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• WP:AE

Requests for enforcement

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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following: All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction. The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may: ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email. Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template. A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted. Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies: The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and: the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or the restriction was an indefinite block. A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction: a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE, a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN, a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA. Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped. Standard of review On community review Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption. On Arbitration Committee review Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action. The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction. This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator. Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state: Appeals by sanctioned editors Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may: ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org). Modifications by administrators No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without: the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped. Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied. Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions. Important notes: For a request to succeed, either (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify. These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue. Information for administrators processing requests Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give. A couple of reminders: Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request. When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X". Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Gazifikator

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Gazifikator

User requesting enforcement:
Grandmaster 12:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Gazifikator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

1. First rv
2. Second rv

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

1. Gazifikator was placed on editing restriction by Nishkid64 (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
block, and topic ban on Moses of Chorene

Additional comments by Grandmaster:
Gazifikator (talk · contribs) has been placed on editing restriction, which limited him to 1 rv per week. However today Gazifikator made 2 rvs on the article about Moses of Chorene, removing the quotes from professor Robert W. Thomson, a notable expert on the subject. This is a clear and deliberate violation of the remedy. In addition, this user has been engaged in disruptive activity on the article in question for quite some time, reverting any attempts by other editors to include the opinion of the western scholarship on the subject of the article. Therefore, in my opinion, a topic ban on editing the articles related to Moses of Chorene should also be considered. Grandmaster 12:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Gazifikator

Statement by Gazifikator

User:Grandmaster previously iniciated 3 editwarrings ( etc) with different users at Moses of Chorene article, and despite last time the article was unprotected by the same Nishkid who noted that he will "reprotect if edit warring flares up" , Grandmaster continues POV-pushing. At the same unprotection day a 'new user' comes who reverted to Grandmaster's old version again . And as this 'idea' was also unsuccessful, Grandmaster started another unconsensused editwarring. He adds a detailed minority view, which goes against WP:WEIGHT and is a direct continuation of his previous editwarrings. I explained it many times at the talk, as well as provided more reliable sources criticizing Prof. Thomson's view, who was just a translator of Khorenatsi. But Grandmaster continues his POV-pushing to the article, and he is the only user who's topic ban is really justified. Gazifikator (talk) 13:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Please see my comments here: . Given the context, it seems odd that Grandmaster would intentionally ignore the discussion that he participated in and go ahead with those changes. Strikes me like baiting. Sanctions need to be applied evenhandedly.-- Ευπάτωρ 14:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Gazifikator

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Parishan

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Parishan

User requesting enforcement:
Ευπάτωρ 23:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Parishan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:
Severe edit warring in the past 3 weeks:

• Gago Drago , The name of the town was Verinshen in 1985, when he was born, Parishan replaces it with the current Azeri renamed name.

• Ganja Foreign names were first removed by Proger. Parishan reverted to that version. , ,

• Julfa Brandmeister removed the Armenian spelling (he called it tweaked). Parishan reverted to that version. , ,

• Azerbaijani people Parishan placed them as Hanafi, then reverted when that is replaced. , .

• Kars , Atabek removed the Armenian term and replaced it with Georgian. Parishan reverts to that version.

• On Lingua Franca he launched a slow revert war that he resumed recently. It all started several months ago when VartanM removed Parishan's addition. . From then on, Parishan engaged in a slow revert war. , . Mackrakis modified it to comply with the sources Parishan used, it did not satisfy Parishan. , he continued to revert war. , , , , , , , . He stopped for a while, but recently started again. , , .

• Made drastic changes to the Armenian churches template. , followed by a partial revert. then revert:

• Removed the link to Armenia from an Armenian monastery. , then reverted the compromise.

• Revert war with IPs here. , , , , , , . Then continues against registered users. ,

• I think this is sufficient to get the picture. If not, I will add more. Note that Parishan was almost placed under restrictions during AA1 already. See here: I will not hesitate to initiate a motion to modify this remedy after the case is closed if you involve yourself in edit wars or other disruptive types of editing.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
See below, under 'Additional comments'.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
High time for AA2 restrictions to apply to Parishan

Additional comments by Ευπάτωρ :
Note that Parishan was informed officially (that is by uninvolved admins) twice of AA2 restrictions, here and here unlike most users. While the initial reverts were against AzeriTerroru (probable sock account), they are mostly reverts to recent controversial changes. Rest of the reverts were against other users.

In the recent past, various admin’s have confirmed that Parishan has a tendency to edit war but he's not under restrictions. See Deacon of Pndapetzim 's comment and the following report here.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:

Discussion concerning Parishan

Statement by Parishan

What we see here is a random collection of all article reverts (controversial, non-controversial, sockpuppet reverts, anonymous vandalism reverts, and even plain edits) that I happened to perform in the past three weeks presented here as a gigantic list of instances of 'edit warring.'

In addition to not being a revert, edit (1) is merely clarification of non-controversial information. It does not take a wiseman to figure out that being born in the given town physically cannot imply being born in the mentioned region. Mind you, it was never disputed further, so the term edit warring does not apply here.

Edits (2) through (12) are reverts of a sockpuppet who could not think of anything better to do than to stalk edit histories of Azerbaijan-related article contributors undoing all their recent edits. His/her reverts would have to be undone eventually.

Edits (12) through (15) do not qualify as 'edit warring.' The other party removed information without consulting the provided sources, but the issue was quickly resolved on the article's talkpage.

Edits (16) through (18) are definitely not edit warring. In fact, with those edits I expanded the template adding more links that pertained to the topic and are not disputed (they are still in the template), and left a comment on the talkpage. My single revert in edit (19) was triggered by the other party either not having noticed the proposed discussion on the talkpage or not willing to participate in it. With that, I did not engage in any more reverts.

I wish I could comment on edits (20) and (21) but I am clueless as to what User:Eupator meant by posting them here. Are they supposed to qualify as 'edit warning'? Please elaborate.

Edits (22) and (23) are one-time edits in different articles; calling them 'edit-warring' seems too harsh.

Edits (24) to (27) are reverts of an anonymous vandal who 'specialised' in removing references to Azeris and the Azeri language from as many Iran-related articles, as s/he stumbled upon, and specifically in the case with Farah Pahlavi in removing sourced information about the personality's ancestry. I have tried twice to get the page at least temporarily semi-protected in order to put an end to this IP-switching user's disruptive activity, but neither time the administration considered this case of vandalism severe enough. Parishan (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Eupator, could you please improve the presentation of the evidence so that we can establish more easily whether this is indeed edit-warring? For instance, I am unable to easily determine whether edit #1 is even a revert of somebody. You could complement each entry in the list with the name of the article affected, a diff of the revision reverted to, and the name of the editor who is being warred with.  Sandstein  05:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

In hindsight I see how spending a little more time to organize the diffs would have helped you guys to sort through them.-- Ευπάτωρ 20:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Eupator, have you ever been involved with a content dispute with this editor? It seems likely because you were a named party in the first AA case. I feel we need to do a thorough review of their entire editing over the last few months (to avoid judging on cherry picked diffs), and we should also review your editing (to establish whether you come here with clean or unclean hands). We should not permit editors to use this board as a tactic to gain the upper hand in content disputes. Jehochman 22:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

