Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Georgia guy (talk | contribs) at 01:31, 5 January 2006 (→See proposed move discussion at []: 2 things to try). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Older discussion (through September 5, 2005) archived at Talk:Washington, D.C./Archive 1

An event mentioned in this article is an August 24 selected anniversary.

Image:Pentagonfireball.jpg

I have removed Image:Pentagonfireball.jpg (Security camera image of the moment after American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon), as I think the article can do without it for the following reasons.

• The Pentagon is located in Arlington, Virginia and not in Washington.
• We can find a more appropriate image that depicts the security implications on people in Washington, such as the closing of Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House (done in response to the Oklahoma City bombing and not the September 11, 2001 attacks).

Recent history

I also think that too much space is devoted to recent history (2001 - present), in relation to history prior to 2001.

A word count shows:

• 1249 total words in the history section
• 674 words (53%) of the history section about recent history (2001 - present)

As time permits, I will do what I can to improve the balance for the various historical time periods in this article, as well as add some image that better reflects the impact of security measures on people in Washington.

--Kmf164 00:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

District of Columbia article?

Considering the amount of popular press, legal press, and American constitutional scrutiny that the District of Columbia as an adminstrative entity receives, I'm rather suprised that there is not a separate article on it rather than merely a redirect to this article. Has this been discussed to resolution previously, or is it merely a matter of not finding the right mix of authors to make the suggested article work? Thanks for the input. Courtland 14:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

At the current time, Washington, D.C. and District of Columbia are, more or less, the same thing. Somethings that should be gone over include the fact that the Distict used to comprise two counties (Washington County and Alexandria County), that there used to be two cities in the District (Washington and Georgetown, Georgetown being incorporated by the Maryland General Assembly prior to ceding), and the fact the government is known as the District of Columbia, and Washington, as a name, only continues through colloquial use. -James Howard (talk/web) 14:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Would we consider the city of Washington still in (and conterminous with) Washington County, D.C.? The county is listed as (none), yet the entry for Boston lists its county as Suffolk County, Massachusetts even though counties in Massachusetts have been basically abolished. I'll admit that it's much easier to find Suffolk County on a map, but it doesn't seem that lack of a discrete government is enough to say a county doesn't exist. - Afiler 04:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no Washington County, DC really - Washington County, Washington City, and Georgetown, DC were basically merged in 1871 and 1895 to form Washington, DC. The Washington County, D.C. article has some more on this. If anything, it's moot, as there is no county government of any kind. Awiseman 21:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Category structure

What the hell? Why is it all screwed up and separated into Category:Washington, D.C. and Category:District of Columbia? This is a complete and utter mess. The division as to which goes where is really arbitrary, and there is no justification for a separate treatment that is just going to leave people really confused. These parent categories and all of their subcategories need to be merged; I don't really care in which direction, though it should follow the article title, and District of Columbia just redirects to Washington, D.C..

I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, we had this debate already and I lost. --D Monack 04:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe it's time to have that debate again. It looked like a pretty close "no consensus," and it really is a problem for people trying to find Washington-related articles. —Cleared as filed. 05:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I also agree. On Misplaced Pages Commons, it's also Category:Washington, D.C. Let's be consistent. --Kmf164 05:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The categories are only confusing to people who think the city is the District. Are you confused between New York City, New York County, and New York? (SEWilco 05:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC))

