Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bruce1ee (talk | contribs) at 07:59, 13 September 2009 (→DYK nomination: thanks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is a Misplaced Pages user talk page. For the fictional wolf of the same name, see Carcharoth.

Archives

• July 2005
• September 2005
• February - March 2006
• April - May 2006
• June - July 2006
• August - September 2006
• October - November 2006
• December 2006 - January 2007
• February - March 2007
• April - May 2007
• June - July 2007
• August - September 2007
• October - November 2007
• December 2007 - January 2008
• February - March 2008
• April - May 2008
• June - July 2008
• August - September 2008
• October - November 2008
• December 2008 - January 2009
• February - March 2009
• April - May 2009
• June - July 2009
• August - September 2009
• October - November 2009

Peer Review of Zoroastrianism

Hey,

Would you mind Peer Reviewing the article on Zoroastrianism. The archive can be found here. Thanks Mr.TrustWorthy----Got Something to Tell Me? 18:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Afraid I don't have time right now. Sorry. It is also not a subject that grabs my attention either. You might be better off finding someone who would take more of an interest in the article. Again, sorry about that. Carcharoth (talk) 16:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Progress on archived requests for amendment?

Last month you was kind enough to state that you would seek to speed up the process on some requests for amendment in the Date Delinking ruling; cf. your edit here. I was wondering if this was to no avail? For example, clerk Hersfold archived my request just two days after your edit. Any remark would be most welcome, as I am, of course, disappointed about the failure of my request. Kind regards, --HJensen, talk 23:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Replying on your talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 23:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested arbitration case for 194x144x90x118

Hi Carcharoth, in regard to your comment on the requested arbitration case for 194x144x90x118, neither GTBacchus, FisherQueen, or Jehochman were involved in the Dreamhost dispute - they're role has been that of uninvolved admins. Also, my role was confined to that of MedCab mediator. PhilKnight (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. Still waiting to see what 194x144x90x118 (as one of the parties to the request) and my fellow arbs have to say. When I return to this, I'll probably address the point you've raised here. Carcharoth (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Link stylers

Hi. I just saw your request on the mailing list "Lists and redlinks and link maintenance" thread. I highly recommend adding

// Linkback: User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js
importScript('User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js'); 

to your /monobook.js. I've been using it for many months. I changed some of the default colors too. You can copy and tweak the last 5 lines from User:Quiddity/monobook.css to your /monobook.css. (My colors set links to: disambig pages get a yellow background, pages at AFD get a red background, redirects get a brown link color)

I also get a little use out of this js script, which adds a link to the toolbox when you arrive at a disambig page (from where you can highlight a title, click the toolbox link, and it will open the previous page and fix the disambig link with a "preview" and editsummary for you to save).

importScript('User:Magnus Manske/fixdisambig.js');

Hope that helps :) -- Quiddity (talk) 18:26, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll try the first one first. The second one sounds scary. When you put these scripts in, do you have to be careful about mixing them up? Carcharoth (talk) 19:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

(The second script is explained in a different way at User talk:Magnus Manske/fixdisambig.js.)

I've never run into conflict issues between scripts. The only problem with the linkclassifier is on really large walloflinks pages (150kb+) where the script can occasionally timeout.

I also use 2 scripts to highlight the usernames of admins (in pink) and my own username (in green). Check my css/js for details. Those coloring scripts all make scanning through talkpages, and my watchlist, quite a bit easier. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think it worked. There's a lot of different coloured links now. Is there a key to which colours mean what? Maybe List of colors?

• A - color:#002bb8
• A.stubcls - color:#5c2bb8
• A.new - color:#cc2200
• A.redirect - color:#00bb00
• A.self-redirect - background-color:#88ff88
• A.disambiguation - background-color:#ffff88
• A.deletion - color:#ff0088
• A:visited - color:#00155c
• A.stubcls:visited - color:#552c50
• A.new:visited - color:#aa4444
• A.redirect:visited - color:#227722
• A.deletion:visited - color:#cc2277
• A.broken-redirect - color:#cc2200; background-color:#88ff88
• A.broken-redirect:visited - color:#aa4444; background-color:#88ff88
• A.image.nonfree-media > IMG - outline:3px double #ff0000
• A.image.deletion > IMG - border:2px solid #ff0088
• A.image.deletion:visited > IMG - border-color:#cc2277

I'm also not 100% I know what each of the above mean. stubcls is stub class. Is self-redirect is a redirect pointing to the page it is on? What is "new? And from your css, what does "A.redirect, #bodyContent A.self-redirect" mean? Carcharoth (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

There must be an easier way than that to display colour samples if all you have is the hexadecimal code? Carcharoth (talk) 22:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

{{colorsample}} or {{swatch-inline}} for color samples. (found at Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Color/Templates) Try the ext links at Web_Colors#External_links for more tables, or generators.

In my css, the line "#bodyContent A.redirect, #bodyContent A.self-redirect { color:#772233; }" is just two selectors separated by a comma. Twas either copied from somewhere, or hacked together from User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css.