AzeriTerroru (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) appears to be a single purpose, edit warring account, possibly a sock puppet. I think we need to determine who's running that account. It takes two (or more) to edit war. There is no sense in sanctioning only one side of an edit war. Jehochman 22:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Already blocked by Nishkid64, sock of Shahin Giray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thatcher 00:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• Eupator, what sanctions exactly do you request? The modified AA2 remedies are very broad and allow admins to do almost anything. Parishan has already been notified of the case and the remedies, the next step would be to apply some sort of specific measure. What do you request? Thatcher 00:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Merely the application of standard revert/civility parole (one revert per page per seven-day period with respect to any article that reasonably deals with AA issues) for the duration deemed necessary.-- Ευπάτωρ 01:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Hi Thatcher, gotta say i'm impressed :) However I still believe that Parishan's reverts are part of a disturbing pattern though. One good example is with the article of Kars. On that article Parishan attempted to incorporate the modern Azeri term with a long history of revert warring. , , , , , . Unsuccessful, the Armenian name was removed altogether just recently by Atabek, and when reverted Parishan reverted back. In my opinion Parishan very often uses his additional revert privileges against users under 1RR. On Lingua Franca, this report by Fedayee may be helpful: .-- Ευπάτωρ 02:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment. In a general, I have no problem with spelling for a particular town if there are verifiable NPOV references to do so. In this case, Kars has not much to do with Armenia, except for the fact that Kars province is located on the border of Armenia. Moreover, the origin of the name, as provided by NPOV reference is Georgian (kari - gate) not Armenian, the Armenian spelling cannot even provide the meaning in translation Armenian with a source. Anyways, since this is a topic-specific issue which needs to be resolved on talk page, not sure why this is a subject of discussion in WP:AE, except for lack of WP:AGF. Atabəy (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Inappropriate comment, see the article. On top, it seems Atabəy is confusing "verifiable" and "verifiable by Atabəy". Sardur (talk) 00:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I am aware that content dispute is not allowed here, but for clarity sake I have to note that 'Verinshen' was never the name of that town (this is regarding the edits in Gago Drago). See 28-76 on this Soviet-issued map. Parishan (talk) 08:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher, I do not see a need in banning from editing the page Lingua franca. Perhaps you did not notice that the discussion regarding Azeri involved two sections on the talkpage. In the first section, after the third party review of the issue, I discovered another source and restored the deleted information having provided this new reference (as opposed to "reverting Mackrakis' version", as Eupator is trying to present it here). User:VartanM reverted this edit but ignored my proposition to continue the discussion. I let the crippled version hang in there, even though it was no fault of mine that VartanM's disagreement stemmed merely from being uncomfortable with the word "Azeri" being used on Misplaced Pages (anyone who has read the talkpage can see that he had not cited a single academic source or provided any plausible scienfitic counter-argument in response to about six sources he was presented with). So this is not a case of me insisting on the importance of "Azeri"-ness; really this is a case of VartanM and Fedayee having a problem with the academic use of the word "Azeri" all throughout articles on Misplaced Pages despite its academic validity (in fact, VartanM has been reported precisely for deliberately stripping Misplaced Pages of mentionings of Azeris and Azerbaijan ). Since February I have discovered two or three more independent pieces of evidence to back up the information he kept removing. This time it did not cause any disagreement or controversy. So I really have no idea why I am being considered for punishment as a result of my activity in this article. I would say, I did my best as an editor having had the patience to spend four months on the talkpage over one sentence backed by six or seven sources (found and cited by myself) reacting on outrageously unacademic statements from someone who was clearly trying either to wear me out or to temporise. I am all for reaching compromise, but compromise is not possible when the other party has literally nothing on the table except speculations: no sources, no stable arguments, not even a clear idea of what they are trying to disprove. Also note that while this discussion is going on here, an anonymous account goes around all of the said articles deleting the information added by me, as if attempting to provoke me to edit warring. Parishan (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• Note that Greiwood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was involved in the edit war at Ganja, is blocked as a sockpuppet of a banned user. Thatcher 04:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd like to hear what VartanM and Fedayee have to say about Lingua franca. Thatcher 04:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I will keep this short and concise. The problem is not that Parishan isn't using sources but that the sources he uses do not say what he claims they say. He assumes too much from them. Under those circumstances, I can just not pretend that Parishan ignores the sources he is using do not support his wording and that's why it's impossible to debate with him. See my reply on Lingua Franca here. He also added a new source, but the source is not clear. Note also Parishan's consideration of the other editors version: "...the page is being reverted back to its non-vandalised state." As for the claimed removal of Azeri, Parishan shows a claimed report (his edit) but fails to provide the actual initial reply by VartanM here, the problem was anachronism something which Parishan never addressed. Note that other users' skepticism in trusting that discussion will lead anywhere in Parishan's case is because time and time again he ignores what others say. See those long two replies by an editor here about Parishan's created article , . Parishan does not even bother replying to anything, the only comment he leaves is this after he removes the tag, when most of the reasons given to have the tag have nothing to do with this. If a revert war starts, he has a revert advantage over other editors so no one bothers reverting. That's all I'm going to add for now. - Fedayee (talk) 17:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

For anyone willing to look through the discussion, I think it is enough to assess the quality of argumentation on each side to realise who was driven by a desire to contribute productively to Misplaced Pages and whose only goal was bad-faith POV-pushing. Parishan (talk) 19:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest to that "anyone" to also have a look at the "sources". Sardur (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Let them be my guests. Parishan (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

If it wasn't for Moreschi's intervention here, where he pointed out the obviously more relevant title, you would have continued lumping all Turkic speakers as Azeris. The sources you provide fall vert short of supporting the sentences you put together. You even justified the following and never changed your behaviour since. Here's a simple example of how you cherry pick sources: . You're providing a 1942 map in Russian knowing very well that after that map was produced most of those names were changed as seen here. Even cherry picking has its bounds. Thatcher, I invite you to mediate a discussion in lets say this article and see for yourself what the real problem with Parishan's articles is. Only on few occasions did Parishan correct articles in accordance with the sources, such as here (the source said Turkic). I think you get the picture.-- Ευπάτωρ 00:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Eupator, your desire to fantasise does not limit itself even here. This is an entry from the 1978 issue of the Great Soviet Encyclopædia regarding what you refer to as 'Verinshen.' None of the sources you provided say anything about any 'renaming.'

To administrators: above is exactly the type of behaviour that the users who are reporting me here frequently display during discussions. Speculations, original research and pushing false information despite having facts in front of their eyes in the form of sources, later collective reverting, initiating a chain of countless reverts and as a culmination, reporting the other party for 'POV-pushing' and 'edit warring.' Parishan (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Eupator and Parishan, please stop discussing your disagreements here and limit yourself to comments strictly relevant to the question whether or not Parishan's conduct is disruptive as claimed in the enforcement request.  Sandstein  05:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I know I went off topic. My argument is that 1) Parishan regularly edit wars, 2) He is very often uncivil as seen above ("your desire to fantasise does not limit itself even here") 3) Sees Wiki as a battlefield. For a long while he used to refer to everyone he didn't agree with as an opponent in quite a condescending manner until he was warned not to:. The rest is your run of the mill content dispute and only Thatcher and Moreschi seem to be willing to dig deep and research each matter closely. If Thatcher wants to place new types of restrictions it would be nice to see them enforced.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, I apologise, but I think this little debate says quite a lot about how my edits come to be considered 'disruptive' by Eupator and certain other uses who are heavily involved in the editing of Armenia-Azerbaijan-related articles. Whenever POV-pushing cannot do its trick, the other party's edits are seen as 'disruptive.' Parishan (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Eupator, I have been and still am referring to them as opponents. I have never been warned or been told about its 'condescending' connotation. OED defines an opponent as 'a person who disagrees with or resists a proposal', which is what happens during Misplaced Pages discussions. An example of it being used in a sentence: 'I should not be held responsible for my opponent's poor command of English.' Parishan (talk) 03:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

One interesting point that should not be lost is Sandstein (below) actually complaining about administrators needing to evaluate the content of a contested edit before taking sanctions. The implication in that comment is that Sandstein thinks it OK to shoot first and never even bother to ask questions later. This explains much about his scattergun approach to inflicting sanctions on editors. From several past examples I had assumed he was displaying a most blatant bias. Is it actually the case that he just doesn't give a damn? I would hope that evaluating the content of an edit before applying sanctions would be a basic requirement expected of all administrators. Meowy 18:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I generally agree with Thatcher's take on the issue, but I think that in the article Lingua franca has been disrupted not by Parishan, but by his opponents, who keep reverting sourced info added by Parishan. Therefore I think that people removing sourced info must be placed on restriction. Otherwise, the problem with Azeri and Armenian names in the leads of articles about locations in Armenia and Azerbaijan is a long standing issue. I even initiated an RFC about that a couple of years ago. Generally, Armenian users insist on inclusion of Armenian names in the leads of articles about locations in Azerbaijan, but revert any attempts to include Azeri names for locations in Armenia. I can cite diffs, but at the moment I'm away on vacation and have a limited access to the Internet. I will pursue this issue when I'm back. But there's a problem of Armenian and Azeri names that should be adressed in general. I think something should be done to resolve this problem. Grandmaster 09:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The issue is not who's right or wrong on Lingua franca, but the behaviour of Parishan. Isn't it time to have this settled? Sardur (talk) 23:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Note to Thatcher: Grandmaster has also accused the 'opponents' of Atabek prior to Atabek's topic ban. See for yourself the way Parishan distorts the sources with one clear example. To support his position he quotes from Stephen Adolphe Wurm (see talkpage): The Turkic Azerbaijani language, in the southeastern part of the Caucasus area, has been a very important lingua franca used for inter-ethnic communication. But the actual phrase is this: The Turkic Azerbaijani language, in the southeastern part of the Caucasus area, has been a very important lingua franca used for inter-ethnic communication among speakers of most of the Lezgian languages of the Caucasian Daghestan Group, and also among speakers of some of the Avar languages. He added a period to cut the phrase with the result being to misinterpret the whole sentence. Again, the problem in Parishan's conduct is not that he does not provide the sources, but that he manipulates and misuses sources. Grandmaster's attempt to put on parity Armenian and Azerbaijani for historic places will make any person with the slightest knowledge of the history of the region laugh. This was explained several times, I will not bother bringing this here, more so when it's off-topic. But Thatcher might start here where Baku87 adds the modern Azeri term. Note that over 80% of anything coming from Caucasian Albania came to us from Armenian text, the rest in Persian, Arabic and Greek and that modern encyclopedias do include the Armenian term (see Iranica for example). You get the picture here of the POV pushing in an attempt to include Azeri in every articles where there is Armenian in the picture. - Fedayee (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Parishan provided multiple reliable sources here: , which are all being reverted for no reason. Grandmaster 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Fedayee just above proved that Parishan altered an original source to sustain his position. He provided several examples here.-- Ευπάτωρ 17:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Parishan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Analyzing the diffs. Thatcher 01:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• Gago Drago, Parishan inserts a new fact where article was previously stable, reverts once to keep it, no discussion on talk page
• Ganja, reverts 3 times (twice against sockpuppet), no discussion
• Julfa, 3 reverts (2 against sock), discussion but he does not participate
• Azerbaijani people, content dispute, Parishan added what look to be reliable sources when questioned, no discussion on talk page
• Kars, one revert against sock, no discussion
• Lingua franca, slow revert war against VartanM and Fadayee, extensive discussion seems to be going nowhere, Parishan attempting to provide sources, others dispute his sources. Issue is whether Azeri was ever a regional lingua franca.
• Template, 2 reversions (no banned users or socks), some discussion, reverting against Serouj
• Gtichavank Monastery, reverting against Serouj, no discussion on talk page
• Farah Pahlavi, edit war with Megastrike14 (who edits a lot while logged out), no discussion on talk page

