation of an article entitled "The 9/11 Attacks Were A Jewish Plot" no matter where it redirected. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
That pretty obviously goes to Conspiracy theory. :-p Tomer 19:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, following Doc's instructions, I've added material to the Talk page on why this article should have a fresh AfD vote. FRS 20:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

History only undeletion

History only undeletions can be performed without needing a vote on this page. For example, suppose someone writes a biased article on Fred Flintstone, it is deleted, and subsequently someone else writes a decent article on Fred Flintstone. The original, biased article can be undeleted, in which case it will merely sit in the page history of the Fred Flintstone article, causing no harm. Please do not do this in the case of copyright violations.


Decisions to be reviewed

Template loop detected: Template:Vfu mechanics

November 28, 2005

AutoExtra.com

I would like for this business name to be reconsidered for addition into wikipedia - for reasons similiar to Amazon.com being included. AutoExtra.com is a business name (including the .com!) and as such has a place in the index for background and extra information regarding the business.--Adam

  • Note: article was speedied as linkspam. Presumably you could rewrite it using neutral point of view and avoiding spam and it couldn't be speedy deleted. However, I also suggest that you take a look at WP:CORP to see if AutoExtra.com meets typical community standards for notable businesses. We have an article on Amazon because they were very large and groundbreaking. -- SCZenz 22:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and send to afd. The deleted revisions are linkspam and shouldn't be in an independent article, but I don't think the most recent version was blatant enough to speedy. The site itself has a credible Alexa rank of 13,174 and several Google news hits, so may well survive the full afd process if expanded. On the other hand, we already have a proper, if short, article at AutoExtra, and I suspect consensus will be to merge it there. —Cryptic (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and list, because I'm pretty sure the outcome will be merge or redirect, but I'm not sure which one. Titoxd 23:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and redirect to AutoExtra. Or, if there's nothing but linkspam in the old versions of AutoExtra.com, just keep deleted and redirect. Either way, no reason to have a separate article, and no reason to keep an obvious redirect to a currently-existing article shut down. There's no reason to have an AfD; if there's non-spam content it can be gotten out of the history and merged without all the bureaucracy. -- SCZenz 23:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Merrr

My article on the origin of the word merrr was deleted yesterday and I request it be undeleted as it is an informative article on a pretty big craze that is getting bigger all the time. Theres a good 2000 people who use this term and it is getting more popular each day, so before long this will become something that you the administrators will recognize.

George Alexander (US Army soldier)

See the AfD here.

The AfD debate was long and the closing admin (Sjakkalle), quite rightly couldn't see much consensus. However, now we have the claim that article should be merged into 2003 invasion of Iraq media coverage (which has been done), and this page made a redirect (which has been opposed). Is it too early to begin AfD with this again? --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Relist — with the clear option of the merge stated from the outset. --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • AFD does not decide merge vs keep. --SPUI (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with SPUI. Merge-versus-breakout does not require sysop intervention and is treated as normal editing. Editors involved duke it out discuss it rationally amongst themselves on the Talk pages, reach consensus, etc. The AfD discussion can serve as a talking point, but has no special authority other than a convenient record of what people thought. This is not a matter for WP:AfD or WP:DRV at this point. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above, with the addition that the place to discuss this is Talk:George Alexander (US Army soldier), and the way to draw attention to such a discussion is Misplaced Pages:Requests for comments. Uncle G 20:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment — the reason I listed this here is because the outcome of WP:AFD has been interpreted very differently by different editors, who are currently revert warring. I beleive this is the right place to discuss AfDs that have not worked properly: that is partly why its name was changed. --Gareth Hughes 22:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The outcome of the AfD was no consensus; there certainly wasn't a consensus to merge either (since almost nobody said merge at the AfD). So the disagreement about merging the article has nothing to do with deletion review that I can see. The AfD worked perfectly, revealing there wasn't a consensus to delete the article, which is all it can do; reviewing the workings of an AfD is all that Deletion Review can do. All the editors involved will have to talk it out. -- SCZenz 22:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Packages in Java

I dont think the deletion decision here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Packages in Java was very fair since there were 3 keeps and 3 deletes and it was claimed that there was 2k - 5d. If it deserves a wikibook article, it should have an article here, at least a shorter version which points to the wikibook article. I tried putting up a shorter version of the article (minus the list parts) up but it was deleted again by User:Splash I don't want the article restored to its original state, but made a shorter version than is up at wikibooks. Astrokey44 09:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. Possibly not the call I would've made, but I see how he got it. DanMS and Mgm's comments, although not explicit "votes", do unequivocally support the delete position and are well-reasoned contributions to the discussion. Astrokey44's reasoning was wholly irrelevant and legitimately discounted. That does give 5-2. -- SCZenz 09:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have no strong feelings on the existence-or-not of this article but observe a few things. First, that the "shorter version of the article" was identical to the version I deleted, save for a removal of the long list of packages. Second, numerically, if I were to included Mgm as a delete, it's probably 6d-2k. Third, Astrokey44 has suggested a template linking to Wikibooks: I think this is a good idea, but don't know what the template is. We have something like "Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on <topic> but Wiktionary does <link>" — do we have one for Wikibooks, or do we just have to use {{Wikibookspar|Transwiki|Packages in Java}}? Fourth, I deliberately didn't orphan this article since I rather suspect some Wikipedic article could exist at this title, or a similar one, but the AfD was, I thought, clear enough on this particular offering. -Splash 09:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    I just made one here Template:Wikibooksarticle and put it back on the article as you suggested - can you change it goes straight to the article rather than doing a search? I dont know template code stuff very well. Astrokey44 09:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. If you want to make the wikibook more visible listing it in the external link section of Java programming language and slightly expanding the brief mention packages have there will work better as it provides lots more context. - Mgm| 09:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and keep the soft redirect. I think that having this transwikied with a soft redirect left behind resolves the concerns listed at the AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 26, 2005

List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (2nd nomination)

The administrator himself said that even after accounting for possible sockpuppets the total tally was 21 delete to 12 keep, many keeps of were hasty reactions and yet he still chose no consensus. This is the second time this list has been voted for deletion and the second time it has concluded in no consensus when it's counterparts List of Jews in the Russian Academy of Sciences, List of Jews in the French Academy of Sciences were deleted right off the bat. I repudiate my previous claim for possible bias - I'm just not entirely sure why no consensus reaches the same conclusion as keep in the long run - especially when majority clearly prevailed here. Antidote 19:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. I see nothing to suggest anything wrong in this close, and the fact that it has survived twice makes it clear to me that this article ought not go anywhere. Phil Sandifer 19:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Notice that is survived both of those deletions with a large amount of deletes compared to minimal keeps - clearly that shows that this list has only survived two deletion attempts because of no consensus conclusions NOT keep conclusions. Antidote 21:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorsre close. It's 63% for deletion, which makes a close of "no consensus" entirely appropriate. Consistency on "Jews in XYZ" lists would be nice, but it's not clear to me how to obtain it. -- SCZenz 19:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and I voted to delete the article. The closing was correct (or at least totaly reasonable). Antidote says he has a 'sneaking suspicion of bias here', well I don't know how he manages that if he is assuming good faith--Doc 21:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Why this was a no consensus I will never understand as it is clear that lists like this are overtly extraneous and have had a history of deletion. Also I don't see how its fair that a "no consensus" reaches the same conclusion as a keep especially when the majority called for delete. If anything, a no consensus vote should put the article on lockdown until a consensus is reached. Otherwise, keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete. Also you're right, I should assume good faith, and will but the wikipedia deletion system is HORRIBLY flawed if the conclusion is to keep the article now. Antidote 21:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close with a touch of prejudice per Doc. I paused over this on AfD and almost voted delete myself. (I thought): "Criteria is clear. Relevance of main noun to criteria is quite debatable." Did not vote ultimately, but looking at the votes this was closed properly in terms of procedure. To anidote: the onus is on delete in AfD. This is acceptable conservatism. Marskell 21:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn either by re-opening afd or putting article on some type of lockdown - unfortunately, I don't know how to proceed in this case. If 75% if max for delete I suppose reopening the article is the only way to proceed - again, I'm not sure. Antidote 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I know it looks bad but it's the only way I can see to proceed fairly - two no consensus in a row SHOULD NOT equate to a keep. Antidote 21:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes it should. Phil Sandifer 21:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope you're kidding. I suppose next time and AFD vote has 63% delete votes we should just put keep. Antidote 22:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
That is likely what he'd say, in my experience. ;-) To save a pointless argument, may I interject here and suggest that looking into starting a general discussion on List of (Ethnic/religious group) in (Profession) articles would be more productive than AfD'ing this one until you get the result you want? -- SCZenz 22:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not the result that I want, it's the result that should fairly be given. If there is a no consensus then it should not be treated the same as a keep especially concerning majority delete. Given this, I am reluctant to put up another AFD because people will probably take it too seriously and bitch and complain...blah blah. The point is that this list should be given some type of lockdown mode where a consensus CAN be reached. It is the only fair way to proceed. I think the same should be done to List of Roman Catholics. Antidote 22:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And next we can lock all self-identified deletionists and inclusionists in a room until they reach a consensus on a middle school!  ;-) -- SCZenz 23:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yea, clearly I can see you're not taking this seriously. I can't help but be shocked at how unfair this conclusion was. Now there is no way to renominate this list because 3rd AFD would make the keep voters shit their pants and put hysterical keeps...even though a sturdy majority voted delete before and a history of deletions have occurred with lists like this. The system here falls apart. Antidote 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive my levity, but I had a serious point. There are many articles we just won't receive a consensus on, at least not in the forseeable future. Why should these articles be specially locked down in some way? -- SCZenz 23:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a special case in a way - majority voted delete but it still led to an inevitable keep through no consensus. The list in itself is way overextended and all its predecessors have been deleted. It's the loner stander and only based on a lot of keep votes in retaliation for renomination. I think all no consensus articles should be so-called "quaranteened" until a keep or delete decision is reached - but its usually not necessary for those because the keep and deletes are evenly matched and the articles themselves aren't lone standers. It's the equivalent of keeping a List of unicyclists in the National Academy of Medicine - way too detailed and for no purpose. Antidote 00:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
(Resetting indentation)
To be perfectly clear, a lack of consensus to delete means, has always meant, and I expect will always mean that we keep the article. The default position of all articles is "keep." Without a consensus to change that position, the position remains "keep." Phil Sandifer 00:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
So I was correct in saying that keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete, even if a majority vote is delete. That doesn't entirely strike me as fairness. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ummm... this isn't some sort of contest between delete and keep where we're interested in a fair fight. Phil Sandifer 01:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Since Misplaced Pages is not paper, if we can't get a consensus to delete a not-so-good article, well, it's not the end of the world. That's why the default action is keep. (And there's no more consensus to "quarantine" than to delete, I'd imagine.) Yes, the debate was close, but I think it's fair to say 21-12 isn't a consensus. It's almost a marginal consensus, true, but that's not too convincing to me. For what it's worth, I agree with you about the article, and I'd support a general discussion on the issues you raise in order to get consistency on this type of list. But I don't see the relevance of this being a "lone stander" if the articles are considered one by one, and the fact that it's "way too detailed and for no purpose" is just your (and my) opinion. -- SCZenz 00:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
How about we open a discussion in the Talk page, and see if we can perhaps make a List of Fellows of the Royal Society and move the Jewish list into that (though I'm not thrilled with having that list either - again - it's seems a bit overextended). But, it's the best thing to do at this point. Unless there's an agreement to create another AFD --- which I highly doubt there will be. Also, I think 21 to 12 is a hefty vote but then again that's just my opinion. The list of Jewish publishers had a 25 to 9 vote or something, and it was deleted. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it's quite possible that I'm the only person in this discussion who can give a Royal Institution member's eye view. This article should under no circumstances have been considered for deletion and I don't know why it ever was. If it's ever listed for deletion again the result will be a keep. It would therefore be unwise to attempt to overturn the keep result of the last AfD, in which no consensus to delete was found. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
List of Fellows of the Royal Society would have been marginally acceptable (though I still think it's too extraneous in the long run) but List of Jedi Fellows of the Royal Society, List of Brazilian Fellows of the Royal Society and List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society are not. Antidote 23:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Well within reasonable parametres, so much so in fact, that I think closing it as a delete would have been quite dubious. Two "no consensus" results in a row, means that there was still no consensus, so the article is still kept. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn The article should live. --Marcperkel 15:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The article hasn't been deleted. The discussion was brought here to review whether or not it should, in fact, have been. Overturning the closure (of no consensus) doesn't sound like what you mean. -Splash 16:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Even though I personally would have voted for deletion, the actual vote doesn't come anywhere near true consensus, and the fact it's survived two AfDs suggests that's not a fluke. Should be kept and should not be re-nominated any time soon. Too bad, but there you have it. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It has survived two afds by only managing a no conesus both with staggering amounts of delete votes---- this is no way suggests that the article is a keeper - all it shows is that its contributors are staunchly proud of their list and wish to keep it - hence pushing many close delete votes to no consensuses - SEE history of deletion of lists of this type. Antidote 23:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

I have tentatively undeleted this and was then notified on my talk page that I should mention this here. I believe there were enough keep votes in the deletion "debate" to warrant keeping this article on the grounds of lack of consensus to delete. I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft". Furthermore, there have been two speedy keep votes and at least two early attempts to speedy-keep the article; I would have been the third to vote speedy keep if I had participated in the "discussion". I didn't because I saw enough keep votes that I didn't think it would be deleted. — Timwi 12:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I re-deleted this. I've no opinion on the article or the legitimacy of the AfD closing, but this is 'Deletion review' not 'undeletion homologation'. Let it be decided here as to whether the stay deleted or not. --Doc 17:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn undeletion (Endorse original AfD). Valid AfD (30 deletes/11 keep/9 merge/1 anon) with a note in the discussion that the information had been merged into Ontario provincial highway 401 during the course of the discussion. As a result of the incorporation of the material into the parent article the only potential difference between deletion and a merge is the creation of a redirect. As the article's name is fairly cumbersome, a decision to delete instead of creating a redirect was within reasonable bounds of administrator discretion. Examination of the merged article does not show any obvious need for splitting things out based on article size. It should also be noted that there were at least as many references to WP:NOT by persons supporting deletion as use of the term roadcruft, so a reason for deletion based on core Misplaced Pages policies was available for anyone wishing to find it. --Allen3  14:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse / KD. Timwi, please read up on our deletion policy. There have been some proposals along the lines of "anything with 5 or more keep votes is automatically kept" but all of these have been rejected. And despite your claim I notice several 'delete' votes with lengthy explanations. Radiant_>|< 19:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted without prejudice. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep merged. It's not deleted, so we shouldn't be discussing an undeletion. To comply with GFDL requirements we need to undelete the history and place a redirect here, so people can see where the material came from and who contributed it. - Mgm| 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Gamaliel 00:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. The consensus at AfD was quite clear. And when you're the 30th vote, there's no need to write a series of long reasoning again. -- SCZenz 00:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This has already been merged into the highway article. The information is still available in Misplaced Pages, and in the form that's more consistent with existing policy (i.e. in the highway article rather than split out), and the numbers involved can pretty safely be described as consensus. There's no particularly overwhelming reason to revisit this. Keep deleted. (FWIW, I wouldn't oppose recreating the title as a redirect to Ontario provincial highway 401, but there's no need to restore the article in its original form.) Bearcat 01:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Consensus was clear. And as for Timwi's rationale for unilaterally undeleting (I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft".), in addition to being insulting (some voters are more equal than others, eh?) is flatly false, as a quick scan of the AfD page will show. --Calton | Talk 04:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - you can't speedy keep after a full vote that ended in a deletion consensus. Retroactive speedy keep based on only the early votes is ridiculous. - Tεxτurε 21:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Judeofascism

I would like to request that we undelete redirect Judeofascism and point it to the relevant article/section. It was deleted on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism, however due to the fact that Islamofascism is an article in its own right then I feel that we should at least point people to the List of political epiteths page (f they type it in, then it will take them there). I don't actually feel that the term should have it's own article. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I have been bold and created a redirect. Anyone wishing it deleted should list it on WP:RFD. --SPUI (talk) 01:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I have deleted it. It went through an AfD, so no one has the right to restore it unless it goes through a deletion review. SlimVirgin 01:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The AfD was on the article, not the redirect. I am restoring nothing that was "voted" on. --SPUI (talk) 02:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, that's not how AfD works. AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist. If the vote is to keep the title, then it's up to the editors on the page to decide whether it should be a redirect or have a text of its own. This is what happened to Islamofascism: it went through an AfD, the result was keep, for a time it was a redirect, and then someone turned it into an article again. But the consensus for Judeofascism was delete. SlimVirgin 02:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
SPUI has recreated the redirect (again). I have deleted it, and protected, until this process is complete. --Doc 21:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Slim -- I understand your arguments above, and feel strongly that both terms are deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrows. That point of view is apparently not acceptable for discussion. If there is an edit of mine that you feel violates WP:Point, let me see it, and I'll let you know if I agree that I screwed up, which is quite possible. In the meantime, I have posed some reasonable (I think) questions on your talk page, questions I think are worthy of reasonable responses. BrandonYusufToropov 17:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn speedy deletion of the redirect. Redirects are cheap, they aren't obvious, they prevent redirection. Redirects are just plain good. SPUI is right (much as it pains me to say that ;D ); WP:CSD A4 doesn't apply to this redirect, as it isn't substantially identical to the redirect. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AfD result was to delete the title, whether the page had text on it, or whether it had the word "redirect" on it. When something is deleted after an AfD, you can't simply recreate it as a redirect. You have to go through deletion review, which is why Ta bu nominated it. Please allow this process to take place. SlimVirgin 02:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the content, not the title. This is why we have such "rulecruft" on WP:CSD; otherwise people will make up their own reasons to delete articles. --SPUI (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the article; AFD doesn't deal with anything else. WP:CSD A4 (go read it) doesn't allow for deletion of something that isn't substantially identical to the deleted content, and that redirect is not substantially identical to the deleted content. If you want this redirect deleted, go to RFD. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    You're just wrong about that. AfD is always a vote on whether the page should exist i.e. whether the subject is notable, whether there are reputable sources available, whether it's possible for it to be encyclopedic. It is not a vote on the current contents. If the current contents are poor, but otherwise the subject is good, the article should be rewritten, not deleted. AfD does not control content or suspend normal editing practices. It controls which page titles exist. Also, can I ask you please either to have this conversation here, or on our talk pages, because you're currently posting to both, so I'm having to repeat everything. SlimVirgin 03:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I think you're getting speedy delete rules mixed up with AfD. This has nothing to with speedy delete. The article went through an AfD, where people voted overwhelmingly to delete the title. SlimVirgin 03:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Can you point out in the deletion policy where deletion of an article prevents recreation of anything under that title, or where this redirect was debated and the decision was delete? I don't much appreciate being threatened for creating a redirect to the coverage of the term "Judeofascism" (reprehensible as it is) Misplaced Pages does have, at List of political epithets. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • In case it's not clear, I "vote" to keep the redirect. --SPUI (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete the redirect, clearly no CSD applied. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    There was no speedy delete in this case, so the CSD policy does not apply. What applies is the deletion policy, which says this page must go through deletion review before it can be restored. The article went through AfD and the result was delete. Because of a technical problem, it could not be deleted at the time. People forgot about it for awhile, then another editor deleted it (by which time someone else had blanked the contents and made it a redirect, but only pending deletion script). Then Ta bu put it up for deletion review. Someone re-created it and I deleted it, and this happened several times. That is where we stand. SlimVirgin 04:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says delete? If so, and you hadn't just closed a deletion discussion, it was a speedy delete. --SPUI (talk) 04:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says Save page? If so, it was an out of process speedy undeletion. El_C 04:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I deleted it only because you created it without going through deletion review; in other words, you created it against the deletion policy. As an admin, I was responding to a policy violation. SlimVirgin 04:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's my opinion that Slim had a correct interpretation. At the AfD people could have voted 'delete and redirect'. Thus, it should go to DRV before anything happens. Redirects are cheap, yes. So don't fret over her for deleting a redirect which probably won't be used. And I'm neutral as to the final product of this DRV, but I'm endorsing Slim's actions. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted still a neologism. Unless you can provide evidence that the term is used widely by anyone outside of the fringe I see no reason to undelete.Homey 04:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. My point above was that if it's right to undelete it, that's what the deletion review is here for, and when several people think it should be kept deleted, then we obviously should run the DRV. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete as redirect with new AfD.
The AfD on this was hard to count, I think. And in terms of the actual word, it indeed seems like a cheap attempt at WP:POINT (for better or worse, "Islamofascism" has been successfully pushed into public consciousness as a term, mostly by Chris Hitchens; while "Judeofascism" remains a rare neologism. Still, this is a deletion review, not the AfD itself, so it's not really germane what opinion I have of the term itself. For that matter, however, it is conceivable that a term that was rare in April has since come into sufficiently widespread use to warrant an article (even if a redirect one).
Just looking at administration, it appears that the AfD vote was something like 26 delete, 9 redirect (counting one ambiguous vote both ways). If you take those 9 redirect votes as implicit "keep" votes on a redirect page, it narrowly misses delete consensus. I think the most reasonable way to resolve this is to create a page that is a "soft redirect", i.e. says "For explanation see List of political epithets", but then immediately AfD the new page. If that is done, I, for one, will (probably) vote a delete on the new page. But whether there is actual consensus on a page that simply redirects is unclear, IMO. A new AfD on a slightly different issue can establish consensus.
Of course, I want to be clear that I think SlimVirgin took a very reasonable approach to the ambiguous AfD. There's no fault in her action, but it would just be nicer to have an unambiguous consensus to point to. Still, just becasue something was non-notable at one point should not mean that it can never become notable; when I often see two AfD's on the same article within a month, it doesn't seem outrageous to see a new article with the same name 7 months after AfD. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete redirect and send to RfD, technically. A redirect by definition is not "substantially identical" to a regular article. A better idea would be to send the rather idiotic, unmaintainable, necessarily POV List of political epithets to AfD and solve two problems at once. Marskell 06:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse delete -- The deletion was correctly handled for a neologism. Deletion policy holds that "by long tradition and consensus, Deletion Review only addresses procedural problems that may have hampered an AFD." This proposal offers no reasoning as to the invalidity of the deletion, hence the inappropriately created redirect was properly speed-deleted. If one has a problem with "Islamofascism" as an article/title, propose it for AfD. However, there is no parity in creating new "parallel" terms to those one disagrees with just to make a Point. —LeFlyman 06:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted for now, revisit later. I personally don't object to the existence of a redirect at Judeofascism, considering it is used by fringe sources and is mentioned in the List of political epithets. If it's significant enough to be mentioned in the list, then we might as well redirect to the list. But the problem is that it will not remain a redirect. This issue has arisen now because several editors want to write a Judeofascism article as a rhetorical expression of their anger over the existence of Islamofascism. So it seems to me that this is the wrong time to undelete the redirect. Revisit the issue later when tempers have cooled and when there will be less pressure to create an article for a topic that has already been AfD'd. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment There seems to be a lot of confusion over the purpose of AfD. SlimVirgin's explanation makes perfect sense: we vote on the existence of a topic, rather than content, because if a poor article exists on a legit topic then the appropriate remedy is to improve it, not delete it. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that we are voting on the content: people justify delete votes by citing "POV" or "OR", and "redirect" votes are legion. I think the above disagreement between Slim and AMIB is a product of that confusion. Whatever the actual policy is, it would be a good idea to indicate it at the top of AfDs. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • How about redirect (using # to the right (anchor) point in the list even!) and protect the redirect. That way the article can't be recreated either. Would that be a good compromise? Kim Bruning 07:04, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep deleted the original AfD considered substituting a redirect for the article, but it was soundly rejected. Neo-logisms don't deserve redirects. I'm open to reconsidering that decision, but new evidence to the usage of this terms must be supplied and accepted. As far as I see it, none is even being offered. Rightly or wrongly the debated on afd earlier this year concluded that Islamofascism had usage and Judeofascism did not, unless that conclusion can be successfully challanged, the decisions should stand. This is about usage of terms, not political correctness.--Doc 11:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Where would hypothetical evidence of the word's new usage go if it can't go on the page with the same name though? I believe—as I state above—that the only way to decide whether such new usage exists (it has been seven months) is among AfD voters, not here on Deletion review. After all, if the usage is widepread enough to be mentioned in List of political epithets, that seems to endorse the idea that it exists enough for notability and verifiability (or it shouldn't be on that list).
I don't think the poarticular word is really notable either; but administratively, it feels wrong to decide "once deleted" an article title can never be notable. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per above arguments. -- JJay 16:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Slimvirgin and others. Briangotts 17:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD with extremely clear consensus, not only on deletion, but on the reason for deletion. It was deleted because, unlike "Islamofascism," "Judeofascism" is not a real word in any real use. Nothing about this has changed since the AfD. The valid community decision was that there should not be an article entitled "Judeofascism." Nothing about the re-creation as a redirect changes this. IMHO this is clearly POV. For an analogy: suppose someone created an article entitled Fred Rogers was a heinous criminal," and it were deleted on the basis that Fred Rogers was not a criminal at all, and then someone re-created it as a redirect to Fred Rogers and claimed that this was acceptable because the content, being a redirect, was different from that voted for deletion. In both cases, the the title itself expresses a POV that was rejected by the AfD. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. There was nothing wrong with the AfD process used in this case. Redirect is a valid option for people to use in AfD voting: in this case, the deletes won. Please remember that this is a discussion about the AfD process, not the page itself, unless some new information has emerged, which I am not seeing. Turnstep 18:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted This discussion appears to be nothing more than a back-handed way of reversing a decision made by the community.Slrubenstein | ] 20:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per SlimVirgin and Dpbsmith. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - nothing wrong with AfD process or conclusions, no evidence of wider usage of neologism in half-year since then. Rd232 00:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete
Because
1. The article that was most recently Speedy Deleted was titled Judeofascism (term), which is not identical to the title of the article previously deleted some months ago under AfD, that is, Judeofascism. The difference, while subtle, was thought to have some importance in the context of the Islamofascism page, and should be understood to mean that although the existence of the actual alleged political phenomenon is disputed, the existence of notable political discussions employing the label is not.
2. As a result of the deletion, we are not able to see the content of any of the history Judeofascism (term), but if memory serves, one recent variant of the page at least had links to a half dozen or more sites where the term Judeofascism was supposedly used. For the sake of argument, lets suppose (as would not surprise me) that some of those links go to prominent sites, for example Al Jazeera, or are attributable to well known people (e.g, Osama Bin Laden). What's the inherent objection to an article containing such content, if (as we have tried to make happen on Islamofascism (term)) the page does not endorse the use of the term, and provides examples of criticisms of its use.
Accordingly, I strongly believe a speedy delete is inappropriate, and that an AfD debate should be held, which would at least give the proponents of the page an opportunity to bring it up to something approaching encyclopedic content. --FRS 01:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Judeofascism (term) had no contents for most of its existence, but was a redirect to Judeofascism. A couple of people, yourself included, tried to insert or revert to a very short text that was a very badly written, highly POV, personal essay with no sources that violated every content policy we have. I'm surprised you don't remember it, as you were one of its defenders. SlimVirgin 02:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the antecedent for "his" is. Proably you meant "its" as in "FRS was one of the defenders of the article." Well, as said just above, I'm not convinced an article of this title is inherently unsuitable for WP. That doesn't mean I ever defended the content of the article. And as you say yourself several paragraphs up: "AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist." --FRS 03:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
You were defending an article that had no sources, and for which no credible sources could be found, and which was therefore a violation of our policies, which you might care to read one day: WP:NOR and WP:V. You also made no attempt even to clean up the writing, but just reverted to it. Probably not your finest hour. I'm surprised you want to draw people's attention to it. SlimVirgin 03:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Excuuuusse me, but, First, I never "defended the article," I simply reverted those who either blanked out the content or redirected the article to one with completely different content. Moreover, It was ME that put the article up for AfD, which resulted in it being speedily deleted. If it wasn't for my action there'd probably still be a mindless edit war over it as was there for the brief days of its existence. Second, I've only been editing here since early October, so I haven't had too many "hours," fine or otherwise, and (third) I think I read one of "our policies" was not to bite the newbies. I think I also read somewhere that WP is not censored. FRS 04:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted because it is both a neologism and a falsification of logic and truth. It is IMPOSSIBLE that the the religion of the Jews, i.e. Judaism, could be "equated" in any way with Fascism-Nazism. It was in the name of Nazi Fascism that the Holocaust happened and nowhere and at no time in history have the Jews ever done anything like that to their enemies. This is just another clumsy attempt to "blame the victims" for something they have neither believed nor done. IZAK 03:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
With respect, IZAK, there are editors over at Islamofascism (term) making the exact same (flawed) argument about the supposed connection of their religion and fascism. The argument is flawed because the term (at least the neologism Islamfascim that has survived an AfD vote) is not used to imply that the Muslim religion is fascist. It means that some people who hold or purport to hold Islamic views behave in ways similar to fascists. A similar complaint could be made about some Jewish people, I expect, and if the proponents of the article can show that enough (or prominent enough) people use this term, a WP article may be justified. FRS 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And there are credible sources in one case, and not in the other, which means Islamofascism can exist without violating our editorial polices, and Judeofascism cannot. SlimVirgin 03:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Space Station 13

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Space Station 13

I would like to request that your decision to delete the article space_Station_13 be re-thought and considered in a different perspective. First of all a simple page that didn't even use up more than 10kb of space shouldn't have been given so much attention in the first place. The article was put up as an aid for new players; because the game is; as it was made so clear; so small, and didn't have a very useful main website, as the current website was run by a biased host at the time; although that subject is irrelivant. There was no justifiable reason for the deletion of this article other than the 'assumption' that it was put up for advertising purposes and because of snob-nosed encyclopediacs going crazy over such a small-based community. It is a clear sign of the sort of biased administration that is in effect on Misplaced Pages. There is no REAL space station named 'Thirteen' and therefore the space is not required by anything more important. When a space station named 'Thirteen' is launched, the community will gladly give up the space for it.

Furthermore, I'd like at least a valid reason for the article being deleted, or its official re-addition. I'm not going make a threat, but the subject will be re-added constantly by the fan base of over 500 unique members; and is something that the development/administration departments of SS13 cannot control.

Please also note that the recent statement on the discussion for deletiong for SS13 is incorrect. The game is not run by a one-man development team, it is in fact run by a 5-person development team, a 4-person website team, and a 12 person moderation team; and is actually the subject of a 3D game which is in development for the next 2 years.

We're not worried about the space it takes. We're worried about its encyclopedic value. If you think the person who runs the current website is biased, go run your own, but Misplaced Pages is not a webhost. - Mgm| 23:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • 500 members? Whoa! Hold on there LivingWithStyle, Somethingawful and Gaiaonline! You got some pretty damned popular competition! SS13 is not notable enough to be on Misplaced Pages. This is coming from a person who helped the article quite a bit. -Mrdie
  • Endorse deletion. I see no problems with the afd, and threats are unlikely to convince anyone. —Cryptic (talk) 02:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion - I beg to differ with Cryptic. Unconvincing non-threats are definitely going to convince Wikipedians... convince them that the article in question is utter crap that must stay deleted at all costs. FCYTravis 03:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion. The AfD was valid, and if another valid deletion reason is needed, I'd like to point out that Misplaced Pages is not a web hosting service. I'm sure a "non-biased" web hosting service can be found. Web hosting is a very competitive business. One dollar from each of those 500 members should buy you a site for many, many years. If you want the AfD to be overturned, you must provide new information, which you do not seem to have done, with the exception of the size of the development team, which is unlikely to change anyones vote on the original AfD. Turnstep 18:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep deleted. same reasons as yoism only more so.Geni 17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Don't worry, we can protect articles against recreation if it keeps being readded. Titoxd 18:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 25

Blogging Tories

Based on the discussion, I don't see how this deletion can be adequately justified.

1) The editor who nominated the article for deletion and the main advocate for keeping it both agreed that the VfD results should be the same for this article and Progressive Bloggers, the Blogging Tories' "rival" group with roughtly equal membership. Progressive Bloggers survived its (second) VfD the day before this article was deleted.

2) The admin who closed the VfD and deleted the article had personally voted for deletion. While I can't find anything in Misplaced Pages's policies to specifically ban this practice, it does seem rather unbecoming, especially in light of the third point...

3) Most importantly, by my count the vote was 20 delete, 19 keep, and 2 merge. A plurality of one vote can't be considered "consensus" by any stretch of the imagination. (The consensus article suggest a two-thirds majority for VfDs.) There was also no "emerging consensus" by means of pro-keep editors switching to the pro-delete side. This, combined with the "when it doubt, don't delete" rule, definitely means that the article shouldn't have been deleted.