-- Quiddity (talk) 05:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Your comments on the Abd-WMC kerfluffle

I appreciate your response here but some of your comments raise more questions than they answer. For a start, you note that recently there has not been an active clerk on the case. Why was a highly contentious case left unsupervised? Note that I sent an email to clerks-l on 2 August asking for someone to step in and look over the case temporarily in Hersfold's absence. I never received a response. (I got an auto-ack, so I know the message was received.)

You also excused Rlevse's acting in an uninformed way by noting that arbs have a lot to do. Look, I know you guys are volunteers and you have a lot on your plate, but one of the first principles of any organization is that you don't volunteer for something unless you are able to put in the time to do the job right. There's no shame in someone stepping back if they're in too deep -- I've done that at work. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

• (1) I've now located that e-mail on the clerks mailing list. Was searching for "Boris", which didn't help. You are right, there was no reply. That does happen with mailing lists where no-one takes responsibility for incoming mail. We've sorted that problem out now on the arbitration mailing list, but I do see e-mail to both the clerks mailing list and the functionaries mailing list go unanswered. I suggest you raise this matter with the clerks (and maybe functionaries) and see what they say. As an arbitrator, I'm on both those lists, but I don't really want to tread on any toes over there, and ultimately, any rigorous attempt to ensure mail to other mailing lists gets answered needs to be addressed by the people those lists are for. If you don't get anywhere with that, come back here and I'll see what I can do.
• (2) As for the case being left unsupervised, that is something ArbCom should shoulder the blame for. Hersfold did warn us (and the clerks) as early as 30 July that he would be away. Unfortunately He is back on the 11th. The list of active clerks is here. I will post to the clerks noticeboard and then to their talk pages and try and get someone nominally volunteered and named as case clerk until Hersfold is back.
• (3) The workload can be discussed on the talk page of this report. Feedback has been minimal so far, so more feedback (please try and be constructive) would be good.

If I don't reply here in the next hour or so, it will be because I'm trying to rustle up a clerk. Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed response. I appreciate it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Notices left. I've bumped your mail up the mailing list by replying to it and pointing people in the right direction. Hope that sorts things out. Let me or the clerks know if that happens again. Normally, if you reply a second time asking if the first message was rececived, you will get a swift and apologetic reply. Sometimes the mails just get missed. Carcharoth (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

More stuff. Is Rl an active arb in this case (it isn't clear to me how I find out who is). If so, I find that odd, as he has taken to posting what I regard as highly partial evidence. Is it at all usual for arbs to post evidence? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Rlevse is active on this case. The list of arbitrators active on a case is placed on the proposed decision talk page when the case opens, and is maintained in the template used for that purpose and updated by the clerks during the case. In this case, it is here. As for arbs posting evidence, I can find you a few examples if you hang on a moment. Carcharoth (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not like it matters anyway. The decision clearly was made long ago, and the arbs aren't bothering to read the case pages before weighing in (as is obvious from Rlevse's and Bain's proposals). It's all a formality. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

That's not actually how it works. The way it works is that one arbitrator (the drafting arbitrator) takes a case, and drafts a proposed decision, usually (but not always) publishing the proposals to the workshop for comments first. That is where the other arbs usually see it first, and they then comment there (if they choose to - Casliber is commenting there at the moment for example). When I comment at a workshop page, I try to comment on the proposals by others as well. At a minimum, arbs should read the entire evidence and workshop pages and their talk pages. The drafting arb then modifies things according to the comments taken under consideration, and moves it to the proposed decision page. Voting then begins. Other arbs may think further principles, findings or remedies are needed, and may add their own, based on the reading of the evidence. Voting carries on. Usually, a coherent final decision emerges from this process. The point here is that hardly any final decision satisfies everyone, and that arbitrators are rarely swayed by vociferous support on the case pages for one side or the other (only a small fraction of the community bother to turn up at arbitration cases). My view (and you may of course disagree with this) is that arbitrators look at the evidence and policy principles, and vote based on that, rather than public opinion (and, a key point this, arbitrators are more likely to be swayed by good arguments in the comments, rather than a forest of "support" and "oppose" votes). Though even on the proposed decision, not all arbitrators agree. It might seem that things are a formality at this stage, but I've seen cases change a lot in the closing stages, so it is not really useful to say it is a formality at this stage. Carcharoth (talk) 22:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't see any indication that Bain has "read the entire evidence and workshop pages and their talk pages." His findings are so out of touch with the evidence and diffs that he almost seems to be making up the facts as he goes along (e.g., as I note here). The clear impression is that he's pissed at WMC for the block so he's going to construct his own reality in terms of the case itself. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

@C: examples: yes please William M. Connolley (talk) 22:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