• Comments Lots of contentious editing about the importance of "Azeri-ness" in place names, etc. Many attempts to provide sources, or better sources. Discounting the sockpuppet who was stirring up trouble, most of the remaining reversions are not of major concern. However, use of article talk pages is rare.

• Preliminary recommendations: I am contemplating the following,

1. Banning Parishan, VartanM and Fedayee from Lingua franca indefinitely. They can discuss there issue on the talk page, and when they have reached a stable compromise, the article ban will be rescinded.
2. Placing Megastrike14 and Serouj on formal notice about the case and possible remedies. Warning Megastrike about logged out edits.
3. Warning Parishan to use talk pages more often to negotiate disputed edits rather than reverting (and sometimes trying to explain edits in edit summaries).

Not sure that further is required at this time. Thatcher 01:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I have a further suggestion. I am not sure that 1RR is warranted at this time. Eupator's evidence shows a pattern of Parishan adding Azeri spellings, place name variants, and evidence that people or things were Azeri, but also removing Armenian spellings, place name variants, and links to things or people being Armenian. I'm considering an editing restriction on Parishan, that he may add Azeri spelling and name variants to articles where he believe it appropriate, and where he has reliable sources, but he may not remove Armenian place names, links, and spelling variants from any article. He may suggest such on the talk pages. If there is consensus to remove Armenian names, links and spellings, then someone else may do it. If there is no consensus among the usual editors, Parishan is advised to seek outside advice by RFC or third opinion, or to seek compromise. I'd like to know what other admins think about this; if it seems that it might work, there are several other editors this restriction could be applied to.
• I think that a frequent problem with these articles, which I just realized, is that the inclusion of a linguistic or cultural variant place name or spelling in the lead of an article is used as a way of marking the territory, to say, "See, there is an Azeri name for this place, that proves that it used to be Azeri even though its current status is in dispute." Or, "The Armenians never lived here before the current geopolitical dispute so giving this place an Armenian name is wrong." (Substitute any other ethnic, cultural or political group of your choice.) The use of the lead in this way, to gain traction in a geopolitical dispute, is wrong. In some cases articles contain a discussion of the subject's disputed status, where variant names can go. ("Smith 1998 says the Azeri name for the region was XXX, but Jones 2001 says the Azeris were never a significant presence in the region.") I think there are a lot of editors who are dicking around with adding and removing linguistic variants to the leads of articles, for geopolitical reasons, maybe we can stop this. Presumably, an editor with an affinity for group A will be able to find references to support his argument, if so he should be allowed to add it. But he can not directly remove group B, only propose it on the talk page. We could limit it to the lead and to categories, since that is where most of the trouble is, or make it global. Think it will work in general? Thatcher 05:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the extensive analysis, which I believe is quite correct, especially with regard to the general problem of addition and removal of place names etc. on account of presumed geopolitical bias. Your preliminary recommendations are uncontroversial, I think, and I find your proposed sanction with respect to territorial behavior interesting. I'm not sure, though, whether it is easily enforceable, because administrators would need to evaluate the content of each contested edit individually. Also, editors behaving in this way can be assumed to edit non-neutrally in other respects with regard to their favored group, as well. Might it be easier to just issue brief topic bans to editors that exhibit territorial behavior (i.e., consistently adding/removing contested names, spelling variants, categories etc)? In this case, we may also need to outline the general concept in some guideline related to WP:NPOV.  Sandstein  05:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

With respect to admins evaluating content, that already happens, for example, an article about a pop singer would not normally fall under this case, but would if the editors were fighting about his or her nationality. We already know that editors in this area edit non-neutrally with respect to ethnic and cultural divisions. We don't normally sanction people for having an ethno-cultural POV, but for bad editing behavior in connection with that POV (edit warring, ignoring consensus, dismissing otherwise acceptable sources, personal attacks, etc.) I'm struck by the seemingly large number of disputes that involve article leads and categories. The question for me is whether this would avoid some disputes or merely shift their location to the body of the article. I think it's worth a time-limited test. Insterested in further admin input. Thatcher 11:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the territorial behaviour sanction is too easily gamed. The others seem fine. Stifle (talk) 11:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• With a heartfelt apology for the delay, I will not be following up on this. I agree that a narrow sanction applying to ledes and categories is easily gamed, and will only divert the problem to elsewhere in the article. I recommend cautions and warnings all around, making sure all the required paperwork is completed in the event that additional sanctions are required in the future. Thatcher 14:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Greg L

This issue arose at the village pump (see thread) and I'm bringing this here now before somebody else does, mostly because (while the lameness factor is mystifying) I think I see an easy way out of this dispute:

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Greg L restricted:

15) Greg L (…) is subject to an editing restriction for 12 months. Greg L is prohibited from reversion of changes which are principally stylistic, except where all style elements are prescribed in the applicable style guideline.

Passed 12 to 0 (with 1 abstention) at 18:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC).

I believe this revert is principally stylistic, and not prescribed by any entity other than himself (see Talk:Kilogram: "It makes the articles look better and any editor worth his salt can easily comprehend why they are there").

While I'm sure no true Scotsman would doubt him, Greg's version contains partially overlapping (i.e. improperly nested) element tags, whereas the most applicable style guideline I can find says that documents should be well formed.

The software (and html-tidy extension etc.) does clean up bad code like this, e.g.:

<b>whoever wrote <i>this</b> ought to be shot</i>

<b>whoever wrote <i>this</i></b><i> ought to be shot</i>

This ensures a properly parseable tree of elements, but one should avoid over-relying on post-save corrections as they tend to reinforce bad habits and leave mirror/fork projects complaining when database dumps contain articles and templates with mostly invalid html.

I'm sure exactly what Greg is even trying to do here anyway. The extra 0.1em of space is barely visible at normal font-sizes (and I could personally not care less provided they all look the same), but clearly the correct place for it would be in MediaWiki:Common.css:

sup.reference {
    font-weight: normal;
    font-style: normal;
+   margin-left:0.1em;
    }

I think that would make everyone happy here, but personally I'd suggest using the same margin on the right side too. — CharlotteWebb 12:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

• User blocked for 24 hour in enforcement of the arbitral editing restriction: no Misplaced Pages style guideline prescribes the use of "span" tags. The discussion on the merits about how to format such text should take place elsewhere.  Sandstein  13:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Ah, well… back to the drawing board. I was hoping that wouldn't be necessary. — CharlotteWebb 13:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Aargh! It has been correctly pointed out to me on my talk page that the edit at issue was made prior to the arbitration sanction and cannot therefore be grounds for a block. I apologise to Greg L and have undone the block. I'll be more careful in the future, waiting for the user whose conduct is contested to comment prior to taking enforcement action. And Charlotte Webb, please be more careful also.  Sandstein  13:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Since being unblocked, Greg L has reverted a stylistic change to that same article, Kilogram. See According to this he may be intending to appeal. John Vandenberg 21:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

That is regrettable. Unless somebody can show that this "font color" tag is somehow mandated by a style guideline, I guess we will have to re-block him now.  Sandstein  23:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

• OK, I am an active editor on Fuzzball (string theory) and Kilogram. I am making edits all the time on those articles that involve font color, span gaps, typestyle, the linking and de-linking of words. What in the world does “…except where all style elements are prescribed in the applicable style guideline” mean? CharlotteWebb had to go back through thousands of edits to find an example of where I reverted someone well over a year ago because he/she doesn’t like to see CSS used in Misplaced Pages’s articles.

