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1. His past abuse of efforts to get himself unbanned (using a sock to vote in support of his own unbanning)
2. He has not come forward with a complete list of his socks
3. Nobody has yet volunteered to be his mentor.
4. No evidence that he ever did the proposed work at the Simple English Misplaced Pages that was mentioned above by User:Aunt Entropy.His contributions are at this link.

EdJohnston (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Postscript by EdJ - Thanks to all for the comments and updates. He *does* appear to meet the terms of Durova's WP:Standard offer. I did take a look at his contributions at Simple English Misplaced Pages, about forty edits in August and October 2008. It's not a terrible record, but there's not much evidence there of judgment or maturity. (Check some of the edit summaries). Since his past record here was so terrible, I've not felt moved to lift my Oppose vote, though I admit the grounds aren't as strong as before. Sarah originally proposed that he be unbanned subject to mentoring, but I observe that no mentor has yet been found. EdJohnston (talk) 17:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Could you clarify what socking has occurred within the past six months? I haven't been able to see any less than a year old. Looie496 (talk) 17:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your review, Ed. Flameviper has left a response for you in the section below and I would just add that I'm unsure why Durova believes that he hasn't sat out six months. I'm personally not aware of any evidence that suggests he isn't telling the truth when he says he hasn't edited for over a year and I spent a few hours reviewing his case and compiling information for the above statement. I would very much welcome seeing any such evidence, though, if Durova or anyone else has any. Also note that Jpgordon, the checkuser who identified and revealed that Flameviper was using a sock during the June 2007 unban discussion has endorsed unblocking. Thank you for reviewing the appeal; I do appreciate you taking the time. Sarah 08:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban WP works on the spirit that everyone makes mistakes and that most of them can be forgiven. We have admins afaik who were once indef banned from the project, came back and proved that they have indeed learned from their mistakes. We should extend the same offer to Flameviper. We have banned him in 2007, more than 2 years ago now and I for one think that people can indeed mature in 2 years. Let's unban him, under conditions (see Durova above) and if he really starts acting up again, the block button is very easy to push. There is really nothing to lose here but we might gain a matured editor who knows their way around the project. Regards SoWhy 19:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment I'm indifferent to whether or nor the editor is unbanned, but if he is unbanned, shouldn't he use Flameviper (talk · contribs) as the new main account instead of Ziggy Sawdust (talk · contribs)? I ask this because it appears the Ziggy account was a sock.--Rockfang (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• Not necessarily. The community could unban him and restrict him to the Ziggy account if it wishes, or it could unban him and restrict him to the Flameviper account. The community can basically do anything it wants (within law and reason, of course). After all, policy is just a description of what has generally happened in the past, not what we have to do in the future. Plus WP:IAR and all that jazz. I'm aware of a couple of cases in the past where we have unbanned people and allowed them to use what had been a sockpuppet because they didn't want to edit under their original username for whatever reason. Sarah 09:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• (Non-admin) question S/he mentions a couple of things as not being their motives (vandalism and personal attacks). I'd like to see them address the other side of the coin: Why and what do you want to contribute if reinstated? - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 20:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• I'm of the same mind as Ironholds. I'm not sure why aging from 12 to 15 and 7 months (which, btw, I have no idea how he did in two years) indicates a marked improvement in maturity, especially when we know how spectacularly poorly he behaved before. That said, I'm mildly inclined to support unbanning per AGF, but with the basis that any repeat of the behavior for which he was banned results in an instant re-ban with no more chances. ÷seresin 00:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, it's a tad confusing, however, he was originally indefinitely blocked on 22 June 2006, then unblocked but had problems leading up to the reblock in February 2007 and I think when he says he was 12, he's referring to the period between those two blocks. In the letter I posted above he states he was 13 when banned in 2007, which would make him 14 in 2008 and 15 in 2009. I would certainly agree that any repeated bad behaviour should result in a no-second chances reblock. Sarah 05:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban. I first ran into Flameviper on his 13th birthday, when I was asked to oversight an edit from him saying that it was his 13th birthday. We routinely oversight the ages of minors, so that was easy. I then encountered him in January of 2007, when some very gross edits were made from his account; I issued an emergency block, figuring he'd left himself logged into a public terminal or something. For whatever reason, after that, he started making himself more and more obnoxious, leading to the community block, and a string of sockpuppets. I probably blocked some of those, seeing as how that's what I do to sockpuppets. When he managed to get himself unbanned, I double-checked to make sure he hadn't been socking again, and of course he had been, so door ass bang. A heck of a lot can happen between the ages of 12 and 16. Some people actually develop things like a sense of what is acceptable behavior. (Some never do.) Has Flameviper done so? I'm willing to think he might have, at least enough for us to give him rope and see if he chooses to hang himself with it or instead help us build an encyclopedia. I think he needs to proceed as User:Flameviper, with an intact and honest history; if his return is successful, he will be a fine example of how a troublesome kid can return as a useful member of our community. If not? Minor annoyance, reban, end of story. --jpgordon 04:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support unban The shackles can always be put back on. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support unban - a good amount of time has passed and Flameviper seems to be genuinely repentant. Granted, there is no way to accurately judge someone's intent based upon text alone, but in the spirit of WP:AGF and the fact that he hasn't caused us any grief in some time make me willing to support a tentative unban at this point. That said, he should be kept on a short leash - no leeway should be given in situations that in any way mimic the previous problems that lead up to the ban, and any regression toward those behaviors should be met with a quick reinstatement thereof. Also, for what it is worth, I must echo jpgordon and Rockfang in that I would prefer to see him unblocked as his original account (Flameviper) for the sake of an honest and transparent history with the project. Shereth 17:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

  Note: I'm not completely convinced he hasn't been continuing his sockpuppetry -- if I were asked in an SPI, I'd answer "possible" -- but it's much easier to detect if he's openly editing with his main account. I do know his list of socks and the sock category is not complete, since checkusers will often just block socks of ongoing annoyances without tagging their user pages. I'd be more impressed if he'd provided us some names we hadn't tagged. But he can't prove a negative, and neither can we. --jpgordon 15:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban as a provisional measure. Increased maturity is not only likely, but to be expected, in someone of this age group. Let's give them a chance. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support unban - In the two years that have passed since FV was banned, I have confidence that he has matured, and can contribute to the encyclopedia more than he did. A lot of growing up happens between 12 and 14, and I'm willing to let him have a second chance. His statement above sounds extremely genuine, and I have faith in him this time. (X! · talk)  · @261  ·  05:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

• Question Would you be willing to edit as Flameviper for the reason I stated above?--Rockfang (talk) 21:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

• Of course he's willing to edit under the Flamviper account (and he can confirm this himself); he's just saying that it's his preference to use a different account. He's been banned for two-and-a-half years so he's not going to be stupid enough to quibble over accounts and refuse to edit as Flameviper. Please try not to get too hung up on the issue of the account. There's no policy reason I'm aware of that would prevent the community or an administrator from allowing him to use his preferred account. Even people who have been sanctioned at arbitration for socking and restricted to one account have been allowed to choose their preferred account. One example that comes to mind is the account Privatemusings which was originally a sockpuppet, see this finding, limited to one account. The important issue at hand is whether the person behind the Flameviper account should be given a second chance and if you're indifferent to him being unbanned then the matter of which account he would use doesn't matter, right. Sarah 07:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• A "second chance"? Be realistic; this would be a fourth chance. He screwed up the second chance, though he lasted five months; and he screwed up the third chance (by totally unnecessary socking with the two-sixteen account, so yeah, he's could very well be stupid enough to quibble unnecessarily). --jpgordon 17:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware it has been much more than a second chance. "Second chance" was just an expression; I didn't literally mean this was only his second requested chance. As someone who opposed his previous appeals, I'm only too well aware that it has been a lot more than that and an awful lot of disruption and bad behaviour. Sarah

• Reply to Sarah - You say: "Of course he's willing to edit under the Flamviper account...". It wasn't obvious to me, which is why I asked it. I am indeed indifferent to whether or not he is allowed to edit here or not. It just would seem kinda odd if he used a sockpuppet account as a new "main" one. Just because something isn't written down in a policy doesn't mean it can't be done.--Rockfang (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, as I said yesterday there is precedent for it so it can be done and PM is one of a number of examples of users who were blocked or banned and eventually unbanned/unblocked and allowed to use what had been a sock as their primary account. As long as he's only using one account, I don't see the problem. Flameviper has confirmed he is willing to edit under Flameviper, he just prefers the other username. Sarah 05:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion seems to be dying down -- can I suggest that some admin who hasn't contributed make a decision about whether there is consensus here? Looie496 (talk) 16:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

