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Criticisms and ideas for improvement

(paraphrased from the Fringe theories noticeboard, by ImperfectlyInformed):

• The lead uses 20 footnotes (some repeat citations) to tell the reader the "it's not scientific".
• There is no discussion of mechanism in the lead.
• Water memory gets only one sentence which doesn't even mention the most relevant mainstream fact, i.e. that water's structure lasts about 1 picosecond, nor any of the proponents' research.
• There is little discussion of how most homeopathic remedies would be expected to have zero molecules of the original substance.
• No mention of scientific investigation into the law of similars.
• No mention of the Bayesian approach where findings are weighted by prior plausibility, which is an argument against any positive findings.
• The article needs more detail on what homeopaths do and how they see the world.(comment by Short Brigade Harvester Boris)

Fences and windows (talk) 15:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

For the first few points: The citations were required by the edit warring and accusations of bias made by pro-homeopathy editors; There is no plausible mechanism, so it is hard to discuss and have in the lead, unless we simply state there is no plausible mechanism (plenty of sources for that) - mechanism is also secondary to effect, and there is no evidence of effect - as the article and lead make clear; water memory in the article could be expanded, but it is only one proposed mechanism and has been mostly discredited and abandoned - even by homeopaths - and should be dealt with in its own article. I don't have a problem with water memory research and dilution problems being expanded on. The other points sound like good ideas for expanding the article. Verbal chat 15:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. One authoritative recent citation, lacking a contradicting recent citation, is as authoritative as 4. I hardly think the ref-bombing changed the edit-warring. Blaming promotional homeopaths for poor-writing and ref-bombing is unconvincing, especially since DanaUllman hasn't been editing for a long while. Whether the proposed mechanisms are plausible or not is irrelevant since this article, like all articles, is an expository encyclopedia article. Proposed mechanisms must be summarized in the lead. Reading over again, perhaps I was a little sharp in my response. II | (t - c) 18:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The article also should move away from (what I call) "Misplaced Pages style" writing, which consists of sentences built like those rambling New England houses, where phrases and clauses are strung together, much like additional rooms are gradually added to the original house, with lots of parenthetical statements (like nooks and crannies), which makes it harder to find your way around, and which can cause you to lose your original path as a reader, or as a visitor. Never underestimate the power of the simple declarative sentence. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Verbal chat 16:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I wonder whether we need so much detail in the lead as to why homeopathy is criticised by scientists? The lead is a summary, and I'm not sure we need to include all the information about law of mass action etc. right upfront; it does clutter the lead. I agree that most of the info on water memory should be in its own article, but it is a notable suggested mechanism. The weak quantum hypothesis should be explained in more detail as well (along with criticism!). Here's an article on prior beliefs and alternative medicine, which mentions Bayesian reasoning: . Fences and windows (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Opening up the edit window on this article, it's even more of a pain than I expected. It seems as if the people editing this article wanted to add every single article on homeopathy. For example, 3 articles on Zicam alone, numerous reviews dating from the 1990s to the 2000s. I really don't think this is necessary given that reviews of clinical trials all say the same thing: some trials showed efficacy, some don't, but homeopathy is implausible. Let's just cut the old ones and stick to the new, unless the old ones are shown to be particularly notable. II | (t - c) 22:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I've been moving slowly in this direction, preferring broad meta-analyses to more narrowly focused ones, more recent reviews to earlier ones, and so on. It's probably best to move slowly given the history of this article. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

That's an artifact of the article's past. I don't think most of you were here during the period when Dana Ullman and a dozen other really, really POV-pushing homeopaths were challenging everything, and forcing addition of more and more references to a statement to keep everything from being constantly challenged, and no admins were willing to step in and do a thing to deal with it. The best way I can describe it - and this is going to be dated soon enough as well: imagine five Martinphis all working to push their POV right here. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

If we were only to use what could be supported by WP:MEDRS reviews, the article could be reduced to an explanation of Homeopathy as a system of faith healing using water and sugar pills as placebos. Perhaps not a bad thing, though certain to meet some opposition.LeadSongDog come howl 20:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathy ain't faith healing. There R innumerable studies to prove it's effective (that's Y it's survived 200+ years), but U guys keep saying it's, 'Fringe Theory'. I C that the articles on Chiropractic, Naturopathy & Osteopathy are proFringe Theory, but this article is an attack piece - every statement is criticised and no defense of the criticism is allowed. I believe Col.Warden and Warfwar3 are right in inserting the POV tag.-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 10:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC) (sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey --Enric Naval (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

All good reviews have found that homeopathy has no clinical effect. The problems of mechanism are even harder to surmount. I hope that those other articles aren't pro fringe - I'll check. Let's keep to the theme of this thread by suggesting improvements, and doing them, rather than arguing about the recent state of the article and tags. I'm sure LSD was joking. Note that faith healing has been around longer than 200 years, and many "studies" also support it. Personally, I'll put my faith in the scientific method and EBM. I think that reduction of citations in the lead is good, but be careful not to lose them and note where they were - I did this before by using named refs, commented out after the first ref. We could also just put a link here to an "over-referenced" version. Verbal chat

Good reviews? I believe they've been cherry picked. I'd like to put up a defense of all the criticism, will y'all let me?-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 03:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC) (sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey --Enric Naval (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

The whole point of the reviews is that they are not cherry-picked (although homoeopaths often claim that they are). While the recent and much hyped criticisms of the Shang paper have accused the authors of post-hoc cherry-picking in their choice of papers, a response published in Homoeopathy (Homeopathy Volume 98, Issue 2, April 2009, Pages 127-128) has made it clear that this is not the case. Ironically, many of the criticisms of the Shang paper from homoeopaths actually do rely on post-hoc selection of papers to make their point. Brunton (talk) 08:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the lead is supposed to summarise points from the article, presumably it doesn't actually need any refs at all as long as the statements used are adequately referenced in the body of the article. Brunton (talk) 12:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As far as there being "no mention of scientific investigation into the law of similars" in the lead, how much scientific investigation into the law of similars has there been, beyond the sort of studies of efficacy that are already mentioned? Brunton (talk) 12:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a school of thought that says no references should be included in the lead, but on contentious articles this seems to me to lead directly to instability. Certainly, though, we are required to use the lead as a summary of the body without introducing new information; excluding explicit citations might help on that score. We might come to an informal agreement here that any sentence currently citing more than, say, three references should be either rewritten or the references pared to the most reliable. - 2/0 (formerly Eldereft) (cont.) 13:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Brunton is correct in principle: "Since the lead is supposed to summarise points from the article, presumably it doesn't actually need any refs at all as long as the statements used are adequately referenced in the body of the article."

I definitely favor keeping refs to a minimum in the LEAD, but we'll run into problems without a change of policies regarding WP:LEAD and sourcing. Right now it's not clear that a no-refs LEAD would be allowed. A compromise would be to use internal links to sections as refs in the LEAD. Here's my thinking: Since the LEAD must summarize all significant content (and to do that efficiently, everything that deserves a heading should be mentioned very shortly in the LEAD), we could use refs that point to the section which expands on the sentence or phrase in the LEAD which summarizes that section. I think this idea is worth a try. What do you think? If that sounds "clear as mud", just ask. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have started a section on the subject. Please participate there. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Brunton, the url you've posted leads to a skeptics blog, not the article in the 'Homeopathy' mag. The article talked about in that blog actually attacks Shang et al, so I'd like to put up a defense in this article. I'm wondering Y U guys R so anti Alt.Med. and Y y'all haven't been successful with the Chiropractic, Naturopathy and Osteopathy articles?-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 12:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC) (sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey --Enric Naval (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

The "skeptics blog" page I linked to is the text which was published in Homeopathy at the reference I gave above (see here). Here's the link to it in Homeopathy if you prefer. Brunton (talk) 16:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you not use "text speak", please, it's hard to read. I'm not anti alt-med, just pro evidence - and there isn't any that homeopathy works. As to adding "defence", feel free to propose a paragraph here that is backed up by WP:MEDRS. As for the other articles, address them on their talk pages - but I think you'll find they are watched by most of us also. Note that there are two kinds of osteopathy, one which is almost entirely conventional; modern, medicine. Also note that naturopaths use some proven, conventional, treatments - a criticism is that they also use treatments which lack any evidence or mechanism, such as Homeopathy - and they do things which have actual effects (whether those are good or bad...). Myself, I haven't looked at Chiropractic as it's not interesting. Also, I believe the blog author had his rebuttal of the rather poor Shang "criticisms" published. Verbal chat 12:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed he did. I gave the reference (Homeopathy Volume 98, Issue 2, April 2009, Pages 127-128) above but linked to the blog as it has the full text available. He also discusses the authors' response here. Brunton (talk) 16:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

