Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bishonen (talk | contribs) at 15:24, 24 June 2009 (tl;dr). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following is reposted here. John Vandenberg 21:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I've lain low with regard to Jimbo Wales' block of me, because I wanted first to wait and see if the matter might work itself out if I gave it a few weeks (see contributions). I've been working at Misplaced Pages for five years, mainly writing content—you can consult Raul654 for the quality of my work, if you like—and I guess I had a notion that some value might accrue to that, but it seems I was mistaken. I'm taking an indefinite break, not just because Jimbo Wales has called me a "toxic personality"—a quite remarkably personal attack, from which he had to be pried loose in a meanly unapologetic statement. And not just because of the demeaning way he blocked me: without warning; without discussion; in retaliation and punitively; blocking a user with five years of squeaky clean block log under her bra; blocking a user vulnerably asleep and thereby incapable of self-defence; blocking without care for context ( ); and blocking in a hurry.
And he blocked me under the banner of holding himself "to the highest standard", yet. No, it wasn't just that, but because other issues have been piling up, making me mull over whether this is a good place to be: compare User:Yomangan's farewell message, and Llywrch's post.
I'll save people a question: what made me expect satisfaction, even an apology, from Jimbo Wales? Well, I didn't really, for it was not, in my view of his personality, to be expected. But I've become aware that he has—in secret corners of the project—in non-transparent places—received some major criticism for his block of me, and I guess I figured he might have the grace to admit to me and/or others that the block was problematic and that it demonstrated extra low rather than extra high standards. No soap, though. Indeed perhaps you and I had a culture clash, Mr Wales: California versus Northern Europe. Hasta luego, all my friends. Probably I'll return one day, even though it seems so un-tempting right now; but I understand that people do. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• Hi, Jimbo. I've been waiting for some commentary from you about your block of me, as suggested on your talkpage by John Vandenberg. Do you have anything to communicate in relation to the points I brought up above on June 7? Any response? Argument? Discussion? Bishonen | talk 14:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC).

1. I did not call you a 'toxic personality' and indeed went out of my way to clarify that. I think that our ongoing toleration of toxic behaviors leads to an environment in which good authors, such as yourself, feel a need to lash out at people in ways that are clearly inappropriate - and I consider that to be quite unfortunate. Toxic personalities create a toxic environment in which good authors can't do the work they want to do.

The solutions to this are not simple and are not straightforward, but I think it clear that we need to take action to raise the level of civility in the project.

Let me be clear about this. Your content contributions have been many and varied and of great quality and value. They are much appreciated by me and many others. I am disappointed that we have not been able to provide you a work environment that allowed you to flourish without the sort of toxic environment that caused you to lash out like you did. And I'm disappointed that you allowed yourself to sink to that level - I know you are capable of much better, and I would like to help create an environment where the work is allowed to blossom, and the people causing drama are shown the door.

2. As a part of that process, though, one thing that we absolutely must do is insist that it is never appropriate for an administrator to lash out and curse at people, no matter how provoked they might feel. When you wrote "you little shit" to another user, you were doing something wrong. I will not accept that kind of behavior from an admin in Misplaced Pages, this is not what we are about. It is not ok to act that way.

If you want to join me in asking that we refuse to have a toxic environment in Misplaced Pages, I am happy about that. And I hope you will realize that it has to start with the admins.

3. You seem to be suggesting that the block was bad because you were in the right in doing that. If that's true, then I'm sorry to hear it. If you think it's ok for a Misplaced Pages admin to snap at someone like that, then you are mistaken, and I hope that you will change your mind. You might consider apologizing to your victim.

4. I am happy to answer further questions and engage in further constructive dialog. There are several interesting questions here, and I'm afraid there are no easy answers.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. I've tried, quite unsuccessfully, to keep my own response equally brief.

1. I did not call you a 'toxic personality' and indeed went out of my way to clarify that. (I'm not going to quote the famous phrase again, unless it unavoidably comes up; I've heard it enough, and you will know what I mean.) Sorry, I can't accept what you say here. You certainly did call me that; "clarifying" that you did not, doesn't make it so. You might consider apologizing for using such language (even though I would feel a little ridiculous if I called myself "your victim" in the context.) Whether or not you intended such a slur, you actually did. Per John Vandenberg and many others, you did not intend it: "Jimbo did clarify that he did not intend to label you as a toxic personality,"" I'm not in your head, nor are these other people: only you know your intentions; I only know what you wrote. If the label was unintended, you might have been more careful with it. I don't know where you're supposed to "acknowledge" that it was not an "ideal" way of speaking, either: "Jimbo acknowledges that his use of "toxic personalities" was not ideal." An apology for misspeaking would IMO be more becoming than a huffing and puffing "no I didn't" at this point. See how I, for example, don't deny calling Daedalus a little shit? Try it.