William, the examples of arbs presenting evidence that I found are here. 1, 2, placeholder for some more that I can't find right now. Arbitrators sometimes also present evidence in the proposed decision, as here (though Kirill may dispute that). Hope that is helpful. Will add more as I remember them. You could go through the evidence pages of all the cases this year, but I think most of the cases of arbitrators bringing out new evidence is on proposed decision talk pages. I believe some of the evidence in the Scientology case was presented that way, though I didn't follow it closely enough to be sure - I do know arbitrators in that case went beyond the evidence presented, in order to present a more complete picture. That is often needed in order to avoid those who present the evidence from biasing it. In this case, the fact that you carried out a block is clear, and that fact is not in dispute. What I would do here is ask various people to answer questions about what happened. That is more useful sometimes than trying to compile diffs to demonstrate what may have happened, or what people may have intended. Carcharoth (talk) 22:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for those diffs, which are unarguable. It seems curious behaviour to me, but then I should know Arbcomm isn't a court. I find Rl's evidence distinctly partial, and in stark contrast to the delicacy of the clerk in the next section. In this case, the fact that you carried out a block is clear, and that fact is not in dispute. - yes, I agree with that, but don't understand why you're mentionning it William M. Connolley (talk) 08:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In case it helps to understand the situation: I didn't find a quotable source, but in the continental European legal tradition the judge is supposed to make sure he has all the evidence before him that is necessary for a just decision. In particular it's the judge who interrogates witnesses, and the judge may introduce evidence just like a party. (Similarly, a prosecutor must prosecute if there seems to be a crime, and must not continue the prosecution if he believes the defendant to be innocent.) So it's really just a matter of what you are used to. Hans Adler 13:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

It isn't the UK (or US?) tradition. But whilst it might be good to have the judge interrogate witnesses, that isn't happening here at all. Actually I think it would be good for arbcomm to ask witnesses to explain their evidence, but I've never seen that happen William M. Connolley (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Clerking of Abd-WMC

Unfortunately I have to recuse from this case. Many, many, months ago I was wrongly accused of sockpuppeting by Abd. Seddσn | 18:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Categories and tags

This discussion may also be of interest? . Hiding T 14:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William_M. Connolley

I'll take it. After reading, however, I think I still need bringing up to speed. hmwitht 16:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Aaaaagh!!!

And here I sit, testing alterations to my CatScan-rewrite, wondering why The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún doesn't show up on the list of pages without {{ME-project}}... --Magnus Manske (talk) 21:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry!! :-) Please feel free to remove it for testing purposes... Carcharoth (talk) 21:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Tracking substituted templates

Hey Carcharoth. Long time no see (if you remember, we collaborated on fixing VFD archive pages way back when). I recently created a method for tracking substituted templates. It has bothered me for a long time that there was no good way to do this that I knew of and I think it will provide important data if targeted at particular templates that can reveal patterns about behavior and so on. At this point I would be surprised if you weren't scratching your head and asking why I'm telling you this. Well, after I finished designing the template scheme that allows such tracking, and after added tracking to a few templates, I did some searches to see what other normally substituted templates this would be useful in and came across this thread. After reading it (and seeing the method you came up with which I hadn't thought of; yes, clever:-) I wondered if anything had ever actually been added to the BLP enforcement templates to track them, and if not, whether you thought they would be good candidates for adding tracking now. I took at look at their codes and didn't notice any dedicated images or the type of commented-out-link tracking you came up with, leading me to the conclusion that nothing was ever implemented.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It will take me a while, but I will try and get back to this at some point. Carcharoth (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Real Championship Wrestling

I need someone to figure out for me if the page of Real Championship Wrestling is notable or not? I have provided sources from third parties both times I tried to make the page, but no one seems to believe pages made by the States Athletic Commission as well as other pages. I continually try to figure out what it is missing and do not get any responses from the people who put it up for deletion, which says to me that they are looking to be vigilantes also know here as "barnstomers." Any feedback I can get is great, thanks (Bes2224 (talk) 04:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)).

You might be better off asking someone else. I would suggest someone, but my mind is drawing a blank at the moment. Sorry. Carcharoth (talk) 01:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Mythdon proposal at ANI

This message is being sent to inform the Arbitration Committee of a sanction proposal forbidding me from editing Arbitration Committee pages and talk pages. Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Mythdon and Arbitration Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Copy Edit

Hi, I was wondering if you have time to do a copy edit on Davenport, Iowa. I'm almost ready to renominate it for FA, and need some good copy editing. Thank you! CTJF83Talk 18:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I probably won't have time, but I hope you can find someone to proofread it. Let me know if you can't find anyone else. Carcharoth (talk) 01:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok CTJF83Talk 17:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply

I have replied to your comment here and have struck the comment that you say breaches the conduct probation. Hopefully, striking it settles it. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

And I've just asked you a question at the talk page as well. Please respond to both statements. Thanks. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Since it appears that you requested enforcement, please see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Mythdon 2. Enforcement is being requested. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 01:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

