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wikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.regarding Changes by Termer. The Joint Baltic Committee of Sydney was an Australian, not an Estonian, organization. by Anti-Nationalist.
Well, it is a Baltic organization in Australia, not an Australian organization per se. FFI please see the State library of New South Wales: The Joint Baltic Committee was formed by representatives of the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian communities in Sydney in 1952, + Lia Looveer was a member of the Board of the Estonian Society of Sydney and office manager of the Estonian weekly Meie Rodo, 1956-1966.--Termer (talk) 05:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
User:PasswordUsername edit warring over category
User:PasswordUsername thinks the Category:Estonian politicians is based upon ethnicity, but it is in fact based upon nationality. As far as I know Lia Looveer was a dual Australian/Estonian national. --Martintg (talk) 03:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I rather expected it might be both, as the "Lists of..." Estonians, Latvian, and Lithuanians include both. VЄСRUМВА 13:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- PasswordUsername (whoever might that be?) doesn't think Category:Estonian politicians is based upon ethnicity, descent, or birth location. He thinks it is based on nationality, here meaning where the person actively participates in politics , although Vecrumba apparently thinks the reverse , Martintg. ;-) If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, Theodore Roosevelt would be a Dutchman, while Alfred Rosenberg would be Estonian. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lia Looveer had dual Australian/Estonian nationality, so what is User:PasswordUsername arguing about? --Martintg (talk) 22:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- He means that she wasn't active in Estonian politics, as he explained. Croatian Prime Minister Hrvoje Šarinić is a dual Croatian-French citizen, but he's not a "French politician" because of it. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 22:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- ´´If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, Theodore Roosevelt would be a Dutchman, while Alfred Rosenberg would be Estonian. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)´´ - funny, I never knew Alfred Rosenberg was Estonian. Ever heard of Baltic Germans? --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- He was a Baltic German, born in Estonia. C'mon, Miacek–I never claimed that he was Estonian and wouldn't describe him as one despite his being born in Reval (Tallinn), which is why the analogy was used. That's the whole point: you classify an individual as an "X-ian politician" if said individual is active in politics in country "X." Any other classification, whether by birth or descent, is non-sensical, which is why presenting Theodore Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" and Alfred Rosenberg an Estonian Nazi figure would be a stupid way of classifying people. It's the invalidity of this sort of categorization that I've been illustrating. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I can't see how any of this nonsense about Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" is related to the subject unless Roosevelt was an active member of Dutch political organizations in the US like Looveer was an active member of Estonian political organizations in Australia.--Termer (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- He was a Baltic German, born in Estonia. C'mon, Miacek–I never claimed that he was Estonian and wouldn't describe him as one despite his being born in Reval (Tallinn), which is why the analogy was used. That's the whole point: you classify an individual as an "X-ian politician" if said individual is active in politics in country "X." Any other classification, whether by birth or descent, is non-sensical, which is why presenting Theodore Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" and Alfred Rosenberg an Estonian Nazi figure would be a stupid way of classifying people. It's the invalidity of this sort of categorization that I've been illustrating. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- ´´If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, Theodore Roosevelt would be a Dutchman, while Alfred Rosenberg would be Estonian. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)´´ - funny, I never knew Alfred Rosenberg was Estonian. Ever heard of Baltic Germans? --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- He means that she wasn't active in Estonian politics, as he explained. Croatian Prime Minister Hrvoje Šarinić is a dual Croatian-French citizen, but he's not a "French politician" because of it. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 22:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lia Looveer had dual Australian/Estonian nationality, so what is User:PasswordUsername arguing about? --Martintg (talk) 22:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Was Looveer a Nazi collaborator?
Wasn't she a Nazi collaborator? According to this link , Looveer, worked for Baltic Radio in Nazi Germany, 1944-45. I wonder why her son had no need to hide this sort of thing. I am also wondering if the Australian public was largely aware of this fact. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages describes collaborationism as
I don't think a case (one out of thousands) of a Baltic person having fled the country as the Soviet occupants seized the land and then working for some months for a rather unknown German radio warrants the label 'Nazi collaborator'. Similarly, chairmen of minor kolkhozes in the ESSR aren't usually described as Soviet collaborators. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government.
