Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ChildofMidnight (talk | contribs) at 00:43, 2 September 2009 (→Continuing an old discussion: copy-edit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

List of tablets on the Memorial to Heroic Self Sacrifice

I go to the featured list candidates page to nominate Timeline of the London Underground and what do I find but your nomination for the Memorial to Heroic Self Sacrifice. A very nice article (bit more than a list really) with excellent photos - lots of dramatic drownings, burnings and runnings-over. I've left a couple of comments and given it my support. --DavidCane (talk) 04:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

It's in that weird borderland between "list" and "article", but I think the "list" side dominates. I explicitly don't want it turning into an article, as it would end up content-forking a large chunk of Postman's Park. – iridescent 19:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: Replied to your queries there. The parent article is currently at FAC, so any comments made at one are likely going to be applicable to the other as well. – iridescent 22:07, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Request to any TPS who knows these things

Can any TPS who knows about poetry (Ottava and PoetTaxCorn, that probably means you, unless someone has a hidden depth) advise what the correct name for this style of doggerel poetry (by Hardwicke Rawnsley) is? – iridescent 19:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a type of ballad. You can tell by the repetition of sounds and the rhymes that close off the action. I'll see if I can classify what type of ballad shortly. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

By the way, there are quite a few ballads about Alice Ayers. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I can't think of the type of ballad - it is a Scottish variant that has a term that refers to watching (or guarding). It will come to me later. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(re post 1) I know, there are quite a lot of media of all sorts about her (everything from children's stories to pseudo-religious iconography); I'm giving dip-sample mentions to the most significant in the article, but I specifically want a link to Rawnsley as it shows that (a) the Great And Good were writing about her, not just the "she died for the Empire, you can too!" Henty types, and (b) that she was a significant enough figure that people were writing about her - and she was a recognisable enough name that she didn't need explanation - more than ten years after her death. This is going to be quite an interesting article, as it will be more than 95% legacy section; while dying rescuing children is admirable, and I'd love to think I'd have the same lack of panic in the same situation, she wouldn't ordinarily warrant an article - but the way every social movement from the hardline British supremacists to the socialist radicals to the Arts and Crafts Movement hijacked the tabula rasa she left, precisely because she had such a boring life and they could all project onto her, is fascinating. (The authorities were still naming streets after her fifty years after her death.) – iridescent 23:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(re post 2) Don't worry too much; realistically, "poem" is going to serve the 10 readers per day this article will get perfectly well. Most of them will probably be looking for Natalie Portman's character in Closer, anyway. – iridescent 23:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Border ballad. I am an idiot for not remembering this sooner. I was doing work on Walter Scott and it popped into my head. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! – iridescent 15:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Alice Ayres

Another great article. I see you're going for a Trifecta with Postman's Park and the memorial wall list. Great use of the source material for three good articles; I don't see any reason why this shouldn't succeed at Good Article nomination. I might do the review myself tomorrow.

It's OR I know, but I've done a bit of research in the 1881 census. The Chandlers were living at 26 Rosoman Street (Clerkenwell) with a David Ayres listed as brother-in-law to Henry. Although Mary Ann's birth place is not listed and Alice wasn't living with them at the time, David's place of birth is given as Isleworth. The 1881 census has an Alice Ayres born in approximately 1859 (the census records age rather than birth year) in Isleworth; she was working as a housemaid for a Doctor in Harley Street. Presumably her origin in Isleworth is why she's buried there.

The first paragraph of the introduction says she "ran into the burning building three times" to rescue the children. The account of the fire in the Times on 25 April 1885 does not indicate that she left the building and returned - what I think is meant is that she left the window to go deeper into the building.

For some reason, the Price references don't "jump" to the bibliography section like the Barrington or Cross ones. They seem to be correctly formatted, but I not familiar with the {{harvnb}} method, so I may have missed something. --DavidCane (talk) 02:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I can't find anything listing her birthdate (and given that even authors like Price, who've researched the subject far more thoroughly than me, can't find one, I suspect that there's no record). All Saints Church in Isleworth was destroyed in 1943, so I presume any parish records are lost. Her gravestone itself (right) only gives a death date and an age, which makes me think that even at the time nobody was sure. (Her father was certainly alive at this time – as her next of kin, it was him who was given her award from the Royal Society for the Protection of Life from Fire – but people were less careful about keeping records in those days.)