I move for an overturn and undelete. The Invisible Hand 10:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn per above point 2 seems quite convincing AND there was no consensus for deletion (even though I voted delete).  Grue  11:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse and keep deleted. Point 1 is unfortunate but irrelevant; Misplaced Pages is often inconsistent. To point 2, this is one of those things to be avoided because they look improper, not because they are improper - we should not assume that CAF was biased. And point 3 is plainly and entirely wrong, because of the invasion of sockpuppets. After discounting invalid votes, I do get a two-thirds majority for deletion, which means that deletion is a valid call. I propose a redirect to the Canadian Blogscape. Radiant_>|< 14:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Strike vote, convinced by the below. Radiant_>|< 19:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • There were a lot of "delete" sockpuppets too, including some "war on blogs" GNAA trolls.  Grue  14:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, I also discounted those. However, most GNAA members appear to be legit users as well, and the so-called "war on blogs" is not indiscriminate trolling, but an effort to clean out unremarkable blogs (per WP:NOT a web guide). This was discussed at WP:ANI and there was found no reason to do anything about it. If you believe there are problems, please ask Kelly for a sockcheck. Radiant_>|< 14:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I count 9 valid keep votes and 12 delete votes (including GNAA, myself and Cleared as filed). This is nowhere near consensus to delete.  Grue  15:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. While I would have preferred that the closing admin "show their work", after having looked at the arguments presented (see talk page as noted above) there was a clear consensus to delete, and no compelling counter-argument presented. - brenneman 12:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I still don't see any consensus. I believe that consistency is a very good reason for keeping this article and if I had known that Progressive Bloggers would be kept, I'd voted keep instead of delete.  Grue  12:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I've read through all of the comments (taking sock/meat puppetry from both sides into account), and I don't see anything remotely resembling a consensus. —Lifeisunfair 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. No consensus to delete. Rhobite 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete per Lifeisunfair and others. Turnstep 18:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn. I really don't see clear consensus, whether you discount potential meatpuppets or not. In a dubious and complex vote like that one, a voter in the debate should never have done the closing himself. -- SCZenz 19:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The fact that there may "no consensus" based upon pure numbers is mitigated by the fact that this is not a vote. In the absence of back-ups to the "it's notable" arguments, the closing admin has the resposibility to do more than simply count heads. We reject scripts like the "afd helper" because we want nuanced interpretations of the results. That is what we got here. - brenneman 20:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
1. Actually, an AfD debate is a vote (but not a simple majority vote).
2. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not seeing this supposed consensus. In my assessment, neither side's argument was persuasive enough to prevail. If I had to pick one, however, I'd say that the combined "keep" votes were move eloquent than the combined "delete" votes; most of the "delete" voters merely indicated that the group is non-notable, while many of the "keep" voters provided specific reasons why they believe that the group is notable. —Lifeisunfair 21:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, you're misusing the word "vote" to mean "majority vote." The commonness of this misconception was a major (and legitimate) factor in the decision to rename VfD, as was the desire to specify the type of page being discussed.
FYI, American Heritage defines a "vote" as "a formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue." In a slightly different context, a vote is "the act or process of voting," which refers back to the aforementioned definition. (This is the connotation that applies.) —Lifeisunfair 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn deletion and undelete. Grue and The Invisible Hand don't agree on the numbers, but they do agree that the amount of valid keep and delete votes are close together. I can't see how this shows an emerging concensus. And based on point two, I don't see how it would be fair to delete this either. - Mgm| 23:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • My original preference in both debates was to keep, but what I'm more concerned about is that it inherently constitutes a bias-by-inclusion to treat this and Progressive Bloggers differently from each other. Although my personal preference would be to undelete this, I'd be comfortable at this point with either undeleting Blogging Tories or deleting ProgBlog -- but whichever happens, they both have to be treated equivalently; there's simply no valid argument to be made that they fall on opposite sides of the keep-delete line from each other. And I do have to agree that a debate as heavily puppet-infested as this one turned out to be should really not have been closed by an admin who had directly participated in the discussion. Bearcat 01:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. Well, I do seem to have gotten myself into controversy early. Upon reviewing the discussion, I obviously made a mental error; by my count there were 8 legitimate keep votes and 12 legitimate delete votes (in addition to 3 "borderline-legitimate" delete votes which I did not factor in). Somehow, in my notes, this translated to a more than two-thirds preference towards deletion, a number which I cannot fathom how I came up with now. In addition, it didn't occur to me at the time that there would be a problem closing an AFD that I had voted on, and I had no motivation in closing it other than it had been left unclosed for several days past its 5-day period. I now recognize that it is unseemly to decide consensus on a close issue that I had expressed an opinion on, a mistake I won't repeat. I appreciate the good faith that the above comments have assumed about my action, and have no problem with the consensus of the community expressed here. —Cleared as filed. 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Now that the closing admin has acknowledged that the decision was reached in error, I see no reason to prolong this discussion; the article should be undeleted immediately. —Lifeisunfair 05:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'd just like to extend my appeciation to everyone who participated in this debate, especially the closing admin and those who voted for deletion, for taking an objective view of my motion even when it went against your personal views about the article. I'm new to Misplaced Pages editing, and this has done a lot for the stature of the community in my eyes. Thanks, guys. — The Invisible Hand 09:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment on this process. I can only say that I am deeply dissapointed in the outcome of this discussion. Regardless of American Heritage feeling on what constitutes a "vote", by allowing this to be reduced to simple head-counting, we're doing closing admins (and wikipedia in general) a grave disservice. Even on that count, however, this was a clear consesus.
    • If the five editors who claimed B.T. was notable had provided any evidence to back up their claim, then the fourteen who claimed it was not notable would have looked pretty silly.
    • The three editors who said "must keep due to Progressive" were adapting the "how can you delete Foo when you've got Some equally trivial article", and I simply cannot believe that that has somehow become an acceptable argument.
brenneman 12:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
1. My point is that the word "vote" does not necessarily refer to a system in which ballots are simply tallied. That's a specific type of voting (which AfD discussions are not). The word "vote" can refer to "a formal expression of preference for . . . a proposed resolution of an issue" or to the "process" through which such expressions are supplied. This is an accurate description of AfD.
2. I recently participated in a TfD discussion in which a vast majority of voters disagreed with me. Instead of expressing my disappointment that all of them were wrong, I assisted in the consensus-backed modification of a template that I voted to delete. I respectfully suggest that you adopt a similar attitude, given your desire to defer to "a clear consensus" (such as the one above). —Lifeisunfair 16:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, of course you are. Likewise, I'm allowed to say that beating a dead horse is unproductive. —Lifeisunfair 00:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 24

Nixon: Ruin and Recovery 1973-1990

Doesn't appear to meet any speedy criteria. Visible content was: "Nixon;Ruin and recovery is a book by stephen ambrose about richard nixions fall from grace in 1973 and rise back to honor in 1993 and the events in hi..." Kappa 20:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Undelete and list on AfD. Looks like spam, but the speedy rules don't include that. -- SCZenz 21:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Cut the bureaucracy, keep deleted without prejudice. What Kappa just quoted was the entire content (plus the letters "s life between."). Nothing there is worth discussing, but it seems a worthy topic so I hope someone will write about it. Radiant_>|< 14:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above agree with Radiant. A real article could problably be written about this topic, but it would be better starting from scratch than building on an abysmally-written subsubstub ("richard nixions"?!) Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, deleted out of process. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Doesn't look at all like spam to me. Give it fifteen seconds of wikification, spellchecking, and proper punctuation, and it's no better nor worse than many of our other book stubs. If Lucky thinks it needs deleting so badly, let him put it on afd like anyone else. —Cryptic (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Who cares? It would be a lot quicker to re-write a decent stub than to have this debate. --Doc 12:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted with no prejudice to the creation of something substantial in its place. Concur with Doc. - Mgm| 23:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD. Most speedy deletions are good, sometimes someone gets it wrong. No harm in undeleting and listing on AfD. Of course any administrator could do this, we don't need a discussion on it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Rough edges are normal in a wiki. Many admins need a reminder that the proper solution to poor quality stubs where an article is appropriate is to EDIT them. Unfocused 22:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 23

Gallery of Socialist Realism

The AfD discussion, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of Socialist Realism, has been incorrectly closed on two counts:

  1. Only two of the 16 votes were simple delete votes, most of the delete votes were Transwiki and delete, but the closing admin did not make any effort to keep the content available for transwikying;
  2. In the course of the AfD discussion, it became clear that the WP:NOT policy was excluding pictorial content of encyclopediac value. A lengthy discussion there concluded with a change of the policy with respect to collections of images; after the change in the policy, which has met with uniform approval, all the votes were keep votes. Hence, the grounds cited for almost all delete votes ceased to exist at the time the AfD was closed, which the closing admin appears to have been oblivious to.

The page should certainly be undeleted. I think it is clear that the page would win a new AfD, hence, in the interests of avoiding unnecessary bureaucracy, I recommend we do not relist on AfD. --- Charles Stewart 19:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment: see also --- Charles Stewart 19:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Note: The 'lengthy' discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposed rewording totalled 3 votes. Which is insufficient to change a long-standing policy, imo. The discussion preceding the vote (for such it was) included 8 messages in total, between 3 users. -Splash 19:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Another note:I presume some or all of the images hinge on fair use claims. It's been considered for some time that mere collections of images, outside of the article to which they would refer, do not constitute fair use. -Splash 19:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Let be noted that I didn't delete the images and we're not arguing about the image merits, but what I deleted was the gathering and listing. As I suggested, adding a category Category:Socialist Realism would be a better way to gather this entries. Anyway, the content was already merged today into Socialist realism. -- ( drini's vandalproof page ☎ ) 21:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • However, until I merged the content, you orphaned a large number of images, which made them eligible for deletion. If I had not taken the precaution of savivng a copy of the page, it could not have been reconstructed in order to merge. If there was a consensus it was to transwiki and delete, which you did not do. Dsmdgold 21:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. The status of the images is safe, and a transwiki for those that are acceptable in commons would be in ok; that said, although we cannot ensure that they will be accepted there. It does seem more appropriate that this page were a category page in commons, though. Titoxd 21:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Observe Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of illuminated manuscript images whose outcome was keep. --- Charles Stewart 21:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. The attempt to change a long-standing policy during the debate by collecting 3 or 4 'votes' and having 3 users discussing it and then to try here to retroactively apply that policy 'change' to users opinions effected before the change is far too much legalese. I do not consider the policy changed, and will probably reverse it pending a proper discussion: WP:ISNOT a repository of images. A collection of image is not an article. Those who cited WP:NOT in their comments were correct, those who called the policy 'misguided' and opted to keep based on a reverse interpretation of non-existent polic-change were wrong. It is reasonable to dismiss such comments: particularly those like CalJW's. Anyone can copy the PD images to Commons, it does not need a transwiki of the would-be article. In fact, Commons is interested in media not articles as I approx understand it, so the transwiki part of the comments are not important from this perspective: the images are still here. The closing admin got this right, those who forced a policy semi-change during the debate to retroactively apply it afterwards were wrong. -Splash 21:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The closing admin made no effort to indicate that he recognised the issue. I would not have made the criticisms I had of an admin who cited the issue and said the later remarks in the discussion had no bearing on the earlier delete votes. As it was, I regard the closing of the AfD as poorly executed. You have also not indicated what you think of the several AfD's that I pointed to in my previous comment that provided a precedent for the change I made to WP:NOT. --- Charles Stewart 22:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I do not dispute that the images are all still "here". They are for the moment. (However, if I had not merged the gallery, most of them would have been orphans and eventually deleted.). There is value to organization and annoatation of images. By merely deleting the article, without re-creating it elsewhere, the closing admin decreased the amount of knowleddge available to Misplaced Pages. I also find it a bit odd to suggest that a closing admin can ignore comments of editors merely because he or she disagrees with the reasoning of the comment. I also find it distressing that to think that a vote to transwiki has no meaning other than delete. It should be noted that one of those voting transwiki specified that "In any case, make sure we don't just lose this, it's excellent." Dsmdgold 23:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If the closing admin had said the comments were irrelevant to the vote, I would still have taken the matter to DRV and said the AfD , but my criticisms would have been less sharp. I regard admins who ignore unanswered arguments to keep made in AfDs when closing to delete as a menace to WP. The ones who at least observe the existence of these arguments are much less malign, even when they make the same assessment. --- Charles Stewart 00:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've put up another link to the WP:NOT discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Proposed change to WP:NOT, following Brennemann's reversal of the change to WP:NOT I applied. --- Charles Stewart 00:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Upon further inspection, the article isn't encyclopedic, here is the entire content:
This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
A whole bunch of images
See also:

This is exactly what Commons is here for. Reading the comments on the WP:NOT talk page does not leave me very convinced. That said, I don't object to a transwiki to Commons. Titoxd 01:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually the structure of the page was bit more complex than that. It was

This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
Lenin
10 images with captions
Stalin
7 images with captions
Ordinary life
10 images with captions
Scenes of Revolution and War
4 images with captions
Technology
3 images with captions
Propaganda
2 images with captions
Architecture
5 images with captions
Sculpture
8 images with captions
See also:

The gallery had more stucture than you are giving it credit for. Please leave your reasons for being unconvinced at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposal to modify WP:NOT an image gallery, I for one would appreciate a fuller discusion. Also can you point me to the portion of Commons that says part of their mission is to host image galleries for the Wikipedias? I can't find it. Dsmdgold 02:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

MYOB

The page was speedy deleted after a request was put in which stated This page was in error. MYOB is an accounts package, not internet slang as the redirect suggested.. While MYOB is an accounting package (), it is also an abbreviation that is used as an internet slang term. See for example FOLDOC, the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary or any other reference found by OneLook. S.K. 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a disambiguation page at MYOB. I don't think this deletion review is necessary because there was no real content deleted. Rhobite 01:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

November 22

Global Resource Bank

  • I vote for undeletion. The Global Resource Bank is the life-work of scientist John Pozzi. It is a non-profit scientific initiative of developing an ecological world economy. Monika Hoy, Germany (monipeperoni@netscape.net)
  • I would like an undeletion of the article on the Global Resource Bank

VOTE: UNDELETE Global Resource Bank. /Lennart

November 21

Argentina v England (2005)

The AfD debate here shows 8 keeps and 11 deletes, and as such, no consensus for deletion. Since similar articles on cricket matches are routinely kept, I think this one should be undeleted as well.  Grue  13:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn, undelete and redirect to Argentina and England football rivalry since the article is already merged. One thing to note here is that this should not have been merged before the AFD had completely run its course. Nonetheless, from reading the AFD debate I cannot see a consensus to delete the article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/ I make this 13 Delete / 5 Keep / 3 Merge. One of the merge votes explicitly indicated "delete" as a second choice, and so IMO can not be read as a keep vote. The other two comments advocating merge seems not to support the separate existance of this article, one said "Professional sports events happen every day...". Therefore I don't think they can be read as simple keep votes either. I think this is within the closer's judgement to close as a delete. However if soemoen wanted to create a new redirect at this title, that would NOT be "substantially similer" and so not subject to a speedy. The merge should not, IMO, have been done while the debate was in progress, however. DES 16:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I oppose the notion that merges cannot be done while an article has been proposed for deletion. Misplaced Pages's normal editing processes should not be over-ridden in that way. Often, the best way to show how things should be done is to do it. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 03:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree with Matthew. Merging is a a sequence of normal edits, and if these are not good edits, anyone can revert them. There is no need for a rule against merging whilst an AfD is in process. --- Charles Stewart 15:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Actually, things are a little more subtle than that, as pointed out below. If content is merged, then the GFDL requires we keep track of the history. This is most usually done by retaining a redirect where once there was an article. This means that, even in the face of an otherwise overwhelming delete (hypothetically, not in this case), those editors would have been overridden by another. Whether that is reasonable is an open question. There are other ways of (probably) meeting the GFDL in cases like this, such as copying the history to the target's talk page prior to deletion of the source. But I personally consider it good form to recommend a merge during the AfD but wait to see if the consensus is that Misplaced Pages would not retain the content at all. -Splash 17:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Indeed Splash is right, and I retract my comment. It is normally inappropriate to merge content from articles during an AfD. --- Charles Stewart 18:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure/keep deleted - Per DES - Tεxτurε 19:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, improperly closed. No consensus for deletion. Feel free to merge and redirect. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Reasonable judgment call, per DES. --Calton | Talk 03:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Per DES. Merges should not be counted as keeps. Carbonite | Talk 15:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That's blatantly not true, and contradicts the Deletion policy. Also, as this article was merged, GFDL requires that it's history is undeleted.  Grue  16:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • In practice, it just doesn't make sense to count "merges" as "keeps". When I vote to "merge", I don't want an article to exist at that location. If I think the information could be useful in some article, a "merge" vote makes sense. If I wanted my vote counted as a "keep", I would have voted that way. Since your GFDL concerns are legitimate (from what I know about the license) I'd support having it as a redirect. Carbonite | Talk 17:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and make into redirect, per Grue's last point. Sam Vimes 16:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn - as per Grue, deletion appears to consitute violation of GFDL, since it appears the content was merged. Also, since merges count as keeps, there was no consensus to delete. Guettarda 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn -as per Grue. --- Charles Stewart 16:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment What, we can't merge the histories? Even if that is not possible, to avoid violating GFDL all that is required is to copy-paste the history into the talk of the target article. Even more if the information that was merged is widely and commonly available, then the pseron who merged it simply has to go and confirm the facts themselves and do a re-write, and again GFDL is preserved. - brenneman 23:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn per above. NSLE (讨论+extra) 00:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close. Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy says merges are neither deletes nor keeps. However, since it is merged (a situation I don't think anyone minds terribly), something has to be done to satisfy GFDL. As a practical matter, I wouldn't oppose undeleting and redirecting. -- SCZenz 00:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, the Deletion policy says nothing special about how to interpret "merge" comments when closing the discussion. The Guide to deletion, on the other hand, explicitly says that "Merge is a recommendation to keep the article's content but to move it ..." As a practical matter and largely guided by the requirement to maintain GFDL, "merge" opinions are routinely interpreted as a recommendation to "keep" the article history (that is to say, "not delete") even though they are not a recommendation to "keep the article as is". "Merge" is often a very nuanced opinion and can not be easily forced into a binary "keep" vs. "delete" framework. This is a good example of why mere vote-counting is bad. Rossami (talk) 05:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment When I created the Argentina and England football rivalry article, I wrote the "2005 friendly" section from the ground-up, without any material from the existing article, and it has since been worked on and added to independently by other editors. I don't believe there *is* actually any material from that article in it, so I'm not sure how that counts as having been merged. Angmering 12:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. Not sure where the nom got that vote count, but I tally it as 5 keep, 11 delete, 1 delete/merge, 2 merge, and one merge/delete. Even without counting the merges as keeps, that's 12d to 5k, which is not a clear enough consensus. If we count the plain merges, it becomes 12d to 7k. I think the burden is on the merge voters to specify what their fallback position is (as only Reyk seems to have done here) so that their votes are clearly not a keep. Turnstep 18:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Utterly fatuous attempt to delete an article about an international football match. Failed to raise convincing consensus but got deleted anyhow. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn because merge and delete is an illegal operation. (In more ways than one) Kim Bruning 08:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Bronx underground

I would like an undeletion of the article on the Bronx Underground. The reasons for deletion were listed as "blatant self-promotional ad spam/link spam." This is simply untrue. The article was not self-promotional, merely a factual account of a local-interest in the Bronx, detailing one of the Bronx's most popular local music venues, and one of the most successful independent promoters in New York City. There were no opinions or values in the article, just facts. I don't think the reasoning behind this article's deletion is fair. - Mike corsillo 10:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted: The deleted page was Bronx underground. Looking at the deleted version I noted two links to the group's homepage, one link to their web forum, one link to a page containing samples from a soon to be released compilation CD, and zero independent sources to help show that this article might not have been written by a public relations department. While I am not sure that this article actually qualified as a proper speedy delete, I saw nothing in the article to suggest it would stand any chance of surviving an AfD. --Allen3  14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • While we do have links to our homepage and samples from our CD, what more would you ask from a small, independent promotions company. We don't even operate for profit, and do not have a public relations department. As independent sources show up, the article could be edited, but there are currently no publications other than the group's site that offer information on it. That is not to say the group is not well-known, just that it has not been written about. Anyway, if it didn't meet the criteria for speedy deletion, you shouldn't have deleted it.- Mike corsillo 21:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      • That is the very definition of an article that should be soundly deleted by AfD. Misplaced Pages is not a substitute for your public relations department, and if you yourselves are the only source, then, per WP:V, you need to come back again when you are not. Anyone opting to keep this article in a hypothetical future AfD would need to have extraordinarily good reasons for violating two core policies. -Splash 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Special:Undelete/Bronx Underground shows no deleted edit history. What article is this DRV about? --- Charles Stewart 20:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete/Overturn. The article may be an ad but that is not one of the criteria for speedy deletion. Rhobite 20:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Inappropriate speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. The article will just be immediately listed on AfD and deleted anyway, especially since the author has made it perfectly clear that they are trying to use Misplaced Pages as their own private PR firm. User:Zoe| 02:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That was not my intention by any means. I was in no way trying to use Misplaced Pages as a PR firm. We don't need a PR firm. I was just trying to contribute an unbiased article about what the Bronx Underground is. We have absolutely no desire to use this site as a PR firm. Maybe when I said we dont have PR department, I should have said we don't need one. All of our advertising is done by word of mouth. The entry does not give any information about show times or prices or list any of the merch we offer. The only reason it links to the website is because that makes sense. If the article does not survive the AfD, that is fine. But I don't appreciate being shafted based on speculation of its future.
    • I'm not into bureaucracy, but there's something to be said for following existing processes. Are you saying that because the AfD outcome appears to be obvious, we shouldn't even go through the motions? It has happened before that a subject which appeared to be headed for deletion turned out to be notable and turned into a good article. I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just saying we shouldn't deviate from the AfD process on a whim. Rhobite 03:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and list on AfD: invalid speedy, deleted within 3 minutes of creation, article appears non-speediable. Non-speediable articles deserve their hearing on AfD, and the topic looks capable of attracting worthwhile content. Endorsing out of process speedies is not what Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy is about. --- Charles Stewart 15:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and Afd I suppose. Altho I fear the Afd may turn into a fiasco which nicely illustrates everything that's wrong with Afd. Friday (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD, unless someone can point to a proper speedy criterion. If people think there are holes in the speedy process, they should be closed, not created as we go along on this page. -- SCZenz 00:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and afd. It is exactly this kind of invalid speedy that keeps the community from trusting administrators with an "obvious spam" or similar speedy criterion. —Cryptic (talk) 18:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Beer boxing

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Beer boxing

I would like an undeletion of the most recent article on beer boxing. According to the Misplaced Pages:Undeletion_policy#To_request_that_a_page_.28or_image.29_be_restored " The speedy deletion criterion for "reposted content that was deleted according to deletion policy " only applies if the content is "substantially identical" (under any article title) — not if you added a lot of new information." Not only was the latest version of the article completely different from previous versions, but the original reasons for deletion are voided by the very fact that there is even a debate over its deletion. If the game of Beer Boxing is a notable enough drinking game to cause a debate, why is it not notable enough to warrant its own article? Furthermore, it is obvious to all who care to review the vote for deletion that half of the votes are for personal objection to the drinking game itself, rather than the content of the article or noteworthiness of the game. Lastly, should the notableness of the game remain under question, I would like to point out the arbitrariness of that judgement. Beer boxing is definitely as or more notable than many other drinking games listed. Mike corsillo 08:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse deletion, unless nominator can provide sources. - Mgm| 08:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • what sources would you have me provide? all versions of the article have been deleted, but having never read previous versions of the article, the most recent version could not have possibly been identical in content or substance. furthermore, i have no way of proving the notableness of this game, nor any other. similarly, nobody can disprove it, thus qualifying the standards for what is notable as completely arbitrary. My argument speaks for itself. Mike corsillo 10:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      Please see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources for information on the types of sources that are typically looked for to support an article. I did a quick Google search to see if there was anything obvious to help support the article and found nothing but this. Unfortunately the only hit was on a site that accepts anonymous submissions, and is thus disqualified from being used as a source for a Misplaced Pages article. --Allen3  14:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      If there are no other sites where people can look this up, isn't that even more reason for this site to allow information to be provided? I dont understand why an encyclopedia would only offer information that is already offered by other websites. Way to "be bold," everybody. -Mike corsillo 21:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      That is a crucial point. An encyclopedia is a tertiary source. It doens't create information (a primary source), and it doesn't report on the creation (a secondary source). It reports that others have found the information to be accurate and reliable (and encyclopedic). An encyclopedia that reported unsubstantiated material wouldn't be very encyclopedic, would it? It is very clear that you didn't read WP:V. As soon as you do, you will see exactly what is being said here. -Splash 22:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion as per MacGyverMagic. --Allen3  14:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Trollaxor

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Trollaxor

I would like a review of the AFD procedure for this article -- the verdict was no consensus and much of the voting appears suspicious. Not only has the article been deleted before, but it remains non-notable and unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and only remains because of the efforts of a group gaming the AFD system. My solution was to redirect it rather than delete it and try to force someone to take notice... which it least would spare the efforts of future AFDs after it was recreated, and avoid yet more running around in circles cleaning up junk. - Motor (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. You're not wrong to try redirecting—anyone can do that—but it's clear from the article history that it's not gonna fly with the people who disagree with you. At 8-5 to delete (discounting user with 8 edits), you could AfD it again, but I'd personally recommend working out some sort of merge/redirect compromise on the talk page. -- SCZenz 01:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • And Relist. If organized trolls are really the problem, then out-vote them. But I can't see a justification for discounting them—perhaps someone can explain? -- SCZenz 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete almost a speedy. Those voting keep seem to be a part of some organised group of trolls (except Trollderella, who is just an extreme inclusionist).  Grue  13:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
It's an indication of the sorry state that we're in that advocating following policy is 'extremism'. Trollderella 23:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
And what policy would that be? --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, but not because the Afd was done wrong. The closure as a "no consensus" was reasonable, although not what I would have done. Of course, the article could also be speedied right now as a perfectly valid A7. Friday (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    So you don't think that the afd was wrong? It's clearly not a valid CSD, so you're really just saying you disagree with the result. Trollderella 22:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    I suppose that CSD A7 doesn't explicitly say that when it talks about articles making a claim of notability, it pertains to a notion of notability that stems from the community as a whole, rather than the ideas of the particular deleting admin. That seems rather obviously true, however. If the community has just now come to no consensus about whether a subject is notable, it would seem obvious that A7 does not apply. Friday's application of the unilateral admin action model here is probably unwise. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    What application of the "unilateral admin action model"? I didn't delete it, did I? I merely stated an opinion that an A7 could be applied here. But, I'll be clear: the reason I say "overturn and delete" is that Afd produced the wrong answer in this case. I'm not against doing a deletion "in process" either, altho at this point I'm not sure how that's possible. If we start another Afd tomorrow and it's closed as a delete, we'll still have people complaining that the second Afd was invalid because of the previous "no consensus" closure. But, if we want to look at the Afd process, I could say that it was tainted by troll involvement. Of course, this is a judgement call and it's a bit rude to those we're calling trolls, right? Friday (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    By "application of the unilateral admin action model" I meant your statement that the article would be a valid A7 -- to say this implies your belief that an admin can determine that an article doesn't make a claim of notability, even when the sense of the community has been determined (to whatever degree), and the community of users does not agree that there is no such claim. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    What I meant was, someone looking at it could reasonably say "Gosh, writing on websites isn't an assertion of notability". Thus, it's an A7. I'm not going to delete it as an A7 because I know it's being discussed, and deleting it right now would be rude to other editors. Also, I fully realize that other reasonable editors could look at this article and decide it's not an A7 speedy. Friday (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I am disturbed that most of the votes here are based on opinion, rather than process, which is contrary to what Deletion Review is for. I have a few questions that I'd like to see addressed:
    1. Is this really a legitimate speedy delete? It seems that at least a few people think the article contains assertions of notability, at which point WP:CSD A7 says it should go to AfD.
    2. Can editors be discounted merely because of their afilliation with whatever organized trolling group? I see no reason for this.
  • I'm the first person to say this article should be deleted, but I say do it within process. Anyone care to explain why we shouldn't, as is apparently going to happen? -- SCZenz 23:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. The point here is not whether this article should stay or go, that's what AFD is for. It is the attempt to hijack process by a small group who can't accept a community decision. Trollderella 23:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There's irony for you. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm dissapointed by any claims that editor's recommendations should be discounted simply because of who they are. I don't care if someone is a GNAA sleeper admin who is secretly impregnating our life parters to breed an army of child-eating Liberal voters, if they present a coherent assertion we should listen to it. In this instance that was not done, with some simply saying "keep". Thus Overturn and delete because AfD is not a vote, and compelling arguments were not presented. - brenneman 00:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Your argument is sound, up until you make the case that because you don't like the reasons given then the community can be ignored. If you think it should be deleted, list it again and get a concensus. Trollderella 00:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I wasn't aware of the alleged GNAA "trolling" until I was informed about it after I closed the debate, so if the decision is overturned, there won't be any opposition from me. No vote. Robert 00:26, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
We seem to be using the word 'troll' in the sense of 'voting in a way I don't like'. That's disturbing. If you don't like the outcome of AFD, relist, don't try a backdoor to try to work around a community decision. Trollderella 00:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I have no opinion either way. I was merely stating that, before closure, I wasn't aware of what is now being argued by those in favor of overturning. Hence, I didn't vote. Robert 00:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. Motor is right: some of the "Keep" votes on the AfD are highly-suspect, being low-usage accounts set up primarily for voting on AfDs, as careful examination of their contribution history shows. However, this depth of scrutiny cannot be expected from an admin closing an AfD, and even with this additional information it is not obvious whether these dubious "Keep" votes can be legitimately discarded. Robert was right to close this as a no-consensus. If you do decide to re-nominate the article, I hope we'll get enough participation as to make the few sock- or meat-puppets' votes irrelevant. Owen× ☎ 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That is not correct, I'm afraid. The notion that cursorily closing complex AfDs is ok is profoundly wrong. If an admin hasn't the time required to do the job properly, they should steer very well clear of the job. -Splash 21:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. Please respect community decisions and stop accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet. Give proofs or shut up. -- Femmina 16:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • "few sockpuppets" =/= "accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet", no matter how you bend the English language. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Please note that my objections stem from the fact that simply saying "keep" should be discounted by any closing admin, regardless of whom it originates from. It's not a vote. - brenneman 23:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looks like for the GNAA and their War on Blogs, some websites are more equal than others. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looking at the VfD, I see what looks like bloc voting by GNAA members, and no reasoning by the "keep" voters. --Carnildo 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment - I don't think this should be used as an opportunity to vent frustration at editors you don't like. If you disagree with the outcome, re-list it. Trollderella 01:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • If the purported trolls lift their game and put "Keep - per nominator, this author is notable per " than we wouldn't be having this discussion. The quality of the anti-blog nominations they were making went up when prompted, there is no reason that almost anyone can't be molded into a good contributor. brenneman 01:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If deletion policy mentioned 'notability' even once your point might be relevant. If you don't like the result of a community process, re-run it. Trollderella 16:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Forget notability, I don't see how Trollaxor is verifiable, and that IS a policy. There's discussion on the talk page about it. My position is that his own postings do not make him verifiable. Friday (talk) 17:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I would overturn and delete, since it is a valid A7, but since there have been complaints about it, the only course of action that I consider appropriate is a relist with a minimum participation treshhold, like done for GNAA. Titoxd 17:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, discounting obvious role accounts is good practice. Contrary to what OwenX says, such scrutiny is appropriate, and if an AFD closer neglects it, then deletion review is appropriate. Radiant_>|< 18:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete in accordance with the reasoning advanced by Radiant! and Aaron Brenneman, particularly Aaron Brenneman's. Plus, as I see it, even if there was no consensus to delete, there was a consensus (Motor, Starblind, and Friday in explicit agreement with several others in implied agreement, and only Skrewler in explicit disagreement) that it constituted vanity, which overrides the consensus. Plus, I see a more clearly articulated consensus that the subject matter is unnoteworthy, and interpretations of de jure policy notwithstanding (I, for instance, believe WP:NOT and the deletion policy both explicitly establish non-notability as grounds for deletion), it's de facto part of the deletion policy. In all, I believe a consensus was reached, and that consensus was for deletion. The Literate Engineer 01:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse as the AfD was valid, and no new information has been presented. Although some of the accounts were young, none were created after the AfD as far as I can tell. This is a very close call however, and while we should respect the closing admin's decision, I would strongly recommend an immediate relisting. Turnstep 19:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

November 20

Joseph Vargo and Nox Arcana

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph Vargo

Please review facts, dates, publishing credits, and Google and/or Amazon search on the discussion page, and relist these articles. I had provided dates and specific publications where these artists were mentioned, press runs of said publications, television shows, qty of books and/or CDs sold, etc. (all in keeping with the guidelines for notability), then later edited content to focus more on facts as some editors seemed to think a biography is a vanity thing. None of the editors seems to have even looked at that info before deleting the entire page (one mistook a band's website for a store when it is not, though a musical group is certainly allowed to sell thier own music). Ideally, I'd like my original content relisted from 10:26, 4 November 2005. Once relisted, I intend to add the dates and specific references from discussion under a separate heading on that main page. And... I am totally new to this maze. But am learning. I've made a few scant contributions to other pages while a non-registered user (this was before I learned that my username was not coming up, or how to sign off :)Blooferlady 00:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted, valid AfD, and the originator (the editor above) should not be rewarded for having vandalized the AfD page. User:Zoe| 03:00, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Both are copyvios from and . (In fact, the first chunk of Nox Arcanal isn't on either of those links, but the rest is and the first chunk is blatantly taken from somewhere on the site). To admins: note that Joseph Vargo has been constructed in a slightly different order and changes a few words, but is overwhelmingly an infringement: it even repeats the spelling mistake in "influencial". Now, there is a confusing release of sorts in those links: "permission to reprint biographies is hereby granted to press and public forums...Copyright © 1991-2005 Monolith Graphics. All rights reserved." That's not good enough for Misplaced Pages, since its content can be reused by anyone for any purpose, and that is effectively a "with conditions" release that is directly incompatible with the GFDL. Now, Talk:Joseph Vargo claims to have permission, but I don't see any point following that up if AfD has already deleted the articles. -Splash 17:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Validly deleted in process. I wasn't going to comment here since I listed it for deletion, but Blooferlady, who claims to be Vargo, has already re-created Joseph Vargo both on his user page and at least once in the main namespace and is demanding that I undelete. —Cryptic (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Blooferlady here to request the deletion be revoked and to state some inaccuracies in regards to Cryptic's comments. Firstly, I am not Vargo himself. He doesn't even own a computer (read the bio, why don'tcha!). I am Christine Filipak, his partner, webmaster, and business manager. I have known him for 17 years and have been privy to everything stated in his bio, the majority of which was written by ME, then I asked Joseph Iorillo (Vargo's official biographer, who has known him for 20 years and who wrote the bio for the art book) to help me redraft a better, more factual version of the bio. Iorillo helped to clean up my earlier draft, using a good portion of what he already provided for the art book (which is copyrighted and registered by yours truly). I also researched the dates of various publications and appearances from actual signed contracts between Vargo and the various broadcast companies and/or publishers. So all of your prior complaints of copyright infringement are baseless. Believe me, if there was any copyright infringement happening, I also have Power of Attorney for Vargo and would take immediate action. (NOTE: It is equally an infringement of copyright to deny an author of a particular work to claim that authorship). Cryptic, I ask you just WHO would be an acceptable biographer, some fan who never met this artist?
    • Yes, actually, that would be better. That person would go and do their research, find reliable sources to cite and not fall foul of anything in WP:AUTO. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Whether you are Vargo or his business partner isn't particularly relevant, as you still have a direct financial interest in promoting him. I note that you have exactly zero edits to Misplaced Pages, either under your username or editing anonymously, that are not related to Vargo, his company, or his bands. Furthermore, as several of those commenting below are insiting on commenting on the content, rather than the deletion process as WP:DRV demands, it should be pointed out that all of the music and nearly all of the publications on the page's current incarnation are self-published; and that we have a bit of jargon on Misplaced Pages for those who cite their personal experiences and own work: original research. —Cryptic (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have provided my email in earlier discussions to all the editors (Cryptic, you included). I never once DEMANDED anything of you, so don't go putting that spin on things. I was totally new to this site before two weeks ago, and was not aware of the deletion process until the page was actually removed. I was instructed by two other editors to "move" the revised page back into place from my User Page after they both agreed to the revisions. Check the discussions at and on my own talk page
  • As to notoriety, the Wiki guidelines state very plainly what criteria must be met, and I have provided all the information required. Likewise, the simple Google search criteria has been met (and exceeded.) If you cannot see that this is a valid article, then I have about 20 other articles I would like to submit for deletion based on the same reasons that Cryptic has provided. Blooferlady 15:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • undelete - It looks to me like Vargo is sufficiently notable to be included. If copyright paperwork is necessary it sounds like it will be forthcoming. Language that is overly promotional for an encyclopedia can be corrected in the normal course of editing; Any original research likewise. Tom Harrison 16:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete - As per Tom Harrison. Creator has shown willingness to work within Wiki-standards, cut out POV where identified, et cetera. Should assume good faith that questions about copyright status will be addressed. --CBD C 16:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I observe of course that Blooferlady has been spamming talk pages, mine included, about this debate. My opinion stands. AfD deleted this, and no new information is available now that was not available then. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Whilst my previous statement is true, I get the impression from hypothetically constructing an AfD nomination of my own that there may be elements of at least Joseph Vargo's biography that could cause debate at AfD — a debate probably obscured by the outright vanity of the previous article. Nox Arcana really aren't very interesting except for the association with Vargo; they should probably only be mentioned within his article. Given that, a re-run of the AfD on a newly written article might make sense. If Blooferlady really wants it, the previous one can be undeleted and re-AfD'd but it was pretty sickly and would deserve re-deletion. I'm not interested in the copyright questions, since the tone of the article was the tone of a promotional website and there is no question that such is not what we want. Allow recreation and then AfD it. If as suggested above, Blooferlady plans to operate with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, then the AfD may be worthwhile. -Splash 17:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Splash: Spamming was never intended. It was stated by Cryptic that no one had voted to undelete HERE in this discussion, though they had approved the revised article in other discussion. Mr. Harrison also suggested that when leaving comments in talk pages to alert the user that a comment had been posted. I simply wanted to point out that this seems to be where the vote is counted. I still don't know what Afd means. Look, if it's all that big of a deal, just forget it. I'll just go and submit a deletion for everything I have contributed, including Joseph's earlier band project 1. Blooferlady 01:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • People often try to browbeat people into participating partisanly in (un)deletion debates — it generally meets with a chilly reception, and I'm sorry you were guided otherwise. You appear to have learnt what AfD is, though. I don't honestly know why you've suddenly blanked everyhting and now want everything deleted: at least two of us here (me and Zoe below) have said that, if you write the articles neutrally and factually they can be recreated (but possibly subject to an AfD). FWIW, I don't think the new version of Nox Arcana meets the WP:NPOV requirement because it is just your opinion that they write haunting music. Find some reliable media source agreeing with you and cite it, would be a good way to start. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Despite Blooferlady's spamming of my Talk page, I stand by my vote above. The AfD was valid. If she wants to rewrite the articles to make them follow WP:BIO and WP:VAIN, and they do so, then I have no objections to their being recreated. BTW, Blooferlady, as a Dracula fan and a fan of vampire lit in general, I love your User name. User:Zoe| 01:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I've put this section back in, since it was removed and replaced with a {db} tag, and a rather annoyed sounding message about wanting to withdraw the request. I just wanted to point out that Nox Arcana is blue again — if anyone wants to anything about it. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I'm learning and was really frustrated, still am a bit. This place is a maze of talk pages. Thanks for the compliment on my user name. I was surprised it was not already taken. Anyway, I really ripped apart my articles, deleting anything other than style description and publishing credits, and therefore I wanted to dump all the old discussion and begin anew. Guess that isn't happening. As for "haunting"... If I quote sources (such as reviews which refer to the music as "haunting") then I'll get slammed for that. If I try to describe the theme, I get slammed. If you want me to cite a source HERE (not on the article page), then I suppose would be the most well known source. The term haunting is universal, as in haunted houses, which uses the term "fightening" in it's description. Haunting is a subtler version of frightening as are creepy, eerie, unsettling, etc. As to another doing their own research, that's fine, and I leave the list of sources to anyone who wishes to dig deeper. The whole reason I began this little quest is because I was alerted to a page that was started which held inaccuracies. I admit that I got carried away in trying to account for everything, but now, I guess I'd prefer that his bio be vague than have it be incorrect. Too much has already been printed that is vague and I thought it would help to be clear and exact in detail.