IMH(non-admin)O, I see consensus for unblock, but not unconditional, I do believe he requires a mentor. Would one of the admins who voted to support this young man step up and take on the job? Once a mentor is found, we can hash out the details on the unblock, but I think we need that first. Auntie E (talk) 17:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I think Sarah might be a good choice here, she seems to know all the needed details regarding this user. Regards SoWhy 19:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree he needs a mentor, but unfortunately due to other commitments I really don't think that I can take on mentorship. I'm certainly willing to assist and I would make myself available to answer any questions and give him advice and assistance, but I think he needs a mentor who is around and available more than I am. I'm happy to be a back up or assistant mentor though. :) Are there any volunteers? if not, perhaps someone from WP:ADOPT would be willing to help? Sarah 06:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As a veteran adopter, I would be more than happy to mentor/adopt Flameviper if I am chosen to take on the role. Of course, I would have to create a specialized version of my program for Flameviper, since I have never adopted a former banned user before. Cheers, → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 19:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As a latecomer to the discussion, I spotted this a few days ago and thought it would be a bad idea, given the history... comments since then have persuaded me that it's probably a mistake to hold such a young person's past against them forever. Such an eager contributor could be an asset, if things turn out well. Support here already appears nearly unanimous, but I'd like to offer my own, as well. The several experienced editors who've stepped up to offer mentorship should provide a healthy comfort zone for all involved. One question I don't think I've seen addressed in full: would we unblocking Flameviper, or Ziggy Sawdust? My own slight preference is ZS, to use a name that is recognizable while still emphasizing a new beginning, but I'm inclined to defer to the user's own preference. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Mentorship

Is everyone ok with Dylan620 (talk · contribs) as mentor? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• I am. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Originally meant to be posted on Dylan's talk page, but I edit conflicted:Speaking as an uninvolved watcher here: I am just not sure if Dylan is ready to take over a mentorship role on the project. While I see that he have adopted users in the past, this really is a much bigger deal, and I think that it would be better if a more experienced editor volunteered for this. I mean no offense towards him; I just think he need more experience before he can undertake such a task of mentoring a previously-banned user. NW (Talk) 23:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Because why? He cannot recognize if Flameviper goes disruptive and he needs to ask for a re-block at ANI? I think he is experienced enough to check a contribs list for problems. I'm more concerned about socks; but the socks were noticed and blocked before without a mentor watching for them. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 23:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Dylan's a great guy and enthusiastic, yet have concerns about whether he'd be ready to go this alone. Perhaps a joint mentorship with a second volunteer would be a good idea. Durova 23:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  You volunteering? He's been made aware of the special needs here, btw, and he knows where ANI can be found. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 23:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  Last month I resigned from all five of my mentorships. Have pulled more than my weight in that regard. Are you volunteering? Durova 23:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  That's kindof a nonsense question, Durova. I don't think he needs help - you're the one complaining he can't do the job. Since I see no problem, there is no reason for me to "fix" a non issue. Since you're the one who sees a problem, I asked you a logical question, which you have now turned around into a rather bizarre focus on your recent admission your mentorships were too much for you. I suggest that as you couldn't handle yours, you're hardly an expert on how to handle mentorships. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 23:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  Oppose. Was trying to be cooperative and productive. Rudeness is not persuasive. Durova 00:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? You oppose another editor mentoring Flameviper because you think I was rude? Is that really your rationale, Durova??? You are making no sense now, down from very little. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the opinion above (which is that Dylan would be better off with a co-mentor), adding serious doubts about the judgment of the sole advocate for this proposal. Ad hominem and straw man argumentation is no way to hold a serious discussion. Durova 00:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What advocate? I see several editors who said they would like to see a mentor. I'm not one of them. Also, your thin skin about perfectly legitimate concerns regarding your posts are not ad homs, Durova. And finally, I note you have not answered the pertinent question I asked: Are you opposing another editor mentoring Flameviper because you think I was rude? Are you thinking attacking me will distract others from the fact you have failed to address this question? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm personally willing to have a co-mentor, and I respect the fact that Durova is unwilling to be a mentor. And then, Sarah's not active enough. Hmmm; I think I know someone who can be trusted as a co-mentor. → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 00:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I respect that Durova doesnt' want to do it as well; her offered rationale is what I object to. You seem to have a lot of offers for co-mentors below, Dylan. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Switching to support with co-mentorship. Have invited Dylan (at another page) to touch bases/be a sounding board as he meets the challenges. Durova 01:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry Dylan, but we really need an experienced administrator doing this. It is important we get this right, and I think one should really be experienced at adopting and mentoring banned users before jumping on board for this particular repeat offender. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 00:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Durova resigned her mentorships for a totally different reason, including off-site harassment. She has a history of successful mentorships and her ability to handle them has never been called into question. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
• If the community has concerns; I have no problem volunteering myself as a "co-mentor" here, as I'm reasonably up to speed on this situation. This does not, however, strike me as an awfully complicated situation as far as mentored unblocks go, and I have no concerns personally about Dylan620's ability to handle it. ~ mazca 00:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to do it. I've been around (on and off) since 2005; I know how to recognize when someone is being disruptive. Plus, i'm completely uninvolved in this matter, and therefore neutral. Firestorm 00:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

If Dylan and Mazca (and Firestorm) want to do it together, I would be totally fine with that; I think it might be even better anyway, to have an administrator with full knowledge of the situation to handle things if the user becomes disruptive. NW (Talk) 00:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Dylan, even though I think this is straightforward and something you can handle, since its been suggested that you have a co-mentor, I'd be happy to help out if you need someone. Course with the number of people offering, you might just have enough to form up a wikipedia baseball team ;) Shell 00:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. I think Dylan could handle it; but more help is almost always better. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I was messaging Juliancolton (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on his talk page while this sub-thread developed two-fold (and I was asking him if he would like to be my co-mentor!). First of all, Mazca, Firestorm, and Shell, I am very happy (and to some point, flattered) that you all would like to help me. Maybe, if this is OK, we could form a team of mentors for Flameviper? Cheers, → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I fear it might get a bit imposing for Flameviper with that number of volunteers! I'd reiterate that Dylan620 is the main mentor, and have us various volunteers keeping an eye out for difficulties. ~ mazca 00:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Lol - I agree - no need to make things complicated for anyone involved. If you'd like a co-mentor, its probably best to pick one (we won't get jealous, honest) and know that if anything comes up or if you need someone available right away, you have a pool of people who're willing to support you. Shell 01:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

With less offense than physically possible intended for Firestorm and Shell, I would personally prefer if Mazca was the co-mentor. Not only is he up to speed on this, but he's also an admin, and can re-block Flameviper if he reverts to his old ways. Cheers and thanks, → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 01:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Shell is an administrator too. NW (Talk) 01:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I already knew that. I'd just prefer if Mazca helped, that's all. No offense intended, Shell. :) → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 01:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

None taken of course, having someone who's already up to speed and that you're comfortable working with is a great choice :) Shell 01:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually if you'd consider a three-way, Shell's experience is first rate. She'd be a real plus. Durova 02:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree and I'd definitely like to see Shell involved, especially given the *cough* extensive history this user has on WP. Sarah 03:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Dylan should be able to handle being the primary mentor, and I'm happy to back him up. It sounds like Shell also has much to contribute and some strong support; so it sounds like Dylan plus we two admin backups is an arrangement that works for everyone. ~ mazca 09:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) No problem, i'll bow out gracefully. I just volunteered because it looked like nobody else was going to. Good luck! Firestorm 03:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you to all the volunteers, especially to Firestorm. I was just looking at Dylan's pages as a couple of people have expressed concerns with making Dylan the mentor and I noticed on his adoption page it says he has 7 mentorees - is that right?? If so, I think he has plenty already and we should just ask Shell to do it. I also don't think it's really ideal to have a mentor who needs co-mentors. I think we just need someone who is experienced with users with difficult backgrounds and I would really like to see Shell to do it, if she is willing. I also plan to be around and help as much as I can and honestly having a team seems a tad like over-doing it and I wouldn't like Ziggy to feel intimidated by a gang of mentors. Just a thought and I will leave it up to the murderous puppy if she is going to do the close. Sarah 10:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, only two of those adoptees are active (and I'll be adding a third page later on), so I can handle one more. To Durova and Sarah above; I just feel more comfortable working with Mazca. While Mazca and I have interacted previously, this is the first time I've ever met Shell, so I feel more comfortable working with Mazca. Apologies if my English comes out crappy; I just woke up after sleeping for just less than 7 hours. Cheers, → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 11:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Support Dylan as mentor with Mazca backup. So is this settled then? Auntie E (talk) 13:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So far as I can tell - just waiting on Flameviper to ack the mentorship. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

