Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus - Misplaced Pages

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STOP these people

Copernicus's family on both sides were PRO-CATHOLIC and against the Teutonic Knights. These are hardly German characteristics. Copernicus' family had Polish Catholic qualities NOT German pagan qualities. Also Martin Luther hated Copernius because he thought he was of Polish ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 700KFF (talk • contribs) 04:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

At the time when Royal Prussia split from the Teutonic Knights there were nothing but Catholics. Being PRO-CATHOLIC before the protestant split is hardly surprising. Since the Teutonic Knighs were created as a religious order during the crusades, it is unlikely they had any pagan qualities. Actually at one time the Teutonic Order was called by the polish count Konrad I Mazowiecki to christianize the local pagan Pruzzians, which they later did, kept the land and founded the town of Toruń - a town that would later cede from the Teutonic Knights together with a couple of others and accept the Polish King as their own in personal union - forming Royal Prussia under personal union with the Polish king. The latter happened some 19 years before Kopernikus birth.

Anyway, when the Reformation spread into the region, the Grandmaster secularized the remaining state into the duchy of Prussia, and the Teutonic Order ceased to play a significant political role. None of these have any bearance on Kopernikus, but Kopernikus however DID take part in the monetary reforms of both Royal Prussia and the Duchy of Prussia, and created a map of the whole of Prussia. He seemed to have no problems to work for the protestantic Prussia once peace was secured.--ASchudak (talk) 14:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Why can't the administrators put a BLOCK on this article and stop the endless nonsensical attacks, mostly by unregistered users.

BTW, I see that the article "Marco Polo"has the same problem - Croatians, it seems, insisting that Marco polo was Croatian, not a Venetian!!

This kind of behavior is making Misplaced Pages look ridiculous, instead off the important educational site it is supposed to be.

Syrenab (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Relax and enjoy. It hardly will change anyway, having been like that for quite while. -- Matthead Discuß 01:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point! And take a look at Misplaced Pages:WikiSloth! If Misplaced Pages look ridiculous for all verbality, that's just a gentle breeze in comparison to the storms of academical debates. ... said: Rursus (bork³) 15:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

We should also note that Martin Luther, Compernicus' contemporary, called Copernicus a Pole (Samrmatic). The fact that a German contemporary refers to Copernicus as a Pole seems very important for this debate (especially since it is reported by a German university as this link shows. (http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/volltexte/2003/3254/pdf/PSDissertation.pdf). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piast (talk • contribs) 06:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sarmatic = Polish is really a very free interpretation. Luther knew, that there were Poles. But he didn't call him a Pole but sarmatic, which meant, someone, who came from the east, somewhere between Vistula and Volga, likely with the intention, to imply, far away from the contemporary centers of science. He mentioned no nationality, neither German nor Polish or Russian. --Henrig (talk) 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

At the time in question it was used as a derogatory term for Poles - Polish nobles claimed they were of Sarmatic ancestry and Roman Catholic faith, and it became a term synonymous with "Polak" among the Germans. Heidelberg University agrees with that as do other sources, such as this one(another non-Polish source citing Copernicus as Sarmatic=Polish): . Of course Nietzsche overtly calls Copernicus Polish as well. So I ask this: why do we have a quote from some random Stanford online profile of philosophers (which is really like a blog that invited some random lady with no expertise in Copernicus to write an entry) but we don't include quotes from contemporaries, leading non-Polish/non-german scholars who call claiming him to be German on par with the absurd and who explain that no one doubted his Polishness until Germans were overcome by imperialist tendencies in the mid-1800s. . Who makes changes here, and who decides what goes in the entry and what doesn't? This thing, in regards to nationality and ethnicity, needs a significant makeover as it looks foolish to anyone who stumbles upon it that has any knowledge of fact. --Piast (talk) 04:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Luther meant it derogatory for sure, likely in the sense of backwoodsman, because he considered the new teachings as a disaccord with the bible. Sarmatic sounds archaic and got in the time of romanticism a possitive sound. But the term is not only connected with Poland. Maybe, in later times, when half of the Ukraine belonged to Poland, people saw it quite the same.

Nietzsche thought to be of Polish ancestry. --Henrig (talk) 22:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Henrig - scholars, including those linked above, equate "Sarmatic" with "Polish" int he time of Copernicus, regardless of whether you think it sounds archaic, romantic, positive, etc. --Piast (talk) 06:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey I got some more for everyone - Feredric the Great called Copernicus a Pole, as did the German historian Johann Wachler. We shoudl put these in the entry as well. --Piast (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I am readint his article for the first time and it really seems biased towards the German side. I seem to recall the Wiki entry on Copernicus from a year or two ago that seemed much more well-balanced on the issue of nationality and ethnicity. Now, there seem to be various implications of German ancestry sprinkled about to imply, outside of the nationality/ethnicity section, that he was German. Very weird. Also, why is there no mention of the fact that the movement to claim Copernicus as a German was most significant during the Nazi era? It seems that this would be something important to convey. --Piast (talk) 07:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Please make necessary changes.--Jacurek (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

The naive nationalism that plagues Misplaced Pages is tiring to say the least. It certainly does undermine the credibility of the site as several have suggested. It seems worst (at least as far as Europe is concerned) with anything even vaguely related to peoples formerly within the Soviet Block. Perhaps it is only natural that after generations of repression, it takes an equal number of generations for a people to find a healthy identity and balanced national self esteem. There isn't even proof that Copernicus spoke Polish at all, yet if you look at the comments above you would think he was Polish through and through. It seems beyond these same folks that calling someone a "Pole" could also be meant as a sarcastic term for someone seemingly from the ends of the earth (and worse). Thank you for bringing up the (presumably) adolescent Croatians who would frame the Misplaced Pages article on Marco Polo to make him Croatian. It is all so tiring and inane. How about rather than trying to claim heroes from the past, you all leave a modicum of valid history in place and concentrate on creating NEW heroes here and now?