That (equating city and district) was the crux of my question in the thread above ... apparently the current working guideline is that the city is the district and vice versa (merely relating what lies above — don't shoot the messenger, please) Courtland 05:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The city is the District. Why else does District of Columbia redirect to Washington, D.C.? They are one and the same. Contrast with the New York example, where lots of other cities/towns/etc. exist within the County and the State. Not so in D.C. —Cleared as filed. 06:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It pains me to remind you that Misplaced Pages is meant to reflect reality and not create it; thus "why else does X redirect to Y" doesn't help much in this instance. Courtland 06:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Heh, well thanks for being condescending. Sorry to cause you pain. My point is that the two are the same, and that is why the redirect exists. There doesn't seem to be any debate about the redirect, and we should make the categories consistent. —Cleared as filed. 06:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages categories are meant to reflect Misplaced Pages articles, so the redirection of one title to another does help decide whether there should be one category structure or two, or what the name of that single category structure should be. Postdlf 06:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Life would be pretty hard for me if I was confused by that distinction between NY state, county, and city, considering how I live in Manhattan. But regardless, that's not a good analogy. Having separate categories for Washington, D.C. and the District of Columbia are instead the equivalent of keeping separate categories for Manhattan and New York County. There's a definitional difference, but not a concrete one, and the fact that District of Columbia merely redirects here means that editors on this topic have already determined that it should be treated as one subject. Creating a duplicative category structure ignores that well-founded decision.

For that matter, the CfD was clear on one thing—the separate category structures should not exist. There was simply no consensus as to which direction to merge, not whether to merge. The default should be to follow the article title, as the category structure is but an extension of the topic this article defines. If this article should be named otherwise, then let's discuss that here. And, if District of Columbia is to be split off from Washington, D.C., that should also be discussed here, and the category system should then correspond to the division of content between the articles. Postdlf 06:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Please note that I have listed these duplicative categories for merging, based on the rationale that I have expressed above. Postdlf 21:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Private Schools

The section of private schools is really lacking; its very incomplete, and should link to a seperate article about private DC high schools. I can add a lot to it - anyone agree? Tkessler 21:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Go for it, I went to one (obvious which, check my recent edit) and they need more love. --Golbez 22:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree. I'm not quite sure what you're thinking, but I think the topic of education can be greatly expanded into a separate article.

I don't know all the details or not yet sure how exactly to explain it, but there is a long history and controversy regarding education in DC. The quality (or at least perception) of DC public schools has been considered poor — particularly in the 1990s when the Control Board and Congress intervened and school facilities were shuttered due to fire code violations. The quality of DC schools contrasts particularly with the surrounding jurisdictions — Montgomery, Arlington, and Fairfax Counties — which are regarded as among the very best public school systems in the country. (Though Banneker is #46 in Newsweek's list of top high schools and Wilson is #318.)

The rather poor quality of DC public schools deters many middle-class families from living in DC, in favor of the suburban counties. Other families send their children to private school, if they can afford it. School vouchers and charter schools are yet more issues relating to education in DC. --Kmf164 22:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Map showing proximity to VA and MD

This article (and Geography of Washington, D.C. strongly needs a map showing the states of Virginia and Maryland, and where Washington, D.C. is situated between those two states. Without it, the context of where it's located is unclear to readers (even to many Americans) who would like to know exactly where it is located. The map of the entire U.S. makes the area too small, and the map of D.C. itself doesn't have the context of the neighboring states. Would anyone able to do make such a map? I don't have the graphics skills. Badagnani 23:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Might want to try this map Image:DC locator map.jpg. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The map should somehow include both the national and regional map, with one an inset of the other. I'll work to come up with something that provides both levels of context. --Kmf164 14:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been working on a replacement for the quadrant map that doesn't just have the District surrounded by white space...I will upload it soon. Postdlf 18:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of replacing the quadrant map, but agree that it definitely needs improvement. Thanks for working on that. I'll continue working on some locator map that combines the national and regional-scales. I might provide a few versions and seek feedback. Also, I will soon be able to supply some maps for Misplaced Pages for other DC-related topics and articles (transportation, demographics, landmarks, neighborhoods, etc.). For other (non-Misplaced Pages) uses, I have been compiling GIS data for Washington, D.C. and surrounding jurisdictions. Let me know if there's anything in particular that you think is needed. --Kmf164 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Great, thanks; if it can show the whole states (or at least a large portion of them), that would be the best, so that D.C.'s location vis-a-vis those states would be clear. This might necessitate a separate map, though, like the one described above: Image:DC locator map.jpg. Badagnani 21:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Washington, District of Columbia

