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• WP:GS/CC/RE

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Biosequestration dispute

William M. Connolley

Scjessey

Edit war at Talk:Global warming

I am at this point an uninvolved editor on the subject, but at Talk:Global warming there is a massive edit war brewing with several editors removing comments by others, simply because they do not agree with them. User:McSly and User:Kenosis have removed several comments several times. I did reaad the comments, but they have been deleted again. Several comments on differant threads have been hacked using WP:Talk and WP:Forum as their justification. I must point out that the users who are removing the comments seem, to me, to not agree with the other editors' viewpoints anyway. Several other editors are involved in this case and I did warn that I would report the problem here if the deletions did not stop. So here we are.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't vouch for every removal, but talk:global warming has a chronic history of inappropriate content. As the article is under probation perhaps this issue, if it is an issue, should be discussed at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement. --TS 21:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but since we seem to be hitting several 3RR problems, it may be more sticky than all that.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello, here is the comment I removed . It seemed to me to be pretty obviously against the talk pages discussion policies and that's why I removed it. Was I wrong ?--McSly (talk) 21:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There is, as TS says, a long history of people using the GW talk page as a venue for discussing GW itself, not for discussing improving the article. And of old arguements being constantly repeated. There is a fun wrinkle in all this: most (though not all) of the ill-disciplined chatter is from skeptics, who would like to butcher the page in various ways (yes, I know, you don't agree, you don't have to, I'm just giving my opinion of course). But they can't, because none of the talk page discussions ever come to any conclusion, becasue they always wander off into the weeds. I even wrote a teensy essay about it: User:William M. Connolley/For me/Musing on the state of wiki.

Meanwhile, how about someone semi's the article talk page? That would help a bit.

@JJH: if someone has hit 3RR then there is a trivial solution: block them William M. Connolley (talk) 21:44, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• I've unwatched that page, due to the tone and tenor of some of the users that regularly edit there. I have noticed frequently that talkpage comments are removed, often -- at least seemingly -- as much because the remover doesn't agree with them as much as anything else. This needs a stop put to it. There's no need to squelch dissent. UnitAnode 21:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You're not listening. No-one is squelching dissent William M. Connolley (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You're one of the reasons I quit trying to improve GW articles. And I distinctly remember you and either Kim or Boris removing talkpage comments several times after I'd asked you not to do so. That's the kind of behavior that chases editors away from the articles. It's a problem, and it needs dealt with. UnitAnode 21:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Dissent is being squelched as it has been for years. Either way, talk page comments are indeed being removed by editors who don't agree with them, outside of policy. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:50, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Some of it is akin to a little kid putting their fingers in their ears and going "La La La La" really loud so they don't have to listen to what is being said.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Many of these removals are reckless. At one point I was informed that there'd been a local agreement that newspapers would no longer be considered RS. I didn't protest this over-turning of policy but I did request to see the special procedures that were in place, My request was deleted. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 21:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Please provide diffs. Guettarda (talk) 22:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

What for? There's no question it's going on. I've even done it myself, though that was an IP and I moved it to their TalkPage to continue the discussion if they had a point to make and it seems they didn't. There is a slight drizzle of trolling and spam, but that's very easy to deal with.

I recently asked what was the point of the article and whether it was meant to be informative, it sure doesn't look as if it answers anyone's questions (I described the tests I've applied, the article failed them all). The section was archived 8 minutes after the last contribution. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 22:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, remember the WP:TRUTH needs no diffs because it is obviously true; actual evidence would be redundant William M. Connolley (talk) 22:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is degenerating already. In a last (and, I know, doomed) attempt to drag us back to reality: people seem too have the idea that any removal of talk page comments is outside of policy. This is wrong. Talk pages are for discussing improvements to the articles. Comments that do not do this may be legitimately removed. "Dissent is being squelched" type comments seem to confuse free-speech in the sense of newspapers with comments on wiki, which is unhelpful. My prediction: this discussion, like so many at the GW talk page, will wander off into the weeds uselessly. Hopefully I'm wrong William M. Connolley (talk) 22:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"This discussion is degenerating already" and "drag us back to reality" could be taken as personal attacks towards good faith editors. The dissent is being squelched comments are also in good faith following WP:NPOV and have nothing to do with notions of "free speech" as they relate to governments. Your take on talk page comments seems to me, to mean that anything not agreeing with your own PoV on the topic is not an improvement to the article and thus can be removed at the slightest hint of clumsiness. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Try collapsing nonsense comments instead of removing them. And people better be informing the editors on their talk page instead of WP:BITEing them and moving on. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:34, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That wasn't nonsense. It was only clumsy and overlong. Ok to hat it, though. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I meant nonsense on the talk page. I collapsed in part for the personal attacks and informed the editor that they need to be discuss things calmly instead of just ranting and raving. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It was unencyclopedic and clumsy (likely unknowing) with the PAs but straightforwardly in good faith. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it was nonsense either. This was a reader much like any other, someone who would not be protesting a sensible and worthy article even if they didn't agree with it. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 22:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll just chime in and say I have noticed in the past, not recently, but I haven't looked at the article in question in a while, that the pro-AGW crowd has a tendency to delete others edits, prematurely collapse or archive them, or even edit other people's comments. In fact, one of that group was recently warned by an admin for that sort of behavior (on AN, not GW articles). I suspect that this tactic is usually done against newer editors who are less likely to complain and more likely to get themselves 3rr banned by restoring their own edits. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

