Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wavesmikey (talk | contribs) at 20:38, 12 December 2005 (→Removed extraneous links). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

For old or unrelated discussion: Archive1

Creationists placing links to "answers in genesis" on the front page

I have removed the answers in genesis links on the front page, they have no relevance to the discussion of abiogenesis. Let them place their links in the "creationism" discussion or whatever.

Merged some material with origin of life article

I think this article should this be merged with origin of life. The historical part can easily be part of that article, and the modern stuff overlaps with what is on that page right now in any case. --Lexor 19:25, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I have modified my position. I think it should probably be left as a separate page, since it is a slightly more general concept and has a history of its own. I have taken the liberty to move most of the "modern abiogenesis" stuff which is almost exclusively about the origin of life and merge it with the origin of life article, but have left a summary and a Main article: pointer here.

--Lexor 12:05, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Paragraph removed by anonymous IP address (not by me). --Lexor|Talk 10:13, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If abiogenesis is found impossible, this would seem to disprove both evolutionary and religious explanations of the origin of life, and would support the idea that life has always existed. The only remaining point would be whether or not life is modified by nature, as claimed by evolutionists, or not, as claimed by many religions

Proposal to Merge this page into Biopoiesis

I would like to know how you folks feel about merging abiogenesis into biopoiesis. This term carries less historical baggage and seems to be favored over abiogenesis in some situations. --Viriditas 11:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I prefer to leave it abiogenesis where it is (it gets around 18,000 hits: Google), and I think that biopoiesis should be merged with origin of life, it only gets 91 hits on Google: Google. With two sentences I can't really see it being expanded. --Lexor|Talk 11:45, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Google_test. "...the google test checks popular usage, not correctness." For some good links on the history and differences between the two words, see this link and this link. Biopoiesis has been used in place of abiogenesis by a number of researchers involved in origins related work. OTOH, abiogenesis has connotations of spontaneous generation, and it currently bears the weight of two different definitions, thus leading to ambiguity. I am therefore suggesting that abiogenesis should refer to spontaneous generation while biogenesis should be used to refer to its current definition regarding the origin of life.. IMO, I doubt that a google hit ranking will reflect this difference in any way, as most of the journals, articles, and textbooks that use these definitions are not online. When I have some more time I will try to present some further evidence for the proposed merge. In my proposal, the article for abiogenesis would still exist but it would not refer to the more modern implication of biopoiesis, just spontaneous generation. Thanks in advance for your response. --Viriditas 01:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Abiogenesis is by far the most common term for this, so I think biopoiesis should be merged here instead. (It's not our job to push new terminology.) — B.Bryant 14:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

scientific view?

Brig Klyce proposes Cosmic ancestry which is a theory that intelligent life, through some natural mechanism, effectively began at the same time as the universe.

How is this a scientific view? It seems like a fantastic hypothesis. -- Temtem 16:12, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

May we need a section titled "Philosophical Critique of Abiogenesis." -- Temtem 16:16, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

More like "fantasies about the origins of life". Also notice that Klyce proposes an idea, not a theory. At any rate, I removed mention of both Klyce and Crick, since the paragraphs offered their opinions about origins, but didn't actually offer any criticism of the theory (as per the name of that section). — B.Bryant 17:22, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the above section (Creationist Response)

I really do not mean to be rude, and I have to admit I find the above debate rather interesting; but would it be possible to move this debate to some other forum? I will admit I am new to Misplaced Pages in general, but it seems to me this particular page acts as an area to discuss what should and should not be included in the article it is attached to (abiogenesis). Any debate held here would revolve around content that should be added or removed, or possibly to discuss whether or not a neutral point of view is maintained. In short, it is an area to discuss the reasoning behind revisions or reverts.

In that case I propose that we add something about the fact that all living organisms consist of homochiralic proteins, while nature has yet to produce any yet (so far as we have observed, of course). We also probably should add something about the fact that Miller's little experiment only produced 13 of the 20 basic amino acids, and that scientists since then have not done any better. Shall I go ahead an add this or wait for a consensus / vote?

