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Two years ago this January
And I still see people ranking their personal interpretation of WP:CIVIL above everything else. Above NPOV. Above V. Above NOR.
Oh wait, those are the Simplified Ruleset, aren't they? The basis for all of Misplaced Pages?
Silly me. Here I thought we were here to write an encyclopedia, and that while a civil environment furthers that aim, the Civility Police are generally counter-indicated by the chilling effect and escalation to which their actions usually lead.
Have you ever tried to compose a pun in Deer? Screw up the verb conjugation, and they'll just think you're a moron. They'll probably still maul you. D'oe! --KingÖomie14:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd most certainly cite your name if you were POV-pushing on When Animals Attack!. (I thought that'd be more than a stub when I thought it up, but I'll be arsed to change it now)
I've wondered if my name might be considered an encouragement of vandalism...it's actually my excuse for my bad housekeeping. The Aunt bit I cannot deny: I have thirty nieces and nephews. I guess that would go towards explaining the entropy bit as well... Auntie E.17:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Your changes got me going, as it were, so much of the credit is yours! I was stuck, and never would have been able to get this done without your hard work, so thank you! KillerChihuahuaAdvice20:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
ANI Notice
Hello, KillerChihuahua. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
re your notice
Hello KillerChihuahua. I'm archiving my talk page, but I replied (in an essay-like way) to the issue that you alerted me to--the one that began the ANI thread--here, if you didn't see it. I could refactor its contents for use in some 'review' I suppose, but that hardly holds any promise!
I'd like to state (somewhere, why not here!) that as the first editor to remove that tag on the article in question, my intent was to minimize the chances of any of this happening. I can't think of an action more in this encyclopedia's interest than avoiding these entrenched, content-less discussions that charge up people needlessly, gain little for the encyclopedia, and divide editors. The page was on my watchlist; it was not a matter of me going out of my way; and I'd not have commented further, despite strong feelings, if I hadn't felt psychologically dragged into this by the "removing tags is evil and people like Outriggr are attacking me" line. Regards, Outriggr (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Banned user
Hi. The banned user Rbj has been editing Planck units as 74.104.160.199 and 38.104.186.254. Please see Discussion Page for that article, section titled Hi Rbj. The tell-tale signs for those who know Rbj are attitude, phrasing (eg 'sorta') and subject interests (eg Marriage). I have chosen to stop editing Misplaced Pages but I'm making an exception for Rbj on this occasion. Thanks 121.223.69.138 (talk) 06:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for posting my concerns on Admin Noticeboard. I have updated your comments there with the necessary proof but somebody will need to make sure the issue doesn't go to sleep - the Noticeboard is a VERY long page. Thanks again. 121.222.35.162 (talk) 23:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Owing to length of Admin Noticeboard, I've now posted my concerns to Uncle G ( see Uncle G talk). You might be interested in my comments there as you were involved in the original disciplinary action against rbj and maybe you and Uncle G can work this through together. At the moment, I'm the only one driving the issue and yet I promised myself not to edit Wiki anymore, so I really want to leave it with someone else - please. 121.222.35.162 (talk) 03:35, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
An apology
KC - we've had problems and we've had fights. However, those fights were on reasonable grounds and I apologize for fighting with you. It saddens me to see someone who has no sense of our community, consensus, or any respect what so ever threaten you like that. It is one thing to fight with someone, it is another to purely bully them in a way that is unacceptable on Misplaced Pages. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hatchet buried, cemented in, and flowers planted over the grave, with pleasure.