He's accepted mentorship (see his post at User talk:Ziggy Sawdust#Unblocking) – time to close this thread with consensus for an unban? → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 10:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, please be sure to note Dylan/Mazca mentorship, I'm off to unblock (unless already done) and will close myself after doing so if no one else has. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

hi folks i'm ziggy sawdust i like to write about all sorts of cool stuff on the wikipedia internet website
this is my talk page just take it easy and have a great time ok

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I find the last sentence of this post a bit of sick joke considering the recent largescale removal of 20-30 editors contributions to that page, based on one person's idea of what civility is. Is it a community debate on the civility policy, or not? I would say not. MickMacNee (talk) 12:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that 93 people is a fair chunk of the community, considering that many aspects are decided by much small groups. Sure, it's nice to get more feedback, especially on a fundamental aspect, but already we've attracted more attention then most RfCs ever get. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

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@MacNee: Why do you keep referring to it as dissappeared when it's right there? I find your answer to your own question odd since you don't seem to have ever blocked anyone — which would seem to be due to this. Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Imho most users (like me), who are not regular contributors or admins, will agree that a section which can only be found in old revisions of the page is not "right there"! Without knowing that smething has been deleted, onyl the most curious would check old revisions of a discussion that is still going on. Who deleted this, where is the explanation, and why isn't there at least a link to that deleted stuff? Looks like a blatant attempt at manipulating the discussion to me! Gray62 (talk) 10:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cas; will chip-in furthur. Cheers, Jack Merridew 02:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I refer to it as disappeared because that's what it is. It certainly has not been courtesy blanked or archived (not that we archive Rfc sections). Just make your mind up, and decide whether you considered it a valid discussion (as you did when posted, and seem to want to do know), or you want to claim after the event that you agree with its summary yanking on principle, irrespective of how many people had taken it as meant, when Risker turned up days later and tarred all participants as de-facto violators (that ironically includes you Jack). MickMacNee (talk) 12:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

And it's accessible by any number of links or other means at this point. It rather has been courtesy blanked, not quite as I expect you mean, of course; a courtesy to Bishonen and to Daedalus. Just because I participate in a discussion does not mean that I consider it valid; I comment in ludicrous discussions rather often; this one, for example. No tar (or feathers) on my hide, Mick (seems we're back to first-usernames). Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Where are those links? I added my two eurocent to that poll recently, and was totally unaware that a whole section had been deleted! Then, could you pls explain about that "courtesy to Bishonen and to Daedalus" stuff - what do you mean, I have no idea? And it's certainly not up to you to decide if a discussion is "valid" or not. And I doubt that a member of the arbitration committee was given the rights to interfere in this way, without regard to the proper procedures. Gray62 (talk) 10:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I don't think it will matter, because policies on Misplaced Pages basically never matter. It matters how many people you have on your faction. The only policies that are close to being applied reasonably are FA/GA/FL criteria, vandalism and spam, the latter two because established editors have no reason to partake in them. As for civility, people use two different standards for their mates and their enemies. Just look up everyone's speeches YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

eg, I have seen in the past, some rv wars on major WP policies, those that affect every article, NPOV related stuff. But only 4-5 people bothered to discuss or rv war, even though it affects 100% of articles. OTOH, teh FA criteria affects maybe 1% of articles (0.1% are FAs and others are aspriing to FA) but maybe 50-100 people joined the discussion. Why? because the FA criteria is used at FAC/FAR and articles are scrutinised. As for OR policy, it doesn't matter what the policy says, heaps of people flagrantly ignore it anyway, and the only point of changing the policy is to move the boundary line and "convict" an opponent of breaking rules. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I must say, YellowMonkey, your cold-blooded cynicism is delightfully refreshing, coming from a plush yellow mammal. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm dead serious. NPOV policies are mostly irrelveant. I know of an entire ethnic group on Misplaced Pages (admins among them) who insist on using "freedom fighter" all over the place. Look everywhere and you will see a person using one interpretation of some policy for one thing and another when their opponent wants to cite a blog or whatever. If you want arbcom attention, you turn something into a big circus. Else, you won't get attention, most likely the arbitrators find the topic of dispute to be deadly boring. From when I was on arbcom there were about 5-6 arbcom cases related to a certain geographical area. The first five were about POV allegations and there were a handful of posts on the mailing list, in some cases one or none. In one case that was actually about embarrassing rioting and juicy conspiracies, there were about 50-100 .... YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

And thus the YellowMonkey turned away from such scum, and wrote little articles on cricketers and vietnamese. :) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have only made some noise to some arbitrators a few times this year. Every time, nothing happened, except until it made it to WR or Jimbo's talk page and turned into a big scandal. The first was about User:Nichalp and the second about User:Utgard Loki. I thought it was a big deal that admins weren't allowed to used socks but I guess I complained to the wrong ones: either friends or political allies of the admin or they just don't care because it doesn't do anything to their popularity rating. In theory it's good to do things quietly without drama but a lot of people tend to avoid disputes for political success YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 04:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

David, take a moment to reread what you wrote. The idea behind it may be correct, but your tact is just wrong. Seriously. Belittling another user? C'mon now, let's have an adult discussion here. YM writes articles, you write articles. I don't even write articles. Be aggressive with users that deserve it if that's the card you want to play. Keegan (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Hell in a Bucket

Hell in a Bucket (talk · contribs) seems to be on a WP:POINT run right now. First, he tagged Meridian Mall, an article with plenty of secondary sources, for A7 (diff) when it clearly didn't meet it. Then, he did the same thing to Lansing Mall, which is also far from lacking in sources (diff). He has since listed both articles at AFD with a rationale of "it's just not notable", citing a 2 1/2 year old AFD on Lansing Mall from an unsourced, stub version of the article. The fact that he has targeted two articles which I wrote in such rapid succession has me thinking that something is up. (He also AFD'd Frandor Mall, which is justified as that article is a wreck and was mis-named.) Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 17:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

