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Dan Povenmire

Nominator(s): The Flash 00:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
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After a copyedit and a GA review, I believe this article successfully complies with FAC criteria. It is well written, contains references to reliable sources, and follows all style/image guidelines. Now, something bound to come up is the sources. Here's what I've got to defend them:

Thanks in advance, The Flash 00:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I see and as well as his age man this man co created an emmy winning cartoon and no one nows hjis age.--Pedro J. 21:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

  • So, Pedro, do you support the article's nomination? I just don't want this nomination to fail because of lack of generally comments and/or supports. The Flash 03:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments, feel free to not fix at your discretion

Mm40 (talk) 13:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Ealdgyth is correct. The newspaper simply proves that the show is wellknown, not that it is a reliable source. Otherwise the Hamas Mouse counts as a RS, or a guy who won a school science competition is on a par with academics YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 23:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Removed. The Flash 00:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. (Sorry for the delay, I've been sick. ) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Uh...I already did that for each, see above. Most of them I linked to Google News searches which show reliable sources citing the websites as credible sources. What are you referring to, then? The Flash 00:01, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
And I wasn't very convinced, but I'll leave this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. I lean unreliable still, though. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Seriously, though? The websites I linked to back them up were all reliable, what makes you still lean against them? The rules state that a reliable source can be backed up by other reliable sources which confirm it as noteworthy or reliable — I linked you to articles that proved it. I do not understand what makes you still disbelieve in them. The Flash 00:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Image review - File:ZHS.jpg - Please add a description of this image to the image description page. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 05:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment: 1. The first sentence say he is "American". Can you be specific and say that he is from the United States, or else link the adjective "American" to United States.
Changed link to United States. The Flash 19:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
2. The article lacks the most basic biographical details. The first paragraph in the body of the article should say:Dan Povenmire was born on (date) at (town and country), the son of (Who?) and (Who?). Amandajm (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Not true, none of that information exists. There's no source anywhere for it, not all articles have to say that, there is no rule for it in any guideline I've read. The Flash 19:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Of course the information exists! You need to do more research. If you are serious about this, that is, if you want this to be an FA quality biography, then you track down the essential details. Drop an email to his agent. It is quite easy to find out this sort of stuff if you use some initiative.
Dan Provenmire was 44 years old in May 2008. Note, this does not imply that he turned 44 in May 2008. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
He attended Shaw High School, Mobile 1977-1981. Amandajm (talk) 06:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Please do not tell me that I have not done enough research. Every available source is already in the article, including both of the sources you just listed. Those sources merely give rough estimates; again, the information exists, but there is not website or book that tells us his age/birthday, and it is not even necessary for it to be in the article. Plus, e-mails do not even skim WP:RS, as it is merely a form of WP:OR (trust me, I tried using an e-mail correspondence a wiki did with him, it was shot down immediately). Still, if you can find an RS for his birthday (which I really doubt exists) then that'd be appreciated. The Flash 06:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
  • To be honest i can't tell a thing that is wrong with the sources sandy., we have been in his postion there are not as much sources as we need or not to reliable but thats all we got and flash has done a great job with this artical--Pedro J. 22:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Auntieruth55 review This was an intriguing article to read, not being familiar with the culture of animated series. I can appreciate that there are difficulties in creating such an article, based on a living person who may be a bit secretive, is still fairly young, etc etc. So, within that context, this article is well done, given the limited number of sources.

That said, however, I have to OPPOSE Conditional Support (see the end of the section) for the following reasons:

Crit. 1
Prose
  • The prose is actually "pretty good" but it is not very good. It is difficult to read, and many sentences contain extraneous information that makes them confusing to follow. The information is sometimes out of sequence.

:*He was a longtime director on the prime time series Family Guy, where he was nominated for an Annie Award, until he left to create Phineas and Ferb with Jeff "Swampy" Marsh. Presumably he did not lose his nomination because he left to create P and F. Should be/could be....He was a long time director on the prime time series Family Guy, and his work received an Annie nomination in (date). He left Family Guy to create Phineas and Ferb with Jeff Marsh. Povenmire has been nominated for a BAFTA, an Annie, and two Emmys. He is currently married and lives in Pasadena California.

:*There are many other sentences like that one. At USC, he pitched Life is a Fish immediately to Mark Ordesky, the then editor-in-chief of college newspaper the Daily Trojan Problems: (1) immediately? Immediately upon his enrollment? Immediately when he thought of it? (2) it is not a college newspaper, it is a university newspaper. (3) missing an article, and has an extra article; (4) At USC, he pitched Life is a Fish to Mark Ordesky, then editor-in-chief of the university's student newspaper, The Daily Trojan.

  • (1) It is your job to make sense of the sources. If they are unclear, then leave out immediately.
  • (3)an article, like the or a or an. I fixed it.
  • (4) the then editor in chief is confusing. Should be either then editor in chief, or then the editor in chief. Fixed. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • (1) Cleared it up. (3) I figured that's what you were referring to, I just wasn't sure where you wanted me to fix it, lol. (4) Cleared it up a bit without realizing you did so — still works? The Flash 02:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:*.... without gaining a degree. Huh? He dropped out of USC before finishing the degree requirements, or he left without graduating.