Kmf164: Okay, here I am. Yes, I know that it is technically not a state, but I think the argument I made in my summary still stands: For every state in the union, as well as ever country article I have seen, above the box, it has the full name, in it's entirety. Puerto Rico isn't a state, but it has Commonwealth of Puerto Rico above the box. Same with Guam. I see this as only following suit, keeping everything the same way. Search4LancerFile:Pennsylvania state flag.png 00:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll allow others to weigh in here. Though, "Washington, District of Columbia" sounds very strange to me. "Commonwealth of Puerto Rico" doesn't, nor does "State of Vermont". The debate about "Washington, D.C." vs. "District of Columbia" has been argued many times. I think it has to be one or the other, but not "Washington, District of Columbia", as nowhere ever is that the official or common name used. --Kmf164 00:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The formal name for Washington, DC is simply the “District of Columbia”, not “Washington, District of Columbia”. (See DC Code § 1-102.)

— DLJessup (talk) 00:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

All this is simply the messiness caused by the coterminous nature of the city and the "district." Two articles would be entirely unnecessary, of course; but short of that no solution can ever be entirely logical. "District of Columbia" is the best title for the box, even if it doesn't agree with the article name, since as others note above "Washington, District of Columbia" is something nobody would ever say or write. Doops | talk 06:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Humm, after some research you're right DLJ, the formal name is District of Columbia, as per official documents on the official website (budget plans). Silly me, but I still say the box should be changed to it's formal name, which has been done already, thank you Doops. Search4LancerFile:Pennsylvania state flag.png 09:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Photos

I just reverted Skyfox11's addition of several photos — not that I don't like his photos, but because of too many photos in the article. I'm now thinking that some of the other photos in the article might not be the best, or in the appropriate sections. For example Image:Washington Monument cherry blossoms.jpg under "Climate" and "People and culture"? And apologies to Raul654, but I don't think Image:Jefferson memorial 1.jpg is the best photo of the Jefferson Memorial (too gloomy), yet alone the best to represent "Landmarks and museums". And why the "Lincoln Memorial" photo in the "Radio" section. Image:Washington DC Capitol11.jpg might be okay under Local government, if the caption mentioned something about Congressional oversight of the D.C. government.

And, no pictures for Education, or Transportation? I've seen many good photos of Washington Metro in Misplaced Pages (look at any of the List_of_Washington_Metro_stations). A good many more photos of Washington, D.C. are on commons. I suggest we review the choice of photos in this article and perhaps replace some with ones that are better quality and help illustrate the text. I don't want this to be a unilateral move, so I'm posing this first for thought and discussion here on talk. —Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 03:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree but also want to especially object to the photo of the Capitol in the section titled "Local government". This is highly misleading. More appropriate would be a shot of the John A. Wilson Building or the Reeves Center or the mayor or almost anything else. --דוד ♣ D Monack 05:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

See proposed move discussion at Talk:Washington

I propose that the Washington State article be moved from Washington to Washington (U.S. state) and that Washington (disambiguation) be moved and redirected to Washington. This would be in line with Lincoln and other similar precedents. Nothing personal against the state - it's a very beautiful place, but having Washington be a disambig would be the best way for readers and linkers to effectively navigate. "Washington" has a lot common of uses - as a person's name (including the first American president), as the name of a university, and of course as the name of Washington, DC. Outside the United States, "Washington" as a place name almost always refers to the U.S. capital. Even within the United states (with the exception of the northwestern U.S.), when someone says they're gonna "go to Washington," it's generally assumed that they mean Washington, D.C. Blackcats 01:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Here are 2 things to try:

1. Check Special:What links here/Washington
2. Do a Google search on Washington and check the first 500 results.

Georgia guy 01:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)