I'm sure the Chandlers in Clerkenwell are the same Chandlers – for a dealer in oil, paint and gunpowder it would be the obvious place for him in this period. 184 Union Street is more-or-less at the junction of the London, Chatham and Dover Railway and South Eastern Railway (adjacent to the original Blackfriars station, and a short distance from the LCDR's main goods depot at Blackfriars Bridge), so it would have been an ideal place for someone dealing in bulky goods to move. The Alice Ayres shown in Harley Street is presumably the same one, but NOR forbids.

No, she didn't leave the house; after her initial appearance at the window, she went back into the house four times (to get the mattress, Edith Chandler, Ellen Chandler and Elizabeth Chandler respectively). I've reworded the lead to "Ayres rescued three of her nieces from the burning building, before falling from a window and fatally injuring herself" – there's no need to give the full details, as they're given two paragraphs later.

In the context of the Union Street fire section, I think (I hope, anyway) the summary of events is accurate. This is a bit of a funny case when it comes to the whole "verifiability not truth" thing, as a lot of the press reports are inaccurate or contradictory about exactly what happened, but because Ayres survived for two days and gave an account of the fire, and because there are quite a lot of eyewitness reports, it is possible to piece together what actually happened.

This is the reason this image is uploaded at a bandwidth-wasting and browser-crashing 54 megapixels – the detail of Ayres at the window (right) and the crowd below with the mattress is the only eyewitness illustration of what actually happened that day, before the whole event started to get mythologised, and I think it's important that people be able to zoom in on the details. It also shows the layout of the front of the house, including the protruding "amphora" sign and the distance at which the crowd were standing from the house, both of which are key to understanding the story, as well as showing that the fire brigade weren't even trying to put up a ladder.

I have absolutely no idea why the Price link isn't working in the references. It doesn't work on the other two articles either – I can't work out why, as there's no difference in formatting between that and any of the other books cited. (The Arnold link on Postman's Park suffers the same problem.) It isn't too much of a problem – I'm sure our readers can scroll down – but it is odd. – iridescent 11:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

RfA

You have done enough editing on WP to be easily made an admin. Why not nominate yourself? You have been reverting vandalism too long to be just a rollbacker. ManishEarth 09:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Been there, done that, no desire to go back.  – iridescent 10:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Just a rollbacker, LOL. Iri, ever think that would be used to describe you? :) StarM 18:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Rollbacker and Autoreviewer I'll have you know, young lady. I'm not one of your Malliesque purists. – iridescent 18:08, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I think of it more as ascetic rather than purist. I don't want anything that some daft plank can arbitrarily take away in a fit of pique, or threaten to take away as a punishment for some imagined crime. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Didn't actually look at your userrights, I was going by what the OP said above. We all know you're such a slacker trying to get by doing just the minimum :p StarM 03:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Serious answer

Serious answer, as I never answered the original question other than with a flippant aside: ManishEarth, I've no doubt you meant it in good faith and thanks for the offer, but I'm not the right person to be asking. While there are some extremely good users among the current active Misplaced Pages admins, they tend to be the ones you don't generally notice because they don't get involved in admin actions very much. The whole Misplaced Pages system is currently extremely (some – not me – would say hopelessly) corrupt; I've been a part of it, and seen from the inside how poorly run the current system is, which simultaneously allows cranks, obsessives and outright psychopaths free rein on the grounds of "free speech", while often stifling people with genuine grievances for "disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point".

(If you want to see one of the thousands of examples of this, today I happened to notice this editor being threatened with a block for the "vandalism" of saying that ' has said that the misspelled title is "an artistic flourish. A Basquiat touch, if you will."' – and this little minidrama of "do it my way or you're blocked" is constantly repeated in every area of Misplaced Pages.)