United Bimmer

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United Bimmer

Would it be possible to undelete this article? It was created by a member to explain the history and foundation of our community. It's a very tight-knit group of members, and this article has been referenced many times explaining people who we are and where we came from. There's no advertising in here, as it's simply informative about the history of an organization, which I feel is appropriate in an Encyclopedia.

  • Endorse clsoe (keep deleted). The AfD looks valid, and being a "tight-knit group" if anything suggests lack of intest to thsoe outsiede the group. wikipedia is not a free hosting service, an article describing the group for the benefit of those interested in jopining properly belongs on your own web site. I see no independent sources cited in the article, and no indication that it is in any way notable to anyoen outside the group. If you have such info, create a new article which cites it and expalins how the gorup is significant to those who are not members. DES 17:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted valid (and unanimous) AfD! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

contingent work

Can we undelete this article? There doesn't appear to be any valid reason for its deletion. Sure, the name of the article is something of a neologism, but one which is frequently used when discussing social issues, comparing contingent work with proper jobs.

We do have an article about McJobs, which is also a neologism, and admittedly the two subjects have a fair bit of common ground. However, a serious commentator on employment policy wouldn't use the term McJobs. I think there is enough ground for them to be two separate articles.

To be honest, I don't understand why Misplaced Pages doesn't want people to know what contingent work is, and the history behind it. Squashy 10:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

To put this into context: Contingent work was the subject of a VfD in July 2005, and the result was its deletion. Squashy created a new article, which I deleted, explaining to him the reasons. He then recreated it, as well as asking for it to be undeleted here. Let's assume that that that was a mistake of some kind; still, the proper thing for him to do now is to follow the prescribed course. I did advise him to take it to Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:45, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist. The majority of the comments in the original AfD debate labeled the initially deleted version of the article as an essay or original research, with the minority opinion claiming the article was savable but needed to go through cleanup. Squashy's new version appears to be a complete rewrite that does not suffer from the original's problem of being a personal essay. As such, I do not believe that a speedy deletion as recreation of previously deleted material is justified. --Allen3  12:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete -- invalid speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist". Don't recreate without good reason, a re-write is good reason.Voice of All 14:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the comments so far. I appreciate that the article I've written is far from perfect - and I haven't cited any sources yet - however, the majority of the votes in favour of its deletion were concerned with its content - that it was a personal essay - and not due to any inherent flaw in having an article on the subject in the first place. I appreciate that it's a neologism - but then again, so are many of the articles at Category:Neologisms - that's not a good enough reason to keep it deleted, in my opinion. I have created this article from scratch, without having access to the original article which was deleted before it - however, I have lost some of my most recent edits to it. Thanks. Squashy 15:31, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn the speedy deletion. The first deletion was in order as deletion of a personal essay (and, in my opinion, probably copyvio). The versions created beginning on 15 Nov 2005 were not substantially similar content. The speedy delete criterion should not have applied. As for the most recent version, I see no reason to immediately list it for AFD. It's a new article that still needs cleanup but that's normal. The topic is certainly relevant and encyclopedic since a number of reputable articles have links to it. Rossami (talk) 16:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The consensus seems clear, so I've undeleted the article, But I'm not sure if a relist is appropriate, so I'll leave that still under consideration. Titoxd 21:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


Hellogoodbye

Can we please get this undeleted? The page is now redirected to a Beatles song, which is just incorrect. The original page was deleted. At the RFD debate, it was claimed it didn't meet WP:MUSIC. This is untrue, however, the band has "gone on ... a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country", that country being the US (see hellogoodbye's site ), and has been "prominently featured in any major music media" (receiving plenty of press coverage including and their video on MTV). Whatsmore, there are over 300,000 hits on Google and they are signed to a major label (Drivethru Records). Additionally, they've only released an EP and a DVD: not quite the 2 albums suggested, but not far off. Halo 12:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

November 19

CrystalCherry

Needs to be returned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs) 06:06, 2005 November 19 (UTC)

Why? --Nlu 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Brian Peppers

The page is protected, and, judging from the talk page, it looks like there is significant support for unprotection. zellin t / c 03:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

AFD discussion - note: this link also covers several subsequent discussions. Apparently, the discussion was twice improperly restarted on the same page rather than creating new discussion pages.
  • Strong oppose. The same reasons why it doesn't belong still exist, however. The fact that we have "significant support for unprotection" (almost all of it from anonymous IPs) doesn't mean that it should be undeleted. It will be a magnet for vandalism, and there is no way to do it tastefully. Misplaced Pages does not have to go with the flow of the Internet on this. --Nlu 03:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse the original deletion and the subsequent speedy-deletion as re-created content. This "article" has no place in Misplaced Pages. Looking at the pervasive history of vandalism through the page history, I also endorse the protection of the page to prevent re-creation. Rossami (talk) 06:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted valid VfD. Also, some topics just plain aren't encyclopedic. Peppers did something naughty. Nobody seems to know the exact nature of his crime, but it couldn't possibly have been anything earth-shattering, since he only got 30 days for it. He also happens to have some sort of condition or physical deformity. That's it. Fails WP:BIO by a wide margin. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD. BDAbramson T 16:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy. Vandalism is specifically listed as a Problem that does not require deletion. WP:BIO is not an official policy. If it was, we would have a lot less articles now. There certainly is a way to do it tastefully! The reason why many feel he deserves an article is not because he is a minor sex offender and not even because he has a minor deformity but because he is an internet phenomenon. He is certainly notable enough for Misplaced Pages on those grounds. zellin t / c 17:03, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - This alleged "Internet phenomenon" fails to live up to the standards of "It's a trap!" or "All your base" or whatever. "Brian Peppers" gets just 26,900 Google hits. Compare "All your base" scoring nearly 1 million. Misplaced Pages is not a repository for anything anyone ever laughed at on a forum. I expect alleged Internet phenomena to display an above-average level of interest to be worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages. FCYTravis 17:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, per FCYTravis.--Sean|Black 21:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Not every "internet phenomenon" is worth documenting in an encyclopedia, as I've already argued on the talk page. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-19 21:53:10Z
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Process-wise, it is a valid deletion/protection against recreation, and content-wise, please, it is an attack page/non-notable bio. Titoxd 21:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Making fun of someone for looking bizarre is NOT encyclopaedic. The 30-day jail sentence is just a red herring; are you listing all the other non-notable sex offenders who received a minor 30-day sentence? Also, by the wording, simply touching a person on the thigh could constitute a "sex offense." I'm not endorsing this person, just saying that the only reason this became a minor internet phenomenon is because of what this person looks likeRyoung122 23:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: The deleted content is being effectively re-created in the article's Talk page. It is unusual to re-delete an article's Talk page especially since the "protected" template explicitly says "talk about it there" but it may be appropriate in this case to clean out and protect the Talk page as well. Rossami (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: It is obvious that this is a lost cause but I just want to point out:
To the people who said he served a 30-day sentence and is thus not notable, no one would argue he is notable on those grounds. He is notable because he is an internet phenomenon.
And, sure, it is not up to All your base but is Sealand up to China? Of course not but the fact that we have such a comprehensive article on Sealand is part of the reason why Misplaced Pages is so great. zellin t / c 17:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Fúsíjama Basketball Club International

This was a infopage about my basketball team in Iceland. Not quite sure why it was deleted but if someone thinks this was just a ego boost or something, this basketball team played in the 2nd league in the Icelandic division. Please undelete :) Einzi

No article by that exact title was ever created or deleted. Could you perhaps have mistyped the title? Rossami (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Could be .. chanced the name to a right title ( I hope ) Einzi 11:24, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
Thank you. and AFD discussion
  • Undelete and list on AfD - I vote for this page to be undelated. The info found on the page was historicly accurate and not meant to be an ego boost in any way. --- Sturlast 11:48, 19 November 2005
  • Endorse Hm. Valid AfD at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Fúsíjama_Basketball_Club_International, and though the team claims to be playing in the 2nd division (third level) of Icelandic basketball , I can find no evidence of that at the neutral source here: (or maybe it's me not understanding Icelandic properly). Overturn and relist. New information brought to light. Sam Vimes 13:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Allthough the name Fúsíjama can't be found we played under the flags of Reynir Hnífsdal to avoid troubleling paperwork and expenses. Einzi 15:09, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Have to agree with Sam Vimes. In general, amateur sports clubs are not considered to be valid topics, you almost need to either be, or been, in the top league to be considered unless the sport is really major in that country. The premier league basketball clubs in Iceland are OK topics, amateur clubs are just to numerous. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete The team played in the Icelandic 2nd division from 1999-2005 . The team is registered under the name Reynir Hnífsdal, as the Icelandic Sport Federation does not allow teams to compete under foreign names in domestic leagues. It was however widly recognised under the name Fúsíjama as can been seen here on KKÍ´s homepage (KKÍ is the Icelandic Basketball Federation). The reason for the deletion is said to be that it could not be confirmed that Fúsíjama actually played in official divsion, I belive that should be comfirmed now. Also I disgree with that only major clubs should be allowed on Misplaced Pages. The goal of Misplaced Pages is to create, among others, the largest encyclopedia in history in both breadth and depth. Discriminating official sport teams because they haven´t reached the top level of their country´s competition, and even if they are a fairly well known team in their country, is by my opinion at least, not in the spirit of that goal. Sturlast 18:57, 19 November 2005 (GMT).
    • Fair point. At least that's new, verifiable information, and the judgment of whether that is notable enough for WP should be done at AfD, not here. I would suggest you rewrote it, though, because from what I could gather from the AfD nomination the content was violating NPOV Sam Vimes 19:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

November 14

Category:Soviet spies

Was not deleted and split due to lack of consensus on CfD. This fact is immaterial, as the category is hopelessly POV, and the community is not empowered to vote away NPOV rules. Phil Sandifer 06:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Edit: I'm saying that the category should be deleted or split regardless of supposed consensus or lack thereof, because it is in flat violation of existing policy, and a CfD vote cannot overrule NPOV. Phil Sandifer 07:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I'm confused: what's being asked here? --Calton | Talk 07:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that Snowspinner is requesting a review of the closing of the CfD vote based on a supposed lack of consensus, because the category is inherently based on a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. The category includes individuals who have not been convicted of or even charged with spying, such as Harry Magdoff. As it was pointed out in the CfD discussion, the existence of this category puts Wikipeida at risk for a defamation suit. 172 07:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I thought this page was for review of stuff that's been deleted already, not a second shot at AfD or CfD.
      • In any case, I suggest being bold:
      • There's more than one way to skin an NPOV cat, as it were. --Calton | Talk 07:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Yes, however when clear evidence that something is not NPOV has been provided, it has to go, and no amount of foot-stamping can make a difference. I would have simply been bold, but I'm tired of the backbiting that ensues when one is bold in ways that people disagree with. Phil Sandifer 07:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Shrug. Like the Nike slogan goes, Just Do It. Like I said, if the supporters want the category, they have to use it properly (make bed, lie in it, etc) instead of using it as a kind of McCarthyite club to beat their opponents with. BTW, I went ahead and created Category:Accused Soviet spies: I'd populate it immediately, but I gotta go now. --Calton | Talk 08:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This page isn't just for review of what's deleted; it is for reviewing any decision related to deletion. So yes, a close-as-no-consensus is reviewable, especially if the object to be deleted is in violation of one of our core policies. But here the problem doesn't seem to be the existence of the cat, but the fact that it's used wrongly. I'd say a viable solution would be to rename the cat to Category:Alleged Soviet spies and put in a cat redir, then add a cat Category:Convicted Soviet spies. Radiant_>|< 10:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As usual, Radiant is correct. Great idea! Xoloz 19:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close do not delete or rename out of process. While snowspinner is correct that a consensus on CfD cannot over-ride the NPOV policy, the question of whether this category is inherently PoV, or is simply being used in a PoV way, or indeeed is neither, is a factual question, properly to be determind by the specific consensus in a CfD discussion. This should remain until theere is a consensus to rename or delete it. I woudl advise submitting a new ans separate CfD nomination aimed specifically at a rename as a first step towards User:Radiant's solution. Remember that unlike articels, categorys are only suppsoed to be renamed by consensus, and that CfD handles renames as well as deletions. If anyone incorrectly applies "Be Bold" to this non-editing action, and renames or deletes this category unilaterally, the action should be summeraily reversed and the actor admonished at a minimum. DES 20:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • In the case of a contentious topic and what it would be understatement to call "serious questions" about the fairness of the trials and judicial system on, I think the POV questions are pretty clear cut. Phil Sandifer 00:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, moving of categories is handled at CfD, but that's largely only a convenience as far as I know. Moving articles to a different category is an editing action, and can be done at any time by anyone who thinks it improves the Wiki. All the stuff in this category needs to be fixed regardless of the AfD result, and be bold clearly applies. -- SCZenz 02:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I've gone ahead and been bold in recategorizing several people for whom there is no evidence of an admission of espionage or a conviction for an espionage-related crime. FCYTravis 01:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Mazel tov. Each of the articles is watched by a contingent of editors with a quite a strong ideological bent. If bets were being taken on Misplaced Pages, I'd place a pretty large sum on your efforts at recategorizing some of the individuals getting reverted in no less than 12 hours. 172 01:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
      • What, to me, is really ugly, are all the people pages named "John Doe (spy)" - that's just a flat-out accusation in the very page title. FCYTravis 02:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
        • I've done some recategorizing myself, and Lord, it's a mess: I can see why Snowspinner was bothered by this. Many of the ones I've come across are so blatantly POV, like the one that began, Samuel Dickstein (5 February 1885 - 22 April 1954) was a Democratic Congressional Representative from New York, a New York State Supreme Court Justice, and spy for the Soviet Union, whose only proof or backing was "The VENONA Project says so."
        • Click around on articles from Category:Soviet spies and you'll find far worse examples, substubs beginning with the form "NAME graduated from UNIVERSITY. In 19XX, he worked for AGENCY, and was a Soviet spy"; they usually contain little actual biographical detail (missing things such as, you know, YEAR of birth or death, actual life accomplishments or jobs, legal entanglements or verdicts, etc.); nothing except "SPY SPY SPY says the Venona Project".
        • And if the cats get reverted; well, the reverters with strong ideological bent wouldn't have a policy leg to stand on, since NPOV trumps their ideology every time. --Calton | Talk 02:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus: As DES said, there is no POV violation in the existence of the category, only in the part of the pages that includes them in the category. Good for FCYTRavis in fixing. The CfD discussion (which had no delete votes besides the proposer, only keep and rename votes) has a suggestion by User:TJive to start the category Category:Americans named in VENONA, which seems appropriate here. --- Charles Stewart 19:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Recently concluded

  1. Megan racing: kept deleted
  2. Mimi Yu: kept deleted, no prejudice against recreation if sources are given
  3. Body parts slang: kept deleted
  4. Bananas come from Pluto: kept deleted
  5. Rules of Make Believe: kept deleted
  6. Innovism: kept deleted
  7. Leeroy Jenkins: kept redirected, since after a lengthy discussion there was no majority, let alone a consensus, to overturn.
  8. Yoism: kept deleted
  9. Fuckfrance: kept deleted.
  10. GnuFU: undeleted, pending transwiki to Wikibooks.
  11. Niki Ashton: speedy undeleted and posted at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Niki Ashton.
  12. Nayla bint Farasa: kept deleted
  13. Regret: speedy undeleted, not posted AFD; G4 speedy was invalid, as article was entirely different from the originally deleted one
  14. William Renner: kept deleted
  15. Diary-X: undeleted, posted at AFD: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Diary-X 2

This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators. Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Content review

Editors who wish to see the content of a deleted article may place a request here. They may wish to use that content elsewhere, for example. Alternatively, they may suspect that an article has been wrongly deleted, but are unable to tell without seeing what exactly was deleted. As a subset of this, sometimes an article which is appropriate for a sister site is deleted without being properly transwikied. If the page is undeleted temporarily, it can be exported complete with history using Special:Export, and then redeleted. This will be especially useful once the import feature is completed.

November 28, 2005

Church of Reality

What happened to the discussion? I started a short stub on Marcperkel's user page. I think the article should be moved there. After a few weeks of editing to make the article up to Misplaced Pages standards it should be re-examined here to see if it is "notable" enough to be put into Misplaced Pages on its own. I happened to be reading Marc Perkel's blog a few years ago when the CoR started (online) and got interested enough to subscribe to the mailing list. I do think that the CoR deserves some recognition on Misplaced Pages, but the version of the article that Marc is trying to put up is too PoV and biased. I would like to be able to edit his version to make it more encyclopediotic (sp?). Marc does need to tone down the whole persecution thing tho... I think keeping the article on his user page for the time being is a good compromise and will help make this discussion productive rather than destructive (Marc pointing his mailing list to people's talk pages). Paul 18:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • What happened to this discussion is that it was the victim of a revert war. See the history of this page if you want to peruse it. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of starting an article as a subpage of somebody else's user page, but I think you may be onto a reasonable idea. If you spend some time writing a good article someplace outside of the normal Misplaced Pages article space, and then come back to WP:DRV with a proposal to restore it, we could then have a rational discussion about the merits of the article. But, be forewarned that after the nastyness that has raged here for the past day or so, you have an uphill battle in front of you. In order to gain consensus that the article should be restored with your new contents, you will need to demonstrate that it meets the Misplaced Pages requirements not only for neutral point of view but also for verifiability, etc (see Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not for more details). I personally suspect it will be difficult to do that, but you are welcome to make the effort. If you do it in a calm and rational manner, it will receive fair consideration (which is not to promise that it will turn out with the result you seek). --RoySmith 19:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. I came in on the tail end of this discussion, but I assume Marc will be okay with this compromise for the time being. I haven't actually spoken to him about the matter. I understand that there is no guarantee that the article belongs in Misplaced Pages, but I do think it is notable enough to be included. However, the present article is way too PoV to even have a rational discussion about it. This all depends on how much Marc is willing to work to make the article comply with the Misplaced Pages conventions. I have to run to a class now so I won't be able to respond, but thanks for the somewhat positive response, I just hope Marc actually reads it. Paul 19:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree... while Marc is to be commended for putting together the whole COR concept and generating a LOT of truly interesting content, I understand that you just can't demand inclusion in Misplaced Pages based on the passion of the adherents. And I also agree that this is not religious persecution, but rather the way that Misplaced Pages works. On the other hand, Cory Doctorow thought enough of COR to mention it on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/20/church_of_reality_is.htmlMike 20:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 27, 2005

Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term)

I would like to see the content of deleted articles Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term) in order to assess the merits of (1) undeleting the latter, more recent article and (2) assessing to what extent the AfD arguments in favor of deleting the former article are applicable to the latter. TIA, --FRS 01:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

FRS knows what the contents were, as he was one of the people reverting to those contents. (They were "redirect" for most of its life, and briefly a badly written, unintelligent, completely unsourced, POV personal essay, which violated all our editorial policies. He also knows that when voting to delete or undelete, the contents are irrelevant, because it's the topic that's being voted on. Asking for this to be undeleted before the vote is over is just an attempt to cause trouble. SlimVirgin 03:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I have no idea what the content of the older article was because I started contributing here long after it was AfD'd, and I object to SVs unjustified smear of my motives. FRS 04:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is unneccessary Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism shows that the article was almosty unanimously deleted as a non-notable neologism. Any argument for undeletion, or for a new article by this name, would not depend on the contents of the article, but on establishing, by fresh evidence, that the term itself was notable. Go, construct a case on the talk page - if you can make one (which I doubt) then request undeletion. The issue in question is not the article's content, but whether this term merits an article.--Doc 13:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I wouldn't mind seeing Judeofascism revived as a vprotected redirect to List of political epithets. I thought at one time that it might be able to stand as an article in its own right, but after thorough review, I have been unable to find a single solitary noteworthy person who uses the term. I couldn't even find it in use by such rabid antisemites like the marginally noteworthy Alex Linder. Tomer 07:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I would mind. And I would mind the creation of an article entitled "The 9/11 Attacks Were A Jewish Plot" no matter where it redirected. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
That pretty obviously goes to Conspiracy theory. :-p Tomer 19:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, following Doc's instructions, I've added material to the Talk page on why this article should have a fresh AfD vote. FRS 20:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

History only undeletion

History only undeletions can be performed without needing a vote on this page. For example, suppose someone writes a biased article on Fred Flintstone, it is deleted, and subsequently someone else writes a decent article on Fred Flintstone. The original, biased article can be undeleted, in which case it will merely sit in the page history of the Fred Flintstone article, causing no harm. Please do not do this in the case of copyright violations.


Decisions to be reviewed

Template loop detected: Misplaced Pages:Votes for undeletion/Vfu header This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators. Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Content review

Editors who wish to see the content of a deleted article may place a request here. They may wish to use that content elsewhere, for example. Alternatively, they may suspect that an article has been wrongly deleted, but are unable to tell without seeing what exactly was deleted. As a subset of this, sometimes an article which is appropriate for a sister site is deleted without being properly transwikied. If the page is undeleted temporarily, it can be exported complete with history using Special:Export, and then redeleted. This will be especially useful once the import feature is completed.

November 28, 2005

Church of Reality

What happened to the discussion? I started a short stub on Marcperkel's user page. I think the article should be moved there. After a few weeks of editing to make the article up to Misplaced Pages standards it should be re-examined here to see if it is "notable" enough to be put into Misplaced Pages on its own. I happened to be reading Marc Perkel's blog a few years ago when the CoR started (online) and got interested enough to subscribe to the mailing list. I do think that the CoR deserves some recognition on Misplaced Pages, but the version of the article that Marc is trying to put up is too PoV and biased. I would like to be able to edit his version to make it more encyclopediotic (sp?). Marc does need to tone down the whole persecution thing tho... I think keeping the article on his user page for the time being is a good compromise and will help make this discussion productive rather than destructive (Marc pointing his mailing list to people's talk pages). Paul 18:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • What happened to this discussion is that it was the victim of a revert war. See the history of this page if you want to peruse it. I'm not sure I agree with the idea of starting an article as a subpage of somebody else's user page, but I think you may be onto a reasonable idea. If you spend some time writing a good article someplace outside of the normal Misplaced Pages article space, and then come back to WP:DRV with a proposal to restore it, we could then have a rational discussion about the merits of the article. But, be forewarned that after the nastyness that has raged here for the past day or so, you have an uphill battle in front of you. In order to gain consensus that the article should be restored with your new contents, you will need to demonstrate that it meets the Misplaced Pages requirements not only for neutral point of view but also for verifiability, etc (see Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not for more details). I personally suspect it will be difficult to do that, but you are welcome to make the effort. If you do it in a calm and rational manner, it will receive fair consideration (which is not to promise that it will turn out with the result you seek). --RoySmith 19:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. I came in on the tail end of this discussion, but I assume Marc will be okay with this compromise for the time being. I haven't actually spoken to him about the matter. I understand that there is no guarantee that the article belongs in Misplaced Pages, but I do think it is notable enough to be included. However, the present article is way too PoV to even have a rational discussion about it. This all depends on how much Marc is willing to work to make the article comply with the Misplaced Pages conventions. I have to run to a class now so I won't be able to respond, but thanks for the somewhat positive response, I just hope Marc actually reads it. Paul 19:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree... while Marc is to be commended for putting together the whole COR concept and generating a LOT of truly interesting content, I understand that you just can't demand inclusion in Misplaced Pages based on the passion of the adherents. And I also agree that this is not religious persecution, but rather the way that Misplaced Pages works. On the other hand, Cory Doctorow thought enough of COR to mention it on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/20/church_of_reality_is.htmlMike 20:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 27, 2005

Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term)

I would like to see the content of deleted articles Judeofascism and Judeofascism (term) in order to assess the merits of (1) undeleting the latter, more recent article and (2) assessing to what extent the AfD arguments in favor of deleting the former article are applicable to the latter. TIA, --FRS 01:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

FRS knows what the contents were, as he was one of the people reverting to those contents. (They were "redirect" for most of its life, and briefly a badly written, unintelligent, completely unsourced, POV personal essay, which violated all our editorial policies. He also knows that when voting to delete or undelete, the contents are irrelevant, because it's the topic that's being voted on. Asking for this to be undeleted before the vote is over is just an attempt to cause trouble. SlimVirgin 03:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I have no idea what the content of the older article was because I started contributing here long after it was AfD'd, and I object to SVs unjustified smear of my motives. FRS 04:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is unneccessary Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism shows that the article was almosty unanimously deleted as a non-notable neologism. Any argument for undeletion, or for a new article by this name, would not depend on the contents of the article, but on establishing, by fresh evidence, that the term itself was notable. Go, construct a case on the talk page - if you can make one (which I doubt) then request undeletion. The issue in question is not the article's content, but whether this term merits an article.--Doc 13:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I wouldn't mind seeing Judeofascism revived as a vprotected redirect to List of political epithets. I thought at one time that it might be able to stand as an article in its own right, but after thorough review, I have been unable to find a single solitary noteworthy person who uses the term. I couldn't even find it in use by such rabid antisemites like the marginally noteworthy Alex Linder. Tomer 07:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I would mind. And I would mind the creation of an article entitled "The 9/11 Attacks Were A Jewish Plot" no matter where it redirected. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
That pretty obviously goes to Conspiracy theory. :-p Tomer 19:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, following Doc's instructions, I've added material to the Talk page on why this article should have a fresh AfD vote. FRS 20:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

History only undeletion

History only undeletions can be performed without needing a vote on this page. For example, suppose someone writes a biased article on Fred Flintstone, it is deleted, and subsequently someone else writes a decent article on Fred Flintstone. The original, biased article can be undeleted, in which case it will merely sit in the page history of the Fred Flintstone article, causing no harm. Please do not do this in the case of copyright violations.


Decisions to be reviewed

Template loop detected: Template:Vfu mechanics

November 28, 2005

AutoExtra.com

I would like for this business name to be reconsidered for addition into wikipedia - for reasons similiar to Amazon.com being included. AutoExtra.com is a business name (including the .com!) and as such has a place in the index for background and extra information regarding the business.--Adam

  • Note: article was speedied as linkspam. Presumably you could rewrite it using neutral point of view and avoiding spam and it couldn't be speedy deleted. However, I also suggest that you take a look at WP:CORP to see if AutoExtra.com meets typical community standards for notable businesses. We have an article on Amazon because they were very large and groundbreaking. -- SCZenz 22:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and send to afd. The deleted revisions are linkspam and shouldn't be in an independent article, but I don't think the most recent version was blatant enough to speedy. The site itself has a credible Alexa rank of 13,174 and several Google news hits, so may well survive the full afd process if expanded. On the other hand, we already have a proper, if short, article at AutoExtra, and I suspect consensus will be to merge it there. —Cryptic (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and list, because I'm pretty sure the outcome will be merge or redirect, but I'm not sure which one. Titoxd 23:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and redirect to AutoExtra. Or, if there's nothing but linkspam in the old versions of AutoExtra.com, just keep deleted and redirect. Either way, no reason to have a separate article, and no reason to keep an obvious redirect to a currently-existing article shut down. There's no reason to have an AfD; if there's non-spam content it can be gotten out of the history and merged without all the bureaucracy. -- SCZenz 23:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Merrr

My article on the origin of the word merrr was deleted yesterday and I request it be undeleted as it is an informative article on a pretty big craze that is getting bigger all the time. Theres a good 2000 people who use this term and it is getting more popular each day, so before long this will become something that you the administrators will recognize.

George Alexander (US Army soldier)

See the AfD here.