As I've said many times, that's how it's done. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm still chuckling over the irritation and consternation expressed by the regulars at the Reliable Sources noticeboard after some of the GW regulars insisted that newspapers can't be used for GW articles. Actually, I'm glad that that happened, because it can be used forever as an example illustrating some of the kinds of behaviors that occur in Misplaced Pages.

Anyway, back to this edit war. I believe that in the past Scibaby socks were prone to leaving trolling and unhelpful messages on the GW talk page and I can understand their removal. The problem is that sometimes the removals get too aggressive and end up being bitey to newbies who may not understand what is going on. If it isn't happening already, I suggest that everytime someone removes a comment, that they also politely explain why on the editor's talk page, even it appears to be a Scibaby sock. Cla68 (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Cla, I can't find the RSN discussion which you find so amusing. Could it be the brief comment at WP:RSN#Proposed rule, which seems to propose giving advocacy groups and newspaper op-eds priority over peer reviewed journals? Seems odd, I'd be grateful for a diff of the comments of which you speak. . . dave souza, talk 23:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Those socks are socks, but aren't always what they seem to be. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

If comment removal is turning out to be too controversial, then, it might be better not to do it anymore. Cla68 (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That's what I'm thinking. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. It's a particularly sharp elbowed tactic when used by long term editors who ought to know better. ++Lar: t/c 03:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I have also reviewed the complained of actions, and find that they do not comply with WP:TALK and indeed violate WP:TPOC; you do not remove other peoples comments unless they violate policies such as NPA, BLP and the like. I also find that arguing a mechanism by which good faith content related comment may not be removed for a certain time period is also a good faith attempt at improving the article - even if it has or is rejected by the community, that fact should be noted and the comment allowed to stand. Now, I have only been reviewing the edits since the above ip started complaining of the removal of their comments but I think that all parties including the ip have exceeded the 1RR restriction for content that is not vandalism. I shall be blocking McSly (talk · contribs), Kenosis (talk · contribs) and 83.203.210.23 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) for 12 hours per the CCP. I would suggest that had comment not been removed under inappropriate reasoning (and WP:TALK is a guideline it should be noted) and simply responded to - or not - then these actions need not have been considered. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that all parties including the ip have exceeded the 1RR restriction for content that is not vandalism - hold on. Which 1RR restriction would that be? William M. Connolley (talk) 23:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. As far as I can tell, neither global warming not talk: global warming is under a 1RR restriction. The phrase is certainly not mentioned on the talk page, and there is no appropriate entry over at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:26, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Um.... that would be the one only I was apparently aware of; my mistake regarding my skimming of the probation page. I acknowledge I am wrong about the specifics, but generally the warning about edit warring - and how 3RR is not an allowance per WP:3RR - indicates that the tolerance for revert wars is lower than most places, and I think my sanctions are in keeping with the purpose of the sanctions. I will correct my rationales at the various editors talkpages. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC) I shall not get involved in a discussion over adopting 1RR on GWP pages, since I hope to remain uninvolved for a little while longer.