I strongly believe that adminship should either expire, or at least should have an enforced desysopping periodically to let them see things from the other side; far too many of our problems are caused by an "old guard" who have got so used to bullying people into doing things their way – or at least, their every utterance, no matter how wrong or, worse, irrelevant, being taken more seriously in discussions than it deserves – that they've lost touch with the great mass of content-writers, vandal-reverters, script-programmers, image-creators, article-categorisers* and copy-editors who drive Misplaced Pages forward. I still have the right to request admin rights back, and if there was a specific task I needed them for I would, but I don't want to turn into one of the people who stomps around Misplaced Pages hassling people just because I can. – iridescent 22:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
*The article-categorisers are too often overlooked in any "important people on Misplaced Pages" lists, and there aren't enough of them, because it's tedious and difficult work with very little visible result. One of the main reasons Misplaced Pages works and Google Knol, Citizendium et al, and even the big guns of Encarta and Britannica are failing on the internet, is that Misplaced Pages has a hierarchical structure that's simultaneously intuitive, rational and unobtrusive, and most people seem to think that's something that happens automatically. – iridescent 22:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"I don't want to turn into one of the people who stomps around Misplaced Pages hassling people just because I can." That's a serious problem, and one which wikpedia refuses to address. There are no checks and balances, and as a result administrators are very reluctant to reverse the abuses of their fellow administrators, as all that usually results is a childish chant of "wheel war, wheel war". I don't believe that the present system is "hopelessly corrupt", but I do believe that those who fail to recognise its corruption most certainly are. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

We suffer because we're applying rules devised by a group of a few hundred people, most of whom had a shared background in computing and technical writing, to a semi-coherent (as a whole, not as individuals) rabble of 10,000 plus. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, it still works better than the more "rational" systems proposed elsewhere. (See my reply to Abd below for context.) It seems to be a rule of the internet that the more trivial the issue, the more venomous the argument – I suppose because when there's a serious point at stake, people are more willing to accept that other people will have different views.

Interestingly (well, stretching the boundaries of "interesting"), one of the most spectacular self-destructions of a user-generated site in the history of the internet was the self-immolation of the original user-generated and user-controlled Hot or Not. I was always interested in HoN as an experiment in bulk-user-moderated content that was peculiarly amenable to statistical analysis. Some of my earliest work on Misplaced Pages was, along with User:Sadi Carnot, a rearguard action to stop the wars on HoN from spilling over into Misplaced Pages (you may not be surprised to know how that turned out). In a truly bizarre twist, some of the leaders of the old volunteer-led HoN now form a significant chunk of the admin corps at Conservapedia. I'm not sure Schlafly has ever realised. – iridescent 21:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Who'd have believed that a bloody witch trial would be contentious?

Remind me never again to get involved in an article on any subject that has the words "Catholic Church" in it. I'd say more, but it wouldn't be pretty. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I've been reading that and I'm not sure what the heck the problem is, honestly. I got lost a while ago. I do tend to think that once you say "Catholic Church" anything can happen. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The only thing I can do now is to step away from the article, and if the nonsense continues to erode its FA status then take it to FAR. I've used up my reverts anyway, so if I look at it again I'll only get myself blocked for 3RR. Best just to ignore it now and let the religious warriors have at it. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:01, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Bizarre. Given that the context was fifty years of religious warfare, I can't see the issue. I don't think anyone seriously questions that witchcraft trials – in both Europe and the New World – were a product of the Reformation (and more specifically, the loss of the Inquisition as a means of social control); they appear as the Catholic Church weakens and tail away as the modern concepts of formal sedition law take over from the Star Chambers. – iridescent 22:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Further thought - although it's potentially pouring high-octane fuel on the flames, you might want to ask Ottava to poke his head in. I suspect he's one of the best-qualified people to comment on 17th-century religious trends here. – iridescent 22:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Ottava has already offered his opinion as it happens, entirely unsolicited by me. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Fuck 'em. I've put back your original text Mal. It's the wording the source uses and as far as I'm concerned accuracy to the source trumps any other bollocks they may come up with. --WebHamster 22:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm staying out of it now, as I know I'll be in for a 3RR block if I look at the article again. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Same advice to you I gave to Realist and Slim on the day Misplaced Pages lost its collective sanity; leave the article alone completely for a few days, then come back and clean up the mess once the edit-warriors have had their say. The end result is still the same, and it avoids all the "I have no opinion and I demand it be heard!" brigade who invariably turn up once an argument like this starts.