There were responses to that, which you've conveniently not mentioned, I think we'll need someone to arbitrate here!-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 09:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC) (sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey --Enric Naval (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

Please give references for these responses. Presumably when you say that I've "conveniently not mentioned" the responses (please AGF, BTW), you don't mean the response of the authors of the paper (published, along with Wilson's critique, in the most recent edition of Homeopathy), because that is extensively quoted on the blog page I've already linked to in the post you appear to be replying to (16:16, 6 May 2009). I'm not aware of any other responses. Brunton (talk) 10:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Some of you have posted about 'writing for the enemy', but I don't see any of you writing for the enemy (homeopaths in this case). The whole article is full of criticism!-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 13:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC) (sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey --Enric Naval (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

The lead is looking good these days, IMHO. One suggestion for improvement though. The following line is from the lead: "Specific pharmacological effect with no active molecules violates fundamental principles of science..." Since science is generally viewed as a methodology, and not a list of conclusions, I'd suggest changing this to "violates fundamental principles of chemistry, physics, and pharmacology". I'm sure the references listed support the change, as they all likely address concerns of these specific disciplines.Puddin'head Wilson (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this article needs to reflect the FDA's current ruling on Zicam. If it is, in fact, a homeopathic medication, and it is banned for having a real effect on a user's sense of smell, that is evidence weighing on the side of homeopathic medications having real effects (real side effects, at least) 68.161.160.231 (talk) 12:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The article presently states, under the heading ethical and safety issues, "Zicam Nasal Spray, which contains 2X (1:100) zinc gluconate, reportedly caused a small percentage of users to lose their sense of smell; 340 cases were settled out of court in 2006 for 12 million U.S. dollars." Do you have another source regarding the FDA's current ruling that should be included as well? —Whig (talk) 14:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Representativity of research

As NHS reports, "some homeopaths argue that much of the research conducted into the effectiveness of homeopathy is not representative of routine homeopathic practice and that homeopathic treatment cannot be properly tested through standard clinical means. Is this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.194.67 (talk) 22:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I've seen homoeopaths use this excuse for the lack of good evidence, but I'm not convinced that it's valid - trials of individualised homoeopathy don't appear to give positive results either. do you have a source for the NHS reporting this, or a reason that it is notable? Brunton (talk) 23:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It may not be valid in the way that homeopaths would like it to be valid, but it's quite plausible to me that "homeopathic" placebos are significantly more effective than "regular" placebos, especially for those patients who choose homeopathic treatment. Normal medical studies are not designed to measure the impact of factors such as the physician being conceived of as part of the medical establishment or not, treatment being free or not, medication coming with a detailed instruction leaflet or not, the physician asking surprising questions or not. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

properly designed trials are designed to eliminate those factors, as far as is possible, so that the effectiveness of the treatment itself can be assessed. homoeopaths do not, as far as I'm aware, complain that RCTs are not a good way of assessing homoeopathy because they eliminate the placebo effect, because homoeopaths claim that the remedies have an effect over that of a placebo. Brunton (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That was exactly my point, see my first 16 words above. I know of only one study designed to measure the placebo effect of homeopathy compared to the placebo effect of regular medicine; it must be somewhere in the references to this article or to placebo. IIRC it was in the 1950s! There seems to have been no further research on this, presumably because neither side has an interest in replicating the positive result of that old study, and also because there are of course immense methodical problems such as self-selection of participating physicians etc. --Hans Adler (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the references to hand, but I'm sure there is some research into placebos that indicates that more elaborate placebos (such as the homoeopathic consultation process), or more apparently invasive placebos, have a greater effect than, for example, a simple placebo pill. There is even research that suggests that different coloured placebo pills produce different effects. But I think we're getting a bit OT here and into discussion of the placebo effect rather than homoeopathy. As I said, homoeopaths claim that the effects of homoeopathy are not placebo effects. I can even provide an example of a proponent of homoeopathy claiming that homoeopathy has less of a placebo effect than "orthodox medical pills because they are advertised so widely in billion-dollar campaigns". Brunton (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Off-topic? Perhaps for this section, but not for this article. Granted, this topic should not get much weight in the article because it's not widely discussed. Perhaps it should not be mentioned at all. But these thoughts are very relevant for understanding why, for example, the WHO position w.r.t. homeopathy is quite positive.

Both proponents and opponents of homeopathy want to reduce the comparison between homeopathy and regular medicine to to effects above placebo. That's not ethical. Most patients aren't interested in whether it's the placebo effect that helps them or something else. (I forgot the name of the violently anti-alternative-medicine bloke who wrote a book while dying of cancer. Such people are exceptions.) They want to get better. As a hypothetical question: If for some fatal disease X for which there is no remedy 10% of patients in conventional treatment get better spontaneously, and 30% in homeopathical treatment get better, what will you recommend your significant other who, let's say, believes in homeopathy and catches the disease? Should our article, in this case, cite some hard-core debunker who says that it's totally irresponsible to treat X with homeopathy? --Hans Adler (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That text is from a "patient information leaflet" from the NHS, called "Effectiveness of homeopathy" . I have to say that the text loses a lot of weight when you read it in its original context.....

In the article there is already a sentence saying "Clinical studies of the medical efficacy of homeopathy have been criticised by some homeopaths as being irrelevant because they do not test 'classical homeopathy'". I would suggest adding that source near that point. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

We already have two sources cited for that statement. Do we really need a third? By the way, I don't think we should include the NHS in the article with reference to this - it is an NHS leaflet describing the opinions of homoeopaths, not the opinion of the NHS itself, so only useful as evidence of the opinion of homoeopaths. Naming the NHS might give the opinion an air of authority that it doesn't deserve. Brunton (talk) 15:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

If this is true then my edit was OK and claims of homeopathy should be included.

"Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view."

Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.194.67 (talk) 23:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It is not the view of the NHS: it is merely the NHS reporting its opinion of the views of homoeopaths. This viewpoint of homoeopaths is already reported in the article, as noted above. Brunton (talk) 23:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That last edit should not have been noted as a minor edit - I clicked on it by mistake. Brunton (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

If some homeopaths say that “homeopathic treatment cannot be properly tested through standard clinical means” but can’t think of any specific reason why they wouldn’t, then this would be a minority view and not directly relevant to the research itself. — NRen2k5, 00:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

An objection they raise to some clinical trials - that they are not individualised and therefore don't reflect classical homoeopathy - might have some validity, but it would also exclude most of the trials that they claim support homoeopathy (I haven't seen homoeopaths rushing to denounce the non-individualised OTC homoeopathic nostrums that are sold in pharmacies either). This objection does not, of course, apply to the trials of individualised homoeopathy that have been carried out, which have also failed to show consistent effects (see for example this comment on a 1998 review (my emphasis): "In this analysis only trials of individualized homeopathy were included, which should theoretically be the ones with the stronger effects. This analysis also showed a significant, albeit smaller effect of RR = 1.62 (CI 1.17-2.23). This significant effect vanished if only the methodologically sound trials were taken into account"). Brunton (talk) 07:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

We must make sure not to fall into the outgroup homogeneity bias trap. There is no contradiction if some homeopaths reject non-individualised studies with a negative outcome and others accept non-individualised studies with a positive outcome. It could just mean that they don't agree with each other about how effective homeopathy should be when not done according to the book. And even if a single homeopath advances both arguments I don't see a big contradiction. Basically they are saying these studies are not done properly, and even so some of them give positive results. --Hans Adler (talk) 08:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The issue of individualisation isn't a valid reason for rejecting the use of RCTs to assess homoeopathy, because RCTs of individualised homoeopthy can be, and in fact have been, carried out (although proponents of homoeopathy do sometimes deny this). See above, and for a more recent example, White et al. 2003. As far as the issue of "contradiction" goes (it isn't really relevant to the issue of whether RCTs are appropriate), what about the same homoeopaths rejecting negative non-individualised trials (on the grounds that they are non-individualised) but accepting positive non-individualised trials? Brunton (talk) 09:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you missed that I responded only to a specific aspect of what you said. Also, my last two sentences already dealt with the case of a single homeopath.