  Does this mean that if I italicize some text to set it off for emphasis, that unless there is some style guide somewhere that says doing so is “prescribed”, then all editor have to do to jerk my chain is change what I’ve been writing and I can’t even oppose it? I might as well as walk away from Misplaced Pages; I author articles, I’m not a wikignome where I just make spelling corrections on text that is in roman-only font style. What if I link something? If someone goes in and links some totally trivial word in Fuzzball (string theory), such as “mist” in this sentence:

  “Whereas the event horizon of a classic black hole is thought to be very well defined and distinct, Mathur and Lunin further calculated that the event horizon of a fuzzball should be very much like a mist: fuzzy, hence the name ‘fuzzball.’ ”

  …I can’t change it back? That would be a style change, would it not? Is that the ball and chain on my leg? I can author these articles in which I am the major contributor but if anyone comes in and changes it, I can’t undo that change if it can be argued that was stylistic and isn’t “prescribed” (whatever the heck that means), like a 0.2 em gap to keep a refnote tag from colliding with adjacent italicized text? Just give me the word. For if I am so encumbered, I will not edit anymore on Misplaced Pages. Greg L (talk) 01:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  P.S. The “reverting” you mention that I did on Kilogram might well be some sort of trap someone set up for me. That editor didn’t change all the links that refer to the glossary; only four of them (that edit here) and left the vast majority (there are 24 in the article) in place. Go count them in the article and see for yourself. What a way to kludge up a nice article. So if someone goes in and does an incomplete change in an article like this, I can’t undo it; I just leave the article screwed up? Are you serious? This is the limitation on me; just stand back and watch editors muck things up with incomplete hacks? Greg L (talk) 02:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  P.P.S. I’ll be e-mailing an appeal in the next 24 hours formally asking for an adjustment to my restrictions. Please advise where I am supposed to send it. Greg L (talk) 02:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You can either post it on this page (see appeals section above), or if you prefer to e-mail it, send it to the ArbCom mailing list (if you send it to any arbitrator, such as me, he or she will forward to the rest of the list on request). Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• Thank you, Newyorkbrad. I will e-mail it to you or one of the others. Greg L (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping not to see arbitrary knee jerks like what was provoked by Charlotte's post here which does great damage to her honest intentions and her credibility as well as those of the admin who leapt up and blocked Greg. It appears to me that the edit concerned should not be considered a 'stylistic' edit. Closing the html tags is a technical matter. What is of greater concern is that it seems to have set Jayvdb off on a witch-hunt of Greg's actions, choosing an an incident which could be viewed as vandalism of article where Greg is the foremost contributor, whiffs of entrapment. I wonder if my defense of Greg here will set off accusation that I am in breach of participating in a discussion on stylistic matter? :-) Ohconfucius (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I looked at this article because Greg L emailed me and asked me to look at the CharlotteWebb initiated situation above. I looked at the edit history of the article while trying to understand the issue and how a 18 month old diff ended up being used for a block. While looking at the article history it is impossible to miss the fact that the most recent edit, after the block had expired, was by Greg L and appeared to fall within the remedy. John Vandenberg 00:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• I have to wonder about Charlotte’s move. She managed to induce Sanderstein to block, and he (tried to) undo the block after Ryan pointed out that I did that edit in March. Umm… not precisely; I did that edit in March 2008. Charlotte had to wade through some 600 edits to dredge up just the right edit (a reversion—not a simple addition that would be permissible—on a technique she disapproves of). And that technique(?): the use of Cascading Style Sheets, which is a character-spacing technique that the developers ensured is supported by Misplaced Pages’s server engine for a reason and is also used in templates such as the {{val}} template. I used it to move some crowded text, which can occur when footnote tags follow italicized text.

  Then Jayvdb makes style-only changes to just 4 of 24 links that share a common property in the article, leaving me with awkward choice.

  What Charlotte and Jayvdb did—whether by innocent mistake or cunning—amounts in the end to just so much wikidrama and wastes everyone’s time. I have a sprinkler system I’ve been installing and had been hoping to get outside today to work on it early when it was cool. Instead, I spent the whole morning responding to this sort of stuff. I find this whole day’s Misplaced Pages experience to be distasteful. I never pull childish stunts and always try to edit in good faith. I certainly don’t like being like an ape in a cage at the zoo for all the neighborhood kids to bang their sticks on the cage’s bars for their jollies. Greg L (talk) 05:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  "Then Jayvdb makes style-only changes to.." is wrong! I did not touch the article. You reverted another editor, not me. John Vandenberg 00:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Greg L, at the time you made this revert, you were the subject of a Committee decision reading: "Greg L is prohibited from reversion of changes which are principally stylistic, except where all style elements are prescribed in the applicable style guideline." In my determination, the revert at issue was principally stylistic, because all it did was to change the colour of some words. To my knowledge, no Misplaced Pages style knowledge prescribes the use of such colour. You have not, in your comments above, contested that the revert occurred while the restriction was in force, that the revert was stylistic in nature and that it was not prescribed in an applicable style guideline. Instead, you argue that the restriction is a bad idea. However, because Arbitration Committee decisions are binding, we cannot review this restriction here on its merits, but must enforce it. Accordingly, acting under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Enforcement by block, you are blocked for 48 hours. I am choosing this block duration because my previous block of 24 hours (even if mistaken and soon undone) did not deter you from violating your editing restriction.

As to whether the restriction makes sense or not, you will have to take that up with the Committee. If you allow me to provide some advice from my real-life experience with judicial authorities, it is much easier to convince such authorities to reconsider a decision if you have not previously violated it.  Sandstein  06:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• Are you sure you're not just sore that Charlotte made an ass of you, and that you're consequently taking it out on greg? Charlotte's accusation was contrived as it was, as Greg pointed out. I thought we were done with the Kafkaesque drama with User:Locke Cole being banned, but I see now that the fun and games have just started again. Could this be silly season again? Ohconfucius (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
• Silly me - it's 3 days until the next full moon. No wonder! Ohconfucius (talk) 09:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• is a question from a puzzled onlooker okay? is GregL allowed to discuss style-related stuff on article talk pages, or is that also out of bounds for him, per ArbCom's "Greg L is topic banned indefinitely from style and editing guidelines, and any related discussions" (emphasis mine)? since there are a number of editors under similar resitrictions, it seems worth clarifying whether or not they're free to discuss dubious style-related edits instead of reverting them. Sssoul (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  I suppose (and hope) that "related" means "related to style and editing guidelines", not "related to style and editing": the latter would be almost equivalent to a ban from all talk pages. --A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 14:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  • i suppose and hope the same thing, but while observing this ArbCom matter i've supposed and hoped a lot of things that turned out to be unfounded. which is why i hope someone from ArbCom will clarify this. thanks Sssoul (talk) 20:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

  My view is that these editors should be avoiding style discussions anywhere, especially if the discussion is a divisive style issue, or a "meta" discussion. However the remedy is intended to focus on the guidelines and discussions about the guidelines, which could occur anywhere. As a result, style/editing discussions about the specifics of a single article, on its talk page or between engaged editors, are not covered by this remedy.

  Perhaps another wording would be "User x is restricted from participating in change to the guidelines, and from providing unsolicited commentary and interpretation of the guidelines, but is permitted to discuss the implementation of those guidelines to articles they are working on and with users they are working with."

  Like most remedies, this one is clear for the great majority of possible incidents, but there are always scenarios where it is unclear whether a remedy is applicable. Edits to WP:MOSNUM/WT:MOSNUM would almost certainly result in heavy enforcement; however initiating a useful question at Help_talk:Columns wouldn't raise anybodies eyebrow unless the question was somehow laden with barbs.

  Another example of a gray area would be if Greg L participated collegiately in a useful style discussion on Talk:Kilogram, and that discussion moved to a MOS talk page for additional advice, would Greg L be restricted from continuing to discuss the issue at Talk:Kilogram? If something like that happened, I would expect the MOS talk page to mention the ongoing discussion on the Kilogram talk page, and Greg L be permitted to continue with the discussion on the Kilogram talk page. However if Greg L started using the Kilogram talk page to respond to people's comments on the MOS talk page, that would probably result in a less liberal approach to how those gray areas are handled in future.

  Admins are free to interpret the remedy differently. If you want a more binding clarification from the committee, please request it at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification. John Vandenberg 00:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh my. I saw some peripheral reference to the formatting of the kilogram article and went and looked. The massive use of embedded spans is poor form and not in any MOS I've ever seen here; ditto the font-elements. I did a bit of remedial work on the article — removed *all* the green, for example; also fixed heading levels and was about to sort out the spans. I'll wait as it looks like there's a lot to read in this thread. Embedding excessive markup is a bad thing; the whole idea of wiki-markup is that it's supposed to be reasonably 'clean' for unsophisticated editors ('un' in a technical sense). Any such new conventions need consensus first, and MediaWiki/CSS implementations second. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

more

I see now that Greg is blocked over this and that John's involved here, there; and John is a mentor of mine (known to some, of course). I want to say, before anyone thinks to ask, that John in no way put me up to this. I tidy code as I see it. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Appeal against discretionary sanctions by Radeksz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Note: I've contact the administrator who issued the sanction User:Thatcher off wiki and s/he suggested that I file this appeal. I apologize in advance for the length of this request. I have tried to make this appeal as brief as possible while still covering all the points I feel are relevant.

