Misplaced Pages

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Statement by involved Tiptoety

I would like to start by saying that it is truly unfortunate that it has come to this, but I feel that all other methods of communication and dispute resolution has failed.

Ryulong has been a active administrator on Misplaced Pages, and during his time here has helped the project significantly. Unfortunately, he has failed to take constructive criticism from the community at large and has continued to use his administrative tools in a disruptive and at times abusive way. While the second request for comment was in progress, Ryulong has continued to be abrasive, and threatens to use his tools against a user whom he is involved in a dispute with (the founding reason the RfC was filed). I urge the committee to look at all the diffs provided in the second RfC to completely understand the long term patter of disruption.

I would also like to note that in opening the second RfC I hoped that Ryulong would change his behavior and gave him many opportunities, but judging by his most recent actions he has not taken them. I would also like to note that I added the ANI diff to the above list of prior attempts at dispute resolution.

Further comment / reply to Hersfold

I am going to have to disagree with you here Hersfold, there are more issues than just that one block threat that occurred during the second RfC including this block which is a first time block of one week, on a IP editor whom is editing the same subjects as Ryulong. I would also like to not some other questionable rollbacks that were preformed during the RfC, a large removal of non-vandalism content, another removal of non-vandalism content, a rollback of a IP whom made some wikimark up edits (non-vandalism), and rolling back a clearly good faith edit. He also recently threatened to block an IP whom was changing the heading colors on a article that he edits on a regular basis. Tiptoety 14:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Vassyana and Coren

First let me start by saying that the result of the RfC was to come here as the issues being addressed were not being fixed, so there is really no "evidence" of abuse since the RfC...but there is evidence of it during the RfC (or after it was filed). I would also like to note that the RfC was doomed from the start as stated that he was not willing to change his actions. In regards to your request for evidence of further issues during or after the RfC I ask you to look at the diffs provided in the section above (the reply to Hersfold). Tiptoety 19:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Are you ready for IPv6?

He is no longer open to recall, so that point is moot. If you wish to know why, you can ask him but I am not sure it is relevant. Tiptoety 04:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Jayvdb

Yes from the 16th to the 17th Ryulong engaged in a edit war (page history). Also all those diffs cited in the above section directed towards Hersfold are all after the RfC were filled. Please see that section, as I have also asked in multiple other sections. Thanks, Tiptoety 03:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment from Master&Expert

I am ambivalent towards Ryulong and his admin work. On the one hand, he is an all-around excellent maintenance worker which the site highly values. But on the other, I have found some of his comments to have a very "as an admin my judgment is naturally sound" feel to them. Master&Expert (Talk) 04:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Statement from Majorly

Ryulong has been an admin since early 2007. If I hadn't known this, I would have assumed he was relatively inexperienced, due to the number of abusive and other problematic actions he has done with admin rights. Lots of significant concerns were raised on his successful RFA, that passed with an unusually low percentage. Ryulong says he is trying to work on issues raised from the RFCs. This is not acceptable, when one has never really been suited for adminship. Bluntly, if he had never been an admin, and was to request now, he'd fail dismally. The problem here is that there has been a significant problem for a long, long time. Admins need to always have trust and respect from the community, and Ryulong lacks both these things, and has done for a while. His continuation as an admin is generally a net negative in my opinion. We should refrain from giving people, especially admins, chance after chance after chance to "work on issues" and to "redeem themselves". Why? Because there should never be any issues to work on or to redeem.

Statement from Rocksanddirt

Hersfolds statements really concern me. If Ryulong has been getting advice from others, and still shows a pattern of abusive use of tools, such that experienced users feel the need to do something; I think there is something for the committee to review. After the first RfC on Ryulong, he seemed to take a lot of the communities concerns to heart. At that one, there were a number of other admins, who were very dismissive of the attempt to reign in one of their own. It was only after numerous users pointed to specific problems, and requested not deadmining (though some did), but simply a change in his behavior that obstruction slowed and the concerns could be clearly presented to Ryulong. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Statement by involved Are you ready for IPv6?

Okay I spotted this recently. I've not dealt with Ryulong that I can remember of myself but in his 3rd RFA which he passed from that to become administrator http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ryulong he said he would be open for recall.

Here's a quote:

---

---

Basically, arbitrations are very time consuming and lengthy. It often has people getting all angry at each other and results in some people getting punished, sanctioned, etc. The administrators open to recall is a there to make things more efficient. Why not just use that to handle things instead? I think it would save a lot of time. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 02:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Ooops I typed the URL wrong. I went to the first RFA and not the third. The third was http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ryulong_3 and the quote I was looking for was

---

---

Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 03:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

I want to point out a few things before this is opened/rejected/whatever; comprising of a note, an unusual comment/critique, and another comment.

The RfC was closed by Tiptoety, and I added it to the archives with the understanding that it may be reopened only immediately following a decline of this request - should arbitrators deem it necessary opening the case, then there's no justification to turn back.

Beyond this, there's really only one other thing I believe I've commented on with respect to this - that Mythdon should voluntarily agree to stop interacting with or commenting on Ryulong. There was general agreement with this view by others, as suggested on the RfC's talk page. All that said, courtesy of what I call "modern technology" with respect to email access, when certain users, even if they are arbitrators, join forces with grudge-holders in allowing the needless escalation of matters (as opposed to dissolving them by joining the wider community chorus that says '...back off; find a more productive hobby that isn't so....'), I suppose it'd be too much to expect a decent understanding or feeling of care with respect to this sensitive issue. The justification for dissolving the issue and letting other issues arise without interference, far outweighs the justification for refusing to do so (which by contrast, has the effect of a nasty toxic chemical reaction of sorts - it'd be sad to see it blow up in anyones face). But I digress, and note the uneasy distinction (if any) between "a very hypothetical scenario" and "reality".

With the exception of this issue concerning interacting/commenting, the only other thing worth pointing out is two broad categories which should make 'what the decision ought to be' quite clear...but then again, I myself don't have a view on this dispute. :) Sometimes an RfC needs to move straight to arbitration, even where opened for a short time. But it is sometimes important to keep an RfC open, or to wait after an RfC is closed - the subject may make genuine (and I really do mean genuine) attempts to improve, yet may at any or all times, still put up fronts as if he/she will do little to nothing. That's all I have to say. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Statement by CUTKD (uninvolved)

This Request for Arbitration was long overdue. Whilst I respect much of the good work Ryulong has performed, his attitude for too long has been nothing short of a disgrace. The sheer arrogance and rudeness he has displayed in some of his comments, and his total contempt for other users "beneath" him lead me to feel that nothing short of a total revocation of his full administrator rights will be sufficient. Hopefully, such sanctions might enforce a more humbling attitude, and should such action prove to be effective, I would be all for a reinstatement once noticeable changes are observed. C.U.T.K.D 09:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Mythdon

I am requesting clarification for the wording of the terms of my soon-to-be mentorship.

In term B of "Mythdon restricted and placed under mentorship", it states "Mythdon should consult and take guidance from the mentor when issues arise concerning their editing or behavior". I am confused as to who this is referring to. The confusion is is that the word "their" refers to multiple other people, but it's clear that in the other restriction(s), the word discusses me as evidenced by their wording. However, I am not certain as to what the word means in this term (term B). Here's the question: Does "their" in term B refer to issues regarding my editing/behavior or other editors editing/behavior?

I am also asking for clarification on the wording of term C. It states "During mentorship, Mythdon is restricted from making edits such as unnecessary questions and abusive warnings to users' talk pages if not approved by their mentor" - In regards to "abusive warnings", does this go for all warnings, or does it simply go for warnings (i.e. my past warnings to admins/rollbackers about their use of rollback) that were judged to be abusive? The word "abusive" raises questions, and did raise a similar questions here, but that doesn't clarify my question. As an unrelated note, while my next statement here would not deal with something that needs any clarification, if anyone ever asks, as a result of arbitrator FayssalF's statement "After all, you'll be consulting with him before making any edit to anyone's talk page", besides my own talk page, I have made absolutely zero edits to user talk namespace since the closure of the case.

While you may find this request for clarification a bit ridiculous, please seriously consider clarifying.

If any other editor has additional questions regarding this or any other remedy, please do so. It may very well clarify something that I thought was some other way.

No, I have not found or attempted to find a mentor yet, in case an arbitrator asks me. If I do get assigned a mentor (which will most certainly likely happen), and if I edit during the mentorship, these are things I need to know before any interpretations are made. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Note by Mythdon

I would like to remind Risker and Newyorkbrad that before acting as arbitrators in this request, that they recused themselves from the relevant case voluntarily. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Additional questions by Mythdon

In term D, it states:

Mythdon shall not comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about Ryulong on any page in Misplaced Pages until a mentor is appointed and may only comment after the appointment with his mentor's prior approval.