The top comment "PRO-CATHOLIC and against the Teutonic Knights. These are hardly German characteristics. Copernicus' family had Polish Catholic qualities NOT German pagan qualities." really takes the cake. It absolutely reeks of the Polish/Slavic stereotypes and resentments towards those to their West. The fact that the current pope is German, and that Germans were Christianized before Poles were makes the argument utterly laughable. When will this nonsense end? Udibi (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Lucid and insightful commentary from User:Udibi—thanks. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Reverts by Jacurek: is modern day Polish money more relevant to this article than a historic document written by Copernicus himself in the language of Polish kings, scholars, and churches: German?!

Copernicus' 1541 letter in German to Duke Albrecht of Prussia

After I had made no less than ten mostly well commented edits in an attempt to clean up and rearrange the mess of graphics cluttered all over the article, Jacurek comes along and simply reverts, like before , this time claiming "massive removal of important information restored". What I had removed, repeatedly , were three pointless images (Polish coins, Polish banknote, and yet another arbitrary bust/monument in some park) shown in the Ethnicity section in a clumsy attempt to back up his "Polishness", as well as the recently added "Mikołaj Kopernik" from the lead, a name which disrupts the fragile consensus for the lead, as it was never used by himself, having been invented by Poles centuries later. I had added a letter written by himself, in German, and the oldest bust of him, which happens to be in the Walhalla, the hall of fame of persons speaking German, which Copernicus did, undeniably. These facts apparently are unbearable to some Poles. Well, you better start to accept historical facts: Copernicus has written German, as it was his native language, and the language of his home town. No Polish language whatsoever in his life, unless he had to deal with the few non-German peasants in Masuria. In Cracow, where Queen Elisabeth of Austria (1436-1505), the mother of no less than four Jagiellon kings lived, German (and Latin) was well established, at the court, among merchants (like his fathers) and scholars, and even in St. Mary's Church. . -- Matthead Discuß 04:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Matthead, I'm sure you regard "Polish images" as "pointless". The article is a fragile compromise as regards the ethnicity issue. Please don't try to disrupt this compromise. Radeksz.

And we've been over the role of German in Polish medieval history innumerable times. Why are you trying to re-fight battles from five years ago? Radeksz.

Hello guys! Please take it easy! Please refrain from interpreting each others intentions, pointing out this and that person as doing bad, and instead concentrate on criticizing the edits. Matthead: I have some sympathy for your removal of a few images, since my OS/browser combination gets hickup and freezes if the article contain too many images, but it is an honorable thing to discuss changes on the talk page if the topic is controversial, which this topic inexplicably is. And same for reverts, Radeksz! Radeksz, would you please sign your talk replies with four tilde "~~~~", so that they become properly dated.

And, what are the controversial things with a Polish-German individual? Is this a fighting topic? ... said: Rursus (bork³) 11:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately he is not a "Polish-German" individual]. This is not simple, his nationality is clear to most, but not here.--Jacurek (talk) 14:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

What about here ? Dr. Dan (talk) 20:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

And among the myriads of examples ISBN 0-900424-76-1. The combatants of this ridiculous fight about the nationality of this German speaking Polish, should take a look at WP:VERIFY and put away their own personal views of Copernicus, Germanness and Polishness. The talk should be about sources, and not about how we would like it to be. ... said: Rursus (bork³) 12:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

(OD) Rursus, of course there shouldn't be anything controversial about a Polish-German individual. But not everyone here on these pages thinks that way. Try to make Chopin, Polish-French, or Matejko, Czech-Polish, or Dzierzon, Polish-German, or Pilsudski, Polish-Lithuanian. See how far you'll get. On the other hand try to make Smuglewicz, or his father, "Lithuanian". The farthest you'll get is posssibly Samogitian, but that's not too likely. Dr. Dan (talk) 14:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan your examples are bad, Chopin is Polish-French due to the fact that one of his parents was French but Copernicus is not Polish-German.--Jacurek (talk) 14:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, Jacurek: Copernicus is German-German, as both his parents were members of German-speaking families, also Koppernigk Senior, who had spend some time in Cracow, where many Germans resided. No Poles involved, and as the Polish proverb says, no Pole will ever be a brother to a German. Koppernigk junior was born as a German speaking citizen of a German-founded city in Prussia city which had seceded from the Monastic state to ally with the King of Poland some years earlier - on the very occasion of him marrying a German princess. As astronomer, he became known as Copernicus Torinensis, "Copernicus of Thorn", and for centuries was called Prussian, and also German. Not even the 17th century biographers Broscius and Starowolski, both patriotic Poles, disagreed with that, with Starowolski calling Copernicus a fellow countryman of Regiomontanus. Only in the late 18th century, when Poland fell apart due to internal bickering, Poles desperately tried to promote their agenda by claiming him as Polish, inventing the name Mikolaj Kopernik. Due to the Anti-German sentiment of the French in the 19th century, this was adopted there, with the English and Americans joining. Time to clean up these propaganda lies. -- Matthead Discuß 16:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No, he isn't. He is German-Polish. All the previous discussion should have indicated this even for you. However, this planet is a world of wonders. ... said: Rursus (bork³) 12:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Here go go...:) Copernicus is "German" to Matthead :)...co comments.--Jacurek (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This dispute is a proxy for the underlying dispute over Copernicus's nationality

It really isn't a matter which of these images that you are edit warring over are more or less "relevant" to the article. There are too many images in the article, and too many of them do not contribute to understanding of the subject. Likewise, much of the text throughout the article (including, but not limited to, the Ethnicity and nationality section) is surplus. These images and factoids are inserted and fought over by editors who want as many (or as few) "Polish" or "German" images, names, locations, words, and facts as they can get away with. The apparent purpose of this exercise is to amass "evidence" to support a "case" that Copernicus was either Polish, German, or neither.