Actually, looking at your talkpage it seems you've already decided to do this... – iridescent 22:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Yep. I remembered that good advice and decided to take it before it was offered. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 22:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to see a real storm-in-a-teacup taken to insane levels, that really does put the serious issues of "were the Scots still Catholic after the Reformation?", "should sentence fragments be followed by a full-stop in alt-text?" or "was Bubbles the chimpanzee 'bought' or 'rescued'?" into perspective, have a look at the insane naming dispute, which has now attracted some of Misplaced Pages's most hardline edit-warriors, POV-pushers and outright loons, at Talk:Arbuthnot Lake. AKA Talk:Arbuthnet Lake. AKA Talk:Arbuthnot Lake/Arbuthnet Lake. AKA Talk:Arbuthnet Lake/Arbuthnot Lake. – iridescent 23:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

On a completely unrelated topic, I have a new candidate for the coveted title of worst ever photo used to illustrate a well-known celebrity who probably gets photographed a hundred times a day. – iridescent 22:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Adding u's and replacing z's with s's

Might I get you to peek through this previously mentioned rewrite to make sure I sufficiently Britishised it? Imagine me with my broad American accent reading this, peppered with Southernisms like "y'all" and Californianisms like "Dude, no way!" I feel like such a fraud. --Moni3 (talk) 20:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Will do - but (aside from a couple of exceptions like "advertize"), most "z" spellings are actually correct in British English (civilization, realize et al) – if anyone tries to tell you different, point them towards the OED. You might want to ask someone like Malleus to have a look as well; because I'm originally from the US I tend to slip into a transatlantic mix quite easily. – iridescent 20:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts:

• This one is jumping out at me at present due to this thread: while obviously, go with what the book says, but assuming the book is set in the 1870s, a lot of places that are in London today weren't considered part of London then and wouldn't have been referred to as such. The creation of the County of London in 1889 was the first time any real concept of "Greater London" came into place, and "London" as a single city covering the whole built-up area didn't come into existence until the London Government Act 1899. The most significant aspect likely to affect this article is that nowhere south of the Thames or west of the City – significantly, including Chelsea, mentioned in the article, and the theatre-and-brothel district of Southwark – was a part of London at this point; in American terms, it would be like calling Hoboken a part of New York City, or Oakland part of San Francisco.
• "Frank depictions of lesbian sexuality have been quieted by censorship that equated lesbian sex with aberrant mental behavior or employed it as an erotic element that is controlled by and for the benefit of men." is very misleading if you're discussing British literature. Sex of any kind is absent in British mainstream literature between the Obscene Publications Act 1857 and the end of the Chatterley ban, and in the early 1960s the floodgates open.
• "In the history of English literature, the only type of character who was able to enjoy adventures native to the picaresque novel were males who acted as the observer or stroller" just isn't true. Ottava can probably say more about this than me, but off the top of my head (depending on how loosely you use the term "picaresque") you have Fanny Hill, (arguably) The Canterbury Tales, and certainly Vanity Fair (Becky Sharp is practically the archetype of an English-language picaresque hero); if you stretch "English" to include Canadians, you also have Anne of Green Gables, and if you treat it as a novel rather than a thinly-disguised-autobiography, The Bell Jar certainly qualifies.
• "Hawes' latest role is starring as DI Alex Drake in the BBC TV drama series Ashes to Ashes" and "Jodhi May as Florence, who has since played Anne Boleyn in the BBC dramatisation of Philippa Gregory's historical novel The Other Boleyn Girl" jar quite a bit. What does a role in a 2008 TV series about time-travelling police officers, or a part in a 16th century costume drama (since remade with Natalie Portman – just saying), have to do with TTV? (While Rachel Stirling's career has not exactly gone from strength to strength, it seems particularly odd that relatively minor cast members get a "where are they now?" but not Stirling herself.)
• If there's any way to quietly get rid of "A persistent rumour claims...", it could probably happily be lost. Besides, I find it hard to think of a less appropriate cast than Beyonce Knowles and Eve Longoria, and assume it started as a joke somewhere. Probably here. – iridescent 21:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughts. Some replies:

• I haven't yet taken on the adaptation section. I'll do that over the next several days, probably rewriting it. I would agree that a false mention of that horrible idea of Beyonce Knowles and Eva Longoria should go, but it keeps getting added to the article. I've watched it for over three years. Would a blind note be better?
• What I know of London I have learned in this book, To Sir, With Love and Bedknobs and Broomsticks and a 6-hour layover at Heathrow. Hahaha. Want me to give you a guide? I might be able to sing "Portobello Road" for you. I'm sticking with what the source say on this one, but I'm also open to the discrepancies between historical reality and Waters' portrayal of the city.
• The source about frank depictions of lesbian sexuality was probably clearer, or I understood it to mean written by and for women as opposed to written as porn for men. I'll check the source and clarify as necessary.
• All neighbourhoods changed to districts. Appreciate the time and effort. --Moni3 (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

•  Done. Sufficiently Britishised. Although I'd have preferred to say corrected to use proper English. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 03:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

How can you preface a serious statement with one of those nasty and childish green graphics ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My  Remark: is this: now that she has  Reopened this can of worms, some may Agree with Sandy (with comments such as  Great!), others will  Disagree (saying  Works for me). The resulting discussion eventually be  Closed as  Inconclusive and  No action will result,  Unlikely though this may sound at the moment. Bencherlite 23:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

To be honest Bencherlite, I quite like what SandyG calls the "childish"  Done. She and I don't always agree, or indeed even usually agree, :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 23:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I've always liked {{done-t}} (✓ Done) and {{not done-t}} (✗ Not done), which have the same effect but without using images. Two of our less-well-known but useful templates. – iridescent 19:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Iridescent and Malleus! --Moni3 (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the adaptation section, I'd probably just mention that it exists, and a link to the article. There are some cases when it's worth going into more detail—on Postman's Park* I go into detail of the plot and cast to illustrate why I'm bothering to mention the movie—but in this case it's almost an "in popular culture" section. If the TV adaptation featured big names, it would be worth mentioning as a demonstration that TTV was being taken seriously by the mainstream and wasn't just a niche, but while Stirling's not a nonentity, I don't think she's significant enough to confer inherited notability. – iridescent 22:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

*Eleven days now at FAC and so far 0 supports and 0 opposes, if anyone feels the urge—I can't fix the problems with it if nobody even mentions what the problems are. Just saying. – iridescent 22:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

On the adaptation section, I've already rewritten it, making it more about Waters, the plot, and the characters, though Stirling does have a quote, since she does have a notable view on the main character. And it's a kickass quote. It made news as well for being bawdy and true to the novel. Three sources I've found have mentioned the Longoria/Knowles nightmare. Still not sure if I should place that in a blind edit, footnote, or what. At any rate, off to read an FAC about some show about a park... --Moni3 (talk) 22:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, another thought - is the American edition the first edition? The article talks about Waters being rejected by British publishers and thus contacting American publishers, but then says it was picked up by Virago which is a British company. It's not entirely clear where it was actually published first. (If it was first published in Britain, the British cover should probably be the cover-shot.) – iridescent 22:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Another thought (2): Do the British and American versions differ? (I'm always amazed at how different the US and UK versions of books often are. The most spectacular example I've seen is First Among Equals; I remember re-reading the British version years after reading the American one, and trying to figure out why I didn't remember half the characters.) – iridescent 22:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Another thought (3); careful about using the Daily Hate as a source, particularly as a source for a statement like "When news releases told of the BBC featuring swearing and sex toys, viewers began to protest". The Mail isn't really a reliable source on matters like this - it's an ultra-right-wing tabloid which mixes "diseased gay perverts are corrupting a thousand years of British morality" and "foreigners are coming to steal your jobs and women" ranting (the Daily Mail Headline Generator is remarkably accurate) with "are there aliens among us" credulity and an apparent obsession with proving that every substance in the world is either lethal or a cure for cancer. The likelihood that the Mail response to anything relating to homosexuality would be anything other than "decent people protested in their thousands" is zero. – iridescent 23:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

<reset>

• Yes, the image should be changed to the British edition. I'll do it. Might even be able to keep the American one because I recall a source mentioning it.
• Good to know about the Daily Mail. Actually, Tipping was not the primary target of that article, but that basically the BBC was going to hell in a handbasket because of all the randy sex on Queer as Folk. Perhaps I should clarify that the huffing and puffing was reported in the Daily Mail. It's worth it to say there were complaints, but perhaps the source might be considered. I don't know if this is significant, but the BBC seemed to reply "Eh, so what. Besides, it's on BBC2"...
• Feel free to give more tips as they come to you and you peek at the article. I'm still adding info to it as I find tidbits here and there to flesh out the concepts. --Moni3 (talk) 00:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Continuing an old discussion

you wrote:

• Re the 16 year old, if you mean WW she is still about from time to time – she was even on the main page a couple of weeks ago.