LP Injunction

I'm not sure, do you think that of perhaps all involved parties should be topic banned for the duration of the case? Steve Crossin 01:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, yes. You would know who they are, wouldn't you? I'm going to post to the evidence talk page asking the editors presenting evidence to cut out the edit warring and reverting while the case is in progress. Not sure what good that will do, but I want to draw their attention to the proposed injunction. Carcharoth (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps page protection would work better? The involved parties would be LP, GainLine, Falcon9x5, and possibly Cathar11. I'm fine with copping the topic ban too, if it levels the playing field. Steve Crossin 01:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you summarise your thoughts here please? Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 01:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

There's no reason why my name should be associated with plagiarism

I am not certain of the real difference between appealing to an oversight member, like yourself, before engaging in an oversight request and simply proceeding with the appeal, so i am choosing the former as a measure of lesser escalation. Or perhaps you should just tell me to proceed with the formal request. But i'll make this simple. I have requested that the page Talk:Minimed Paradigm be completely deleted including history (not an earth moving action). Why my request? To prevent further damage of what has already occurred as a consequence of this discussion page in my life outside Misplaced Pages. Here is one reference to the case: Henry Delforn (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make a request for oversight, please see WP:OVERSIGHT rather than ask me as an individual - the oversight team (the people on the oversight mailing list) will be able to explain better than me whether this requires oversight or not. I see that the ANI section here has been marked as resolved, and that Xeno has deleted the page revisions in question. I suggest you talk to User:Xeno about this if you want to follow it up further. Carcharoth (talk) 09:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

• Henry, I've already deleted the page in question. Its revisions will not be viewable by anyone except administrators. –xeno 13:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm totally confused

Carcharoth—thanks for your note on my page. I've contacted Tiptoety about it. Remedy 9.3 says:

9.3) Tony1 is indefinitely prohibited from editing any policy or guideline page related to to the linking or unlinking of dates, as well as any related template page.

The edits you linked to concerned the use of the possessive apostrophe. The link you provided to Remedy 9.3 is of the original wording, which I presume has been changed as a result of the motion. Tony (talk) 23:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Oops. I might have linked to the wrong edit there! Let me check. Carcharoth (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Carcharoth—thanks for your time in clearing this up. It was dizzying! Cheers. Tony (talk) 00:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

No problem. As for possessive apostrophes, I loathe them (well, the plural possessives anyway) and much prefer trying to work out what "Vienne" can be disambiguated to... Carcharoth (talk) 00:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

If only English hadn't settled on this badly engineered final S for plurals and possessives—then we'd all be sweet without those little stalactites. The Germans did better. Tony (talk) 14:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Sci-journal-stub

Just to let you know that a subtemplate you created Template:Sci-journal-stub/transclusions snapshot has been listed for deletion. I'm not sure if you've been notified. Would you like to comment at Misplaced Pages:Stub types for deletion/Log/2009/August/11? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Moved to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Academic Journals/Sci-journal-stub transclusions snapshot, link updated. Hope that's ok. –xeno 16:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

That's perfect. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 05:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Saruman

If you look at WP:GAN, Saruman is there...needs a reviewer... was musing on doing it myself but figured you might like to do it....Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the thought. Not sure, but maybe I'll have a look! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 00:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You like noise?

"Keep the signal-to-noise ratio low" is a request for more noise and less signal. Which, for an arb case like this, is the natural state anyways. :-) ATren (talk) 01:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Oops. You are right. Pity I can't change the edit summary. Carcharoth (talk) 01:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Random notes

Re, (1) WMC has informed selected cabal members that he is out of the country on holiday until later this week (I think he told Hersfold about this too), and (2) I hope you meant "keep the signal to noise ratio high" (not low) ;-) cheers Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and yes, that was me getting things the wrong way round. If I do that again, I'll leave the rest of the voting until tomorrow. Carcharoth (talk) 01:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter (September 2009)

The Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter
The Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter Issue 1 (September 2009) Content News and announcements Want ads Feature: Article rescue as a team effort Featured editor: MichaelQSchmidt

This could be thoroughly chilling.

You wrote, in the current RfAr, I would not object to Abd posting lots of thoughts in his userspace, but I would be opposed to him and others linking to lengthy posts in his userspace.

How about outside writings? Carcharoth, have you thought this one through? I was shocked to see you propose a limitation on others linking to my writing, of whatever length. It was utterly out of character.

The topic ban on Cold fusion is thoroughly chilling, I may not continue to edit at all if that ban passes. It's clearly based on a content position, because I was not tendentiously editing the article, I was following normal BRD process, and mediation was successful as far as it has gone. I have no problem with an article page ban, because if I'm seeking consensus, and I am, I don't need to be the one to actually edit; however, if I'm not allowed to make self-reverted edits, it can become too cumbersome. I have no problem with prolixity restrictions -- unless I can't link to deeper discussions, using hypertext techniques to control the actual problem with prolixity without dumping the baby.