While this term only covers comments about the user, I am unsure as to whether comments to the user apply as well. Does this also apply to interactions? I believe so. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 21:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

After the mentors appointment, in regards to "...may only comment after the appointment with his mentor's prior approval.", would this "approval" approve of all future comments to/about Ryulong without further approvals or would I have to gain approval for every single comment? My suspicions are leaning towards "...approval for every single comment". —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 21:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-statement by Stifle

Regarding the first point, I hate to say it, but I told you so. :)

As you were. Stifle (talk) 10:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• Recused - Tiptoety 06:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Recused - MBisanz 08:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Recused - Hersfold 22:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Regarding clause (b), "their" refers to your (Mythdon's) editing; see singular they.
• Regarding clause (c), if you (Mythdon) are uncertain whether an intended warning is abusive, you are to consult your mentor. The onus to avoid borderline behavior is on you at this point. Kirill  12:54, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Regarding clause (d): yes, you are restricted in terms of making any comment to Ryulong as well as making any comment about Ryulong. Kirill  01:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
• I wasn't planning on looking at this, let alone commenting on it, but Mythdon is correct that I had recused in the original case, so I will formally recuse from this as well. Risker (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Recused. (Don't worry, I wouldn't have forgotten.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Kirill succinctly makes the point. --Vassyana (talk) 01:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Kirill's comments. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Also concur with Kirill.  Roger Davies 16:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Kirill as well. Wizardman 19:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
• Kirill phrases it well. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:04, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
• In regards to the last question raised by Mythodon, that Kirill has not answered, the mentor will be phrasing the approval in a manner that they see fit. They may make broad or narrow approvals, or they may require that you seek permission for every single comment. The requirement of this remedy is that there is prior approval of the edits you make. John Vandenberg 06:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Ryulong (2)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Mythdon

I have additional questions regarding my mentorship ruling.

In regards to term A, it says:

Mythdon is urged to find a mentor within a month of the closure of this case, and is free to get a mentor of his/her choice. Mythdon is directed to inform the Committee once the mentor is selected. In case no mentor is found within 1 month, Mythdon will be assigned a mentor by ArbCom;

In the recently closed Mattisse case, there is ruling of mentorship there as well stating that Matissee shall be assigned mentors by the committee within 15 days of that decision. But, also, unlike mine, there is a ruling here that directs Mattisse not to edit Misplaced Pages if the "plan" is not accomplished within the 15 day period without Committee permission. Because of that, I have this question; Since my month long time limit to find a mentor is up (it's been up since approximately June 24), am I prohibited from editing Misplaced Pages at all until the appointment or am I just prohibited from making edits that require the mentor approval?

In regards to term B, it says:

Mythdon should consult and take guidance from the mentor when issues arise concerning their editing or behavior. Inability to work constructively with a mentor may be a sign that a user has continued difficulty in collaborative editing and that stronger sanctions are required; successful editing during the mentorship may demonstrate that the opposite is true;

I am having a hard time understanding the beginning sentence of that term "Mythdon should consult and take guidance from the mentor when issues arise concerning their editing or behavior". I do not know what is being meant by "consult". Does it mean "consult your mentor when you're unsure of whether an edit is legitimate?" - My suspicion is "yes".

Since I'm not 100% sure as of this moment, I need further clarification on this case ruling. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Vassyana

In response to: "Why have you not acquired a mentor? Have you had difficulty finding someone to agree? Were you unsure of where to look or how to approach the matter?" - To answer these first three questions, I'll respond to those all in the same answer; I intentionally have not found a mentor yet. The first reason is because I don't feel like doing so, and the other is because I'm not interested in having a mentor.

In response to: "...what areas do you feel you need the most guidance in?" - I don't feel like I need any guidance in any area. I feel that I've worked functional enough in the areas I've worked in before the remedy was put in place. I don't think I need any guidance from a mentor.

In response to: "What sort of advice would be most helpful for you?" - I don't think I need any advice. I think that I know how, what, where, and when to do something without advice from a mentor. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Additional question(s) from Mythdon

In regards to term D "Mythdon shall not comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about Ryulong on any page in Misplaced Pages until a mentor is appointed and may only comment after the appointment with his mentor's prior approval.", am I allowed to revert any post Ryulong makes on my talk page? Since the case, I have either reverted or ignored any post he's made on my talk page, but I think it's about time this gets clarified.

During the mentorship, can the committee pass a motion to place a site ban on me for a period of time through a simple majority vote if the committee has any reason to believe it is the only approach? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Ryulong

The answers to your question is here. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments/questions regarding motions

In response to the motion.

In response to; "This includes, but is not limited to, incivility, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution." - Could an arbitrator please clarify why "incivility" is part of this probation? I don't engage in incivility.

In response to; "Any uninvolved administrator may utilize discretionary sanctions, including topic bans and blocks, to enforce this probation." - I'm not really planning on editing the pages during the probation. After all, since before the mentorship remedy finished voting, I have been making plans not to edit Misplaced Pages during the one year period. If this probation motion doesn't pass, and if a mentor is appointed, I will consider not editing for the period. I do not feel that I should edit if such a situation were to occur. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

In second response to; "This includes, but is not limited to, incivility, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution." - And what else? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, I would to ask what the committee will do with term (C); "During mentorship, Mythdon is restricted from making edits such as unnecessary questions and abusive warnings to users' talk pages if not approved by their mentor. The mentor will be asked to assist them in understanding community practice to a sufficient level that continued sanctions will not be necessary." - What will happen to this with the motion? Will I still be prohibited from making these edits? What will happen? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What would count as "abusive warnings to users' talk pages"? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 17:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

One warning should be enough. More than that would be counted as abusive. The rest should be dealt with by admins. I hope this helps. -- FayssalF - 19:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

So in other words, I may still post rollback warnings, but only one per user? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Could you please clarify what the motion means by "better communication skills"? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 18:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Everything related to this issue has been discussed in depth at the Arbitration case in question. -- FayssalF - 19:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Where? How? By who? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You should be very familiar with the decision of the case which involved you --> Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong#Mythdon strongly urged. -- FayssalF - 20:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess (B) would be replaced with your motion should it pass. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

No. What would be replaced with the motion is "Mythdon restricted and placed under mentorship" -a remedy which doesn't mention communication at all. I am also noting here that you are turning a blind eye to A) "To take his specific concerns about the verifiability of the articles to a wider venue such as Misplaced Pages:Village Pump, other sister WikiProjects or the Verifiability policy talk page itself and consult his views with others. He is then advised to report the views of others to WikiProject Tokusatsu for discussions". Here you are again into it without making any effort whatsoever to take your issue to the broader community. Please consider this a formal warning that any further persistence in your ideas and stances (ignoring discussing them with the wider community) which were dealt with by the arbitration case will lead to harsher measures. -- FayssalF - 20:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I know the mentorship will be terminated with this. The discussion you link . Even if the discussion were to end? Would dispute resolution still be necessary, or just move on? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Look Mythdon. We are here to discuss and clarify your mentorship. The rest of the decision doesn't change. What has to change is your approach and I don't believe that is negotiable. Your approach, documented by the arbitration case and the link we are discussing here, has been wrong. Change your habits and move on. What you've just done is forget about the Tomkasu articles and targetted other sets of articles. The habits are the same; nothing changed at all. We are not playing so don't tell me that the discussion will be ended. Forget about your past problems. Failing to do that would lead to harsher measures. -- FayssalF - 20:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I did not say that the discussion ended. All I said was that a few comments were made to the discussion since then, and asked that if the discussion were to end, would dispute resolution still be necessary? It's a simple question. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 20:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The discussion itself is part of the dispute resolution process. If the discussion at your user talk page were to end and still believe the dispute is still not resolved then you should pursue mediation. Again, and according to the said discussion, you seem to be taking a firm and not so flexible approach in total denial of the arbitration case remedy (see point A above). All what I am seeing there is you being back at your old habits and I don't believe mediation would help out if you don't forget about those habits which were addressed at the arbitration case. I hope this is clear. -- FayssalF - 22:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

First let me start by saying something a bit unrelated. Back in May 2009, I started this discussion at the Village Pump as I felt it would do what the ruling wanted me to do, and people voiced their views in the Village Pump. However, it wasn't until a month later that I notified WikiProject Tokusatsu of the discussion, with the discussion already archived by the time of the notification. In the Village Pump discussion, I make no reference to the case remedies, but I do bring up the remedy in the notification. That's all I'm going to say again for the moment. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Ryulong's "Addendum #2"

In response to this addendum.

