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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Vintagekits (talk | contribs) at 16:46, 15 November 2009 (→Block and associated discussion: r). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Since you continue to be disruptive..

Take 48 hours off, VK. Your attacks on Elonka are outside the lines, and you should know that by now. SirFozzie (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Yawn! exact reason?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Personal attacks and disruptive editing. I've brought it up here. SirFozzie (talk) 17:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am quite astounded by your retarded logic! Not sure why because I shold come to expect it to be honest. So who am I attacking and what is the attack because I cant figure it out.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well?--Vintagekits (talk) 19:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagekits (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I dont know why anyone ever does one of these because they are never overturned and fellow admins always see things from the other admins perspective. Sir Fozz says that I have been disruptive and made a personal attack yet refuses to clarify the block, which is poor form. I wasnt being disruptive at all - I hadnt been involved in the revert war that was being discussed and I never suggested that Domer should ignore the probation only that putting him on probation was wrong - I wasnt alone on that. So there can only be the personal attack issue - I made no personal attack, I asked Fozz what was the attack and who was it made towards? Sir Fozz certainly does have a COI with regards me so maybe that clouded his judgement.

Decline reason:

You clearly don't want to understand the meaning of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA. Look right above this unblock request for a perfect example of why you shall remain blocked. I am declining your request for unblock because it does not address the reason for your block, or because it is inadequate for other reasons. To be unblocked, you must convince the reviewing administrator(s) that

• the block is not necessary to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, or
• the block is no longer necessary because you
  • understand what you have been blocked for,
  • will not continue to cause damage or disruption, and
  • will make useful contributions instead.

Please read our guide to appealing blocks for more information. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Vintagekits (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagekits (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

there is no personal attack. I didnt not attack Elonka, she asked what Domer meant by his comment, I explained, she was happy with the answer I got. As per usual just because an American see a swear word they automatically think there was a personal attack - there wasnt. Dont judge us by your cultural standards. There was no personal attack. Vintagekits (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Decline reason:

No one appears to have objected to your first edit to that thread, but the second one constituted a personal attack. Per your block log, this does not appear to be an isolated incident. I suggest that you consider modifying your behaviour to reflect Misplaced Pages standards, rather than implying that you are being singled out due to cultural differences. Dekimasuよ! 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

What "second bit" - throw me a fecking bone here and explain exactly why I am actually blocked instead of having me chase my tail.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

This edit. Dekimasuよ! 00:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You dont like making it easy do you. What EXACTLY is the personal attack that warrants a 48 hour block.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

What a load. You just refactored this page to remove the links to the ANI thread and previous attempts to explain it to you. I'm revoking your talk page access for the duration of your block to avoid you're wasting any more of other's time with this foolishness. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:53, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The fact that, considering you have a block list that is literally as long as my forearm you still don't get what you're doing wrong here makes me a sad panda. Which, in itself is odd, since I'm not a panda. It does still make me sad, though. Have you ever considered maybe going somewhere else on the internet? HalfShadow (talk) 00:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(EC x2) I have not always been Elonka's biggest fan, and for all I know she may not have made the correct decision as far as Domer48 is concerned. There is nothing wrong with questioning the probation itself. To that end, however, it is unnecessary to disparage Elonka herself; a review can take place without such comments, which are not conducive to a productive editing environment. As a corrollary of what you can see at the top of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, comment on the action, not on the administrator. If you really feel it is necessary to review an administrator's action on a wider scale, there are other venues for that which are more productive. Likewise, note that WP:NPA says that "Recurring attacks are proportionally more likely to be considered disruption." Much as in the case of the probation mentioned here, your history of being blocked for personal attacks was likely considered as a contributing factor when deciding to block your account. Dekimasuよ! 01:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ban

As you already know, you have been indef'd and banned per this ANI thread. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

FYI to all the summary in the block log was the result a wrong pasting job. It should have been this — Rlevse • Talk • 03:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have restored your email and talkpage rights. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Rlevse. Vintagekits, please set a good example with your communications. I've vouched for you to a certain degree. Jehochman 15:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Jehoch, which is in effect, SirFozzie's 48 hours block or Rlevse's indefinate ban?--Vintagekits (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

For battling POV and suffering for the project I award you this.....