Why not edit in other areas if the topic ban passes? Well, Misplaced Pages has been very important to me. But Cold fusion is a huge issue, of great importance overall, and I intend to continue to expand my knowledge of the field, and may become COI, which would limit me from the article page in any case. I have to decide where to put my energy, I have limited time left (I have cancer, Carcharoth, and while it is early-stage, it has reminded me of my mortality). If Misplaced Pages bans editors simply because they become knowledgeable in a field, recognize article imbalance, and begin to work to balance it, opposed by a cabal (and, yes, there is a cabal, just not some secret conspiracy, but something more obvious and probably more dangerous to our neutrality), and is therefore banned, then the fundamental neutrality policy has been corrupted, and the corruption confirmed at the ArbComm level, and Misplaced Pages becomes dangerous, in real-world terms, and I'd have to conclude that it should be exposed and opposed, until and unless this situation is corrected, and, of course, I'd do that off-wiki, should an appeal to the WMF fail (and I fully understand the difficulty of that; Pcarbonn tried.)

Very good things can become very harmful. Thanks. Your careful thinking on many topics has been quite encouraging to me, and if I had my choice of mentors, it would be you. Or you as the ArbComm regular contact, with another editor as actual mentor. --Abd (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

We had a case where an editor on the 9/11 conspiracy articles was writing stuff in his userspace and others were discussing things with him there, or proxying what he was saying. I don't want that situation to develop here. As far as what will happen following the case, I am prepared to discuss (on-wiki) some of the things you talk about (depending of course on the outcome of the case), but I am not prepared to be a mentor or ArbCom contact for you. If the mentorship or supervised editing remedies pass, you need to contact ArbCom direct about that. Carcharoth (talk) 18:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Cabal

You wrote: It may look like a cabal, but it is not, in my view. What it seems to be is editors with the same viewpoints being drawn to the same discussions, and editing in a way consistent with their independent views. While this is not a cabal, when the same disputes get rehashed time and time again with the same people, something does suffer in the process. What is needed is fresh new views, and people willing to discuss sources and articles, rather than engage in battleground mentality. Not everyone does that, but some on each side do stray that way, and Misplaced Pages and its articles suffer for that. Carcharoth (talk) 04:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

It may look like a forest, but it is not, it is just a bunch of trees independently growing. It may look like a tribe, but it is not, it is just a bunch of people living their lives in similar ways.

It may look like a cabal, but it is not, it is just a bunch of editors acting independently.

That's not quite a cabal. That's a "faction." A cabal is a faction which moves beyond that independence and which holds a whole constellation of opinions that are interconnected. Tribal affinity is natural. But when tribal members begin to automatically support members and oppose non-members, to adopt a common view that is firmly adhered to across many situations, we call that "tribalism," or even "racism." To prefer members of one's own "race" may be natural (race is an illusion, but illusions are real, so to speak), but "racism" is pernicious.

For example, to hold an opinion that global warming is real and that attempts to discredit it are fringe is just an opinion, and may be independent. (The concept of human independence is pretty shaky, people do tend to think in "herds.") But if this is linked with opinions that, for example, administrative recusal policy is a danger to the necessary function of administrators, fringe ideas should be excluded, not merely balanced, and sources from "fringe authors" should be rejected as unreliable, regardless of who published them, "civil pov-pushers" should be banned, etc., etc., we have much more than a simple natural faction, defined by POV. We have a cabal, and when members have admin tools and use them in the service of the cabal position, we have a dangerous problem.

I saw the cabal activity first at RfC/GoRight, it was very, very clear, though I didn't think "cabal," I thought "tag team" and "admin abuse." In RfC/JzG 3, you can see cabal activity; the topic of that RfC was JzG's use of admin tools, while involved. JzG used admin tools while involved. Yet the preponderance of opinion expressed in that RfC was that JzG was fine and Abd should be banned. These were largely editors opposing my work because they supported JzG and his work supporting the cabal. And you can see these patterns across many discussions. The apparently independent opinions are not, they are tribal in nature.

They are not, in themselves, reprehensible, but large groups of people, through individual actions which are each legitimate expressions of opinion, can do great damage. To avoid disruption, Carcharoth, I believe in majority rule, in fact, but with a majority that understands the power and efficiency of consensus, and, increasingly, people do understand that, and my work is to enable the "silent majority" to function, coherently and intelligently and efficiently. It can be done, and this is, to me, much more important than Misplaced Pages, Misplaced Pages is merely a possible application. That is why, if there is sufficient opposition here, I move elsewhere.

Thanks. --Abd (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Faction is a good word. Better than cabal. My view is that opinions can be both independent and "tribal". But this is not the right time to get into a discussion about this. This would have been better as some hypothetical debate, not the central part of a case that you tried to make it. If you have more to say in this section or the one above, it would be better said at the case pages. Carcharoth (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

No, Carcharoth, this was for you. I've already written way too much in the case pages and, paradoxically, not enough, but I won't be able to do anything about that. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 22:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

hols

I see your comment that I should comment. I'm on hols. H should have told you. Back tomorrow. Crapberry insuf due to volume William M. Connolley (talk) 15:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Blackberrys cannot cope with bloated arbitration pages? That's hardly surprising. I think lots of systems squawk and die under that sort of load. Carcharoth (talk) 09:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

That's not what I meant!