After rereading your comments I think I probably misunderstood your intent. It looked a bit like homeopath-bashing, which would be unsuitable for this talk page, but I guess what you really did was try to argue the homeopaths' side to some extent, because they are underrepresented. Of course that's really something we need to do as long as we have this problem. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I was more trying to present the argument I've seen proponents of homoeopathy put forward with regard to RCTs (see the Guardian article I linked to, which says "In orthodox trials, all patients in the "real" group are given the same drug for the same length of time. Homeopaths do not work like that. For one condition, they may select one of a dozen or more remedies, chosen after long and detailed interviews") than to ague their case, but I hope I haven't misrepresented them. Brunton (talk) 12:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

To be clear, it is not at all difficult to construct a DBRCT in theory. Enlist two hundred practioners. Take two hundred copies of a standard repertory. In one hundred, replace all the liquids with pure water. Add code number lables to each bottle, registering whether it was standard (S) or water (W) in a codebook. Randomly populate the two hundred repertories so each contains about half S, half W bottles, registering the code numbers in each repertory. Distribute to practitioners and have them track success rates on a subjective 1-5 scale against prescriptions for each for a year. Break the code and analyse the statistics. Publish. Of course practitioners may not wish to voluntarily participate in their own downfall, so the "enlist" part will be problematic. LeadSongDog come howl 15:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that any practitioner would be willing to use placebos for a year, even if you believe that the effect of homeopathic medicine is placebo, any more than an orthodox physician would be willing to do so versus using standard medications. It really is difficult to construct a DBRCT against an informational remedy, and it is difficult to construct a DBRCT against any personalized therapy, be it surgery or massage or psychology. —Whig (talk) 14:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No, it's really quite simple to design a DBRCT of individualised homoeopathy, as outlined by LeadSongDog above (it needn't be for a year). Trials of this type have actually been carried out. Brunton (talk) 15:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide references? It would also be important to note whether these trials followed normal homeopathic practice in other respects, and what criteria were used to evaluate effects. —Whig (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've already linked to one above, and also to a comment on a systematic review of published in 1998 which found 32 trials. Here's the review itself. Brunton (talk) 17:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

(undent) It's also worth reading this summary of that article. LeadSongDog come howl 19:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

According to this meta analysis,

In the 19 placebo-controlled trials providing sufficient data for meta-analysis, individualized homeopathy was significantly more effective than placebo (pooled rate ratio 1.62, 95% confidence interval 1.17 to 2.23), but when the analysis was restricted to the methodologically best trials no significant effect was seen. CONCLUSION: The results of the available randomized trials suggest that individualized homeopathy has an effect over placebo.

I guess the question is what qualifies as "methodologically best" and whether normal homeopathic practice is regarded as such. —Whig (talk) 06:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that "methodologically best" is, as per the usual usage in a systematic review, describing the design of the studies and denoting those least likely to give biased results, rather than being a comment on the relative competence of the homoeopaths involved. But as to whether the studies were of "normal homoeopathic practice", this is explicitly a review of studies of "individualised" homoeopathy, carried out by researchers who are highly experienced in assessing studies of homoeopathy, and are frequently cited approvingly by homoeopaths, to the extent that one of them is on the record as saying that their work "has unfortunately been misused by homoeopaths as evidence that their therapy is proven". Brunton (talk) 10:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to assume that "methodologically best" refers to criteria that would not exclude the very studies which most resemble normal homeopathic practice, we need to know what their specific criteria were for making that selection, even so their results "suggest that individualized homeopathy has an effect over placebo." —Whig (talk) 16:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

"The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies." Brunton (talk) 07:52, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Which is why I asked the criteria for "methodologically best". —Whig (talk) 13:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Studies were only considered as being of individualised homoeopathy if either a) the prescribers were completely free in their choice of remedy; b) prescribers chose from a set of remedies frequently used for treating the condition in question; or c) the trial only included patients whose symptom picture matched the remedy used. Quality was assessed on the basis of the answer to four questions: was allocation randomized? Was the study double-blind? Was it published in a MEDLINE-listed journal? Are there no other obvious relevant flaws? Of the six studies for which the answer to all four questions above was "yes" (the set defined as "likely to have good methodological quality"), three involved a completely free choice of remedy, one allowed a choice of 11 remedies and only included patients if one of these was their similimum (this was the one of the six which was most favourable to homoeopathy), and the other two used the best-matched remedy from a set of remedies. From the stated criteria and inclusion of three trials with a completely free choice it doesn't appear that the quality criteria necessarily excluded trials most closely reflecting the normal practice of individualised homoeopathy. Brunton (talk) 22:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Individualization is only one aspect of normal homeopathic practice, and I have previously stated my doubts that double blinding is appropriate in these studies, which you rebutted by pointing out that double blind studies have been done and successfully, but then you claim that those studies that are "best" are those which are double blind and these demonstrate a less convincing effect. So which is it? Does double blinding affect the results of studying homeopathic effectiveness? As far as patients given their simillimum having the most favorable results, that would seem at least to suggest that a well chosen remedy has benefits over placebo, do you disagree? —Whig (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The "best" studies, in the context of evaluating whether a therapy actually works, are those least likely to produce biased results. Double-blinding eliminates a source of possible bias in the results; perhaps particularly relevant in the light of the authors' comment (p. 384) that "the motivation for doing trials seems less to be innovation or self-critical evaluation of performance (which is generally agreed to be the motivation for good research) but rather justification in front of a hostile scientific establishment." While they note that "double-blind conditions and placebo controls interfere with everyday conditions in routine homeopathic practice", there is no convincing reason that this should interfere with the efficacy of the treatment. To explain the poorer results of more rigorously carried out trials as some sort of artifact of the double-blinding interfering with the efficacy of the remedy you would have to invoke something like Milgrom's "entanglement", and there are (to say the least) far less improbable explanations. As for your last point about the most positive result of the six, that is what is known as "cherry-picking". Why ignore the other five trials of equal quality (other than on the basis of their results)? At least three of them seem to have more closely resembled normal practice in that the homoeopaths had an unrestricted choice of remedy. Brunton (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Entanglement is absolutely relevant to cavitation QED photon binding, because coherence is lost when the cavity collapses, and information cannot be recovered unless a cavity domain is restored in microtubules or some other structure. This is not Milgrom's explanation, and entanglement is not a fringe theory. Whether you accept that cQED applies in all cavity domains (and if it doesn't, that would be extraordinary indeed!), granting the possibility that you may be wrong, you should recognize that double blinding could well interfere with proper reception. —Whig (talk) 14:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, that looks like smoke and mirrors to me. How can quantum entanglement and photon binding be proved to have an effect on homoeopathy when homoeopathy isn’t even proved to be real? — NRen2k5, 00:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The physics don't concern themselves with your question. CQED photon binding is real, and structures to detect photons are how we sense anything. You can disbelieve all you like. —Whig (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I don’t disbelieve it at all, I just disbelieve that it’s relevant to homoeopathy. You might as well be attributing the failures to the tides or to solar flares. — NRen2k5, 00:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I have observed it to be highly effective, and I doubt that tides or solar flares are a plausible mechanism. —Whig (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

All of this is, of course, irrelevant as far as objections to double-blind trials is concerned. For these alleged quantum effects involved in the manufacture of the remedy to be relevant here, you need to establish some way that blinding would destroy the alleged effect, but the normal prescribing practices of homoeopaths wouldn't (after having, of course, established that quantum effects are somehow involved in the therapeutic results). It seems to me that "quantum" is once again being used as a synonym for "magic". Brunton (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

As I said before, I'm unaware of double blind trials being used in other informational and personalized therapies, and do not believe there is a reason to expect it to be appropriate for testing homeopathy. It is not normal homeopathic practice at any rate. There is nothing magic about quantum physics, but entanglement and coherence are not describable in classical terms. —Whig (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Make all the excuses you want. The failure to scientifically prove homoeopathy has any effect beyond placebo is not science’s, it’s homoeopathy’s. — NRen2k5, 09:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

You “observed it to be highly effective”? I’d like some detail about that. It would be helpful for you to learn where you went wrong. — NRen2k5, 00:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. 1) Choose remedy. 2) Take remedy. 3) Observe effects. Repeat steps 1, 2 and 3 with the same and different doses. Same method I would have observed the pain relieving properties of psychedelics. —Whig (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I said detail - as in, what ailments have you seen treated, and what effects have you seen in what amount of time? How do you rule out the placebo effect? How do you distinguish between the remedy’s effects and the natural course of the ailment? — NRen2k5, 09:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I am speaking of direct personal observation of effects, details of which are not appropriate to list here. I rule out the placebo effect by repetition and careful attention to state. As I said, this is also the only way I could have observed the pain relieving properties of psychedelics. Further discussion on this should be taken to user talk or off-Wiki. —Whig (talk) 18:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, observation is only one small part of the scientific process. From what you’ve said so far, we’ll have to take your observations with a grain of salt. And I mean that in a non-homoeopathic way. — NRen2k5, 22:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

←Outdent. Funny you should mention magic, as Harald Walach basically argues that homeopathy is magic in this article:. Fences&Windows 00:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Magic is what some people call science they don't understand. —Whig (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Science is what some people call make-believe when they want to sell it. — NRen2k5, 09:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