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		Glad to see some one has had the ability and tenacity to defend NPOV against the imposition of POV-by-numbers Sarah777 (talk) 09:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Jeez Vk; you break my heart! Why keep effin' and blinding at people when you know what will happen????? Still, hope you get back. Maybe look up "apology" in the dictionary and practice in front of a mirror - without head-butting the glass :) Sarah777 (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm.....Maybe I should be apologising: it seems you were merely explaining the phrase "cop yourself on" when an Admin interpreted that as a personal attack. Bad call. Sarah777 (talk) 10:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Not banned yet

The debate about blocking or banning is still ongoing at ANI, as such VK should be permitted to edit his talk page. Everyone has a right to defend themselves before a sentence is passed. There seems to be a lot of unssemly and undue haste on this matter - why?  Giano  10:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have to say this looks like a witch hunt. As I look at it, it is beginning to stink. A discussion about a possible ban was opened... a dozen or so people voted straight away to say ban... and then people tried to close the discusion AFTER AN HOUR and impose a ban. Sounds like some canvassing was going on there and some people letting their hurt feelings over rule their reasonable side. Having had a look into this yes VK has some WP:Civil issues but really... complete ban after an hour's discussion? I have to say I think a number of editors should step away from this issue completely. --LiamE (talk) 10:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to my request for copies of emails on this subject, I have received this from Vintagekits, I mailed back and asked for his permission to post it here - he agrees. It was sent to RLevse half an hour or so ago, perhaps when he get's out of bed, (as we have all been now for some hours) he will respond. I think VK makes a reasonable request and point:

"To RLevse: The discussion about my block is ongoing and as half of Europe has just woken up I think you should allow them the chance the have there say.

Can you a. please restored by block to the original 48hr b. unbar me from sending emails and c. unblock me from using my talk page.

You have left me utterly armless and legless in being able to defend myself against the allegations put.! From Vintagekits

Posted here by  Giano  12:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd support that. I'm of the view that Vk was by no means the only person sending emails last night. And the initial block was so bad it merited a severe reaction. IMHO. Sarah777 (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Show me the diff that justifies preventing this user from any sort of communication. I don't see it. When people get blocked we expect them to get heated and do a little cussing on their own talk page. Escalating at that point is harmful to Misplaced Pages. Just let them blow of steam and if they are still in the mood to cause trouble after 48 hours, reblock them. If you think the user has warn out community patience, you need to give the community a chance to comment. One hour of discussion is not enough. Jehochman 14:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If you do adjust the block, and consensus seems to be against the idea, please do not re-enable e-mails. I don't appreciate e-mails of the type I was sent last night, I don't need to hear how disgusted VK is with me or any of his other opinions on me. There is always the unblock mailing list, or arbcom to e-mail. E-mailing other Wikipedians has already been abused. 15:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Have we had a chance to look at this infamous email yet or do we have to just take you word on it that it was as bad as you have been making out? --LiamE (talk) 15:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• Chillum, you have email enabled so you can receive emails - was the email abusive or was it not, perhaps you are "confused" - again? In fact, I think I will seek VK's permission to post it here, then we all may judge.  Giano  15:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Wow, the choke hold is off! I would like to know why I was banned from my talkpage in the first place. If my talk page wasnt banned then no one would have received any emails - as it was my only outlet of communication at a time that editors were discussing my very "wiki-life" what was I supposed to do.