In reference to opposing the ban because of my petition, the mediation page is handled by Cryptic62, who takes care to keep topics very focused and removes walls of text if they are not useful and closes topics when they are done so they can't be dragged along all the time. The restrictions put on Abd are not enough to stop the disruption he would cause at Talk:Cold fusion. The mediation allows Abd to participate in spite of being banned from the article. If you aren't going to pass the ban because of my petition then I'll just withdraw it. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In this remedy, could you change your comment to reflect that I withdrew my proposal? --Enric Naval (talk) 08:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot about this. Will do that now. Carcharoth (talk) 09:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

My response is the following: , . Please note my concerns about arbitration-mediation etiquette. You might want to also ask the mediator whether a "clear the air" session following the case is needed, as mediation involving participants in a contentious and (at that future point) closed arbitration case might cause problems. Carcharoth (talk) 10:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not sure of what a "clear the air" session is :-( but I'll ask the mediator about it. Notice that the mediation page has stricter limitations than those placed on Abd (for example, only one topic open at the time, so there is not the problem of Abd opening new topics while people are still disagreeing with him in the old topics). --Enric Naval (talk) 21:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

"clear the air" is agreeing to move on from any disagreements that arose during the case. See the wiktionary definition. But you are right, you need to ask the mediator, as it is up to them as to what to do once the case has concluded. Carcharoth (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Back to the proposal to recodify civility

Carcharoth, please consider revisiting and commenting on the remaining issues. Tony (talk) 02:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I've commented there. Thanks for the note. Carcharoth (talk) 09:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

In response to your previous points, I've expanded the lead in the blue box. What do you think? link. Tony (talk) 14:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Question on your philosophical page

Hi, Carcharoth. I have posted a question on your User:Carcharoth/Arbitration philosophy and pledges page. Bishonen | talk 14:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC).

Thanks for the note. I'll say something there soon, after I've dealt with some other talk page messages. Carcharoth (talk) 09:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I forget to say I have now replied over there. Carcharoth (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I have replied again. Bishonen | talk 20:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC).

Arbcom E-mail

I've sent one to arbcom-l that is related to an ongoing case in its final stages, but it is in stasis, apparently. Just so you know it is there. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I passed it through so it's arrived now. Carcharoth (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Milomedes and venues

Thanks for your comments on the NLT request. I understand where you're coming from. I did think twice about whether the request was the right venue to present the diffs of Milomedes' behavior. He is obviously unable to directly respond, which is not ideal. Additionally, the block (and subsequent request for ArbCom attention) were framed as a narrow issue of WP:NLT rather than one of Milomedes' behavior in general. All of those things argue that I should not have posted, and should have sought another venue.

At the same time, I think that (what appears to me to be) a pattern of using intimidation against other editors is relevant when considering an unblock on WP:NLT grounds, as is the fact that similar threats have been made by this editor previously, although not reported. That was the sense that led me to post the diffs.

I take your point about an RfC, but I'm not sure that would be the right venue either. I considered filing an RfC during my interaction with Milomedes but decided against it at the time. I later became more concerned because the patterns I'd observed directed at me seemed to be repeated whenever this editor encountered disagreement. But how does that translate into an RfC? RfC's are supposed to focus on a single concrete dispute - I don't think I could legitimately "certify" an RfC against Milomedes, regardless of the concerns I and others have about his approach to this project, because that approach is spread out as a pattern over numerous disputes. If he interacts with one or two users per dispute, and threatens them, then there is never really "critical mass" to meet the technical requirements of an RfC, though (I would submit) there is ample evidence of a real behavioral issue.

Anyhow, just wanted to follow up on your comments. Thanks. MastCell  21:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I've always found it strange that RfCs are meant to be limited to a single dispute. That has never made sense to me, as there are times when you need to have some way to address a pattern, or series of disputes. Where should someone start when they notice a pattern like that? As for intimidation, I've seen admins use a mild form of as well, especially when they are too involved to use the block tool, saying things like "if you carry on like that, you will end up banned or blocked" (i.e. by someone, but not them). It might seem like an honest warning, but it can be very intimidating as well. But yes, the diffs you pointed out are concerning, and if you did file an RfC, I think the pattern of behaviour would make it a single 'point' of concern, and hence something suitable for RfC. Carcharoth (talk) 21:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but I've seen plenty of RfC's shot down or deleted for what I consider overly technical reasons, involving a close parsing of what constitutes a "single dispute" (check this log for what I consider a particularly egregious example). And the likelihood of an RfC effecting a positive change is, in my admittedly jaundiced view, very low. The lone "success" I've seen was probably Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/JzG 3, where I think JzG was actually convinced to exercise greater restraint and civility... but we all know how that ended up. I haven't considered it a good trade-off in terms of my time up to this point. To be honest, I don't really interact with Milomedes since I've unwatchlisted Broda Otto Barnes for my own sanity, so it's more a general concern about seeing other editors subject to the same treatment. And I'm not sure how far I really want to go with that. MastCell  23:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Due process in banning and your comments at Abd-WMC