the user seems to be working exclusively on nominating articles for deletion via one process or another, without paying any heed to whether the speedies meet the speedy criterions, or whether articles can be merged, or are likely to have sources. Quite a few different admins and other good editors have complained to him by now, about 2/3 of them have been good, though often using the wrong process--and, if anyone was wondering, I going by what other admins have said & the snow keeps on his afds, not primarily the ones I declined. This is an unacceptably high error rate. At the very least, the user should be asked not to use Twinkle DGG (talk) 19:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec x2) I've speedily kept both AFDs, and I'm gonna leave a note on his talk page. Agreed, with that high an error rate he should have his Twinkle yanked. Blueboy96 19:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like it would hurt. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds NSFW, too. Only problem with yanking his Twinkle is that even if you edit protect his monobook, it's in the gadgets. IIRC, short of blocking the editor you can't yank their Twinkle. (Off to scrub the "twinkle yanking" image out of my brain.) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow, people seem to be a bit trigger happy here. Isn't that what you've accused me of? Hmmmmmm makes you think doesn't it? I believe this entire thread is complete nonsense, it was opened because I didn't respond within ten minutes because I was at the local Walmart preparing for a camping trip. AFDS are for a community discussion and clearly these malls are not notable. Just because they eist does not give them notability. The American mall or greeat mall that has an amusement park now thats notable. This is just a chance to toot a local horn. I sympathize that this may seem harsh but this is just my good faith opinion, on improving the encyclopedia. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, since you asked... While I agree that it might have been nice to give you more time to respond to the most recent query, after TPH raised the mall question on your talk page, instead of answering him, you sent another mall article to AfD. So I can also understand why he might think you were ignoring him altogether. As to why others (myself included) are concerned, well, the problem of CSD tags isn't exactly new to you. User_talk:Hell_in_a_Bucket#speedy_reasons had quite a bit of information for you about what can be speedied (although ThaddeusB got notability and importance mixed up). User_talk:Hell_in_a_Bucket#Splurve_Ball had another mention of inappropriate CSD tagging. The concern is that after these two events (and possibly more under your old username -- I don't feel like looking), most editors would get a clue and read WP:CSD carefully. My good faith opinion is to take a few minutes to read WP:CSD, WP:BEFORE and WP:DEL. Mull it over a bit, then go have a blast on your camping trip and come back to Misplaced Pages with a clear head.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Comment, I'm going to have a blast camping. I am often wrong in the eyes of the community and I have no problem admitting it. I only hope that everyone understands even though in your eyes I'm wrong I am only trying to maintain a high standard of inclusion to the encyclopedia. If mine happens to be more discriminating it is only a difference of opinion and I have reviewed csd's a few times so I'll have one more go at it, you can always catch things you didn't catch before.Hell In A Bucket (talk) 23:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been trying to advise Hell in a Bucket for some time now, and we have butted heads several times. That said, I do think he is acting in good faith and he does seem to be improving. I have tried to explain to him several times that being not notable isn't a speedy deletion criteria and that being "important" isn't the same thing as being notable. He still doesn't seem to comprehend our policies fully (assuming good faith), but I do feel he has at least tried to improve. Still, it might be in his own best interest to concentrate on areas outside of deletion until he gets a better handle on our policies - and that is what I'd advise. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment To add to what User:TenPoundHammer has said,I have observed many of the AfDs Hell in a Bucket has brought up, and most fall in the two extremes, either easy deletes or easy keeps. Not much of the borderline cases which leads me to believe that he doesn't understand the notability guidelines or the process of bringing something to AfD. Also some of the CSD taggings are plain absurd, as in the case of Ellie Cole, where there was also a misplaced 3RR warning and his arguments at the AfD. Also, another series of AfDs started with Global Adjustments - three AfDs within six minutes, one of them within five minutes of the article being created and another within a minute of the article being created, clearly indicating that there was no effort to check on anything before nominating for deletion. While there's enough speediable material created out there to give a good success rate, some of them are disruptive. Until such time when he understands the processes, it's possibly best to either set a limit on his CSD tags per day and an AfD limit per week, if not an outright break from these activities for a while. -SpacemanSpiff (talk) 00:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment I've seen problems with this user a few times before. At this point, he's been around a while, but still shows little hope of clue acquisition. And this was a bit over the top. --LP 04:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  Of course, we usually grant a bit more leeway to obviously frustrated editors when it comes to their own talk page. Hopefully when he comes back from vacation he will be a bit calmer, and TPH will quit poking him with a stick. There will certainly be a lot of eyes on the situation, in any event. :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment I've also noted on HIAB's talk page that he needs to at least slow down his speedy noms and pay attention to what he's doing. Kudos for his determination to help, but I think the time has come to refocus attention to editing for a while, and slowly move back to newpage patrolling once he has a better understanding of the process. -- Norvy (talk) 02:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support Hell My initial impression was that I did not like Hell in a Bucket. Hell wrongly or too quickly nominated stuff for deletion. However, after writing to him, the matter was resolved. Therefore, my interactions with Hell is that Hell is an ok person, not a troublemaker. Everyone should work together to resolve things. User F203 (talk) 18:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Aye, my initial opinion of Hell was poor, but a bad situation involving Hell was resolved, and Hell seems to have learned from the experience, and demonstrated that they're capable of learning and moving on. I suspect Hell still has much to learn, but I equally suspect that they are more than capable of doing so. I think Hell is in the wrong here - but I also think they'll come to realise that, too. Cheers, TFOWR 18:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• If I take your comment out of context, TFOWR, it is one of the more entertaining posts I have seen made to the noticeboard. The theology might be a little confused, but then so is the content of far too many Misplaced Pages articles. ;-) llywrch (talk) 23:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• (Oops! It was all so much easier when we call just say "Hellina" instead. Note to self: use "HiaB" from now on). Plenty of times I've read other peoples' deliberately humorous comments and nearly destroyed my keyboard with coffee; this is the first time I've re-read my own comment and laughed out loud ;-) Thanks for the theological image, llywrch! Cheers, TFOWR 13:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs)

Comment: This was posted on the Incidents page and I have moved it here after I was told that the Incidents page wasn't the right place for this request.

I am proposing a topic ban for Interestedinfairness (talk · contribs) on Kosovo-related articles. Kosovo is an article and area of interest under probation by the Arbitration Committee. Not only has this user blatantly engaged in edit warring on the Kosovo page, for which he was blocked twice (block log), but he has ignored every single argument that does not support his own POV. Many users have accused him of POV pushing and he has shown complete unwillingness to respect other people's opinions.

The most recent incident, however, is just too much. After a marathon discussion in the Talk:Kosovo page, Interestedinfairness realized that there was no consensus to call Kosovo a country in the lead sentence, but changed it anyways (link), just because he "knows" this to be a fact and nothing else matters. While the dispute here is that Albanians (and those who support them) see Kosovo as a country or state and Serbs (and those who support them) see Kosovo as a province, a long standing consensus was reached to call Kosovo a disputed region or territory, since this is as true as the Alps are a mountain range and it offends no one. However, Interestedinfairness (who speaks Albanian and has the Albanian coat of arms on his userpage) was so bent on pushing his own POV that other users got sick of it as well, and this is evident on the talk page.

This user is currently blocked for the 3rd time for edit warring on the Illyrians article - same story: It's either his way, or the highway. What's worse, some 12 hours after this user was blocked, another user, Mr.Neutral (talk · contribs) (whose username, in a way, has the same message as "interested in fairness") was created and continued "defending Interestedinfairness' views" on the Kosovo talk page. He even went on to give Interestedinfairness a little barn star :P This is probably a case of sockpuppetry, as one administrator said on that talk page, so it would be a good idea to check.

If this was a one time thing, I wouldn't be reporting this. Some users just don't understand how Misplaced Pages works at first, but then adjust to the five pillars and contribute in a constructive way. This user had his chance and he did not change at all. He did promise to change, but he didn't, which just doesn't make his promises credible anymore. This report was suggested by User:BalkanFever () for Interestedinfairness' problematic behaviour (edit warring, incivility, refusal to get the point) and is supported by Athenean (), dab () and probably many more... So, I think a Kosovo-related topic ban is necessary because he (or his puppets) simply will not stop pushing his POV. --Cinéma C 18:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I've launched a sockpuppet investigation against User:Mr.Neutral here , as I am fairly certain it is a sock of User:Interestedinfairness. Experienced user, long-term disruption on both Kosovo and Illyrians, treat with severity. --Athenean (talk) 19:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Supported by me too! Because of this pointless marathon discussion about one known criminal of Albanian origin, and his constant reverts to "his" NPOV, and because of numerous disruptive editing on Kosovo: Can You Imagine? (), Serbia (), Yugoslav wars (), and much more... Tadija (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this thread should be moved to WP:AE. That is the most pertinent board for arbitration enforcement. --Athenean (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I hate to say "this isn't the right place" again, but have you tried other methods of dispute resolution such as WP:RFC and WP:WQA and WP:MEDCOM and WP:MEDCAB and things like that before jumping straight to "let's topic ban this guy". I agree that the problem needs fixing, and soon, but have other methods been tried? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This user has been active for a long time. He has been explained everything several times. He was blocked when he couldn't control himself, and he's blocked for the third time. Several users agree on a topic ban. He was given several chances, but his latest incident showed that he has learned nothing. Believe me, all other options have been exhausted. Take a look at his contributions and every talk page he has written on - it's all there. A complete unwillingness to cooperate. Any further threats will simply get him to make new promises which he'll break, just like he did the previous ones. He is here for one reason and for one reason only - to push his POV to the end. --Cinéma C 03:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, I believe that pretty much any uninvolved admin can impose discretionary sanctions related to Kosovo. In fact, User:Manjojuice topicbanned him in June if I'm right. Has anyone asked him? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, he'll also been blocked indefinitely. Suggest closing and moving on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You are blocking the wrong person. Administrator dab is the one behind the scene responsible for most of the povish pro serbian Kosovo articles. --Tibetian (talk) 16:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Please start another section if you have something against dab. There is community consensus against Interestedinfairness 'contributing', and he is already blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry. Case closed. --Cinéma C 17:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Prodego has unblocked Interestedinfairness because "he asked him to" (). I would like one of the administrators to review this act, as Interestedinfairness has been blocked indefinitely for proven sockpuppetry. --Cinéma C 01:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I will answer all your queries Cinema, and pose some of my own in due course. For now, take care -- (Interestedinfairness (talk) 10:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)).