I don't know what to think about this latest stunt from Sandstein. I've not been able to follow the CoM situation with any detail, so I had reserved judgment, but this latest block is beyond the pale, and his reactions to criticism is so hostile and dismissive it is clear he's not willing to accept any opinions which don't support his actions. It seems to me there are several views: that Giano should not have been blocked; that Giano should have been, but not by Sandstein but the length is ok; that Giano should have been, but not by Sandstein and the length is too long; and that Giano should have been blocked, its ok Sandstein did it and the length is fine. The last is S's view of course; but I cannot say I see any significant support for it. Certainly not consensus. Yet Sandstein has not said he'll leave Giano alone in the future; he's not removed the block as not getting community support; he's not only not acted on criticism received, he has rejected all criticism whatsover, and even gone on the attack against the critics. This is very disturbing. I had always thought Sandstein was a sensible admin. I don't think I was in error, but I think his sense is getting clouded out by stress? Involvement? Burnout? Something is affecting him. KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Our disagreement at ANI
KillerChihuahua, I am sorry to see that we seem to be taking a very contrary stance to each other in the current Giano thread. While I stand by what I wrote, I regret this confrontation because I have, so far, formed a generally good opinion of your work. Could we, perhaps, discuss this disagreement here, out of the ANI spotlight, with a view perhaps to get a better understanding of what both of us seek to achieve? Best regards, Sandstein 15:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
If you wish. You "have argued that you should be blocked for editwarring to restore a personal attack, and in fact I intend to block you should you do this again." - this was directly to me.
You characterize my restoration, once, of Giano's comment, as "editwarring". I object, strongly, to such aggressive framing of restoring a post which another editor removed.
The edit you linked has the edit summary of "please discuss this with G.)" This is advising discussion, rather than removing another's comment. It is, as OR pointed out, restoring a comment which was arguably improperly removed.
On that same page, I had removed a comment I thought was a personal attack; another editor disagreed and restored it. You did not block them. Nor did I, nor do I think a block would have been appropriate. Your personal view is that the content in Giano's post is a personal attack. You are entitled to your option. You are not entitled to go running roughshod over everyone enforcing your personal opinion about what is and is not rude.
Blocking for personal attacks is clear: the attack must be "egregious" - like "You are a fucking whore and you shit out of your mouth every time you talk. If you try to edit this page again I will find you and fuck you over!". That is probably a comment people would not strongly object to blocking for. Characterizing someone as a fool, which may be interpreted as saying they are behaving foolishly, is borderline at best.
You are not considering that removing another person's comments is often considered a blockable offense; I did not block the person who removed the content,but advised they discuss it with Giano rather than remove it.
So we have two comments which some find NPA violations and some do not. I submit to you that I don't consider the person who restored the personal attack against me to have been edit warring, as there is room for disagreement on what constitutes a personal attack; that I blocked no one and threatened to block no one; and that you've done precisely the opposite.
You originally stated you thought I should be blocked for restoring a comment and advising discussion, but said you would not do it. You then said you were arguing for such a block. Now you've threatened me with a block if you see me restore a talk page comment which you personally think is objectionable. I'm missing where you are trying to do any good on Misplaced Pages at all and fail to see why I should not assume you're going to block me for anything you see which you object to - as you have already done to Giano. In short, I'm having trouble thinking that you are thinking clearly, and I know you're not "use(ing) the block ability sparingly".
And finally, why are you here? You say above "I stand by what I wrote" so I have now been informed you stand by threatening me with blocking, for suggesting discussion instead of removal of a post. TPG, removing other's posts, these are all things which have much disagreement, to the point many believe no posts should be removed regardless of how egregious the attack. You have your view, and you are willing to block me in order to punish me for not following your interpretation! You have no room for respecting that I have a different view and that view is valid. You have threatened me with a block if I don't follow your instructions! Allow me, with all respect, to say that is complete and utter bullshit, bullying, and dead wrong. One puppy's opinion.