What are you selling, NRen2k5? —Whig (talk) 18:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Nothing. Note that I followed your form: “some people”. Obviously not all magic is science and not all “science” is marketing. Now I’m going to be even more blunt: Are you a practitioner of alternative medicine, or more specifically, of homoeopathy? — NRen2k5, 22:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Practitioner in what sense? I use homeopathy and recommend it to my friends, who use it as well. I have never charged anyone for doing so. —Whig (talk) 00:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Magic is what you appeal to when reality won't play ball. Walach is a homeopath; if you read that article, he says choice things like "My analysis brings homeopathy in close proximity to other paranormal or anomalous disciplines, like distant healing, extrasensory perception or psychokinesis" and "I propose to abstain from a causal interpretation of homeopathy. Instead I contend that homeopathy is an acausal event, similar to synchronistic events. The homeopathic medicine is a sign which mediates the meaning between a mental-psychological state, the illness in the patient, and the physical realm of bodily functions, elements of nature, and the like. It acts via the original interconnectedness of all beings, which is activated, as in magical rituals, by the homeopathic ritual of case taking, remedy preparation, repertorization and remedy prescription." He's conceding that he can't prove that homeopathy works causally, and instead he is falling back on pseudoscience and appealing to mystical forces and quantum theory. Fences&Windows 21:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Quantum theory isn't mystical, but mystical uses may be made of quantum effects. So what? Unless this article is being used as a reference of some kind, it isn't relevant to anything, least of all to editing this Misplaced Pages article. —Whig (talk) 22:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

“So what?” Did you forget where this discussion started? It started with a claim from homoeopaths that the experiments that show homoeopathy to be completely effective were somehow flawed. And you started this line about “information” and “quantum effects” in defense of that claim. — NRen2k5, 23:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Your point is really unclear. Some people who don't understand quantum physics call it magic, that does not mean that quantum physics is magic. There is no validity to your implicit argument that because some people speak of quantum physics without understanding how it applies to homeopathy, therefore quantum physics does not apply to homeopathy.

Anyhow we're going in circles here, but wouldn't it be fascinating if we could find luminal particles within cellular microtubules? —Whig (talk) 23:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

My point is perfectly clear: your claim about quantum effects isn’t an explanation for the difficulty of proving homoeopathy’s effectiveness, it’s a petty excuse. “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” And no, let’s not drift off topic. — NRen2k5, 03:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There's no difficulty proving effectiveness, unless you insist on doing it wrong. We don't double blind informational therapies. —Whig (talk) 03:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean specifically there by “informational therapies”? How is homoeopathy an “informational therapy”? How does being an “informational therapy” make homoeopathy untestable by DBRCT? — NRen2k5, 05:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I was referring back to the earlier discussion, and DBRCT are not used to evaluate treatments such as psychology, massage or surgery. It is not clear that information is recoverable when double blinding is used, in fact it is the point that information is concealed when double blinding is used. When the remedy is information, then double blinding can conceal the remedy.

To undertake a full analysis of the consequences of DBRCT on entangled information is beyond the scope of a comment here, but it would be wrong to presume classical behavior. DBRCT is not how homeopathy is done, and when you are studying homeopathy with DBRCT you are not studying homeopathy as it is practiced. There is no similar objection to observational studies, and these may provide clear evidence of benefit over and above placebo if not discarded as being of low quality because they aren't DBRCT. —Whig (talk) 06:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Whig, someone already pointed out how a double blind test could be done, so saying "double blind" is doing it wrong isn't enough, you have to explain why it is wrong. You say double blinding would destroy the information, but how? Do you think an bottle of water next to a "real" homeopathic remedy will destroy it? Or the doubt of the patient or the practitioner? --Six words (talk) 06:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with there being a bottle of water nearby or any doubt on the part of the patient or practitioner. It has to do with decoherence, and the ability of entangled information to be recovered. It is the burden of those performing DBRCT to ensure that entangled information will not be lost. —Whig (talk) 07:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What "entangled information"? It hasn't been established that any exists (who would you say the burden of proof lies with there?). Brunton (talk) 07:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Please don't just throw around words like decoherence. It does exist, but that doesn't mean it applies here. If this entangled information is really there, how can it be stable when a patient handles it, but not when someone carefully setting up a test does? --Six words (talk) 08:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not throwing around words, I am using them precisely. Decoherence is what happens when cavitation bubbles collapse, as any excited state atoms will then be free to exchange state with any other atom in the medium, within which the information is thereby entangled. In order for the information to be recovered a coherent state must be restored, which may occur in microtubules, within which luminal particles have been found. —Whig (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

As a published academic author of well cited papers on quantum mechanics covering measurment and decoherence, I can assure you that this conversation is off topic per WP:TALK and should now move to user talk pages (perhaps Whig's or NRen2k5's, or even mine), where I'd be happy to join in. Discussions of quantum mechanics/mysticism should cease here, unless directly related to improving the article. Verbal chat 20:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I can also confirm that these claims have flowered into ripe bullshit. The term "luminal" particles, in the context of microtubules, precisely refers to cellular particles in the interior, or lumen of microtubules. They are many orders of magnitude too large to show quantum effects. They are not luminal in the sense of photons or particles of light. There is nothing quantum about this paper, save for the tool of cryo-electron microscopy that the authors use to investigate the luminal particles. Whig, you've been sanctioned for this sort of behavior in the past. Skinwalker (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I admit that I am not very familiar with these structures and may have misinterpreted this paper, which I just discovered last night. If I have done something sanctionable I apologize and this conversation is finished here, at any rate. Please feel free to follow up with me on my talk. I don't need to restate what I have said but I have struck the part that may be in error. —Whig (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

To wit "If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit". Don't you hate it when others understand the bullshit better than you ??? :-) Shot info (talk) 04:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Question about heading title

Question: The heading uses the nonword/misspelling "Representatity". Shouldn't it be "Representativity"? If another word was intended, then it needs fixing. Whatever the case, please change the heading. It's driving me nuts! -- Brangifer (talk) 14:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks like Brunton fixed this a long time ago and I didn't notice it. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks like he did it right after you mentioned it. — NRen2k5, 08:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope I didn't commit some sort of faux pas. Brunton (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nah. — NRen2k5, 08:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Zicam

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQ2bZ11tGtoiKx6BO5K70Lx1ETmgD98SK27G0

Some interesting stuff here in the wake of the Zicam issues...esecially on safety: And don't even suggest that Zicam isn't homeopathic, they certainly put it on the box: http://www.zicam.com/products/coldremedy_rapidmelts_ce

But an Associated Press analysis of the Food and Drug Administration's side effect reports found that more than 800 homeopathic ingredients were potentially implicated in health problems last year. Complaints ranged from vomiting to attempted suicide.

In the case of Zicam, the FDA says it tied the drug to reports from 130 consumers who said they lost their sense of smell.

The agency on Tuesday told Zicam maker Matrixx Initiatives to stop marketing three products that carry zinc gluconate: Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel, Nasal Swabs and discontinued Swabs in Kids' Size. The agency said the drug must be tested for safety and benefit, like a conventional drug, before it is again marketed. And the FDA warned people not to use the three Zicam products.

"It never occurred to me they could be dangerous and there was no kind of oversight — like the FDA — that ensured there was safety," says former Zicam user David Richardson of Greensboro, N.C. He has complained to the FDA about losing his sense of smell and filed his case with a lawyer for a future lawsuit, joining hundreds of others who have claimed in recent years that they lost their sense of smell from Zicam cold products.

In its review of homeopathy, the AP also found that:

_ Active homeopathic ingredients are typically diluted down to 1 part per million or less, but some are present in much higher concentrations. The active ingredient in Zicam is 2 parts per 100.

_ The FDA has set strict limits for alcohol in medicine, especially for small children, but they don't apply to homeopathic remedies. The American Academy of Pediatrics has said no medicine should carry more than 5 percent alcohol. The FDA has acknowledged that some homeopathic syrups far surpass 10 percent alcohol.

_ The National Institutes of Health's alternative medicine center spent $3.8 million on homeopathic research from 2002 to 2007 but is now abandoning studies on homeopathic drugs. "The evidence is not there at this point," says the center's director, Dr. Josephine Briggs.

_ At least 20 ingredients used in conventional prescription drugs, like digitalis for heart trouble and morphine for pain, are also used in homeopathic remedies. Other homeopathic medicines are derived from cancerous or other diseased tissues. Many are formulated from powerful poisons like strychnine, arsenic or snake venom.