First let me respond to: "I asked him in the past if he even watched the shows, and he replied that he did not" - Only twice have I made any reference to whether or not I've watched the shows. Here's the first example when I say "Well, I haven't seen the show either" as part of the statement in that diff. "The show" refers to Power Rangers: RPM in this statement. Secondly, in February 2009, Ryulong asked me if I watched Power Rangers: Mystic Force to make a judgment of a merge proposal and I told him that I did.

More responses may come soon. Thanks. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In response to "Seeing as he is not bringing his issues to the attention of WP:TOKU, banning him from editing these pages will be a much more effective way to curb his behavior" - The reason I haven't done this lately is due to mentorship term (D); "Mythdon shall not comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about Ryulong on any page in Misplaced Pages until a mentor is appointed and may only comment after the appointment with his mentor's prior approval.". This restriction only mentions commenting about, but former arbitrator Kirill Lokshin clarified in June 2009 that I was also restricted from making any comment to Ryulong as well, clarification here. At WT:TOKU and its archives of 2008, you'll see many comments of Ryulong replying to more than 95% of my comments on talk pages. Please take the May 24, 2009-onward comments to me more seriously. Also, take a look at Talk:Power Rangers, where Ryulong responds to a post I make after May 24, 2009 (see here). —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Ryulong

I've only had a few things to say to Mythdon since the close of the case on his user talk. The first one was removed without comment, the second and third were removed referring to the arbitration proceedings. I know that he's restricted from commenting about me but I really doubt he's restricted from communicating with me entirely. There is no way he and I can constructively contribute in the same topic area if he continues to ignore my statements after I have to clean up after him being overly strict with content policies, simply being entirely unknowledgable in the topic area, or treating aspects of the project more bureaucratically than they should be.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Addendum

I would like the arbitration committee to be aware of this discussion on Mythdon's user talk with three other users concerning his strict application and reading of various policies. It seems that he has moved onto other topic areas with his requests for every sentence to be referenced and whatever cannot be referenced (sans common sense or other pages) should be deleted.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Addendum #2

In the past several hours after seeing this edit, I've seen Mythdon, as usual, removing words, statements, or entire paragraphs of content on Power Rangers and other related pages without bringing anything up for discussion. As I cannot (apparently) leave him any sort of message concerning issues I have with his editing practices, I've been advised to append my statement here. Diffs are included below (in no particular order).

Everything in these are supported by the fictional media themselves. I asked him in the past if he even watched the shows, and he replied that he did not. I cannot understand why he continues to edit in this topic area if he does not even bother to follow the media in any form. He cannot contribute constructively in this topic area (anything under the umbrella of WP:TOKU), and frankly a topic ban would be much more worthwhile (in my opinion) rather than sticking him under various new restrictions that he will take the verbatim reading, as has shown in his knowledge of various Misplaced Pages policies. I understand the pages are not perfect, but there's no way that Mythdon has ever improved them.

Long before the arbitration case was filed, I've wanted to get Mythdon banned from the topic area, but I could never initiate the ban (or discussion) because of my deep involvement in dealing with Mythdon. Seeing as he is not bringing his issues to the attention of WP:TOKU, banning him from editing these pages will be a much more effective way to curb his behavior.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Addendum #3

Really? I want a one sentence answer from him and he won't do anything because of how he's interpreting the restrictions placed on him.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

And I won't get an answer. Even when I didn't even put the question on the page, he undid my null edit. This is getting fucking ridiculous.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry, now it is fucking ridiculous.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused from the underlying case (albeit not for reasons relating to Mythdon), so I'll leave it to someone else to answer Mythdon's questions. But if I may make a suggestion, would a non-recused arbitrator volunteer to communicate directly with Mythdon to address these issues. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
• In lieu of a motion or indication to the contrary, I would expect you to be free to edit for the time being. However, I would recommend staying as far away from controversy as possible and walking away if you find yourself in a conflict. That said, I have a couple of questions. Why have you not acquired a mentor? Have you had difficulty finding someone to agree? Were you unsure of where to look or how to approach the matter? On another aspect, what areas do you feel you need the most guidance in? What sort of advice would be most helpful for you? Answering these questions will help us move forward from this point and arrange a mentoring relationship for you. --Vassyana (talk) 20:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• With regret in response to the above, in the spirit of Fayssal's comments below, I am proposing a motion to replace the mentorship arrangement. It is clear that Mythdon will not work collaboratively with a mentor. --Vassyana (talk) 16:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

• Recused also from the underlying case, but I will ask the clerks to (a) link to the correct case in the title please, and (b) ensure that Ryulong is notified of this request. In view of this interaction, some further discussion may be appropriate here. Risker (talk) 20:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
• Following the answer(s) above by Mythdon to Vassyana's questions, I'll be asking my colleague arbitrators to pass a new motion in which Mythdon will be assigned a mentor by ArbCom. The answer(s) are/is a sign that Mythdon is not here to work collaboratively according to Misplaced Pages rules, guidelines and ArbCom's rulings. It appears that Mythdon has learned little from the ArbCom case. -- FayssalF - 21:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion 1

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong#Mythdon restricted and placed under mentorship is vacated and replaced with the following:

Mythdon is placed under conduct probabtion

Mythdon is placed under conduct probation for one year, in relation to WikiProject Tokusatsu and Ryulong, broadly construed. This includes, but is not limited to, incivility, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution.

Conduct probation enforcement

Any uninvolved administrator may utilize discretionary sanctions, including topic bans and blocks, to enforce this probation. Acting administrators are encouraged to apply sanctions tailored to the circumstances and context. For the purposes of enforcing this measure, any administrator approached directly by Ryulong for enforcement should not act directly. In such a situation, raise both Ryulong's and Mythdon's conduct in normal venues for review.

Support

1. Proposed. --Vassyana (talk) 16:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
2. Casliber (talk · contribs) 17:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
3. Any actions taken pursuant to this motion must still be logged on the case pages to allow later review. Carcharoth (talk) 00:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
4. Second choice. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
5. Second choice.  Roger Davies 02:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
6. Second choice. John Vandenberg 13:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

1. Alternative motion below. -- FayssalF - 17:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Recused

1. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

As noted in a portion quoted by Mythdon, a demonstrated inability to work with a mentor may result in other sanctions. Mythdon's response to my questions illustrates that he is unwilling to accept the guidance and advice of a mentor. Rather than impose a broad topic ban that would severely impede his ability to contribute to the project, I propose this measure. It is explicitly intended to cover a broad range of behavior within the specific areas of dispute. It authorizes and encourages administrators to use their discretion to address the specific situation and context. The closing portion regarding Ryulong is a modification of the "any uninvolved admin" clause, based on the context of the arbitration case. This should permit Mythdon to continue contributing, while providing the project administrators with the tools to resolve any issues quickly and appropriately. --Vassyana (talk) 16:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion 2

Motion enacted - Tiptoety 19:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong#Mythdon restricted and placed under mentorship is vacated and replaced with the following:

Mythdon is placed under conduct probabtion

Mythdon is placed under conduct probation for one year, in relation to WikiProject Tokusatsu and Ryulong, broadly construed. This includes, but is not limited to, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution and to show better communication skills. Mythdon will still be restricted from making edits such as unnecessary questions and abusive warnings to users' talk pages.

Conduct probation enforcement

Any uninvolved administrator may utilize discretionary sanctions, including topic bans and blocks, to enforce this probation. Acting administrators are encouraged to apply sanctions tailored to the circumstances and context. For the purposes of enforcing this measure, any administrator approached directly by Ryulong for enforcement should not act directly. In such a situation, raise both Ryulong's and Mythdon's conduct in normal venues for review.

Support

1. FayssalF - 17:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
2. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
3. First choice. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
4. First choice.  Roger Davies 02:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
5. First choice. John Vandenberg 13:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
6. Since this level of detail is needed, first choice. --Vassyana (talk) 02:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Recused

1. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

This alternative motion addresses Mythdon's response and questions concerning the above motion. -- FayssalF - 17:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong (3)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JPG-GR (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Statement by Mythdon

I am asking for clarification regarding my conduct probation and other restrictions, if they apply to what I am asking.