Okay, how to best format this? Maybe the editwarring part first. The comment was added by Giano, removed as an attack by Tintor2 (talk·contribs), restored by Giano, removed by Tintor2 and then restored by you. According to our policy, "an edit war occurs when individual contributors or groups of contributors repeatedly override each other's contributions, rather than try to resolve the disagreement by discussion." Your restoration of the comment was the fourth in such a sequence of back and forth, hence my assertion that you were edit warring. I find it surprising that you, an administrator, "object, strongly, to such aggressive framing of restoring a post which another editor removed." One half of every edit war is always "restoring a post which another editor removed." Sandstein 17:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
So now I'm tag teaming? Enough, Sandstein. You're not interested in getting feedback or resolving this; you're clearly here to prove how right you are and how wrong anyone else is. I'm done, at least on this page, at least for today. I'm too damn sick to deal with this. KillerChihuahuaAdvice17:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hmmf. Sorry that you're not feeling well, had hoped your return meant a recovery. Do please get well soon, which is much more important than wikitrivia. Best wishes, dave souza, talk18:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
hey, hope i didnt offend with my remark on sandstein's review page. i was just noting how it could appear to those with a different point of view. not that you asked for it, but here's my (admittedly naive) take: There is one faction of editors who are all about content, and another side that cares more about verifiability. this is similar to the delete/keep crowd, but different. it seems that the content people spend more time in non-controversial, academic areas, while the verifiable people are more active in highly-contested or nationalist/fringe areas where NPOV and OR are constant problems. sooo ... the quality-content people think that someone who doesn't know about a subject shouldn't be questioning its references or the accuracy of its statements. but, for editors concerned with verifiability, the FAR is a good thing. they don't see how that editor was being unreasonable by wanting to be sure all of the statements were sourced and there was no OR. this isn't a statement on anyone's motives, just how editors with different backgrounds might view this incident. well, like i said, i dont know much about this, i could be wrong. i can kinda see everyone's side here. hope you get better soon. untwirl(talk) 03:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Stalking the sick (get well soon!) puppy's pages :) ... for inspiration
FYI: New Signpost solicits "opinion" pieces ... and I submitted(as an experiment, with nearly zero expectation it will be anything more than an amusing surprise to the editor)"Two Misplaced Pages opinion sonnets linked by 'civility'" :) ...
... and the second line of the second one refers to (and links to diff of) "Sweet pup's manifesto". Again, I believe this to be of no consequence, but letting you know of the link in case the editor solicits a limerick or two from you in response. LOL (If there's been some horrible breach of protocol, please bark below.) Cheers, and get well soon. -- Proofreader77 (talk) 06:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Not sure whether to bring this up, or let it die. But I just noticed you replied to my comment a few days ago on ANI, re Giano/Sandstein. That, I suppose, is why it's probably a bad idea to comment on a page and then un-watchlist it.
It was not my intent to offend you, and if you look again you'll see I phrased it as a rhetorical question, or a request, not as an accusation. Still, it was exaggerated, and I'll apologize for that; exaggeration during an already heated dispute is dumb.
what I was *trying* to say, is that - even considering the rationale in your edit summary (which I did read at the time) - the effect of your revert was to restore, yet again, an inflammatory comment in a situation that was already obviously heated. There were several other approaches you could have taken besides restoring it. I found it at odds with the philosophy shown in your earlier request to me that I remove a sarcastic comment, not directed at anyone in particular, in an RFA. Just knocked my sense of symmetry out of whack. If Collectionian had called Giano a fool, and been reverted by someone else, would you have restored that comment too?