Guyonthesubway (talk) 14:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems this might be abuse of US process, calling things "homeopathic" which aren't by a reasonable definition, in order to avoid regulation. Or is it homeopathic something + actual amounts of Zinc, yet the homeopathic bit is enough to get around the law? Maybe his will lead to that law being changed, and hopefully some analysis of this will follow in science and popular press that can be added. Interesting! Blows the no side effects argument away if it is homeopathic. This should be added to that section at least. Verbal chat 15:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathic does not mean there are no material doses, only above 12C is this the case. —Whig (talk) 15:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it usual to go to higher potencies? Isn't that the point? But anyway, what about the "no side effects" claim for homeopathy? Verbal chat 15:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It isn't unusual to use low potencies when they are appropriate. There are no side effects, from the standpoint that there are only effects. However, potencies below about 3X are not often recommended and particularly in the case of a toxic starting material may not be safe. However, there are times when even a non-diluted tincture may be used homeopathically, so long as it is treating symptoms by like effects. For instance, when I am overtired, a cup of tea is homeopathic for me to aid in sleep. —Whig (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

“There are no side effects, from the standpoint that there are only effects.” I shouldn’t have to remind you that this is an encyclopedia. We’re interested in facts, not fantastic standpoints. — NRen2k5, 00:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I suggest reading the FDA's own information for a more coherent account than that provided by the AP
FDA information on Zicam
"don't even suggest that Zicam isn't homeopathic" <-- just placing the word "homeopathic" on a box does not make the contents homeopathic. The FDA has a regulatory process for homeopathic drugs. The FDA indicates that Zicam is getting special attention and that they are not treating it in the same way that they treat other drugs that are marketed as being homeopathic. It seems certain that this special attention involves the fact that Zicam uses a 2X concentration of zinc. --JWSchmidt (talk) 15:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

] Y ou will note from the letter ] that they make no mention of improper use of the term 'Homeopathic' . Guyonthesubway (talk) 18:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

When I researched the regulatory situation in the US for Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy, I found out that in the US everything that is in the official Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia is automatically legal. I also found a letter from the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia Convention to the FDA, notifying the FDA that a company tried to push something non-homeopathic into the pharmacopoeia. Now it looks as if the US has reason to make its regulation more similar to that in the EU, where a minimal dilution is part of the conditions for registration as a homeopathic remedy. (Of course registration via the normal process, i.e. proved efficacy etc., is always open in theory.) Hans Adler 19:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

• This recent edit in not very helpful. First, it is wrong to say that "the FDA advised consumers to discontune using Zicam Nasal Spray" and even the cited source (money.cnn.com) does not get things that wrong. I suggest citing the FDA itself (and not some "news" source) and providing a link to this FDA webpage where it correctly says which products are of concern to the FDA. --JWSchmidt (talk) 22:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
  • ]

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration today advised consumers to stop using three products marketed over-the-counter as cold remedies because they are associated with the loss of sense of smell (anosmia). Anosmia may be long-lasting or permanent"

I would say that its is entirely correct to sat the they advised consumers to stop using the products.... Guyonthesubway (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The FDA never said to stop using "Zicam Nasal Spray". --JWSchmidt (talk) 20:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Then let's state what the FDA states: "...FDA is alerting consumers that Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel, Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Swabs, and Zicam Cold Remedy Swabs, Kids Size,..." -- Brangifer (talk) 02:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• The article still has a link for "Zicam Nasal Spray" that leads to the Zinc gluconate article where I see no mention of "Zicam Nasal Spray" or "nasal spray" of any kind. Does "Zicam Nasal Spray" even exist? Did it once exist but has been discontinued? --JWSchmidt (talk) 03:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The Cold Remedy Nasal Gel is a spray, therefore it is not completely wrong to call it "Nasal Spray". But they also produce other nasal sprays: "Seasonal Allergy Relieve", "Intense Sinus Relieve" and "Extreme Congestion Relieve", so the sentence might be misleading. I'll change it to "Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel".--Six words (talk) 12:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The FDA document about nasal sprays does not mention gels and says that for sprays: "Energy is required for dispersion of the formulation as a spray. This is typically accomplished by forcing the formulation through the nasal actuator and its orifice." The instructions for Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel say, "Hold with thumb at bottom of bottle and nozzle between your fingers. Prior to initial use, prime pump by holding it upright and depressing several times (into a tissue) until the gel is dispensed. Place tip of nozzle just past nasal opening (approximately 1/8 inch). While inside nasal opening, slightly angle nozzle outward. Pump once into each nostril. To help avoid possible irritation, do not sniff up gel. This product helps put gel in the lower part of the nose. After application, press lightly on outside of each nostril for about 5 seconds." It sounds like the bottle for Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel is a gel applicator and I see no mention of "spray". --JWSchmidt (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a non-distinction -- it's like asking, "is water a liquid, or is it a spray?" Spraying is a method of application, and the material that is sprayed can be liquid, gel, powder, or whatever. So gel can be sprayed, e.g.. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that "a gel can be sprayed" does not tell us that Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel is sprayed. If you are claiming that this product is a "nasal spray" then please provide evidence to support that claim. --JWSchmidt (talk) 19:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Please read my post. I made no such claim; I merely pointed out that something may be both gel and a spray. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Only took a moment to confirm, but it doesn't require a source. Try their website, google, multiple newspaper articles... Verbal chat 21:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

"Only took a moment to confirm" <-- to confirm what? "it doesn't require a source" <-- eh? Where am I? --JWSchmidt (talk) 23:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This is an astonishigly tedious argument to continue having. The minor issue was fixed 12 hours ago and the the word "spray" does not currently appear in the article, though ). It's also clear that unsing the actual name of the product in question reduces ambiguity. Moving on... — Scientizzle 00:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I just reverted the deletion of "heavily diluted" from the lead until discussed. The rationale given for that deletion was that it wasn't cited to the FDA and Zicam was given as a counterexample. Both arguments are wrong. This is a worldwide endeavour, not just US, so the FDA position is informative, but not normative. Zicam clearly was a product that slipped through the regulatory cracks in that it was sold without a New Drug Approval . The FDA does discuss dilution in its CPG 7132.15 although "heavily" diluted is not quantified there.

Strictly speaking, homeopathy does not require dilution at all in some cases, as the example of having a cup of tea to help with sleep when overtired is homeopathic. It is of course important for more toxic remedies to be more heavily diluted for safety (and succussed for effectiveness).—Whig (talk) 22:23, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

"identifies them as homeopathic drug products with an active ingredient measured in homeopathic strength—Zincum Gluconicum 2X". How about we put that it's diluted to 2X? --Enric Naval (talk) 05:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this should be made explicit, we might parenthetically point out that 2X = 10 = 1 part in 100. Not very dilute. —Whig (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

That's already in the article. Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal Gel, which contains 2X (1:100) zinc gluconate, reportedly caused a small percentage of users to lose their sense of smell. --Six words (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'd like to see some sources that say that homeopathic = very dilute. I see nothing about that in either the FDA site or the in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia. Guyonthesubway (talk) 21:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

How about the Society of Homeopaths ("Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on treating the individual with highly diluted substances") or the British Homeopathic Association ("In homeopathy the active ingredient is highly diluted.")? I don't think the fact that homoeopathy almost always uses high dilutions can be considered to be in any way controversial. Brunton (talk) 12:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're right. On the contrary, it is very controversial to assert that homeopathic remedies aren't heavily diluted. I'd like to see some V & RS to back up such an exceptional situation. The norm is extreme dilutions. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It is not useful to stick "heavily diluted" into the first sentence of the introduction. The last sentence of the first paragraph could be changed to say, "Homeopathic remedies are often heavily diluted until none of the original substance remains." A major problem in Misplaced Pages's coverage of homeopathy is that the Misplaced Pages article where the issue of dilutions should be covered is a poor article that provides very little information about homeopathic dilutions. --JWSchmidt (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

That article appears to be an original synthesis to advance a position. I'm not sure anything useful can be done with it unless it is renamed/moved to Homeopathic potentization or something, and includes discussion of the succussion step. Otherwise it is making an argument which is best kept in the context of this main article, by trying to prove what is undisputed, that no atoms or molecules of original substance are present in highly diluted (>12C) remedies. —Whig (talk) 02:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for the article to exist. If someone wants to nominate it for deletion I'd vote accordingly. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Per the instructions in the deletion template, I have removed it and started a thread on the talk page. Please continue there. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Tea (split from Zicam)

the solution

"and the solution is identical to the original starting solution" <-- can someone explain which two solutions are "identical"? --JWSchmidt (talk) 02:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

My guess is it should be something like "the solution is identical to the solvent" but I'm not sure what the point was supposed to be. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:57, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I have removed this unsourced non-fact. There is no chemical difference between a highly potentized homeopathic remedy and plain water (or water+alcohol), this isn't really in dispute, but to say they are identical is not the same. —Whig (talk) 04:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

But they are identical. — NRen2k5, 05:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the words "and succussion" from the sentence "Dilution often continues until none of the original substance remains". The preceding sentence already states that succussion is carried out after each dilution, and succussion is not really relevant to this sentence; including it could even give the impression that it is thought that the succussion is somehow partly responsible for the removal of the original substance (the sentence "succussion often continues until none of the original substance remains" would not make sense). The lead is quite long enough already without this sort of dilution with extra words. Brunton (talk) 06:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