However, that is not how Misplaced Pages works. Unlike original writing, Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines do not permit establishing a conclusion by drawing inferences from available facts; that is prohibited as a synthesis, which is a form of prohibited original research. For inclusion in Misplaced Pages, statements themselves must be verifiable based on what the reliable sources, preferably secondary or tertiary sources, actually say. On English Misplaced Pages, English language sources are preferred, and they are not hard to come by about a subject of such broad interest as Copernicus. Given that the content dispute over nationality has been raging on this page for years, it is startling how few reliable secondary and tertiary sources are cited that actually say that that Copernicus was German, Polish, or neither. Instead of simply arguing at each other, or asserting that the issue of Copernicus's nationality is an established fact outside of Misplaced Pages, do some research on the subject in a library (and I do not mean just what you can find on the Internet). What do the biographies on Copernicus say? What do the myriad reference works say? If the editors who are so invested issue spend a few hours in a library, and bring what they find into the article, the article would be improved and the dispute over nationality might be resolved. Under Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines, what the reliable sources actually say prevails over editors' opinions and points of view. Without doing the work of researching and assembling the reliable sources, these continuing arguments accomplish nothing. Finell (Talk) 18:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Just add both pictures, what's the problem? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That isn't the point. And no matter how many pictures are added now—and there are already too many—some editors will compete to add more German and more Polish pictures, solely for nationalistic reasons. It's a silly aspect of a fundamental and serious problem with this article. Finell (Talk) 21:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

In any case, parentage and language do not necessarily determine nationality. Countess Karolina Lanckorońska had a German mother (the daughter of Germany's ambassador to Britain in 1912–14), grew up and studied in Vienna, had a perfect command of the German language—and was nearly executed by the Germans in World War II as a member of the Polish underground resistance to Nazi Germany. Nihil novi (talk) 21:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Look guys Nicolaus Copernicus is regarded internationally as Polish astronomer. There is numerous monuments of Copernicus in Poland, schools named after him, money printed with his image etc, etc, the only problem is Misplaced Pages due to nationalistic character of some editors and possibility of arguing about such things.--Jacurek (talk) 02:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The only thing that establishes nationality, as far a Misplaced Pages is concerned, is what the reliable sources say Copernicus's nationality was, or wasn't. Misplaced Pages follows the sources. If a majority reliable sources say he was Polish (or German or neuter), then he was Polish (or German or neuter) under Misplaced Pages's policies. If there is a significant minority among the reliable sources as to Coperncus's nationality, then the article should represent the majority and minority views and sources in proportion to their prevalence in the literature. If editors edit the article contrary to the cited reliable sources, then there are mechanisms for enforcing Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines, including Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, and Reliable sources. That is all there is to it. Arguing what you think Copernicus's nationality was, or wasn't, or the basis for your position, is pointless and is irrelevant to the content of the article. Go to the library, gather the sources (fairly, not selectively), and conform the article's content to the reliable sources. That will end the dispute. Finell (Talk) 05:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

):):) It would be nice if it was so simple :)...Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Oxford World Encyclopedia, Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia identify Copernicus as Polish only Misplaced Pages does not. Why ?? Because there will be alway some radical nationalistic editor popping up with some self published or other nationalistic source who will claim otherwise. That is why we have this situations right now.:)--Jacurek (talk) 06:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC) Hopeless...--Jacurek (talk) 06:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

:) :) Copernicus was "German", Sklodowska was "French"] and "The Pope" was Italian - (from archives):):) - Wiki at its best!!:)--Jacurek (talk) 06:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Cite 15–20 more quality sources, fully and correctly, and you will have a case. "ome radical nationalistic editor popping up with some self published or other nationalistic source who will claim otherwise" can be dealt with under content policies and guidelines. Self-published isn't WP:RS. A minority view can be dealt with appropriately depending on its weight and notability, but that will not prevent reaching a conclusion. Either do some work and add more quality sources to the article, or else stop complaining. By the way, there are nationalists on both sides of this issue. Finell (Talk) 03:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

There must be some "Polish extremists" working everywhere:) O.K. then, 20 sources mostly from the universities and museums web pages confirming his nationality as POLISH ], ,, , as well as for Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Oxford World Encyclopedia, Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia etc, etc. :) Now try to correct his nationality here and see how quickly an extremist arrives. God luck:)--Jacurek (talk) 05:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)A few of these duplicate sources that are already in the article (Britannica and Encarta). Most of the others aren't quality reliable sources. One is written by Vikas and Stephen, Grade 8, Riverdale Junior Secondary School! Many of the others are by anonymous authors or on sites with no credentials. Many are insubstantial. A professor's lecture notes aren't a reliable source. Please re-read what I wrote above about going to the library, then working good quality sources with full citations into the nationality section (not simply posting blind web links on the talk page). Finell (Talk) 08:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