  • If someone drops out with out getting a degree...it means they didn't finish the degree requirements before they left. Dropping out is slang. without gaining a degree is convoluted. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

:*There he sat opposite Jeffery Marsh, later to become a colleague on several projects, with whom he bonded over shared tastes in humor and music. Huh? (1) He sat opposite Jeffery Marsh? What does that mean? (2) Combining two time frames in one sentence places everything out of sequence. His desk placed him opposite Jeffery Marsh, another up-and-coming animator (or whatever he was). Their shared tastes in humor and music, and later became colleagues on other projects.

:* child hood experiences of summers outdoors.....HUH? Based on their similar experiences of childhood summers spent outdoors or something....

*Repetitiveness. Povenmire did this, Povenmire did that. Mix it up. The pair developed, the pair did, the pair, created. Same.

* And other instances like these (repetitiveness, problems of clarity, ambiguity in sentence structure, wording, timing, etc.).

  • fixed throughout. You need to learn to read your own text more critically.  :) This comes with time for some, and for some it comes sometime, and for others, they never develop the ability. No problem. The article is short. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I would omit the information on the children entirely. Mention they have two children. Leave out the info on them. Not relevant.
  • I just think it's a bad policy to include their names, and such detail. At the most, mention that he has two daughters. Not birthdays. Too many weirdos out there. I have left a request at the Biography Wikiproject for policy on this. Since this is a LPB we should err on the side of caution. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Reference section does not include all your references. Where are the newspapers and other sources you have used?
  • you didn't include the books in the citations section? I see them in the footnotes list, but I don't see the newspapers etc. in the references list. And Flash, I'm smarter than the average bear, and if I don't understand your rationale, there will be others in the same boat. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm basing it on articles like Edgar Allen Poe and The Simpsons (season 1). As you can see there, they list books under "References," then make a "Notes" sections which contain specific refs to the claims; books are then simply put as the author and page and linked to the title of the book which is mentioned in "References." I could just as easily change it to "Further reading" if you'd like. The Flash 02:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:Re the question of quality and reliability. I echo the suggestion of contacting his agent. Surely his agent will provide you with high quality reliable information about the man. Did you try searching the New York Times, or some other reliable newspaper, rather than relying on the info provided in IMDB?

  • I don't think you read what I said carefully enough. The sole reason I'm using IMDb is because there's no other source for it I can find; the award's official website does not contain info from 1996. The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Citations: (not sure this is actionable.
  • fn4, which you cite many times, has a link to a page that doesn’t exist. Error 404 page not found. Search for Povenmire returns 0 results.
  • fn5 abc, links to Greenspon, which circles back to this article. fn 13 also. fn15 Neuwirth (and Callaghan 21-27) also links back to the article, not to the source, so why is it blue-linked?
  • It doesn't link to Greenspon, it links only to the article generally. I question that you need the link at all. What is the policy on this, someone?
  • Okay — it links and highlights the book its referring to, which is spelled out with publisher, etc., info in the section, so that people know what its for. It links to a section on the page which shows the cite book info and therefore explains to you what "Greenspon" is. Is it clear now? The Flash 01:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
  • fn34 Comic Strip War should be capitalized.

It looks like you were careless and didn't capitalize, not that it was "poetic" license on the part of the editors of the magazine. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

  • That is not true — did you check out the article? The title is not capitalized, I wasn't being lazy, I put the title of the page as it was on the page. I've capitalized it nonetheless. :) The Flash 01:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
criterion 4
Images
  • alt text needs work. For example:
  • A Caucasian man dressed in a black shirt sits, smiling, with a microphone in front of him. His arms are crossed and his hair and goatee is black. A table is viewable in front of him, while repeating square symbols with an eyeball on them can be seen behind him. Repeating square symbols? Square signs are posted on the wall behind him, bearing the name COMIC-CON in big bright yellow letters around a drawn eye and eyebrow...
  • Several tall buildings rest on water????? HUH? This needs a better description entirely! We also don't know it is an ocean. How do we know that? How can we tell that from looking at it?
Tommy Chong is a tanned man, not a tan man. Or a well-tanned man with white hair and a white beard holds a microphone in front of his face. On his left wrist, he wears a heavy silver-colored watch; with his right hand, he is gesturing. On the wall behind him are two signs: one bears the name "Tommy Chong".
A Caucasian male with black hair and stubble, along with a black shirt. His hand is placed under his chin and a microphone is in front of him. A vague symbol is marked behind him. A Caucasian male with black hair and facial stubble, wearing a black shirt, sits at a table. His chin rests on his hand, and he has a slight, bemused smile on his face. A blurred sign behind him has yellow lettering.