- I don't know if the station was propaganda or not. Did Nazi Germany seemply broadcast Baltic Radio for the fun of it? Maybe. That's why I asked. And a collaborator is somebody who collaborates with an occupier. Even the initially pro-German Juri Uluots (claiming the mantle of Estonia's legitimate ruler during the Nazi occupation) got his Estonian supporters fighting Germans by 1944, while Lia Loover went to Germany and worked for this mysterious broadcaster in 1944-45, so I think the description seems fitting. Explain? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Anti-Nationalist nèe PasswordUsername, please present evidence that "Baltic Radio" was a Nazi radio station and not a Baltic (language, I would presume) radio station operating from Germany. That something operated in Germany during the war does not automatically make that something a Nazi enterprise. Are you here to create content or to smear a dead Estonian? (Per your openly leading question starting as: "Wasn't she a Nazi collaborator?", your innuendo "wondering" about her son having "no need to hide", "wondering" about the Australian public.) VЄСRUМВА 17:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Besides that British Empire Medal is awarded for meritorious civil or military service worthy of recognition by the crown. I'm surprised that PU wasn't "wondering" about the validness of my relative being decorated with that medal. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm just wondering about this, Vecrumba. Thanks for assuming good faith. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I only observed the manner in which you asked your question. Constructively asked questions are always taken to be in good faith. Questions asked in the form of accusatory innuendo are not. Enough said on this and elsewhere. VЄСRUМВА 18:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Unless it's shown promptly how exactly is this smearing related to a discussion about "improving the article", I'm gong to remove this chapter from the talk page shortly. Thanks for understanding! --Termer (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's not smearing: it's a question I'm asking because I'd like to know about Looveer's work in Germany and if there's any further information I might be able to look at. It is a relevant question because I was wondering about adding her to category Nazi collaborators, as she prima facie appears to have been a real collaborator with the Nazi authorities, even going from Estonia to Germany and then working on what appears to have been a propaganda radio station (I don't think Baltic Radio Germany was broadcast into Estonia in 1944-45 for fun and profit). Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- As I said, bring something more than your personal interpretation and speculation to the plate. PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 20:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- Let's see, let's see! Here's my basis for asking a simple question about her: . Aight? You gonna give me a lynching for that? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- As I said, bring something more than your personal interpretation and speculation to the plate. PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 20:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This is not a speedy candidate as the page was not created to disparage its subject. If you guys come to a consensus that the discussion should be hidden then someone can just blank this section. Deletion is not necessary. James086 07:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the Baltic radio in Poland and Germany in 1944, there was considerable amount of Baltic war refugees out there at the time and what has their Baltic radio station where Looveer worked according to her resume anything to do with "Anti-Nationalist" personal speculations here? Misplaced Pages is not a place to publish original research or original thought, so why hasn't this section been deleted yet?--Termer (talk) 23:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- I want information, not speculation. The file I have twice linked to refers to Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt–an official establishment, if we're going by the name of it. I would like more information about this station–such as, for one, whether the station was commandeered and run by one Joseph Goebbels, as the Nazi state's broadcasting was. From the sound of it, it seems like a Nazi propaganda station, but I would very, very much like more information about this seemingly obscure radio service as I do not want to "publish original research or original thought" or "personal speculations" of any sort here. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