The restriction being appealed

a 1RR per week limit on all Eastern Europe related articles with the possibility of a review after 6 months.

Per descriptive text of the sanction notice, this stems from the fact that there was edit warring at the article Nashi (youth movement) from June 11 to June 21. During these ten days I made 3 (three) edits to the article, spread out over the ten days (i.e. there was no 3RR or even a 1RR violation).

I was also listed in a very minor, tangential manner by Shell Kinney over at though not as one of the “major players”, and almost in an offhanded manner.

The third relevant aspect here is the Digwuren case. I was not involved in that case, I was not put under any restrictions, notice or sanctions because of that case – unlike most editors who received the same sanction handed out by Thatcher in the past week or so.

Discretionary sanctions remedy

I am filing this appeal per: Specifically:

Sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement), or the Committee.

(For reasons mentioned above, I am filing this appeal to the appropriate administrators’ noticeboard, ie. currently this one.)

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines. (my emphasis)

(I never received any kind of warning. I was completely blindsided by this. I was never counseled, nor was I ever given an opportunity to improve my editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines)

Discussion concerning the request

Short version

There are three reasons why this sanction was inappropriate and why it should be rescinded:

• The sanction was unduly harsh and purely punitive (1RR/Week more or less INDEF, for making 3 reverts in 10 days)
• Appropriate procedure was not followed when issuing a sanction (no prior warning, counseling or log of such). My name is the ONLY that does not appear under out of all the ones that had been placed under sanctions by Thatcher.
• My lack of prior involvement in Baltic/Russia disputes. I was never part of the Digwuren case. I have a relatively clean block log. I am engaged in extensive content creation and other Wiki work, and I am willing to voluntarily restrict my editing.

Longer version - Why the sanction should be reconsidered - statement by Radeksz

Sanction unduly harsh and purely punitive

• I made three (3) edits spread out over the course of ten (10) days. At no point did I violate 3RR, 2RR, or even 1RR. In fact I was essentially following 1RR/Week already. Describing this as an instance of "edit warring" is a very loose definition of that concept and I've never seen the term defined so weakly before.

• The punishment is extremely harsh for what is essentially a minor infraction (failure to utilize talk adequately). Please note that this is not a case of "wiki-lawyering" or "fence hugging" - I did not make 4 reverts in 25 hrs or something similar. I did not even see the fence from where I was standing. I doubt that if this had been brought to it would have gotten even a warning.

• I admit that I should have used the talk page when making my edits. However I did use edit summaries and at the time I believed that due to the sparsity of my edits and lack of involvement anything more than edit summaries was not necessary. Still, I recognize that this is something I should have been more careful about and promise to be more conscientious about it in the future.

• In general it is assumed on Wiki that purely punitive sanctions should be used only in extreme cases of repeat offenses. In fact Thatcher has stated that this is "not intended to be punishment" . However, since I am not engaged in any edit wars at the moment (nor at the time of the sanction), I am not violating BLP, I am not being incivil or making personal attacks, I am not inserting copy vio text into the Misplaced Pages and am otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, following all the relevant Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, it's hard to see this restriction as anything but punishment. An extremely harsh punishment for a minor offense - if making three reverts with edit summaries within ten days is even an offense.

Improper procedure

• Per , prior to sanctions being issued the editor should be given a warning with a link to the the case and usually a proper note is made on their talk page. I've never received any warning from Thatcher nor was I notified. Furthermore, such warnings need to be logged here , but my name was added only AFTER the sanction was issued. In fact, I was the only editor restricted whose name was NOT on that list - hence I am being sanctioned under a case that doesn't even apply to me.

• In fact, Thatcher himself has recently stated that "At RFAR/Digwuren, users must be notified of the existence of the case and the possibility of further sanctions, with the notification logged, prior to imposing any sanctions." . Following this, what he should have done is to put me on "notice ... and caution" - again, assuming, that my 3 reverts justify being cautioned here.

Lack of prior involvement and others

• I have not been generally involved in articles/disputes concerning Estonia and Russia - hence, my lack of involvement in the Digwuren case. I only came to these articles after following a suspicious user around, User:Kupredu, who turned out to be a sock of a banned user Jacob Peters. I didn't quite realize what a mine field I was stepping in. I consider myself a neutral user here (note that Thatcher's request for a neutral editor is basically impossible by definition here, as he's restricted pretty much everyone, neutral or not, that edited the page)

• In general I appreciate what Thatcher is trying to do on Eastern European articles and believe he is acting in good faith. However, I don't see why I should become collateral damage in that endeavor.

• Compared to most of the other editors who received this sanction I have a pretty clean record. It seems that users like Biophys or Digwuren or Russavia do edit-war a lot, they have the block log to prove it and the history as well. I have one block from last November - it was stupidity on my part and since then I've enjoyed a quite good relationship with the user I was involved in a dispute with (User:Malik Shabazz). I very much dislike being put in the same category as ultra-disruptive users who edit-war on Baltics-Russian subjects which I rarely visit.

• I am mostly a content creating editor though I also have worked on cleaning up copy vios in various articles. I have had something like 10 DYKs in the past three months. I have extensively rewritten the article History_of_Jews_in_Poland and saved it from extensive copyright infringements (with help from a few others and admin User:Moonriddengirl). I frequently revert straight up vandalism on numerous articles and areas. This kind of restriction has a chilling effect on my editing. Combined with the stigma of the restriction I'm not sure if I want to continue contributing to this project. At the very least the severity of this restriction will severely hamper my ability to revert vandalism, carry out copy vio rewrites or even create new articles.

• Furthermore, such a restriction is a serious stain on my reputation - for example if I ever try for an admin, no one would vote for a candidate with a 1RR/Week restriction on their record (that user must've done something horrible!), while nobody would mind voting for a candidate who made 3 reverts in 10 days.

Remedy proposed by Radeksz in place of sanction

I request that

• Thatcher's sanction be removed.

I personally volunteer to

• Stay away from the Nashi (youth movement) article for half a year (I have no strong interest in the article anyway).
• Only participate on talk in articles listed by Shell Kinney at .
• Observe 1RR/Week (for 6 months, or longer if need be) on all Estonia-Russia articles and make sure to discuss all edits (except reverting obvious vandalisms) on talk first.

Additionally

• Thatcher raised the lack of participation in dispute resolution, such as 3O or RfC. Honestly, my own experience with 3O hasn't been all that positive - not that it went against me but rather, it was the lack or insufficient response. As a result I would very much like to do some community service on 3O, add my name to the list of participating editors and provide help in resolving other disputes (of course, ones not related to Eastern Europe). This will also allow me to become a better editor myself. Yes, this isn't really a punishment or a restriction, which is why I am listing it separately.
• While I've been a Wiki editor for more than 4 years for majority of that time I've mostly edited articles on Economics where the level of controversy and dispute is FAR lower (and where people are a lot more forgiving of each other). Consequently, editing Eastern European articles is a lot tougher and there are many "grey areas". To figure out how to properly conduct myself better here I would welcome an opportunity at a mentorship. If Thatcher himself has the time and the willingness I would like to work with him. If not, then perhaps another admin can make themselves available.

Response to Deacon of Pndapetzim

The discussion you link to is NOT "evidence" of bad behavior on my part. Rather it is a perfect example of an instance where a case was filed against Dr.Dan for creating battlegrounds, which you then tried to hijack by besmirching my good name until and up to Sandstein telling you "Procedural note: This enforcement request is concerned solely with the edits of Dr. Dan. Issues relating to any other user should be discussed in their proper place per WP:DR; such comments may be removed without notice from this thread.". It didn't work then and it shouldn't work now. The only legit piece of criticism in that thread is the one block I've gotten for the dispute with Malik, and I believe I've already addressed that.radek (talk) 10:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Deacon I find your moving around of the various comments disruptive - it's now hard to tell whom is replying to whom. As for your latest completely spurious accusations (part of problem here is that making baseless accusations, as Deacon is doing, is FREE so every time something comes up Deacon shows up and dregs up the same accusations and diffs that he's been told not to waste people's time with before) - I'll just point to what Nakon said here: "my apologies, the previous block was placed in error" when he accidentally blocked me. So you're turning an admin's mistake into some grievous transgression on my part.