)No offence...my honest opinion....you will reject any sources as not reliable simply to mantain your position. This is just my opinion and I may be wrong of course. So, not even one source out of 20 is reliable to you, right?:) O.K. then please find me 20 sources, even as "not reliable" as the one I have provided that Copernicus was pure German:) such as "Copernicus a German astronomer" etc. :) R U ready for the task?:)--Jacurek (talk) 20:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I am, and Google Books has done its homework, too: Books 1 - 10 of 22 on "Copernicus a German astronomer". Jacurek, you owe Finell a crate with 20 beers, German of course, unless you have reliable secondary sources stating he prefers Polish beer. -- Matthead Discuß 21:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Almost half of these sources seem to be by two 19th century juvenile non-fiction writers. Feketekave (talk) 16:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Matthead: I like German beers, Belgian ales, Czech pilsener, English ales, and American craft brews, not necessarily in that order, and the occasional single malt scotch or Irish whiskey. Wine is my beverage of choice. My few experiences with Italian and French beers have been disappointing, in contrast to my enjoyment of their cheeses and cuisines. I cannot recall ever tasting Polish beer, but I like both Polish and German sausage. Thanks for asking. Although not relevant to how Misplaced Pages determines nationality, I would be curious about the results of searching Copernicus + German versus Copernicus + Polish (that is, not as phrases) on Google Books and Google Scholar. Finell (Talk) 03:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried Canadian Beer Finell... if not then you really should, there is not a beer in the world that taste better then Moosehead. 24.38.156.102 (talk) 01:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: I do take offense. What in the world makes you think that is my opinion? Why don't you get off your rump and go to the library, where the quality sources are? With the exception of duplicating two online encyclopedias that are already in the article, you quick, easy online search did not yield quality reliable sources (the Wolfram probably does count as a WP:RS, but not as the highest quality). You obviously paid little attention to what you gathered, or you would not have included a short paper by two children! The problem is the quality of your sources, not necessarily your conclusion. Finell (Talk) 03:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are you guys even arguing over this? There's already 5 pages in the archives on Copernicus' nationality and nobody's gonna change their mind here. We have a reasonable compromise at the moment, we're avoiding unequivocal statements, the general question is more already covered, readers can form their own opinions. Why upset this compromise/consensus? The nature of the compromise is such that no one is 100% happy but it's still the best that can be done. This, the way things are now, is probably the best you can work it out and minimize conflict - not perfect, but perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good.radek (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Radek: I don't accept what you call "a reasonable compromise". Arguments, however lengthy, do not determine content; reliabble sources do. Misplaced Pages's content guideline on biographies prescribes including nationality. Misplaced Pages routinely ascribes nationality to persons of Copernicus's era according to modern scholarship on nationality. Leonardo da Vinci is Italian, even though Italy did not exist and Leonardo, like Copernicus, identified himself by his home town. The biography guideline also says that ethnicity is normally not pertinent; what this article calls ethnicity is really what some editors consider to be evidence of Copernicus's nationality—which, as I explained above, is not the way nationality is determined under Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines. The cited encyclopedias are a reasonable basis for predicting what the scholarly consensus is on Copernicus' nationality, but the addition of other high-quality sources ought to resolve whatever dispute might arise. What you call "a reasonable compromise" is really a stalemate between, or a surrender to, two nationalistic factions, both of which are holding this article hostage. This dis-serves Misplaced Pages's readers, for whom Misplaced Pages exists. In my opinion, the years of dispute here over Copernicus's nationality can be resolved by following the most reliable sources. Once this dispute is over, other editors can work to improve this article to the quality that the historical importance subject deserves. Finell (Talk) 03:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Finell, the obvious difference between Leonardo and Copernicus as it pertains to this discussion is that sources are mostly unambiguous in relation to Leonardo but there's a variance in sources in relation to Copernicus. Of course IMO the most relevant sources (other encyclopedias, etc.) call him Polish - but I'm not gonna insist on this because I value compromise, so I'm fine with the present ambiguous presentation in the article. Of course I understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality (which, BTW, was clearly Polish, since he was a subject of the Polish king), but people are gonna mix these things up and the "proxy war" is gonna involve various users using one of them to suggest the other. Which they shouldn't. Basically, this is one of those instances where you're not gonna be able to use sources to settle the issue to everybody's satisfaction, or even a consensus, since there's a lot of different sources out there.

And sure, it's a "stalemate" as well a compromise. Not sure what the difference is in this case. Pushing it one way or another will just completely and needlessly de-stabilize the article. Again.radek (talk) 03:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Finell, Polish beer is excellent and you should try some. I do like it although I prefer Pilsner Urquell which is one of my favorites. Beer may have actually originated in Poland, and I possibly expect to see many sources demonstrating and proving that fact in the future. As for your suggestion that some of the engaged parties go to the library and do some research; it sounds like good advice, but a few of these editors are busy with other issues concerning their behavior on WP and may not be able to do so at the moment. I think allowing them some time to do further research would be fair. On the Leonardo ethnicity issue, that's pretty clear to someone thinking rationally, on the issue of Domenico Merlini or Wit Stwosz it becomes murky, at least in some quarters. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course not!! Beer preceeded the Proto-indoeuropean language, see History of beer! The then-time Polish and the then-time Germans would not know they would in the far future speak different languages. Maybe they were already fighting, but the language could be no reasonable reason, nor race. More probably by not leaning their heads together and teach each other to brew better beer. ... said: Rursus (bork³) 13:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I have learned at school that he was of German origin born into a wealthy family of merchants in the Prussian City of Thorn, growing up living in the German quarters of Cracow as part of the German minority there. He wrote his scripts either in German or Latin. However, he grow up in the Kingdom of Poland defending his chosen country against Teutonic / German aggression. To me it is clear: He was a polish astronomer of German heritage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rico Germanus (talk • contribs) 19:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

disturbing ultra-nationalist tripe

As a non-German and a non-Polish American, I was suprised to see that a man who has been dead for centuries is having his nationality fought over with such assinine vigor. The ethnicity of someone from that region that long ago is surely of mixed ethnicity (except we can probably safely rule out Inuit Eskimo); numerous diaspera from famine, plague, war/invasions, his ethnicity will likely be mixed and always subject to conjecture.

Hate to be flippant, but a German-American friend told me a joke about how Austrians always try to suggest to people that Hitler was German and that Beethoven was Austrian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.251.171 (talk) 18:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, this case is a little different because Copernicus is regarded by most as Polish, e.g.. all other serious encyclopedias list him as Polish but this one simply because of the nationalistic views of some editors. Anything is possible on Wikipiedia. Did you ever hear people warning others "Do not trust Misplaced Pages"? That is why. Copernicus may be German here, Hitler Swiss and Pope Italian.:)--Jacurek (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

He is listed here as Polish because of the policies of Misplaced Pages: MoS (biographies), and No original research, using a huge set of external sources to see what nationality he has, not because of the random balance of fighting hotheads of Polish and German nationality. I'm a swede, and neutral between Polish and Germans, but I drink ale which is British, neither Polish nor German beer. ... said: Rursus (bork³) 11:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! Being an American, what little I know of Copernicus I learned from history books and my 'go to guy' Dr. Carl Sagan from his 'Cosmos' PBS television series and he definitely referred to Copernicus as a Pole... Kepler was German and Copernicus was Polish that seems like a win win for everyone!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.251.171 (talk) 11:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard, that Poles claimed, Kepler's ethniticy to be Polish. He lived a bit too far away from Poland. --Henrig (talk) 06:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Matthead wrote on 27 June 2009: It was Niccolò Comneno Papadopoli, Italian librarian of Greek origin, who in 1726 published false claims, including that Copernicus had joined a "Polish natio" in Padua. Decades later, Poles started to claim Copernicus as Pole. Some Germans even echoed this before his biography became subject of proper research, and the historic facts became public knowledge. Present day Poles, up to government level, embarrass themselves and their nation by still desperately pretending that the German-speaking astronomer was 100% Polish.