Just dropping a note to say that your comments at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William_M._Connolley/Proposed_decision warmed my heart, and I hope others took note of them:

1)"a consensus among uninvolved users" and the use of "an appropriate venue" is rare - more commonly, the discussion is at a drama-filled location, and includes involved users, who are deemed to form part of the consensus and

2) The initial review should be brought up by the user who has been topic or page banned. Cases where the banning admin, or a user supporting the ban, brings a ban to a community noticeboard for review, can appear like the seeking of an endorsement, which is dynamically different to a review. In effect, it is a double-whammy, first the admin imposes a ban, then someone else or that admin gets the ban rubber-stamped by the community. That is not how independent reviews of a ban are meant to work. The only way the community can properly review a ban is if they have the information presented to them properly, by both the banning admin and the person who is banned. I would also quibble with "reasonable steps" - in my view, talk page notification of such bans, and logging them somewhere, is a must.

I suggested that we create ad hoc randomly generated juries. Or maybe make every Misplaced Pages user who's reached a certain number of edits and has edited within a certain number of days part of the database. If their names are pulled, they can say yes or no on whether they want to participate, and then they have to investigate and reach a decision. Of course, it's hard to guarantee that people read and make rational decisions, but it's better than the rambling mess that happens at ANI. The decisions can then be appealed to ArbCom. II | (t - c) 02:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

two questions about dreamhost

would you consider http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_34#DreamHost "Ah, I see that Guantanamo247 is a known sockpuppet of a longtime troll on the DreamHost boards. Interesting.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)" with a link to http://bob.dreamhosters.com/, which provides the user's alleged real name, to be a violation of wp:outing? also, would you say it's appropriate or acceptable behavior for scjessey to have called 194x144x90x118 a "problem editor" an IP editor a "problem editor" who made "undiscussed" changes, even though that is a lie, and then reverted me as "rv problem editor". then jessey went to my talkpage to warn me about my "wrongness . at that point, i'd had enough, so i moved the thread to his page, and asked rather nicely and clearly not to contact me on my talk page because it felt harassing. and not to respond to this. just leave me alone.. so what does jessey do? even though i had moved the conversation to his talk page and requested very clearly not to contact me on my talk page, he immediately posts on my talk page a diatribe about how he can post a message on my talkpage whenever he wants to . this is par for the course for jessey, and this is all directly related to dreamhost, but is it acceptable behavior? Theserialcomma (talk) 04:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

What you have posted above should be copied to one of the case pages, such as the evidence page or the evidence talk page, and not here. This will allow others to see and discuss what you have said. I can't comment until I've looked more closely at this. It would also help if you summarised your editing history at that article. Carcharoth (talk) 09:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realize at the time that might be a concern. Now that I think about it, though, I think that posting evidence of a long-term off-wiki campaign against an editor being brought here should not be a violation of the spirit of WP:OUTING, though it may very well be a violation of the letter of the policy.

As far as the discussion about Scjessey's editing behavior goes, I'd think that would have been much more appropriate for the DreamHost arb case than one brought against 194x for his behavior across 3 completely unrelated topics. It feels more like distraction when raised here. Carcharoth, do you think that the scope of the case should be formally expanded to cover all DreamHost issues, since you've been thoroughly evaluating the history of that article?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

In my mind, the case was always accepted to examine the behaviour of all parties in all those disputes, not just the behaviour of 194x in those disputes. Looking at just one side of a dispute rarely tells the full story of what has been going on. I've been looking at the history of the DreamHost dispute because it has been going on for so long and there are persistent claims that need to be addressed or dismissed. If I've missed anything in my timeline and comments at the evidence page, or misrepresented anything, please do comment on the talk page over there. Carcharoth (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I definitely don't see any misrepresentations. The only significant dispute I don't see you touch on there is the one about talk page archiving (45 v. 90 days v. never). I'll review my evidence and see if there's anything I need to add. You should also take a swing through, as I'll probably come up with a prosy description, and you've been cutting right to the core of things. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Scjessey linked to a bunch of archive dispute diffs, so rather than recategorize them in my own section, I'll just let them stand there. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

i am going to have to decline taking part in this. i just don't have the time. whether you decide the evidence i presented is relevant or not is up to you. as for whether sarek was outing, i think he was because there is no guarantee that the evidence on the off-wiki page, including the guy's name, is accurate. some website says name X did Y harassment, but how do we know it's true? that is why i think it's outing. it should not automatically assumed that because dreamhost has a webpage outing a harassing ex-customer, that their conclusions are 100% true. they are not a court of law, and there is a liability and a COI in trusting what ex-customer.dreamhost.com says an ex customer. based on that line of reasoning, i would say linking that page is outing. just because dreamhost says ex-customer harasses them, it doesn't mean sarekofvulcan, a happy dreamhost customer, should trust the information and post about it on wikipedia. Theserialcomma (talk) 22:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly why I didn't think of the OUTING guidelines when I posted the link -- I only saw a long list of alternate accounts that that editor had used in the past. That his actual identity might be one of them went straight over my head. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