The AfD debate was long and the closing admin (Sjakkalle), quite rightly couldn't see much consensus. However, now we have the claim that article should be merged into 2003 invasion of Iraq media coverage (which has been done), and this page made a redirect (which has been opposed). Is it too early to begin AfD with this again? --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Relist — with the clear option of the merge stated from the outset. --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • AFD does not decide merge vs keep. --SPUI (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with SPUI. Merge-versus-breakout does not require sysop intervention and is treated as normal editing. Editors involved duke it out discuss it rationally amongst themselves on the Talk pages, reach consensus, etc. The AfD discussion can serve as a talking point, but has no special authority other than a convenient record of what people thought. This is not a matter for WP:AfD or WP:DRV at this point. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above, with the addition that the place to discuss this is Talk:George Alexander (US Army soldier), and the way to draw attention to such a discussion is Misplaced Pages:Requests for comments. Uncle G 20:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment — the reason I listed this here is because the outcome of WP:AFD has been interpreted very differently by different editors, who are currently revert warring. I beleive this is the right place to discuss AfDs that have not worked properly: that is partly why its name was changed. --Gareth Hughes 22:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The outcome of the AfD was no consensus; there certainly wasn't a consensus to merge either (since almost nobody said merge at the AfD). So the disagreement about merging the article has nothing to do with deletion review that I can see. The AfD worked perfectly, revealing there wasn't a consensus to delete the article, which is all it can do; reviewing the workings of an AfD is all that Deletion Review can do. All the editors involved will have to talk it out. -- SCZenz 22:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Packages in Java

I dont think the deletion decision here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Packages in Java was very fair since there were 3 keeps and 3 deletes and it was claimed that there was 2k - 5d. If it deserves a wikibook article, it should have an article here, at least a shorter version which points to the wikibook article. I tried putting up a shorter version of the article (minus the list parts) up but it was deleted again by User:Splash I don't want the article restored to its original state, but made a shorter version than is up at wikibooks. Astrokey44 09:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. Possibly not the call I would've made, but I see how he got it. DanMS and Mgm's comments, although not explicit "votes", do unequivocally support the delete position and are well-reasoned contributions to the discussion. Astrokey44's reasoning was wholly irrelevant and legitimately discounted. That does give 5-2. -- SCZenz 09:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have no strong feelings on the existence-or-not of this article but observe a few things. First, that the "shorter version of the article" was identical to the version I deleted, save for a removal of the long list of packages. Second, numerically, if I were to included Mgm as a delete, it's probably 6d-2k. Third, Astrokey44 has suggested a template linking to Wikibooks: I think this is a good idea, but don't know what the template is. We have something like "Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on <topic> but Wiktionary does <link>" — do we have one for Wikibooks, or do we just have to use {{Wikibookspar|Transwiki|Packages in Java}}? Fourth, I deliberately didn't orphan this article since I rather suspect some Wikipedic article could exist at this title, or a similar one, but the AfD was, I thought, clear enough on this particular offering. -Splash 09:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    I just made one here Template:Wikibooksarticle and put it back on the article as you suggested - can you change it goes straight to the article rather than doing a search? I dont know template code stuff very well. Astrokey44 09:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. If you want to make the wikibook more visible listing it in the external link section of Java programming language and slightly expanding the brief mention packages have there will work better as it provides lots more context. - Mgm| 09:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and keep the soft redirect. I think that having this transwikied with a soft redirect left behind resolves the concerns listed at the AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 26, 2005

List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (2nd nomination)

The administrator himself said that even after accounting for possible sockpuppets the total tally was 21 delete to 12 keep, many keeps of were hasty reactions and yet he still chose no consensus. This is the second time this list has been voted for deletion and the second time it has concluded in no consensus when it's counterparts List of Jews in the Russian Academy of Sciences, List of Jews in the French Academy of Sciences were deleted right off the bat. I repudiate my previous claim for possible bias - I'm just not entirely sure why no consensus reaches the same conclusion as keep in the long run - especially when majority clearly prevailed here. Antidote 19:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. I see nothing to suggest anything wrong in this close, and the fact that it has survived twice makes it clear to me that this article ought not go anywhere. Phil Sandifer 19:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Notice that is survived both of those deletions with a large amount of deletes compared to minimal keeps - clearly that shows that this list has only survived two deletion attempts because of no consensus conclusions NOT keep conclusions. Antidote 21:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorsre close. It's 63% for deletion, which makes a close of "no consensus" entirely appropriate. Consistency on "Jews in XYZ" lists would be nice, but it's not clear to me how to obtain it. -- SCZenz 19:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and I voted to delete the article. The closing was correct (or at least totaly reasonable). Antidote says he has a 'sneaking suspicion of bias here', well I don't know how he manages that if he is assuming good faith--Doc 21:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Why this was a no consensus I will never understand as it is clear that lists like this are overtly extraneous and have had a history of deletion. Also I don't see how its fair that a "no consensus" reaches the same conclusion as a keep especially when the majority called for delete. If anything, a no consensus vote should put the article on lockdown until a consensus is reached. Otherwise, keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete. Also you're right, I should assume good faith, and will but the wikipedia deletion system is HORRIBLY flawed if the conclusion is to keep the article now. Antidote 21:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close with a touch of prejudice per Doc. I paused over this on AfD and almost voted delete myself. (I thought): "Criteria is clear. Relevance of main noun to criteria is quite debatable." Did not vote ultimately, but looking at the votes this was closed properly in terms of procedure. To anidote: the onus is on delete in AfD. This is acceptable conservatism. Marskell 21:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn either by re-opening afd or putting article on some type of lockdown - unfortunately, I don't know how to proceed in this case. If 75% if max for delete I suppose reopening the article is the only way to proceed - again, I'm not sure. Antidote 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I know it looks bad but it's the only way I can see to proceed fairly - two no consensus in a row SHOULD NOT equate to a keep. Antidote 21:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes it should. Phil Sandifer 21:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope you're kidding. I suppose next time and AFD vote has 63% delete votes we should just put keep. Antidote 22:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
That is likely what he'd say, in my experience. ;-) To save a pointless argument, may I interject here and suggest that looking into starting a general discussion on List of (Ethnic/religious group) in (Profession) articles would be more productive than AfD'ing this one until you get the result you want? -- SCZenz 22:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not the result that I want, it's the result that should fairly be given. If there is a no consensus then it should not be treated the same as a keep especially concerning majority delete. Given this, I am reluctant to put up another AFD because people will probably take it too seriously and bitch and complain...blah blah. The point is that this list should be given some type of lockdown mode where a consensus CAN be reached. It is the only fair way to proceed. I think the same should be done to List of Roman Catholics. Antidote 22:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And next we can lock all self-identified deletionists and inclusionists in a room until they reach a consensus on a middle school!  ;-) -- SCZenz 23:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yea, clearly I can see you're not taking this seriously. I can't help but be shocked at how unfair this conclusion was. Now there is no way to renominate this list because 3rd AFD would make the keep voters shit their pants and put hysterical keeps...even though a sturdy majority voted delete before and a history of deletions have occurred with lists like this. The system here falls apart. Antidote 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive my levity, but I had a serious point. There are many articles we just won't receive a consensus on, at least not in the forseeable future. Why should these articles be specially locked down in some way? -- SCZenz 23:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a special case in a way - majority voted delete but it still led to an inevitable keep through no consensus. The list in itself is way overextended and all its predecessors have been deleted. It's the loner stander and only based on a lot of keep votes in retaliation for renomination. I think all no consensus articles should be so-called "quaranteened" until a keep or delete decision is reached - but its usually not necessary for those because the keep and deletes are evenly matched and the articles themselves aren't lone standers. It's the equivalent of keeping a List of unicyclists in the National Academy of Medicine - way too detailed and for no purpose. Antidote 00:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
(Resetting indentation)
To be perfectly clear, a lack of consensus to delete means, has always meant, and I expect will always mean that we keep the article. The default position of all articles is "keep." Without a consensus to change that position, the position remains "keep." Phil Sandifer 00:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
So I was correct in saying that keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete, even if a majority vote is delete. That doesn't entirely strike me as fairness. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ummm... this isn't some sort of contest between delete and keep where we're interested in a fair fight. Phil Sandifer 01:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Since Misplaced Pages is not paper, if we can't get a consensus to delete a not-so-good article, well, it's not the end of the world. That's why the default action is keep. (And there's no more consensus to "quarantine" than to delete, I'd imagine.) Yes, the debate was close, but I think it's fair to say 21-12 isn't a consensus. It's almost a marginal consensus, true, but that's not too convincing to me. For what it's worth, I agree with you about the article, and I'd support a general discussion on the issues you raise in order to get consistency on this type of list. But I don't see the relevance of this being a "lone stander" if the articles are considered one by one, and the fact that it's "way too detailed and for no purpose" is just your (and my) opinion. -- SCZenz 00:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
How about we open a discussion in the Talk page, and see if we can perhaps make a List of Fellows of the Royal Society and move the Jewish list into that (though I'm not thrilled with having that list either - again - it's seems a bit overextended). But, it's the best thing to do at this point. Unless there's an agreement to create another AFD --- which I highly doubt there will be. Also, I think 21 to 12 is a hefty vote but then again that's just my opinion. The list of Jewish publishers had a 25 to 9 vote or something, and it was deleted. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it's quite possible that I'm the only person in this discussion who can give a Royal Institution member's eye view. This article should under no circumstances have been considered for deletion and I don't know why it ever was. If it's ever listed for deletion again the result will be a keep. It would therefore be unwise to attempt to overturn the keep result of the last AfD, in which no consensus to delete was found. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
List of Fellows of the Royal Society would have been marginally acceptable (though I still think it's too extraneous in the long run) but List of Jedi Fellows of the Royal Society, List of Brazilian Fellows of the Royal Society and List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society are not. Antidote 23:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Well within reasonable parametres, so much so in fact, that I think closing it as a delete would have been quite dubious. Two "no consensus" results in a row, means that there was still no consensus, so the article is still kept. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn The article should live. --Marcperkel 15:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The article hasn't been deleted. The discussion was brought here to review whether or not it should, in fact, have been. Overturning the closure (of no consensus) doesn't sound like what you mean. -Splash 16:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Even though I personally would have voted for deletion, the actual vote doesn't come anywhere near true consensus, and the fact it's survived two AfDs suggests that's not a fluke. Should be kept and should not be re-nominated any time soon. Too bad, but there you have it. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It has survived two afds by only managing a no conesus both with staggering amounts of delete votes---- this is no way suggests that the article is a keeper - all it shows is that its contributors are staunchly proud of their list and wish to keep it - hence pushing many close delete votes to no consensuses - SEE history of deletion of lists of this type. Antidote 23:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

I have tentatively undeleted this and was then notified on my talk page that I should mention this here. I believe there were enough keep votes in the deletion "debate" to warrant keeping this article on the grounds of lack of consensus to delete. I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft". Furthermore, there have been two speedy keep votes and at least two early attempts to speedy-keep the article; I would have been the third to vote speedy keep if I had participated in the "discussion". I didn't because I saw enough keep votes that I didn't think it would be deleted. — Timwi 12:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I re-deleted this. I've no opinion on the article or the legitimacy of the AfD closing, but this is 'Deletion review' not 'undeletion homologation'. Let it be decided here as to whether the stay deleted or not. --Doc 17:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn undeletion (Endorse original AfD). Valid AfD (30 deletes/11 keep/9 merge/1 anon) with a note in the discussion that the information had been merged into Ontario provincial highway 401 during the course of the discussion. As a result of the incorporation of the material into the parent article the only potential difference between deletion and a merge is the creation of a redirect. As the article's name is fairly cumbersome, a decision to delete instead of creating a redirect was within reasonable bounds of administrator discretion. Examination of the merged article does not show any obvious need for splitting things out based on article size. It should also be noted that there were at least as many references to WP:NOT by persons supporting deletion as use of the term roadcruft, so a reason for deletion based on core Misplaced Pages policies was available for anyone wishing to find it. --Allen3  14:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse / KD. Timwi, please read up on our deletion policy. There have been some proposals along the lines of "anything with 5 or more keep votes is automatically kept" but all of these have been rejected. And despite your claim I notice several 'delete' votes with lengthy explanations. Radiant_>|< 19:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted without prejudice. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep merged. It's not deleted, so we shouldn't be discussing an undeletion. To comply with GFDL requirements we need to undelete the history and place a redirect here, so people can see where the material came from and who contributed it. - Mgm| 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Gamaliel 00:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. The consensus at AfD was quite clear. And when you're the 30th vote, there's no need to write a series of long reasoning again. -- SCZenz 00:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This has already been merged into the highway article. The information is still available in Misplaced Pages, and in the form that's more consistent with existing policy (i.e. in the highway article rather than split out), and the numbers involved can pretty safely be described as consensus. There's no particularly overwhelming reason to revisit this. Keep deleted. (FWIW, I wouldn't oppose recreating the title as a redirect to Ontario provincial highway 401, but there's no need to restore the article in its original form.) Bearcat 01:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Consensus was clear. And as for Timwi's rationale for unilaterally undeleting (I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft".), in addition to being insulting (some voters are more equal than others, eh?) is flatly false, as a quick scan of the AfD page will show. --Calton | Talk 04:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - you can't speedy keep after a full vote that ended in a deletion consensus. Retroactive speedy keep based on only the early votes is ridiculous. - Tεxτurε 21:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Judeofascism

I would like to request that we undelete redirect Judeofascism and point it to the relevant article/section. It was deleted on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism, however due to the fact that Islamofascism is an article in its own right then I feel that we should at least point people to the List of political epiteths page (f they type it in, then it will take them there). I don't actually feel that the term should have it's own article. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I have been bold and created a redirect. Anyone wishing it deleted should list it on WP:RFD. --SPUI (talk) 01:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I have deleted it. It went through an AfD, so no one has the right to restore it unless it goes through a deletion review. SlimVirgin 01:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The AfD was on the article, not the redirect. I am restoring nothing that was "voted" on. --SPUI (talk) 02:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, that's not how AfD works. AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist. If the vote is to keep the title, then it's up to the editors on the page to decide whether it should be a redirect or have a text of its own. This is what happened to Islamofascism: it went through an AfD, the result was keep, for a time it was a redirect, and then someone turned it into an article again. But the consensus for Judeofascism was delete. SlimVirgin 02:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
SPUI has recreated the redirect (again). I have deleted it, and protected, until this process is complete. --Doc 21:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Slim -- I understand your arguments above, and feel strongly that both terms are deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrows. That point of view is apparently not acceptable for discussion. If there is an edit of mine that you feel violates WP:Point, let me see it, and I'll let you know if I agree that I screwed up, which is quite possible. In the meantime, I have posed some reasonable (I think) questions on your talk page, questions I think are worthy of reasonable responses. BrandonYusufToropov 17:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn speedy deletion of the redirect. Redirects are cheap, they aren't obvious, they prevent redirection. Redirects are just plain good. SPUI is right (much as it pains me to say that ;D ); WP:CSD A4 doesn't apply to this redirect, as it isn't substantially identical to the redirect. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AfD result was to delete the title, whether the page had text on it, or whether it had the word "redirect" on it. When something is deleted after an AfD, you can't simply recreate it as a redirect. You have to go through deletion review, which is why Ta bu nominated it. Please allow this process to take place. SlimVirgin 02:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the content, not the title. This is why we have such "rulecruft" on WP:CSD; otherwise people will make up their own reasons to delete articles. --SPUI (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the article; AFD doesn't deal with anything else. WP:CSD A4 (go read it) doesn't allow for deletion of something that isn't substantially identical to the deleted content, and that redirect is not substantially identical to the deleted content. If you want this redirect deleted, go to RFD. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    You're just wrong about that. AfD is always a vote on whether the page should exist i.e. whether the subject is notable, whether there are reputable sources available, whether it's possible for it to be encyclopedic. It is not a vote on the current contents. If the current contents are poor, but otherwise the subject is good, the article should be rewritten, not deleted. AfD does not control content or suspend normal editing practices. It controls which page titles exist. Also, can I ask you please either to have this conversation here, or on our talk pages, because you're currently posting to both, so I'm having to repeat everything. SlimVirgin 03:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I think you're getting speedy delete rules mixed up with AfD. This has nothing to with speedy delete. The article went through an AfD, where people voted overwhelmingly to delete the title. SlimVirgin 03:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Can you point out in the deletion policy where deletion of an article prevents recreation of anything under that title, or where this redirect was debated and the decision was delete? I don't much appreciate being threatened for creating a redirect to the coverage of the term "Judeofascism" (reprehensible as it is) Misplaced Pages does have, at List of political epithets. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • In case it's not clear, I "vote" to keep the redirect. --SPUI (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete the redirect, clearly no CSD applied. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    There was no speedy delete in this case, so the CSD policy does not apply. What applies is the deletion policy, which says this page must go through deletion review before it can be restored. The article went through AfD and the result was delete. Because of a technical problem, it could not be deleted at the time. People forgot about it for awhile, then another editor deleted it (by which time someone else had blanked the contents and made it a redirect, but only pending deletion script). Then Ta bu put it up for deletion review. Someone re-created it and I deleted it, and this happened several times. That is where we stand. SlimVirgin 04:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says delete? If so, and you hadn't just closed a deletion discussion, it was a speedy delete. --SPUI (talk) 04:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says Save page? If so, it was an out of process speedy undeletion. El_C 04:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I deleted it only because you created it without going through deletion review; in other words, you created it against the deletion policy. As an admin, I was responding to a policy violation. SlimVirgin 04:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's my opinion that Slim had a correct interpretation. At the AfD people could have voted 'delete and redirect'. Thus, it should go to DRV before anything happens. Redirects are cheap, yes. So don't fret over her for deleting a redirect which probably won't be used. And I'm neutral as to the final product of this DRV, but I'm endorsing Slim's actions. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted still a neologism. Unless you can provide evidence that the term is used widely by anyone outside of the fringe I see no reason to undelete.Homey 04:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. My point above was that if it's right to undelete it, that's what the deletion review is here for, and when several people think it should be kept deleted, then we obviously should run the DRV. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete as redirect with new AfD.
The AfD on this was hard to count, I think. And in terms of the actual word, it indeed seems like a cheap attempt at WP:POINT (for better or worse, "Islamofascism" has been successfully pushed into public consciousness as a term, mostly by Chris Hitchens; while "Judeofascism" remains a rare neologism. Still, this is a deletion review, not the AfD itself, so it's not really germane what opinion I have of the term itself. For that matter, however, it is conceivable that a term that was rare in April has since come into sufficiently widespread use to warrant an article (even if a redirect one).
Just looking at administration, it appears that the AfD vote was something like 26 delete, 9 redirect (counting one ambiguous vote both ways). If you take those 9 redirect votes as implicit "keep" votes on a redirect page, it narrowly misses delete consensus. I think the most reasonable way to resolve this is to create a page that is a "soft redirect", i.e. says "For explanation see List of political epithets", but then immediately AfD the new page. If that is done, I, for one, will (probably) vote a delete on the new page. But whether there is actual consensus on a page that simply redirects is unclear, IMO. A new AfD on a slightly different issue can establish consensus.
Of course, I want to be clear that I think SlimVirgin took a very reasonable approach to the ambiguous AfD. There's no fault in her action, but it would just be nicer to have an unambiguous consensus to point to. Still, just becasue something was non-notable at one point should not mean that it can never become notable; when I often see two AfD's on the same article within a month, it doesn't seem outrageous to see a new article with the same name 7 months after AfD. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete redirect and send to RfD, technically. A redirect by definition is not "substantially identical" to a regular article. A better idea would be to send the rather idiotic, unmaintainable, necessarily POV List of political epithets to AfD and solve two problems at once. Marskell 06:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse delete -- The deletion was correctly handled for a neologism. Deletion policy holds that "by long tradition and consensus, Deletion Review only addresses procedural problems that may have hampered an AFD." This proposal offers no reasoning as to the invalidity of the deletion, hence the inappropriately created redirect was properly speed-deleted. If one has a problem with "Islamofascism" as an article/title, propose it for AfD. However, there is no parity in creating new "parallel" terms to those one disagrees with just to make a Point. —LeFlyman 06:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted for now, revisit later. I personally don't object to the existence of a redirect at Judeofascism, considering it is used by fringe sources and is mentioned in the List of political epithets. If it's significant enough to be mentioned in the list, then we might as well redirect to the list. But the problem is that it will not remain a redirect. This issue has arisen now because several editors want to write a Judeofascism article as a rhetorical expression of their anger over the existence of Islamofascism. So it seems to me that this is the wrong time to undelete the redirect. Revisit the issue later when tempers have cooled and when there will be less pressure to create an article for a topic that has already been AfD'd. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment There seems to be a lot of confusion over the purpose of AfD. SlimVirgin's explanation makes perfect sense: we vote on the existence of a topic, rather than content, because if a poor article exists on a legit topic then the appropriate remedy is to improve it, not delete it. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that we are voting on the content: people justify delete votes by citing "POV" or "OR", and "redirect" votes are legion. I think the above disagreement between Slim and AMIB is a product of that confusion. Whatever the actual policy is, it would be a good idea to indicate it at the top of AfDs. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • How about redirect (using # to the right (anchor) point in the list even!) and protect the redirect. That way the article can't be recreated either. Would that be a good compromise? Kim Bruning 07:04, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep deleted the original AfD considered substituting a redirect for the article, but it was soundly rejected. Neo-logisms don't deserve redirects. I'm open to reconsidering that decision, but new evidence to the usage of this terms must be supplied and accepted. As far as I see it, none is even being offered. Rightly or wrongly the debated on afd earlier this year concluded that Islamofascism had usage and Judeofascism did not, unless that conclusion can be successfully challanged, the decisions should stand. This is about usage of terms, not political correctness.--Doc 11:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Where would hypothetical evidence of the word's new usage go if it can't go on the page with the same name though? I believe—as I state above—that the only way to decide whether such new usage exists (it has been seven months) is among AfD voters, not here on Deletion review. After all, if the usage is widepread enough to be mentioned in List of political epithets, that seems to endorse the idea that it exists enough for notability and verifiability (or it shouldn't be on that list).
I don't think the poarticular word is really notable either; but administratively, it feels wrong to decide "once deleted" an article title can never be notable. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per above arguments. -- JJay 16:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Slimvirgin and others. Briangotts 17:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD with extremely clear consensus, not only on deletion, but on the reason for deletion. It was deleted because, unlike "Islamofascism," "Judeofascism" is not a real word in any real use. Nothing about this has changed since the AfD. The valid community decision was that there should not be an article entitled "Judeofascism." Nothing about the re-creation as a redirect changes this. IMHO this is clearly POV. For an analogy: suppose someone created an article entitled Fred Rogers was a heinous criminal," and it were deleted on the basis that Fred Rogers was not a criminal at all, and then someone re-created it as a redirect to Fred Rogers and claimed that this was acceptable because the content, being a redirect, was different from that voted for deletion. In both cases, the the title itself expresses a POV that was rejected by the AfD. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. There was nothing wrong with the AfD process used in this case. Redirect is a valid option for people to use in AfD voting: in this case, the deletes won. Please remember that this is a discussion about the AfD process, not the page itself, unless some new information has emerged, which I am not seeing. Turnstep 18:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted This discussion appears to be nothing more than a back-handed way of reversing a decision made by the community.Slrubenstein | ] 20:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per SlimVirgin and Dpbsmith. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - nothing wrong with AfD process or conclusions, no evidence of wider usage of neologism in half-year since then. Rd232 00:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete
Because
1. The article that was most recently Speedy Deleted was titled Judeofascism (term), which is not identical to the title of the article previously deleted some months ago under AfD, that is, Judeofascism. The difference, while subtle, was thought to have some importance in the context of the Islamofascism page, and should be understood to mean that although the existence of the actual alleged political phenomenon is disputed, the existence of notable political discussions employing the label is not.
2. As a result of the deletion, we are not able to see the content of any of the history Judeofascism (term), but if memory serves, one recent variant of the page at least had links to a half dozen or more sites where the term Judeofascism was supposedly used. For the sake of argument, lets suppose (as would not surprise me) that some of those links go to prominent sites, for example Al Jazeera, or are attributable to well known people (e.g, Osama Bin Laden). What's the inherent objection to an article containing such content, if (as we have tried to make happen on Islamofascism (term)) the page does not endorse the use of the term, and provides examples of criticisms of its use.
Accordingly, I strongly believe a speedy delete is inappropriate, and that an AfD debate should be held, which would at least give the proponents of the page an opportunity to bring it up to something approaching encyclopedic content. --FRS 01:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Judeofascism (term) had no contents for most of its existence, but was a redirect to Judeofascism. A couple of people, yourself included, tried to insert or revert to a very short text that was a very badly written, highly POV, personal essay with no sources that violated every content policy we have. I'm surprised you don't remember it, as you were one of its defenders. SlimVirgin 02:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the antecedent for "his" is. Proably you meant "its" as in "FRS was one of the defenders of the article." Well, as said just above, I'm not convinced an article of this title is inherently unsuitable for WP. That doesn't mean I ever defended the content of the article. And as you say yourself several paragraphs up: "AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist." --FRS 03:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
You were defending an article that had no sources, and for which no credible sources could be found, and which was therefore a violation of our policies, which you might care to read one day: WP:NOR and WP:V. You also made no attempt even to clean up the writing, but just reverted to it. Probably not your finest hour. I'm surprised you want to draw people's attention to it. SlimVirgin 03:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Excuuuusse me, but, First, I never "defended the article," I simply reverted those who either blanked out the content or redirected the article to one with completely different content. Moreover, It was ME that put the article up for AfD, which resulted in it being speedily deleted. If it wasn't for my action there'd probably still be a mindless edit war over it as was there for the brief days of its existence. Second, I've only been editing here since early October, so I haven't had too many "hours," fine or otherwise, and (third) I think I read one of "our policies" was not to bite the newbies. I think I also read somewhere that WP is not censored. FRS 04:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted because it is both a neologism and a falsification of logic and truth. It is IMPOSSIBLE that the the religion of the Jews, i.e. Judaism, could be "equated" in any way with Fascism-Nazism. It was in the name of Nazi Fascism that the Holocaust happened and nowhere and at no time in history have the Jews ever done anything like that to their enemies. This is just another clumsy attempt to "blame the victims" for something they have neither believed nor done. IZAK 03:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
With respect, IZAK, there are editors over at Islamofascism (term) making the exact same (flawed) argument about the supposed connection of their religion and fascism. The argument is flawed because the term (at least the neologism Islamfascim that has survived an AfD vote) is not used to imply that the Muslim religion is fascist. It means that some people who hold or purport to hold Islamic views behave in ways similar to fascists. A similar complaint could be made about some Jewish people, I expect, and if the proponents of the article can show that enough (or prominent enough) people use this term, a WP article may be justified. FRS 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And there are credible sources in one case, and not in the other, which means Islamofascism can exist without violating our editorial polices, and Judeofascism cannot. SlimVirgin 03:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Space Station 13

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Space Station 13

I would like to request that your decision to delete the article space_Station_13 be re-thought and considered in a different perspective. First of all a simple page that didn't even use up more than 10kb of space shouldn't have been given so much attention in the first place. The article was put up as an aid for new players; because the game is; as it was made so clear; so small, and didn't have a very useful main website, as the current website was run by a biased host at the time; although that subject is irrelivant. There was no justifiable reason for the deletion of this article other than the 'assumption' that it was put up for advertising purposes and because of snob-nosed encyclopediacs going crazy over such a small-based community. It is a clear sign of the sort of biased administration that is in effect on Misplaced Pages. There is no REAL space station named 'Thirteen' and therefore the space is not required by anything more important. When a space station named 'Thirteen' is launched, the community will gladly give up the space for it.

Furthermore, I'd like at least a valid reason for the article being deleted, or its official re-addition. I'm not going make a threat, but the subject will be re-added constantly by the fan base of over 500 unique members; and is something that the development/administration departments of SS13 cannot control.

Please also note that the recent statement on the discussion for deletiong for SS13 is incorrect. The game is not run by a one-man development team, it is in fact run by a 5-person development team, a 4-person website team, and a 12 person moderation team; and is actually the subject of a 3D game which is in development for the next 2 years.

We're not worried about the space it takes. We're worried about its encyclopedic value. If you think the person who runs the current website is biased, go run your own, but Misplaced Pages is not a webhost. - Mgm| 23:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • 500 members? Whoa! Hold on there LivingWithStyle, Somethingawful and Gaiaonline! You got some pretty damned popular competition! SS13 is not notable enough to be on Misplaced Pages. This is coming from a person who helped the article quite a bit. -Mrdie
  • Endorse deletion. I see no problems with the afd, and threats are unlikely to convince anyone. —Cryptic (talk) 02:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion - I beg to differ with Cryptic. Unconvincing non-threats are definitely going to convince Wikipedians... convince them that the article in question is utter crap that must stay deleted at all costs. FCYTravis 03:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion. The AfD was valid, and if another valid deletion reason is needed, I'd like to point out that Misplaced Pages is not a web hosting service. I'm sure a "non-biased" web hosting service can be found. Web hosting is a very competitive business. One dollar from each of those 500 members should buy you a site for many, many years. If you want the AfD to be overturned, you must provide new information, which you do not seem to have done, with the exception of the size of the development team, which is unlikely to change anyones vote on the original AfD. Turnstep 18:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep deleted. same reasons as yoism only more so.Geni 17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Don't worry, we can protect articles against recreation if it keeps being readded. Titoxd 18:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 25

Blogging Tories

Based on the discussion, I don't see how this deletion can be adequately justified.

1) The editor who nominated the article for deletion and the main advocate for keeping it both agreed that the VfD results should be the same for this article and Progressive Bloggers, the Blogging Tories' "rival" group with roughtly equal membership. Progressive Bloggers survived its (second) VfD the day before this article was deleted.

2) The admin who closed the VfD and deleted the article had personally voted for deletion. While I can't find anything in Misplaced Pages's policies to specifically ban this practice, it does seem rather unbecoming, especially in light of the third point...

3) Most importantly, by my count the vote was 20 delete, 19 keep, and 2 merge. A plurality of one vote can't be considered "consensus" by any stretch of the imagination. (The consensus article suggest a two-thirds majority for VfDs.) There was also no "emerging consensus" by means of pro-keep editors switching to the pro-delete side. This, combined with the "when it doubt, don't delete" rule, definitely means that the article shouldn't have been deleted.

I move for an overturn and undelete. The Invisible Hand 10:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn per above point 2 seems quite convincing AND there was no consensus for deletion (even though I voted delete).  Grue  11:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse and keep deleted. Point 1 is unfortunate but irrelevant; Misplaced Pages is often inconsistent. To point 2, this is one of those things to be avoided because they look improper, not because they are improper - we should not assume that CAF was biased. And point 3 is plainly and entirely wrong, because of the invasion of sockpuppets. After discounting invalid votes, I do get a two-thirds majority for deletion, which means that deletion is a valid call. I propose a redirect to the Canadian Blogscape. Radiant_>|< 14:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Strike vote, convinced by the below. Radiant_>|< 19:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • There were a lot of "delete" sockpuppets too, including some "war on blogs" GNAA trolls.  Grue  14:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, I also discounted those. However, most GNAA members appear to be legit users as well, and the so-called "war on blogs" is not indiscriminate trolling, but an effort to clean out unremarkable blogs (per WP:NOT a web guide). This was discussed at WP:ANI and there was found no reason to do anything about it. If you believe there are problems, please ask Kelly for a sockcheck. Radiant_>|< 14:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I count 9 valid keep votes and 12 delete votes (including GNAA, myself and Cleared as filed). This is nowhere near consensus to delete.  Grue  15:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. While I would have preferred that the closing admin "show their work", after having looked at the arguments presented (see talk page as noted above) there was a clear consensus to delete, and no compelling counter-argument presented. - brenneman 12:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I still don't see any consensus. I believe that consistency is a very good reason for keeping this article and if I had known that Progressive Bloggers would be kept, I'd voted keep instead of delete.  Grue  12:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I've read through all of the comments (taking sock/meat puppetry from both sides into account), and I don't see anything remotely resembling a consensus. —Lifeisunfair 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. No consensus to delete. Rhobite 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete per Lifeisunfair and others. Turnstep 18:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn. I really don't see clear consensus, whether you discount potential meatpuppets or not. In a dubious and complex vote like that one, a voter in the debate should never have done the closing himself. -- SCZenz 19:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The fact that there may "no consensus" based upon pure numbers is mitigated by the fact that this is not a vote. In the absence of back-ups to the "it's notable" arguments, the closing admin has the resposibility to do more than simply count heads. We reject scripts like the "afd helper" because we want nuanced interpretations of the results. That is what we got here. - brenneman 20:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
1. Actually, an AfD debate is a vote (but not a simple majority vote).
2. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not seeing this supposed consensus. In my assessment, neither side's argument was persuasive enough to prevail. If I had to pick one, however, I'd say that the combined "keep" votes were move eloquent than the combined "delete" votes; most of the "delete" voters merely indicated that the group is non-notable, while many of the "keep" voters provided specific reasons why they believe that the group is notable. —Lifeisunfair 21:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, you're misusing the word "vote" to mean "majority vote." The commonness of this misconception was a major (and legitimate) factor in the decision to rename VfD, as was the desire to specify the type of page being discussed.
FYI, American Heritage defines a "vote" as "a formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue." In a slightly different context, a vote is "the act or process of voting," which refers back to the aforementioned definition. (This is the connotation that applies.) —Lifeisunfair 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn deletion and undelete. Grue and The Invisible Hand don't agree on the numbers, but they do agree that the amount of valid keep and delete votes are close together. I can't see how this shows an emerging concensus. And based on point two, I don't see how it would be fair to delete this either. - Mgm| 23:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • My original preference in both debates was to keep, but what I'm more concerned about is that it inherently constitutes a bias-by-inclusion to treat this and Progressive Bloggers differently from each other. Although my personal preference would be to undelete this, I'd be comfortable at this point with either undeleting Blogging Tories or deleting ProgBlog -- but whichever happens, they both have to be treated equivalently; there's simply no valid argument to be made that they fall on opposite sides of the keep-delete line from each other. And I do have to agree that a debate as heavily puppet-infested as this one turned out to be should really not have been closed by an admin who had directly participated in the discussion. Bearcat 01:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. Well, I do seem to have gotten myself into controversy early. Upon reviewing the discussion, I obviously made a mental error; by my count there were 8 legitimate keep votes and 12 legitimate delete votes (in addition to 3 "borderline-legitimate" delete votes which I did not factor in). Somehow, in my notes, this translated to a more than two-thirds preference towards deletion, a number which I cannot fathom how I came up with now. In addition, it didn't occur to me at the time that there would be a problem closing an AFD that I had voted on, and I had no motivation in closing it other than it had been left unclosed for several days past its 5-day period. I now recognize that it is unseemly to decide consensus on a close issue that I had expressed an opinion on, a mistake I won't repeat. I appreciate the good faith that the above comments have assumed about my action, and have no problem with the consensus of the community expressed here. —Cleared as filed. 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Now that the closing admin has acknowledged that the decision was reached in error, I see no reason to prolong this discussion; the article should be undeleted immediately. —Lifeisunfair 05:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'd just like to extend my appeciation to everyone who participated in this debate, especially the closing admin and those who voted for deletion, for taking an objective view of my motion even when it went against your personal views about the article. I'm new to Misplaced Pages editing, and this has done a lot for the stature of the community in my eyes. Thanks, guys. — The Invisible Hand 09:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment on this process. I can only say that I am deeply dissapointed in the outcome of this discussion. Regardless of American Heritage feeling on what constitutes a "vote", by allowing this to be reduced to simple head-counting, we're doing closing admins (and wikipedia in general) a grave disservice. Even on that count, however, this was a clear consesus.
    • If the five editors who claimed B.T. was notable had provided any evidence to back up their claim, then the fourteen who claimed it was not notable would have looked pretty silly.
    • The three editors who said "must keep due to Progressive" were adapting the "how can you delete Foo when you've got Some equally trivial article", and I simply cannot believe that that has somehow become an acceptable argument.
brenneman 12:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
1. My point is that the word "vote" does not necessarily refer to a system in which ballots are simply tallied. That's a specific type of voting (which AfD discussions are not). The word "vote" can refer to "a formal expression of preference for . . . a proposed resolution of an issue" or to the "process" through which such expressions are supplied. This is an accurate description of AfD.
2. I recently participated in a TfD discussion in which a vast majority of voters disagreed with me. Instead of expressing my disappointment that all of them were wrong, I assisted in the consensus-backed modification of a template that I voted to delete. I respectfully suggest that you adopt a similar attitude, given your desire to defer to "a clear consensus" (such as the one above). —Lifeisunfair 16:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, of course you are. Likewise, I'm allowed to say that beating a dead horse is unproductive. —Lifeisunfair 00:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 24

Nixon: Ruin and Recovery 1973-1990

Doesn't appear to meet any speedy criteria. Visible content was: "Nixon;Ruin and recovery is a book by stephen ambrose about richard nixions fall from grace in 1973 and rise back to honor in 1993 and the events in hi..." Kappa 20:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Undelete and list on AfD. Looks like spam, but the speedy rules don't include that. -- SCZenz 21:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Cut the bureaucracy, keep deleted without prejudice. What Kappa just quoted was the entire content (plus the letters "s life between."). Nothing there is worth discussing, but it seems a worthy topic so I hope someone will write about it. Radiant_>|< 14:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above agree with Radiant. A real article could problably be written about this topic, but it would be better starting from scratch than building on an abysmally-written subsubstub ("richard nixions"?!) Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, deleted out of process. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Doesn't look at all like spam to me. Give it fifteen seconds of wikification, spellchecking, and proper punctuation, and it's no better nor worse than many of our other book stubs. If Lucky thinks it needs deleting so badly, let him put it on afd like anyone else. —Cryptic (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Who cares? It would be a lot quicker to re-write a decent stub than to have this debate. --Doc 12:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted with no prejudice to the creation of something substantial in its place. Concur with Doc. - Mgm| 23:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD. Most speedy deletions are good, sometimes someone gets it wrong. No harm in undeleting and listing on AfD. Of course any administrator could do this, we don't need a discussion on it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Rough edges are normal in a wiki. Many admins need a reminder that the proper solution to poor quality stubs where an article is appropriate is to EDIT them. Unfocused 22:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 23

Gallery of Socialist Realism

The AfD discussion, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of Socialist Realism, has been incorrectly closed on two counts:

  1. Only two of the 16 votes were simple delete votes, most of the delete votes were Transwiki and delete, but the closing admin did not make any effort to keep the content available for transwikying;
  2. In the course of the AfD discussion, it became clear that the WP:NOT policy was excluding pictorial content of encyclopediac value. A lengthy discussion there concluded with a change of the policy with respect to collections of images; after the change in the policy, which has met with uniform approval, all the votes were keep votes. Hence, the grounds cited for almost all delete votes ceased to exist at the time the AfD was closed, which the closing admin appears to have been oblivious to.