Topic ban anew

This isn't resolved in my view. Well, as I noted above, any uninvolved admin can give him a topic ban on the subject if they do wish, under WP:ARBMAC. He's back to edit-warring at Adem Jashari it seems, (and no, just saying I disagree with the sources isn't an adequate response). I'd like a response here or otherwise, I agree with the topicban. If he commits sockpuppetry again, then it's indefinite again. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

He did commit sockpuppetry while he was blocked, through three different IPs and through the User:Tibetian account. I've opened a case here , but it has yet to be reviewed, even though it's been 15 hours. I'm really starting to wonder why the community is so tolerant of thsi individual. --Athenean (talk) 22:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, now it's a few days ago, not only 15 hours and I am wondering that they are to tolerant of you as this is not your first case you opened all in vain. --Tibetian (talk) 12:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Friend, I've always provided reasons for my edits. I have noted in several places that the sources used by some users are not acceptable according to WP:V. I feel your comment is irresponsible, User:Ricky. Please check the history of the article.

I did not revert the sources because I do not agree with them. If you check my recent edit, you will see that I used one source user:Tadija had provided (the council of foreign relations one). I also kept her main point; that the said person was considered a terrorist by Serbia at the time of the war, but also by the UK and America, but that this was quickly withdrawn.

My edit enriched the article with useful information about the manner in which Adem Jashari was killed, and the resultant effect it had in starting the Kosovo war.

Also, I should note that user:Tadija is not an native-English speaker, no offense intended, but her edits are usually poorly constructed and hammer home a specific point throughout the lead.

Calling Adem Jashari a "war criminal" when he has never been convicted (even by a Serbian court) shows the level of immaturity and POV pushing attempted by some users.

Furthermore, all the good Wikipedians can see that the animosity towards me is only based on POV issues and nothing related to Misplaced Pages policy.

Proposal to drop this case. Interestedinfairness (talk) 14:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Today's featured article

Just a note that today's FA is getting a higher level of complaints than usual due to its title. Be prepared with liberal doses of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:DISC. Stifle (talk) 13:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• We've only got eleven hours to cope with now... :) weburiedoursecretsinthegarden 13:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• Eight OTRS tickets and counting... Stifle (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • One side of me thinks the article is wonderful, keenly sourced and written, educational (I learned) and it cracks me up, too, may even be fit marketing for the project. Another side asks, shall we soon have fuck and erm, (warning, not work or family safe in any way) this one (warning, not work or family safe in any way) as FAs? I'm bringing this up only to stir some quiet thought, I've no worries about this FA: Is there a bright line? Is there a foggy one? Where does clever, funny wordplay end and middle school pranking begin? Gwen Gale (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • This isn't "clever, funny wordplay" in the first place, so that question is a loaded one that assumes a faulty premise. If there's one thing to learn from this article it is that such names aren't and weren't wordplay. They were straightforwardly descriptive. The article does say this in its introduction. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • What I meant by "wordlplay" wasn't the same as how you understood it, I'm sorry I wasn't more careful. As I said, I think the article is wonderfully written and sourced. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Agreed. When I was in college taking History of the English language, we had to write an extensive paper on lexicon and morphology based on a single source. I used the OED and wrote a few thousand words on "cuss words". Bottom line from that applies to this: the word shit exists because it evolved from the Anglo-Saxon root "scythe" which in turn goes back to Indo-European roots. "Bad words" do provide an educational opportunity. Keegan (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• I thought we complied with all sensible requests made through OTRS? Are people being sent an automated reply or something? Fuck you bitch, Misplaced Pages is NOT censored! Get that through your thick head you goddam N00B. Or something like that maybe? MickMacNee (talk) 13:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Wow. Don't you think that's too mildly worded? Political correctness like that does grow wearisome. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• The co-founder of Wikia and Chair of Wikimedia's advisory board seems to disagree.  :) weburiedoursecretsinthegarden 13:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• The OTRS emails are getting a reply like this one. Stifle (talk) 14:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• Think of the fictional children! Sceptre 14:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • And when we ran an article about a Nazi as TFA last December, it got no complaints that I'm aware of. But run an article the title of which includes a mild expletive, and boom.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Words have meaning, folks can and do get stirred up over them, funny how that is. Altogether, I think this was a clever marketing stunt. That's ok, I think it's funny, I like the article, but I'd hope FAs like this are far and few between. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • See jump the shark for more on where this kind of thing can lead, quick. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Not that I have any problem with today'
    • It's almost certainly not because of the title. This isn't the Scunthorpe problem in action. It's because of the content, which directly addresses one of the seven dirty words and its relation to some street names.

      Ironically, whatever the OTRS complaints might address, the issues on the article's and major contributor's talk pages so far have been about the reliability of one of the sources cited, the correctness of the linguistics, and the notability of a single street name. Outside of OTRS, most people are bringing up issues that are valid editorial concerns, in calm and reasoned manner. Uncle G (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• Interesting to see the immature attitude that's being taken to this controversy. It seems like everyone is acting like victims from an onslaught of the politically-correct brigade and must pull through for the good of the encyclopaedia. A 'mild expletive'? You really think the Britannica would feature articles on the subject of expletives of any kind on its homepage? I shake my head in disbelief. --78.146.235.139 (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • This is not Brittanica. MuZemike 15:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Good point. If it's worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages it's encyclopedic, and if it's encyclopedic it's FA-worthy. Not that I nurture any misapprehensions that Autofellatio will ever make it to the main page. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • I do not dispute that this article may be well-written (I admit I haven't read it in its entirety) - any article may be worthy of FA status. What I object to is painting it on a sign and shoving it in the face of anyone who cares to visit the homepage. I'm being completely sincere when I say think of the children. --78.146.235.139 (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
        • In that case monitor the children's use of the internet, it's quite simple. – ukexpat (talk) 16:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Why has someone added bullet points to all the comments here? It was totally unnecessary to refactor everyone's posts that way. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, believe me. Most "children" I run into on the Internet cause nothing but grief and trouble for others; see YouTube, 4chan, etc (BTW, I run into "children" like these all the time on YouTube). IMO, they shouldn't be allowed to be on the Internet at least until they are able to type in coherent English and are able to refrain from communicating in Internet slang, including ur gay, lmao, rofl, foad, emoticons, huge amounts of cuss words, kthxbai, omg, zomg, lack of capitalization and/or punctuation, etc (I can keep going). MuZemike 16:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

As the pejorative of the article states in it’s introduction, “….."it is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock."

It goes on… “The word "cunt" is generally regarded in English-speaking countries as unsuitable in normal public discourse and has been described as "the most heavily tabooed word of all English words.”

So it’s shocking, offensive and unsuitable in normal public use and has managed to disenfranchise thousands of academic and business users due to the Scunthorpe problem and people can defend it being stuck up on the homepage!

As a user of the word I’m not disturbed by it, but as a user of the encyclopaedia I’m disappointed in the thoughtlessness behind this being made an FA, no matter how well written. leaky_caldron (talk) 16:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

As above. I've left a note for Raul on this one; normally I don't have an issue, and just wince at some of the FA choices, but with this one I'm waiting patiently to see when the detractors start jumping up and down on us. And thanking goodness I don't have filters on my work system. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

As a one off, it's ok, because it's ok to try things in good faith, even marketing stunts, but if something like this happens again any time soon, it'll be aught but this (I'd slap the image up on this thread but it's fair use). Gwen Gale (talk) 16:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I learned more from this FA than I ever have from articles about old video games or a recurring character from a 7 episode arc of a TV series. And I certainly thinks it is healthier to have this discussion than to be preoccupied with date de-linking or the proper spelling of "yogurt". Thatcher 16:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes! I like the article a lot and learned from it. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I thought it was an interesting article (though shorter than I'd expect for an FA), and kudos to the editors who brought it there. It's the decision-making process that put it on the main page that I'm concerned about. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The way my english friend uses the word "cunt," one would think it was a comma and not an offensive pejoritive. Livewireo (talk) 18:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You should try Scotland ;-) I grew up partly in England, and moved to Scotland when I was 18 - I was shocked at how often it's possible to get "cunt" into one sentence. "Nae cunt" is a common idiom, equivalent to "no one" in regular English - think more "nae cunt's at the bar", rather than "nae cunt talks to me like that". On the whole I found England much more refined - I've heard folk respond to "cunt" with "don't f****** use language like that in front of me, you b******"...and that's more than enough bad language for me today. Time for a nice cup of tea. (I'll leave you all to ponder why I self-censored some words but not others...) Cheers, TFOWR 18:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I've found the social taboo for the word "cunt" to be limited to just the US; folk from the UK say it all the time, and I still remember getting shocked by an Aussie chick that was calling damn near everything in sight a cunt. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting! Might go a long way in helping commenting users understand each other, too. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh no, it's on the front page. So we're basically sparing kids an extra click to search for "cunt", right? Or at the very least "fuck", which will eventually lead them there. Anyone who thinks kids don't immediately search for all the words that cause gasps and giggles the moment they open up their first encyclopedia, or for that matter, get on Google, is a fool. Send all complaints to the dustbin or, better yet, some form of public mockery. --Golbez (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the problem is kids, but people who're fundamentally decent, not particularly stuck up or prudish, and nevertheless don't like to be unexpectedly presented with words like "cunt". Will nobody think of the parents? I will happily exchange swear words with the next guy, but I think this was a poor choice for our front page, and this position shouldn't be confused with being pro-censorship. As Jimbo said a while back, "It is not censorship to exercise mature and responsible editorial judgment". SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Aye. I've been arguing the toss for much of today with the "won't somebody please think of the children?"-brigade, but a few sensible complaints have emerged:

• Placement. Fair enough we reward article improvement by promoting articles to FA status, but we could handle this better. One idea I had was to replace the article "teaser text" and title with a banner explaining that "Today's FA may be considered offensive, and readers may wish to exercise caution etc etc yada yada". The banner would link to the article.
• Filters. In a perfect world corporations and schools would have sane filters, and they'd trust their employees and students. In an imperfect world large swathes of academia, at least, will have been prevented from viewing Misplaced Pages today, without students/academics typing in direct URLs.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either of these issues, but there are issues beyond "OMG! Censorship!" and "OMG! Think of the children!".

Cheers, TFOWR 19:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not up to us to decide what might be offensive, only to present encyclopedic topics in a scholarly manner, which this article does very well. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Exploding Boy here, while I am sure that the editor/s who brought the article up to FA standard had a few private laughs, the article is nonetheless presented in an encyclopedic way. As Exploding Boy said, its not up to us to try and deem what is offensive and what is not Spitfire 19:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree as well. Really, in the end its just a naughty word, no biggie. Imagine the reaction if someone ever decides to sit down and work up the Virgin Killer article to FA status. Hrmm.... Tarc (talk) 20:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. But to accomplish that, we certainly don't need to stuff them in peoples' faces right when they open the site. Look, I grew up around loggers, mechanics, truck drivers, and such; I've got a vocabulary that would probably put anyone vaguely squeamish in their graves. I don't have an issue with the word. It's the image that's my concern. Fact is: people *will* be offended (note the comments from Stifle about OTRS, note the thread on Talk:Main Page, et al), even if the word in question *is* less stigmatized outside of North America, and that needs to be something that we consider in our choices for the front page. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. This is exactly the type of argument that has a chilling effect on certain types of academic research, for example (a recent example being protests over queer theory courses at universities in the US). Exploding Boy (talk) 20:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

So we're crusading for what, exactly? The right of all encyclopedias to say "cunt" on the cover? I see potentially large reputation cost with little apparent gain, and so I am worried. I don't think this article crossed a line, whatever line there might be, but it is testing the boundaries. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

One of the more fascinating aspects of Misplaced Pages is how reading up on one topic often leads to clicking a link to another, and another, and another. So here today, we have a rather interesting article - one of the more interesting FA's I've seen in a while on the main page regardless of the name - that is going to draw people in. Obviously it will draw them in because "OMG! they said cunt! he he he he!", but many of those very same children we are trying to think about are going to end up clicking on London, England, etc, and start reading about ...tamer... history. That, of course, is a good thing. Or, in short, everyone complaining about the use of a word is missing the point. TFA is intended to draw people in. This article will do just that. Resolute 20:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a crusade? And I wasn't informed? Well smack me with a trout and call me a cunt! I doubt anyone here particularly cares about "all encyclopedias"; I certainly don't. But I can certainly imagine an article like this in a scholarly journal or the Publications of the Modern Language Association, and I can see no good reason, arguments given here, on Raul's talk page, and on the Talk:Gropecunt Lane page included, why we shouldn't publish it on our front page. Exploding Boy (talk) 21:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Can you imagine an article like this as the banner article on the front page of an MLA publication? What about Google? MSN? Britannica? I'm specifically concerned about the potential damage to our reputation from this sort of thing; you're free to consider that unimportant (I don't), or to suggest the risk is worth it for any of a number of reasons (I'm open to suggestions, but dubious), but to simply ignore the risk seems unwise. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A search for "Gropecunt" on Google News returns zero results. If that stays that way for 48 hours it's safe to assume that this hasn't spread beyond a few people who are terrified by certain groupings of letters, and that our reputation is secure. --Golbez (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Duly noted, but I do want to emphasize the concept of risk -- earthquakes are rare, even in "earthquake country", yet they still factor heavily in public decision making. My concern in this matter has much the same tenor: major media fallout is likewise rare, but can have a large impact. I don't think media coverage is necessarily a prerequisite of reputation damage, either; that just takes it to a larger scale. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• What has annoyed me about this whole debate is that a number of people who have expressed concerns with this (including me) have pointed out that it's not about keeping this kind of thing away from the kids, it's about an image issue, and yet most of the response has been claiming an attempt to censor or lay a chilling effect down or something similar. One comment asks why Americans are so puritanical about sex; it's not about sex, it's about a common vulgarity that a lot of people don't like to hear, read or disseminate, and here it is splashed onto the front page of one of the world's most trafficed web pages. I'm firmly against censorship, I'm strongly in the camp of 'sex is normal and natural and should be taught to kids responsibly,' so being lumped into a general group of 'censorship because of sex' - which, around here, renders any concerns from that particular group moot - frankly pisses me off. But, oh well. Kudos to the folks who brought the article to FA, it's very informative and well written. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • it's not about sex, it's about a common vulgarity that a lot of people don't like — No, it's not actually about that, either. It's about an encyclopaedia article that educates the reader about a street name, once considered everyday, ordinary, and clearly publishable, now eradicated. cunt wasn't featured. Gropecunt Lane was. Uncle G (talk) 12:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You know, I'm sorry I said anything. Next time I have a concern, I'll keep my mouth shut as it's obvious my point has been missed. Carry on. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we get it; you worry about the Misplaced Pages taking some sort of image hit by featuring the word "cunt" prominently on the main page, that this hinders attempts to be taken seriously here. As far as I'm concerned, those what would look upon the Misplaced Pages less favorably because of this are the types whose opinion I don't give much weight to in the first place. Tarc (talk) 16:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Question for User:Stifle - mind if I ask how many OTRS complaints have been received thus far? Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
• I've yet to see anyone explain what harm could come to a child upon reading the word "cunt" in this academic sense. Especially as they can simultaneously learn the etymology (also learn what etymology means) of that word. So can someone please explain to a father of two girls what the actual harm is when caused by this word (or any word for that matter)? --WebHamster 11:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess I must be truly out of things: I read the article, know quite well that "cunt" is an offensive word, but it never occurred to me (honest!) that this article might lead to a wave of complaints. I found it a very fascinating article, & my only criticism was that at a couple of points the article seemed to be rambling. (I guess my mind is so filthy that I am beyond salvation.) -- llywrch (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Not everyone was unhappy about the article's appearance on the main page: . (Sorry, don't know how to make direct links.) --Calton | Talk 02:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

How to make an external link? Like this -- look at the source. You were almost there. -- llywrch (talk) 05:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocking of User:Dimitri Yankovich by admin William M. Connolley

When looking into the recently discussed article Ancient Egyptian race controversy I noticed this statement:"User:Dimitri Yankovich looks like yet another sock. I've blocked him William M. Connolley (talk) 07:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)". I firstly thought this was just a somewhat lazy way of saying this user has been convicted of sockpuppetry by the usual checkuser process. But later, I looked into Misplaced Pages:RfCU and found - nothing! Now, excuse me pls, but has it become a new standard recently that admins can block editors (indef, I guess), just because they simply LOOK LIKE sockpuppets to them? I really would like an admin to look into this issue. I don't think this is the way suspicions about sockpuppets should be handled here! Gray62 (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Checkuser's just one tool -- a handy one, yes, but speaking as a checkuser I wouldn't even begin to claim every sock block has to go through me. Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Identification and handling of suspected sock puppets mentions a variety of methods; behavioral cues are often pretty reliable. At WP:SPI, checkuser requests are often declined as "unnecessary" where enough evidence can be presented to determine a user is a sockpuppet without consulting private data. If a sock is obvious enough, as often happens with our more prolific sockmasters, investigation can be a waste of time.