They are not identical in terms of their information. We do not have to argue this point here, as there is no basis for claiming in the article that they are identical other than chemically. —Whig (talk) 08:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Your “information” has not been proved to have any effect in the body’s response to the “remedy”. The idea that it does is a fringe hypothesis that has practically no basis in reality; more of an excuse the homoeopathic community came up with to hand-wave away their constant failure to prove their remedies have any effect whatsoever. — NRen2k5, 09:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

While there is no reliably replicated research that indicates that they are different "in terms of their information", I don't see any point in including the disputed wording in the lead. The statement that "dilution often continues until none of the original substance remains" is making essentially the same point, and is perfectly adequate as far as the lead is concerned. Brunton (talk) 09:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

True; I should probably concentrate more on edits made to the article than trying to talk some sense into this editor. — NRen2k5, 09:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Citizendium porting

Recently {{WikiProject Citizendium Porting}} was added to a boatload of articles. A couple of alt-medicine articles were in the list, and I reviewed the corresponding Citizendium articles and found them rife with POV. It appears that the Citizendium philosophy is to describe chiropractic and homeopathy almost entirely from the point of view of chiropractors and homeopaths, and to relegate mainstream opinion into a relatively small criticism section. I therefore have marked those two Citizendium articles as being unreliable from a Misplaced Pages point of view, due to their POV, by adding a comment here and to the Chiropractic talk page.

By the way, the talk-page banner here is huge. Any objection to trimming it down a bit, e.g., by starting off banners in their compressed version? Eubulides (talk) 17:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

"unreliable from a Misplaced Pages point of view" <-- Can you explain what this means? Doesn't reliability, within Misplaced Pages, imply that article contents can be traced back to reliable sources? The important question is, does the Citizendium article include information about homeopathy that should also be here in Misplaced Pages. --JWSchmidt (talk) 20:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

"written by Dana Ullman" who is "homeopathy's foremost spokesman" and currently banned here is partly why. For other reasons see WP:NPOV (particularly UNDUE), WP:FRINGE, and WP:TRUTH and attempt to apply them what is written there. Verbal chat 20:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Citizendium article has its shortcomings (the Misplaced Pages article has shortcomings too). But there's some stuff in there that could be worth importing here. These include things like what happens during a typical homeopathic consultation. A potential problem is that there are almost no references in that section so it could be a challenge to bring that material in line with Misplaced Pages's standards on referencing.

In general I'd like to see more cross-pollination between Misplaced Pages and Citizendium. Participants in each project often view the other in an adversarial way, which is unfortunate. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Dana Ullman is a major contributor to Citizendium’s homoeopathy article? Wow. Just wow. That isn’t just damning for the article, it reflects poorly on the entire project. — NRen2k5, 00:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Opening sentence (again)

With the clause about Hahnemann's original propounding of homoeopathy moved from the end of the sentence (I agree that moving the clause like this makes the sentence read better, BTW), I think historical info is getting confused with the basic definition of homoeopathy that the sentence is intended to provide. Surely it should just say that the remedies are thought (i.e. by homoeopaths generally) to cause the symptoms they are used to treat, rather than that they were thought by Hahnemann to cause the symptoms? I've changed it back - I hope nobody objects. Brunton (talk) 15:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Here is the relevant series of edits (5 total, none particularly large). I think the changes are fine and make it slightly clearer. It's certainly true that homeopathic remedies are "thought to cause effects similar to the symptoms presented" by more people than just ole Sammy H, so it doesn't make sense to limit this opinion to the founder. — Scientizzle 15:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty with "are thought to" is twofold. Firstly, that no reference can tell us what "homoeopaths generally" think: They are individuals that think different things. The lead should summarize the text in the body of the article, and the relevant, referenced paragraph on the "law of similars" speaks to what Hahneman thought. The lead should reflect that. In the alternative, the "law of similars" para could have additional references as to the official positions of various national or trans-national Colleges of Homeopathy on the subject. Secondly, that without saying who thinks the thought we create the mistaken impression that it is a broadly accepted position rather than being clear that it is at best regarded as fringe science and more often seen as pseudo-scientific claptrap unsupported in evidence-based medicine. LeadSongDog come howl 16:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Every single dictionary definition I can find uses the smaller/larger doses bit. Thus we don't need to attribute it to any individual or group. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Not the point. The lead should reflect the text.LeadSongDog come howl 17:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

This argument makes no sense. If the body text doesn't mention a blatantly obvious fact explicitly, then when someone starts wikilawyering to remove it from the lead we change the body, not the lead. If you are worried that "are thought" can be expanded – incorrectly – as "by science", then you should say so, so that we can find a formulation that works for you. 20:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(The anon IP above was promptly removed by Hans Adler) Who is wikilawyering? I believed that I was quite clear about that in my 16:33 but SBHB's 16:38 caused me to question that belief so I simplified it in my 17:28 post. I'll try the other tack and be more verbose then. This edit by Brunton reversed my previous edit to align the lead with the body text. I'm quite content to leave the attribution of the thought in the body text to Hahneman, who at least showed some originality. If someone wants to change the body text to a more current attribution and brings suitable references, that could also work. But in either case the lead should reflect the body text. Right now it doesn't. LeadSongDog come howl 21:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(I meant to replace my IP with my name, not remove it, as my edit summary should have told you. The anonymous edit happened after I had to switch to the secure server since the normal one became inaccessible.) Insistence that we need a source saying that all homeopaths think X in order to get an acceptable formulation looks like wikilawyering to me unless you have any indication that there is even a single homeopath who doesn't believe X, when no doubt most homeopathic sources simply state X as a fact and the few if any that don't state X as discovered or at least believed by Hahnemann with an implicit implication that it's true. Hans Adler 00:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

(Right, I guessed that, but didn't know it. The servers are up again, I understand.:-) We're not writing for "most homeopaths" but a general reader. There's no reason to feed them Hahneman's doctrine as if it were universally accepted truth, which it certainly is not. Nor is there any reason to make statements in the lead that aren't supported in the body. This isn't an obscure or subtle point. My simple two word edit to the lead corrected the problem, but Brunton reverted it, leaving the problem unsolved.LeadSongDog come howl 02:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Repertory and Materia Medica

Currently there’s a homeopathic Materia Medica article and a homeopathic repertory article, both stubs.

I realize it isn’t quite on-topic for this page, but this is the best place I could think of to bring this up, seeing as neither page seems to have gotten much attention in months.

Should we be doing something about them, like a merge or deletions? — NRen2k5, 04:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I would support the merging of those two articles. I wasn't aware of the repertory one. Verbal chat 22:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Merge them. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Baby Gloria references, Homeopathy and JWSchmidt/DrJ talk thread

A conversation has been started on the BLP Noticeboard which is relevant to this article and the use of WP:RS in support of the statement in the article that following homeopathy to exclusion of conventional medicine has lead to deaths (I'm too tired to check the exact wording, apologies). This follows from JWSchmitd's mentoring of banned user DrJ, Avathaar‎ (talk · contribs) and a long thread on Avathaar‎'s talk in which JWSchmidt claims the sources shouldn't be used for WP:BLP reasons. Verbal chat 22:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

vomit and feces

The article says:

Some homeopaths suggest that vaccines be replaced with homeopathically diluted "nosodes", created from dilutions of biological agents – including material such as vomit, feces or infected human tissues. While Hahnemann was opposed to such preparations, modern homeopaths often use them although there is no evidence to indicate they have any beneficial effects.

Can someone provide quotes from these sources that include their discussion of vomit and feces and which modern homeopaths often use them? --JWSchmidt (talk) 04:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't have access to those specific sources.

Nosodes are generally defined as remedies made from diseased biological material. See for example page 263 of Owen, Leckridge, & Fisher Principles and Practice of Homeopathy, which mentions "bowel nosodes" isolated from stool cultures. See also page 178 of Kayne & Caldwell's Homeopathic pharmacy which also talks about "bowel nosodes", describing them as "an important subgroup of the nosodes" (pp. 177-178 also describe nosodes made from, among other things, tubercular abscesses, "syphilitic material", and pus). Here is a description of a malaria nosode made from "decayed vegetable matter" from a marsh. Here's a remedy made from dog faeces on sale from a major homoeopathic pharmacy. I haven't yet found anything that specifically mentions vomit (although I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some homoeopath somewhere had made such a remedy, given the provings I've seen of, for example, antimatter, swan feathers and condoms), so perhaps this should be removed.