In the time, when Poland has diappeared from the map, Polish patriotism grew to a high level and the Papadopoli forgery (not knowing, that it was a forgery) was likely highly welcome in this situation. Fact is, Poles made a lot of advertising in the world, to consider Copernicus Polish. This advertising was quite successful. --Henrig (talk) 10:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Whatever, this discussion is pointless. Issues like these are one of the main problems of Misplaced Pages. Please note that it took only few editors (usually German) to challenge the fact of Copernicus being Polish. The current status quo works even with this information missing. Readers can always refer to other encyclopedias such as Britannica if they curious about his nationality.--Jacurek (talk) 15:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Nihil novi (talk) 18:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

"Commentariolus"

Information in the Commentariolus article differs from information in this article. Most strikingly, this article says that "Commentariolus" was distributed in 1514. The Commentariolus article says the date of publication is unknown. I do not have the sources. Could someone please check the sources, find the correct facts, and harmonize these two articles and others that discuss "Commentariolus", including Copernican heliocentrism. Also, there is some information about "Commentariolus" in this article that is not in the Commentariolus article; the Commentariolus article should be Misplaced Pages's complete treatment of that work. I'm posting the same message on the other article's talk page. Thanks. Finell (Talk) 10:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Could someone with the sources please look into this? It is more important than arguing over images or adding information about monuments. Thank you. —Finell (Talk) 17:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Looking really quick

"Some time before 1514"
"First record of its existence ... early 1514"

radek (talk) 17:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The Commentariolus article cites Koyré as saying, "Some scholars believe Copernicus wrote 'Commentariolus' as late as 1533, because it describes the mature version of his theory." I found the passage in Koyré. Although it is in Koyré's chapter on the "Commentariolus", it is actually speaking about when Copernicus finished his first manuscript of De revolutionibus. I will conform the Commentariolus article to what this article says when I get a chance—unless someone else beats me to it. Thank again. (Thanks even more to whoever may beat me to it!) —Finell (Talk) 07:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Koyré makes the "Some scholars believe ... " statement in footnote 51 on p.85 (of the Hermann-Methuen hardback edition). However, he also goes on to establish that the circa 1530 date is now untenable, because a library catalogue of one Matthew of Miechow, dated May 1st, 1514, containing an obvious reference to the Commentariolus, was unearthed some time in the 1920s. I have amended the article accordingly, and shall do so to the Commentariolus article presently.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I was reading from the linked Google books page and the highlighted statement. Thanks again! —Finell (talk) 17:57, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Archive issues

Based on the request at WP:RM I have moved this back to restore the edit history. In looking at this I see that archives here are not always created in the normal way. So I'll be adding automatic archiving. This will eliminate the need to editors to have to guess how to archive the data and will keep this talk page at a reasonable length. Once the first archive run is complete, feel free to adjust the parameters to keep an appropriate amount of discussion in the active talk page. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Will the links in the archive box be automatically updated as it is currently set up? I can't see any auto=yes parameter in it at the moment. As I understand the documentation, this parameter is necessary for the links to be automatically updated. Since the current version of the box appears to have been subst'd, I don't know the proper way to add this parameter to it as it stands. I have tried replacing it with the unsubst'd template, but then I couldn't work out how to change the background colour from its default to the colour that the box currently uses.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 23:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. But I suspect it's only the links labelled with numbers immediately below the image of the filing cabinet in the archive box that will be automatically updated. I presume the links labelled with "Talk x (date from - date to)" will still have to be updated manually, but at least in the meantime there will always be a navigable link to the latest archive.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, David! —Finell (Talk) 06:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Clarification of "assumptions" in "Commentariolus"

In the section on the "Copernican system", the Copernicus subsection lists "seven assumptions" from "Commentariolus". Is the article's list of these assumptions

A direct quotation from "Commentariolus" as translated in Rosen, including the numbers?
A direct quotation of Rosen's summary or paraphrase of the assumptions, including the numbers?
Misplaced Pages's summary or paraphrase of
1. The "Commentariolus" text as translated in Rosen?
2. Rosen's summary or paraphrase of the "Commentariolus" text?
Something else?

Also, is "assumptions" idiomatically correct here? Would in be more accurate to characterize them as conclusions, or as axioms or postulates? —Finell (Talk) 17:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, #1. I think it would be better to replace the verbatim copy from Rosen's translation with a summary. When I replaced an earlier, inaccurate list of asssumptions (said to be only 6) a couple of years ago with the current list, I think I had intended eventually to get around to doing that, but, like a lot of things I have intended to get around to doing on Misplaced Pages, I never did.

I don't see anything wrong with the word "assumptions" here, which is the one Rosen uses. I think "postulates" would also be suitable, but I don't think either "conclusions" or "axioms" would be. "Conclusions" would be outright misleading, and "axioms" today carries too much the connotations of being self-evident or obvious, which those propositions certainly weren't in Copernicus's time.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 20:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. —Finell (Talk) 06:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Foreign language sources

This article makes excessive use of foreign language sources. English Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy, under the heading Non-English sources, states: "English-language sources are preferable to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify the content of the article. However, sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available." There are ample English language sources on Copernicus. It would be helpful to English Misplaced Pages's readers for editors to substitute English language sources for foreign language sources wherever possible. Thank you. —Finell (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

"People of the Polish–Teutonic War 1519–1521 (German side)"

How did Copernicus come by this category?