I am currently in a dispute with Ryulong and JPG-GR (listed above) about whether I should put another Power Rangers article for deletion for verification reasons. Both have stated that they want me topic-banned should I put another article up for deletion based on my decision. I have stated that I will put another page up for deletion if I don't find reliable sources. If you want the link to the discussion, it is here (note that since it is a permanent link, the discussion may change).

I am asking the Arbitration Committee to clarify whether my conduct probation or other restrictions hold any jurisdiction over my placing of WikiProject Tokusatsu articles up for deletion. Before I again put a page up for deletion, this needs clarification. I wish for a fast response, though I won't force one. Thank you. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Further comment

Just to make the committee aware, I've taken the discussion to ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic ban threats at WT:TOKU. And here is the non-permanent link to the discussion: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tokusatsu#Search soon to begin. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Xeno

If we took any distance from eachother, that would only get in the way of us working on Power Rangers and tokusatsu articles. We both work on the same articles, and it would not be a good thing if we had to distance ourselves. It would only make things worse, not better, if distance were to happen. Such a distance is a turn for the worse and not a turn for the better, period. Please look at our contributions for evidence that we edit the same articles. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Ryulong

Let me clarify. This is in absolutely no way of an attempt to find a venue to wikilawyer at all. All I did was ask some random questions regarding a proposal of which I do not wish to get myself involved with. Hopefully that settles it. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 04:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to FayssalF

So, in other words, am I forbidden from putting these pages up for deletion? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You are clearly instructed to produce a guideline within the scope of the Tokusatsu WikiProject instead of filing articles to AfD. For the sake of clarity, I am producing here the remedy again:

Participants at the WikiProject Tokusatsu

7) All participants are advised to work on producing a genuine guideline for the articles falling under the scope of the WikiProject Tokusatsu. They are urged to work in collaboration with Mythdon while seeking outside advice and help.

Passed 13 to 0 at 20:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC) -- source

In other words, failing to work under the direction of the above remedy while persisting in putting pages up for deletion would be understood as disruption and a complete disregard of the remedy —which would warrant you a block. -- FayssalF - 19:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

So, from what you're saying, until me and WikiProject Tokusatsu produce a guideline, I am indeed forbidden from making further AfDs falling under it, correct? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 23:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion discussion

"Mythdon is prohibited from making any comment on reliable sources or verifiability unless comments are made at the WP:RS, WP:V or WP:TOKU talk pages;" - Could you please clarify this? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You got no more than 3 pages where you can discuss how to improve Misplaced Pages in terms of the cited guideline and policy. Please note that you are not allowed to discuss them in AfD pages as my colleague arbitrator Carcharoth may have probably implied. He is free to change his vote if he voted based on my non-explicit term or if he believes differently. Discussing these policies and guidelines at AfD would be contradictory to the spirit of the motion and to what is meant to achieve; you produce collaboratively something positive (which is a guideline in this case) before being allowed to use the AfD. I'll make this explicit in the motion. Now, this may not seem very relevant but it still an important thing to note... all policies and guidelines have been established collaboratively by hundreds of editors with only a tiny few trying to impose their views unsuccessfully.-- FayssalF - 19:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess, with that statement, I will be prohibited from making edits like () these following the motion. Is that correct? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The answer has been yes since the closure of the ArbCom case and remains a yes until ArbCom sees a produced guideline which specifies when and how edits like that would be possible. Now, could be the last time answering this question please? -- FayssalF - 19:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I didn't honestly think it was a "yes" since the closure of the case. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, does this motion have anything to do with the conduct probation or are these restrictions that are unrelated? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Everything in the motion is related to the conduct probation; you have failed the first test. We are not complicating matters... everything is related to the original case and its remedies. -- FayssalF - 19:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"The AfD restriction is indefinite pending the production of a guideline. Mythdon should respect the terms of the guideline once it is produced;" - I know I'm the only editor explicitly mentioned, but does this apply to the other participants pending the production, or just me? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Answering this would be moot as you are just saying below that you are quitting the WikiProject.

A hint for what is worth: No other editor has threatened to mass AfD articles and pursue any kind of a scheduled campaign. -- FayssalF - 19:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I stated that I will probably quit. I am not 100% sure yet. It's just a plan. It's not in effect yet. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"Therefore and as a preventive measure, restrictions apply to all WikiProjects" - Does this change the whole conduct probation to apply to every single Misplaced Pages article? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Plans

I have made plans to quit WikiProject Tokusatsu due to too much drama. What does the Arbitration Committee think? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It is your decision. However, make sure that similar behavior in any other WikiProject would be dealt with similarly. I also have to make sure this is explicit. -- FayssalF - 19:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not 100% sure yet though. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not resigning. So, please strike out or reword "in the light of Mythdon's resignation from the WikiProject". —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

However, instead of un-striking my user name, I have removed my name from the list. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 00:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

We are not playing here! This is ArbCom. -- FayssalF - 01:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

RfC plans

For the first time ever, I'm actually thinking about filing an RfC on myself, though I don't know how to do so for self-RfC's. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

My conclusions are that I will not based on recent thinking. I might start an editor review. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

AfD list

Here is a list of Power Rangers AfD's I started in 2008 and 2009, and here are the results:

1. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Power Rangers episodes (Result; keep)
2. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Other Rangers and Ranger-like allies (Result; keep)
3. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Power Rangers planets (Result; delete)
4. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dark Rangers (Result; delete)
5. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Power Rangers foot soldiers (Result; delete)
6. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ninja Quest (Result; redirect)
7. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Power Rangers monsters (2nd nomination) (Result; delete)
8. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marah and Kapri (Result; delete)
9. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Other Rangers and Ranger-like allies (2nd nomination) (Result; keep)
10. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Power Rangers cast members (Result; keep/merge)
11. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of minor Power Rangers characters (Result; keep)
12. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lost and Found in Translation (Result; redirect)
13. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Spells in Power Rangers: Mystic Force (Result; delete)
14. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Power Chamber (Result; keep)
15. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sky Tate (Result; delete)
16. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Morphers in Power Rangers (Result; delete)
17. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Green with Evil (Result; delete)
18. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/King Mondo (Result; keep)

Most of the AfD's result in the articles getting deleted, but also many were kept. What do you think? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 17:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This list has been noted while drafting the motion. It bears no big significance since the problem is behavioral. -- FayssalF - 19:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Without regard to the results? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom has nothing to do with content. We surely work for the benefit of the encyclopedia but I must be frank with you here. These set of articles are not BLP, science, politics or religious, etc articles. So probably behavior is much more important here as an aspect. You can easily present other articles to AfD once your behavior gets better after working hard on a guideline. -- FayssalF - 19:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I've decided not to produce a guideline. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Nothing changes then. All restrictions remain in place indefinitely per the motion below. -- FayssalF - 01:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Including everything that was for up to a year? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You are showing a total disrespect to ArbCom's decisions and people's views so why should ArbCom trust you'd change your behavior and change the terms of teh restrictions? Working on a guideline could be your opportunity to show us that you are here to collaborate and get rid of your radical behavior (you are right and therefore you are going to do this and that according to your principles kicking all other people's ideas against the wall). Well, ArbCom has decided that it won't change anything whatsoever. All restrictions remain as they are with the AfD restriction indefinitely. Ok, now we've got other important things to solve. Your case is over. -- FayssalF - 02:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll be back to request other clarifications shortly. This clarification thing isn't over yet. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No, there would be no "others". You must prepare a list of all your questions and ask for a clarification once or we'd be obliged to ignore your requests and consider them disruptive and block your account. -- FayssalF - 02:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Then I'll prepare a list of other questions by the end of the today. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 02:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Further requests

Just to get the Arbitration Committee prepared, I will be requesting further clarifications of the remedies after this request is closed. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 22:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This and other remedies

"Mythdon admonished"

Regarding this remedy.

In regards to "should Mythdon engage in any harassing behaviour on or off wiki, which includes attempting to seek Ryulong's identity on or off wiki, or attempting to contact Ryulong off-wiki" - Does this mean "limited only to" or "including but not limited to"?—Does it only apply to those explicitly mentioned harassing behaviors, or is it extended to harassment such as not leaving someone alone when they ask you to, threatening, stalking, etc? Minus the identity seeking, is it limited or not limited to Ryulong? Also, does it include trying to find out whether or not a Misplaced Pages user has a Youtube account, or other off-wiki internet account?

It is absolute. No off-wiki contact with Ryulong and no off and on-wiki seeking Ryulong's identity. Any attempt to try to link a Wiki user to an off-wiki person (and vice-versa) should be considered as harassment and people attempting it get sanctioned. -- FayssalF - 15:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to "then he may be sanctioned in accordance with the enforcement provisions." - Will these sanctions be made through a motion by ArbCom or will it be an administrators discretionary sanction?