None of this, of course, precludes reasonable objection from users who are rightfully concerned about the possibility of wrongful blocks. Since I agree that Dimitri Yankovich's behavior seemed sockish, I've checked the account; it's a  Confirmed match for Romulus maximus (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), who is also blocked as a sockpuppet. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Thx for providing the explanation! However, since the check didn't seem to be a big deal, wouldn't it be better to make it mandatory? If only one newb happens to edit the "wrong" article at the wrong time, and becomes blocked as a possible sockpuppet, this is one block to many. Gray62 (talk) 21:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

However, there is no case "Dimitri Yankovich" at WP:SPI either. And Misplaced Pages policy explicitly says "If you think that someone is using sock puppets and wish to get other people's comments on the matter, you should create a report at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations and follow the instructions there.". It doesn't say Admins can simply block accounts because of a suspicion. The contribs of that Yankovich guy sure look suspicious, but shouldn't Connolley have followed proper procedures, which would have included proper discussion about this? Gray62 (talk) 21:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You should be aware of WP:DUCK.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

What part of "and wish to get other people's comments" suggests that its mandatory to do so? Mr.Z-man 22:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the tag in Romulus' userpage, and looking at their contribs, and reading Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Admins_vs_contributors, I assume that both accounts must be User:Muntuwandi. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Muntuwandi has created a huge number of socks already. For those with a knowledge of his editing interests, detecting these socks is not that hard. In this case I pointed out the possibility to WMC on his talk page and here on ANI prior to the block. It is only editors and administrators apparently unfamiliar with his editing patterns and abusive socking who have raised any objection. They should take a look here ]Mathsci (talk) 13:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Some sockmasters are simply easy for those who have dealt with them to recognize. This prevents harm to the encyclopedia. I strongly oppose making a sock check mandatory - this only checks one aspect, and cannot verify or clear certain types of socks - and there is a delay. Those blocked do have the option of appealing. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 13:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Am I being a dick?

This has been settled. Keep the rest of the discussion on the article talk page. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 02:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible cut & paste move--what to do?

User:JackofOz has apparently moved the article on Sims Reeves from his full name, via cut and paste. I haven't notified him on his talk page, but I'm pretty sure this goes against Misplaced Pages procedure. What should I do? --Eastlaw  ⁄ _contribs 03:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

If you would like to handle this, first explain to the editor the reason why this is forbidden (because it loses the article history), then undo the edits to the two articles or ask him to do it himself. Tell him that proper page moves in situations like this require the intervention of an admin. Since JackofOz asked whether this was okay back in April and got no response, there is no reason to believe he wasn't acting in good faith. (Disclaimer: I'm not an admin myself but I've handled this situation before.) Looie496 (talk) 04:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I would just ask him directly on his talk page. JackofOz has been here for 6 years, and is one of our most prolific editors. I am sure he would be ammenable to discussing this with you, and if he screwed up, I am 100% sure he will fix it if you let him know about it. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the move, it looks like he clearly noted in both edit logs what he was doing; which is usually enough for a cut-and-paste move. Some situations mandate a C&P move, such as article mergers, and this is the standard way it is done. Since both edit logs indicate the time and content moved, I think that is enough to qualify for GFDL/CC compliance. See Help:Merging for more info. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

While the edit summaries have helpful information, I think it is best to keep the page history in one article. Since the cross-page diff shows no substantial changes, I suggest that the old redirect/current article be tagged with {{db-move}} or speedied WP:CSD#G6 and the old article/new redirect moved as usual. There's no need for the extra work of a histmerge. Flatscan (talk) 05:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I've history merged the Sims Reeves article, and I've notified Jack about this discussion. Cut and paste moves should only be performed when merging or splitting articles. Using an edit summary to note a regular cut-and-paste move is not adequate because edit summaries aren't machine-readable. Also, when an article's history is split into two or more parts, some of the history can disappear due to page moves and other problems. For example, part of the page history for the light-year article was at Template:Convert/kly for over a year. Graham87 09:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, you can ask an admin to fix cut and paste moves at Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Graham87 09:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do it right, keeping that last redirect revision separate. Flatscan (talk) 03:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Many humble apologies from this sheepish perpetrator. Not sure what the heck I thought I was doing there. I've done uncountable page moves, and have often flagged for admin attention moves I couldn't do myself. For some reason, I just got it into my head that this solution was both available and acceptable. One out of two ain't bad, I guess. One of the risks of the Be Bold exhortation is that this sort of thing will occasionally happen, even to the cream of editors (*cough*). Again, my apologies. -- JackofOz (talk) 10:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

May I ask why this wasn't addressed on JackofOz's Talk page first? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

One can only wonder. I also wonder why we don't just +sysop Jack; it seems crazy that he can't do these things himself after 6 years here. Sarah 23:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Uninvolved administrator needed for sock puppets

See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Psychology12345

As I am involved in a content dispute on the page in question, could an uninvolved administrator take this is investigation to its natural conclusion? Chillum 04:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done. Bagged, tagged, sold to the butcher in the store... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Now it seems we need another admin to review one of the account's unblock request: User talk:Dolphinfin. Chillum 19:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that, despite his claim to be a new user who just happened upon the article, he has a striking familiarity with such concepts as "arbitration clerks" and other stuff which a new user would not. Couple this with the checkuser result and the behavioral evidence, and it certainly does not appear that his unblock request holds water. --Jayron32.talk.say no to drama 19:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom considering unban of Betacommand

Since this is the board where community bans are usually discussed, I thought I should post a notice here that ArbCom are considering lifting the community ban on Betacommand (talk · contribs), and have requested input here: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Ban_appeal:_Betacommand 129.240.250.15 (talk) 05:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I do believe a clerk dropped a note here about this when it was brought up. –xeno 13:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

AfD needs closing

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/King's Lynn in popular culture has been open for nearly a month, with not even an administrative relisting. ThemFromSpace 06:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done (X! · talk)  · @496  ·  10:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Google doodle

I made the following post at Wikiproject Spam yesterday, but as the project does not seem to be geared up for discussion, and I think this requires a discussion, I am posting here also.

Links to Google Doodle are turning up in hundreds of articles. I reverted this one but would like a view from the project on whether or not to consider this straightforward spamming.

Thanks. SpinningSpark 07:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a good-faith attempt at wikilinking rather than spam, but since the edits seem to be trivial in nature they should be reverted as such. ThemFromSpace 07:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It is trivia and should be reverted. Although systematically adding links to anything is often regarded as spam, in this case it's just a misunderstanding. Johnuniq (talk) 12:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree it is good faith and did not mean to say that it was not (although I probably did). However, I still don't like it very much, the cites are to the google logo itself which neither verifies the claimed fact nor establishes notability of the logo. SpinningSpark 18:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"Vandalism Patrol"

User:Slovenian military-patriot

I'm not sure, but the recent pictures he's uploaded seem to have a problem. The user claims to have created the works, but the pictures have the copyright info of different websites. The pictures were taged for unfree useage or something, but the user deleted every mention of it. ] Diffs- Abce2 (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Pretty obviously copyvio I thought and deleted them. I haven't deal with the editor yet though. Dougweller (talk) 13:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Request review of MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist request

(Repost from 14:02, 7 July 2009 after no adnin response.)

I left a request at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist#astore.amazon.com/onthemargins-20/detail/0029347807 for white-listing (rather than WP-blocking) the site, that is, URL

http://astore.amazon.com/onthemargins-20/detail/0029347807

That site contains an extensive sole-source excerpt of ch. 1 from the book Markets and Hierarchies: Analysis and Antitrust Implications by Oliver E. Williamson. Action on the request was in the "not done" category with the note 2 Edits later that:

I'm still not convinced; if another admin viewing here thinks differently they can go ahead and add it. Stifle (talk) 18:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Upon the generous counsel of Stifle yesterday at User talk:Thomasmeeks#MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist#astore.amazon.com/onthemargins-20/detail/0029347807, I am seeking a review of my request. I have found only 2 subsequent admin actions of any kind at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist since June 21 other than by Stifle, suggesting that the request might have been overlooked rather than rejected.

I did add a note on June 21 after Stifle's ccmment at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist#astore.amazon.com/onthemargins-20/detail/0029347807, bottom. It makes the case for the request succinctly and I hope more clearly trhan before. Thank you for your consideration. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 12:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Georgian alphabet‎

Please, look Georgian alphabet‎. User Kober at first try to delete (1, 2) information with Reliable sources. Now he asks "by whom" (1, 2) when I quot Donald Rayfield's "It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets..." Divot (talk) 14:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Worth taking action?