Which was the "German" side? The Teutonic Knights — or those ethnically-German residents of the area who opposed the Knights?

In any case, Copernicus defended Olsztyn (Allenstein) and Warmia (Ermland) against the Teutonic Knights! Nihil novi (talk) 03:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 November 3#Category:People of the Polish–Teutonic War 1519–1521. Apparently the intent was to merge the Polish- and German-side categories into Category:People of the Polish–Teutonic War 1519–1521. Instead, a bot moved everyone from the Polish side to the German side; evidently interpreting merge with as merge to. I suggest you contact the closing admin, or possibly the bot operator. For the time being, I eliminated the category from this article. —Finell 05:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Well done. I've taken your example and evacuated the rest of the Polish side from the category, leaving Duke Albert of Prussia in splendid isolation. Nihil novi (talk) 06:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

A better solution would be to fix the whole mess at its root. There was hardly any discussion of the category merger. —Finell 21:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I see several problems:

1. Obviously, if a merger was to have been done, it should have been to "Category: People of the Polish-Teutonic War of 1519–21," period.

2. In any case, it could not have been "German side" (there was no Germany), but "Teutonic Order side."

3. If there can be, as there are, separate categories "Union Army generals" and "Confederate States Army generals," then why not keep separate categories for Polish and Teutonic-Order participants in the Polish-Teutonic War of 1519-21? Where was the necessity of merging the two categories into a single one? Nihil novi (talk) 07:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Those are all reasonable points, which you can take up with the closing admin (the admin appears to be conscientious based on my prior experience) or to initiate a review of the decision to merge. Very few editors commented in the merger discussion, so the result is not carved in stone. —Finell 07:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

not quite right as the English translation Teutonic Order does not fit well... This Order still exist an it is called Deutscher Ritterorden or Deutschritterorden (German Knights Order) and clearly emphasises its connection with the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations where it has been derived to gain land in the east and to secure and spread Catholicism. (This was a posting by SineBot on 25 Dec without visible signature. My posting follows below.) --Henrig (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of Germans fought against the Teutonic order! It was a long tradition, that small German speaking realms chose frequently those as higher ranking head, who promised them the most independence. The spoken language of this head was quite uninteresting.

After 1420 (according to my memory starting 1429 in Lübeck soon followed by Hamburg and many other Hanseatic cities) there were uprisings in many western Hanseatic cities against the ruling class of the established merchants. This made the Hanseatic League incapable of action, which had undesirable effects for the eastern Hanseatic cities. So the Teutonic Order tried to use the opportunity to abolish the widely independance of the Hanseatic cities in his area, like for instance Thorn (, where later Copernicus was born). And the cities then allied with the king of Poland against the Teutonic Order, who assured the cities, independence within their city walls and not to rule there. Warmia later joined the uprising. This was the origin of the later ongoing.

To construct from this a conflict of nationalities is really totally nonsense, depending on a thought pattern of the 19th century!

--Henrig (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity section

The "Ethnicity" section has little to do with ethnicity. Which side of a war some relative fought on have nothing to do with Copernicus' genetic heritage. The languages that he spoke and wrote have nothing to do with any definition of ethnicity. The material on Copernicus' parents should be consolidated with the article's first discussion of his family. Most of the section's content, perhaps even all of it, should be moved to other parts of the article. —Finell 20:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. Nihil novi (talk) 03:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this as well. Most or all of the content is appropriate for other sections. --Piast (talk) 05:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Mother's family

From Piast's new additions:

Copernicus' uncle, Lucas WatzenrodeNicolaus’ mother, Barbara Watzenrode, was the daughter of Lucas Watzenrode the Elder and his wife Katherine (nee Modlibóg).

The results by Google search say always nee "Von Rüdiger". But there was a noble family with the doublename "Von Rüdiger-Modlibog" in Copernicus hometown. An interesting question would be, if this name already existed in Copernicus time or if it was the result of a later marriage. --Henrig (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure. However, I believe she was married once before prior to marrying Lucas the Elder - this may or may not be the Von Rüdiger. A local German historian, Gottfried Centner (1712-1774), wrote about the genealogies of Torun families and termed her a Modlibog. Koyre's research seems to have confirmed that. --Piast (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

This should be settled in the major biographies of Copernicus. The Internet brings a wealth of information to our fingertips, but it is not a substitute for a library. —Finell 23:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, ADB and NDB are printed biographies, also available online (without the help of Google), just like Hans-Dietrich Lemmel in "Genealogie" Heft 1-2/1993. The NDB of 1957 says that NCs grandma Katherina Watzelrode, probably born Rüdiger, was the widow of Heinrich Peckau, who had been an alderman (Schöffe/Schöppe) in Thorn. Apparently, the statement that she was from a family "Rüdiger gente Modlibog" was made by Centner based on a genealogy he had received from a friend in Elbing. So this is a mere rumour, not backed up by any document from city archives in the 250 years that have passed since. While Polish bios still seem to assert a connection of "Modlibog" to the Rüdiger family, and thus to the astronomer, German sources seem to have stopped reminding of the lack of sources for that name. -- Matthead Discuß 02:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is the geneology mere rumor? Are there any English language sources available? I can understand why you may question as Polish source, but Koyre is quite respected and renowned for his work. --Piast (talk) 04:31, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