No need for motions for admins to sanction violations of ArbCom case's ruling and motions applied to you. Enforcing administrators do not need to consult us except for very exceptional cases depending on their discretion. Don't forget that ArbCom members can also act as enforcing administrators themselves depending on their discretion. -- FayssalF - 15:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

And, about "attempting to contact Ryulong off-wiki" again - Does this forbid me from responding to off-wiki contact from Ryulong? Is he prohibited from contacting me off-wiki persuant to this remedy? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This is hypothetical since there has been no evidence of Ryulong contacting you off-wiki. If he does, don't respond but report it to us so we can pass a motion. -- FayssalF - 15:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

What "motion"? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A new one. -- FayssalF - 16:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"Ryulong admonished"

In regards to "for contacting administrators in private to seek either blocks on users he is in dispute with, or the performance of other administrative actions." - Does this forbid him from seeking blocks on editors he is in dispute with, whether he is seeking it on/off-wiki?

This is none of your business. He's the one concerned by this and if he got any doubt he could ask it himself. -- FayssalF - 15:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to "any further occurrence would lead to sanctions." - While I do understand that there is already an enforcement, what sanctions will be placed on him should they occur again? Has this sanction already been chosen, or will this sanction be chosen based on the evidence?

This is none of your business. He's the one concerned by this and if he got any doubt he could ask it himself. -- FayssalF - 15:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to "identifying personal information of Misplaced Pages users" - What does this mean? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It means what it means. -- FayssalF - 15:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"Mythdon strongly urged"

In regards to "to take his specific concerns about the verifiability of the articles to a wider venue such as Misplaced Pages:Village Pump, other sister WikiProjects or the Verifiability policy talk page itself and consult his views with others. He is then advised to report the views of others to WikiProject Tokusatsu for discussions;" - Will this just be done once, or shall I do this on a regular basis?

The idea is to get you used to flexibility and accepting other people's input while working for consensus. You cannot achieve that with a single post. The other idea is to get you work hard to establish a guideline with others. Therefore, you are urged to discuss, discuss and discuss it (not 3 or n times literally). You do it until you get positive results that would benefit the project. -- FayssalF - 15:36, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to "to enhance his level of communication with editors." - What does this mean? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It concerns mainly the volume of questions you are asking people. You are urged to reduce that volume because people who ask over and over the same questions need to enhance their level of communication in order for them to be able to cope with the level needed for editing collaboratively in Misplaced Pages. -- FayssalF - 15:36, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"Conduct probation"

And finally:

In regards to the "edit warring" - Is this a zero-revert-rule, a one-revert-rule, or will administrators block based on their discretion (i.e. block if they think it is preventative)?

I am not going to prejudge administrators' discretion but reverting is bad and frowned upon. It would be a sign that you've not learned lessons or that you just here to disrupt and disregard the spirit of the ArbCom's rulings. It is up to you to test the waters. Nothing is guaranteed. Remember that also arbitrators can wear the admin hat and act upon it themselves so please don't discount that option. -- FayssalF - 15:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

So, do administrators have the power to place revert restriction on me (i.e. -revert-rule)?

In regards to "Ryulong" - Do administrators have the power to restrict me from commenting on or to Ryulong should my conduct towards the user be considered inappropriate?

Absolutely... refer to Misplaced Pages:General sanctions#Types of sanctions. -- FayssalF - 15:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to "any administrator approached directly by Ryulong for enforcement should not act directly. In such a situation, raise both Ryulong's and Mythdon's conduct in normal venues for review." - What does this mean? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It means that Ryulong cannot just run to administrators and complain/ask for your block and have administrators blocking you on the spot. That is part of a restriction imposed on him due to the finding of facts reviewed during the arbitration case. -- FayssalF - 15:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Will the probation be paused or restarted during/after each block or topic ban? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Probation can be restarted as we do usually reset blocks. I've never heard of a pause. -- FayssalF - 15:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If I were to take a break, would the probation be paused? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No. We don't pay for holidays. Take your break whenever you want; the probation period would remain active without a pause. -- FayssalF - 15:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

But if it were a year or longer, then would it be paused? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If you are planning to go for a wikibreak for 10 years and come back with the same behavior then let me assure to you that you'll be blocked on spot and if you'd encounter me at that time I'd block you for the same period of that break. So, think about that. Don't go for a break to avoid the probation. -- FayssalF - 16:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Do administrators have the authorization to extend the duration of this probation? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I have just answered your question above saying that administrators have all the powers. Read it before asking! I am not going to clutter this page anymore by providing the same link again. -- FayssalF - 16:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"Therefore and as a preventive measure, restrictions apply to all WikiProjects;" - Does this change the coverage of the whole probation to cover all WikiProjects? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 16:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Look Mythdon. a) I asked you yesterday to prepare a list of all questions at once. You are not respecting it now. b) the answer to this question is just there before it... plain and crystal clear. This is like asking if "yes" really means "yes". Now, you stop asking please or I'll block you for disruption. -- FayssalF - 16:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Ryulong

Placing a topic ban on an editor is up to the community and has absolutely nothing to do with any editing restrictions placed on Mythdon by the arbitration committee. This is just wikilawyering by Mythdon to avoid the inevitable discussion concerning his editing practices by other users in WP:TOKU.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Statements like this by Mythdon show that he is not willing to abide by the arbitration restrictions/suggestions/whichever. He has shown no headway in communicating with WP:TOKU or sister projects or the village pump in working constructively with other users. He has flatly stated that he will send pages to AFD without discussing things with other users, and his comments at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tokusatsu#Search soon to begin show that he was never willing to work with the WikiProject, flatly ignoring mine and JPG-GR's requests that he not act in the way he plans.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, this shows he is not here to work collaboratively.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:58, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

And this is an example of Mythdon's attempt at finding a new venue for his wikilawyering.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I know that I wasn't exactly helpful at the later points in the "Search soon to begin" discussion. And how else will further issues be solved without my own input when people only get one part of the issue.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC) originally posted here. Moved here by John Vandenberg 05:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Why should I not be able to converse directly with him when he brings up things that he's going to do to the articles? Or respond to his accusations in the wider forum of ANI?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Protonk

The ongoing AN/I discussion is instructive for arbs as to the problem at hand. The general dispute should be resolved by the community but the specific clarification remains a live issue. Does the past case prevent myth's current behavior (as described in the linked thread)? Protonk (talk) 18:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Hersfold

The committee issued two findings of fact ("Mythdon's interpretation of policies and guidelines" and "Mythdon stance toward the articles" immediately after) and a remedy ("Mythdon strongly urged") in this case that seem to deal directly with this. In them, it is noted that his interpretation of the verifiability guidelines in this respect is overly strict and at times disruptive. In the discussion Mythdon has linked, he has unilaterally stated that he will be nominating a wide swath of articles for deletion if he can't find sources (which all other three users involved in that discussion have stated he cannot be trusted to do). Mythdon has (as is usual with him) flatly refused to accept any of the suggestions or pointers offered to him in that discussion, and stated that "Requesting deletion at AfD is gaining consensus", which appears to be a direct contradiction to the remedy I mentioned earlier.

Furthermore, I'd note that this is the third request for clarification brought forth to ArbCom by Mythdon, all of which have been characterized by wikilawyering by Mythdon. This is becoming very tedious that every week we have to go through all of this again because Mythdon has felt he's found another loophole through which he can continue his disruptive editing. Hersfold 23:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Xeno

I recently attended to an unblock request by Ryulong. It was for a stale AN3 report (ended 07:15 in agreement, reported 19:27), which Mythdon reported at ANI 19:41 , later attempting to have the blocking administrator increase the length See also an earlier conversation between Mythdon and the filing party earlier that day as well as , . The parent thread to Mythdon's had already run its course on the matter and ended at 08:24 .

I haven't reviewed the case in full, but it seems to me that these two editors could each benefit from added distance between them.