What you said above you want is "adding her to category Nazi collaborators". In case you want more information about the radio station, why don't you contact for example the information services of the British crown. They surely must have asked questions about the work at the station in case it was run "by one Joseph Goebbels" etc. while considering awarding her with the British Empire Medal.--Termer (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, my question had a practical purpose. I think if she worked for a Nazi propaganda station in '44-45 after moving to Germany, she can be classified as a Nazi collaborator. If you have any numbers for me to call or people to e-mail to find out the nature of her activities, well, help a brother out. By the late '40s, the Australians accepted low-level collaborators into their country, actually. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
No kidding...? I would love to help you out just that please explain which part of WP:FORUM is not clear enough? Hope you don't mind if I spell it out for you: "If you wish to ask a specific question on a topic, Misplaced Pages has a Reference desk, and questions should be asked there rather than on talk pages."--Termer (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? I am discussing one of the sources in this article (see my first post in this section), which mentions Looveer's work in Nazi Germany for a station called "Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt" in 1944-1945. I am wondering about whether such work could serve as evidence of Looveer's working as a Nazi collaborator. I asked a question about what it could mean, since I thought that the article could fit in the Nazi collaborators category, but wanted to be sure first. I am sorry if this came across as an "attack" for you–but how else does one discuss what appears to have been Looveer's Nazi collaboration without actually talking about Nazi collaboration? Discussing the article's content and how it may be more accurately represented is a fully acceptable activity to be carried out on talk pages–per WP:TALK. How can I be any more clear about this? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 16:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- All you have presented is a primary source that mention she worked briefly in Germany then proceed to make WP:OR speculation that it is evidence of Nazi collaboration. Since that you apologize that it came across as an attack, perhaps you could demonstrate that you raised this matter in good faith by allowing the deletion of this discussion, which you have been reverting . --Martintg (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- A bloc of nationalist editors reverting repeatedly in order to remove a valid question by somebody else is actually unacceptable. No. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- All you have presented is a primary source that mention she worked briefly in Germany then proceed to make WP:OR speculation that it is evidence of Nazi collaboration. Since that you apologize that it came across as an attack, perhaps you could demonstrate that you raised this matter in good faith by allowing the deletion of this discussion, which you have been reverting . --Martintg (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
In no place says Looveer's resume "work in Nazi Germany for a station called "Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt" in 1944-1945" like "Anti-Nationalist claims. It says "Baltic Radio, Reichskunfunkt, Germany, Thorn, Poland" where the latter are obviously place names. Where is Thorn in Poland is clear, where or what exactly is this Reichskunfunkt (it doesn't mean anything by itself) in Germany remains unclear. The bottom line however suggesting based on this entry on Looveers resume that she may have been a "nazi collaborator" is flat out ridiculous. And labeling other editors with the "nationalist" tag doesn't make the whole thing look more serious, quite the contrary.--Termer (talk) 00:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- That's what I have been asking about, Termer! Thorn was a place under Nazi German control at the time. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
(od) On top of everything else this is original research as there is no secondary source, nor primary as in a press statement issued by a respected organization such as the Wiesenthal Center, which has stated anything about Looveer being a Nazi collaborator. Until then, this is is all a discussion which (a) IMHO is simply an attempt to smear Looveer (as living person BLP does not apply) and (b) regardless of (a), to do so via the injection of WP:OR. When reliable scholarship publishes a book on Estonian Nazi collaborators and it includes accusations against Looveer—and no such reputable accusations, indeed, none at all, have been produced and therefore are not germane to the article—then we can discuss it further as it will pertain to improving the content of the article.