Also, according to Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log#Notifications, neither Kenosis nor McSly were notified of the probation, let alone warned. Given that strict interpretation of WP:TPG has been the norm for a while (and overall quite helpful) on talk:global warming, I don't think these blocks are appropriate. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This whole thread/section has a strange lack of specifics, and a lot of claims about generalities. How about focusing on one archiving/removal at a time, and then discuss whether or not (in the context of what has been on t:GW) it was archived/removed correctly. That way it would actually be a learning experience instead of mudslinging, which is getting us nowhere. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to call any of these comments, of whatever stripe, mudslinging. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is what the above comments best can be described with. Notice that mudslinging here isn't a perjorative, it describes a situation where people aren't listening to each other, and instead throw bald assertions at each other. The assertions may be correct, and one side or the other may be in the right, but it isn't moving forward in any way or form. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:43, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Please don't call good faith comments on a talk page mudslinging. This is spot on the fuzzy, overbroad kind of thing that has brought forth these worries to begin with. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

There is indeed a lot of mudslinging on that talk page. Personal attacks are often intended quite sincerely and in the deepest of good faith. This doesn't make personal attacks acceptable. --TS 00:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I was actually referring on the above comments. Stating for instance that "dissent is squelched" but not providing any diff's is a bald assertion that cannot be answered by much other than equal assertions. Talking about archiving/removals without any context of a specific thread/case is equally unproductive. We aren't getting anywhere. I would again try to ask for targetted discussions and specific examples, instead of this (yes i'm going to say it again) mudslinging at each other (and there is no specific target applied here, it is quite generic). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to call good faith comments mudslinging either. What I'm seeing is a pattern of when someone makes a general observation, of asking for specifics, and when specifics are brought, each is dismissed as a special case, exception, or the work of an editor in disrepute. The issue here is that there's a general perception of one side trying to control the discussions (which in turn controls the content of the articles). Work on the perception if you want people not to allege grand cabals. ++Lar: t/c 03:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you kidding me. An anon ip just deleted another editors comments a few minutes ago. Another block please?--Jojhutton (talk) 23:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. It's just one of our resident trolls being a silly sausage. If you block the IP he'll just use another open proxy. --TS 00:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

So semi t:GW. It has been often enough in the past William M. Connolley (talk) 00:15, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Semi'd it to stop anon antics. Vsmith (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony's protocol

As a result of this discussion with LessHeard vanU I suggest we develop a protocol for editors to follow when they encounter off-topic clutter on talk pages covered by the probation. The idea is that we'd make sure that newcomers who just happen to come to, say, talk:global warming and then post a thread about something they read on a blog would not be bitten, but would be politely informed of the reason why their discussion is inappropriate. People (including regulars) who persisted after warnings would be sanctionable here.

Traditionally such off-topic discussions have been archived in situ, but often they are unarchived for various reasons. Perhaps really egregious unarchiving might be seen as sanctionable. I suppose that could be handled on a case-by-case basis.

As LessHeard vanU says, the important thing is to get people behaving themselves because they want to continue contributing.

In any case, I think everybody should read the thread and then come back here and comment on his proposal. --TS 01:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Wonderful idea! As a technical aid, maybe something even simple as a "tag" around the off topic comment and when there are abundant tags among a few eds, then consider the collapse, remove option with consensus. The idea is the tag serves as a simple clean clear warning right in place. It could even link to a more elaborate guideline or policy reminder. (Yes, tag wars would be eminent, but then maybe even that discussion could be put to another place.) Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 02:38, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Found it ... a variation on these Template:Off-topic-inline, Template:Off-topic? for talk pages that would point to WP:TPG. The existing article tags maybe ok to start. Comments? Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Note, I took this proposal for additional comment here. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 03:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

A tag is better than removal. ++Lar: t/c 03:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Template's done. I called it "Template:Inappropriate under talk page guideline", little long, but it's self-explanatory in the wikicode. If you want to adjust the message or update the documentation, feel free, if you don't know how, just post it here and I'll add it in. There are five actions:

1. "remove", comment won't display, but still will be searchable.
2. "collapse" collapsed, floated right, header is grayed out so it would be less intrusive.
3. "tag over", prints "Comment tagged inappropriate under talk page guidelines." followed by an optional reason on top of the comment. Background is 10% transparent so you can still see what's under it.
4. "tag", prints "" followed by an optional reason.
5. "no action", doesn't do anything, except in the wikicode.