(FYI, I conferred with the blocking admin via email and unblocked Ryulong and his dispute partner.) –xeno 00:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Note by Ncmvocalist

I've proposed a restriction on Mythdon at the ANI discussion; if it's imposed, it can be imposed either under the conduct probation from the decision, or as a community sanction. This is more of a courtesy notice. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• Recused... again... although commenting above. Hersfold 23:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• Request: Could clerks/Arbitrators CE the motion below so it points to requests for enforcement?--Tznkai (talk) 15:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Did this help? Carcharoth (talk) 16:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• Mythdon, you have been asked —among others— to "work on producing a genuine guideline for the articles falling under the scope of the WikiProject Tokusatsu. Project's participants urged to work in collaboration with while seeking outside advice and help." Instead of working on it you've been getting back to your tendentious ways and the behavior which brought you to ArbCom in the first place. Failing to abide by the cited remedy I'd be considering further requests for clarification or mass AfDs as a highly disruptive tactic from your part. This is the last warning ever from my part. I hope this clarifies and answers your request up here. -- FayssalF - 16:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
• Also recused. Risker (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
• There is little to add to FayssalF's comment, save perhaps that he is being gentle. — Coren  21:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
• Per Coren and FayssalF. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Mythdon, I am going to be as plain as possible. As part of the remedies pertaining to you - "This includes, but is not limited to, edit warring and failing to appropriately pursue dispute resolution and to show better communication skills." Right now you are skating on thin ice. Writing large amounts of material at AN/I and pointedly nominating material will result in conflictual situations very quickly. The ability to edit collaboratively is a prerequisite to editing at wikipedia. If you are unable to do that, and you are seen to play a part in furthering conflicts, admins do have the ability to block you as per the remedy. Spending time at AfD is often highly confrontational. If you wish to risk getting into conflict there so be it, but if an uninvolved admin views your role as disruptive there or anywhere else, you have been warned. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Mythdon, because a mentor was not found or wanted, the conduct probation allows for discretionary sanctions to be devised by uninvolved administrators. As a result, any disruptive conduct by you may result in sanctions of any sort. There is no need for clarification from us at this time; come back when an administrator does impose a restriction, and we may review its appropriateness.
  You are urged to work collaboratively, and avoid generating hostility. Nominating many articles for deletion would not be unhelpful. Saying "My decision is firm, and will remain the same. I will nominate these pages for deletion if no reliable or relevant source can be found, period. No questions asked." is not appropriate in light of Arbcom decision.
  Ryulong, you should be avoiding participation in any discussions calling for sanctions against Mythdon. Your extensive involvement in the second half of this discussion is not helpful, as you are escalating the issue rather than trying to look for solutions other than having Mythdon banned. John Vandenberg 05:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Ryulong, you seemed to be very quick to give your input about Mythdon. If I were you, I would never comment in direct reply to Mythdon unless nobody else has done so for 2 hours. Only then would you know whether the community actually "needs" your input or not. However irrespective of whether your input is needed, it is not wanted on threads about Mythdon sanctions. John Vandenberg 05:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Motion

Pursuant to the latest developments related to the recent Arbitration case involving Mythdon and Ryulong and discussions on the Arbitration Committee mailing list, the Arbitration Committee has noted that there has been no changes in the behavior of Mythdon since the closure of the Arbitration case:

a) the user has made no effort whatsoever to find a mentor;

b) the user has made no effort whatsoever to engage himself in serious discussions to produce a guideline for the articles falling under the scope of the Tokusatsu WikiProject as directed by this remedy;

c) the user has targetted another Misplaced Pages area to impose his stance on verifiability disregarding the ArbCom's view concerning his stance on the matter;

d) He recently threatened to mass AfD articles which do not satisfy his standards in terms of reliable sources and verifiability;

Therefore, the Committee has decided to extend the restrictions imposed in order to facilitate more collaboration in the field of conflict and to ensure the smooth running of the project in general and protect other areas in particular. The terms are as follows:

a) Mythdon is prohibited from partcipating at any Misplaced Pages:Articles for Deletion discussion which involves verifiability and reliable sources. That includes —and is not limited to— the WikiProject Tokusatsu. The restriction is indefinite pending the production of a guideline. Mythdon —as well as everyone else— should respect the terms of the guideline once it is produced;

b) Mythdon is reminded of the importance of participating in a good faith effort to help produce a genuine guideline for the cited WikiProject, including but not limited to verifiability. He is again urged to start working on this guideline;

b) Mythdon is prohibited from making any comment on reliable sources or verifiability unless comments are made at the talk pages of those guidelines and policies, or at the Tokusatsu WikiProject talk pages;

d) all other restrictions imposed during the arbitration case involving him remain in place;

e) in the light of Mythdon's resignation from the WikiProject, the ArbCom notes that any similar behavior which had led to this situation would be dealt with similarly. Therefore and as a preventive measure, restrictions apply to all WikiProjects;

e) should Mythdon violate the above restrictions, any administrator may block him for a period up to two weeks per incident, escalating to one year per incident after the fifth one. Any discussion about possible violations should be held at requests for arbitration enforcement;

f) any further request on this matter should go through requests for arbitration enforcement beforehand. Administrators there are able to help answer any question.

Once the motion passes, Clerks will update the original ArbCom case accordingly.

Support

1. This matter is closed for me. -- FayssalF - 13:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
2. Per Fayssal.  Roger Davies 15:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
3. — Coren  15:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
4. I would prefer to leave this to uninvolved administrators, who would have imposed discretionary sanctions only after other approaches had failed, however Mythdon is persisting to seek a committee decision on hypothetical situations that he should obviously be avoiding; as a result he needs to be prevented from causing those hypothetical situations. John Vandenberg 15:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
5. Wizardman 16:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

   Noting here that Mythdon is not restricted from participating in AfDs, only from starting them. Threatening mass AfDs should not be done without good reason. Working to establish guidelines in a particular area is nearly always better, and less disruptive, than any mass deletion nomination or action. I've also copyedited the motion. Carcharoth (talk) 16:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC) Striking vote following change to the motion made here. Carcharoth (talk) 20:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

6. Sadly, this has clearly become needed. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
7. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
8. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think some form of increased restrictions are needed, but this goes too far. Mythdon may not be the right person to be raising these issues, but he is not alone in raising them. See , , , and the dissenting opinions at this DRV (still in progress, permalink to page at time of writing provided), In short, I would have, and did, support the restriction on nominating articles at AfD. But I can't support a complete ban on participating at AfD (or indeed DRV). It is important that areas like AfD remain as open as possible, and not subject to "opponents" in a debate being banned from participating at AfD. The consensus at AfDs should be based on all available input, not restricted in this manner. We should trust admins to discount those opinions that fall a long way outside policies, and not ban minority opinions. There are many at AfD who do argue from places a long way outside policy - we are not proposing to ban those editors from AfD. I think the original restrictions suggested by Fayssal (not the later, more restrictive proposal), or the proposal here, would have been adequate. I also agree with John that Mythdon's repeated requests to ArbCom for clarification of hypothetical situations is unhelpful. Carcharoth (talk) 21:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

   The behavior shown by Mythdon so far is not suitable to be accepted in AfDs. I am certainly not going to let his usual radical stance be transferred from the WikiProject to AfDs. We do ban and block people on a daily basis, let alone restricting inadequate behavior from venues where their presence would be unhelpful. You produce in a collaborative way a guideline and abide by it alongside other colleagues and get the keys. You refuse and pursue radical behavior as if no prior Arbitration case has taken place and you stay out. It is both encouraging the establishment of a guideline and a preventive measure. I am not prepared to see prolems coming from Mythdon again and I am not going to gamble this time. -- FayssalF - 21:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Abstain

Discussions

I've updated the motion based on my recent answers to Mythdon's recent questions. I've explicitly . Arbitrators, please review terms a) and e). I've also left a note at the WikiProject talk page. -- FayssalF - 19:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to comment down here, but whatever. Don't bother changing anything that regards Mythdon resigning from anything. He's just doing it to garner attention and see if it will prevent him from being restricted. Take a look at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tokusatsu#Mythdon_is_probably_quitting.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You are certainly allowed per WP:BURO but you are certainly not allowed to call others "drama queens" per WP:NPA. This is your last warning Ryulong. -- FayssalF - 01:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I did not consider "drama queen" a personal attack.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, ArbCom believes it is. Some people may not see it that way and that's why we have ArbCom to say whether it considers it a PA or not. Please avoid it in the future. -- FayssalF - 09:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to amend prior case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong

Case affected

Ryulong arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy "Ryulong admonished"
2. Enforcement "Ryulong and users' identity seeking"

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• (Ryulong)

Amendment 1

• "Ryulong admonished" (term A)
• From the current wording: "(A) For his behaviour off-wiki and directed to refrain from seeking Mythdon's identity off-wiki, identifying personal information of Misplaced Pages users, and from disclosing that information to others. Should Ryulong engage in any attempt to seek Mythdon's identity off wiki or in disclosing any information about Mythdon, then he may be sanctioned in accordance with the enforcement provisions;"
• Modifying to "(A) For his behaviour off-wiki and directed to refrain from identifying personal information of Misplaced Pages users, and from disclosing that information to others. Should Ryulong engage in any attempt in disclosing any information about Mythdon, then he may be sanctioned in accordance with the enforcement provisions;""

Amendment 2

• "Ryulong and users' identity seeking"
• That this enforcement be terminated.