Until then, any further discussion is making this talk page into a forum and should be stricken or archived, and closed. I hope this is clear. PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 17:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- All this energy would be better used for a trip to the library. I found one book, and according to "Rundfunk in Deutschland: Rundfunkpolitik im Dritten Reich" by Ansgar Diller, 9783423031844, page 404-406, the Reichs-Rundfunk, Reichssender Baltikum was a relay station that was previously a Polish radio station, and became after 1939 a relay station for the Reichssender Danzig. The station was mostly broadcasting German programs, most of just relaid from other radio stations, some produced in Thorn. The Baltischer Reichs-Rundfunk was a propaganda program in Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian, and I am quoting verbatim "produzierte mit Hilfe von 10 Kollaborateuren Nachrichten, Propaganda und Unterhaltungssendung in den Sprachen des Baltikums" (Transl.: "produced with the help of 10 collaborateurs from baltic countries news, propaganda and entertainment in the languages of the baltic countries). Unfortunately the book does not mention Lia Looveer, but it seems, judging from this article that there are not many sources on this person to begin with. Pantherskin (talk) 19:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages isn't a venue for original research. The only source presented that Looveer worked for "Baltic Radio" is a funeral notice, hardly a reliable source by any measure. Unless a reliable source that states she was a Nazi collaborator is presented, this discussion is just going no where. --Martin (talk) 09:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- We cannot say that she was a Nazi collaborator, but we can say that she worked for a Nazi proganda radio station. Quite ironic btw that her daughter was born in Branau am Inn, the birth place of the Fuehrer. Anyway, it seems that the National Library of Australia might have some more material, so hopefully there will be some Wikipedians who can shed some light on her Nazi ties. Pantherskin (talk) 09:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages isn't a venue for original research. The only source presented that Looveer worked for "Baltic Radio" is a funeral notice, hardly a reliable source by any measure. Unless a reliable source that states she was a Nazi collaborator is presented, this discussion is just going no where. --Martin (talk) 09:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we cannot even reliably say that she worked for a Nazi proganda radio station, given the only source for that is an apparent funeral notice compiled by persons unknown published on a personal website. --Martin (talk) 09:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Compiled by her son Juho Looveer. And this funeral notice was not published on a personal website - it was published in a newspaper or somewhere else, the link to the website is merely a convenience link. The more general problem though is the borderline notability of Lia Loveer, resulting in this article relying on basically one source - and the notability is not clear from this source given that Lia Looveer appears like your run-of-the-mill politician. Pantherskin (talk) 09:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Alleged to be compiled by her son. You have a link to verify it was published in a newspaper somewhere? The website contains no link. As far as notability is concerned, that is a separate issue. --Martin (talk) 11:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have a reliable source showing that she was working for a Nazi propaganda radio station (plus the juicy fact that her daughter was born in Branau am Inn, the Fuehrers birth place). You disagree with that assessment of the source, though surprise, surprise only after it was revealed that the seemingly innocuous link to a funeral notice hinted at a rather embarrassing dirty secret. I propose that you post a message on the RS noticeboard and ask the experts what they think about it. Pantherskin (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Assuming bad faith here?, And seriously, where her daughter was born has any relevance? Is this really the caliber of the discussion here? --Martin (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have a reliable source showing that she was working for a Nazi propaganda radio station (plus the juicy fact that her daughter was born in Branau am Inn, the Fuehrers birth place). You disagree with that assessment of the source, though surprise, surprise only after it was revealed that the seemingly innocuous link to a funeral notice hinted at a rather embarrassing dirty secret. I propose that you post a message on the RS noticeboard and ask the experts what they think about it. Pantherskin (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Alleged to be compiled by her son. You have a link to verify it was published in a newspaper somewhere? The website contains no link. As far as notability is concerned, that is a separate issue. --Martin (talk) 11:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Compiled by her son Juho Looveer. And this funeral notice was not published on a personal website - it was published in a newspaper or somewhere else, the link to the website is merely a convenience link. The more general problem though is the borderline notability of Lia Loveer, resulting in this article relying on basically one source - and the notability is not clear from this source given that Lia Looveer appears like your run-of-the-mill politician. Pantherskin (talk) 09:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we cannot even reliably say that she worked for a Nazi proganda radio station, given the only source for that is an apparent funeral notice compiled by persons unknown published on a personal website. --Martin (talk) 09:39, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