There are ample English language biographies, so these should be used. I believe that Rosen and Gingerich are the most respected authorities on Copernicus. —Finell 02:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree we should not be using Polish or German language sources given how much has been written on the topic in English and that this is the English Misplaced Pages site. I've got a few Rosen books coming, I'll review those. Gingerich doesn't go into the genealogy - he just states unconditionally that he was Polish. You are right though - Gingerich is a great source with no "horse in this race" given he is neither Polish nor German. Interestingly, he sat on a committee of academics and astronomers who did various Copernicus study answering, among other questions, what nationality should be ascribed to the astronomer (Polish, which is the way he himself refers to Copernicus dozens of times in "The Book Nobody Read"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piast (talk • contribs) 04:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Is there a specific reason such an elaborate genealogy is included in the article to begin with? A cursory look at other historical figures in science and math shows that there is no such space devoted to heritage for those figures. 24.193.91.80 (talk) 07:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There is "a specific reason", but it is not a good reason. The reason is that editors with pro-German and pro-Polish points of view lard the article's content with unnecessary mention of things Polish and German, either to "claim" Copernicus as one of their own or to deny the other nation's claim to him. It is a sublimation of centuries of mindless war, re-fought by anonymous warriors on their keyboards. For further details, if you like, you can pore over the article's edit history, the discussions on this talk page, and lots more discussions preserved for posterity in the talk page archives. If you do not have similar nationalistic intentions, you are welcome to try to improve the article.—Finell 07:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Voivodeship" and "Province"

The Polish term "województwo" really should be rendered on the English Misplaced Pages as "province." That is the most common English rendering for the major administrative divisions of most countries.

The only semi-rational justification that has been given for using the barbarism "voivodeship" or "voivodship" (there is not even consensus on how to spell the word) instead of "province" is that, until the completion of the partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795, the cognate Polish "prowincyja" (as it was then spelled) was idiosyncratically used to designate several still greater divisions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth—Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Royal Prussia.

That is hardly a good reason to saddle a modern country with an "English" term as odd as "voivodeship," in preference over "province." A disambiguation is secured easily enough by rendering "prowincyja" into English as "Region." Thus "województwo" is "province" ("Lublin Province"), and "prowincyja" is "Region" ("Royal Prussia Region")

The Polish "prowincyja" and the English "province" are what, in translation theory, are known as "false friends." The former, Polish expression should not be rendered into English as "province" but as "region." Nihil novi (talk) 09:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good - change made. --Piast (talk) 10:05, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Please remember that Royal Prussia was legally not a part of the Kingdom of Poland until the Union of Lublin in 1569. Royal Prussia was reigned by the Polish King in personal union, but was autonom. Thus any reference to Turun/Thorn or Ermland being in or part of the Kingdom of Poland are at least misleading, if not outright wrong (just as any part of the Duchy of Lithuania at that time was not part of the Kingdom of Poland, or Saxony and Poland were different states under August). Following that line (without touching his cultural identity) one can claim that Copernicus was a subject of the Polish king, but not a citizen of the Kingdom of Poland.--ASchudak (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Would Copernicus have inherited Polish citizenship from his father, who had moved to Royal Prussia from the Polish capital, Kraków? Nihil novi (talk) 15:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I doubt that "citizenship" of any kind was inherited, since that concept did not really exist at that time. Even today citizenship is rarely inherited to children if you move from one country to another. His father probably gave him Polish cultural background, though he did marry a wife from a German family and hold an office that was usually reserved for Germans in Thorn.

I think the difference between "Polish" and "German" at that time was probably a lot less important then it is today - at least in the upper classes were wealth or status defined who you were, not where your family came from. His well situated mothers family who took care of him after the untimely death of his father seemed to be part of the (German) upper class of Royal Prussia, where he spend most of his productive life. Anyway, after 1569 all these Germans (and Lithuanians, and other peoples) became part of the Kingdom of Poland and thus Poles, just with different ethnical background. If Poland today claims Kopernikus as part of its heritage, it is well within their rights and totally justified. To deny that Kopernikus lived within a cultural German society, however, seems to belittle that. In the 15th century Poland was able to integrate German groups (among others) into its society (one third of Krakows population at that time had German background), and its protection was sought after by that part of Prussia which is later called "Royal", for they acknowledged the Polish King as their King.

Neither exclusive claim, Kopernikus being German or being Polish, acknowledges this, and so either makes him, Poland, and the late medieval Europe smaller then they were.--ASchudak (talk) 00:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"totally justified"? Copernicus was about as Polish as Jesus was Italian - or less. In his own works, he often speaks of Prussia, but never of Poland. That lack of interest was mutual. The first 300 years after his birth, Poland and the Poles barely took notice of Copernicus, save for participation in the banning of his book. The Poles abused his altered name in jingoistic politicial campaigns of the 19th and 20th century. It is embarrassing for 21st century Poland to continue claiming a German-speaking person like Copernicus as "Polish" based on a 15th century alliance between Prussians and the Polish king. Also, the claim that the father Niklas Koppernigk may have been of Polish culture is very weak, too, as he definitively spoke German very well, unlike his contemporary Gregory of Sanok who as a young boy "came to Cracow to further his education and begin a career, but he found that doors were closed to him because he knew no German, the language of the city's urban and academic patriciate." Koppernigk senior was a merchant who came from Cracow, a city with said high percentage of Germans among merchants, to Thorn, an almost exclusively German city. He became a citizen and served there as de:Schöffe (alderman), which required very good German language skills. All the minutes of the aldermen sessions are in German, and they are preserved, as they were stored outside of the townhall, which sadly burned down around 1700. The documents even occasionally mention Polish persons and names, which cleary distinguishes them from the local German Prussians. For example, Niclas Koppernigk in 1480 sold a house to the "polnische greger, dem korssner" ( "the Polish Gregory, the furrier"). It is proven that Copernicus, his parents, and his cultural environment spoke German, while there are only speculations about some basic Polish to deal with the Slavic minority of the rural population. -- Matthead Discuß 03:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Work Section

What would everyone think of making "Work" a major section like "life"? We could then have subsections that discuss Military, Medical, Church and Coin Reform career/accomplishments, then go into Heliocentrism, The Book, and Death as it is now? Right now the sections seems a bit overwhelming with the discussion of so many different topics - it seems like it could use some organization? --Piast (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Excellent idea. Nihil novi (talk) 02:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Better yet, since his life did not end with his "education," why not just delete the "Work" heading and insert appropriate "Life" subsections for his military, medical, church, coin-reform, etc., activities? Nihil novi (talk) 02:25, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the first idea. It might be a good idea for his astronomy to be a separate section, since it requires its own subsections. Also, all his other work involved his employment and duties, whereas astronomy was his avocation. —Finell 02:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