Even though it was late and I was tired and should have been in my nest, I dont think I sent anything untoward, I may have expressed my disgust and disappointment the way some experienced appeared to be screwing the facts in what I considered a "witch hunt". I am happy for any editor to disclose the content of any email I sent last night to allow others deem if it was offending or not. --Vintagekits (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• SarekOfVulcan, asks if Elonka considered my comment a personal attack. Shouldnt the more pertaintant question be to Domer - i.e. if my interpretation of what he meant by "cop yourself on" was a more polite version of what I said.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• I have little desire to continue explaining my actions here over and over. My removal of talk page access had nothing to do with the discussion at ANI, and pre-dated any serious discussion of a ban/indef block. I was simply trying to prevent VK from posting any more unblock requests during what was at that time only a 48 hour block. Next thing I know this is in my email inbox:

You obviously have never experienced bashing your head against a brick wall for months on end. I am hounded by British sympathising editors on every page I venture onto because of my support for physical forces Irish republicanism - what you Americans would now call "terrorism". I never expect a fair shot so was not suprised by your decline - admins look at my block log and say "fuck me this guy is a monster" - however the vast majority of the blocks were bad blocks and most of the time an admin with enough balls to spot it unblocks me. Its simple just come to an end now - I've had enough.

• and another:

its utterly contemptable and inflamatory to block someones talkpage - a talk page should not be blocked unless it is being used to abuse wikipedia, cause further breaches of policy or to out another editor. NONE OF THESE WERE BEING DONE!!! YOU ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO PUSH ME INTO MAKING A REAL PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU WHICH I AM ON THE VERGE OF! you are a disgrace!

I'm not particularly offended or appalled by these, but they are not exactly helpful or logical either. VK seems to believe he is the target of some vast British Wikipedian conspiracy. I can only speak for myself of course, but I can assure you my actions were not based in any way on his nationality or political views. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• you are not offended because there is nothing to be offended by - he is merely explaining to you how he feels. If he feels ganged up upon and victimised, can you really be surprised after the events of last night, when while all of Europe was fast asleep a group of mostly American acted as they did in a seemingly co-ordinated fashion and at such speed.  Giano  17:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Get real, the idea that this disruptive user feels ganged up on and victimized is a joke. Off2riorob (talk) 17:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec) You need to stop beating that drum. Perhaps the closing of the discussion and imposing of a ban was a bit hasty, I must say I was surprised to see things progressing so quickly, but the idea that it was some deliberate "anti-European cabal conspiracy" has little to no merit. If anything it was VK who was doing the canvassing with all of his email activity. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• I'm very much afraid you people should have considered your actions and words more carefully during the night - then things may not appear as they do.  Giano  17:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

"Perhaps the closing of the discussion and imposing of a ban was a bit hasty" - when you can say something like that I really just shake my head and wonder how you were ever allowed be an admin. Rlvese acted acted as judge, jury and executioner last night - and all down in the record time of an hour - whilst all of other had slept, they would have awoken to find me beheaded. I find it strange that until Alsion turned up this was unanimous to ban me - but since then it is even with regards bans and opposes. I find that very strange. Either there is a mailing list or there are a lot of lemmings - maybe both. I dont know, all I know if that I have had the shitty end of the stick here. You personally havent even taken one moment to consider this from my perspective and it shows.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Howdy Vk. It's your usage of foul language, that's getting ya into these block problems. Personally, I don't mind the colorful words, but it appears an increasing numbers of editors do. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I know i have a potty mouth - it doesnt bother me to be honest its not turned on to insult people its just the way I talk. I supposes it could be a cultural thing.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If the community chooses 'not' to ban you, I'd recommend no more foul words. Afterall, once the Wiki community tells an editor he/she is out? he/she is out. GoodDay (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps somebody could write a Javascript filter that would clean up your posts. Watch out for the seven dirty words. Jehochman 17:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I hear you GD, and thank you for all your support and advice in the past. It is genuinely much appriciated.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No prob, Vk. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

PS: I've voted oppose on the Wiki ban proposal, as you haven't vandalized any articles. GoodDay (talk) 17:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

My personal motto at Misplaced Pages is "go with the flow". Right, GoodDay?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