Anyway... you created a mystery, in minimal Non-apology apology mode, by speaking exclusively in the present tense: "I do not think that Bishonen is a toxic personality" . Who are your toxic personalities, then? Those people of whom we have "been too tolerant, for too long"? And how is it appropriate to refer to them in such a way? Did you suddenly come to think of some unknown people? (Or, by inspiration and association, come to think of Giano? That's perhaps more likely, and has been suggested to me by several functionaries. You're the only one who knows your own thought processes, though.) In any case, IMO, the notion that you were referring to somebody other than me stretches credulity. I wish you'd be more frank and less evasive. Or, even better, that you'd be quite silent on the subject of my personality, because that's not something that's your business. For you to discuss my character, and to mention the badness of mere cuss words, in the same breath, is quite disrespectful. And your attempts to prevent cuss words from breaking out all over the site are like the little Dutch boy trying to hold back the tide with his finger. You say you "will not accept" those words. But you do accept them, in great quantities, every day; you'd need a huge and busy phalanx of civility police in order not to accept them, and many more hours in the day, and far more autocratic power than you actually possess. The tide is against you.

Your way—what I for my part see as your excessive concern with words, while performing incivil actions, such as your block of me—is quite unbalanced, in my opinion. And to do such things while praising your own "gentleness" and "kindness". —well, I will come back to the question of balance between words and actions, and of your blocks in particular, later, if you're still listening. I just want urgently to register my opinion, here, that if I thought such words as "toxic" proper to use—to apply to humans—which I don't—your block of me, as well as other unnecessary, non-vandalism, counter-policy blocks placed by both you and other admins, are examples of what I would call "toxic behaviors". They do a lot of harm.

3.You state that You seem to be suggesting that the block was bad because you were in the right in doing that. I didn't mean to suggest that, no. Your block was bad on its own merits. And, checking my description up top of the various things that were wrong with it (an incomplete list), I'm rather surprised that you don't seem to have taken my criticisms on board. I'll come back to these criticisms some time later, if you'll permit me, and then also discuss the matter of User:Daedalus969 (as far as is appropriate when he doesn't have access to this page, i. e. very little.)

Your repeated use of the word "toxic" as an incantation in your post does not provide the clarity that I assume you intended, at least it doesn't make your point clear to me. "Toxic personalities create a toxic environment"... "join me in asking that we refuse to have a toxic environment in Misplaced Pages"..."ongoing toleration of toxic behaviors". Who are those toxic personalities? What are the toxic behaviors they indulge in? And, especially, what is the toxic environment which they create? You and I obviously have very different views of human motivation. Let me suggest what I think is a clearer and less occult reading of the word "toxic": I know of no single piece of behavior in the community that has a more bitter—more "toxic"— harvest than blocks. Blocks should be used only when absolutely necessary, such as to stop ongoing vandalism, because their effect is so bad. I believe it is now widely accepted in the admin community that so-called "civility blocks" are pernicious. My personal belief is that nothing loses the project more well-meaning established editors than those types of blocks do, together perhaps with ham-fisted arbitration remedies. Those editors should be the backbone of the project, and the teachers of the new arrivals; but in reality they not merely leave in great numbers, but leave in bitterness. The project takes very poor care of the editors that are its "institutional memory"—let me again suggest a read of this. I can't conceive of a worse—in fact, of a more toxic—way of attempting to deal with them, than through the humiliation of blocks. A look at your blocking log, Mr Wales, shows you to be a bull in a china shop in this context. You should consider surrendering your block button. Please think about it. If you would indeed "like to help create an environment where the work is allowed to blossom", giving up your own block tool, while admittedly a minor matter, would be a concrete, practical place to start; those are always more convincing than pretty words and incantations. I'll paraphrase your own statement above: "I think that our ongoing toleration of unnecessary blocks leads to an environment in which good authors can't do the work they want to do." And in which they leave. See WP:NPA, a well-written and humane policy too often unread (though frequently cited), for an explanation of which (few) kinds of blocks are in fact necessary. Bishonen | talk 15:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC).