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Climate Change

Initiated by tedder (talk) at 02:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Involved parties

...The following are below the "550 edits" threshold but were originally named.

Administrators (involved in an admin capacity)

* Editor/admin has been notified about this case.

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Tedder

In most pages related to climate change, editors have shown an astounding amount of editwarring, ownership of talk pages (!), tendentious editing, and a refusal to bend to any consensus. Some of the articles include these:

This issue, besides consuming an amazing amount of space on their respective talk pages, also spill over to WP:RFPP, WP:AN3, and WP:ANI on a very regular basis. Here are some examples that are currently live on ANI, plus the last one, which is from my own (admin) involvement in the situation.

Note the list of users involved is a partial list; it's a list of major editors I quickly identified and is not intended to be comprehensive. Some of these editors are certainly "overinvolved", others may not be.

Response to Jayron32
Including Ten* was an accident, but I included you on purpose because you've made admin actions related to these pages. tedder (talk) 04:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
(reply x2) I'm not implicating anyone- I just did a survey of editors and admins who are involved, not editors who are in the wrong in some way. tedder (talk) 04:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
(reply x3, I think) Probably worth taking this off the case (ie to a talk page), but you're just included for having made an admin action, not for doing something wrong. In other words, you're an admin who has been involved in trying to help settle disputes. tedder (talk) 04:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Response to arbitration, as of this edit
I'll go through and weed/sort the list of editors by involvement- I request 24 hours to get this done. tedder (talk) 04:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I modified the above editor/admin list. It turns out 'narrowing' it to editors with more than 30 edits among those four pages (eight, because I counted the talk pages) in the past three months is too large of a list- 233 editors. I chose an arbitrary "550 combined edits" threshold to capture the top dozen editors. Honestly, it's arbitrary, as there are many editors below that limit that should be included.
I also manually tabulated admins who had protected those articles or talk pages in the past three months and put those stats up also. I did not look at other admin actions (blocking), nor did I correlate their involvement on talk pages.
For completeness, 178 editors made > 30 talkpage edits, 93 editors (presumably the same ones) made > 30 article edits. Let me know if I should notify the users and admins that I've added to this list, or if you'd like me to share the results and/or slice/dice them in some way. I also didn't try adding any other articles to the list- I suspect my list of four articles is incredibly incomplete. tedder (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by TenOfAllTrades

I'm not entirely sure why I'm listed as a party – of the five articles listed by Tedder, I've edited only one (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), and made only two edits ever – but here we go.

That said, I freely acknowledge that my lone two edits were reverts. The first revert was of a minority POV-pusher with a week-old account, who has been edit warring since he arrived and had already been blocked once for his conduct at these articles, including making exactly the same edits: Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), User talk:Marknutley#Blocked. My second revert was of GoRight, who 'undid' my edit without explanation or discussion of any kind after being encouraged to get involved by Marknutley: . (Marknutley, at his 3RR limit for the day, contacted GoRight to seek instructions on how to file a – inaccurate – 3RR report on William M. Connolley. I need not remind the ArbCom of GoRight's past history with global warming topics in general and William Connolley in particular.) GoRight promptly reverted me a second time, at which point I declined further involvement.

I would endorse a 1RR limit on climate change articles, as well as extended semiprotection of the articles in this area. There seems to be a painful influx of blog-driven agenda-pushing, and it is making it impossible for moderate, more experienced editors to get anything done. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) Literaturegeek

I have never edited any climate change related article but I have recently been following the drama on and off on article talk pages in recent months after the climate change email hacking incident became global news. I have read various disputes on a number of noticeboards over the years. There are intense emotions regarding this subject, I have been tempted to inject myself as a voice of reason into discussions but due to the abuse and character assasinating I have always felt repelled from doing so. Basically there are two extremes. One side wants any and all criticism labeled as fringe and deleted. Typically ad hominen attacks and comparing apples and oranges tactics are employed to shoot down their opponents by comparing them to AIDS denialists, antiscientists and homeopathic believers and so forth instead of addressing what needs to be addressed and that is the sources, applying standards such as WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. Here is an extreme example of extremist viewpoints of an ip editor comparing skeptics to the holocaust., Then from the other extreme accusing man made global warming advocates of being part of a global socialist agenda. One extreme trys to violate WP:UNDUE by giving undue weight to minority viewpoints, using primary sources to debunk secondary sources and so forth and even promoting inappropriately conspiracy theories. I believe the fringe noticeboard is abused as a place to "take down" opposing views. Disputes are often personalised, with allegations of being paid by the oil companies or paid by the carbon tax industry. I think that most (but not all) editors who are a voice of reason and who are willing to set their viewpoints aside and follow WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV have been chased away by the intense and abusive atmosphere. The result is we are left with extremists on both sides. I would therefore urge arbcom to accept this long-over due case. It is my view that for this dispute to be resolved that it needs to be seen as primarily an WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV issue as well as behavioural issue as well. Minority viewpoints involving scholarly disagreements and controversies should be given low weight, not simply edit warred out of articles mercilessly. If arbcom sides with one side over the other this dispute will be perpetuated for goodness knows how long and will never be resolved. What is needed is calm to be restored so the climate related articles become attractive for people with level heads to edit without being attacked. I hope that my post gives some insite and in the end helps to resolve this dispute.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 03:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

If one is to look at these people's articles, Richard_Lindzen#Expert_witness_fees_and_expenses, Fred_Singer#Consulting, they describe connections to oil companies and rightly so, but when conflicts of interest related to making money from carbon trading is cited it is edit warred out of articles leading to page locking., , Why should one COI be allowed but another type of COI be edit warred out of articles? Then here we are again with this article,Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change and Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident locked due to a content dispute where both sides have dug in their heels.

John Quiggin I am aware of no controversy in the public or amongst scientists about passive smoking but see from the article page there was some industry distorted scientific studies but I think comparing apples and oranges in and of itself is not scientific to prove a scientific point. There is controversy over some of the data used by climatologists, Stephen_McIntyre#The_Hockey_stick_controversy and here Hockey stick controversy and you will see that there are legitamate scientific disagreement about the statistical data voiced by groups such as American Geophysical Union and the American Statistical Association. I am not an expert in climate literature and I am not here to define the "truth" of climate change. I agree that the mainstream view must be given the most prominance, of course, but criticisms shouldn't be edit warred out of articles; well sourced controversies and scholarly disagreements should be included following policies such as WP:DUE and WP:NPOV, that is all that I am saying. I just saw this pop up on my watch list and felt appealing for the policies of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE could resolve this dispute. I still believe that WP:FRINGE is often being misapplied or sometimes even abused as a way to get around WP:NPOV which is a policy and WP:RS; I have seen it done on other articles unrelated to climate change. I shall bow out gracefully now and hope that my posting helps encourage some common sense solution to this dispute. Best wishes to everyone here and have a happy new year! :)--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 05:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

John Quiggin I never said those agencies were opposed to man made climate theory. What I meant was what I said above but to be clearer, that there is some scientific debate over flaws over some of the statistical data. This is part of the problem, I make a small comment in a neutral posting about this wide ranging dispute and then it is taken out of context and fringe is brought up again. This is one reason people are intimidated from voicing any sort of view on any aspect or controversy whatsoever on these articles. Good luck and I wish you the best in this arbcom.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Beeblebrox

I have been only marginally involved in these matters, and then only in an administrative capacity. While I was the one "holding" the protection on Scientific opinion on climate change I was astounded at the amount of arguing over minutiae on the talk page. The sheer volume and pace of it would be off-putting to most editors that do not wish to make editing and arguing over this group of articles the sole focus of their Misplaced Pages activities. Several of these articles have had to fully protected repeatedly to stop edit warring, sometimes over the pettiest of details. I believe, as do many others, that climate change will be the defining issue of the coming years, and as such these issues are likely to persist for a very long time. I also suspect there may be some users involved here who have conflicts of interest, of either a fiduciary or philosophical nature, that have clouded their judgement in these matters. As such, I believe all articles related to climate change/global warming/carbon emissions etc should be put on indefinite probation, with sanctions for those who edit disruptively. I would add that this problem is coming from all sides, from those who feel climate change must be addressed now to those who believe it is a hoax, and everyone in between, and as such general sanctions rather than targeting specific camps or individuals seems the best solution. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by unnamed party John Quiggin

I haven't been editing these pages for a while, but I would like to put a view directly opposed to that of LiteratureGeek above. In scientific terms, these pages call for a straightforward application of WP:FRINGE. There is no difference, in terms of the unqualified position of all relevant scientific bodies between this issue and those of the examples given by LiteratureGeek or, to take one with which I am most familiar with, having participated in an almost identical Wiki debate, Passive smoking. In both cases, the relevant scientific bodies are unanimous in their view, and the antiscience position emerges from a set of thinktanks (almost 100 per cent overlap between the two), a handful of dissident scientists (high overlap) and a body of public/political opinion driven by wishful thinking. The only difference is that the antiscience position on the issue is held by a large and influential body of political opinion in the US and some other English speaking countries. User:GoRight self-identifies with this body. And this difference is only a reflection of the Global Viewpoint problem. AIDS denialism is, or was, similarly politically influential in South Africa, and if a large proportion of our editors came from SA we would no doubt have the same kinds of problems on articles on this topic. The correct solution is to enforce WP:WEIGHT and explicitly label views opposed to those of all major scientific communities as WP:FRINGE in all articles concerned with the facts of the matter. Antiscience views belong in Politics of global warming and nowhere else.JQ (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Responding to LiteratureGeek who says " you will see that there are legitamate (sic) scientific disagreement about the statistical data, with groups such as American Geophysical Union and the American Statistical Association." What do you mean by this? Both organizations endorse the scientific consensus position as do all national academies of science, major scientific organizations etc. The opinions of non-experts such as you and me, both regarding the substantive truth of AGW and the balance of opinion in the scientific literature should carry zero WP:WEIGHT here. We have authoritative statements from the most reliable sources - anything else is automatically WP:FRINGE and needs to be treated as such, just as it is on topics like creationism where the antiscience viewpoint isn't supported by such a large group of editors. JQ (talk) 07:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by unnamed party, Wikidemon

I have not participated much on climate change articles so I have very little by way of evidence, opinion, or concern as to whether this matter is suitable for arbitration at this time. For the record, although there are some harsh but fair words exchanged between me and User:Rd232 on the AN/I thread cited in the arbitration request, I have no beef with RD232 and as far as I am concerned that issue is closed. We've since had an open and supportive discussion on our respective talk pages and I think we're in agreement, including being comfortable with where we agree to disagree. I'm not so upbeat about the involvement of some of the other editors, as I've seen considerable edit warring, incivility, argument over process, a rush to accuse people of bad faith, and a breakdown of communication among those with different opinions, all during my very brief and peripheral participation here. It's been quite a ride - I've been hauled before AN/I, threatened with a block, and called a climate change denier and member of a "clique of right-wing editors" perpetrating "one of the most blatant acts of bad faith I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages", all for making an earnest but perhaps hasty attempt to edit content. Wasn't it less than a year ago that stood here accused of being part of the liberal cabal? *sigh* When you dip your toe in the water and something bites you, that's probably a good sign to find a different pond. Even if I did have some constructive ideas to add to climate change articles, or help to offer ArbCom here, it's just not worth subjecting myself to that.

I do wish everyone the best and hope for a productive outcome, though. Per a funny little template I've been working on lately, Smiley Sorry!

I'm hoping to step back and spend a little more time with my funny little template, and less time making other editors feel bad or allowing them to get to me. Best, - Wikidemon (talk) 04:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jayron32

Like TenOfAllTrades and Beeblebrox, I am unsure why I have been named as party to this case. I agree with the filing, in that I have observed widespread conflict along a wide spectrum of Climate Change-related articles, and it is getting very out of hand. This is exactly the sort of thing that ArbCom needs to step in to work out, as I think that both sides have failed to reach any thing resembling resolution on this, and it has been non-stop for weeks now.

All of THAT having been said, I am still unclear on why I am named a party here. The sum total of my involvement in these articles is as follows:

  • I protected Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change about 7-8 hours ago as a result of a request at WP:ANI. I had not edited that article before, indeed I had never even watchlisted it before the request, but upon reviewing the history, I thought it prudent to enact protection to discourage widespread edit warring.
  • I closed a discussion at WP:ANI that was getting out of control over the insertion of a POV tag by Prodego on the article Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident. The discussion was going nowhere (IMHO) and was looking to decend into some incivil territory, so I thought it prudent to close it. Others disagreed, and it was reopened. I got a bit pissy on my talk page over it, and I am sorry about that.

Beyond these two actions, I have not once, to my knowledge, ever made a substantive edit to any article or talk page or discussion regarding climate change or any article thereof. I would appreciate it if the person who started this thread could elaborate on which of these two actions made me involved in the dispute as a party. --Jayron32 04:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply to tedders reply to me: So, being an uninvolved admin who acted in good faith on a request to stop an edit war makes me in the wrong here? How so? Can you elaborate on where my protection of that article was against any policy or guideline or where making a single admin action makes me party to this dispute? I just want to know where that went wrong so that I can avoid misusing my tools in this way in the future... --Jayron32 04:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Reply to tedders reply to me replying to him replying to me (I think I got those all). So, if I am involved, perhaps you can tell everyone which side of the debate I am involved on. Because I certainly don't know, and it would be enlightening to see where in this dispute my actions show me as being on one side or the other? --Jayron32 04:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Reply yada yada tedders blah blah blah: OK. Cool. I just misunderstood the nature of ArbCom cases. I've not often been named as a party to a case, indeed only once, and I've not seen where someone had been named as a party to a case where the originator of the case was not asking for some direct sanctions against said parties. I was thinking of "involved" as meaning what the WP:INVOLVED policy says 'invovled' means, which is the only context of the use of the term involved has come up. I apologize for being so confused here, since you were using an oft-used term at Misplaced Pages in a context it is not often used in. Sorry, it's my bad. Carry on. --Jayron32 04:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by JohnWBarber

Dammit, I agree with everything Wikidemon said as far as general points (I'll assume he's right about the specifics regarding himself). Even though I lean toward the climate-is-changing side and made a few edits which have stuck in the article, crap like this , from User:Scjessey, who was topic banned from another political area by ArbCom in the past, and POV-pushing, gaming-the-system crap like this caused me to walk away from the article. Any editor who actually wants to collaborate with others to create an NPOV article would be crazy to touch Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident -- or any politically controversial article on Misplaced Pages. I suppose it's not always easy to see just what a piece of crap a POV-pushed article is unless you know something about the topic -- but believe me (or do some research yourself), it's a piece-of-crap article that makes Misplaced Pages look pathetic and does no service for our readers. This will continue to be the case with many (maybe most) articles on controversial topics until ArbCom gets serious with some of these editors, not just Scjessey, who have been POV pushing for some time, with many complaints brought up, usually not dealt with (or treated with kid gloves) by arbs or admins. You know, you don't have to put up with POV pushers: And if you're worried that enforcing NPOV editing policy with sanctions is too distasteful, you could always enforce the behavioral violations around the POV-pushing incidents with punctilio: You point out when they violate policies on edit warring, incivility, gaming the system, battleground behavior, talk-page behavioral standards, NPA -- and clip their wings with severe topic bans and blocks. Or continue playing Whack-a-Mole with repeat offenders as if they're not harming the encyclopedia much. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 05:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Unitanode

I just wanted to state that like Wikidemon -- but to a lesser extent -- I dipped my toe in editing a BLP about one of the skeptics (I don't remember which one right now). I tried to work with Connolley and Peterson, in an attempt to deal with some potentially problematic BLP stuff, as well as serious NPOV concerns. Connolley was very antagonistic, even changing and removing talkpage comments from me and a couple of other editors. After that experience, I watched in discouragement as all balance was removed from the article about the Emails, and anyone who attempted to apply NPOV was shouted down on the talkpage. I stayed out, based on my previous experience with some of the editors involved, but the climate articles -- and the behavior surrounding them -- are becoming a bit of a shame to WP. Some type of remedy needs to be passed to fix this, and to provide guidance to editors at those pages. UnitAnode 06:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by ChyranandChloe

I'm not listed as an involved party, so I'll be brief. Dispute resolution has not been exhausted. There are no ongoing edit wars, no serious personal attacks, no RFC/U, few if none administrative actions. A RfC entails outside opinion, the two listed on GW are mainly continued discussions from editors already involved. The ANI case is more descriptive. The discussion lacks actionable, verifiable, reasonable substance. Talk page guidelines and forum are the real issues. I think this is silly sensationalism, but acknowledge that a case to set precedent on talk page mechanics would be good. Controversy can be attributed to holiday rush and climategate, it can be brought up again if it doesn't cool down. ChyranandChloe (talk) 06:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Addum, I apologize to the arbitration committee for a factual inaccuracy in my previous statement. There has been considerable degree of administrative action as provided by Tedder, since I actively track Global warming and Scientific opinion on climate change which are not protected. I would also like to add my statement of confusion, since some of the involved editors listed do not engage in discussion across all the pages listed and that this request may be the culmination of many disputes not one. ChyranandChloe (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by GoRight

I shall make no statement here until I see a clear articulation of what the dispute actually is that Tedder seeks to have addressed. I certainly feel that there is plenty of room for improvement in the atmosphere on the GW articles, so to the extent that something to improve that might actually come out of this I am more than happy to participate.

I would suggest that Tedder should try to formulate a specific articulation of what the dispute is and what the specific results he would hope to achieve actually are.

I will also endorse Literaturegeek's summarization of the prevailing atmosphere as being generally even handed and accurate. --GoRight (talk) 06:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Tedder's list of pages I would think that a couple of representative BLPs should also be included if this goes anywhere, Fred Singer, William M. Gray, Richard Lindzen, James Hansen, and Michael E. Mann are all likely to be representative candidates for controversy. I am not suggesting that you need to be redoing your analysis, nor am I suggesting that the all need to be included. It's just something to think about if you want to hit the trouble spots on the AGW pages. --GoRight (talk) 07:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Responses to other editors

  • @Guettarda: "Oh, and by the way - I'm not sure what sort of a time frame Tedder is using to pick the "top" editors, but whatever it is, it's far too broad if it includes an editor who hasn't edited (at least not under than user name) since May of 2008." - A most comical statement. I have no doubt that Guettarda knows full well that the editor to which he refers is also listed under a different name with more recent edits. (Diffs available upon request.) And he wonders why people call him disingenuous? His comment is clearly intended to deceive. --GoRight (talk) 09:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by ("uninvolved") Awickert

4 bullets in 2 sections for rapid readability:

  1. Regarding civility and efficiency. Synopsis: Don't think RfAr can help.
    • I very much want the global warming pages to be more civil and productive
    • Civility on these pages requires not only the tough skill of polite online conversation between people who strongly disagree with one another, but also the ability to shrug aside consistent aggravation by sockpuppets, trolls and single-purpose accounts while trying to maintain a high signal-to-noise ratio. Arguments tend to spiral out of control as one insult "deserves" another and another.
    • I don't think an arbcomm "decision from on high" can create civility. No amount of legislation can make these talk pages more productive. What is required is a universal will to rise above unkind words and be the big person in each and every situation.
  2. Something that may help. Synopsis: Official clarification of quasi de facto peer-review requirement
    • One item that would help is extreme clarity in Misplaced Pages policy, especially with respect to sourcing. In particular, it would be nice WP:RS could clarify/officialize the quasi de facto peer review requirement for science on these highly-controversial pages. Very specific Wiki-legislation could pave the way for fewer arguments. I honestly don't know if this is an appropriate desire to come via arbitration, and suspect that it is something that should be done via other avenues.

Awickert (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by non-party Mackan79

It's too bad, but I am skeptical of what ArbCom can do in a case brought by a relatively uninvolved party. I'm used to seeing ArbCom step in where two or more people have come to their wits' ends with each other, and need arbitration. I'm less sure what ArbCom does when someone else says "hey, look at this mess here." Do editors have evidence? I've seen some things that concern me, but certainly I don't have any evidence.

That said, there is a real problem with the influx of socks and SPAs in this area, and at least partly as a result of this, the way in which new editors are roundly chewed up and spit out. In my view the biting goes further than is justified, which I say largely because there are very significant problems in these articles, and as such I think the energy spent fighting off new accounts would in many cases be better spent addressing the problems. Unfortunately when I see basically no one take such an approach, it's hard to argue that ArbCom should peel off the more militant long-term users, since very well this could end up just turning the articles over to the SPAs. What's worse, I think some of the more militant long-term editors are also very good editors, and while I suspect there are some bad ones, it is not clear to me how ArbCom could weed them out. An improvement would certainly require something delicate, in which somehow agenda-driven SPAs were kept at bay, and the trained scientists were made to be more judicious in their interactions. Good luck! Mackan79 (talk) 08:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Guettarda

On one hand, I don't see how a few RFCs on content issues scattered across, different articles involving different editors constituted "prior attempts at dispute resolution". A thoughtful editor can learn from a user conduct RFC, but not from an RFC on a page s/he isn't actively following.

There are real issues here. Tedders' protection of an article he was editing and Prodego's editing through page protection are the sort of thing that isn't helpful on pages when tempers are frayed. But the real issue revolves around the Climate Research Unit emails. It has produced a stream of people determined to "fix" Misplaced Pages's "liberal bias". Solomon's attack on William M. Connolley only exacerbated the problem. Not on one article, but across a slew of them. The underlying BLP issues also create problems - the involved scientists have been accused of "criminal" behaviour and professional misconduct, often by bloggers. Dealing with people determined to add material like that to articles only makes matters worse, especially when you get called "disingenuous" for suggesting that the BLP policy applies to pages other than actual biographies.

I would be happy to see a solution that facilitated editing. But what solution? 1RR restrictions don't stop edit warring when there are a dozen editors on each "side". Restrictions along the lines of the Obama article probation might help (if people are willing to police the articles), but quite frankly the arbcomm is too slow and do much good here, and tends to be too much of a blunt instrument. Two months into the future we're probably wondering what all the fuss was about.

Oh, and by the way - I'm not sure what sort of a time frame Tedder is using to pick the "top" editors, but whatever it is, it's far too broad if it includes an editor who hasn't edited (at least not under than user name) since May of 2008.

Statement by JzG

This looks as if a blunderbuss is being fired at the problem. Too many parties, and the case stated in terms which are too general. Has anybody tried using the existing tools in the bag, like article parole and 1RR? Guy (Help!) 10:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by {Party N+1}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/3)

  • Comment: There are far too many parties, from what I can see. Could Tedder please (a) sort them out by whether they're included for administrator actions or editorial actions and (b) perhaps remove as parties anyone who has made fewer than 30 edits total in the last 3 months on the articles/talk pages involved, if they are not being included with respect to administrator actions? Thanks. Awaiting additional statements/comments. Risker (talk) 04:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Awaiting further statements and in general agreement with Risker's suggestions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Leaning towards accepting when I become active, but I'd like to see a pared down list of parties in this case to only the core members involved, and further party statements. Like to see where people think we should be looking at (whole area, specific editors conduct, etcetera) SirFozzie (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)