The RSN views the source presented as unreliable. Since no other source has been presented that states she was a collaborator, the original question "Was she a Nazi collaborator?" has been answered: Not according to reliable sources. --Martin (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- RSN did not clearly say that the funeral leaflet is unrealiable, but that it depends. There is little doubt that what this source says is accurate, it might not be a reliable source according to our definitions, but the idea that the funeral notice or the information on it is faked is ludicrious. So we have - at the moment - strong indications that she was a Nazi collaborateur, and we also know from a clearly reliable source that she supported a war criminal and nazi collaborateur. More sources are obviously preferable, but it is a good start. Pantherskin (talk) 10:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages itself cannot call a person a Nazi collaborator. Misplaced Pages is not in a business of digging "rather embarrassing dirty secret"s. One has to provide a reliable source, which says clearly and unambiguously that Looveer was defined as a collaborator. And this calling must come an authoritative source, not just from a disgruntled boyfriend or something. Otherwise it will be original research. - Altenmann >t 19:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
About the German source
I was going to say (yesterday, but didn't have time to edit) that I was glad that some progress was made. As far as I know, there was no Baltic arm of the Reichs-Rundfunk-Gesellschaft, that is, the official propaganda radio. So, we would still need to know what "collaborators" were doing from a scholarly source—sharpening pencils or simply translating news is not collaborating against one's nation or people. The "bar" is not if you weren't out killing Nazis you were a Nazi "collaborator." But, again, that is neither here nor there, it is not our place to speculate. As I mentioned, I was going to respond positively on some progress in finding a source despite the not completely constructive tone of its communication (energy "better used" for library, not everyone has access to a German library). Now just a day later I'm just disappointed to see we've dengenerated and jumped down the same sensationalist "juicy" rat-hole as before. Please, let's introduce sources in an adult manner and discuss them in an adult manner. PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 23:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Since sources are unavailable, I suggest we end this discussion. In my opinion articles should not be written when extensive sources are not available. Please read the "Conflict of Interest" section: Consequences of ignoring this guideline. Since there seems to be an overlap with the Joint Baltic Committee it might be best to merge this article into that one. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that this discussion be closed. The German source mentions nothing about Looveer, while the RSN sees the funeral notice as not reliable as it is on a self-published website. --Martin (talk) 23:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
- Peters, Nazi collaborator is anybody who was employed by Nazi regime but was not a German national.--Dojarca (talk) 02:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- So what? No source has been presented claiming she was one. --Martin (talk) 02:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- "Collaborationism describes the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government." So which criminal deed applies to Lia Looveer? --Sander Säde 09:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The part that is stressed in "collaborator" is definitely on complicity, Sander. Have you ever heard of Lord Haw-Haw, for instance? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Again, in the absence of any reliable source that states she was a collaborator, all this is just speculative WP:OR. If you want to discuss the meaning of the term "collaborator", take it to Talk:Collaborationism. --Martin (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you might have a case that it's OR if we just go ahead and write that she was a Nazi collaborator in mainspace, sure. But we're discussing her life and how it's to be represented. Although it is not acceptable to make conclusions in mainspace on the basis of a primary source (I never claimed that the opposite was actually the case), simply discussing her life on the basis of the available sources is an acceptable activity for talk pages–especially as further information may well come out of a reasonably-posed question about the subject. Since Looveer worked for the Nazi station (presumably, not "sharpening pencils" as Vecrumba would most likely like us to believe).
- At the same time, Martin, to elaborate a slight bit more on my comments to Sander on the more general question, establishing that Looveer worked for a Nazi propaganda station seems to be sufficient to identify her wartime role as a collaborator. On that very note, worthy Wikilinks to consider, IMHO, would be Reichs-Rundfunk-Gesellschaft (the station in question, amirite?) Lord Haw-Haw, and William Joyce. As far as those go, you might take care to note that William Joyce–who was an American citizen, not a British man, by the way, in spite of his residence–was executed for much the same line of work that Looveer may have been involved in. At the same time I recognize that Misplaced Pages policy as regards claims and sources is a strict one, and that's something I am going to completely grant, which is the reason I have made no changes on the subject in mainspace, pending a talk page discussion of the information. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well actually your claim "simply discussing her life on the basis of the available sources is an acceptable activity for talk pages" contradicts Misplaced Pages policy: "talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article" You asked a question in regard to a source, the source was found to be unreliable, therefore your question was answered. All the rest is just irrelevant forum style discussion. --Martin (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- You are mistaken, Martin. I asked about Looveer's wartime role, not the source (the primary source–the funeral notice by her son) was simply presented as evidence. This advances the state of the article because the article (as written by Miacek) shed no light on her wartime activity–by no means an irrelevant part of a biographical article. People reviewing the talk page can now see the discussion and review the evidence. What do we do as regards representing the WWII period of Looveer's life–isn't the talk page a project space to discuss the future direction of what the article should resemble in mainspace? Surely, this discussion indeed centers on improving the article, exactly as prescribed for such talk pages by WP:TALK and WP:FORUM. What we need now, actually, are just additional sources for the mainspace edits that we are going to make. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- But since it is clear that there are no sources that discuss her war time role, there is no evidence to review and therefore there is nothing to add to the article, so this circular discussion does nothing to improve the article. --Martin (talk) 23:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting how Martintg misrepresents what has been said at WP:RSN - a funeral notice might be reliable for uncontroversial information due to the tendency of relatives to omit negative and less than flattering events in the life of a person. But here the controversial information is not omitted, and in fact it is not even controversial as virtually noone really knows what kind of radio station Baltic Radio was. Pantherskin (talk) 05:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- But since it is clear that there are no sources that discuss her war time role, there is no evidence to review and therefore there is nothing to add to the article, so this circular discussion does nothing to improve the article. --Martin (talk) 23:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- You are mistaken, Martin. I asked about Looveer's wartime role, not the source (the primary source–the funeral notice by her son) was simply presented as evidence. This advances the state of the article because the article (as written by Miacek) shed no light on her wartime activity–by no means an irrelevant part of a biographical article. People reviewing the talk page can now see the discussion and review the evidence. What do we do as regards representing the WWII period of Looveer's life–isn't the talk page a project space to discuss the future direction of what the article should resemble in mainspace? Surely, this discussion indeed centers on improving the article, exactly as prescribed for such talk pages by WP:TALK and WP:FORUM. What we need now, actually, are just additional sources for the mainspace edits that we are going to make. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well actually your claim "simply discussing her life on the basis of the available sources is an acceptable activity for talk pages" contradicts Misplaced Pages policy: "talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article" You asked a question in regard to a source, the source was found to be unreliable, therefore your question was answered. All the rest is just irrelevant forum style discussion. --Martin (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Again, in the absence of any reliable source that states she was a collaborator, all this is just speculative WP:OR. If you want to discuss the meaning of the term "collaborator", take it to Talk:Collaborationism. --Martin (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The part that is stressed in "collaborator" is definitely on complicity, Sander. Have you ever heard of Lord Haw-Haw, for instance? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- "Collaborationism describes the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government." So which criminal deed applies to Lia Looveer? --Sander Säde 09:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Liberal Ethnic Council
The article should mention that the subject was on the executive of the Liberal Ethnic Council and supported the president Lyenko Urbanchich when the Liberal Party tried to suspend him. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- That little snippet of information would fall under WP:UNDUE. --Martin (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yes right. A little snippet of information, especially when compared to the massive amount of books and articles that have been written about this woman. Or in the words of WP:UNDUE: "article should should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each". Pantherskin (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Where is the actual source for that claim? The PDF only has "1979 – With Liberal Ethnic Council president, Lyenko Urbanchich, organised highly successful Liberal Ethnic Concert in Sydney Town Hall in July in support of then Leader of the Opposition John Mason MLA.", nothing about being a member or executive - or supporter of Urbanchich. --Sander Säde 21:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- See: The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia (2007), Ian Hancock, p. 188, 196 (footnote 21 on p. 219) Chapter 6. "The "Uglies" and the "Trendies" (at War: 1978-81" p. 192) describes the bitter conflict between a faction led by Michael Darby and Lyenko Urbanchich and the moderates, but this conflict appears to have affected the party throughout the whole period. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see how that is relevant here, perhaps is should go into the article about the Liberal Party of Australia, but that even may be WP:UNDUE for that article. --Martin (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Why is that undue, actually? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Factional fights within parties are a common thing in Australia, this one seems not that notable in the context of Liberal Party history as a whole. You could always ask on Talk:Liberal Party of Australia. --Martin (talk) 00:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- There should be articles about the separate state parties, as there is for Canadian provincial parties. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with that. --Martin (talk) 01:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, what I mean is that you haven't explained why it's undue for the Looveer article. It was something she did, after all–so it's only proper that we add the biographical information. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Given her other more notable achievements, I'd say it's undue in any case. --Martin (talk) 09:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- It would be undue if her other more notable achievements would be discussed in dozens of other books or newspaper articles and if they would ignore her involvement in the Urbanchich affair. But that is not the case, we have one source listing her achievements and another source that mentions only her support for a war criminal and nazi-collaborateur. What means, that this support is probably her most notable achievement. Pantherskin (talk) 09:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- Given her other more notable achievements, I'd say it's undue in any case. --Martin (talk) 09:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- No, what I mean is that you haven't explained why it's undue for the Looveer article. It was something she did, after all–so it's only proper that we add the biographical information. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with that. --Martin (talk) 01:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- There should be articles about the separate state parties, as there is for Canadian provincial parties. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Factional fights within parties are a common thing in Australia, this one seems not that notable in the context of Liberal Party history as a whole. You could always ask on Talk:Liberal Party of Australia. --Martin (talk) 00:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Why is that undue, actually? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see how that is relevant here, perhaps is should go into the article about the Liberal Party of Australia, but that even may be WP:UNDUE for that article. --Martin (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- See: The Liberals: a history of the NSW division of the Liberal party of Australia (2007), Ian Hancock, p. 188, 196 (footnote 21 on p. 219) Chapter 6. "The "Uglies" and the "Trendies" (at War: 1978-81" p. 192) describes the bitter conflict between a faction led by Michael Darby and Lyenko Urbanchich and the moderates, but this conflict appears to have affected the party throughout the whole period. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Where is the actual source for that claim? The PDF only has "1979 – With Liberal Ethnic Council president, Lyenko Urbanchich, organised highly successful Liberal Ethnic Concert in Sydney Town Hall in July in support of then Leader of the Opposition John Mason MLA.", nothing about being a member or executive - or supporter of Urbanchich. --Sander Säde 21:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yes right. A little snippet of information, especially when compared to the massive amount of books and articles that have been written about this woman. Or in the words of WP:UNDUE: "article should should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each". Pantherskin (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The article should also mention that the subject founded the Captive Nations Council in 1960 with Douglas Darby in 1960 and remained Honorary Secretary throughout the Council's life. Douglas Darby was president from 1968 to 1978 and represented them at the World Anti-Communist League. (Note the References listed in Darby's article.) The Four Deuces (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, perhaps that should go into an the article Captive Nations Council. --Martin (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Vecrumba has found another source for the article, a speech by David Clarke, MLC. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, perhaps that should go into an the article Captive Nations Council. --Martin (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- The article should also mention that the subject founded the Captive Nations Council in 1960 with Douglas Darby in 1960 and remained Honorary Secretary throughout the Council's life. Douglas Darby was president from 1968 to 1978 and represented them at the World Anti-Communist League. (Note the References listed in Darby's article.) The Four Deuces (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Victim of Soviet repressions before WWII?
According to this source Looveer was engaged to Mr Robert Tasso who was arrested in 1940 after the Soviet occupation by the NKVD and deported; spent 15 years in Siberia. I'd like to have more information on that one. I mean, before adding the article to the Category:Victims of Soviet repressions--Termer (talk) 01:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Being involved or even being a farther or a daughter of a victim does not qualify to the "victim" category. Otherwise we can safely include 90% of former Soviet population into this category. Or are you going to write an article about Robert Tasso? - Altenmann >t 19:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
London Gazette
Here is a link to the official notice of the BEM: The Four Deuces (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
- Such things must be in article page, not in talk page; especially since it adds more info, namely, the reason for the award. Fixed. - Altenmann >t 19:36, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
COI?
I see it's already been deleted, but it is not helpful to put in tags such as "conflict of interest", that is self-promotion (person or group) for a dead person without some explanation. What prompted this? PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 17:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
- Based on discussion above. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)