To avoid yet another case being hijacked by Deacon I am not going to respond to any more of these - unless another admin makes a request that I do so. Please let's stick with the issue at hand - whether or not this was an extreme sanction for a minor infraction that was not logged or preceded by a warning .radek (talk) 15:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Thatcher

Yes, I stumbled into an edit war and made three reverts over the course of ten days (not a week). After my first edit I did not bother to check the history of the relevant article - precisely because my edits were so few - and I did not realize the full scale of the edit warring that was going on. This was my fault for not being careful enough. But I think this is an oversight that is very understandable. If you're going to make three edits in ten days, how careful are you going to be about making sure you avoid any potential charges of 'edit warring'? With just those three edits, which follow 1RR/Week, are you going to write a lengthy description of every single edit on the talk page? Or will you, understandably, believe that a simple edit summary is sufficient?

As to the matter of the warning: Yes, I was, of course, aware of the Diguwren case. But as you yourself state here At RFAR/Digwuren, users must be notified of the existence of the case and the possibility of further sanctions, with the notification logged, prior to imposing any sanctions.. To emphasize users must be notified...the notification logged, prior to imposing any sanctions. If at some point between June 11 and June 21 you'd have even said something like "I see that you've made a revert to the page "Nashi". Please try to refrain from making further edits without talk discussion as there is a major edit war going on at the moment" I would have totally desisted from further (uh, from the further TWO edits) edits and probably initiated a talk discussion. But no such warning, or log was made. This was all POST FACTUM, where you issued a sanction to EVERYONE who edited the article, whether they made 3 edits in ten days, or 12 edits in two days. How can you ask for 'neutral editors' when you automatically ban everyone who edits an article? Seriously, if I had any inkling that my edits were problematic I would have done things very much differently. But since I only made three edits in ten days I didn't think myself that that was the case. And you didn't give me any indication that the situation was different.radek (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

And to reply to Thatcher's contention that I am a a no stranger to controversy I would only request that admins follow the links on that page and actually read them. The first one is a case against ANOTHER user who violated 3RR but whom the admins decided to be lenient to (apparently making 4 reverts in 24 hrs is less of an offense than 3 edits in ten days). The second case is the spurious report that ended up in admins telling Deacon and MK to "quite wasting everyone's time". The third is another spurious report about supposed BLP violations - of course the actual text was backed up by reliable sources - and once again, the filing editor was told not to waste people's time. The fourth is once again another user, Lokyz, who violated 3RR and somehow I am being blamed for the fact that another editor is being disruptive. The fifth on the list is me getting a page protected against repeated vandalism by an anon ip - how in the hell is this supposed to be strike against me??? The sixth is that one block which involved Malik Shabazz and which I already addressed (and note that it was filed by an editor who got a 1 year ban). I'll stop here. Yes, there is "controversy". This is, after all, Eastern European articles, where certain editors "hunt" for others by filing no-merit cases on them. But just because other editors try to drag your name in the mud - mostly and ironically, by bringing up the fact that OTHERS were being disruptive - does not mean that I was being disruptive. If Thatcher could articulate what exactly in that record makes ME look bad, rather than the other editors who're filing specious, waste-everyone's-time cases, it'd be much appreciated.radek (talk) 23:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Sandstein

Sandstein, I understand your concerns. BUT;

• The usual procedure in all these cases is that when a user causes (real) trouble a case is filed here, then if it is found to have merit, the user is warned and the warning logged, with the following text on their talk page:

"

File:Yellow warning.png

Notice: Under the terms of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren, any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. Should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he or she may be blocked for up to a week for each violation, and up to a month for each violation after the fifth. This restriction is effective on any editor following notice placed on his or her talk page. This notice is now given to you, and future violations of the provisions of this warning are subject to blocking.

Note: This notice is not effective unless given by an administrator and logged here."

Then if the user continues causing (real) trouble sanctions and restrictions follow. I was never given such a warning (probably because unlike almost everyone else who got the sanction I don't cause trouble) nor was the warning logged - "not effective unless given by an administrator and logged". I would be somewhat sympathetic to Thatcher's argument that such warning was not necessary in my case because I was clearly aware of the case if I had done something extreme, like violated 3RR or been uncivil or made personal attacks. But I didn't, I followed 1RR/Week in my edits and hence had no idea that what I was doing was in any way wrong. A short notice at the time would've been sufficient to make me realize that. I don't understand why users who have behaved much much worse than I have, were first given a warning (sometimes a few) and only after they failed to change their behavior were sanctioned. Whereas in my case, a minor infraction lead to a short-circuiting of the whole process (that was working quiet well) and an immediate restriction. Even Thatcher acknowledge that that was the proper way to proceed in the case above - why not in my case?

• Second, I understand the need "to allow for an effective enforcement of the arbitration case" and hence "this discretion should not be second-guessed by other administrators unless there is a compelling need to do so". Actually the Digwuren case states that "Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue" - so while admins need to familiarize themselves with the details of my appeal, discuss it here and try to form consensus, there is nothing in the text about "compelling need" - what exactly would constitute that anyway?

• This case IS exceptional, as I think I've successfully argued above and below - no warning, no log, harsh punishment (when it's not supposed to be punitive) for a minor infraction for an editor that you yourself state is "one of the most cooperatively-minded editors among the "Eastern Europe regulars". I understand the need to balance effective enforcement with the right to appeal. But the argument that my appeal should be rejected because it might harm the ability to enforce the cases in the future (and honestly, I thought you guys were doing a good job before) can be applied to almost ANY appeal. And that would make the right of appeal in the Digwuren case a USELESS DEAD LETTER. Why even have the right to appeal when the appeals are going to be simply rejected on this basis?radek (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Kirill

Thank you for saying concisely what I've been trying to get across here. I think the voluntary editing limits I propose above in lieu of the sanction demonstrate my willingness to "voluntarily step away from the topic area". I would have been happy to have done so much earlier, if a proper warning that there was something wrong with my editing had been given.radek (talk) 11:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Thatcher

My rationale is here, and specifically here. In brief, Radek was the 3rd, 11th and 22nd revert of an edit war that lasted a week and spanned 25 reverts without one single post to the talk page. I have been canvassed off-wiki with the concern that Radek is a good admin candidate but won't pass RFA with a revert limit on his record. In my opinion, a good admin candidate would have realized by the 11th revert, and certainly by the 22nd revert, that approach to the dispute wasn't working and that something else needed to be tried.

As far as I know, Radek was never officially warned "your behavior is bad, you could be sanctioned under the terms of this arbcom case." However, he was clearly aware of the case because he has commented extensively on Diqwuren enforcement requests in April May and June . So it depends on what you think the purpose of "notice" is. Is putting someone "on notice" a way to avoid catching good faith editors who are new to a topic that they weren't aware was contentious, or is it a formality that must be obeyed even when someone is clearly no stranger to the controversy. Thatcher 21:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Comment by Durova

It appears that if Radeksz's statement is accurate, then there is solid basis for appeal. Having read Thatcher's comments, there's no denying that the broader topic has been very difficult, yet it also appears that Radeksz had acted in this context with the reasonable belief that three edits over ten days would be safely within policy. If that is a problem then 1RR would not prevent it from recurring.

In the long run it's better to stabilize difficult topics by giving editors incentive to reform. There's a danger of defeatism setting in, and sometimes within mentoring situations I've held long conversations with editors who were saying something like "They're going to come up with excuses to block me no matter what, so I might as well do what I want if that's going to happen anyway." That's not a healthy mindset in one individual, and it's worse when groups of people share it. Warning and dialog are always good ideas if an administrator contemplates an innovative or borderline definition of sanctionable behavior. Durova 20:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Loosmark

The punishement seems to be harsh for what was a relatively minor offense. (3 edits in 10 days, i see worse edit warring happening every day i'm on wikipedia coupled with incivility and repeated offenses to boot). Given that Radeksz was not involved in disruptive editing elsewhere and he understands and regrets what he did wrong I think some restriction on only the Nashi article would be better. Loosmark (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Response to Deacon of Pndapetzim

Here are some diffs on how that "evidence" that Deacon brings up ended up with comments from truly uninvolved admins (all comments directed at Deacon and MK):

"M.K. and Deacon may both wish to find hobbies that do not include interacting with Piotrus; it wouldn't be amiss for the Committee to make a ruling to that affect."

"This should be closed as a dup of AE and whoever brought this here admonished for wasting everyones time."