Yes, WW. What I was working on when blocked. It was ultimately successful, apparently. In other words, I'm not so hot with creating articles, but may be better at helping keep editors who have been badly treated.

• I still think the proxy model is unsuitable for Misplaced Pages, and I doubt you'll convince me otherwise. With 10,069,032 registered accounts, of which only around 10,000 are active at any given time, it's far too easy to build up unbeatable blocks of semi-active editors. Additionally, we don't have anything akin to parties and people strongly agreeing on one area can vehemently disagree in another – check out the strange bedfellows in the various columns at RFC/ACPD, for example. Besides, it would horribly skew discussions ("don't bother disagreeing with me, I've got 10,000 voters behind me").

You've made assumptions about how it would be used. What I have in mind is much closer to what you think might work.

• As I understand it, you're proposing something similar to the block votes of shareholders at a corporate meeting, but using the benefits of instantaneous communication technology to allow rapid shifts of individuals between voting blocs.

No. Not what I propose. Something very different and simpler, in fact.

• The advantage of "cellularising" the project would be that these issues wouldn't arise, as it would create a simple pyramid structure in which each cell is equal, not each member.

In a sense, that's more like it. Think of the delegable proxy structure as a communications hierarchy, not a control structure, formed spontaneously from the bottom if a significant number of editors name a "proxy," -- in Europe they call this an "advisor," which does represent some of the downward or outward flow of information, the proxy represents the upward or inward flow.

However, it could be used to elect a proportional representation assembly. (We currently vote on ArbComm and board positions, and sock arguments would apply there. The fact is that the last thing a puppet master wants to do is to have the sock name him or her! The arguments about sock puppetry are almost certainly false.) Just vote for the editor you most trust, and if every editor does this, a set of loops will be formed, and then editors in small loops can break the loop by naming an editor outside the loop, until the loop is large enough to be represented in the Assembly. That's more or less what Lewis Carroll came up with in 1884, now called Asset voting. But that's a voting application, not the core idea. Nevertheless, if we did elect such an Assembly, it would provide incentive to name a proxy. You'd gain representation.

No change in policy is involved. Outside of a possible election situation, an editor would gain no special privileges by being named a proxy, no "extra votes." In some situations, where a closing decider wants to estimate a general consensus without having a general discussion -- which is usually very impractical to actually do -- the decider might take a look at proxy assignments. It becomes a way of factoring for participation bias. In the other direction, if, say, all those who have !voted for a community ban are in the same "caucus," we'd have a sign of some kind of involvement against that editor. This usage of the proxies is simply information, not control, and the actual usage up to the one who wants to be advised.

The formation of editors into natural caucuses, though (a "natural caucus" is a proxy together with all editors who have chosen that proxy, all editors who have chosen the direct "clients," etc.), creates identifiable channels which can be used to negotiate consensus using small informal discussions, on or off-wiki. It's structure, the kind of structure that is necessary for group intelligence to exceed the intelligence of the individuals comprising it, efficiently.

Non-coercive, voluntary, simple, but what it could build is far from easy to see. While there could be a certain hazard if some special-interest group were to adopt this kind of structure, if everyone does it, there is no hazard.

Regardless, this is all castles-in-the-sky, since as we've seen in the last 24 hours the community won't take a governance structure imposed from the top, and the grassroots won't agree on such a radical change from below. – iridescent 18:26, 12 July 2009 (UT)

We'll see. Delegable proxy can start one editor at a time, from the bottom, and it has such low organizational overhead that it doesn't have to be highly useful to survive. At least in theory. It does create a cellular structure that would be theoretically, again, relatively immune to disruption and corruption. It may start off-wiki (actually, I should say, "is starting off-wiki." It is partially a device to keep retiring editors from completely retiring. Leave behind a proxy who will inform you if certain conditions or needs arise.