I suggest another copy edit, or a similar type of review. I'd also look at some other kinds of sources to see what you can find. I'm not saying it isn't well researched (you're a bit touchy about that), I'm saying you could be more thorough. This man is regularly in the news, so there must be info out there in newspapers and online magazines. For example, here. Did you look at his Facebook page? Time. Newsweek. etc. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

  • I don't see at all how Facebook even skims WP:RS standards. I'm only using reliable sources, which is why info like his age and such is unavailable. All the info that there is out there is in here. Besides, nothing in that article (which I've already read thoroughly while working on previous articles) contains any useful stuff about Dan that isn't supported by other sources. Thank you for your comments; The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Alt texts: What are they about? They are for people who cannot see the images, particularly blind people. The important points to remember are
  1. They are read before the main caption, so need to contain the name of the person in order to make sense. "man in a black suit" could be describing (for example) an author, a character from the author's book, or a critic who commented on his work. You can't leave the listener in suspense.
  1. "leave the listener in suspense"? It is not necessary to say who the man in the picture is, as it is very likely the blind reader/listener has ever heard of the person or knows what they look like. That is the point in the ALTTEXT, no? To describe what's in the picture, not tell who he is. How is saying "an animator" or "an American cartoonist" going to clear it up? You see what I mean? The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. What sort of image is it? A formal portrait, a publicity shot, a snapshot, a news image, a paprazzi shot?
  1. Does snapshot work for all of them? The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. Unless you are describing the composition of an artwork, the position, like "facing right" is unimportant. "Hand held up on a level with the mouth" tells a blind person nothing. Try to capture a sense of what the person is involved in and what their expression tells you. You have more interpretative freedom here than in the body of the article.
  1. How do you want me to fix this? The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. Don't give your blind listener a little game of identification. If it is perfectly clear that the logo on the wall is the "Comic Con" logo, then state that Provenmire is at "Comic Con International". Describing a number of square signs on the wall is utterly meaningless and confusing.
  1. Yeah, done. The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. Remember that many/most blind listeners have either once been sighted or have some sight, but not enough to read. Amandajm (talk) 06:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. Thanks for the advice. The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I was told that the alt text should not include the name of the person, because it needs to be identifiable by a non-expert. I will ask for clarification on this on the talk page. Regardless, the alt-text needs work. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Auntieruth. Like I said, I don't see any point as to how saying things like "Dan Povenmire" or "a cartoonist" could help the reader understand the picture. Also, I've tried my best to clear up the ALT text, tell me what you think. The Flash 21:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Conditional Support. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

(1)Prose: The prose issues were fixed by the editor, or I fixed them. It's not stellar, but it's presentable.
(2) Refs: (a) Question about the way references and citations are presented. The "Reference" section only includes books, and I don't understand the rationale for not including everything (not sure this is actionable). This makes the citing and sources look incomplete to me (again, actionable? not sure). (b) several ref links lead no where. Is this a problem? Someone else needs to take a look.
I explained a while up about the References. Also, I'm unsure how to fix the archives, for some reason they're redirecting (IDK why). The Flash 02:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
(3) I don't think the children should be listed by name, and certainly not with a birthday. I've left a request at the WP Bio for an explanation of policy on this.
Removed their names, see above. The Flash 02:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Children's names: Flash, I'm glad you've removed them. For future reference, here is the policy. WP:BLPNAME Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

(4) alt images need someone with some greater experience than I to take a look.

Flash, nice work. I like an article that I can learn from! Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! After all, that's what Misplaced Pages's for. :) The Flash 02:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Notes (Dabomb87 (talk))

  • ... "every drawing he did was beautiful to look at and had so much energy in it." Shouldn't the ellipses be inside the quotation marks?
  • "text books" Is it really two words? Just wondering (not a loaded question); I've always seen it as one.
  • A bit of overlinking of common and easily understandable terms, such as "summer vacation", "treehouse", "t-shirt", "calendar", "college degree", "triangle" (!) etc. Please check throughout.
I did a few more of the overlinks. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Alt text: "Snapshot of Tommy Chong" I'm not an expert (that would be Eubulides), but alt text isn't supposed to have phrases about the composition of the photo (e.g. "Snapshot") or proper nouns (e.g. names).
  • Page notation for single pages is "p.", not "pp."

I trust you can resolve these minor details, so I'm not watching. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Amandajm's remarks about alt text and proper names disagree with the Misplaced Pages guidelines. WP:ALT #Proper names says that alt text typically should not name people or objects in an image. Please reword the alt text to omit the phrases "Dan Provenmire", "City of Mobile", "Tommy Chong", and "Seth MacFarlane at Comic Con". Also, for File:Seth MacFarlane by Gage Skidmore 3.jpg please remove and/or reword the sentence "Square signs are posted on the wall behind him, bearing the name COMIC-CON in big bright yellow letters around a drawn eye and eyebrow." as these details cannot be verified from that image. Finally, please remove the phrases "Photo of" (3 instances) and "Snapshot of" as per WP:ALT #Phrases to avoid. Eubulides (talk) 08:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, I believe they do as they give context and visual understanding for the readers. What images look "extremely cluttered" to you? All align, except for the one of Seth MacFarlane, but not a big deal. The Flash 18:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)