Unless it can be established that the sources already used mention vomit and faeces, I would suggest saying that they are made from diseased biological material and use Owen, Leckridge, & Fisher p. 263 as a source for this. Brunton (talk) 08:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the condom a fertility treatment? I think those well establish the feces bit. I'll see if I can access the others later. Verbal chat 09:07, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

From the overview: "One group of symptoms are grouped around the idea of containment and restriction, of being enclosed. Another group, probably the largest, are about barriers, disconnection and separation. The last group are concerned with the need for artificial barriers because the natural ones are weak or absent." As for whether we've established that faeces are used to prepare nosodes: note that the sources I cited say the "bowel nosodes" are prepared from stool cultures rather than the faeces themselves. The "excrementum can." is just a regular homoeopathic remedy rather than a nosode. Brunton (talk) 11:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's an article stating that "nosodes may be prepared from pus, diseased tissue such as a cancerous growth, the stool (these are termed bowel nosodes), or the pathogenic organism itself, such as bacilli from sputum." Still no vomit. Brunton (talk) 07:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a RS. Why not just replace the current disputed wording with that long list and source it with that reference? Problem solved. If anyone later finds an easily accessible source that lists vomit, then they can add it. It looks like you've got the solution in your hand. Go for it. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Done - I've also tidied up a little, removed a couple of repetitions of dilution as this is covered adequately in the rest of the article, and removed a wikilink to "nosode" which just redirected back to the homeopathy article. Brunton (talk) 11:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

From vomit? I can understand getting bacteria from feces (stool culture), but from vomit? I'll be damned if someone finds a source listing a remedy made from vomit :P --Enric Naval (talk) 07:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but you're assuming there has to be some logic to this. What about remedies made from moonlight? What logic is there in that? As far as vomit goes, we do (or did) have a source or two, but because someone who didn't have access to them objected, and we couldn't easily verify if the source really did back up the wording, a new source was found that did back up the feces part and listed several other things used to make nosodes. I think this thread is pretty much finished. Can we mark it as resolved and move on? Brangifer (talk) 13:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

"do (or did) have a source or two" <-- I doubt it. Those two sources were for the following sentence and there is no good reason to assume that they said anything about vomit. The sentence under discussion, the sentence mentioning "vomit", had no cited sources. --JWSchmidt (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I found a google books Materia Medica on nosodes that mentions two types of vomit derived things here, I think. Meletinum and Emphyeminum. Verbal chat 17:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

That's in an extract from an 1861 book, included in the source "for historical interest". If we were going to include vomit here (and frankly I don't think we should - see Short Brigade Harvester Boris's comment below) surely we'd need something a little more current. Brunton (talk) 21:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's not a big deal. Verbal chat 21:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I just don't think it's that big a deal. The overall point that bodily fluids are sometimes used in homeopathy can be adequately made by reference to pus, sputum and the like which are far more commonly mentioned in the literature. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I have found only anecdotes of the use of "vomitus" as a homeopathic remedy:. Lots of reliable sources list it in a string of things used in nosodes, but none describes its use. Fences&Windows 21:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Lead: pre and post dilution effects

Currently the LEAD's first sentence containst this phrase:

"... that treats patients with heavily diluted preparations which are thought to cause effects similar to the symptoms presented."

That isn't accurate. The object of treatment is to cure or ameliorate symptoms, not exacerbate them by causing "effects similar to the symptoms presented".

We have previously had a more accurate version that went something like this:

"... that treats patients with heavily diluted preparations made from substances that, in their undiluted (or much less diluted) form, cause effects similar to the symptoms presented."

There is nothing "thought to cause" about it in this case, since the original substances used in provings are actually intended to cause the symptoms. Currently we are blending things. The original, undiluted, substances and the final remedies are not the same thing, and they have very different effects. The original substances actually cause symptoms, and the final products/remedies produced after dilution and succussion/potentization are thought to cause some type of cure. (Of course no reliable research has shown any such thing. ;-)

I suggest we reinstate the previous wording. We have a whole section on provings, and leaving out mention of provings in the lead is a serious lack. I know that the current provings section uses ONE source to back up an idea about the use of heavily diluted substances in provings, but I question this. If the proving and the remedy are the same, then how can one induce "effects similar to the symptoms presented"? We need more sources that deal with this so we can show that while there might be some homeopaths who use ultradilute substances in provings, others do not, and thus follow Hahnemann's original method. I don't recall the details of this discussion that got us into this situation, but how could one source totally reverse the previous content? -- Brangifer (talk) 23:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the second version above is better, but should perhaps include the "thought", as often different "provings" prove that the same tincture "causes" opposites, such as constipation in one proving, but diarrhoea according to a different proving. Do we discuss this in the body? Rose Shapiro has a good section on this in her book "Suckers: How alternative medicine makes fools of us all". Verbal chat 18:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

We have a good source in the article supporting the statement that modern provings are carried out using the potentised remedies, not the undiluted substances. Brunton (talk) 21:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing problem: critics' "concerns" could use more sourcing

We have previously had this content:

"Critics of homeopathy have cited other concerns over homeopathic medicine, most seriously cases of patients of homeopathy failing to receive proper treatment for diseases that could have been easily diagnosed and managed with conventional medicine and the..."

Recently it was changed here. While I think the addition was excellent, the deletion of the reference to Dr. Phil Plait's Discovery magazine column means that we are now missing proper documentation for our content ("Critics of homeopathy have cited other concerns over homeopathic medicine,..."), and unsourced content should be deleted. Since the obvious solution is to source it, we need to restore it and find even more sources so this doesn't happen again. We shouldn't allow the ongoing disputes on User talk:Avathaar to cause us to cave in to the specious arguments used there.

To fix this problem, we could do something which I will propose here. (We can still retain the added source.)

There are numerous skeptical sources that state in various ways that reliance on homeopathy can kill or cause injury when it is used in place of proper treatment, and we could list several of them. In the case of the current wording, we are connecting such a criticism with an actual example. To strengthen this section while avoiding OR and SYNTH, we need more sources from critics which make this argument in connection with more cited cases. Right now we have Phil Plait, a very notable skeptic, making this criticism in connection with the Baby Gloria case. There are no doubt other skeptical sources that make the same connection. We can also use them, although his criticism is enough. Other cases than the Baby Gloria case could also be used as examples, and we could find skeptical sources that use this criticism in connection with those cases. Right now we are using one case (documented with a couple news reports) and citing one critical source as documentation for the skeptical position. That's good enough for me, but to satisfy the demands of editors who are believers in homeopathy, we could strengthen the section. What think ye? -- Brangifer (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathy and HIV

Here's another situation where critics express their concerns, this time about HIV:

• British scientists ask WHO to condemn homeopathy for diseases such as HIV. Clinics throughout Asia and sub-Saharan Africa offering ineffective remedies for serious illnesses, putting lives at risk, researchers say.

-- Brangifer (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathy and malaria

And yet another about malaria:

• Malaria & homeopathy

• Alternative malaria treatment may not work. July 14th, 2006 British health authorities are urging tourists not to rely on alternative treatment such as homeopathy to fight malaria.

-- Brangifer (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

The Guardian and Physorg/UPI sources are good. I see your point about the Plait material but have mixed feelings. We should use unassailable sources, and if the scientific perspective uses blogs (or blog-like) material then one can hardly object if the homeopaths want to use blogs too. Slippery slope and all that. There's also the BBC Newsnight story on malaria, which we already have cited.
You might also look at the Citizendium article for sources (both the disturbing "approved" version and the somewhat better Draft version). Don't dismiss the CZ article out of hand as there is some useful information there. Just be careful to separate the wheat from the chaff. There might even be some credible pro-homeopathy material in there -- remember, we're supposed to be writing a neutral article. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Alternatives to the PhysOrg source are the BBC pieces that it was based on and , related coverage. We shouldn't rely on PhysOrg, which does not provide reliable fact checking.LeadSongDog come howl 03:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The other sources are better. Here they are in another format:

Regarding malaria:

• Malaria advice 'risks lives', BBC Two, 13 July 2006

• Homeopathic practices 'risk lives', BBC News, 13 July 2006

• Alarm over alternative malaria remedies The Independent, 14 July 2006

• Homeopaths 'endangering lives' by offering malaria remedies, The Guardian, 14 July 2006

-- Brangifer (talk) 04:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) SBHB, don't dismiss blogs out of hand. RS expressly allows blogs in some situations, especially when they are the official internet version of a magazine or newspaper column. That's the case for Plait's column. RS policy doesn't completely forbid blogs, and we're going to have to use more and more blogs as RS as they are being used more and more as official websites for organizations, companies, and even politicians. Of course the replies to blogs aren't RS. Here's what WP:RS says:

• "Note that otherwise reliable news sources--for example, the website of a major news organization--that happens to publish in a "blog" style format for some or all of its content may be considered to be equally reliable as if it were published in a more "traditional" 20th-century format of a classic news story. However, the distinction between "opinion pieces" and news should be considered carefully."

and found here:

• "In the case of articles which chronicle a developing current event it is not a violation of Misplaced Pages policy to temporarily include links to blogs which contain contemporary opinion and observations about the event. A diverse mix is recommended, but the extent and selection of specific blogs is a matter of content to be determined by the editors of the article."

and of course:

• Misplaced Pages:Blogs as sources

As far as CZ goes, I don't dismiss it, but I am cautious considering the small editorial staff and articles basically written by one author from a proponent's POV (non-NPOV). It's still a good place to look for ideas and sourcing we might be missing.