The page should certainly be undeleted. I think it is clear that the page would win a new AfD, hence, in the interests of avoiding unnecessary bureaucracy, I recommend we do not relist on AfD. --- Charles Stewart 19:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment: see also --- Charles Stewart 19:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Note: The 'lengthy' discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposed rewording totalled 3 votes. Which is insufficient to change a long-standing policy, imo. The discussion preceding the vote (for such it was) included 8 messages in total, between 3 users. -Splash 19:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Another note:I presume some or all of the images hinge on fair use claims. It's been considered for some time that mere collections of images, outside of the article to which they would refer, do not constitute fair use. -Splash 19:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Let be noted that I didn't delete the images and we're not arguing about the image merits, but what I deleted was the gathering and listing. As I suggested, adding a category Category:Socialist Realism would be a better way to gather this entries. Anyway, the content was already merged today into Socialist realism. -- ( drini's vandalproof page ☎ ) 21:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • However, until I merged the content, you orphaned a large number of images, which made them eligible for deletion. If I had not taken the precaution of savivng a copy of the page, it could not have been reconstructed in order to merge. If there was a consensus it was to transwiki and delete, which you did not do. Dsmdgold 21:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. The status of the images is safe, and a transwiki for those that are acceptable in commons would be in ok; that said, although we cannot ensure that they will be accepted there. It does seem more appropriate that this page were a category page in commons, though. Titoxd 21:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Observe Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of illuminated manuscript images whose outcome was keep. --- Charles Stewart 21:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. The attempt to change a long-standing policy during the debate by collecting 3 or 4 'votes' and having 3 users discussing it and then to try here to retroactively apply that policy 'change' to users opinions effected before the change is far too much legalese. I do not consider the policy changed, and will probably reverse it pending a proper discussion: WP:ISNOT a repository of images. A collection of image is not an article. Those who cited WP:NOT in their comments were correct, those who called the policy 'misguided' and opted to keep based on a reverse interpretation of non-existent polic-change were wrong. It is reasonable to dismiss such comments: particularly those like CalJW's. Anyone can copy the PD images to Commons, it does not need a transwiki of the would-be article. In fact, Commons is interested in media not articles as I approx understand it, so the transwiki part of the comments are not important from this perspective: the images are still here. The closing admin got this right, those who forced a policy semi-change during the debate to retroactively apply it afterwards were wrong. -Splash 21:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The closing admin made no effort to indicate that he recognised the issue. I would not have made the criticisms I had of an admin who cited the issue and said the later remarks in the discussion had no bearing on the earlier delete votes. As it was, I regard the closing of the AfD as poorly executed. You have also not indicated what you think of the several AfD's that I pointed to in my previous comment that provided a precedent for the change I made to WP:NOT. --- Charles Stewart 22:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I do not dispute that the images are all still "here". They are for the moment. (However, if I had not merged the gallery, most of them would have been orphans and eventually deleted.). There is value to organization and annoatation of images. By merely deleting the article, without re-creating it elsewhere, the closing admin decreased the amount of knowleddge available to Misplaced Pages. I also find it a bit odd to suggest that a closing admin can ignore comments of editors merely because he or she disagrees with the reasoning of the comment. I also find it distressing that to think that a vote to transwiki has no meaning other than delete. It should be noted that one of those voting transwiki specified that "In any case, make sure we don't just lose this, it's excellent." Dsmdgold 23:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If the closing admin had said the comments were irrelevant to the vote, I would still have taken the matter to DRV and said the AfD , but my criticisms would have been less sharp. I regard admins who ignore unanswered arguments to keep made in AfDs when closing to delete as a menace to WP. The ones who at least observe the existence of these arguments are much less malign, even when they make the same assessment. --- Charles Stewart 00:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've put up another link to the WP:NOT discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Proposed change to WP:NOT, following Brennemann's reversal of the change to WP:NOT I applied. --- Charles Stewart 00:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Upon further inspection, the article isn't encyclopedic, here is the entire content:
This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
A whole bunch of images
See also:

This is exactly what Commons is here for. Reading the comments on the WP:NOT talk page does not leave me very convinced. That said, I don't object to a transwiki to Commons. Titoxd 01:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually the structure of the page was bit more complex than that. It was

This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
Lenin
10 images with captions
Stalin
7 images with captions
Ordinary life
10 images with captions
Scenes of Revolution and War
4 images with captions
Technology
3 images with captions
Propaganda
2 images with captions
Architecture
5 images with captions
Sculpture
8 images with captions
See also:

The gallery had more stucture than you are giving it credit for. Please leave your reasons for being unconvinced at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposal to modify WP:NOT an image gallery, I for one would appreciate a fuller discusion. Also can you point me to the portion of Commons that says part of their mission is to host image galleries for the Wikipedias? I can't find it. Dsmdgold 02:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

MYOB

The page was speedy deleted after a request was put in which stated This page was in error. MYOB is an accounts package, not internet slang as the redirect suggested.. While MYOB is an accounting package (), it is also an abbreviation that is used as an internet slang term. See for example FOLDOC, the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary or any other reference found by OneLook. S.K. 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a disambiguation page at MYOB. I don't think this deletion review is necessary because there was no real content deleted. Rhobite 01:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

November 22

Global Resource Bank

  • I vote for undeletion. The Global Resource Bank is the life-work of scientist John Pozzi. It is a non-profit scientific initiative of developing an ecological world economy. Monika Hoy, Germany (monipeperoni@netscape.net)
  • I would like an undeletion of the article on the Global Resource Bank

VOTE: UNDELETE Global Resource Bank. /Lennart

November 21

Argentina v England (2005)

The AfD debate here shows 8 keeps and 11 deletes, and as such, no consensus for deletion. Since similar articles on cricket matches are routinely kept, I think this one should be undeleted as well.  Grue  13:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn, undelete and redirect to Argentina and England football rivalry since the article is already merged. One thing to note here is that this should not have been merged before the AFD had completely run its course. Nonetheless, from reading the AFD debate I cannot see a consensus to delete the article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/ I make this 13 Delete / 5 Keep / 3 Merge. One of the merge votes explicitly indicated "delete" as a second choice, and so IMO can not be read as a keep vote. The other two comments advocating merge seems not to support the separate existance of this article, one said "Professional sports events happen every day...". Therefore I don't think they can be read as simple keep votes either. I think this is within the closer's judgement to close as a delete. However if soemoen wanted to create a new redirect at this title, that would NOT be "substantially similer" and so not subject to a speedy. The merge should not, IMO, have been done while the debate was in progress, however. DES 16:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I oppose the notion that merges cannot be done while an article has been proposed for deletion. Misplaced Pages's normal editing processes should not be over-ridden in that way. Often, the best way to show how things should be done is to do it. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 03:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree with Matthew. Merging is a a sequence of normal edits, and if these are not good edits, anyone can revert them. There is no need for a rule against merging whilst an AfD is in process. --- Charles Stewart 15:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Actually, things are a little more subtle than that, as pointed out below. If content is merged, then the GFDL requires we keep track of the history. This is most usually done by retaining a redirect where once there was an article. This means that, even in the face of an otherwise overwhelming delete (hypothetically, not in this case), those editors would have been overridden by another. Whether that is reasonable is an open question. There are other ways of (probably) meeting the GFDL in cases like this, such as copying the history to the target's talk page prior to deletion of the source. But I personally consider it good form to recommend a merge during the AfD but wait to see if the consensus is that Misplaced Pages would not retain the content at all. -Splash 17:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Indeed Splash is right, and I retract my comment. It is normally inappropriate to merge content from articles during an AfD. --- Charles Stewart 18:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure/keep deleted - Per DES - Tεxτurε 19:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, improperly closed. No consensus for deletion. Feel free to merge and redirect. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Reasonable judgment call, per DES. --Calton | Talk 03:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Per DES. Merges should not be counted as keeps. Carbonite | Talk 15:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That's blatantly not true, and contradicts the Deletion policy. Also, as this article was merged, GFDL requires that it's history is undeleted.  Grue  16:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • In practice, it just doesn't make sense to count "merges" as "keeps". When I vote to "merge", I don't want an article to exist at that location. If I think the information could be useful in some article, a "merge" vote makes sense. If I wanted my vote counted as a "keep", I would have voted that way. Since your GFDL concerns are legitimate (from what I know about the license) I'd support having it as a redirect. Carbonite | Talk 17:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and make into redirect, per Grue's last point. Sam Vimes 16:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn - as per Grue, deletion appears to consitute violation of GFDL, since it appears the content was merged. Also, since merges count as keeps, there was no consensus to delete. Guettarda 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn -as per Grue. --- Charles Stewart 16:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment What, we can't merge the histories? Even if that is not possible, to avoid violating GFDL all that is required is to copy-paste the history into the talk of the target article. Even more if the information that was merged is widely and commonly available, then the pseron who merged it simply has to go and confirm the facts themselves and do a re-write, and again GFDL is preserved. - brenneman 23:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn per above. NSLE (讨论+extra) 00:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close. Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy says merges are neither deletes nor keeps. However, since it is merged (a situation I don't think anyone minds terribly), something has to be done to satisfy GFDL. As a practical matter, I wouldn't oppose undeleting and redirecting. -- SCZenz 00:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, the Deletion policy says nothing special about how to interpret "merge" comments when closing the discussion. The Guide to deletion, on the other hand, explicitly says that "Merge is a recommendation to keep the article's content but to move it ..." As a practical matter and largely guided by the requirement to maintain GFDL, "merge" opinions are routinely interpreted as a recommendation to "keep" the article history (that is to say, "not delete") even though they are not a recommendation to "keep the article as is". "Merge" is often a very nuanced opinion and can not be easily forced into a binary "keep" vs. "delete" framework. This is a good example of why mere vote-counting is bad. Rossami (talk) 05:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment When I created the Argentina and England football rivalry article, I wrote the "2005 friendly" section from the ground-up, without any material from the existing article, and it has since been worked on and added to independently by other editors. I don't believe there *is* actually any material from that article in it, so I'm not sure how that counts as having been merged. Angmering 12:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. Not sure where the nom got that vote count, but I tally it as 5 keep, 11 delete, 1 delete/merge, 2 merge, and one merge/delete. Even without counting the merges as keeps, that's 12d to 5k, which is not a clear enough consensus. If we count the plain merges, it becomes 12d to 7k. I think the burden is on the merge voters to specify what their fallback position is (as only Reyk seems to have done here) so that their votes are clearly not a keep. Turnstep 18:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Utterly fatuous attempt to delete an article about an international football match. Failed to raise convincing consensus but got deleted anyhow. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn because merge and delete is an illegal operation. (In more ways than one) Kim Bruning 08:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Bronx underground

I would like an undeletion of the article on the Bronx Underground. The reasons for deletion were listed as "blatant self-promotional ad spam/link spam." This is simply untrue. The article was not self-promotional, merely a factual account of a local-interest in the Bronx, detailing one of the Bronx's most popular local music venues, and one of the most successful independent promoters in New York City. There were no opinions or values in the article, just facts. I don't think the reasoning behind this article's deletion is fair. - Mike corsillo 10:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted: The deleted page was Bronx underground. Looking at the deleted version I noted two links to the group's homepage, one link to their web forum, one link to a page containing samples from a soon to be released compilation CD, and zero independent sources to help show that this article might not have been written by a public relations department. While I am not sure that this article actually qualified as a proper speedy delete, I saw nothing in the article to suggest it would stand any chance of surviving an AfD. --Allen3  14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • While we do have links to our homepage and samples from our CD, what more would you ask from a small, independent promotions company. We don't even operate for profit, and do not have a public relations department. As independent sources show up, the article could be edited, but there are currently no publications other than the group's site that offer information on it. That is not to say the group is not well-known, just that it has not been written about. Anyway, if it didn't meet the criteria for speedy deletion, you shouldn't have deleted it.- Mike corsillo 21:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      • That is the very definition of an article that should be soundly deleted by AfD. Misplaced Pages is not a substitute for your public relations department, and if you yourselves are the only source, then, per WP:V, you need to come back again when you are not. Anyone opting to keep this article in a hypothetical future AfD would need to have extraordinarily good reasons for violating two core policies. -Splash 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Special:Undelete/Bronx Underground shows no deleted edit history. What article is this DRV about? --- Charles Stewart 20:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete/Overturn. The article may be an ad but that is not one of the criteria for speedy deletion. Rhobite 20:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Inappropriate speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. The article will just be immediately listed on AfD and deleted anyway, especially since the author has made it perfectly clear that they are trying to use Misplaced Pages as their own private PR firm. User:Zoe| 02:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That was not my intention by any means. I was in no way trying to use Misplaced Pages as a PR firm. We don't need a PR firm. I was just trying to contribute an unbiased article about what the Bronx Underground is. We have absolutely no desire to use this site as a PR firm. Maybe when I said we dont have PR department, I should have said we don't need one. All of our advertising is done by word of mouth. The entry does not give any information about show times or prices or list any of the merch we offer. The only reason it links to the website is because that makes sense. If the article does not survive the AfD, that is fine. But I don't appreciate being shafted based on speculation of its future.
    • I'm not into bureaucracy, but there's something to be said for following existing processes. Are you saying that because the AfD outcome appears to be obvious, we shouldn't even go through the motions? It has happened before that a subject which appeared to be headed for deletion turned out to be notable and turned into a good article. I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just saying we shouldn't deviate from the AfD process on a whim. Rhobite 03:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and list on AfD: invalid speedy, deleted within 3 minutes of creation, article appears non-speediable. Non-speediable articles deserve their hearing on AfD, and the topic looks capable of attracting worthwhile content. Endorsing out of process speedies is not what Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy is about. --- Charles Stewart 15:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and Afd I suppose. Altho I fear the Afd may turn into a fiasco which nicely illustrates everything that's wrong with Afd. Friday (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD, unless someone can point to a proper speedy criterion. If people think there are holes in the speedy process, they should be closed, not created as we go along on this page. -- SCZenz 00:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and afd. It is exactly this kind of invalid speedy that keeps the community from trusting administrators with an "obvious spam" or similar speedy criterion. —Cryptic (talk) 18:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Beer boxing

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Beer boxing

I would like an undeletion of the most recent article on beer boxing. According to the Misplaced Pages:Undeletion_policy#To_request_that_a_page_.28or_image.29_be_restored " The speedy deletion criterion for "reposted content that was deleted according to deletion policy " only applies if the content is "substantially identical" (under any article title) — not if you added a lot of new information." Not only was the latest version of the article completely different from previous versions, but the original reasons for deletion are voided by the very fact that there is even a debate over its deletion. If the game of Beer Boxing is a notable enough drinking game to cause a debate, why is it not notable enough to warrant its own article? Furthermore, it is obvious to all who care to review the vote for deletion that half of the votes are for personal objection to the drinking game itself, rather than the content of the article or noteworthiness of the game. Lastly, should the notableness of the game remain under question, I would like to point out the arbitrariness of that judgement. Beer boxing is definitely as or more notable than many other drinking games listed. Mike corsillo 08:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse deletion, unless nominator can provide sources. - Mgm| 08:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • what sources would you have me provide? all versions of the article have been deleted, but having never read previous versions of the article, the most recent version could not have possibly been identical in content or substance. furthermore, i have no way of proving the notableness of this game, nor any other. similarly, nobody can disprove it, thus qualifying the standards for what is notable as completely arbitrary. My argument speaks for itself. Mike corsillo 10:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      Please see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources for information on the types of sources that are typically looked for to support an article. I did a quick Google search to see if there was anything obvious to help support the article and found nothing but this. Unfortunately the only hit was on a site that accepts anonymous submissions, and is thus disqualified from being used as a source for a Misplaced Pages article. --Allen3  14:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      If there are no other sites where people can look this up, isn't that even more reason for this site to allow information to be provided? I dont understand why an encyclopedia would only offer information that is already offered by other websites. Way to "be bold," everybody. -Mike corsillo 21:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      That is a crucial point. An encyclopedia is a tertiary source. It doens't create information (a primary source), and it doesn't report on the creation (a secondary source). It reports that others have found the information to be accurate and reliable (and encyclopedic). An encyclopedia that reported unsubstantiated material wouldn't be very encyclopedic, would it? It is very clear that you didn't read WP:V. As soon as you do, you will see exactly what is being said here. -Splash 22:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion as per MacGyverMagic. --Allen3  14:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Trollaxor

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Trollaxor

I would like a review of the AFD procedure for this article -- the verdict was no consensus and much of the voting appears suspicious. Not only has the article been deleted before, but it remains non-notable and unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and only remains because of the efforts of a group gaming the AFD system. My solution was to redirect it rather than delete it and try to force someone to take notice... which it least would spare the efforts of future AFDs after it was recreated, and avoid yet more running around in circles cleaning up junk. - Motor (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. You're not wrong to try redirecting—anyone can do that—but it's clear from the article history that it's not gonna fly with the people who disagree with you. At 8-5 to delete (discounting user with 8 edits), you could AfD it again, but I'd personally recommend working out some sort of merge/redirect compromise on the talk page. -- SCZenz 01:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • And Relist. If organized trolls are really the problem, then out-vote them. But I can't see a justification for discounting them—perhaps someone can explain? -- SCZenz 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete almost a speedy. Those voting keep seem to be a part of some organised group of trolls (except Trollderella, who is just an extreme inclusionist).  Grue  13:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
It's an indication of the sorry state that we're in that advocating following policy is 'extremism'. Trollderella 23:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
And what policy would that be? --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, but not because the Afd was done wrong. The closure as a "no consensus" was reasonable, although not what I would have done. Of course, the article could also be speedied right now as a perfectly valid A7. Friday (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    So you don't think that the afd was wrong? It's clearly not a valid CSD, so you're really just saying you disagree with the result. Trollderella 22:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    I suppose that CSD A7 doesn't explicitly say that when it talks about articles making a claim of notability, it pertains to a notion of notability that stems from the community as a whole, rather than the ideas of the particular deleting admin. That seems rather obviously true, however. If the community has just now come to no consensus about whether a subject is notable, it would seem obvious that A7 does not apply. Friday's application of the unilateral admin action model here is probably unwise. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    What application of the "unilateral admin action model"? I didn't delete it, did I? I merely stated an opinion that an A7 could be applied here. But, I'll be clear: the reason I say "overturn and delete" is that Afd produced the wrong answer in this case. I'm not against doing a deletion "in process" either, altho at this point I'm not sure how that's possible. If we start another Afd tomorrow and it's closed as a delete, we'll still have people complaining that the second Afd was invalid because of the previous "no consensus" closure. But, if we want to look at the Afd process, I could say that it was tainted by troll involvement. Of course, this is a judgement call and it's a bit rude to those we're calling trolls, right? Friday (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    By "application of the unilateral admin action model" I meant your statement that the article would be a valid A7 -- to say this implies your belief that an admin can determine that an article doesn't make a claim of notability, even when the sense of the community has been determined (to whatever degree), and the community of users does not agree that there is no such claim. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    What I meant was, someone looking at it could reasonably say "Gosh, writing on websites isn't an assertion of notability". Thus, it's an A7. I'm not going to delete it as an A7 because I know it's being discussed, and deleting it right now would be rude to other editors. Also, I fully realize that other reasonable editors could look at this article and decide it's not an A7 speedy. Friday (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I am disturbed that most of the votes here are based on opinion, rather than process, which is contrary to what Deletion Review is for. I have a few questions that I'd like to see addressed:
    1. Is this really a legitimate speedy delete? It seems that at least a few people think the article contains assertions of notability, at which point WP:CSD A7 says it should go to AfD.
    2. Can editors be discounted merely because of their afilliation with whatever organized trolling group? I see no reason for this.
  • I'm the first person to say this article should be deleted, but I say do it within process. Anyone care to explain why we shouldn't, as is apparently going to happen? -- SCZenz 23:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. The point here is not whether this article should stay or go, that's what AFD is for. It is the attempt to hijack process by a small group who can't accept a community decision. Trollderella 23:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There's irony for you. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm dissapointed by any claims that editor's recommendations should be discounted simply because of who they are. I don't care if someone is a GNAA sleeper admin who is secretly impregnating our life parters to breed an army of child-eating Liberal voters, if they present a coherent assertion we should listen to it. In this instance that was not done, with some simply saying "keep". Thus Overturn and delete because AfD is not a vote, and compelling arguments were not presented. - brenneman 00:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Your argument is sound, up until you make the case that because you don't like the reasons given then the community can be ignored. If you think it should be deleted, list it again and get a concensus. Trollderella 00:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I wasn't aware of the alleged GNAA "trolling" until I was informed about it after I closed the debate, so if the decision is overturned, there won't be any opposition from me. No vote. Robert 00:26, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
We seem to be using the word 'troll' in the sense of 'voting in a way I don't like'. That's disturbing. If you don't like the outcome of AFD, relist, don't try a backdoor to try to work around a community decision. Trollderella 00:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I have no opinion either way. I was merely stating that, before closure, I wasn't aware of what is now being argued by those in favor of overturning. Hence, I didn't vote. Robert 00:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. Motor is right: some of the "Keep" votes on the AfD are highly-suspect, being low-usage accounts set up primarily for voting on AfDs, as careful examination of their contribution history shows. However, this depth of scrutiny cannot be expected from an admin closing an AfD, and even with this additional information it is not obvious whether these dubious "Keep" votes can be legitimately discarded. Robert was right to close this as a no-consensus. If you do decide to re-nominate the article, I hope we'll get enough participation as to make the few sock- or meat-puppets' votes irrelevant. Owen× ☎ 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That is not correct, I'm afraid. The notion that cursorily closing complex AfDs is ok is profoundly wrong. If an admin hasn't the time required to do the job properly, they should steer very well clear of the job. -Splash 21:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. Please respect community decisions and stop accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet. Give proofs or shut up. -- Femmina 16:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • "few sockpuppets" =/= "accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet", no matter how you bend the English language. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Please note that my objections stem from the fact that simply saying "keep" should be discounted by any closing admin, regardless of whom it originates from. It's not a vote. - brenneman 23:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looks like for the GNAA and their War on Blogs, some websites are more equal than others. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looking at the VfD, I see what looks like bloc voting by GNAA members, and no reasoning by the "keep" voters. --Carnildo 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment - I don't think this should be used as an opportunity to vent frustration at editors you don't like. If you disagree with the outcome, re-list it. Trollderella 01:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • If the purported trolls lift their game and put "Keep - per nominator, this author is notable per " than we wouldn't be having this discussion. The quality of the anti-blog nominations they were making went up when prompted, there is no reason that almost anyone can't be molded into a good contributor. brenneman 01:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If deletion policy mentioned 'notability' even once your point might be relevant. If you don't like the result of a community process, re-run it. Trollderella 16:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Forget notability, I don't see how Trollaxor is verifiable, and that IS a policy. There's discussion on the talk page about it. My position is that his own postings do not make him verifiable. Friday (talk) 17:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I would overturn and delete, since it is a valid A7, but since there have been complaints about it, the only course of action that I consider appropriate is a relist with a minimum participation treshhold, like done for GNAA. Titoxd 17:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, discounting obvious role accounts is good practice. Contrary to what OwenX says, such scrutiny is appropriate, and if an AFD closer neglects it, then deletion review is appropriate. Radiant_>|< 18:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete in accordance with the reasoning advanced by Radiant! and Aaron Brenneman, particularly Aaron Brenneman's. Plus, as I see it, even if there was no consensus to delete, there was a consensus (Motor, Starblind, and Friday in explicit agreement with several others in implied agreement, and only Skrewler in explicit disagreement) that it constituted vanity, which overrides the consensus. Plus, I see a more clearly articulated consensus that the subject matter is unnoteworthy, and interpretations of de jure policy notwithstanding (I, for instance, believe WP:NOT and the deletion policy both explicitly establish non-notability as grounds for deletion), it's de facto part of the deletion policy. In all, I believe a consensus was reached, and that consensus was for deletion. The Literate Engineer 01:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse as the AfD was valid, and no new information has been presented. Although some of the accounts were young, none were created after the AfD as far as I can tell. This is a very close call however, and while we should respect the closing admin's decision, I would strongly recommend an immediate relisting. Turnstep 19:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

November 20

Joseph Vargo and Nox Arcana

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph Vargo

Please review facts, dates, publishing credits, and Google and/or Amazon search on the discussion page, and relist these articles. I had provided dates and specific publications where these artists were mentioned, press runs of said publications, television shows, qty of books and/or CDs sold, etc. (all in keeping with the guidelines for notability), then later edited content to focus more on facts as some editors seemed to think a biography is a vanity thing. None of the editors seems to have even looked at that info before deleting the entire page (one mistook a band's website for a store when it is not, though a musical group is certainly allowed to sell thier own music). Ideally, I'd like my original content relisted from 10:26, 4 November 2005. Once relisted, I intend to add the dates and specific references from discussion under a separate heading on that main page. And... I am totally new to this maze. But am learning. I've made a few scant contributions to other pages while a non-registered user (this was before I learned that my username was not coming up, or how to sign off :)Blooferlady 00:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted, valid AfD, and the originator (the editor above) should not be rewarded for having vandalized the AfD page. User:Zoe| 03:00, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Both are copyvios from and . (In fact, the first chunk of Nox Arcanal isn't on either of those links, but the rest is and the first chunk is blatantly taken from somewhere on the site). To admins: note that Joseph Vargo has been constructed in a slightly different order and changes a few words, but is overwhelmingly an infringement: it even repeats the spelling mistake in "influencial". Now, there is a confusing release of sorts in those links: "permission to reprint biographies is hereby granted to press and public forums...Copyright © 1991-2005 Monolith Graphics. All rights reserved." That's not good enough for Misplaced Pages, since its content can be reused by anyone for any purpose, and that is effectively a "with conditions" release that is directly incompatible with the GFDL. Now, Talk:Joseph Vargo claims to have permission, but I don't see any point following that up if AfD has already deleted the articles. -Splash 17:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Validly deleted in process. I wasn't going to comment here since I listed it for deletion, but Blooferlady, who claims to be Vargo, has already re-created Joseph Vargo both on his user page and at least once in the main namespace and is demanding that I undelete. —Cryptic (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Blooferlady here to request the deletion be revoked and to state some inaccuracies in regards to Cryptic's comments. Firstly, I am not Vargo himself. He doesn't even own a computer (read the bio, why don'tcha!). I am Christine Filipak, his partner, webmaster, and business manager. I have known him for 17 years and have been privy to everything stated in his bio, the majority of which was written by ME, then I asked Joseph Iorillo (Vargo's official biographer, who has known him for 20 years and who wrote the bio for the art book) to help me redraft a better, more factual version of the bio. Iorillo helped to clean up my earlier draft, using a good portion of what he already provided for the art book (which is copyrighted and registered by yours truly). I also researched the dates of various publications and appearances from actual signed contracts between Vargo and the various broadcast companies and/or publishers. So all of your prior complaints of copyright infringement are baseless. Believe me, if there was any copyright infringement happening, I also have Power of Attorney for Vargo and would take immediate action. (NOTE: It is equally an infringement of copyright to deny an author of a particular work to claim that authorship). Cryptic, I ask you just WHO would be an acceptable biographer, some fan who never met this artist?
    • Yes, actually, that would be better. That person would go and do their research, find reliable sources to cite and not fall foul of anything in WP:AUTO. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Whether you are Vargo or his business partner isn't particularly relevant, as you still have a direct financial interest in promoting him. I note that you have exactly zero edits to Misplaced Pages, either under your username or editing anonymously, that are not related to Vargo, his company, or his bands. Furthermore, as several of those commenting below are insiting on commenting on the content, rather than the deletion process as WP:DRV demands, it should be pointed out that all of the music and nearly all of the publications on the page's current incarnation are self-published; and that we have a bit of jargon on Misplaced Pages for those who cite their personal experiences and own work: original research. —Cryptic (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have provided my email in earlier discussions to all the editors (Cryptic, you included). I never once DEMANDED anything of you, so don't go putting that spin on things. I was totally new to this site before two weeks ago, and was not aware of the deletion process until the page was actually removed. I was instructed by two other editors to "move" the revised page back into place from my User Page after they both agreed to the revisions. Check the discussions at and on my own talk page
  • As to notoriety, the Wiki guidelines state very plainly what criteria must be met, and I have provided all the information required. Likewise, the simple Google search criteria has been met (and exceeded.) If you cannot see that this is a valid article, then I have about 20 other articles I would like to submit for deletion based on the same reasons that Cryptic has provided. Blooferlady 15:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • undelete - It looks to me like Vargo is sufficiently notable to be included. If copyright paperwork is necessary it sounds like it will be forthcoming. Language that is overly promotional for an encyclopedia can be corrected in the normal course of editing; Any original research likewise. Tom Harrison 16:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete - As per Tom Harrison. Creator has shown willingness to work within Wiki-standards, cut out POV where identified, et cetera. Should assume good faith that questions about copyright status will be addressed. --CBD C 16:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I observe of course that Blooferlady has been spamming talk pages, mine included, about this debate. My opinion stands. AfD deleted this, and no new information is available now that was not available then. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Whilst my previous statement is true, I get the impression from hypothetically constructing an AfD nomination of my own that there may be elements of at least Joseph Vargo's biography that could cause debate at AfD — a debate probably obscured by the outright vanity of the previous article. Nox Arcana really aren't very interesting except for the association with Vargo; they should probably only be mentioned within his article. Given that, a re-run of the AfD on a newly written article might make sense. If Blooferlady really wants it, the previous one can be undeleted and re-AfD'd but it was pretty sickly and would deserve re-deletion. I'm not interested in the copyright questions, since the tone of the article was the tone of a promotional website and there is no question that such is not what we want. Allow recreation and then AfD it. If as suggested above, Blooferlady plans to operate with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, then the AfD may be worthwhile. -Splash 17:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Splash: Spamming was never intended. It was stated by Cryptic that no one had voted to undelete HERE in this discussion, though they had approved the revised article in other discussion. Mr. Harrison also suggested that when leaving comments in talk pages to alert the user that a comment had been posted. I simply wanted to point out that this seems to be where the vote is counted. I still don't know what Afd means. Look, if it's all that big of a deal, just forget it. I'll just go and submit a deletion for everything I have contributed, including Joseph's earlier band project 1. Blooferlady 01:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • People often try to browbeat people into participating partisanly in (un)deletion debates — it generally meets with a chilly reception, and I'm sorry you were guided otherwise. You appear to have learnt what AfD is, though. I don't honestly know why you've suddenly blanked everyhting and now want everything deleted: at least two of us here (me and Zoe below) have said that, if you write the articles neutrally and factually they can be recreated (but possibly subject to an AfD). FWIW, I don't think the new version of Nox Arcana meets the WP:NPOV requirement because it is just your opinion that they write haunting music. Find some reliable media source agreeing with you and cite it, would be a good way to start. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Despite Blooferlady's spamming of my Talk page, I stand by my vote above. The AfD was valid. If she wants to rewrite the articles to make them follow WP:BIO and WP:VAIN, and they do so, then I have no objections to their being recreated. BTW, Blooferlady, as a Dracula fan and a fan of vampire lit in general, I love your User name. User:Zoe| 01:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I've put this section back in, since it was removed and replaced with a {db} tag, and a rather annoyed sounding message about wanting to withdraw the request. I just wanted to point out that Nox Arcana is blue again — if anyone wants to anything about it. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I'm learning and was really frustrated, still am a bit. This place is a maze of talk pages. Thanks for the compliment on my user name. I was surprised it was not already taken. Anyway, I really ripped apart my articles, deleting anything other than style description and publishing credits, and therefore I wanted to dump all the old discussion and begin anew. Guess that isn't happening. As for "haunting"... If I quote sources (such as reviews which refer to the music as "haunting") then I'll get slammed for that. If I try to describe the theme, I get slammed. If you want me to cite a source HERE (not on the article page), then I suppose would be the most well known source. The term haunting is universal, as in haunted houses, which uses the term "fightening" in it's description. Haunting is a subtler version of frightening as are creepy, eerie, unsettling, etc. As to another doing their own research, that's fine, and I leave the list of sources to anyone who wishes to dig deeper. The whole reason I began this little quest is because I was alerted to a page that was started which held inaccuracies. I admit that I got carried away in trying to account for everything, but now, I guess I'd prefer that his bio be vague than have it be incorrect. Too much has already been printed that is vague and I thought it would help to be clear and exact in detail.

United Bimmer

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United Bimmer

Would it be possible to undelete this article? It was created by a member to explain the history and foundation of our community. It's a very tight-knit group of members, and this article has been referenced many times explaining people who we are and where we came from. There's no advertising in here, as it's simply informative about the history of an organization, which I feel is appropriate in an Encyclopedia.

  • Endorse clsoe (keep deleted). The AfD looks valid, and being a "tight-knit group" if anything suggests lack of intest to thsoe outsiede the group. wikipedia is not a free hosting service, an article describing the group for the benefit of those interested in jopining properly belongs on your own web site. I see no independent sources cited in the article, and no indication that it is in any way notable to anyoen outside the group. If you have such info, create a new article which cites it and expalins how the gorup is significant to those who are not members. DES 17:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted valid (and unanimous) AfD! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

contingent work

Can we undelete this article? There doesn't appear to be any valid reason for its deletion. Sure, the name of the article is something of a neologism, but one which is frequently used when discussing social issues, comparing contingent work with proper jobs.