Anyway, sorry to have upset you with my ill-worded comment. Like I said, maybe this is all better left in the past, so I'm happy to discuss more, or let it drop, or agree to disagree, your call. But I didn't want to leave your comment hanging unanswered. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:43, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
As I understand it, it's inappropriate to remove someone else's talkpage comments, unless they're blatant personal attacks (which I feel is arguable in this particular case). By contrast, it's perfectly reasonable to request that someone remove their OWN comment. --KingÖomie16:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi Puppy, sorry you seem to have all this flak because of me dropping a loaded revolver for Sandstein to pick up. It's a pity we don't have a mailing list of our own to avoid these confusions, but there you are - we don't. His multiple blocks of late have all been, to my mind, OTT and his refusal to contemplate his own fallibility equally concerning. I had emailed Arbs about it over the last two weeks or so and initiated discussions on-site, but no one was concerned - so he had to block someone slightly more "high profile" so people could see what he is like. The fact he was supported by the Eastern European Mailing list is even more concerning, there is an entire bundle or emails entitled "Sandstein needs support" - and indeed, he got it and it buoyed him further. That I find terrifying and in need of investigation. Many, many brilliant editors (eg Ghirlandajo) were driven from the project by such people - it has to be stopped. Some of Sandstein's blockees are still more or less blocked because of it as people seem to hold him in some authoritative awe. So, knowing he was desperate to block me, I took drastic action and now is the time to "fess up" as the British kids say. I was concerned that Wehwalt's opening comment , had blown the game, but no one picked up on it. I expect many will want to ban me now for showing them exactly what Sandstein is (Misplaced Pages always likes to shoot the messenger), but there was no alternative, all other avenues were explored and had become a dead end. He has proved himself to be one big hungry fish who swallowed the hook - and I'm very good a fishing. At least people can see him for what he is - even I never imagined he would threaten to block you for just disagreeing with him. The tools are really not safe in his hands. Sorry you got caught in the cross-fire. Love Giano (talk) 18:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
User talk:Mattisse/Monitoring
I am posting here to reduce drama. I agree with G-Guy that comments about other than Mattisse's actions and what to do about them are unhelpful and inappropriate on the monitoring page or related talk page. Concerns about individuals related to an incident involving Mattisse are probably best dealt with by addressing that person directly, or - if serious enough - on an appropriate forum or notice-board. If you are not sure that Philcha was helping Mattisse you may consider a) That is a judgement for Mattisse to make, as she is the one who will suffer the consequences of taking Philcha's advice; b) Raising the matter with Philcha; and c) That it might be worthwhile reading the ArbCom case on Mattisse, and the Plan that came out of it, as there is a lot of misunderstanding of the role of those who signed up to the Plan. G-Guy has put a link on Mattisse's talkpage to this comment by myself as he feels it sums up the situation quite well.
It is worth remembering that Mattisse is responsible for her actions; those she has listed as people to turn to for advice are not responsible for her actions. People may select a range of advisors in order to get a range of opinions, and then choose to take the most appropriate advice from the opinions offered. It may be difficult for you or I to assess why Mattisse selected those she did, but we should allow her the freedom to make her own decisions and mistakes, even if those mistakes lead to her returning to ArbCom. There seem to be a number of people whom Mattisse did not select to advise her who are giving her advice which perhaps makes it more difficult for her to decide on the best course of action to take. SilkTork *16:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I know you have been involved in conversion therapy, and I was wondering if you could give advice on this. BG has decided that treatments to help people with unwanted same-sex attractions has nothing to do with Homosexuality and psychology based entirely on one person's breakdown on major areas of psychological research. He brought it up, and I disagreed with him. He didn't like my response and so he just deleted the whole section. I reverted it. He put it back, and I reverted it again. He deleted it four times, but it doesn't break the 3 revert rule because he wasn't reverting the first time. I mean, you can't just mass delete a section you don't like, and then keep deleting it until no one can revert you any more. Shouldn't we have to discuss this on the talk page first? What are my course of actions? It can't be that he can just delete anything he doesn't like for whatever reason. How can I address this without getting into an edit war? Joshuajohanson (talk) 01:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
The change was discussed beforehand. Mish and I agreed that the section should be removed. Joshuajohanson was the only editor to object. There already is an entire article devoted to conversion therapy, so it doesn't seem to make much sense having a long section on it in Homosexuality and psychology. There is no evidence that attempts to change homosexuality are a major part of the article's subject, however it is defined, and the lead provides some evidence they are not. BGtalk04:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