Randy

Hey again! I would say the first thing to do is to create an account. Either the one you had prior or another. It is just easier to work with other people if you are registered. You get your own page where you can put a bit of stuff about you and an additional page where people can leave you messages. It is much easier for colaboration. My page is here. And my talk page is here. After you are registered, anytime you leave comments on a Talk page like this one, you can add three of these ~ symbols or four of these ~ symbols in a row. That will automaticly sign the doc with a link to your page and the current time. Just like this: Knoma Tsujmai 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, I have done that, and it is --Truthteller 17:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) -- and includes a summary of what I believe and why I believe it.

Beyond that, there really isn't any voting per se. The Misplaced Pages works very different than a lot of other things in life. To be involved in Misplaced Pages is to agree to be edited mercilessly. People don't really vote on articles as much as they discuss them and constantly change them. Opinions vary widely, but more often than not some level of agreement is met and a neutral point of view is maintained. Once you get an account and sign in, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page if you want help creating a section in here proposing changes. Again, you can just go ahead and make any changes you want anywhere in Misplaced Pages at any time, but finding some way to work through and represent the opposing opinions will likely help your revisions to stick. Knoma Tsujmai 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I read once that there are really three general categories of communication. We either:

• Communicate to Inform
• Communicate to Persuade
• Communicate to Entertain

The Misplaced Pages needs to be as much about the first as it can. It is hard to write without a slant and to only present facts, but that is the goal. Knoma Tsujmai 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

So again, sign up and start outlining some changes. The Sandbox is a great place to try out formatting text. I look forward to hearing about the additional information you think would be relevant for this document, as well as at what point you think it makes sense to link to other documents or data. But you really do not need to wait for me or anyone else to authorize changes, just be cognizant that anything you contribute here can be edited by another at any time. I think that is what fascinates me the most about all this. The Misplaced Pages started in my lifetime, but will likely survive on this Earth much longer than I. At the same time, "The Misplaced Pages" does not really exist at all as it is edited multiple times every minute and is never the same. Here's to hoping that both you and I write an article or two that is useful, interesting and unbiased enough to survive long after we are gone! Cheers to that and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Knoma Tsujmai 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that, while this is a lively and interesting discussion, it might be best to move it to e-mail or some other forum.

Again, I'm glad we've come to a general consensus around the current content, I look forward to further refining the entry, and I don't mean to interrupt what looks to be a lively, interesting, (albeit long running) debate on the theory itself; but I am wondering if it would make sense to collapse the above section, archive it to the history and move the debate to another forum external to the Misplaced Pages.

Just a thought. Knoma Tsujmai 17:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum. And there should be no troll feeding. Joe D (t) 17:37, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree, I have put it in Archive1 along with 2002 material, eventually the section will be deleted/overwritten as future material is archived. This section will be archived shortly as well. Welcome to Misplaced Pages Knoma Tsujmai; you have good instincts. :'D - RoyBoy 19:26, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Critics

Two of the three main critics of abiogenesis are deceased, which means they cannot be aware of any recent scientific research. Shouldn't we also mention that Erwin Schrödinger achieved fame for his contributions to quantum mechanics, while Sir Fred Hoyle was an astronomer? I'm not sure how this should be made clear, without it sounding like criticising the critics, though. -- Ec5618 12:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I think a paragraph before the names could read something like:

It should be noted that despite the success these scientists have had in their fields of study, they do not have expertise in biological systems. Leading biologists point out assumptions in their arguments which have little to no bearing on abiogenesis theories or research.

Just a draft. - RoyBoy 15:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The modern concept of abiogenesis has been criticised by scientists, notably by Sir Fred Hoyle, Erwin Schrödinger and Hubert Yockey. It should be noted that despite the success these scientists have had in their respective fields of study, they do or did not have expertise in biological systems. Leading biologists point to assumptions in their arguments which have little to no bearing on abiogenesis theories or research.

Another draft -- Ec5618 18:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Minor thoughts/tweaks:

The modern concept of abiogenesis has been criticised by scientists, notably by Sir Fred Hoyle, Erwin Schrödinger and Hubert Yockey. It should be noted that despite the success these scientists have had in their respective fields of study, they do or did not have expertise in biology. Leading biologists point to fundamental assumptions in their arguments which have little to no bearing on abiogenesis theories or research.