We do have an article about McJobs, which is also a neologism, and admittedly the two subjects have a fair bit of common ground. However, a serious commentator on employment policy wouldn't use the term McJobs. I think there is enough ground for them to be two separate articles.

To be honest, I don't understand why Misplaced Pages doesn't want people to know what contingent work is, and the history behind it. Squashy 10:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

To put this into context: Contingent work was the subject of a VfD in July 2005, and the result was its deletion. Squashy created a new article, which I deleted, explaining to him the reasons. He then recreated it, as well as asking for it to be undeleted here. Let's assume that that that was a mistake of some kind; still, the proper thing for him to do now is to follow the prescribed course. I did advise him to take it to Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:45, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist. The majority of the comments in the original AfD debate labeled the initially deleted version of the article as an essay or original research, with the minority opinion claiming the article was savable but needed to go through cleanup. Squashy's new version appears to be a complete rewrite that does not suffer from the original's problem of being a personal essay. As such, I do not believe that a speedy deletion as recreation of previously deleted material is justified. --Allen3  12:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete -- invalid speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist". Don't recreate without good reason, a re-write is good reason.Voice of All 14:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the comments so far. I appreciate that the article I've written is far from perfect - and I haven't cited any sources yet - however, the majority of the votes in favour of its deletion were concerned with its content - that it was a personal essay - and not due to any inherent flaw in having an article on the subject in the first place. I appreciate that it's a neologism - but then again, so are many of the articles at Category:Neologisms - that's not a good enough reason to keep it deleted, in my opinion. I have created this article from scratch, without having access to the original article which was deleted before it - however, I have lost some of my most recent edits to it. Thanks. Squashy 15:31, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn the speedy deletion. The first deletion was in order as deletion of a personal essay (and, in my opinion, probably copyvio). The versions created beginning on 15 Nov 2005 were not substantially similar content. The speedy delete criterion should not have applied. As for the most recent version, I see no reason to immediately list it for AFD. It's a new article that still needs cleanup but that's normal. The topic is certainly relevant and encyclopedic since a number of reputable articles have links to it. Rossami (talk) 16:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The consensus seems clear, so I've undeleted the article, But I'm not sure if a relist is appropriate, so I'll leave that still under consideration. Titoxd 21:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


Hellogoodbye

Can we please get this undeleted? The page is now redirected to a Beatles song, which is just incorrect. The original page was deleted. At the RFD debate, it was claimed it didn't meet WP:MUSIC. This is untrue, however, the band has "gone on ... a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country", that country being the US (see hellogoodbye's site ), and has been "prominently featured in any major music media" (receiving plenty of press coverage including and their video on MTV). Whatsmore, there are over 300,000 hits on Google and they are signed to a major label (Drivethru Records). Additionally, they've only released an EP and a DVD: not quite the 2 albums suggested, but not far off. Halo 12:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

November 19

CrystalCherry

Needs to be returned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs) 06:06, 2005 November 19 (UTC)

Why? --Nlu 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Brian Peppers

The page is protected, and, judging from the talk page, it looks like there is significant support for unprotection. zellin t / c 03:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

AFD discussion - note: this link also covers several subsequent discussions. Apparently, the discussion was twice improperly restarted on the same page rather than creating new discussion pages.
  • Strong oppose. The same reasons why it doesn't belong still exist, however. The fact that we have "significant support for unprotection" (almost all of it from anonymous IPs) doesn't mean that it should be undeleted. It will be a magnet for vandalism, and there is no way to do it tastefully. Misplaced Pages does not have to go with the flow of the Internet on this. --Nlu 03:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse the original deletion and the subsequent speedy-deletion as re-created content. This "article" has no place in Misplaced Pages. Looking at the pervasive history of vandalism through the page history, I also endorse the protection of the page to prevent re-creation. Rossami (talk) 06:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted valid VfD. Also, some topics just plain aren't encyclopedic. Peppers did something naughty. Nobody seems to know the exact nature of his crime, but it couldn't possibly have been anything earth-shattering, since he only got 30 days for it. He also happens to have some sort of condition or physical deformity. That's it. Fails WP:BIO by a wide margin. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD. BDAbramson T 16:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy. Vandalism is specifically listed as a Problem that does not require deletion. WP:BIO is not an official policy. If it was, we would have a lot less articles now. There certainly is a way to do it tastefully! The reason why many feel he deserves an article is not because he is a minor sex offender and not even because he has a minor deformity but because he is an internet phenomenon. He is certainly notable enough for Misplaced Pages on those grounds. zellin t / c 17:03, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - This alleged "Internet phenomenon" fails to live up to the standards of "It's a trap!" or "All your base" or whatever. "Brian Peppers" gets just 26,900 Google hits. Compare "All your base" scoring nearly 1 million. Misplaced Pages is not a repository for anything anyone ever laughed at on a forum. I expect alleged Internet phenomena to display an above-average level of interest to be worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages. FCYTravis 17:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, per FCYTravis.--Sean|Black 21:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Not every "internet phenomenon" is worth documenting in an encyclopedia, as I've already argued on the talk page. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-19 21:53:10Z
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Process-wise, it is a valid deletion/protection against recreation, and content-wise, please, it is an attack page/non-notable bio. Titoxd 21:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Making fun of someone for looking bizarre is NOT encyclopaedic. The 30-day jail sentence is just a red herring; are you listing all the other non-notable sex offenders who received a minor 30-day sentence? Also, by the wording, simply touching a person on the thigh could constitute a "sex offense." I'm not endorsing this person, just saying that the only reason this became a minor internet phenomenon is because of what this person looks likeRyoung122 23:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: The deleted content is being effectively re-created in the article's Talk page. It is unusual to re-delete an article's Talk page especially since the "protected" template explicitly says "talk about it there" but it may be appropriate in this case to clean out and protect the Talk page as well. Rossami (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: It is obvious that this is a lost cause but I just want to point out:
To the people who said he served a 30-day sentence and is thus not notable, no one would argue he is notable on those grounds. He is notable because he is an internet phenomenon.
And, sure, it is not up to All your base but is Sealand up to China? Of course not but the fact that we have such a comprehensive article on Sealand is part of the reason why Misplaced Pages is so great. zellin t / c 17:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Fúsíjama Basketball Club International

This was a infopage about my basketball team in Iceland. Not quite sure why it was deleted but if someone thinks this was just a ego boost or something, this basketball team played in the 2nd league in the Icelandic division. Please undelete :) Einzi

No article by that exact title was ever created or deleted. Could you perhaps have mistyped the title? Rossami (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Could be .. chanced the name to a right title ( I hope ) Einzi 11:24, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
Thank you. and AFD discussion
  • Undelete and list on AfD - I vote for this page to be undelated. The info found on the page was historicly accurate and not meant to be an ego boost in any way. --- Sturlast 11:48, 19 November 2005
  • Endorse Hm. Valid AfD at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Fúsíjama_Basketball_Club_International, and though the team claims to be playing in the 2nd division (third level) of Icelandic basketball , I can find no evidence of that at the neutral source here: (or maybe it's me not understanding Icelandic properly). Overturn and relist. New information brought to light. Sam Vimes 13:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Allthough the name Fúsíjama can't be found we played under the flags of Reynir Hnífsdal to avoid troubleling paperwork and expenses. Einzi 15:09, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Have to agree with Sam Vimes. In general, amateur sports clubs are not considered to be valid topics, you almost need to either be, or been, in the top league to be considered unless the sport is really major in that country. The premier league basketball clubs in Iceland are OK topics, amateur clubs are just to numerous. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete The team played in the Icelandic 2nd division from 1999-2005 . The team is registered under the name Reynir Hnífsdal, as the Icelandic Sport Federation does not allow teams to compete under foreign names in domestic leagues. It was however widly recognised under the name Fúsíjama as can been seen here on KKÍ´s homepage (KKÍ is the Icelandic Basketball Federation). The reason for the deletion is said to be that it could not be confirmed that Fúsíjama actually played in official divsion, I belive that should be comfirmed now. Also I disgree with that only major clubs should be allowed on Misplaced Pages. The goal of Misplaced Pages is to create, among others, the largest encyclopedia in history in both breadth and depth. Discriminating official sport teams because they haven´t reached the top level of their country´s competition, and even if they are a fairly well known team in their country, is by my opinion at least, not in the spirit of that goal. Sturlast 18:57, 19 November 2005 (GMT).
    • Fair point. At least that's new, verifiable information, and the judgment of whether that is notable enough for WP should be done at AfD, not here. I would suggest you rewrote it, though, because from what I could gather from the AfD nomination the content was violating NPOV Sam Vimes 19:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

November 14

Category:Soviet spies

Was not deleted and split due to lack of consensus on CfD. This fact is immaterial, as the category is hopelessly POV, and the community is not empowered to vote away NPOV rules. Phil Sandifer 06:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Edit: I'm saying that the category should be deleted or split regardless of supposed consensus or lack thereof, because it is in flat violation of existing policy, and a CfD vote cannot overrule NPOV. Phil Sandifer 07:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I'm confused: what's being asked here? --Calton | Talk 07:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that Snowspinner is requesting a review of the closing of the CfD vote based on a supposed lack of consensus, because the category is inherently based on a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. The category includes individuals who have not been convicted of or even charged with spying, such as Harry Magdoff. As it was pointed out in the CfD discussion, the existence of this category puts Wikipeida at risk for a defamation suit. 172 07:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I thought this page was for review of stuff that's been deleted already, not a second shot at AfD or CfD.
      • In any case, I suggest being bold:
      • There's more than one way to skin an NPOV cat, as it were. --Calton | Talk 07:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Yes, however when clear evidence that something is not NPOV has been provided, it has to go, and no amount of foot-stamping can make a difference. I would have simply been bold, but I'm tired of the backbiting that ensues when one is bold in ways that people disagree with. Phil Sandifer 07:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Shrug. Like the Nike slogan goes, Just Do It. Like I said, if the supporters want the category, they have to use it properly (make bed, lie in it, etc) instead of using it as a kind of McCarthyite club to beat their opponents with. BTW, I went ahead and created Category:Accused Soviet spies: I'd populate it immediately, but I gotta go now. --Calton | Talk 08:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This page isn't just for review of what's deleted; it is for reviewing any decision related to deletion. So yes, a close-as-no-consensus is reviewable, especially if the object to be deleted is in violation of one of our core policies. But here the problem doesn't seem to be the existence of the cat, but the fact that it's used wrongly. I'd say a viable solution would be to rename the cat to Category:Alleged Soviet spies and put in a cat redir, then add a cat Category:Convicted Soviet spies. Radiant_>|< 10:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As usual, Radiant is correct. Great idea! Xoloz 19:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close do not delete or rename out of process. While snowspinner is correct that a consensus on CfD cannot over-ride the NPOV policy, the question of whether this category is inherently PoV, or is simply being used in a PoV way, or indeeed is neither, is a factual question, properly to be determind by the specific consensus in a CfD discussion. This should remain until theere is a consensus to rename or delete it. I woudl advise submitting a new ans separate CfD nomination aimed specifically at a rename as a first step towards User:Radiant's solution. Remember that unlike articels, categorys are only suppsoed to be renamed by consensus, and that CfD handles renames as well as deletions. If anyone incorrectly applies "Be Bold" to this non-editing action, and renames or deletes this category unilaterally, the action should be summeraily reversed and the actor admonished at a minimum. DES 20:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • In the case of a contentious topic and what it would be understatement to call "serious questions" about the fairness of the trials and judicial system on, I think the POV questions are pretty clear cut. Phil Sandifer 00:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, moving of categories is handled at CfD, but that's largely only a convenience as far as I know. Moving articles to a different category is an editing action, and can be done at any time by anyone who thinks it improves the Wiki. All the stuff in this category needs to be fixed regardless of the AfD result, and be bold clearly applies. -- SCZenz 02:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I've gone ahead and been bold in recategorizing several people for whom there is no evidence of an admission of espionage or a conviction for an espionage-related crime. FCYTravis 01:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Mazel tov. Each of the articles is watched by a contingent of editors with a quite a strong ideological bent. If bets were being taken on Misplaced Pages, I'd place a pretty large sum on your efforts at recategorizing some of the individuals getting reverted in no less than 12 hours. 172 01:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
      • What, to me, is really ugly, are all the people pages named "John Doe (spy)" - that's just a flat-out accusation in the very page title. FCYTravis 02:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
        • I've done some recategorizing myself, and Lord, it's a mess: I can see why Snowspinner was bothered by this. Many of the ones I've come across are so blatantly POV, like the one that began, Samuel Dickstein (5 February 1885 - 22 April 1954) was a Democratic Congressional Representative from New York, a New York State Supreme Court Justice, and spy for the Soviet Union, whose only proof or backing was "The VENONA Project says so."
        • Click around on articles from Category:Soviet spies and you'll find far worse examples, substubs beginning with the form "NAME graduated from UNIVERSITY. In 19XX, he worked for AGENCY, and was a Soviet spy"; they usually contain little actual biographical detail (missing things such as, you know, YEAR of birth or death, actual life accomplishments or jobs, legal entanglements or verdicts, etc.); nothing except "SPY SPY SPY says the Venona Project".
        • And if the cats get reverted; well, the reverters with strong ideological bent wouldn't have a policy leg to stand on, since NPOV trumps their ideology every time. --Calton | Talk 02:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus: As DES said, there is no POV violation in the existence of the category, only in the part of the pages that includes them in the category. Good for FCYTRavis in fixing. The CfD discussion (which had no delete votes besides the proposer, only keep and rename votes) has a suggestion by User:TJive to start the category Category:Americans named in VENONA, which seems appropriate here. --- Charles Stewart 19:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Recently concluded

  1. Megan racing: kept deleted
  2. Mimi Yu: kept deleted, no prejudice against recreation if sources are given
  3. Body parts slang: kept deleted
  4. Bananas come from Pluto: kept deleted
  5. Rules of Make Believe: kept deleted
  6. Innovism: kept deleted
  7. Leeroy Jenkins: kept redirected, since after a lengthy discussion there was no majority, let alone a consensus, to overturn.
  8. Yoism: kept deleted
  9. Fuckfrance: kept deleted.
  10. GnuFU: undeleted, pending transwiki to Wikibooks.
  11. Niki Ashton: speedy undeleted and posted at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Niki Ashton.
  12. Nayla bint Farasa: kept deleted
  13. Regret: speedy undeleted, not posted AFD; G4 speedy was invalid, as article was entirely different from the originally deleted one
  14. William Renner: kept deleted
  15. Diary-X: undeleted, posted at AFD: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Diary-X 2

November 28, 2005

AutoExtra.com

I would like for this business name to be reconsidered for addition into wikipedia - for reasons similiar to Amazon.com being included. AutoExtra.com is a business name (including the .com!) and as such has a place in the index for background and extra information regarding the business.--Adam

  • Note: article was speedied as linkspam. Presumably you could rewrite it using neutral point of view and avoiding spam and it couldn't be speedy deleted. However, I also suggest that you take a look at WP:CORP to see if AutoExtra.com meets typical community standards for notable businesses. We have an article on Amazon because they were very large and groundbreaking. -- SCZenz 22:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and send to afd. The deleted revisions are linkspam and shouldn't be in an independent article, but I don't think the most recent version was blatant enough to speedy. The site itself has a credible Alexa rank of 13,174 and several Google news hits, so may well survive the full afd process if expanded. On the other hand, we already have a proper, if short, article at AutoExtra, and I suspect consensus will be to merge it there. —Cryptic (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and list, because I'm pretty sure the outcome will be merge or redirect, but I'm not sure which one. Titoxd 23:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and redirect to AutoExtra. Or, if there's nothing but linkspam in the old versions of AutoExtra.com, just keep deleted and redirect. Either way, no reason to have a separate article, and no reason to keep an obvious redirect to a currently-existing article shut down. There's no reason to have an AfD; if there's non-spam content it can be gotten out of the history and merged without all the bureaucracy. -- SCZenz 23:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Merrr

My article on the origin of the word merrr was deleted yesterday and I request it be undeleted as it is an informative article on a pretty big craze that is getting bigger all the time. Theres a good 2000 people who use this term and it is getting more popular each day, so before long this will become something that you the administrators will recognize.

George Alexander (US Army soldier)

See the AfD here.

The AfD debate was long and the closing admin (Sjakkalle), quite rightly couldn't see much consensus. However, now we have the claim that article should be merged into 2003 invasion of Iraq media coverage (which has been done), and this page made a redirect (which has been opposed). Is it too early to begin AfD with this again? --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Relist — with the clear option of the merge stated from the outset. --Gareth Hughes 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • AFD does not decide merge vs keep. --SPUI (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with SPUI. Merge-versus-breakout does not require sysop intervention and is treated as normal editing. Editors involved duke it out discuss it rationally amongst themselves on the Talk pages, reach consensus, etc. The AfD discussion can serve as a talking point, but has no special authority other than a convenient record of what people thought. This is not a matter for WP:AfD or WP:DRV at this point. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above, with the addition that the place to discuss this is Talk:George Alexander (US Army soldier), and the way to draw attention to such a discussion is Misplaced Pages:Requests for comments. Uncle G 20:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment — the reason I listed this here is because the outcome of WP:AFD has been interpreted very differently by different editors, who are currently revert warring. I beleive this is the right place to discuss AfDs that have not worked properly: that is partly why its name was changed. --Gareth Hughes 22:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The outcome of the AfD was no consensus; there certainly wasn't a consensus to merge either (since almost nobody said merge at the AfD). So the disagreement about merging the article has nothing to do with deletion review that I can see. The AfD worked perfectly, revealing there wasn't a consensus to delete the article, which is all it can do; reviewing the workings of an AfD is all that Deletion Review can do. All the editors involved will have to talk it out. -- SCZenz 22:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Packages in Java

I dont think the deletion decision here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Packages in Java was very fair since there were 3 keeps and 3 deletes and it was claimed that there was 2k - 5d. If it deserves a wikibook article, it should have an article here, at least a shorter version which points to the wikibook article. I tried putting up a shorter version of the article (minus the list parts) up but it was deleted again by User:Splash I don't want the article restored to its original state, but made a shorter version than is up at wikibooks. Astrokey44 09:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. Possibly not the call I would've made, but I see how he got it. DanMS and Mgm's comments, although not explicit "votes", do unequivocally support the delete position and are well-reasoned contributions to the discussion. Astrokey44's reasoning was wholly irrelevant and legitimately discounted. That does give 5-2. -- SCZenz 09:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have no strong feelings on the existence-or-not of this article but observe a few things. First, that the "shorter version of the article" was identical to the version I deleted, save for a removal of the long list of packages. Second, numerically, if I were to included Mgm as a delete, it's probably 6d-2k. Third, Astrokey44 has suggested a template linking to Wikibooks: I think this is a good idea, but don't know what the template is. We have something like "Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on <topic> but Wiktionary does <link>" — do we have one for Wikibooks, or do we just have to use {{Wikibookspar|Transwiki|Packages in Java}}? Fourth, I deliberately didn't orphan this article since I rather suspect some Wikipedic article could exist at this title, or a similar one, but the AfD was, I thought, clear enough on this particular offering. -Splash 09:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    I just made one here Template:Wikibooksarticle and put it back on the article as you suggested - can you change it goes straight to the article rather than doing a search? I dont know template code stuff very well. Astrokey44 09:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. If you want to make the wikibook more visible listing it in the external link section of Java programming language and slightly expanding the brief mention packages have there will work better as it provides lots more context. - Mgm| 09:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and keep the soft redirect. I think that having this transwikied with a soft redirect left behind resolves the concerns listed at the AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 26, 2005

List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (2nd nomination)

The administrator himself said that even after accounting for possible sockpuppets the total tally was 21 delete to 12 keep, many keeps of were hasty reactions and yet he still chose no consensus. This is the second time this list has been voted for deletion and the second time it has concluded in no consensus when it's counterparts List of Jews in the Russian Academy of Sciences, List of Jews in the French Academy of Sciences were deleted right off the bat. I repudiate my previous claim for possible bias - I'm just not entirely sure why no consensus reaches the same conclusion as keep in the long run - especially when majority clearly prevailed here. Antidote 19:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close. I see nothing to suggest anything wrong in this close, and the fact that it has survived twice makes it clear to me that this article ought not go anywhere. Phil Sandifer 19:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Notice that is survived both of those deletions with a large amount of deletes compared to minimal keeps - clearly that shows that this list has only survived two deletion attempts because of no consensus conclusions NOT keep conclusions. Antidote 21:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorsre close. It's 63% for deletion, which makes a close of "no consensus" entirely appropriate. Consistency on "Jews in XYZ" lists would be nice, but it's not clear to me how to obtain it. -- SCZenz 19:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close and I voted to delete the article. The closing was correct (or at least totaly reasonable). Antidote says he has a 'sneaking suspicion of bias here', well I don't know how he manages that if he is assuming good faith--Doc 21:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Why this was a no consensus I will never understand as it is clear that lists like this are overtly extraneous and have had a history of deletion. Also I don't see how its fair that a "no consensus" reaches the same conclusion as a keep especially when the majority called for delete. If anything, a no consensus vote should put the article on lockdown until a consensus is reached. Otherwise, keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete. Also you're right, I should assume good faith, and will but the wikipedia deletion system is HORRIBLY flawed if the conclusion is to keep the article now. Antidote 21:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close with a touch of prejudice per Doc. I paused over this on AfD and almost voted delete myself. (I thought): "Criteria is clear. Relevance of main noun to criteria is quite debatable." Did not vote ultimately, but looking at the votes this was closed properly in terms of procedure. To anidote: the onus is on delete in AfD. This is acceptable conservatism. Marskell 21:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn either by re-opening afd or putting article on some type of lockdown - unfortunately, I don't know how to proceed in this case. If 75% if max for delete I suppose reopening the article is the only way to proceed - again, I'm not sure. Antidote 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I know it looks bad but it's the only way I can see to proceed fairly - two no consensus in a row SHOULD NOT equate to a keep. Antidote 21:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes it should. Phil Sandifer 21:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope you're kidding. I suppose next time and AFD vote has 63% delete votes we should just put keep. Antidote 22:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
That is likely what he'd say, in my experience. ;-) To save a pointless argument, may I interject here and suggest that looking into starting a general discussion on List of (Ethnic/religious group) in (Profession) articles would be more productive than AfD'ing this one until you get the result you want? -- SCZenz 22:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not the result that I want, it's the result that should fairly be given. If there is a no consensus then it should not be treated the same as a keep especially concerning majority delete. Given this, I am reluctant to put up another AFD because people will probably take it too seriously and bitch and complain...blah blah. The point is that this list should be given some type of lockdown mode where a consensus CAN be reached. It is the only fair way to proceed. I think the same should be done to List of Roman Catholics. Antidote 22:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And next we can lock all self-identified deletionists and inclusionists in a room until they reach a consensus on a middle school!  ;-) -- SCZenz 23:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yea, clearly I can see you're not taking this seriously. I can't help but be shocked at how unfair this conclusion was. Now there is no way to renominate this list because 3rd AFD would make the keep voters shit their pants and put hysterical keeps...even though a sturdy majority voted delete before and a history of deletions have occurred with lists like this. The system here falls apart. Antidote 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive my levity, but I had a serious point. There are many articles we just won't receive a consensus on, at least not in the forseeable future. Why should these articles be specially locked down in some way? -- SCZenz 23:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a special case in a way - majority voted delete but it still led to an inevitable keep through no consensus. The list in itself is way overextended and all its predecessors have been deleted. It's the loner stander and only based on a lot of keep votes in retaliation for renomination. I think all no consensus articles should be so-called "quaranteened" until a keep or delete decision is reached - but its usually not necessary for those because the keep and deletes are evenly matched and the articles themselves aren't lone standers. It's the equivalent of keeping a List of unicyclists in the National Academy of Medicine - way too detailed and for no purpose. Antidote 00:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
(Resetting indentation)
To be perfectly clear, a lack of consensus to delete means, has always meant, and I expect will always mean that we keep the article. The default position of all articles is "keep." Without a consensus to change that position, the position remains "keep." Phil Sandifer 00:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
So I was correct in saying that keep has a 2 to 1 advantage to delete, even if a majority vote is delete. That doesn't entirely strike me as fairness. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ummm... this isn't some sort of contest between delete and keep where we're interested in a fair fight. Phil Sandifer 01:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Since Misplaced Pages is not paper, if we can't get a consensus to delete a not-so-good article, well, it's not the end of the world. That's why the default action is keep. (And there's no more consensus to "quarantine" than to delete, I'd imagine.) Yes, the debate was close, but I think it's fair to say 21-12 isn't a consensus. It's almost a marginal consensus, true, but that's not too convincing to me. For what it's worth, I agree with you about the article, and I'd support a general discussion on the issues you raise in order to get consistency on this type of list. But I don't see the relevance of this being a "lone stander" if the articles are considered one by one, and the fact that it's "way too detailed and for no purpose" is just your (and my) opinion. -- SCZenz 00:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
How about we open a discussion in the Talk page, and see if we can perhaps make a List of Fellows of the Royal Society and move the Jewish list into that (though I'm not thrilled with having that list either - again - it's seems a bit overextended). But, it's the best thing to do at this point. Unless there's an agreement to create another AFD --- which I highly doubt there will be. Also, I think 21 to 12 is a hefty vote but then again that's just my opinion. The list of Jewish publishers had a 25 to 9 vote or something, and it was deleted. Antidote 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it's quite possible that I'm the only person in this discussion who can give a Royal Institution member's eye view. This article should under no circumstances have been considered for deletion and I don't know why it ever was. If it's ever listed for deletion again the result will be a keep. It would therefore be unwise to attempt to overturn the keep result of the last AfD, in which no consensus to delete was found. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
List of Fellows of the Royal Society would have been marginally acceptable (though I still think it's too extraneous in the long run) but List of Jedi Fellows of the Royal Society, List of Brazilian Fellows of the Royal Society and List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society are not. Antidote 23:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Well within reasonable parametres, so much so in fact, that I think closing it as a delete would have been quite dubious. Two "no consensus" results in a row, means that there was still no consensus, so the article is still kept. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn The article should live. --Marcperkel 15:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The article hasn't been deleted. The discussion was brought here to review whether or not it should, in fact, have been. Overturning the closure (of no consensus) doesn't sound like what you mean. -Splash 16:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. Even though I personally would have voted for deletion, the actual vote doesn't come anywhere near true consensus, and the fact it's survived two AfDs suggests that's not a fluke. Should be kept and should not be re-nominated any time soon. Too bad, but there you have it. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It has survived two afds by only managing a no conesus both with staggering amounts of delete votes---- this is no way suggests that the article is a keeper - all it shows is that its contributors are staunchly proud of their list and wish to keep it - hence pushing many close delete votes to no consensuses - SEE history of deletion of lists of this type. Antidote 23:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

→ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Interchanges on Ontario provincial highway 401

I have tentatively undeleted this and was then notified on my talk page that I should mention this here. I believe there were enough keep votes in the deletion "debate" to warrant keeping this article on the grounds of lack of consensus to delete. I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft". Furthermore, there have been two speedy keep votes and at least two early attempts to speedy-keep the article; I would have been the third to vote speedy keep if I had participated in the "discussion". I didn't because I saw enough keep votes that I didn't think it would be deleted. — Timwi 12:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I re-deleted this. I've no opinion on the article or the legitimacy of the AfD closing, but this is 'Deletion review' not 'undeletion homologation'. Let it be decided here as to whether the stay deleted or not. --Doc 17:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn undeletion (Endorse original AfD). Valid AfD (30 deletes/11 keep/9 merge/1 anon) with a note in the discussion that the information had been merged into Ontario provincial highway 401 during the course of the discussion. As a result of the incorporation of the material into the parent article the only potential difference between deletion and a merge is the creation of a redirect. As the article's name is fairly cumbersome, a decision to delete instead of creating a redirect was within reasonable bounds of administrator discretion. Examination of the merged article does not show any obvious need for splitting things out based on article size. It should also be noted that there were at least as many references to WP:NOT by persons supporting deletion as use of the term roadcruft, so a reason for deletion based on core Misplaced Pages policies was available for anyone wishing to find it. --Allen3  14:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse / KD. Timwi, please read up on our deletion policy. There have been some proposals along the lines of "anything with 5 or more keep votes is automatically kept" but all of these have been rejected. And despite your claim I notice several 'delete' votes with lengthy explanations. Radiant_>|< 19:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted without prejudice. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep merged. It's not deleted, so we shouldn't be discussing an undeletion. To comply with GFDL requirements we need to undelete the history and place a redirect here, so people can see where the material came from and who contributed it. - Mgm| 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Gamaliel 00:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. The consensus at AfD was quite clear. And when you're the 30th vote, there's no need to write a series of long reasoning again. -- SCZenz 00:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This has already been merged into the highway article. The information is still available in Misplaced Pages, and in the form that's more consistent with existing policy (i.e. in the highway article rather than split out), and the numbers involved can pretty safely be described as consensus. There's no particularly overwhelming reason to revisit this. Keep deleted. (FWIW, I wouldn't oppose recreating the title as a redirect to Ontario provincial highway 401, but there's no need to restore the article in its original form.) Bearcat 01:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Consensus was clear. And as for Timwi's rationale for unilaterally undeleting (I put "debate" in quotation marks because the keep votes were the only ones giving arguments, while the delete votes almost universally said nothing other than "roadcruft".), in addition to being insulting (some voters are more equal than others, eh?) is flatly false, as a quick scan of the AfD page will show. --Calton | Talk 04:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - you can't speedy keep after a full vote that ended in a deletion consensus. Retroactive speedy keep based on only the early votes is ridiculous. - Tεxτurε 21:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Judeofascism