If DP were widely implemented, the community would have the ability to rapidly respond to any emergency, it could reconstitute the whole wiki if it were needed, it could raise whatever funding was necessary, and certainly it would be immune, if done properly, to central disruption, because it doesn't depend on on-wiki control or communication and filtering mechanisms. I would never appoint, as my proxy, someone with whom I had no means of direct communication, nor would I accept a proxy from someone I couldn't contact directly. Anyway, I hope this wasn't too much and that you are doing well.... --Abd (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Still don't see it. Either you work on a "one editor one vote and everyone is equal" principle, which is horribly open to gaming, proxies or not (just look at WP:RFA to see how well OMOV works in the Misplaced Pages context); or, editors are weighted, which just turns the project into a battleground between cliques. See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names and its talkpage (and its many archives) to see what attempting to shoehorn a Misplaced Pages discussion into a PR format results in.

"Proxies" only work if there are editors who broadly agree on most points (what you describe as "broad caucuses"), and that just doesn't represent the active editors at Misplaced Pages. If there's one thing the whole ACPD debacle, or the whole toxic mess bubbling out of the discussions about User:Mattisse and User:ChildofMidnight (and many others), do show, it's that even editors who are generally seen as peas-in-a-pod buddies can be diametrically opposed when it comes to 'major' issues (top-down vs bottom-up, central control vs decentralization, right-to-free-speech vs right-not-to-be-pestered-with-vexatious-posts...). A proxy-based model relies on people broadly agreeing; while that works in, for instance, the context of trade-union block votes, where the interests of members of a particular group can be assumed to be broadly similar, it doesn't apply here. (The contributors to the thread currently directly above this are a respectable chunk of arguably the most powerful of all Misplaced Pages's interest groups, because the FA/GA crowd and their hangers-on have the unique nuclear option of migrating en masse somewhere else and leaving Misplaced Pages as Facebook for ugly people, attached to a directory of rivers, TV episodes and asteroids. But there's little you'd get any of them to agree on. Head over to WT:FAC and say you'd like to hear everyone's opinion on alt-text, enforcement of the MOS and whether WP:WBFAN should be deleted, if you don't believe me.)

Misplaced Pages has serious structural problems, but it still works better than any of its rivals despite the time and money Google, Microsoft et al have thrown at driving it under. The we must change – this is change – therefore we must do this" argument (often followed by if we can't use my ball I don't wanna play) doesn't really apply to what is – despite all the critics, problems, and predictions of imminent doom – arguably the most successful information resource of all time. – iridescent 19:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, the Daily Mail rant popped up on my watchlist (which may well have been on target, I have no idea I've never read it) and I noticed I'm mentioned above. I couldn't quite divine what exactly I was an example of or whether I was in a pod with someone (I do hope they're cute!) other than perhaps to note that I'm a focal point for dispute? Or is the suggestion more generally that I'm toxic?

Anyway, I hope all is well in your neck of the woods. I don't particularly care for the Economist (magazine), they seem to rant on and on with the same tirade of more free markets are needed and America is bad/ evil place full of ignorant redneck gobbledy gook. And the Financial Times is very dry. The WSJ is much better written and has great feature stories. Did you know the lefties running Google have the Financial Times on their campus but not the WSJ because they're very PC (meaning they lack patriotism? :)

And y'all have those papers with the nudes on page 6 don't you? How Victorian! Nothing like that here, we keep those hidden away at the truck stops. But we do have the Enquirer and Weekly World News (if it hasn't gone under) which are filled with the most absurd exagerations and fantastic stories. Truly they are the only sources that can be relied upon to capture the high crimes and misdemeanor shenanigans going on at the top of the Democratic party. I guess it's a case where only periodicals that literally make things up all the time can fully capture the craziness accurately?

I'm sure I'll be misunderstood, what with the language barrier and all, but I'm just saying hi and doing some friendly rambling. Have a good one. Cheerios. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Postman's Park

On September 1, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Postman's Park, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Jake Wartenberg 11:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)