That's edit warring, Please read WP:EW and WP:3RR. 3RR is NOT a license to revert three times. You were edit warring, and had I seen it I would have blocked, BG. Enough of this bs. "discussed" does not mean "I had consensus" and you know better. I was just checking in between other things, I have to run but I will be back. I strongly suggest you cease your combative behavior. I'm not impressed with your actions nor your ridiculous excuse for edit warring. Joshua, you should not have reverted either - you're almost as guilty as he, and blocking you for edit warring would have been fair. I swear, I'm seriously thinking I'm going to put the whole damn page on a 1RR rule and block anyone who exceeds that if you people don't cut it out. You're acting like POV warriors not responsible editors. Puppy has spoken; puppy will be back. KillerChihuahuaAdvice14:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments on the editor behavior issues. Misunderstanding Misplaced Pages policy is easy, and not the same thing as deliberate bs. If I was mislead into thinking there was a consensus, it was partly because WP:CONSENSUS states that, "In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it comes from a minority or a majority." It is difficult for me to make sense of that passage, unless it implies that, at a certain stage, arguments that are of poor quality (which is what I judged Joshuajohanson's arguments to be) can be disregarded. If that understanding is incorrect, please explain what it does mean. Do you have any comment on the content dispute itself? BGtalk06:50, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, quality of argument... I didn't write that bit, so I'm not positive what is meant,but IMO it means if someone says "Well, I'm not thrilled about it but ..." that's not a strong argument. But there needs to be no serious arguing left. If you make an edit and someone reverts, you did not have consensus. Obviously there are situation where there is an editor who is a vandal or serious, unreachable, POV pusher. If everyone on a page thinks one thing, and one lone person holds out, the rest can effectively tell him "dude, you're arguing against consensus" because here on WP we use the term more like "supermajority". True consensus means everyone has signed on, even if somewhat reluctantly, and that should be your goal. You don't tell them your rationale and then whoosh, you're done. You must convince, persuade... and compromise. They have their views, too, you know. You're not listening to them, and you are not willing to give some ground, and you're also not persuading them. You usually have to do all to reach consensus. Until you do, you'll have edit wars. I'm not going to play referee here between a bunch of people who only want their own way and cannot play well with others. You all need to actually try to find common ground. Respect each others views. Y'all figure it out. KillerChihuahuaAdvice08:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I came here because I want to know what is the correct course of action. I have tried to discuss this with BG, but his arguments made no sense. The argument that he brings up here that there is an entire section devoted to conversion therapy was never brought up on the talk page. I don't want to spend time arguing here, because I would rather have him bring it up on the talk page than here, but it is misleading because the paragraph was not about that. His argument was that it didn't follow the lead, which I suggested to change the lead. Also, I don't know where Mish and BG discussed this, but it wasn't on the talk page. You said you won't play referee. What am I supposed to do when someone makes arguments don't make any sense and insists on changing it even after I revert it? I swear if you look at the talk page you will see that it was his arguments that don't make any sense, not mine. I don't want to get into an edit war, and I admit I'm not perfect either, but I want to know what the appropriate course of action would be. It seems the only choice I have is to let him do whatever he wants or get in an edit war. Joshuajohanson (talk) 15:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Joshuajohanson: Your arguments may make sense to you, but so far you do not seem to have convinced other editors of your position. I don't think that Mish would endorse my behavior, but for the record, she did appear to agree with me that this content should be removed, eg, by saying, "Perhaps Psychology of homosexuality would be a more accurate title - but whatever you call it all this stuff about conversion therapy belongs somewhere else - psychologists views of conversion therapy - or psychological views of SOCE? It is off-topic." That's there on the talk page, in the "Psychology and homosexuality" thread. Paying more careful attention to the talk page might help matters. KillerChihuahua: thank you for acknowledging that the policy is unclear and that how it is interpreted is partly a matter of opinion. I realize that unclarity of policy should not be used as an excuse for poor behavior, nevertheless, it is a problem in its own right, and needs addressing. BGtalk23:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I am seriously unhappy I logged in and checked since again, I am short of time. BG: You are wikilawyering. Your statement that I confirmed that the "policy is unclear" is twisting my words so far out of shape the original meaning is not recognizable in the wreckage. You are wikilawyering in the extreme, you're being passive-aggressive, and you're beginning to piss me off. Now, get your content dispute off my page, and do not quote me on anything, especially policy, because you misuse my statements. Do not reply to this post. KillerChihuahuaAdvice17:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
My dear KillerC, I would like to apologize for my confrontational tone in the last day or so. Although you have worked hard and given me some useful information, I was being very defensive. Actually, you are helping me to handle a delicate and tricky situation, and I owe you my gratitude an support.
See also my response to Durova on my user talk page.