Statement by Mythdon

I am requesting an amendment to "Ryulong admonished" and the enforcement "Ryulong and users' identity seeking".

Taking a good look at the findings and evidence, there is no finding or evidence that Ryulong was seeking any users identity. Finding "Ryulong discussing the identity of Mythdon" makes no mention of identity seeking, but mentions identity discussion, if anything.

I think it is totally unjust to make a remedy on something that isn't found to had been going on—Trying to solve what is not happening. This is one of those cases. Was there a finding or any actual evidence that Ryulong sought any user personal information? No. Sam Blacketer voted against this enforcement for exactly that reason. Therefore, I request that we terminate this enforcement, and modify the admonishment to only direct Ryulong to refrain from doing what he was found to do. Note that this is not based on my personal preferences, but based on what is necessary for the cases judgment. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Casliber

Well, I am pursuing this because there is no finding of fact or evidence that Ryulong was actually seeking my identity. Arbitration remedies are to ensure that problems don't recur, not to ensure a problem never starts. It is not whether I give him permission to seek my identity, but whether the arbitration remedies serve a purpose. These do not obviously serve any purpose other than, if anything, prevent problems that have never occurred. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 14:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to John Vandenberg

What I am suggesting is not to make the remedy unenforceable, but to make the remedy fair to the evidence and findings of fact. There is no evidence that Ryulong was identity seeking, which is exactly why I am here. I also have a question, one which should be at Requests for Clarification. Will Ryulong be banned if he violates "identifying personal information of Misplaced Pages users, and from disclosing that information to others"? I'm curious, because you make it sound so. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 21:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Carcharoth

Well, actually, Ryulong does wish for this amendment, and even if he didn't want this to be amended, that doesn't change the fact that this amendment is needed. I will quote what he said here:

"In response to Carcharoth, sure why not. I didn't like this restriction or whatever because it was based on the one-off instance when Mythdon was going out of his way to contact me on other websites and I merely relayed the information to another user, which was blown out of proportion by another edit that I did not make."

With that quoted, "sure why not" + "I didn't like this restriction" equals up to statement of desire for the amendment. If you still doubt his acceptance, please take it up with him on his talk page. --Mythdon 23:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Amendment 3

• Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
• Details of desired modification

Statement by Ryulong

In response to Carcharoth, sure why not. I didn't like this restriction or whatever because it was based on the one-off instance when Mythdon was going out of his way to contact me on other websites and I merely relayed the information to another user, which was blown out of proportion by another edit that I did not make.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recused - Hersfold 02:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• Recused - Tiptoety 03:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
• On reading this, I am open to this. As the underlying meaning isn't changed, but the wording is made more neutral (?) Can I ask why you are pursuing this Mythdon? Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
  • OK, given that the functional result of the wording is actually the same, but the explicit mention of Ryulong is removed, I am open to this one. I'll see what the others think but I think we can run with this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• Like Casliber, I'm uncertain as to what the point of all this is. It should be Ryulong filing this kind of request for amendment, not Mythdon. It seems very strange for Mythdon to be filing this request. I am not minded to grant this request unless Ryulong asks for it himself. Carcharoth (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Per John, decline. Ryulong should refile if he wants to see these parts of the case amended. Mythdon should refrain from commenting on these parts of the case. Carcharoth (talk) 22:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Decline as written. The requested amendment alters a remedy that still refers to an enforcement that is proposed to be terminated. The result would be a remedy that is unenforcible. Like Casliber and Carcharoth I am open to an improved wording along these lines, but this amendment isnt it. John Vandenberg 22:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
• Recused, as I was for the original case. Risker (talk) 05:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
• Decline per John. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Decline per above. Wizardman 15:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• Decline per John. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
• Decline per John. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Ryulong (2)

Case affected

Ryulong arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Enforcement #4
2. Motion 2 (replacement of Remedy #4)

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Ncmvocalist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Mythdon (diff of notification of this thread on Mythdon's talk page)
• Ryulong (diff of notification of this thread on Ryulong's talk page)

Amendment 1

• Enforcement #4
• Desired modification: that Enforcement #4 be vacated and replaced with the heading "Conduct Probation enforcement" and its accompanying paragraph, which is currently found under Motion 2 (which is replacing remedy 4).

Statement by Ncmvocalist

This is pretty straightforward. Although this is not a substantive change to the decision, the enforcement part of a remedy belongs in the enforcement section of a decision; except in the case of temporary injunctions. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Amendment 2

• Motion 2 (remedy)
• Desired modification: that the heading "Conduct Probation enforcement" and its accompanying paragraph, found in the above remedy, be removed.

Statement by Ncmvocalist

This becomes necessary to avoid the potential unnecessary confusion caused (and the repetition otherwise caused by amendment 1). Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by Mythdon

I was actually thinking about asking the Arbitration Committee to remove the mentorship enforcement myself. I, like Ncmvocalist, ask that the Arbitration Committee remove this enforcement as it is moot, and not enforcing anything, and can't be used without the mentorship remedy being in place. Arbitration Committee members, please pass a new motion in which this enforcement be removed. As for the conduct probation enforcement being in the "enforcement" section, I think that it should also be there, strictly for stylistic reasons. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 15:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Please, please. ArbCom, pass a motion. Please. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 23:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to the Committee's acceptance of this amendment. Please now, one of you, please, please, and I do mean please, propose a motion. Thank you! —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 17:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Which motion, Mythdon? -- FayssalF - 17:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A motion to make the modifications desired above. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 17:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There's no need to pass a motion for modifications. Please, read carefully what Newyorkbrad and other arbitrators say below. Once this amendment is closed, a clerk will make the necessary modifications at the case page. -- FayssalF - 18:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't amendment requests close following a motion if accepted? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 18:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, that would be true if we were applying strict standards to our applications. It is not the case. Again, please read the arbitrators' views below. They believe this is not a substantive change; it is rather technical. Process must stay fluid and you must avoid instruction creep. You can also have a look at Misplaced Pages is NOT a bureaucracy if you got some free time. -- FayssalF - 18:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Then I guess I'll treat the "arbitrator views and discussion" section as though it is the motion and that the arbitrators are in fact voting. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 18:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you'll have to treat what will be written (black on white) at the case page itself as the official resolution. The rest is irrelevant.

Now, all these excessive questions should have been answered by your mentor. Same for your disruptive requests to a couple of administrators today for testing a block when asking them to block you for nothing —just for the sake of curiosity. That adds nothing to 'building the encyclopedia'. Be aware that an admin may block you for real next time for your highly disruptive attitude. You are walking on thin ice already. -- FayssalF - 19:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The mentor thing was over when you and your fellow arbitrators passed a motion to replace the mentorship with the conduct probation, strictly for reasons that I refused to work with a mentor. Now, speaking of "excessive questions", I'm thinking about making another request for clarification, but given that it seems you feel that I've done too much of that process, I wont make another request for a reasonable period of time. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Ryulong

Kay...—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Indeed. This is no longer needed and it makes sense to remove it now. John Vandenberg 14:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• This is a procedural, rather than substantive, correction and I see no reason it should not be done. — Coren  16:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• For the record, recused. As a general procedural matter, I agree that these types of thing can be handled informally. (In Congressional parlance, "I ask unanimous consent that the Clerk be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to reflect the actions of the committee.") Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree, per all the above. -- FayssalF - 17:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Procedural matter, which I believe is well within the scope of the arbitration clerks to carry out. Agree to this. Risker (talk) 02:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC) Recusing per Mythdon's request on my talk page. Risker (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with John and Coren. Since the request is here, it can be dealt with here, but this is the sort of thing that it is often worth running by a clerk first. If in their judgment, such a change can be made, there would then be no need to come here, unless someone contested the change. Carcharoth (talk) 22:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with John, Coren et al.. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
• Also agree, let's get it done. Wizardman 21:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Ryulong (4)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Mythdon

I am here to request a fourth clarification on the Ryulong case.

After some thinking, I have found that, even after my long list of questions in the last clarification, that there are still things that have been left unanswered.