"I'm going to be blunt here: what I see is a 3RR report that was closed uncontroversially and properly (and which nobody contests on its face, for that matter), and a thread on AE that attempts to rely on a tenuous possible conflict of interest to invoke sanctions according to a particularily imaginative reading of a remedy which was swiftly (and correctly) closed as unactionable. It is impossible, in this context, to see this request as little more than forum shopping; and an attempt to misuse the committee into a bludgeon in a vendetta."

and two more radek (talk) 10:54, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Deacon of Pndapetzim if you have serious proofs open a case otherwise please stop calling people "long-term edit-warring POV buddies". It's highly defamatory and inappropriate. Loosmark (talk) 11:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Offliner

From what I've seen, Radeksz does indeed edit war a lot. One only has to take a look at his contributions to Johan Bäckman or Historical Truth Commission (where he broke 3RR, but self-reverted his last when requested). Therefore, I think 1RR is a good idea. His edit summary usage is also telling:

• 91.152.84.165: all books of a professor cannot be highly controversial, but some
• Radeksz: sure they can Undid revision 295945455 by 91.152.84.165 (talk))

I'd like to pose the following question to Radeksz: if you were allowed to revert more than once in a week (which is what you are requesting), how would that enhance your ability to contribute positively to Misplaced Pages? Offliner (talk) 23:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, the edits here are spread out over a whole month and involve a legitimate dispute - the edit summaries are detailed and ask for reliable sources (which, btw, were never provided). This is a typical example of Offliner labeling as "edit warring" anytime anyone makes edits he disagrees with - as has been noted on Thatcher's talk page previously . And I believe the answer to Offliner's question has already been provided above.radek (talk) 23:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Martintg

I essentially endorse Radeksz appeal, and would extend it to Colchicum too. In my long experience of the Baltic conflict zone there have been many occasions when outside editors such as Radeksz and Colchicum pass by to make some edit, and I feel sorry for them that they got caught in the crossfire. I think Thatcher's heavy 1RR sanction against them, if left standing, would have a chilling effect on any third party wanting to contribute to Baltic topics lest they get collaterally sanctioned.

As a background that led to this 1RR sanction against them, after Jehochman mentioned on this AE page that Shell Kinney was reviewing edits in the Baltic/Russian topic area, Thatcher jumped in and imposed some 1RR sanctions before Shell could complete her review, upsetting her in the process. Thatcher's initial sanctions resulted in only a warning for myself, but after representations on his talk by my content opponents UsernamePassport and Offliner , my warning was upgraded to a 1RR restriction. After I questioned Thatcher as to why Russavia wasn't given a similar upgrade when I pointed that my behaviour was no worse than Russavia's, Thatcher applied additional 1RR sanctions against Radeksz and Colchicum (who were not subject to Shell's exhaustive review) on the basis of a single article Nashi (youth movement). Thatcher's precipitous action, first stepping on Shell's toes to apply initial sanctions, then to impose additional sanctions upon people not in Shell's original review, has resulted in unwarranted collateral damage that is unnecessarily punitive on editors not known for disruptive edit warring. --Martintg (talk) 23:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

• Awareness of a particular case is not the same as a warning related to specific behaviour. The remedy states "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines". It would be pretty unreasonable to expect someone to think that doing three reverts in 10 days would elicit a 1RR restriction, regardless of them being aware of the various Arbcom cases, hence the need for a warning that such continued behaviour will result in a sanction. Where was the counseling on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing? --Martintg (talk) 21:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Jacurek

I fully endorse Radeksz appeal. He is a very valuable editor who contributed huge amount of excellent material into this project. Sanctioning him the same way as other editors who clearly were very problematic is unjust, to say the least.--Jacurek (talk) 01:28, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Biophys

There are three problems in these sanctions. First problem. According to Arbcom, "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict ... if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages...". That means a warning logged in the case, exactly as Thatcher said . After looking at this Arbcom decision, I honestly believed that I am only a subject to an official EE warning if my behavior was problematic, and Radek probably thought the same. Once receiving the proper warning, one could stop editing in this area or change his editing habits. However, the sanctions and the official warnings were issued at the same time, without giving users a possibility to improve, which goes against the letter and the spirit of discretionary sanctions. Second problem. The 1RR restriction was issued for article "Nashi", although some of the editors (including me and Radek) actually followed 1RR restriction while editing this article. Does it mean that anyone in general can be sanctioned for edit warring even if he follows 1RR rule? I am not quite sure. Third problem. Thatcher used an argument about the "tag-teaming". But this is a controversial concept, and it has been de facto rejected by ArbCom during last EE case, although many users tried to bring it there. Indeed, it is very common that several users revert someone else who fight against consensus. Does it mean tag-teaming?Biophys (talk) 02:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Piotrus

I'd be willing to act as an admin mentor of Radek, I agree with his argumentation - it does seem to me like he was an accidental victim of a major wiki clean up operation :) PS. I think it is important to note that neutral editors like Durova, and even some of his less grudge holding content opponents like Malik, support lifting the restriction. PPS. I find Deacon's comment "Piotrus and Radek are long-term edit-warring POV buddies" to violate AGF and NPA, and I hope that it is refactored or commented upon by the closing admin. Regarding Deacon's "evidence" (from May), Radek never got close to 3RR on that page, used the talk page () and the fact that he was reverting a disruptive editor, now permbanned, does matter. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Deacon of Pndapetzim

Radek is no saint, and has a long history of edit-warring. Evidence of this will be found at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement/Archive38#Dr._Dan. Whether he should get sanctioned on the basis of most recent activity I don't know. Thatcher has made that judgment after extensive evaluation, and commentators should give that more weight than the block campaigning from Radek's allies in this thread. Also, I can't understand why Piotrus would try to present himself as "uninvolved" here. (struck as Piotrus has now agree not to place his comment in the uninvolved admin section again) Piotrus and Radek are long-term edit-warring POV buddies. See same thread for details of Piotrus and Radek's long relationship (in particular posts from Sciurinae and my quotes from Sciurinae's ArbCom amendment evidence). Besides that, Jehochman and Kirill Lokshin have already declared him involved. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

An example of recent revert warring I've found is at Tsarist autocracy, acting with Piotrus as a team. He only made one comment on the talk page after having reverted four times. In six reverts, Radeksz reverted not only DonaldDuck but also admin Altenmann twice. The revert war also paints an extremely poor image of Piotrus (and it doesn't matter that DonaldDuck got indefinitely blocked).

And Rad's latest block didn't need to be undone, either. Biophys and Offliner were in a revert war and an admin made a general warning to all editors that he would "be blocking anyone attempting to continue the edit war, regardless of the 3RR rule" (). Half an hour later Radeksz came, ignored the discussion page again and reverted (). Radeksz then claimed he just "edited" the page and that it was not correct to block people for one edit without prior history in the edit war and got that unblock request accepted.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:54, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Malik Shabazz

I just wanted to confirm what Radeksz wrote above. He and I were involved in a dispute last fall that led to his only block. Since then, we have repaired our relationship. He seems level-headed and he hasn't engaged in edit warring on any of the articles we both edit. — ] (talk · contribs) 04:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Russavia

Above Martintg mentions that sanctions should not apply to Colchicum. If this is to be looked at, I would ask admins to look at Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park), in which it is clear that that user has engaged in edit warring. As it turns out egregious original research and violations of WP:V had occurred on that article, with the placement of an epitaph for the monument. --Russavia 00:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Darwinek

I support Radeksz appeal. This user edit warred a lot in the past but his statement sounds fair and, in my opinion, leaves both sides (user and community) satisfied, as it can work as some sort of checks and balances. - Darwinek (talk) 19:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved administrators

Thatcher, can you refute this? Is there a diff of a warning? Jehochman 21:50, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I have also asked Thatcher to comment and believe we should wait with further review until he has done so. To everybody else, please stick to the format now used above (everyone edits only their own subsections) and limit your comments to what is strictly necessary to address this appeal, especially if you are involved in Eastern Europe-related disputes.  Sandstein  17:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

After reading Thatcher's comments, I would decline this appeal, even though my impression from past interactions is that Radeksz is one of the most cooperatively-minded editors among the "Eastern Europe regulars" on this board. While I would probably not have imposed this sanction, it is well within the discretion granted by the Arbitration Committee to uninvolved administrators in this case. The evidence shows that Radeksz was indeed one of several participants in an edit war, which under the relevant remedy allows for sanctions at the discretion of an uninvolved administrator. In order to allow for an effective enforcement of the arbitration case, this discretion should not be second-guessed by other administrators unless there is a compelling need to do so. With respect to the matter of prior notification, I agree with Thatcher that Radeksz's prior involvement in arbitration enforcement request discussions obviates a need for a warning in this case. Finally, administrators are not required to take into consideration what effect, if any, sanctions might have on a request for adminship, nor should they.  Sandstein  05:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Without commenting on the sanction imposed itself—placing a restriction on reverts is, indeed, well within the discretion of an administrator acting under this remedy—I will note that the requirement for a formal warning is not meant only (or even primarily) as a way of informing editors of the existence of the remedy, but rather as an opportunity for editors to voluntarily step away from the topic area rather than facing actual sanctions. I understand that few people enjoy paperwork, but I don't think the requirements we have imposed for using discretionary sanctions are particularly onerous, or unsuitable to be followed as written. It is unfortunate, I think, if administrators are imposing these sanctions in ways which are contrary to our instructions; such actions may be slightly more expedient in the short term, but they tend to undermine the overall effectiveness of devolved arbitration enforcement.