PS, I also voted oppose.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yep. GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Howdy Vk. I decided to delete my 'vote' from your Ban case. I shall have to take a neutral stand on it. GoodDay (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I saw! I have to say that I am a little disspointed that you did that. Answer me this what made you change it? When in the last year have I vandalised a page or caused so much disruption that it woul dwarrant an indefinate ban?--Vintagekits (talk) 10:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I had to revert to 'neutral', when I was reminded of your past sock-puppetry. Which (I'm glad) you haven't committed for over a year, since your last Banning case. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that certain people have been trying to make a mountain out of a molehill over VK's emails. They frankly look like reasonable responses given his limitations on communication at the time. I have taken some time to look over some of the troubles articles and there does seem to be a systematic Britsh POV bias going on. No wow I will lay my cards on the table here... I am a Brit... but being from an Irish family I am probably more aware of and attuned to the issues at hand than most editors. Most editors seem to take the Britsh POV and are backed by what would seem to be a a number of admins all with either a British POV or American ones with a strong anti terrorism POV. Take the "British Isles" as an example. Geographically and geologically speaking the term seems fine to me - simply meaning the group of Islands the biggest of which happens to be called Great Britain. That is pretty standard terminology for any group of Islands to be refered to by the biggest. Now the term is also used in political and economic sense where its use is not so clear cut and can have overtones that are not welcome that most British editors are simply unaware of, and the term is used in this way, which can be considered an inflamatory way, throughout wikipedia. There are alternatives to the British Isles which can and should be used outside of purely geographic or geological articles yet the weight of editors on the British side surpresses this. It is no wonder to me that editors who try and redress this balance problem feel like they are beating their head against a wall sometimes because frankly they are, though I would say it is not a wall of anti Irish sentiment but one of ignorance to the issue. --LiamE (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I've changed my mind (yet again). I'm once again, opposing the indef-ban, as I've no evidence of sock-puppetry (since the last Banning case). GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Official statement requested

Jehochman has asked for you to write up and post an official statement to be contributed to the ANI discussion before it's closed. Can you create one here and indicate when you are done editing and want it copied over? Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

George, I wasnt on line much yesterday and will be away from my computer for most of today as well as I have family visiting. That issues would you like me to address.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagekits, my advice is to request a full and thorough Arbcom case, so much has happened in your career here that is does need cold and calculated scrutiny - a laying bear of facts if you like. Then a few people can assess if you are of any value to the project rather than a braying bob. The strange behaviour of some very important Wikipedians yesterday in the threads concerning you has convinced me, you need to be examined only by the Arbcom. It will be unplesant for you - you have many wiki-faults, but are not alone in that - as I see it you are standing on the trapdoor with a noose around your neck, and the mob have their hands on the lever - the lever needs to he in the hands of a responsible few. That's my advice take it or leave it.  Giano  10:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the issues which I would hope you would address are the comments and issues raised in the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Block Vintagekits indefinitely thread. A number of editors have commented, there and in the various alternatives which flowed out of that in the major heading.

Any specific ideas, comments, opinions that were raised there and statements you'd like to make. Someone's going to have to make a determination and close the various proposed community actions threads, and it's only fair if you have a chance to be heard and respond to the issues.

I see Giano's comment above requesting an Arbcom case. That's probably premature at the moment - nobody has closed the community remedies threads, so for right now you're just indef blocked, not banned or otherwise restricted. I recommend that the community discussion be allowed to come to an end and then if you disagree then appeal any decision to Arbcom. That's purely procedural - I think Arbcom will want to wait until the community decides, so it wouldn't make sense to appeal to them before. Once there is a community decision of some sort then you should feel free to file an Arbcom appeal or ask for a case to be opened.

If waiting 24 more hours while you have family over and are unavailable to comment here will help, I will post a request to the thread asking for no admins to close during that period, until you have a chance to respond. I believe there's no harm done to anyone by a decent wait - a week would be hard to justify, but another day (or even two) won't hurt the community or you in any way.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

George, if you could that would be great. There is a big game tonight and they will want to be brought out for that as well. I hope to put an hour aside tomorrow to get my thoughts down. Thanks.