I would like to request that we undelete redirect Judeofascism and point it to the relevant article/section. It was deleted on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judeofascism, however due to the fact that Islamofascism is an article in its own right then I feel that we should at least point people to the List of political epiteths page (f they type it in, then it will take them there). I don't actually feel that the term should have it's own article. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I have been bold and created a redirect. Anyone wishing it deleted should list it on WP:RFD. --SPUI (talk) 01:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I have deleted it. It went through an AfD, so no one has the right to restore it unless it goes through a deletion review. SlimVirgin 01:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The AfD was on the article, not the redirect. I am restoring nothing that was "voted" on. --SPUI (talk) 02:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, that's not how AfD works. AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist. If the vote is to keep the title, then it's up to the editors on the page to decide whether it should be a redirect or have a text of its own. This is what happened to Islamofascism: it went through an AfD, the result was keep, for a time it was a redirect, and then someone turned it into an article again. But the consensus for Judeofascism was delete. SlimVirgin 02:35, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
SPUI has recreated the redirect (again). I have deleted it, and protected, until this process is complete. --Doc 21:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Slim -- I understand your arguments above, and feel strongly that both terms are deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrows. That point of view is apparently not acceptable for discussion. If there is an edit of mine that you feel violates WP:Point, let me see it, and I'll let you know if I agree that I screwed up, which is quite possible. In the meantime, I have posed some reasonable (I think) questions on your talk page, questions I think are worthy of reasonable responses. BrandonYusufToropov 17:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn speedy deletion of the redirect. Redirects are cheap, they aren't obvious, they prevent redirection. Redirects are just plain good. SPUI is right (much as it pains me to say that ;D ); WP:CSD A4 doesn't apply to this redirect, as it isn't substantially identical to the redirect. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AfD result was to delete the title, whether the page had text on it, or whether it had the word "redirect" on it. When something is deleted after an AfD, you can't simply recreate it as a redirect. You have to go through deletion review, which is why Ta bu nominated it. Please allow this process to take place. SlimVirgin 02:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the content, not the title. This is why we have such "rulecruft" on WP:CSD; otherwise people will make up their own reasons to delete articles. --SPUI (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    The AFD result was to delete the article; AFD doesn't deal with anything else. WP:CSD A4 (go read it) doesn't allow for deletion of something that isn't substantially identical to the deleted content, and that redirect is not substantially identical to the deleted content. If you want this redirect deleted, go to RFD. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    You're just wrong about that. AfD is always a vote on whether the page should exist i.e. whether the subject is notable, whether there are reputable sources available, whether it's possible for it to be encyclopedic. It is not a vote on the current contents. If the current contents are poor, but otherwise the subject is good, the article should be rewritten, not deleted. AfD does not control content or suspend normal editing practices. It controls which page titles exist. Also, can I ask you please either to have this conversation here, or on our talk pages, because you're currently posting to both, so I'm having to repeat everything. SlimVirgin 03:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I think you're getting speedy delete rules mixed up with AfD. This has nothing to with speedy delete. The article went through an AfD, where people voted overwhelmingly to delete the title. SlimVirgin 03:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Can you point out in the deletion policy where deletion of an article prevents recreation of anything under that title, or where this redirect was debated and the decision was delete? I don't much appreciate being threatened for creating a redirect to the coverage of the term "Judeofascism" (reprehensible as it is) Misplaced Pages does have, at List of political epithets. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • In case it's not clear, I "vote" to keep the redirect. --SPUI (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete the redirect, clearly no CSD applied. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    There was no speedy delete in this case, so the CSD policy does not apply. What applies is the deletion policy, which says this page must go through deletion review before it can be restored. The article went through AfD and the result was delete. Because of a technical problem, it could not be deleted at the time. People forgot about it for awhile, then another editor deleted it (by which time someone else had blanked the contents and made it a redirect, but only pending deletion script). Then Ta bu put it up for deletion review. Someone re-created it and I deleted it, and this happened several times. That is where we stand. SlimVirgin 04:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says delete? If so, and you hadn't just closed a deletion discussion, it was a speedy delete. --SPUI (talk) 04:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    Did you click a button that says Save page? If so, it was an out of process speedy undeletion. El_C 04:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I deleted it only because you created it without going through deletion review; in other words, you created it against the deletion policy. As an admin, I was responding to a policy violation. SlimVirgin 04:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's my opinion that Slim had a correct interpretation. At the AfD people could have voted 'delete and redirect'. Thus, it should go to DRV before anything happens. Redirects are cheap, yes. So don't fret over her for deleting a redirect which probably won't be used. And I'm neutral as to the final product of this DRV, but I'm endorsing Slim's actions. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted still a neologism. Unless you can provide evidence that the term is used widely by anyone outside of the fringe I see no reason to undelete.Homey 04:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. My point above was that if it's right to undelete it, that's what the deletion review is here for, and when several people think it should be kept deleted, then we obviously should run the DRV. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 04:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete as redirect with new AfD.
The AfD on this was hard to count, I think. And in terms of the actual word, it indeed seems like a cheap attempt at WP:POINT (for better or worse, "Islamofascism" has been successfully pushed into public consciousness as a term, mostly by Chris Hitchens; while "Judeofascism" remains a rare neologism. Still, this is a deletion review, not the AfD itself, so it's not really germane what opinion I have of the term itself. For that matter, however, it is conceivable that a term that was rare in April has since come into sufficiently widespread use to warrant an article (even if a redirect one).
Just looking at administration, it appears that the AfD vote was something like 26 delete, 9 redirect (counting one ambiguous vote both ways). If you take those 9 redirect votes as implicit "keep" votes on a redirect page, it narrowly misses delete consensus. I think the most reasonable way to resolve this is to create a page that is a "soft redirect", i.e. says "For explanation see List of political epithets", but then immediately AfD the new page. If that is done, I, for one, will (probably) vote a delete on the new page. But whether there is actual consensus on a page that simply redirects is unclear, IMO. A new AfD on a slightly different issue can establish consensus.
Of course, I want to be clear that I think SlimVirgin took a very reasonable approach to the ambiguous AfD. There's no fault in her action, but it would just be nicer to have an unambiguous consensus to point to. Still, just becasue something was non-notable at one point should not mean that it can never become notable; when I often see two AfD's on the same article within a month, it doesn't seem outrageous to see a new article with the same name 7 months after AfD. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete redirect and send to RfD, technically. A redirect by definition is not "substantially identical" to a regular article. A better idea would be to send the rather idiotic, unmaintainable, necessarily POV List of political epithets to AfD and solve two problems at once. Marskell 06:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse delete -- The deletion was correctly handled for a neologism. Deletion policy holds that "by long tradition and consensus, Deletion Review only addresses procedural problems that may have hampered an AFD." This proposal offers no reasoning as to the invalidity of the deletion, hence the inappropriately created redirect was properly speed-deleted. If one has a problem with "Islamofascism" as an article/title, propose it for AfD. However, there is no parity in creating new "parallel" terms to those one disagrees with just to make a Point. —LeFlyman 06:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted for now, revisit later. I personally don't object to the existence of a redirect at Judeofascism, considering it is used by fringe sources and is mentioned in the List of political epithets. If it's significant enough to be mentioned in the list, then we might as well redirect to the list. But the problem is that it will not remain a redirect. This issue has arisen now because several editors want to write a Judeofascism article as a rhetorical expression of their anger over the existence of Islamofascism. So it seems to me that this is the wrong time to undelete the redirect. Revisit the issue later when tempers have cooled and when there will be less pressure to create an article for a topic that has already been AfD'd. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment There seems to be a lot of confusion over the purpose of AfD. SlimVirgin's explanation makes perfect sense: we vote on the existence of a topic, rather than content, because if a poor article exists on a legit topic then the appropriate remedy is to improve it, not delete it. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that we are voting on the content: people justify delete votes by citing "POV" or "OR", and "redirect" votes are legion. I think the above disagreement between Slim and AMIB is a product of that confusion. Whatever the actual policy is, it would be a good idea to indicate it at the top of AfDs. Babajobu 06:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • How about redirect (using # to the right (anchor) point in the list even!) and protect the redirect. That way the article can't be recreated either. Would that be a good compromise? Kim Bruning 07:04, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep deleted the original AfD considered substituting a redirect for the article, but it was soundly rejected. Neo-logisms don't deserve redirects. I'm open to reconsidering that decision, but new evidence to the usage of this terms must be supplied and accepted. As far as I see it, none is even being offered. Rightly or wrongly the debated on afd earlier this year concluded that Islamofascism had usage and Judeofascism did not, unless that conclusion can be successfully challanged, the decisions should stand. This is about usage of terms, not political correctness.--Doc 11:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Where would hypothetical evidence of the word's new usage go if it can't go on the page with the same name though? I believe—as I state above—that the only way to decide whether such new usage exists (it has been seven months) is among AfD voters, not here on Deletion review. After all, if the usage is widepread enough to be mentioned in List of political epithets, that seems to endorse the idea that it exists enough for notability and verifiability (or it shouldn't be on that list).
I don't think the poarticular word is really notable either; but administratively, it feels wrong to decide "once deleted" an article title can never be notable. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per above arguments. -- JJay 16:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Slimvirgin and others. Briangotts 17:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD with extremely clear consensus, not only on deletion, but on the reason for deletion. It was deleted because, unlike "Islamofascism," "Judeofascism" is not a real word in any real use. Nothing about this has changed since the AfD. The valid community decision was that there should not be an article entitled "Judeofascism." Nothing about the re-creation as a redirect changes this. IMHO this is clearly POV. For an analogy: suppose someone created an article entitled Fred Rogers was a heinous criminal," and it were deleted on the basis that Fred Rogers was not a criminal at all, and then someone re-created it as a redirect to Fred Rogers and claimed that this was acceptable because the content, being a redirect, was different from that voted for deletion. In both cases, the the title itself expresses a POV that was rejected by the AfD. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. There was nothing wrong with the AfD process used in this case. Redirect is a valid option for people to use in AfD voting: in this case, the deletes won. Please remember that this is a discussion about the AfD process, not the page itself, unless some new information has emerged, which I am not seeing. Turnstep 18:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted This discussion appears to be nothing more than a back-handed way of reversing a decision made by the community.Slrubenstein | ] 20:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per SlimVirgin and Dpbsmith. Nandesuka 21:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - nothing wrong with AfD process or conclusions, no evidence of wider usage of neologism in half-year since then. Rd232 00:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete
Because
1. The article that was most recently Speedy Deleted was titled Judeofascism (term), which is not identical to the title of the article previously deleted some months ago under AfD, that is, Judeofascism. The difference, while subtle, was thought to have some importance in the context of the Islamofascism page, and should be understood to mean that although the existence of the actual alleged political phenomenon is disputed, the existence of notable political discussions employing the label is not.
2. As a result of the deletion, we are not able to see the content of any of the history Judeofascism (term), but if memory serves, one recent variant of the page at least had links to a half dozen or more sites where the term Judeofascism was supposedly used. For the sake of argument, lets suppose (as would not surprise me) that some of those links go to prominent sites, for example Al Jazeera, or are attributable to well known people (e.g, Osama Bin Laden). What's the inherent objection to an article containing such content, if (as we have tried to make happen on Islamofascism (term)) the page does not endorse the use of the term, and provides examples of criticisms of its use.
Accordingly, I strongly believe a speedy delete is inappropriate, and that an AfD debate should be held, which would at least give the proponents of the page an opportunity to bring it up to something approaching encyclopedic content. --FRS 01:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Judeofascism (term) had no contents for most of its existence, but was a redirect to Judeofascism. A couple of people, yourself included, tried to insert or revert to a very short text that was a very badly written, highly POV, personal essay with no sources that violated every content policy we have. I'm surprised you don't remember it, as you were one of its defenders. SlimVirgin 02:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the antecedent for "his" is. Proably you meant "its" as in "FRS was one of the defenders of the article." Well, as said just above, I'm not convinced an article of this title is inherently unsuitable for WP. That doesn't mean I ever defended the content of the article. And as you say yourself several paragraphs up: "AfD doesn't control content. It controls only which titles exist." --FRS 03:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
You were defending an article that had no sources, and for which no credible sources could be found, and which was therefore a violation of our policies, which you might care to read one day: WP:NOR and WP:V. You also made no attempt even to clean up the writing, but just reverted to it. Probably not your finest hour. I'm surprised you want to draw people's attention to it. SlimVirgin 03:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Excuuuusse me, but, First, I never "defended the article," I simply reverted those who either blanked out the content or redirected the article to one with completely different content. Moreover, It was ME that put the article up for AfD, which resulted in it being speedily deleted. If it wasn't for my action there'd probably still be a mindless edit war over it as was there for the brief days of its existence. Second, I've only been editing here since early October, so I haven't had too many "hours," fine or otherwise, and (third) I think I read one of "our policies" was not to bite the newbies. I think I also read somewhere that WP is not censored. FRS 04:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted because it is both a neologism and a falsification of logic and truth. It is IMPOSSIBLE that the the religion of the Jews, i.e. Judaism, could be "equated" in any way with Fascism-Nazism. It was in the name of Nazi Fascism that the Holocaust happened and nowhere and at no time in history have the Jews ever done anything like that to their enemies. This is just another clumsy attempt to "blame the victims" for something they have neither believed nor done. IZAK 03:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
With respect, IZAK, there are editors over at Islamofascism (term) making the exact same (flawed) argument about the supposed connection of their religion and fascism. The argument is flawed because the term (at least the neologism Islamfascim that has survived an AfD vote) is not used to imply that the Muslim religion is fascist. It means that some people who hold or purport to hold Islamic views behave in ways similar to fascists. A similar complaint could be made about some Jewish people, I expect, and if the proponents of the article can show that enough (or prominent enough) people use this term, a WP article may be justified. FRS 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And there are credible sources in one case, and not in the other, which means Islamofascism can exist without violating our editorial polices, and Judeofascism cannot. SlimVirgin 03:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Space Station 13

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Space Station 13

I would like to request that your decision to delete the article space_Station_13 be re-thought and considered in a different perspective. First of all a simple page that didn't even use up more than 10kb of space shouldn't have been given so much attention in the first place. The article was put up as an aid for new players; because the game is; as it was made so clear; so small, and didn't have a very useful main website, as the current website was run by a biased host at the time; although that subject is irrelivant. There was no justifiable reason for the deletion of this article other than the 'assumption' that it was put up for advertising purposes and because of snob-nosed encyclopediacs going crazy over such a small-based community. It is a clear sign of the sort of biased administration that is in effect on Misplaced Pages. There is no REAL space station named 'Thirteen' and therefore the space is not required by anything more important. When a space station named 'Thirteen' is launched, the community will gladly give up the space for it.

Furthermore, I'd like at least a valid reason for the article being deleted, or its official re-addition. I'm not going make a threat, but the subject will be re-added constantly by the fan base of over 500 unique members; and is something that the development/administration departments of SS13 cannot control.

Please also note that the recent statement on the discussion for deletiong for SS13 is incorrect. The game is not run by a one-man development team, it is in fact run by a 5-person development team, a 4-person website team, and a 12 person moderation team; and is actually the subject of a 3D game which is in development for the next 2 years.

We're not worried about the space it takes. We're worried about its encyclopedic value. If you think the person who runs the current website is biased, go run your own, but Misplaced Pages is not a webhost. - Mgm| 23:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • 500 members? Whoa! Hold on there LivingWithStyle, Somethingawful and Gaiaonline! You got some pretty damned popular competition! SS13 is not notable enough to be on Misplaced Pages. This is coming from a person who helped the article quite a bit. -Mrdie
  • Endorse deletion. I see no problems with the afd, and threats are unlikely to convince anyone. —Cryptic (talk) 02:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion - I beg to differ with Cryptic. Unconvincing non-threats are definitely going to convince Wikipedians... convince them that the article in question is utter crap that must stay deleted at all costs. FCYTravis 03:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion. The AfD was valid, and if another valid deletion reason is needed, I'd like to point out that Misplaced Pages is not a web hosting service. I'm sure a "non-biased" web hosting service can be found. Web hosting is a very competitive business. One dollar from each of those 500 members should buy you a site for many, many years. If you want the AfD to be overturned, you must provide new information, which you do not seem to have done, with the exception of the size of the development team, which is unlikely to change anyones vote on the original AfD. Turnstep 18:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep deleted. same reasons as yoism only more so.Geni 17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Don't worry, we can protect articles against recreation if it keeps being readded. Titoxd 18:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 25

Blogging Tories

Based on the discussion, I don't see how this deletion can be adequately justified.

1) The editor who nominated the article for deletion and the main advocate for keeping it both agreed that the VfD results should be the same for this article and Progressive Bloggers, the Blogging Tories' "rival" group with roughtly equal membership. Progressive Bloggers survived its (second) VfD the day before this article was deleted.

2) The admin who closed the VfD and deleted the article had personally voted for deletion. While I can't find anything in Misplaced Pages's policies to specifically ban this practice, it does seem rather unbecoming, especially in light of the third point...

3) Most importantly, by my count the vote was 20 delete, 19 keep, and 2 merge. A plurality of one vote can't be considered "consensus" by any stretch of the imagination. (The consensus article suggest a two-thirds majority for VfDs.) There was also no "emerging consensus" by means of pro-keep editors switching to the pro-delete side. This, combined with the "when it doubt, don't delete" rule, definitely means that the article shouldn't have been deleted.

I move for an overturn and undelete. The Invisible Hand 10:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn per above point 2 seems quite convincing AND there was no consensus for deletion (even though I voted delete).  Grue  11:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse and keep deleted. Point 1 is unfortunate but irrelevant; Misplaced Pages is often inconsistent. To point 2, this is one of those things to be avoided because they look improper, not because they are improper - we should not assume that CAF was biased. And point 3 is plainly and entirely wrong, because of the invasion of sockpuppets. After discounting invalid votes, I do get a two-thirds majority for deletion, which means that deletion is a valid call. I propose a redirect to the Canadian Blogscape. Radiant_>|< 14:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Strike vote, convinced by the below. Radiant_>|< 19:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • There were a lot of "delete" sockpuppets too, including some "war on blogs" GNAA trolls.  Grue  14:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, I also discounted those. However, most GNAA members appear to be legit users as well, and the so-called "war on blogs" is not indiscriminate trolling, but an effort to clean out unremarkable blogs (per WP:NOT a web guide). This was discussed at WP:ANI and there was found no reason to do anything about it. If you believe there are problems, please ask Kelly for a sockcheck. Radiant_>|< 14:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I count 9 valid keep votes and 12 delete votes (including GNAA, myself and Cleared as filed). This is nowhere near consensus to delete.  Grue  15:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. While I would have preferred that the closing admin "show their work", after having looked at the arguments presented (see talk page as noted above) there was a clear consensus to delete, and no compelling counter-argument presented. - brenneman 12:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I still don't see any consensus. I believe that consistency is a very good reason for keeping this article and if I had known that Progressive Bloggers would be kept, I'd voted keep instead of delete.  Grue  12:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    I've read through all of the comments (taking sock/meat puppetry from both sides into account), and I don't see anything remotely resembling a consensus. —Lifeisunfair 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. No consensus to delete. Rhobite 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete per Lifeisunfair and others. Turnstep 18:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn. I really don't see clear consensus, whether you discount potential meatpuppets or not. In a dubious and complex vote like that one, a voter in the debate should never have done the closing himself. -- SCZenz 19:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment The fact that there may "no consensus" based upon pure numbers is mitigated by the fact that this is not a vote. In the absence of back-ups to the "it's notable" arguments, the closing admin has the resposibility to do more than simply count heads. We reject scripts like the "afd helper" because we want nuanced interpretations of the results. That is what we got here. - brenneman 20:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
1. Actually, an AfD debate is a vote (but not a simple majority vote).
2. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not seeing this supposed consensus. In my assessment, neither side's argument was persuasive enough to prevail. If I had to pick one, however, I'd say that the combined "keep" votes were move eloquent than the combined "delete" votes; most of the "delete" voters merely indicated that the group is non-notable, while many of the "keep" voters provided specific reasons why they believe that the group is notable. —Lifeisunfair 21:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
No, you're misusing the word "vote" to mean "majority vote." The commonness of this misconception was a major (and legitimate) factor in the decision to rename VfD, as was the desire to specify the type of page being discussed.
FYI, American Heritage defines a "vote" as "a formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue." In a slightly different context, a vote is "the act or process of voting," which refers back to the aforementioned definition. (This is the connotation that applies.) —Lifeisunfair 23:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn deletion and undelete. Grue and The Invisible Hand don't agree on the numbers, but they do agree that the amount of valid keep and delete votes are close together. I can't see how this shows an emerging concensus. And based on point two, I don't see how it would be fair to delete this either. - Mgm| 23:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • My original preference in both debates was to keep, but what I'm more concerned about is that it inherently constitutes a bias-by-inclusion to treat this and Progressive Bloggers differently from each other. Although my personal preference would be to undelete this, I'd be comfortable at this point with either undeleting Blogging Tories or deleting ProgBlog -- but whichever happens, they both have to be treated equivalently; there's simply no valid argument to be made that they fall on opposite sides of the keep-delete line from each other. And I do have to agree that a debate as heavily puppet-infested as this one turned out to be should really not have been closed by an admin who had directly participated in the discussion. Bearcat 01:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. Well, I do seem to have gotten myself into controversy early. Upon reviewing the discussion, I obviously made a mental error; by my count there were 8 legitimate keep votes and 12 legitimate delete votes (in addition to 3 "borderline-legitimate" delete votes which I did not factor in). Somehow, in my notes, this translated to a more than two-thirds preference towards deletion, a number which I cannot fathom how I came up with now. In addition, it didn't occur to me at the time that there would be a problem closing an AFD that I had voted on, and I had no motivation in closing it other than it had been left unclosed for several days past its 5-day period. I now recognize that it is unseemly to decide consensus on a close issue that I had expressed an opinion on, a mistake I won't repeat. I appreciate the good faith that the above comments have assumed about my action, and have no problem with the consensus of the community expressed here. —Cleared as filed. 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Now that the closing admin has acknowledged that the decision was reached in error, I see no reason to prolong this discussion; the article should be undeleted immediately. —Lifeisunfair 05:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'd just like to extend my appeciation to everyone who participated in this debate, especially the closing admin and those who voted for deletion, for taking an objective view of my motion even when it went against your personal views about the article. I'm new to Misplaced Pages editing, and this has done a lot for the stature of the community in my eyes. Thanks, guys. — The Invisible Hand 09:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment on this process. I can only say that I am deeply dissapointed in the outcome of this discussion. Regardless of American Heritage feeling on what constitutes a "vote", by allowing this to be reduced to simple head-counting, we're doing closing admins (and wikipedia in general) a grave disservice. Even on that count, however, this was a clear consesus.
    • If the five editors who claimed B.T. was notable had provided any evidence to back up their claim, then the fourteen who claimed it was not notable would have looked pretty silly.
    • The three editors who said "must keep due to Progressive" were adapting the "how can you delete Foo when you've got Some equally trivial article", and I simply cannot believe that that has somehow become an acceptable argument.
brenneman 12:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
1. My point is that the word "vote" does not necessarily refer to a system in which ballots are simply tallied. That's a specific type of voting (which AfD discussions are not). The word "vote" can refer to "a formal expression of preference for . . . a proposed resolution of an issue" or to the "process" through which such expressions are supplied. This is an accurate description of AfD.
2. I recently participated in a TfD discussion in which a vast majority of voters disagreed with me. Instead of expressing my disappointment that all of them were wrong, I assisted in the consensus-backed modification of a template that I voted to delete. I respectfully suggest that you adopt a similar attitude, given your desire to defer to "a clear consensus" (such as the one above). —Lifeisunfair 16:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, of course you are. Likewise, I'm allowed to say that beating a dead horse is unproductive. —Lifeisunfair 00:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 24

Nixon: Ruin and Recovery 1973-1990

Doesn't appear to meet any speedy criteria. Visible content was: "Nixon;Ruin and recovery is a book by stephen ambrose about richard nixions fall from grace in 1973 and rise back to honor in 1993 and the events in hi..." Kappa 20:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Undelete and list on AfD. Looks like spam, but the speedy rules don't include that. -- SCZenz 21:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Cut the bureaucracy, keep deleted without prejudice. What Kappa just quoted was the entire content (plus the letters "s life between."). Nothing there is worth discussing, but it seems a worthy topic so I hope someone will write about it. Radiant_>|< 14:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As above agree with Radiant. A real article could problably be written about this topic, but it would be better starting from scratch than building on an abysmally-written subsubstub ("richard nixions"?!) Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, deleted out of process. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Doesn't look at all like spam to me. Give it fifteen seconds of wikification, spellchecking, and proper punctuation, and it's no better nor worse than many of our other book stubs. If Lucky thinks it needs deleting so badly, let him put it on afd like anyone else. —Cryptic (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Who cares? It would be a lot quicker to re-write a decent stub than to have this debate. --Doc 12:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted with no prejudice to the creation of something substantial in its place. Concur with Doc. - Mgm| 23:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD. Most speedy deletions are good, sometimes someone gets it wrong. No harm in undeleting and listing on AfD. Of course any administrator could do this, we don't need a discussion on it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Rough edges are normal in a wiki. Many admins need a reminder that the proper solution to poor quality stubs where an article is appropriate is to EDIT them. Unfocused 22:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

November 23

Gallery of Socialist Realism

The AfD discussion, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of Socialist Realism, has been incorrectly closed on two counts:

  1. Only two of the 16 votes were simple delete votes, most of the delete votes were Transwiki and delete, but the closing admin did not make any effort to keep the content available for transwikying;
  2. In the course of the AfD discussion, it became clear that the WP:NOT policy was excluding pictorial content of encyclopediac value. A lengthy discussion there concluded with a change of the policy with respect to collections of images; after the change in the policy, which has met with uniform approval, all the votes were keep votes. Hence, the grounds cited for almost all delete votes ceased to exist at the time the AfD was closed, which the closing admin appears to have been oblivious to.

The page should certainly be undeleted. I think it is clear that the page would win a new AfD, hence, in the interests of avoiding unnecessary bureaucracy, I recommend we do not relist on AfD. --- Charles Stewart 19:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment: see also --- Charles Stewart 19:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Note: The 'lengthy' discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposed rewording totalled 3 votes. Which is insufficient to change a long-standing policy, imo. The discussion preceding the vote (for such it was) included 8 messages in total, between 3 users. -Splash 19:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Another note:I presume some or all of the images hinge on fair use claims. It's been considered for some time that mere collections of images, outside of the article to which they would refer, do not constitute fair use. -Splash 19:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Let be noted that I didn't delete the images and we're not arguing about the image merits, but what I deleted was the gathering and listing. As I suggested, adding a category Category:Socialist Realism would be a better way to gather this entries. Anyway, the content was already merged today into Socialist realism. -- ( drini's vandalproof page ☎ ) 21:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • However, until I merged the content, you orphaned a large number of images, which made them eligible for deletion. If I had not taken the precaution of savivng a copy of the page, it could not have been reconstructed in order to merge. If there was a consensus it was to transwiki and delete, which you did not do. Dsmdgold 21:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. The status of the images is safe, and a transwiki for those that are acceptable in commons would be in ok; that said, although we cannot ensure that they will be accepted there. It does seem more appropriate that this page were a category page in commons, though. Titoxd 21:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Observe Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gallery of illuminated manuscript images whose outcome was keep. --- Charles Stewart 21:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. The attempt to change a long-standing policy during the debate by collecting 3 or 4 'votes' and having 3 users discussing it and then to try here to retroactively apply that policy 'change' to users opinions effected before the change is far too much legalese. I do not consider the policy changed, and will probably reverse it pending a proper discussion: WP:ISNOT a repository of images. A collection of image is not an article. Those who cited WP:NOT in their comments were correct, those who called the policy 'misguided' and opted to keep based on a reverse interpretation of non-existent polic-change were wrong. It is reasonable to dismiss such comments: particularly those like CalJW's. Anyone can copy the PD images to Commons, it does not need a transwiki of the would-be article. In fact, Commons is interested in media not articles as I approx understand it, so the transwiki part of the comments are not important from this perspective: the images are still here. The closing admin got this right, those who forced a policy semi-change during the debate to retroactively apply it afterwards were wrong. -Splash 21:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The closing admin made no effort to indicate that he recognised the issue. I would not have made the criticisms I had of an admin who cited the issue and said the later remarks in the discussion had no bearing on the earlier delete votes. As it was, I regard the closing of the AfD as poorly executed. You have also not indicated what you think of the several AfD's that I pointed to in my previous comment that provided a precedent for the change I made to WP:NOT. --- Charles Stewart 22:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I do not dispute that the images are all still "here". They are for the moment. (However, if I had not merged the gallery, most of them would have been orphans and eventually deleted.). There is value to organization and annoatation of images. By merely deleting the article, without re-creating it elsewhere, the closing admin decreased the amount of knowleddge available to Misplaced Pages. I also find it a bit odd to suggest that a closing admin can ignore comments of editors merely because he or she disagrees with the reasoning of the comment. I also find it distressing that to think that a vote to transwiki has no meaning other than delete. It should be noted that one of those voting transwiki specified that "In any case, make sure we don't just lose this, it's excellent." Dsmdgold 23:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If the closing admin had said the comments were irrelevant to the vote, I would still have taken the matter to DRV and said the AfD , but my criticisms would have been less sharp. I regard admins who ignore unanswered arguments to keep made in AfDs when closing to delete as a menace to WP. The ones who at least observe the existence of these arguments are much less malign, even when they make the same assessment. --- Charles Stewart 00:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've put up another link to the WP:NOT discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Proposed change to WP:NOT, following Brennemann's reversal of the change to WP:NOT I applied. --- Charles Stewart 00:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Upon further inspection, the article isn't encyclopedic, here is the entire content:
This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
A whole bunch of images
See also:

This is exactly what Commons is here for. Reading the comments on the WP:NOT talk page does not leave me very convinced. That said, I don't object to a transwiki to Commons. Titoxd 01:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually the structure of the page was bit more complex than that. It was

This is a gallery of paintings and images of architecture from the Socialist Realism school.
Click on each image for more details. An asterisk indicates that more information is available.
Lenin
10 images with captions
Stalin
7 images with captions
Ordinary life
10 images with captions
Scenes of Revolution and War
4 images with captions
Technology
3 images with captions
Propaganda
2 images with captions
Architecture
5 images with captions
Sculpture
8 images with captions
See also:

The gallery had more stucture than you are giving it credit for. Please leave your reasons for being unconvinced at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not#Proposal to modify WP:NOT an image gallery, I for one would appreciate a fuller discusion. Also can you point me to the portion of Commons that says part of their mission is to host image galleries for the Wikipedias? I can't find it. Dsmdgold 02:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

MYOB

The page was speedy deleted after a request was put in which stated This page was in error. MYOB is an accounts package, not internet slang as the redirect suggested.. While MYOB is an accounting package (), it is also an abbreviation that is used as an internet slang term. See for example FOLDOC, the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary or any other reference found by OneLook. S.K. 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a disambiguation page at MYOB. I don't think this deletion review is necessary because there was no real content deleted. Rhobite 01:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

November 22

Global Resource Bank

  • I vote for undeletion. The Global Resource Bank is the life-work of scientist John Pozzi. It is a non-profit scientific initiative of developing an ecological world economy. Monika Hoy, Germany (monipeperoni@netscape.net)
  • I would like an undeletion of the article on the Global Resource Bank

VOTE: UNDELETE Global Resource Bank. /Lennart

November 21

Argentina v England (2005)

The AfD debate here shows 8 keeps and 11 deletes, and as such, no consensus for deletion. Since similar articles on cricket matches are routinely kept, I think this one should be undeleted as well.  Grue  13:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Overturn, undelete and redirect to Argentina and England football rivalry since the article is already merged. One thing to note here is that this should not have been merged before the AFD had completely run its course. Nonetheless, from reading the AFD debate I cannot see a consensus to delete the article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/ I make this 13 Delete / 5 Keep / 3 Merge. One of the merge votes explicitly indicated "delete" as a second choice, and so IMO can not be read as a keep vote. The other two comments advocating merge seems not to support the separate existance of this article, one said "Professional sports events happen every day...". Therefore I don't think they can be read as simple keep votes either. I think this is within the closer's judgement to close as a delete. However if soemoen wanted to create a new redirect at this title, that would NOT be "substantially similer" and so not subject to a speedy. The merge should not, IMO, have been done while the debate was in progress, however. DES 16:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I oppose the notion that merges cannot be done while an article has been proposed for deletion. Misplaced Pages's normal editing processes should not be over-ridden in that way. Often, the best way to show how things should be done is to do it. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 03:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree with Matthew. Merging is a a sequence of normal edits, and if these are not good edits, anyone can revert them. There is no need for a rule against merging whilst an AfD is in process. --- Charles Stewart 15:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Actually, things are a little more subtle than that, as pointed out below. If content is merged, then the GFDL requires we keep track of the history. This is most usually done by retaining a redirect where once there was an article. This means that, even in the face of an otherwise overwhelming delete (hypothetically, not in this case), those editors would have been overridden by another. Whether that is reasonable is an open question. There are other ways of (probably) meeting the GFDL in cases like this, such as copying the history to the target's talk page prior to deletion of the source. But I personally consider it good form to recommend a merge during the AfD but wait to see if the consensus is that Misplaced Pages would not retain the content at all. -Splash 17:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Indeed Splash is right, and I retract my comment. It is normally inappropriate to merge content from articles during an AfD. --- Charles Stewart 18:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure/keep deleted - Per DES - Tεxτurε 19:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete, improperly closed. No consensus for deletion. Feel free to merge and redirect. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Reasonable judgment call, per DES. --Calton | Talk 03:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close/Keep deleted Per DES. Merges should not be counted as keeps. Carbonite | Talk 15:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That's blatantly not true, and contradicts the Deletion policy. Also, as this article was merged, GFDL requires that it's history is undeleted.  Grue  16:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • In practice, it just doesn't make sense to count "merges" as "keeps". When I vote to "merge", I don't want an article to exist at that location. If I think the information could be useful in some article, a "merge" vote makes sense. If I wanted my vote counted as a "keep", I would have voted that way. Since your GFDL concerns are legitimate (from what I know about the license) I'd support having it as a redirect. Carbonite | Talk 17:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and make into redirect, per Grue's last point. Sam Vimes 16:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn - as per Grue, deletion appears to consitute violation of GFDL, since it appears the content was merged. Also, since merges count as keeps, there was no consensus to delete. Guettarda 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn -as per Grue. --- Charles Stewart 16:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment What, we can't merge the histories? Even if that is not possible, to avoid violating GFDL all that is required is to copy-paste the history into the talk of the target article. Even more if the information that was merged is widely and commonly available, then the pseron who merged it simply has to go and confirm the facts themselves and do a re-write, and again GFDL is preserved. - brenneman 23:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn per above. NSLE (讨论+extra) 00:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close. Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy says merges are neither deletes nor keeps. However, since it is merged (a situation I don't think anyone minds terribly), something has to be done to satisfy GFDL. As a practical matter, I wouldn't oppose undeleting and redirecting. -- SCZenz 00:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, the Deletion policy says nothing special about how to interpret "merge" comments when closing the discussion. The Guide to deletion, on the other hand, explicitly says that "Merge is a recommendation to keep the article's content but to move it ..." As a practical matter and largely guided by the requirement to maintain GFDL, "merge" opinions are routinely interpreted as a recommendation to "keep" the article history (that is to say, "not delete") even though they are not a recommendation to "keep the article as is". "Merge" is often a very nuanced opinion and can not be easily forced into a binary "keep" vs. "delete" framework. This is a good example of why mere vote-counting is bad. Rossami (talk) 05:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment When I created the Argentina and England football rivalry article, I wrote the "2005 friendly" section from the ground-up, without any material from the existing article, and it has since been worked on and added to independently by other editors. I don't believe there *is* actually any material from that article in it, so I'm not sure how that counts as having been merged. Angmering 12:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and undelete. Not sure where the nom got that vote count, but I tally it as 5 keep, 11 delete, 1 delete/merge, 2 merge, and one merge/delete. Even without counting the merges as keeps, that's 12d to 5k, which is not a clear enough consensus. If we count the plain merges, it becomes 12d to 7k. I think the burden is on the merge voters to specify what their fallback position is (as only Reyk seems to have done here) so that their votes are clearly not a keep. Turnstep 18:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Utterly fatuous attempt to delete an article about an international football match. Failed to raise convincing consensus but got deleted anyhow. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn because merge and delete is an illegal operation. (In more ways than one) Kim Bruning 08:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Bronx underground

I would like an undeletion of the article on the Bronx Underground. The reasons for deletion were listed as "blatant self-promotional ad spam/link spam." This is simply untrue. The article was not self-promotional, merely a factual account of a local-interest in the Bronx, detailing one of the Bronx's most popular local music venues, and one of the most successful independent promoters in New York City. There were no opinions or values in the article, just facts. I don't think the reasoning behind this article's deletion is fair. - Mike corsillo 10:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted: The deleted page was Bronx underground. Looking at the deleted version I noted two links to the group's homepage, one link to their web forum, one link to a page containing samples from a soon to be released compilation CD, and zero independent sources to help show that this article might not have been written by a public relations department. While I am not sure that this article actually qualified as a proper speedy delete, I saw nothing in the article to suggest it would stand any chance of surviving an AfD. --Allen3  14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • While we do have links to our homepage and samples from our CD, what more would you ask from a small, independent promotions company. We don't even operate for profit, and do not have a public relations department. As independent sources show up, the article could be edited, but there are currently no publications other than the group's site that offer information on it. That is not to say the group is not well-known, just that it has not been written about. Anyway, if it didn't meet the criteria for speedy deletion, you shouldn't have deleted it.- Mike corsillo 21:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      • That is the very definition of an article that should be soundly deleted by AfD. Misplaced Pages is not a substitute for your public relations department, and if you yourselves are the only source, then, per WP:V, you need to come back again when you are not. Anyone opting to keep this article in a hypothetical future AfD would need to have extraordinarily good reasons for violating two core policies. -Splash 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Special:Undelete/Bronx Underground shows no deleted edit history. What article is this DRV about? --- Charles Stewart 20:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete/Overturn. The article may be an ad but that is not one of the criteria for speedy deletion. Rhobite 20:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Inappropriate speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. The article will just be immediately listed on AfD and deleted anyway, especially since the author has made it perfectly clear that they are trying to use Misplaced Pages as their own private PR firm. User:Zoe| 02:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That was not my intention by any means. I was in no way trying to use Misplaced Pages as a PR firm. We don't need a PR firm. I was just trying to contribute an unbiased article about what the Bronx Underground is. We have absolutely no desire to use this site as a PR firm. Maybe when I said we dont have PR department, I should have said we don't need one. All of our advertising is done by word of mouth. The entry does not give any information about show times or prices or list any of the merch we offer. The only reason it links to the website is because that makes sense. If the article does not survive the AfD, that is fine. But I don't appreciate being shafted based on speculation of its future.
    • I'm not into bureaucracy, but there's something to be said for following existing processes. Are you saying that because the AfD outcome appears to be obvious, we shouldn't even go through the motions? It has happened before that a subject which appeared to be headed for deletion turned out to be notable and turned into a good article. I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just saying we shouldn't deviate from the AfD process on a whim. Rhobite 03:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and list on AfD: invalid speedy, deleted within 3 minutes of creation, article appears non-speediable. Non-speediable articles deserve their hearing on AfD, and the topic looks capable of attracting worthwhile content. Endorsing out of process speedies is not what Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy is about. --- Charles Stewart 15:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and Afd I suppose. Altho I fear the Afd may turn into a fiasco which nicely illustrates everything that's wrong with Afd. Friday (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and AfD, unless someone can point to a proper speedy criterion. If people think there are holes in the speedy process, they should be closed, not created as we go along on this page. -- SCZenz 00:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and afd. It is exactly this kind of invalid speedy that keeps the community from trusting administrators with an "obvious spam" or similar speedy criterion. —Cryptic (talk) 18:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Beer boxing