I have the following questions:

1. Term (C) of the "new remedies and enforcement"; "Mythdon is prohibited from making any comment on reliable sources or verifiability unless comments are made at the talk pages of those guidelines and policies, or at the Tokusatsu WikiProject talk pages;" - Am I also prohibited from inserting or removing any citation of any article in regards to this remedy?
2. Since the conduct probation was created for reasons that I refused to work with a mentor as directed in its predecessor "Mythdon restricted and placed under mentorship", is mentorship a sanction that administrators have the power to use as a discretionary sanction to enforce this probation?

If I have any additional questions, I will post them in this statement, though I likely wont have any questions in the future, unless the Arbitration Committee decides to amend the case again as they did in the second and third clarification requests. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• Recused... Hersfold 20:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused - Tiptoety 00:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused - MBisanz 22:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Closing clerk note This will be closed within the next 12 hours. Seddσn | 18:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• First question: Inserting citations is why we are all here. Removing citations —except removing irrelevant ones which incorrectly relate to the cited content— is considered vandalism. Second question: Actually, mentorship is not a sanction. It is a remedy that has benefits for the mentored user (inherently for the community). Now, this is an essay for you to read. Don't take it for granted since it is just an essay. That means that mentorship application would be up to the discretion and discussions of the administrators. Repeating... Any further question should be directed to the Arbitration Enforcement. Note that they may still ignore it/them or warn you for excessive and unnecessary questions based on the 'communication' remedy passed by ArbCom. -- FayssalF - 15:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• I second Fayssal - adding sourced material is good, but removing same is too contentious for you to partake in. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Fayssal. Mythdon, if you want advice on other types of work you can do that doesn't involve things that you are restricted from doing, I would be happy to make some suggestions. Carcharoth (talk) 23:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused. Risker (talk) 02:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Fayssal et al. Wizardman 21:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong (5)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mythdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Viridae (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MBisanz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Daedalus969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Tiptoety (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Ryulong
• Viridae
• Sandstein
• MBisanz
• Daedalus969
• Tiptoety

Statement by Mythdon

Sorry to be making a new request for clarification while the other one is pending archiving, but given the story here, a new section is needed.

Here's the story in a chronology:

• I reverted a rollback by Ryulong, citing "reversion of most likely good faith edit without a reason". Ryulong undid my revert.
• Ryulong approaches me on my talk page.
• Ryulong reports me to Arbitration Enforcement.
• User's make comments at Arbitration Enforcement, with Viridae warning Ryulong that if he continued to misuse rollback, that it would be removed.
• Ryulong's rollback gets removed. Persistent violations: .
• The removal is discussed on Ryulong's talk page.
• Sandstein suggests a sanction be imposed on me prohibiting me from reverting Ryulong's edits.
• Viridae blocks me for 12 hours, to enforce the probation.
• Ryulong approaches Tiptoety to discuss the undo feature.

These are just the basics. More detail should be brought up by the other users soon.

While it is without question that it was warranted for me to be blocked for conduct probation term; "edit warring", I am questioning as to whether or not I am forbidden from making such a revert—reverting a rollback due to it being abusive.

After a bit of thought, I probably should have, rather than impose my own preferred action, taken the rollback to WP:ANI and let a discussion go on there. It most certainly would not have resulted in a block.

Should Sandstein impose the restriction upon me, which will forbid me from reverting Ryulong's edits, will this restriction be allowed to remain even after the conduct probation ends, will it end alongside the conduct probation, or will this be determined by the imposing administrator, or the Arbitration Committee?

Thank you for taking the time. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Sanctioned

Sandstein has now imposed the revert ban from reverting Ryulong's edits here. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 21:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

And now Sandstein has changed it to "for the duration of the his conduct probation". Mythdon (talk • contribs) 21:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Carcharoth

I thought you didn't need prior attempts at resolution to that level before coming here. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 22:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

"There does need to have been more attempts to talk about something than has happened here.... " - So, in other words, future requests for clarification should be made if beyond a reasonable doubt that it is in fact needed? Mythdon (talk • contribs) 23:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

"Mythdon, you need to find someone to ask advice from as to whether you should be filing these requests.... " - So, in other words, you're saying that I should find a "Request for Clarification" mentor? Mythdon (talk • contribs) 03:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Xeno

I would suggest some kind of injunction preventing Mythdon from filing further spurious requests for clarifications or amendments. Perhaps requiring him to have a clerk, arb, or uninvolved admin review the desired request at their talk page, with an eye to clearing it up informally or advising them that it is a legitimate request.

And re-stating my previous statement at a previous clarification or amendment that these two editors would benefit from increased distance between them. (So, in essence, I would endorse Sandstein's imposed restriction: If the rollback was indeed abusive, another editor would be sure to see it and take action.) –xeno 19:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by MBisanz

I did comment at the AE thread, explicitly as an involved and recused individual. Since the case ended Mythdon has shown a complete inability and unwillingness to interact with others in a collaborative manner. The endless requests to the Committee appears to serve more to nettle Ryulong and inflate Mythdon's own ego than actually pursue dispute resolution. I would highly recommend to the community/committee that they consider a namespace ban or ban from editing for Mythdon. MBisanz 20:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved roux

Rather than any nebulous request for clarification here, can Mythdon simply not be directed to stay away from Ryulong? Wasn't that a sanction previously anyway? → ROUX ₪ 21:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

Absent admin opposition, I have imposed the sanction mentioned by Xeno above at . Mythdon's question about the duration of the sanction is now moot because the sanction specifies its duration. Any restriction of Mythdon against filing pointless requests such as this one is beyond the scope of the case's remedies and would need Committee action if deemed necessary.  Sandstein  21:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Notification by Ncmvocalist

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Mythdon_and_Arbitration. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

• Recused, and echoing Xeno and NYB's sentiments that the number of clarifications being requested has become ridiculous, and is beginning to cross the line of disruption. Hersfold non-admin 20:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused, commenting above. MBisanz 20:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Recused, again. - Tiptoety 21:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Seems like ill be taking this one then. Seddσn | 02:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Closing clerk note This will be closed within the next 12 hours. Seddσn | 18:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused, but nonetheless hopeful that someone can induce Mythdon to proceed in a more productive direction very soon now, as this situation is becoming ridiculous. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• I would recuse on this request for clarification if it was indeed a request for clarification of the Arbitration Committee decision. This is not such a request. Risker (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Mythdon, you've been directed to the AE for whatever doubt or question you might have. Administrators have the ability to decide on your case. The response to your question can be answered whether by the restricting admin or others who may participate in the AE discussion. Any outcome should be logged. That said, ArbCom retains the right to pass any further restriction/sanction (topic ban, ban) via a motion if needs be. Could a clerk please archive this request? -- FayssalF - 20:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• No action needed by ArbCom. Concur that this is not a matter that needs to be discussed by the Arbitration Committee. While I'm extremely hesitant to block an user from communicating with ArbCom about a matter related to a case where they are a party, I agree with the other user's comments that you (Mythdon) need to put more thought into your requests before you make them. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Fayssal/FloNight. There is absolutely nothing for us to look at. Wizardman 21:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Nothing to do here. Mythdon, if you have questions, you need to consider if someone other than ArbCom can answer them (this is why a mentor was suggested - maybe try WP:ADOPT?). To any of the editors who interact with Mythdon, I would ask that you answer questions he has, and then try and politely disengage and let him know if his questioning becomes excessive. Both Mythdon and the editors he interacts with only need to come here as a last resort if discussions fail or misunderstandings continue. Please, try and resolve these questions elsewhere before coming here. Carcharoth (talk) 22:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I thought you didn't need prior attempts at resolution to that level before coming here" - there does need to have been more attempts to talk about something than has happened here. There is a reason we have arbitration enforcement and talk pages. Just because something relates to the arbitration case does not mean you need to come here every time you have a question. This is exactly the sort of situation where you would go to a mentor and ask them first whether you should come here to ask for a clarification. In this case, they would likely have given you advice that would have answered your questions. Carcharoth (talk) 23:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Mythdon, you need to find someone to ask advice from as to whether you should be filing these requests. Everyone who files a request weighs up the pros and cons of doing so. One of the disadvantages of excessive filings is that you get less attention paid to what you are saying. Less is more. If you must make these requests, save them up somewhere in a draft page in your userspace, and then ask someone whose advice you will respect to have a look, and only then come here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
• Decline nothing for us to look at. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:48, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with Fayssal/FloNight. This is getting really old and has prompted an ANI thread to ban Mythdon from arb pages. See my comment there. Mythdon, I strongly suggest you get the hint therefrom. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.