I have been accused of drama mongering so I will not add further to the length of that thread if I am not mentioned there. If you think it is meritorious, could you raise the idea that Law was aided in gaining adminship by one or more administrators (close friends) who knew the nature and history of his account? Now that Casliber has resigned, I find it exceptionally unfair that those parties are not being called to answer for their actions. Casliber stood aside, did nothing, and chose to resign. How about those who actively encouraged granting of sysop access to Law? Jehochman14:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I am still reading this over; my one clear thought at this time is that it is reprehensible and unacceptable to have known and remained silent. Lara twice states that she values friendship over policy; that she has, and will, ignore the trust the community has placed in her in order to further her friend's aims (get his back is the phrase I think she used) and her response to concerns voiced has been "get over it". I cannot fathom why no one is as appalled as I at this gross abuse of trust. That said, I do not wish to speak in haste, so please allow me time to digest and consider this matter. KillerChihuahuaAdvice14:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Adding: to those who accuse you of "drama mongering" I would say "were there nothing here, I would have nothing to be concerned about. An admin who willingly and unashamedly states her friends come before policy here might have her friends gratitude but she should not have Misplaced Pages's trust, and to say so clearly is hardly 'drama-mongering'" In short, why are you letting them bully you into silence at a clear wrong? KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Tznkai asked me to pipe down. I disagree, but when somebody who's apparently neutral makes such a request, I'm going to heed it. The situation is so despicable, I may need to speak out no matter what the consequences. Jehochman15:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect, I disagree strongly with Tzn's reasoning. He said it was "pesonal" and all I see is a gross abuse of the community's trust, and you voicing concern at that. That is far from "personal" and I can only think that Tzn didn't read as carefully as he should have. I repeat that you were bullied into silence, and you took the first "neutral" request and bowed out under pressure. If you wish to remain silent, that's your business, but IMO it is a pity you let yourself be pushed into it. KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
It's hard to speak up about clear breaches of policy and trust when one is swatted down with the carry-all put-down "drama monger". The truth is, there are so many breaches of trust and policy going on that if stuff like this was dealt with straightforwardly, it could break the site. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Hard, but not remotely negotiable. I do not think that "if stuff like this was dealt with straightforwardly, it could break the site" any more than I think that was a particularly good argument for keeping slavery in the South prior to the Civil War (If we abolish slavery, it will cause financial collapse and ruin) Sure some people will lose their positions; they damn well should. One puppy's opinion, yours may vary. KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Your take on that war may be mistaken, but that's not what we're talking about here. My mistake was, I didn't mean to say nothing could be dealt with, or that most of this couldn't be handled in careful steps. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we're misunderstanding each other, here. Your post makes no sense as a reply to what I meant with mine. Not terribly important, though, so simply ack that we are missing each others meanings here and let it go? KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
At least two admins knowingly nominated or supported Law's request for adminship which ended at (101/23/4). I think this was a gross abuse of trust, and I call upon the community to ban these admins from sysop access. ~~~~
I think drama will ensue. I think any remedy attempted will ensue in drama. I think there will be those who will want to shoot the messenger. I think there will most assuredly be those who, like Lara, "back their friend(s)" whether they are right or wrong. And I will support this if you post it. KillerChihuahuaAdvice15:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Not enough wikifriends? Is that what we've sunk to? I, thankfully, have ethics. Knowing I am doing the right thing shall sustain me if and when "friends of..." attempt revenge for my voicing my concerns about such blatant lack of ethics. Hochman, write the damn thing in my sandbox and if you are intimidated or concerned, I'll put the darn thing up. KillerChihuahuaAdvice16:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. I was waiting for Risker's opinion on whether an RfArb or an RfC should be the next step before I filed an identical case. This absolutely needed to be done. Karanacs (talk) 17:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh and thanks, much appreciated - I think I figured it out the same time you did, and posted that while you were posting here, but that in no way negates your helpful post here. I am frequently slower to figure things out, and you were very kind to try to help me out here. Much appreciated. KillerChihuahuaAdvice00:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