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Beer boxing

I would like an undeletion of the most recent article on beer boxing. According to the Misplaced Pages:Undeletion_policy#To_request_that_a_page_.28or_image.29_be_restored " The speedy deletion criterion for "reposted content that was deleted according to deletion policy " only applies if the content is "substantially identical" (under any article title) — not if you added a lot of new information." Not only was the latest version of the article completely different from previous versions, but the original reasons for deletion are voided by the very fact that there is even a debate over its deletion. If the game of Beer Boxing is a notable enough drinking game to cause a debate, why is it not notable enough to warrant its own article? Furthermore, it is obvious to all who care to review the vote for deletion that half of the votes are for personal objection to the drinking game itself, rather than the content of the article or noteworthiness of the game. Lastly, should the notableness of the game remain under question, I would like to point out the arbitrariness of that judgement. Beer boxing is definitely as or more notable than many other drinking games listed. Mike corsillo 08:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse deletion, unless nominator can provide sources. - Mgm| 08:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • what sources would you have me provide? all versions of the article have been deleted, but having never read previous versions of the article, the most recent version could not have possibly been identical in content or substance. furthermore, i have no way of proving the notableness of this game, nor any other. similarly, nobody can disprove it, thus qualifying the standards for what is notable as completely arbitrary. My argument speaks for itself. Mike corsillo 10:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      Please see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources for information on the types of sources that are typically looked for to support an article. I did a quick Google search to see if there was anything obvious to help support the article and found nothing but this. Unfortunately the only hit was on a site that accepts anonymous submissions, and is thus disqualified from being used as a source for a Misplaced Pages article. --Allen3  14:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      If there are no other sites where people can look this up, isn't that even more reason for this site to allow information to be provided? I dont understand why an encyclopedia would only offer information that is already offered by other websites. Way to "be bold," everybody. -Mike corsillo 21:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
      That is a crucial point. An encyclopedia is a tertiary source. It doens't create information (a primary source), and it doesn't report on the creation (a secondary source). It reports that others have found the information to be accurate and reliable (and encyclopedic). An encyclopedia that reported unsubstantiated material wouldn't be very encyclopedic, would it? It is very clear that you didn't read WP:V. As soon as you do, you will see exactly what is being said here. -Splash 22:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion as per MacGyverMagic. --Allen3  14:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Trollaxor

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Trollaxor

I would like a review of the AFD procedure for this article -- the verdict was no consensus and much of the voting appears suspicious. Not only has the article been deleted before, but it remains non-notable and unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and only remains because of the efforts of a group gaming the AFD system. My solution was to redirect it rather than delete it and try to force someone to take notice... which it least would spare the efforts of future AFDs after it was recreated, and avoid yet more running around in circles cleaning up junk. - Motor (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. You're not wrong to try redirecting—anyone can do that—but it's clear from the article history that it's not gonna fly with the people who disagree with you. At 8-5 to delete (discounting user with 8 edits), you could AfD it again, but I'd personally recommend working out some sort of merge/redirect compromise on the talk page. -- SCZenz 01:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • And Relist. If organized trolls are really the problem, then out-vote them. But I can't see a justification for discounting them—perhaps someone can explain? -- SCZenz 21:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete almost a speedy. Those voting keep seem to be a part of some organised group of trolls (except Trollderella, who is just an extreme inclusionist).  Grue  13:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
It's an indication of the sorry state that we're in that advocating following policy is 'extremism'. Trollderella 23:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
And what policy would that be? --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, but not because the Afd was done wrong. The closure as a "no consensus" was reasonable, although not what I would have done. Of course, the article could also be speedied right now as a perfectly valid A7. Friday (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    So you don't think that the afd was wrong? It's clearly not a valid CSD, so you're really just saying you disagree with the result. Trollderella 22:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    I suppose that CSD A7 doesn't explicitly say that when it talks about articles making a claim of notability, it pertains to a notion of notability that stems from the community as a whole, rather than the ideas of the particular deleting admin. That seems rather obviously true, however. If the community has just now come to no consensus about whether a subject is notable, it would seem obvious that A7 does not apply. Friday's application of the unilateral admin action model here is probably unwise. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    What application of the "unilateral admin action model"? I didn't delete it, did I? I merely stated an opinion that an A7 could be applied here. But, I'll be clear: the reason I say "overturn and delete" is that Afd produced the wrong answer in this case. I'm not against doing a deletion "in process" either, altho at this point I'm not sure how that's possible. If we start another Afd tomorrow and it's closed as a delete, we'll still have people complaining that the second Afd was invalid because of the previous "no consensus" closure. But, if we want to look at the Afd process, I could say that it was tainted by troll involvement. Of course, this is a judgement call and it's a bit rude to those we're calling trolls, right? Friday (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    By "application of the unilateral admin action model" I meant your statement that the article would be a valid A7 -- to say this implies your belief that an admin can determine that an article doesn't make a claim of notability, even when the sense of the community has been determined (to whatever degree), and the community of users does not agree that there is no such claim. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    What I meant was, someone looking at it could reasonably say "Gosh, writing on websites isn't an assertion of notability". Thus, it's an A7. I'm not going to delete it as an A7 because I know it's being discussed, and deleting it right now would be rude to other editors. Also, I fully realize that other reasonable editors could look at this article and decide it's not an A7 speedy. Friday (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I am disturbed that most of the votes here are based on opinion, rather than process, which is contrary to what Deletion Review is for. I have a few questions that I'd like to see addressed:
    1. Is this really a legitimate speedy delete? It seems that at least a few people think the article contains assertions of notability, at which point WP:CSD A7 says it should go to AfD.
    2. Can editors be discounted merely because of their afilliation with whatever organized trolling group? I see no reason for this.
  • I'm the first person to say this article should be deleted, but I say do it within process. Anyone care to explain why we shouldn't, as is apparently going to happen? -- SCZenz 23:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. The point here is not whether this article should stay or go, that's what AFD is for. It is the attempt to hijack process by a small group who can't accept a community decision. Trollderella 23:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There's irony for you. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm dissapointed by any claims that editor's recommendations should be discounted simply because of who they are. I don't care if someone is a GNAA sleeper admin who is secretly impregnating our life parters to breed an army of child-eating Liberal voters, if they present a coherent assertion we should listen to it. In this instance that was not done, with some simply saying "keep". Thus Overturn and delete because AfD is not a vote, and compelling arguments were not presented. - brenneman 00:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Your argument is sound, up until you make the case that because you don't like the reasons given then the community can be ignored. If you think it should be deleted, list it again and get a concensus. Trollderella 00:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I wasn't aware of the alleged GNAA "trolling" until I was informed about it after I closed the debate, so if the decision is overturned, there won't be any opposition from me. No vote. Robert 00:26, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
We seem to be using the word 'troll' in the sense of 'voting in a way I don't like'. That's disturbing. If you don't like the outcome of AFD, relist, don't try a backdoor to try to work around a community decision. Trollderella 00:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I have no opinion either way. I was merely stating that, before closure, I wasn't aware of what is now being argued by those in favor of overturning. Hence, I didn't vote. Robert 00:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse closure. Motor is right: some of the "Keep" votes on the AfD are highly-suspect, being low-usage accounts set up primarily for voting on AfDs, as careful examination of their contribution history shows. However, this depth of scrutiny cannot be expected from an admin closing an AfD, and even with this additional information it is not obvious whether these dubious "Keep" votes can be legitimately discarded. Robert was right to close this as a no-consensus. If you do decide to re-nominate the article, I hope we'll get enough participation as to make the few sock- or meat-puppets' votes irrelevant. Owen× ☎ 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That is not correct, I'm afraid. The notion that cursorily closing complex AfDs is ok is profoundly wrong. If an admin hasn't the time required to do the job properly, they should steer very well clear of the job. -Splash 21:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus. AfD was conducted correctly. Please respect community decisions and stop accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet. Give proofs or shut up. -- Femmina 16:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • "few sockpuppets" =/= "accusing everyone who voted keep to be a sock/meat puppet", no matter how you bend the English language. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Please note that my objections stem from the fact that simply saying "keep" should be discounted by any closing admin, regardless of whom it originates from. It's not a vote. - brenneman 23:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looks like for the GNAA and their War on Blogs, some websites are more equal than others. --Calton | Talk 23:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Looking at the VfD, I see what looks like bloc voting by GNAA members, and no reasoning by the "keep" voters. --Carnildo 00:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment - I don't think this should be used as an opportunity to vent frustration at editors you don't like. If you disagree with the outcome, re-list it. Trollderella 01:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
    • If the purported trolls lift their game and put "Keep - per nominator, this author is notable per " than we wouldn't be having this discussion. The quality of the anti-blog nominations they were making went up when prompted, there is no reason that almost anyone can't be molded into a good contributor. brenneman 01:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
      • If deletion policy mentioned 'notability' even once your point might be relevant. If you don't like the result of a community process, re-run it. Trollderella 16:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Forget notability, I don't see how Trollaxor is verifiable, and that IS a policy. There's discussion on the talk page about it. My position is that his own postings do not make him verifiable. Friday (talk) 17:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I would overturn and delete, since it is a valid A7, but since there have been complaints about it, the only course of action that I consider appropriate is a relist with a minimum participation treshhold, like done for GNAA. Titoxd 17:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete, discounting obvious role accounts is good practice. Contrary to what OwenX says, such scrutiny is appropriate, and if an AFD closer neglects it, then deletion review is appropriate. Radiant_>|< 18:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete in accordance with the reasoning advanced by Radiant! and Aaron Brenneman, particularly Aaron Brenneman's. Plus, as I see it, even if there was no consensus to delete, there was a consensus (Motor, Starblind, and Friday in explicit agreement with several others in implied agreement, and only Skrewler in explicit disagreement) that it constituted vanity, which overrides the consensus. Plus, I see a more clearly articulated consensus that the subject matter is unnoteworthy, and interpretations of de jure policy notwithstanding (I, for instance, believe WP:NOT and the deletion policy both explicitly establish non-notability as grounds for deletion), it's de facto part of the deletion policy. In all, I believe a consensus was reached, and that consensus was for deletion. The Literate Engineer 01:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse as the AfD was valid, and no new information has been presented. Although some of the accounts were young, none were created after the AfD as far as I can tell. This is a very close call however, and while we should respect the closing admin's decision, I would strongly recommend an immediate relisting. Turnstep 19:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

November 20

Joseph Vargo and Nox Arcana

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph Vargo

Please review facts, dates, publishing credits, and Google and/or Amazon search on the discussion page, and relist these articles. I had provided dates and specific publications where these artists were mentioned, press runs of said publications, television shows, qty of books and/or CDs sold, etc. (all in keeping with the guidelines for notability), then later edited content to focus more on facts as some editors seemed to think a biography is a vanity thing. None of the editors seems to have even looked at that info before deleting the entire page (one mistook a band's website for a store when it is not, though a musical group is certainly allowed to sell thier own music). Ideally, I'd like my original content relisted from 10:26, 4 November 2005. Once relisted, I intend to add the dates and specific references from discussion under a separate heading on that main page. And... I am totally new to this maze. But am learning. I've made a few scant contributions to other pages while a non-registered user (this was before I learned that my username was not coming up, or how to sign off :)Blooferlady 00:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep deleted, valid AfD, and the originator (the editor above) should not be rewarded for having vandalized the AfD page. User:Zoe| 03:00, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Both are copyvios from and . (In fact, the first chunk of Nox Arcanal isn't on either of those links, but the rest is and the first chunk is blatantly taken from somewhere on the site). To admins: note that Joseph Vargo has been constructed in a slightly different order and changes a few words, but is overwhelmingly an infringement: it even repeats the spelling mistake in "influencial". Now, there is a confusing release of sorts in those links: "permission to reprint biographies is hereby granted to press and public forums...Copyright © 1991-2005 Monolith Graphics. All rights reserved." That's not good enough for Misplaced Pages, since its content can be reused by anyone for any purpose, and that is effectively a "with conditions" release that is directly incompatible with the GFDL. Now, Talk:Joseph Vargo claims to have permission, but I don't see any point following that up if AfD has already deleted the articles. -Splash 17:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Validly deleted in process. I wasn't going to comment here since I listed it for deletion, but Blooferlady, who claims to be Vargo, has already re-created Joseph Vargo both on his user page and at least once in the main namespace and is demanding that I undelete. —Cryptic (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Blooferlady here to request the deletion be revoked and to state some inaccuracies in regards to Cryptic's comments. Firstly, I am not Vargo himself. He doesn't even own a computer (read the bio, why don'tcha!). I am Christine Filipak, his partner, webmaster, and business manager. I have known him for 17 years and have been privy to everything stated in his bio, the majority of which was written by ME, then I asked Joseph Iorillo (Vargo's official biographer, who has known him for 20 years and who wrote the bio for the art book) to help me redraft a better, more factual version of the bio. Iorillo helped to clean up my earlier draft, using a good portion of what he already provided for the art book (which is copyrighted and registered by yours truly). I also researched the dates of various publications and appearances from actual signed contracts between Vargo and the various broadcast companies and/or publishers. So all of your prior complaints of copyright infringement are baseless. Believe me, if there was any copyright infringement happening, I also have Power of Attorney for Vargo and would take immediate action. (NOTE: It is equally an infringement of copyright to deny an author of a particular work to claim that authorship). Cryptic, I ask you just WHO would be an acceptable biographer, some fan who never met this artist?
    • Yes, actually, that would be better. That person would go and do their research, find reliable sources to cite and not fall foul of anything in WP:AUTO. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Whether you are Vargo or his business partner isn't particularly relevant, as you still have a direct financial interest in promoting him. I note that you have exactly zero edits to Misplaced Pages, either under your username or editing anonymously, that are not related to Vargo, his company, or his bands. Furthermore, as several of those commenting below are insiting on commenting on the content, rather than the deletion process as WP:DRV demands, it should be pointed out that all of the music and nearly all of the publications on the page's current incarnation are self-published; and that we have a bit of jargon on Misplaced Pages for those who cite their personal experiences and own work: original research. —Cryptic (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have provided my email in earlier discussions to all the editors (Cryptic, you included). I never once DEMANDED anything of you, so don't go putting that spin on things. I was totally new to this site before two weeks ago, and was not aware of the deletion process until the page was actually removed. I was instructed by two other editors to "move" the revised page back into place from my User Page after they both agreed to the revisions. Check the discussions at and on my own talk page
  • As to notoriety, the Wiki guidelines state very plainly what criteria must be met, and I have provided all the information required. Likewise, the simple Google search criteria has been met (and exceeded.) If you cannot see that this is a valid article, then I have about 20 other articles I would like to submit for deletion based on the same reasons that Cryptic has provided. Blooferlady 15:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • undelete - It looks to me like Vargo is sufficiently notable to be included. If copyright paperwork is necessary it sounds like it will be forthcoming. Language that is overly promotional for an encyclopedia can be corrected in the normal course of editing; Any original research likewise. Tom Harrison 16:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete - As per Tom Harrison. Creator has shown willingness to work within Wiki-standards, cut out POV where identified, et cetera. Should assume good faith that questions about copyright status will be addressed. --CBD C 16:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I observe of course that Blooferlady has been spamming talk pages, mine included, about this debate. My opinion stands. AfD deleted this, and no new information is available now that was not available then. -Splash 17:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Whilst my previous statement is true, I get the impression from hypothetically constructing an AfD nomination of my own that there may be elements of at least Joseph Vargo's biography that could cause debate at AfD — a debate probably obscured by the outright vanity of the previous article. Nox Arcana really aren't very interesting except for the association with Vargo; they should probably only be mentioned within his article. Given that, a re-run of the AfD on a newly written article might make sense. If Blooferlady really wants it, the previous one can be undeleted and re-AfD'd but it was pretty sickly and would deserve re-deletion. I'm not interested in the copyright questions, since the tone of the article was the tone of a promotional website and there is no question that such is not what we want. Allow recreation and then AfD it. If as suggested above, Blooferlady plans to operate with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, then the AfD may be worthwhile. -Splash 17:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Splash: Spamming was never intended. It was stated by Cryptic that no one had voted to undelete HERE in this discussion, though they had approved the revised article in other discussion. Mr. Harrison also suggested that when leaving comments in talk pages to alert the user that a comment had been posted. I simply wanted to point out that this seems to be where the vote is counted. I still don't know what Afd means. Look, if it's all that big of a deal, just forget it. I'll just go and submit a deletion for everything I have contributed, including Joseph's earlier band project 1. Blooferlady 01:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • People often try to browbeat people into participating partisanly in (un)deletion debates — it generally meets with a chilly reception, and I'm sorry you were guided otherwise. You appear to have learnt what AfD is, though. I don't honestly know why you've suddenly blanked everyhting and now want everything deleted: at least two of us here (me and Zoe below) have said that, if you write the articles neutrally and factually they can be recreated (but possibly subject to an AfD). FWIW, I don't think the new version of Nox Arcana meets the WP:NPOV requirement because it is just your opinion that they write haunting music. Find some reliable media source agreeing with you and cite it, would be a good way to start. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Despite Blooferlady's spamming of my Talk page, I stand by my vote above. The AfD was valid. If she wants to rewrite the articles to make them follow WP:BIO and WP:VAIN, and they do so, then I have no objections to their being recreated. BTW, Blooferlady, as a Dracula fan and a fan of vampire lit in general, I love your User name. User:Zoe| 01:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I've put this section back in, since it was removed and replaced with a {db} tag, and a rather annoyed sounding message about wanting to withdraw the request. I just wanted to point out that Nox Arcana is blue again — if anyone wants to anything about it. -Splash 02:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I'm learning and was really frustrated, still am a bit. This place is a maze of talk pages. Thanks for the compliment on my user name. I was surprised it was not already taken. Anyway, I really ripped apart my articles, deleting anything other than style description and publishing credits, and therefore I wanted to dump all the old discussion and begin anew. Guess that isn't happening. As for "haunting"... If I quote sources (such as reviews which refer to the music as "haunting") then I'll get slammed for that. If I try to describe the theme, I get slammed. If you want me to cite a source HERE (not on the article page), then I suppose would be the most well known source. The term haunting is universal, as in haunted houses, which uses the term "fightening" in it's description. Haunting is a subtler version of frightening as are creepy, eerie, unsettling, etc. As to another doing their own research, that's fine, and I leave the list of sources to anyone who wishes to dig deeper. The whole reason I began this little quest is because I was alerted to a page that was started which held inaccuracies. I admit that I got carried away in trying to account for everything, but now, I guess I'd prefer that his bio be vague than have it be incorrect. Too much has already been printed that is vague and I thought it would help to be clear and exact in detail.

United Bimmer

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United Bimmer

Would it be possible to undelete this article? It was created by a member to explain the history and foundation of our community. It's a very tight-knit group of members, and this article has been referenced many times explaining people who we are and where we came from. There's no advertising in here, as it's simply informative about the history of an organization, which I feel is appropriate in an Encyclopedia.

  • Endorse clsoe (keep deleted). The AfD looks valid, and being a "tight-knit group" if anything suggests lack of intest to thsoe outsiede the group. wikipedia is not a free hosting service, an article describing the group for the benefit of those interested in jopining properly belongs on your own web site. I see no independent sources cited in the article, and no indication that it is in any way notable to anyoen outside the group. If you have such info, create a new article which cites it and expalins how the gorup is significant to those who are not members. DES 17:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted valid (and unanimous) AfD! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

contingent work

Can we undelete this article? There doesn't appear to be any valid reason for its deletion. Sure, the name of the article is something of a neologism, but one which is frequently used when discussing social issues, comparing contingent work with proper jobs.

We do have an article about McJobs, which is also a neologism, and admittedly the two subjects have a fair bit of common ground. However, a serious commentator on employment policy wouldn't use the term McJobs. I think there is enough ground for them to be two separate articles.

To be honest, I don't understand why Misplaced Pages doesn't want people to know what contingent work is, and the history behind it. Squashy 10:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

To put this into context: Contingent work was the subject of a VfD in July 2005, and the result was its deletion. Squashy created a new article, which I deleted, explaining to him the reasons. He then recreated it, as well as asking for it to be undeleted here. Let's assume that that that was a mistake of some kind; still, the proper thing for him to do now is to follow the prescribed course. I did advise him to take it to Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:45, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist. The majority of the comments in the original AfD debate labeled the initially deleted version of the article as an essay or original research, with the minority opinion claiming the article was savable but needed to go through cleanup. Squashy's new version appears to be a complete rewrite that does not suffer from the original's problem of being a personal essay. As such, I do not believe that a speedy deletion as recreation of previously deleted material is justified. --Allen3  12:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete -- invalid speedy deletion. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete and relist". Don't recreate without good reason, a re-write is good reason.Voice of All 14:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the comments so far. I appreciate that the article I've written is far from perfect - and I haven't cited any sources yet - however, the majority of the votes in favour of its deletion were concerned with its content - that it was a personal essay - and not due to any inherent flaw in having an article on the subject in the first place. I appreciate that it's a neologism - but then again, so are many of the articles at Category:Neologisms - that's not a good enough reason to keep it deleted, in my opinion. I have created this article from scratch, without having access to the original article which was deleted before it - however, I have lost some of my most recent edits to it. Thanks. Squashy 15:31, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Overturn the speedy deletion. The first deletion was in order as deletion of a personal essay (and, in my opinion, probably copyvio). The versions created beginning on 15 Nov 2005 were not substantially similar content. The speedy delete criterion should not have applied. As for the most recent version, I see no reason to immediately list it for AFD. It's a new article that still needs cleanup but that's normal. The topic is certainly relevant and encyclopedic since a number of reputable articles have links to it. Rossami (talk) 16:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The consensus seems clear, so I've undeleted the article, But I'm not sure if a relist is appropriate, so I'll leave that still under consideration. Titoxd 21:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 05:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


Hellogoodbye

Can we please get this undeleted? The page is now redirected to a Beatles song, which is just incorrect. The original page was deleted. At the RFD debate, it was claimed it didn't meet WP:MUSIC. This is untrue, however, the band has "gone on ... a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country", that country being the US (see hellogoodbye's site ), and has been "prominently featured in any major music media" (receiving plenty of press coverage including and their video on MTV). Whatsmore, there are over 300,000 hits on Google and they are signed to a major label (Drivethru Records). Additionally, they've only released an EP and a DVD: not quite the 2 albums suggested, but not far off. Halo 12:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

November 19

CrystalCherry

Needs to be returned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryrain (talk • contribs) 06:06, 2005 November 19 (UTC)

Why? --Nlu 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Brian Peppers

The page is protected, and, judging from the talk page, it looks like there is significant support for unprotection. zellin t / c 03:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

AFD discussion - note: this link also covers several subsequent discussions. Apparently, the discussion was twice improperly restarted on the same page rather than creating new discussion pages.
  • Strong oppose. The same reasons why it doesn't belong still exist, however. The fact that we have "significant support for unprotection" (almost all of it from anonymous IPs) doesn't mean that it should be undeleted. It will be a magnet for vandalism, and there is no way to do it tastefully. Misplaced Pages does not have to go with the flow of the Internet on this. --Nlu 03:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse the original deletion and the subsequent speedy-deletion as re-created content. This "article" has no place in Misplaced Pages. Looking at the pervasive history of vandalism through the page history, I also endorse the protection of the page to prevent re-creation. Rossami (talk) 06:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted valid VfD. Also, some topics just plain aren't encyclopedic. Peppers did something naughty. Nobody seems to know the exact nature of his crime, but it couldn't possibly have been anything earth-shattering, since he only got 30 days for it. He also happens to have some sort of condition or physical deformity. That's it. Fails WP:BIO by a wide margin. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Valid AfD. BDAbramson T 16:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy. Vandalism is specifically listed as a Problem that does not require deletion. WP:BIO is not an official policy. If it was, we would have a lot less articles now. There certainly is a way to do it tastefully! The reason why many feel he deserves an article is not because he is a minor sex offender and not even because he has a minor deformity but because he is an internet phenomenon. He is certainly notable enough for Misplaced Pages on those grounds. zellin t / c 17:03, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - This alleged "Internet phenomenon" fails to live up to the standards of "It's a trap!" or "All your base" or whatever. "Brian Peppers" gets just 26,900 Google hits. Compare "All your base" scoring nearly 1 million. Misplaced Pages is not a repository for anything anyone ever laughed at on a forum. I expect alleged Internet phenomena to display an above-average level of interest to be worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages. FCYTravis 17:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, per FCYTravis.--Sean|Black 21:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Not every "internet phenomenon" is worth documenting in an encyclopedia, as I've already argued on the talk page. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-19 21:53:10Z
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Process-wise, it is a valid deletion/protection against recreation, and content-wise, please, it is an attack page/non-notable bio. Titoxd 21:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Making fun of someone for looking bizarre is NOT encyclopaedic. The 30-day jail sentence is just a red herring; are you listing all the other non-notable sex offenders who received a minor 30-day sentence? Also, by the wording, simply touching a person on the thigh could constitute a "sex offense." I'm not endorsing this person, just saying that the only reason this became a minor internet phenomenon is because of what this person looks likeRyoung122 23:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: The deleted content is being effectively re-created in the article's Talk page. It is unusual to re-delete an article's Talk page especially since the "protected" template explicitly says "talk about it there" but it may be appropriate in this case to clean out and protect the Talk page as well. Rossami (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: It is obvious that this is a lost cause but I just want to point out:
To the people who said he served a 30-day sentence and is thus not notable, no one would argue he is notable on those grounds. He is notable because he is an internet phenomenon.
And, sure, it is not up to All your base but is Sealand up to China? Of course not but the fact that we have such a comprehensive article on Sealand is part of the reason why Misplaced Pages is so great. zellin t / c 17:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Fúsíjama Basketball Club International

This was a infopage about my basketball team in Iceland. Not quite sure why it was deleted but if someone thinks this was just a ego boost or something, this basketball team played in the 2nd league in the Icelandic division. Please undelete :) Einzi

No article by that exact title was ever created or deleted. Could you perhaps have mistyped the title? Rossami (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Could be .. chanced the name to a right title ( I hope ) Einzi 11:24, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
Thank you. and AFD discussion
  • Undelete and list on AfD - I vote for this page to be undelated. The info found on the page was historicly accurate and not meant to be an ego boost in any way. --- Sturlast 11:48, 19 November 2005
  • Endorse Hm. Valid AfD at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Fúsíjama_Basketball_Club_International, and though the team claims to be playing in the 2nd division (third level) of Icelandic basketball , I can find no evidence of that at the neutral source here: (or maybe it's me not understanding Icelandic properly). Overturn and relist. New information brought to light. Sam Vimes 13:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Allthough the name Fúsíjama can't be found we played under the flags of Reynir Hnífsdal to avoid troubleling paperwork and expenses. Einzi 15:09, 19 November 2005 (GMT)
  • Endorse, keep deleted. Have to agree with Sam Vimes. In general, amateur sports clubs are not considered to be valid topics, you almost need to either be, or been, in the top league to be considered unless the sport is really major in that country. The premier league basketball clubs in Iceland are OK topics, amateur clubs are just to numerous. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Undelete The team played in the Icelandic 2nd division from 1999-2005 . The team is registered under the name Reynir Hnífsdal, as the Icelandic Sport Federation does not allow teams to compete under foreign names in domestic leagues. It was however widly recognised under the name Fúsíjama as can been seen here on KKÍ´s homepage (KKÍ is the Icelandic Basketball Federation). The reason for the deletion is said to be that it could not be confirmed that Fúsíjama actually played in official divsion, I belive that should be comfirmed now. Also I disgree with that only major clubs should be allowed on Misplaced Pages. The goal of Misplaced Pages is to create, among others, the largest encyclopedia in history in both breadth and depth. Discriminating official sport teams because they haven´t reached the top level of their country´s competition, and even if they are a fairly well known team in their country, is by my opinion at least, not in the spirit of that goal. Sturlast 18:57, 19 November 2005 (GMT).
    • Fair point. At least that's new, verifiable information, and the judgment of whether that is notable enough for WP should be done at AfD, not here. I would suggest you rewrote it, though, because from what I could gather from the AfD nomination the content was violating NPOV Sam Vimes 19:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

November 14

Category:Soviet spies

Was not deleted and split due to lack of consensus on CfD. This fact is immaterial, as the category is hopelessly POV, and the community is not empowered to vote away NPOV rules. Phil Sandifer 06:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Edit: I'm saying that the category should be deleted or split regardless of supposed consensus or lack thereof, because it is in flat violation of existing policy, and a CfD vote cannot overrule NPOV. Phil Sandifer 07:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I'm confused: what's being asked here? --Calton | Talk 07:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that Snowspinner is requesting a review of the closing of the CfD vote based on a supposed lack of consensus, because the category is inherently based on a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. The category includes individuals who have not been convicted of or even charged with spying, such as Harry Magdoff. As it was pointed out in the CfD discussion, the existence of this category puts Wikipeida at risk for a defamation suit. 172 07:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I thought this page was for review of stuff that's been deleted already, not a second shot at AfD or CfD.
      • In any case, I suggest being bold:
      • There's more than one way to skin an NPOV cat, as it were. --Calton | Talk 07:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Yes, however when clear evidence that something is not NPOV has been provided, it has to go, and no amount of foot-stamping can make a difference. I would have simply been bold, but I'm tired of the backbiting that ensues when one is bold in ways that people disagree with. Phil Sandifer 07:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Shrug. Like the Nike slogan goes, Just Do It. Like I said, if the supporters want the category, they have to use it properly (make bed, lie in it, etc) instead of using it as a kind of McCarthyite club to beat their opponents with. BTW, I went ahead and created Category:Accused Soviet spies: I'd populate it immediately, but I gotta go now. --Calton | Talk 08:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • This page isn't just for review of what's deleted; it is for reviewing any decision related to deletion. So yes, a close-as-no-consensus is reviewable, especially if the object to be deleted is in violation of one of our core policies. But here the problem doesn't seem to be the existence of the cat, but the fact that it's used wrongly. I'd say a viable solution would be to rename the cat to Category:Alleged Soviet spies and put in a cat redir, then add a cat Category:Convicted Soviet spies. Radiant_>|< 10:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As usual, Radiant is correct. Great idea! Xoloz 19:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close do not delete or rename out of process. While snowspinner is correct that a consensus on CfD cannot over-ride the NPOV policy, the question of whether this category is inherently PoV, or is simply being used in a PoV way, or indeeed is neither, is a factual question, properly to be determind by the specific consensus in a CfD discussion. This should remain until theere is a consensus to rename or delete it. I woudl advise submitting a new ans separate CfD nomination aimed specifically at a rename as a first step towards User:Radiant's solution. Remember that unlike articels, categorys are only suppsoed to be renamed by consensus, and that CfD handles renames as well as deletions. If anyone incorrectly applies "Be Bold" to this non-editing action, and renames or deletes this category unilaterally, the action should be summeraily reversed and the actor admonished at a minimum. DES 20:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • In the case of a contentious topic and what it would be understatement to call "serious questions" about the fairness of the trials and judicial system on, I think the POV questions are pretty clear cut. Phil Sandifer 00:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, moving of categories is handled at CfD, but that's largely only a convenience as far as I know. Moving articles to a different category is an editing action, and can be done at any time by anyone who thinks it improves the Wiki. All the stuff in this category needs to be fixed regardless of the AfD result, and be bold clearly applies. -- SCZenz 02:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I've gone ahead and been bold in recategorizing several people for whom there is no evidence of an admission of espionage or a conviction for an espionage-related crime. FCYTravis 01:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Mazel tov. Each of the articles is watched by a contingent of editors with a quite a strong ideological bent. If bets were being taken on Misplaced Pages, I'd place a pretty large sum on your efforts at recategorizing some of the individuals getting reverted in no less than 12 hours. 172 01:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
      • What, to me, is really ugly, are all the people pages named "John Doe (spy)" - that's just a flat-out accusation in the very page title. FCYTravis 02:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
        • I've done some recategorizing myself, and Lord, it's a mess: I can see why Snowspinner was bothered by this. Many of the ones I've come across are so blatantly POV, like the one that began, Samuel Dickstein (5 February 1885 - 22 April 1954) was a Democratic Congressional Representative from New York, a New York State Supreme Court Justice, and spy for the Soviet Union, whose only proof or backing was "The VENONA Project says so."
        • Click around on articles from Category:Soviet spies and you'll find far worse examples, substubs beginning with the form "NAME graduated from UNIVERSITY. In 19XX, he worked for AGENCY, and was a Soviet spy"; they usually contain little actual biographical detail (missing things such as, you know, YEAR of birth or death, actual life accomplishments or jobs, legal entanglements or verdicts, etc.); nothing except "SPY SPY SPY says the Venona Project".
        • And if the cats get reverted; well, the reverters with strong ideological bent wouldn't have a policy leg to stand on, since NPOV trumps their ideology every time. --Calton | Talk 02:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Endorse close of no consensus: As DES said, there is no POV violation in the existence of the category, only in the part of the pages that includes them in the category. Good for FCYTRavis in fixing. The CfD discussion (which had no delete votes besides the proposer, only keep and rename votes) has a suggestion by User:TJive to start the category Category:Americans named in VENONA, which seems appropriate here. --- Charles Stewart 19:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Recently concluded

  1. Megan racing: kept deleted
  2. Mimi Yu: kept deleted, no prejudice against recreation if sources are given
  3. Body parts slang: kept deleted
  4. Bananas come from Pluto: kept deleted
  5. Rules of Make Believe: kept deleted
  6. Innovism: kept deleted
  7. Leeroy Jenkins: kept redirected, since after a lengthy discussion there was no majority, let alone a consensus, to overturn.
  8. Yoism: kept deleted
  9. Fuckfrance: kept deleted.
  10. GnuFU: undeleted, pending transwiki to Wikibooks.
  11. Niki Ashton: speedy undeleted and posted at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Niki Ashton.
  12. Nayla bint Farasa: kept deleted
  13. Regret: speedy undeleted, not posted AFD; G4 speedy was invalid, as article was entirely different from the originally deleted one
  14. William Renner: kept deleted
  15. Diary-X: undeleted, posted at AFD: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Diary-X 2
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