We're supposed to write NPOV articles, which means they are filled with reliably sourced non-neutral content. The only one being neutral in this situation is Misplaced Pages itself. It doesn't take a position on the issue, and the article shouldn't make it appear that it does. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Suppression

Interesting statement in the comments on this recently added possible ref : "Thomas did not apply creams normally applied to children suffering from eczema because it is generally known that the disease is driven inward." I've seen this idea of orthodox treatments "driving disease inwards" or "suppressing" disease, and thus making the patient's condition worse, used as an argument against using orthodox medicine. If a good RS can be found for "suppression" being cited by mainstream homoeopaths or by homoeopathic organisations perhaps this should be included in the "ethical and safety issues" section. Brunton (talk) 01:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that could be used. It is an idea I have heard before, and not just from homeopaths. Many naturopaths and those who think like them (mixer chiropractors) believe this idea. It's a very, very old vitalistic-type idea. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've found several possible references. Here's a selection:

• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Qa21jitZy7AC&pg=PA4&dq=homeopathy+suppression&lr

• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=E1fVzLCmk5gC&pg=PA16&dq=suppression+homeopathy&lr

• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J7oestO-BnAC&pg=PA98&dq=suppression+homeopathy&lr

• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UZ72uQy385wC&pg=PA147&dq=allopathic+suppression

• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BNR1KGJXX9cC&pg=PA198&dq=homeopathy+suppression&lr

Note in particular that the first one states that the normal mode of action of "many conventional drugs" is "inhibiting or actually suppressing the disease, which ultimately pushes the disease deeper into the person, creating more serious and often chronic diseases that manifest themselves later". The second one states "homeopaths have observed that minor skin ailments suppressed with drugs give rise to asthma", which can, if "treated suppressively" then lead to "colitis, arthritis, heart disease etc." Brunton (talk) 12:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

http://www.minimum.com/reviews/science-homeopathy.htm is a good source: "Vithoulkas believes-rightly-that it is important for the practitioner of homoeopathy to have a sound grasp of pathology. This being so, it is a pity that his book should contain some rather startling medical statements.... Much more serious, especially in a book that may be read by many laymen, is the author's belief that when primary syphilis is treated by high doses of penicillin over a period of two weeks (p. 135-my italics) the patient will go on to develop secondary and tertiary syphilis with involve- ment of the central nervous system. This thoroughly irresponsible statement is no mere proof-reading error; it appears in the course of an argument designed to show that "allopathic drugging" is harmful and must be avoided. The unfortunate layman might well be misled by Vithoulkas' rhetoric into refusing orthodox treatment for his syphilis; can this really be what Vithoulkas intends?"

http://www.minimum.com/reviews/answer-science.htm - Vithoulkas replied, defending his claims of "suppression". George Vithoulkas is one of the leading homeopaths, that he advocates this nonsense is strong evidence that this quackery is widespread in the homeopathic community. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

profile of a homeopathic remedy

In the section Homeopathy#Provings it says, "A homeopathic proving is the method by which the profile of a homeopathic remedy is determined."
Is there something better than Profile (engineering) to link the word "profile" to? --JWSchmidt (talk) 03:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't see a relevant article that defines this term, so in its absence I've removed the link as it is clearly not helpful. There's talk of merging and improving the Repertory and Materia Medica articles - perhaps a definition of this term would be appropriate there. Brunton (talk) 10:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

index of symptoms

The article says, "a remedy is selected based on the index of symptoms", but a Google Scholar search for > "index of symptoms" and homeopathy < returns little. In contrast, there are many sources found when searching for > "totality of symptoms" and homeopathy < including The role of evidence in alternative medicine: contrasting biomedical and anthropological approaches which says: "The professional homeopaths prescribed on the totality of symptoms". I think the term "index" is used in its correct technical sense later in the article, but not in its first use in the article. Should the article be changed to say "a remedy is selected based on the totality of symptoms"? --JWSchmidt (talk) 03:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, totality of symptoms is the correct term. —Whig (talk) 06:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Redundant facts

11. Homeopathy is not a fringe belief at all. It is not fair to call it a fringe belief.

Homeopathy is a fringe practice by almost any quantitative measure:

• Homeopathy's share of the world drug market is 0.3%
• Money spent per person on medical items in the U.S. in 2004 was $5267 . About 1% of that amount – $54 per person – was spent on all herbals, including homeopathy.
• There were 315 professional homeopaths in the U.S. in 1993. Counting lay homeopaths (unlicensed), there were perhaps over 1000 compared with 884,000 regular physicians in the U.S. in 2006 (There were only 50-100 homeopaths in the US in the early 1970s. )

Even in India, where about 15-20% of medical professionals are homeopaths, homeopathy is 3rd or 4th behind regular medicine and ayurvedic medicine. In numerous European countries in the last few years, like the UK and Switzerland, government support for homeopathic treatments has been decreased as study after study have failed to show its efficacy.

The final point certainly makes sense... But the other two do not. In a world run by businesses, where drug companies and pharmaceuticals are on the same corporate level as energy and tobacco giants, of course the business that runs by the ideal of "Sell sell sell", and that is backed by the industries giants is going to have more sales. They sell products which alleviate symptoms for a few hours so that you go buy more, and they turn a bigger profit. This is a fundamental principal of business, so to say that they are not only out to turn a profit is turning a blind eye to the reality of our world. To claim something as pseudoscience based on how well they market their products is pathetic. All this shows is the direction the market faces, which is obviously towards the money. So many factors could attribute to these facts, including that western medicine and surgery can cost thousands of dollars, while homeopathic medicine is generally inexpensive. This is not business, it's science! -- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 22:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Rephrase please

"Scientific tests run by both the BBC's Horizon and ABC's 20/20 programs were unable to differentiate homeopathic dilutions from water, even when using tests suggested by homeopaths themselves." Was there a consensus on the part of the homeopathic community that these tests were appropriate, well designed and properly carried out? If only one or two homeopaths thought that these were proper tests then they should be identified and it should not be implied that most or even any other homeopath might have approved. Also, what made these tests "scientific"? —Whig (talk) 00:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Why restrict this "consensus" to "the homeopathic community"? Why would they, and not the general scientific community, be appropriate to decide whether scientific tests are well designed and appropriately carried out? The tests were merely to detect a difference between homoeopathic dilutions and water, and didn't involve the application of any specifically homeopathic principles or practices, other than those involved in preparing the diluted remedies themselves. Brunton (talk) 08:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

On the one hand, it's a stretch to think that the reader would assume "homeopaths" means "every homeopath who was alive at the time." On the other, if we can identify the individuals as "homeopaths John Doe, Mary Smith, and Joe Bloggs" it would be reasonable to do so. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No such implication was made. That’s an inference on your part, and a faulty one at that. But I do agree that the homoeopaths who suggested the tests should be identified. — NRen2k5, 22:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The BBC's and ABC's "television science" was simply "junk science." Both tv shows sought to replicate the work of Professor M. Ennis, but she was not shown the precise protocol used until over a year after the BBC study was aired and just before the ABC study was conducted. She asserts that this "study" was NOT hers. The BBC has acknowledged this, and ABC carefully avoided saying that their study was a replication of the Ennis study, even though they used her as a consultant for the study (they did this as a requirement for my participation on air, though the 20/20 producer, Mark Golden, said that he only promised to consult with Ennis, not to do what she said or to even correctly replicate her work. To see Ennis' email on this subject, go to: http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/view,55 -- I realize that website is my own and is therefore not an appropriate RS for wikipedia...but for those of us who are wanting the truth about things, this article and others at http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/by_category.jsp?id=37 will provide insight. DanaUllman 03:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC) 03:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

References

Please keep this section at the bottom. TO ADD A NEW SECTION, just click the EDIT link at the right and add the new section ABOVE this one. Then copy the heading into the edit summary box.

1. Pray WS (1992), "A challenge to the credibility of homeopathy", Am J Pain Management (2): 63–71
2. English J (1992), "The issue of immunization", Br Homeopath J, 81 (4): 161–3, doi:10.1016/S0007-0785(05)80171-1
3. Case of Baby Gloria, who died in 2002:
   • Homeopath Thomas Sam guilty of daughter Gloria's death, The Daily Telegraph, June 5, 2009
   • Homeopathy kills, Phil Plait, Discover Magazine, June 5, 2009
4. "Parents guilty of manslaughter over daughter's eczema death", The Canberra Times, June 5, 2009

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