Yep agree a full and thorough Arbcom case. To cut out the BS insist on Diff's for any and every accusation. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Lift the block

Given the nature of the block and my suspicion, based on personal experience, that this is a tactic in a banning process I believe the ban should be lifted before any further proceedings. Here we have a trial in progress while the accused has already been locked away without bail - all the better to provoke him. Not the circumstances for a fair assessment of the many issues at play here. It's not as if Vk can abscond while out on bail. I think my proposal here will tease out the real agenda of the block and ban lobby. Sarah777 (talk) 12:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

No, any debate about lifting the block will split any arguement in process and confuse things further, let one decision be made at a time. If he can't be mentored, and he can't have an Arbcom case then there is no point unblocking at any time. VK can post here and a hundred helpers can post where he wants things.  Giano  12:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I didn't ask for any "debate". I asked for the bad block to be lifted, given it's nature and context. I am still asking for the block to be lifted, first. Sarah777 (talk) 13:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

That's my advice, take it or leave it.  Giano  13:18, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Mentorship

Would you be willing to have me, and likely some others (which will need to include people you don't care for - so to be acceptable for those who do not appreciate the effort being expended to keep you editing this project), as mentor(s)? This would run concurrent to Jehochman's suggested limiting you to sport/boxing topics and ban from Ireland/Troubles related areas. I am asking the community the same thing at ANI, and will only accept supping from the poisoned chalice if there are two positive responses. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much likelihood of the community accepting you being mentored, so there is little point in you agreeing/committing. Perhaps the ArbCom option above is the only venue left to determine if there is a way for you to continue to contribute. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but suggest leaving the mentoring option just a little longer - people do change their minds - occasionaly.  Giano  11:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

The Mentorship option is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I would offer mentorship as part of any Arbitration decision, should a Request get to such a stage, in any event. I regret that those opposing mentorship currently appear to be too numerous for anything but a complete about face to bring about a consensus for it. I think 36 hours from my initial offer should be sufficient time to establish the communities position on it, so there is a little time yet. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Completely unconnected question

Is Manny Pacquiao's fight on Miguel Cotto British TV tonight, if so when ? I can't find it anywhere and the dog has eaten today's newspaper? someone watching this page is bound to know.  Giano  22:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sky Sports 1. Rockpocket 22:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Than you Rockpocket, but I on a computer wired not to let me look at anything pleasurable (probably why it permits Misplaced Pages) could you have a quick look for me, I think I have a few hours yet.  Giano  22:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh. Its being shown live at 2am on Sky Sports 1:

Live Big Fight Special in HD. Manny Pacquiao v Miguel Angel Cotto. All the action from the bout at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, as Pacquiao steps up a division to challenge for Cotto's WBO Welterweight title. Pacquiao's last fight was the second-round knockout of Ricky Hatton in a light-welterweight contest in May, and he can further add to his reputation as arguably the best pound-for-pound boxer in the world should he take the belt from Cotto.

As far as I can tell, it is not being shown on any free-to-air channel. So it depends whether Giano's household subsidizes Mr Murdoch or not ;) Rockpocket 22:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Well actually we do, purely for the children's educational purposes you understand. In fact, it's purely for the children's educational purposes that I fiddled with the parental controls of this computer and now can't reverse them, this is the problem with passwords when you seldom spell the same word twice two days running. Thank you for that.  Giano  23:02, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Block and associated discussion

I have closed the discussion at the incident noticeboard regarding your block. At this time, there is a strong, albeit not unanimous, consensus that the block is to remain. You may, as normal, request that the arbitration committee review the matter. As I stated in my closing rationale, if you post a request for arbitration on this page, I will move it to requests for arbitration for you.

Whatever the outcome here is, I urge you to strongly consider why things have come to this point. I hope that you will do so. Seraphimblade 03:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Came on to post a response now. Is it too late.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Pacman, WBO welterweight champion

Pacman TKO's Cotto in 12th rd. I was close, eh? GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)