Third draft. - RoyBoy 00:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy with it. Ideally, we would find a few more notable critics, though. Still, let's insert it. -- Ec5618 06:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Coo, inserted. Another win for Misplaced Pages! Huzzah! - RoyBoy 03:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Schroedinger

Hello. I would like to see reference to this paragraph :

"This argument is generally understood to assert false presuppositions, namely that that Earth is in a closed system, which it is not since it receives energy from the Sun."

Unless it's referenced, the claim within it counts as original research. Stefan Udrea 23:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm not a religious fanatic and I'm willing to be cooperative.I'm not trying to start an edit war or something...I just want to know which scientists spoke against Schroedinger's book

Stefan Udrea 23:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right in saying it isn't referenced, however, this shows a clear misconception of the nature of the second law of thermodynamics. It's probably not referenced, because most people find it obvious. I'd think we would have a hard time finding a source to state such an obvious thing. -- Ec5618 23:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's obvious that the Earth is not a closed system and Schroedinger didn't presuppose the contrary ;but this isn't relevant.The issue is much more complex than that.I will replace your rebuttal of his work with a more serious one that I've just found.

Stefan Udrea 09:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately the piece I found is copyrighted . I asked for permission to copy just a small paragraph ,please be patient. In the hindsight maybe "what is life?" doesn't belong in Abiogenesis at all. Stefan Udrea

If you have a source, quote or paraphrase it. We don't need to 'use' any copyrighted material. I'm not sure 'what is life?' should stay, though life, as seen from the perspective of abiogenesis is a viewpoint that should be mentioned. -- Ec5618 16:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Permission was granted. Stefan Udrea 06:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:How to edit a page, for a guide to Wiki-markup. Also, you seem to be implying that I had written the line suggesting Schroedinger was wrong because he thought the Earth was closed system. I assumed that the line was correct, and suggested that it was not attributed, because it was obvious. I didn't know Schroedinger hadn't made the claim.

That said, I don't quite like the wording of the new paragraph. It doesn't fit into the whole of the article, and uses unexplained terminology. It also talks of a 'we', which is against Misplaced Pages policy. Assuming you feel qualified to reword the paragraph, could you please do so? I'm willing to give it a shot, but I'm not quite sure what it is that is being said. -- Ec5618 14:37, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph in question is a direct quote from the website linked, I have added indent and itallics to it. Either paraphrase to better explain or add explanatory material to suppliment and tie it in for the rest of us. Vsmith 15:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you both for the suggestions.I'll try to paraphrase that quote.

Stefan Udrea 19:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm far from being satisfied with my section's current state;it's because I know some physics but little about biology.Now I'll go play in the sandbox :)

Stefan Udrea 20:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Panspermiites

Do the pamspermia advocates really fit as critics here. They simply pass the buck to elsewhere and don't really say much about abiogenesis. Hoyle's specific arguements against chemical evolution and abiogenesis perhaps, but not the panspermia bit. I reorganized the section to put the panspermians together, but really think they should be cut. Vsmith 22:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for grouping the panspermites together. As the article now clearly reflects, panspermia itself doesn't offer anything on abiogenesis, except in locating it far away, so it's less a criticism than a fairly uninterested hypothesis. We know that some of the basic organic chemicals can form in space, but there's little support for the process getting much further than that. We also know that, in principle, it's possible for single-celled life to be transferred to another planet by catastrophic events, but have no reason to think this happened. In short, it's boring. However, Hoyle's version is different. It's basically the same broken idea as Steady State, only applied to life. As such, it's an alternative to abiogenesis, but a really dumb one. Alienus 00:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge with Biopoesis

I support this. Alienus 03:40, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Conditionally Support - So long as all of the information is merged in, the abiogenesis article references biopoesis as another term for the same thing, and that the biopoesis article becomes a redirect to abiogenesis.

Removed extraneous links

I removed some extraneous links from the main article using the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style as a guideline. If you object, please don't simply revert the changes, but rather, comment in here which links should be re-added and give justifications. --Cyde 04:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Good Idea:--Wavesmikey 20:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)