An IP recently added this. It's been reverted and the IP has been blocked. Should we move on to ignoring, or is this worth reporting somewhere? TNXMan 14:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I would tend towards ignoring; seems like petty vandalism. Stifle (talk) 15:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agee with Stifle - possibly that kind of threat would be worth reporting if it was posted elsewhere, but given the subject of that article it sounds like particularly unimaginative petty vandalism. ~ mazca 15:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Put me down in the boxscore for one RBI. TNXMan 16:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What's the best way to handle this copy and paste with no attribution?

At Ancient history I noted that Reddi (talk · contribs) had removed a 'too long' template although the article was 110 kb. I drew editors' attention to the length of the article and our guidelines at WP:TOOLONG, noting that there was no rush. Shortly thereafter Reddi cut out over 60kb and changed the dab page Ancient civilization to an article. Not only no discussion, but just copy and paste with no attribtuion, thus breaching our licences. I'm not sure how to rectify the license situation, just revert it all? Is there any guidance about suddenly changing a dab page to an article which doesn't even have all the links the dab page had? From one perspective, the dab page has been deleted with no AfD. Dougweller (talk) 18:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think revert..., and, if the changes are editorially desirable, move the page to Ancient civilization (disambiguation), repaste with proper attribution, (i.e. "cut from http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ancient_history&oldid=301383021" and use the split-to and split-from templates on the talk pages) and a hatnote to the disambig page. Also, this would've been a great topic for the newly minted WP:Content noticeboard, of which you may be unaware. –xeno 18:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the changes for now, strictly for the licensing concerns. The discrepancy over "TOOLONG" is another issue with which I'm not familiar. –xeno 18:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License. With a link back ? J. D. Redding 18:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(twice, 3rd time lucky?)Thanks, xeno. I didn't think of the new board, although I did look at it a few days ago. I've asked on the talk page that any changes wait for a bit more input. Reddi, as I said, there's no rush, you have a habit of making major changes with no discussion, try breaking it here please. Dougweller (talk) 18:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: I gave a link back to the original article. "In Ancient history" ...

Doing the split would be the best; I guess that it's not the best ... =-\ ...

... btw, I was wondering, If i edit the article, am I the last liscensee? ... and then I create another new article would I be citing myself? just wondering. J. D. Redding 18:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

In this edit you should have entered "cut from http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ancient_history&oldid=301383021". Else it looks like you just came up with 67,000 bytes of text all on your own. I'm going to ping everyone's favourite copyright expert to look at this to ensure I'm not misinforming anyone. –xeno 18:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's great. I will try to do that. But do ] hyperlinks in the article conform? ... or should that be on the edit summary? ... or both? ... any info would be great ... J. D. Redding 19:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe that attribution requires acknowledgment of the purpose of the link. A wikilink within the article itself doesn't meet the conditions of Misplaced Pages:Splitting, that's for sure. :) Our readers would have no more reason to look at ancient history for attribution than they would, say, history, which is also wikilinked. A hyperlink in edit summary is sufficient. Recommend language is "split content from article name". There are also several templates to place at talk pages to note splits. There's a conversation about the subject in general at Help talk:Merging#Edit summaries.2C best practice (and it could use more contributors). There I've proposed jettisoning the whole lot of "merge from" and "merge to" and "split from" templates in favor of one, currently housed at User:Moonriddengirl/License credit, which would render on an article's talk page like so:

As that template highlights, we also recommend a note in edit summary and/or at the article talk of the source article, just to prevent future deletion. This seems more imperative to me with articles that are more in danger of deletion, but I suppose it can also help to prevent a move that would break attribution chain. Current templates in use are viewable at Category:Split maintenance templates. --Moonriddengirl 19:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd support a single template solution. Would make it a lot easier. –xeno 19:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. ... the hardwired link to a diff is what it comes down to as to attribution from the above. (eg., 'A hyperlink in edit summary is sufficient' with "split content from article name"; ok)

As to the attribution chain, how far back must it go? J. D. Redding 19:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As far back as there are substantial creative content contributors whose works are copied. wmf:Terms of Use sets out the condition of license: "As an author, you agree to be attributed in any of the following fashions: a) through a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to the article or articles you contributed to, b) through a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to an alternative, stable online copy which is freely accessible, which conforms with the license, and which provides credit to the authors in a manner equivalent to the credit given on this website, or c) through a list of all authors. (Any list of authors may be filtered to exclude very small or irrelevant contributions.)" Essentially, if there is enough creativity to warrant copyright protection, attribution is required. But say you split material to Ancient civilization from Ancient history and duly note it. If Ancient civilization is later split again into Semi-recent civilization, you wouldn't need to note that the attribution history of Ancient history should also be checked. Those tracking the attribution history should be able to follow the chain themselves. --Moonriddengirl 19:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. For your time and info. J. D. Redding 20:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Schutz's tool

I have neither the time nor the energy to tag all of these myself, so I'm bringing the subject here. There is currently a backlog of 248 broken redirects on Schutz's tool, and I would appreciate it if an administrator or two wouldn't mind reviewing these. Thanks in advance! Cheers, → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 21:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot of these seem to be false positives. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The toolserver's enwiki database is broken, so any results from that tool are bound to be unreliable. Also most broken redirects are now deleted by my bot YaRCT --Chris 07:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Flameviper

This is basically a ping to draw attention to a section at the top of the page. An uninvolved admin is needed to close the "Flameviper ban review" section above appropriately, before it gets archived. If anybody was already intending to handle this, sorry for the disturbance. Looie496 (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

For easier access: He is referring to this section (permalink as of now). Regards SoWhy 21:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, such discussions don't need to be formally "closed" by anyone. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Somebody has to actually unblock him, if that is the outcome. I didn't want to presume the conclusion by explicitly saying so. Looie496 (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that's quite different. I'll go count heads and read rationales and see if I can figgur it out. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 22:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

WT:PHARM:CAT

We need a third party admin to close-out the consensus question currently posted at WT:PHARM:CAT. Would someone mind doing that for us? ---kilbad (talk) 23:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done BJ 01:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat by National Portrait Gallery, London

Well, there are some things that we can do, here at Misplaced Pages. As a community service, I have just done one of them: expanded Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.. Interlego v Tyco Industries requires writing, and Photography and the law#United Kingdom is, to be frank (having just read the sources that I used to expand Bridgeman), piss-poor, since it's really Misplaced Pages editors' firsthand interpretation of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act (cited as the source in most cases) rather than the rather different analysis of U.K. case and statute law that is available in actual sources. Uncle G (talk) 06:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC on Misplaced Pages:Advisory Council on Project Development

The community's views are needed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development. SlimVirgin 17:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

User removed own comments on Talk:Colgate University..?

Hey. In this diff, Mcg942 (talk · contribs) removed his edits from a conversation that's more than six weeks old. The edit comment was "removed my contributions to discussion for purpose of privacy, please do not revert", but now the page looks like I had a conversation with myself and asked for a third opinion for no reason. Since the user mentioned privacy, I thought I'd start a thread here, since that gets into oversight issues. But should I revert it for the sake of having a complete discussion, or should I just leave the user's comments off? — HelloAnnyong 20:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The discussion remains in the history (the edit before the removal has the entire discussion), although you might like to mark the gaps with "(redacted comment)" to maintain the format - although it should be obvious there is stuff missing. I looked at the removed comments and see no obvious reason for them to be removed, but if the editor thinks it is important, and this is a consensual community, then I think their wishes should be respected. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/July 2009 cyber attacks

I was wondering if the AfD should be closed now per WP:SNOWBALL? I don't think it needs any further discussion, particularly since it is linked from Main Page. --BorgQueen (talk) 03:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done Protonk (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

WebCite

WebCite, a popular on-demand web archiving service referenced by Misplaced Pages over 20,000 times, went down for a server upgrade on June 24th. WebCite is currently "on-line" but a few things were broken in the upgrade and it is currently not working properly - for example, returning error messages or blank pages for most previous archives. ThaddeusB has been in contact with Gunther Eysenbach throughout the process and would like to assure the community that efforts are underway to fix the broken links. In the mean time, please do not remove, or otherwise attempt to fix, "broken links" to webcitation.org. See this discussion for more information. --Blargh29 (talk) 05:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Outage

This is the 2nd weekend now where the site has been more or less inaccessable, at least for Europeans. Is this breakage in service to likely continue? I realasie this is not the place such a question, but cant think of anywhere else. I expect that that I will be pointed towards an apology msg along the lines of 'server down, nothing I can do', but are not the developers paid employees. Ceoil (talk) 13:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

See WP:VPT#extreme slowness.3F - basically the image server got overloaded. MER-C 14:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)