How about retitling the first as "Early Life" and then having a Work section, followed by Astronomy? Let me know what you all think, I can make changes tomorrow or the next few days. --Piast (talk) 03:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Excellent, in my opinion. And fold all the material on the mother's and father's family, culled from the rest of the article, into subsections of early life? —Finell 04:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking - have (1)EARLY LIFE include everything currently under "Life," then have a new section (2)WORK (or career) with Church, Medical, Military, and Coin Reform as subsections. Then (3) HELIOCENTRIC THEORY with content including "Heliocentrism" and "the book." Question is what to do with Death - make it a fourth main section followed by COPERNICAN SYSTEM? Please let me know thoughts. --Piast (talk) 04:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I would combine your 3 and 4 into one section called "Copernican heliocentrism" (which would also include all material from the "Copernicanism" section), with subsections for chronological periods, some of which are marked by his writings; I would start this section with heliocentric predecessors and the prevailing geocentric theory, then his study of and work in astronomy in his university years (rather than describing this under and education subsection beyond mentioning astronomy as one of his fields of study). In my opinion, it is most important to get across the main themes and importance of the astronomy work, but to avoid excessive duplication of what is treated in detail in the other articles (Copernican heliocentrism, Commentariolus, Narratio Prima, De revolutionibus orbium coelestium). I like your idea of calling the second main section "Career" rather than "Work". The first main section could be called "Early life" or "Early life and family". The article has needed a major reorganization for some time (related material is scattered among different sections), in my opinion, but I haven't had time to devote to it. And congratulations to Piast and Novi for the good reorganizing and editing already done. —Finell 07:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, I can take the lead to try to tackle this during the week as I think it will be a bit of work but IMO much needed to get this article up to high standards as far as organization and readability. --Piast (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Origin of heliocentrism

I would like to point out that Copernicus was actually not the first to "displace the earth from the center of the universe," as the official Misplaced Pages page of Nicolaus Copernicus says in the first paragraph. Copernicus actually found the idea from an unpopular Greek astrology theory and although never doubting the idea of Aristotle and astronomy up to Copernicus's day, he was interested with the idea and studied the possibility of the theory, actually proving it correct the year he died in 1543 by publishingOn the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres. Although Copernican ideas changed the perspective of astronomy to a solar (revolving around the sun) system, rather than the origional Aristotle hypothesis of an Earth centered universe, it's techinally not the first time the idea of a solar revolved system was invisioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OutlineTheChalk (talk • contribs) 01:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

This history is already covered in the article, although improvement is always welcome. In terms of cultural impact, Copernicus initiated the re-examination and ultimate acceptance of heliocentrism, which according to many scholars marked the beginning of the scientific revolution. Welcome to Misplaced Pages! —Finell 02:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Self-portrait?

Copernicus was not a bishop, who was painted because of his office and got famous after his death. Early portraits (decades after his death) may have been painted according descriptions (big broken nose, a scar above the left eye, not fat, broad chin, clearly visible cheekbones etc.), but it was always speculation whether perhaps a self-portrait could have been a base. There were frequently some speculations, that Copernicus could have painted such a self-portrait.

By the way, formerly there were speculations about the portrait from Torun (Thorn) to be the speculative assumed self-portrait itself. This speculation might have been the base, to date it to the early sixteenth century, the date written also in the article for a long time. But scientific research clarified, that this is not possible. (Among other things the wood of the ground came from a tree, felled in 1571 Page 55.

Piast writes now repeatedly about a self-portrait, for instance

"He signed a self-portrait, now at Jagiellonian University, 'N Copernic.'".

If such a self-portrait (discovered in the last few years) exists, it must be quite famous. Or the authenticity is at least not widely acknowledged and quite doubtful.

(In the last centuries some such claims of a self-portrait appeared.) By the way, after the discovery of the scull and the reconstruction of the head, everybody can compare it with a claimed self-portrait and easily decide for himself, whether he sees ample similarity. So please supply a link to the picture and a clear citation! --Henrig (talk) 18:48, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The most credible claim is that of the portrait on the Strasbourg astronomical clock, which was made by Tobias Stimmer after a (self?-)portrait donated by Tiedemann Giese's family. It is labeled "Nicolai Copernici vera effigies ex ipsius autographo depicta". As for Piast's references for a signed self-portrait in Cracow: they aren't. refer to two dead web links, while points to Britannica online, which cites "Credits : Courtesy of the Museum of Jagiellonian University, Kraków, Poland". That museum apparently has the website http://www.maius.uj.edu.pl/index.pl.html, which links to a very reliable source for "Mikołaj Kopernik astronom" (and others). Hilarious. -- Matthead Discuß 23:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The reference for the portrait is Brittanica. If you go to the entry and click on the image, the portrait comes up. You can also access the portrait directly at . I will make a change to the entry. --Piast (talk) 01:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I've seen the image at britannica.com, thanks. What I expect, though, is that the Jagiellonian University website shows it, just like it does with the manuscript of "de revolutionibus", and that reliable sources discuss the validity of the claims connected to it. -- Matthead Discuß 15:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, a bit disappointing. I've envisaged an original from Copernicus lifetime, available to scientific research, not a l17th century painting, claimed to be the copy of an original. But the painter was quite skillfull. But the copy of an original? Who knows? --Henrig (talk) 10:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

There are scholars who make a career (literally) out of knowing these things. Has anyone done library research about the portrait?—Finell 02:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Current text

The text currently says "Latin was...the official language of the Catholic Church". At that time and later, the official languages of the Catholic Church were Latin, Greek, Armenian, Coptic, Old Slavonic, Syriac and Ethiopic. All seven were used in older forms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.36.65 (talk) 13:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Would saying "Latin was... the predominant language of the Catholic Church" be more accurate? --Piast (talk) 01:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but our anonymous commentator may be objecting to using Catholic to mean Roman Catholic.—Finell 02:37, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

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