(Is there some particular section that arbitrators are supposed to use when they comment on these? If so, anyone should feel free to move my comments to the appropriate place.) Kirill  02:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Kirill, do I understand correctly that you believe that the formal warning provided for in the remedy must have occurred not just once for every editor (for the purpose of informing them of the case), but against every specific misconduct for which sanctions are being considered? If so, I find this position (which is certainly defensible, textually, but very cumbersome in practice) surprising in light of your previous comment to RfAr whose intent appeared to be to encourage (after a fashion) administrators to be less reticent in applying sanctions. In any case, your comment indicates that the remedy is ambiguous in this respect. Maybe it would be best if you were to seize the Committee of this appeal. Its decision should clarify this matter by providing the necessary guidance to administrators about how and when to issue warnings before applying sanctions. Or we could submit a request for clarification instead.  Sandstein  12:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I actually meant a single warning, not one for each instance of misconduct (although I can see how the text could be interpreted to require multiple warnings); the intent is to explicitly inform the editor that they are being actively considered for sanctions, not necessarily to enumerate each sanction that they might face.

In any case, it may be best if you were to submit a clarification request; it may be that I'm interpreting the wording differently from the majority of the Committee. Kirill  13:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Done, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions.  Sandstein  13:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Results concerning the appeal

• At rough count the discussion of this 1RR restriction has taken up 12,700 words on-wiki and in my e-mail, over a revert war about a single two-word category. No one has managed to make a coherent explanation as to how Misplaced Pages will be better if Radek and the other editors are allowed to revert each other more than once a week, nor have I noticed a clear argument as to how Radek and the others will be better editors if they have the ability to revert more than once per week. But, rules are apparently rules, and participating in multiple Enforcement complaints about other editors is apparently insufficient notice that one's own editing might also be suspect. And, it is clear to me that Misplaced Pages will be a better place if I close this discussion down so that the people who have devoted such time and effort to those 12,700 words of argument can go off and edit articles instead. I'm sure this experience has taught everyone a lesson, and Radek and the others who apparently had no idea that edit warring is bad have now been placed on notice. So, the previous Enforcement decision is vacated with respect to the editors who had not previously been formally notified of the case, to wit: Colchicum (talk · contribs), Biophys (talk · contribs), Offliner (talk · contribs), PasswordUsername (talk · contribs), Martintg (talk · contribs) and Radeksz (talk · contribs). Be happy, do good works, and keep in touch. Thatcher 20:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Prem Rawat 3

All Rawat articles have been placed under an editing restriction:

3.1) The Prem Rawat article and all related articles are subject to an editing restriction for one year. No user may revert any given changes to a subject article more than once within a seven day period, except for undisputable vandalism and BLP violations. Furthermore, if a user makes any changes to a subject article, and those changes are reverted, they may not repeat the change again within a seven day period.

Please check if

• Equalwhom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Maelefique (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

have violated the restriction in the sequence of edits given below. Thanks.

• 21:28, 1 July 2009 Equalwhom, a new account whose only four edits have been to Prem Rawat, moves a passage referring to Rawat's movement as a "sect" and "cult" from the lede to the body of the article.
• 06:04, 2 July 2009 Maelefique moves the passage back into the lede again, edit summary: (Undid revision 299768149 by Equalwhom (talk) Undiscussed Change. Please use talk pages before making significant changes).
• 15:34, 3 July 2009 An IP moves the passage back into the body of the article.
• 16:05, 3 July 2009 Maelefique moves the passage back into the lede again, edit summary: (Undid revision 300064382 by 190.246.25.14 (talk) Vandalism. Undiscussed change, please use talk pages first.)
• 23:08, 3 July 2009 Equalwhom moves the passage to the body of the article again, edit summary: (There is no agreement. Not Vandalism either.) (This last edit has since been reverted by another editor.)

JN466 23:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

• Response I have blocked Equalwhom as per this enforcement guideline. I have not blocked the IP as he has not edited this page before (unless he is the same account as Equalwhom which is possible) and has not been warned on his account. I have not blocked Maelefique at this time because they only returned the article back to its original condition. If other administrators disagree with this result please act as necessary.--VS 07:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• Upon further review I have found when looking through Maelefique's talk page that they were also made aware (in a much earlier discussion) as to the editing restrictions concerning Prem Rawat. In the case of Maelefique I do not immediately see a single purpose account as I do for Equalwhom. I have as a result imposed a much shorter block on Maelefique but for the same reasons as detailed for Equalwhom.--VS 08:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Really. Over 500 edits and less than 5 are unrelated to Prem Rawat articles or editors.Momento (talk) 09:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The IP 190.246.25.14 (talk · contribs) may have violated the same editing restriction on two articles. He restored two reverted edits within a 24 hours.

• Divine Light Mission
• 18:01, July 2, 2009
• 11:57, July 3, 2009
• Techniques of Knowledge
• 18:10, July 2, 2009
• 11:52, July 3, 2009

But I'll admit that I find the remedy to be unclear.   Will Beback  talk  07:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

These are not very substantial edits, but I agree that the IP has violated the remedy by reintroducing reverted material within 7 days. They may not have been aware of the remedy; they are now: . JN466 09:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, one of those edits included a significant change, by deleting "to Rawat" from text about aspirants needing to "live a life of devotion to Rawat", which is a sourced assertion and the subject of controversy. Including that change among non-controversial edits may or may not have been a way of distracting attention from it. Regardless, it's an inappropriate deletion of sourced material on a significant issue.   Will Beback  talk  19:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I have rv yet another identical removal by new editing IP 166.205.4.137 ,to return the article back to its original condition after reading this thread and noting this action to be acceptable by VS above. --Savlonn (talk) 07:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• For clarity Savlonn - my acceptance of reversion of edits is only applicable if it meets the guideline of the Arbcom hearing which states No user may revert any given changes to a subject article more than once within a seven day period, except for undisputable vandalism and BLP violations. Furthermore, if a user makes any changes to a subject article, and those changes are reverted, they may not repeat the change again within a seven day period. You should also note that as a result of my further consideration of that decision I have also blocked Maelefique because he made more than one such reversion in the allotted time period.--VS 09:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

ok - I only made one revert based on your statement above that "they only returned the article back to its original condition." However, given your last statement, I have self-reverted my change, now leaving the article not in its original condition. In future, I will request uninvolved editors to revert, even if undiscussed significant change. --Savlonn (talk) 10:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments;

Here is a more complete summary of relevant background:

1. 19:18, 30 June 2009 WillBeback introduces the material about the "sect" and "cult" labels in the lede, edit summary: (added, per talk). Supporters on the talk page included Maelefique and Savlonn. Note that this edit was brought up by the currently topic-banned editor Momento (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) in a separate AE thread higher up on this page.
2. 21:28, 1 July 2009 Equalwhom, a new account whose only four edits have been to Prem Rawat, moves a passage referring to Rawat's movement as a "sect" and "cult" from the lede to the body of the article.
3. 06:04, 2 July 2009 Maelefique moves the passage back into the lede again, edit summary: (Undid revision 299768149 by Equalwhom (talk) Undiscussed Change. Please use talk pages before making significant changes).
4. 15:34, 3 July 2009 An IP moves the passage back into the body of the article.
5. 16:05, 3 July 2009 Maelefique moves the passage back into the lede again, edit summary: (Undid revision 300064382 by 190.246.25.14 (talk) Vandalism. Undiscussed change, please use talk pages first.)
6. 23:08, 3 July 2009 Equalwhom moves the passage to the body of the article again, edit summary: (There is no agreement. Not Vandalism either.)
7. 23:31, 3 July 2009 user:Steve Crossin, a mediator for this topic area last year, undoes Equalwhom's revert, edit summary: ((Undid revision 300136014 by Equalwhom) Please pursue the Bold, revert, discuss cycle, rather than revert a revert. Will open and encourage discussion on talk page.) Steve did start a discussion thread on the talk page: Talk:Prem_Rawat#Discussion_of_edit
8. 00:38, 4 July 2009 user:94.194.214.37 reverts, edit summary (Undid revision 300139497 by Steve Crossin (talk) it seems a good balance to revert to this edit. I read the talk pages a).
9. 01:01, 4 July 2009 user:94.194.214.37 self-reverts, edit summary (Undid revision 300149020 by 94.194.214.37 (talk) sorry mistake).
10. 04:43, 4 July 2009 user:166.205.4.137 moves the material out of the lede and into the body of the article again.
11. 07:40, 4 July 2009 user:Savlonn moves the material back into the lede, edit summary (Undid revision 300177620 by 166.205.4.137 (talk) r v - see AE discussion.)

Of the IPs and accounts involved, the following appear to be single-purpose accounts focused on articles about Rawat, his organisations (Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital, the Prem Rawat Foundation etc.) and family (Hans Ji Maharaj), and the talk pages of related WP processes and editors:

• Equalwhom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Maelefique (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ()
• 166.205.4.137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 190.246.25.14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The arbitrators included the following among their remedies: 4) The parties and other interested editors are encouraged to resume or restart mediation in relation to Prem Rawat and related articles. Passed 13 to 0, 02:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC) JN466 09:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)