oh, i guess you missed the only part of the page that is written in LARGE BOLD on the top of the page that says his alleged full name and what city and state he is from, along with his alleged personal website. maybe that part wasn't there when you linked it? Theserialcomma (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

well, i guess that's not the case because according to the wayback website (it shows old versions of websites), even in 2007 it said his name in BIG BOLD on the top of the page. do you still think it's not outing to link to a page with someone's alleged full name/city and state? or was this just an honest error? Theserialcomma (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Guys, please, take this to one of the case talk pages. This isn't the right place for this. Carcharoth (talk) 22:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

well, since i said that i don't have time to do so, and sarek probably won't be reporting himself for outing, and you're the arbitrator, i guess we've reached an impasse. you can choose to do what you want with the info i've presented here, but i don't plan on presenting it twice or arguing further. thanks. Theserialcomma (talk) 23:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

i'm not sure if my previous argument made sense. what i meant was, whether the information sarek linked was true or false, it was a link to a webpage which exists to specifically out a user's alleged real identity and city/state. i don't think whether the information is true or false should have anything to do with the intent. if i link to a site.com which says sarekofvulcan is really XXX YYY, whether it's true or false it should be considered outing. Theserialcomma (talk) 01:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

That would be Garrett Fitzgerald, of Brewer, Maine. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

as an admin, you should know it's not WP:outing if the user already discloses their identity on-wiki, as you already have, which makes it curious to me as to why you would post this information as if it's somehow relevant to you outing Guantanamo247. when you linked to http://bob.dreamhosters.com/, which blatantly attempts to out user: Guantanamo247, had he already disclosed his real name on-wiki? because if so, then i apologize for accusing you of outing. but if not, you violated a strict and unambiguous harassment policy: Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, whether any such information is accurate or not. Any edit that "outs" someone must be reverted promptly, followed by a request for Oversight to delete that edit from Misplaced Pages permanently. i suggest you request oversight on this. btw, do you run this outing site? or how did you find out about it otherwise? does scjessey run it or did he notify you about it? Theserialcomma (talk) 19:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"The dispute"

I'm a little uncomfortable with the sections that make it look like this is a DreamHost-only dispute. After all, the request was filed by someone completely uninvolved with DreamHost because of 194x's behavior in his sphere of editing. I'm not trying to duck sanctions here -- if I'm found to have done something sanctionable, so be it. It's just that this problem is wider than DreamHost, and focusing there would not properly convey the scope of the issues. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The findings about 194x144x90x118 also cover his activities elsewhere. As to your other questions, I've made a reply at the proposed decision talk page, and that is where any future comments about this case from you or anyone should go. Carcharoth (talk) 23:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello Carcharoth. I want to use this opportunity to thank you for your efforts related to my arbitration case. I also want to say that I disagreee with the assesment that I fail to "recognise the need to change". At the section http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:194x144x90x118#Finding_it I speak a little bit regarding a edit dispute that I was involved with over on the Bobby Fischer article and it was atleast my intention to express regret regarding that matter since my actions regarding that edit were simply no good really. I do however realize that you may have read that section but may have deemed that "insufficient" which is perfectly alright. Either way I wanted to thank you for your involvement since it somewhat helps out with my faith in humanity which is something very important to hold onto in order to function in this world.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 21:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't help myself but say though regarding the Bobby Fischer article that while my dispute regarding that one edit was simply ridiculously badly handled by me that since then I have contributed I'd say extremely well to that article and had a positive impact on it. Thanks again.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't look closely at the Bobby Fischer article, but aside from trying to give too much weight to Fischer's claim that he was still world champion, I think you did make some good points. But really, this is too little, too late. It is good that you are finally acting calmly and showing you can talk to people without being caustic and outspoken, but the best you can do would be to repeat what you have said, but at the proposed decision talk page, not here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

A message to the Arbitration Committee

This message is being sent to all non-recused arbitrators.

I have sent a message to the Arbitration Committee at the amendment page, that mentions what I feel that I need to say to ArbCom before the ban takes effect.

The message is here.

Thank you. Mythdon (talk • contribs) 22:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

DreamHost/194 case

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		I said it before, but I felt it needed to be said again directly to you. I was extremely impressed by the great lengths you went to in the 194 case with respect to discovering and presenting background information, and writing up fair summaries of your findings. This kind of effort is very welcome indeed. Thank you. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:43, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. One point to make about other cases that you have expressed discontent with is that those cases were far more complicated than this one. I don't want to get into details, but I think you know the sort of cases I mean. Those are the monster cases that in all likelihood will end up returning to ArbCom several times before things settle down completely. Carcharoth (talk) 22:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, I quite understand. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination

Hi. I've nominated Arthur P. Luff, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Misplaced Pages:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article here, where you can improve it if you see fit. Bruce1ee 12:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying my hook here. I couldn't have done it better. --Bruce1ee 07:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)