Error messages will print if you forget "action" or "comment". "reason" is optional. Examples are in the documentation. ChyranandChloe (talk) 10:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Seems really powerful, I pray for it's appropriate wp:civil purpose and application. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 19:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

well, do as you like, but I will most certainly ignore any such warnings when and where I feel it is warranted. Most of the time I see arguments archived in this way (and when I archive them myself, which I have done) it's a way to end a conversation which is spiraling down the hole; this is a good thing. but too often I see conversations archived as a tendentious way of shutting up editors (I assume as a means of enforcing page ownership) and I never put up with that. just an FYI, because I'm suspicious of this move on this page; I'll be keeping my eye on the applications of this template to make sure that it isn't abused. --Ludwigs2 10:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Grateful though we all must be for making new tags available, I must question why this discussion is going on at "Requests for enforcement".

It is off-topic and should be removed forthwith. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 12:24, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

What LessHeard VanU suggested--and it is well within the WP:TALK guideline too--is that off-topic material should be promptly moved to an archive page and the originator notified that this is not the purpose for which the talk page exists. Accordingly I have removed an off-topic item from talk:global warming , archived it , and notified the originator. I hope we can move towards more orderly use of the talk space. Needless to say, any edit warring over such archiving will probably end badly for all participants. Please raise issues arising from inappropriate archiving or unarchiving on this page. --TS 13:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm very happy with the idea that off-topic material should be removed (archive if you must, who cares, it is all in the history and no-one bothers with the archives). But you should note that this is directly contradicted by LHVU's second rationale for his block of K, which was that *any* removal (other than, one presumes, orderly archiving) of not-clearly-vandalism was blockable. So since people are being randomly blocked for failing to follow non-disclosed rules, I think you need to make the rules very clear. If the rules are "only material deemed archivable by TS or LHVU maybe archived early", then clearly state that William M. Connolley (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Minor sanity

It is good to see that off-topic cruft is finally being removed . This is exactly what we've been asking for for ages, over the screams of "censorship" and "suppression of dissent" from the ignorant. Its also what poor K has got blocked for doing; apparently what is "egregious edit warring" one day becomes highly laudable behaviour the next William M. Connolley (talk) 13:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Mind you, TS had better watch out. According to LHVU's personal rules, which he doesn't seem to worry about enforcing willy-nilly, TS's edit was against policy and presumably a blockable offence William M. Connolley (talk) 13:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that, in common with WP:TPOC, LessHeard VanU draws a distinction between archiving, hiding, collapsing, userfying, etc, and outright removal. See my full description of the archiving in the section immediately above. --TS 13:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I will be much more impressed when the removed/archived/compressed material does not always involve posts that are contrary to TS and Connelley's agenda-pushing, and I take exception to Connelley's claim that people who are willing to listen to evidence against AGW, rather than accept it as holy writ, are "ignorant." 69.165.159.245 (talk) 14:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

To repeat what I said at your talk page:

Your comment was archived because it wasn't about improving the article. The fact that most such disruptive material is added by people who imagine themselves to be climate sceptics does tend to make it look as if one view is being censored, but if you look at the page you will see that climate sceptics are vastly overrepresented in the comments there.

--TS 14:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

WMC your comments are not helpful. Perhaps you're part of the problem rather than the solution? ++Lar: t/c 15:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you look in a mirror William M. Connolley (talk) 16:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

While I appreciate your frustration, I really don't see the need for you to be so acerbic all the time. I very much sympathize with your general position within this topic, but Lar's point is quite legitimate. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

You think the block of K was good? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

My above comment was specifically addressing concerns I have about your recent civility, and was intended as a subtle warning from a sympathetic editor. I have not been involved in this discussion, or the events that preceded it; however, after a cursory review of what went on I would have to say that the block of Kenosis (if that is the one you are referring to) did not seem appropriate to me. I do not see any evidence of fair warning about the probation, although I suppose I could be mistaken (it was a very quick review, after all). -- Scjessey (talk) 17:52, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Right. And how does my civility stack up in the great scales of justice against the person who blocked K, and the person who defended that block on the grounds that K had indulged in "egregious edit warring"? Why are you commenting on my tone, when you ignore these very real offences elsewhere? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Because I noticed it, and I know that you are quite capable of rising above all that sort of thing. Two wrongs... -- Scjessey (talk) 20:53, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, yes, you are right William M. Connolley (talk) 23:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

The damage to Misplaced Pages:

I think people should look at this Google thread to see how many people believe Misplaced Pages has been hijacked by realclimate.org: http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1ACAWCENCA362&q=wikipedia+climate+change+propaganda&btnG=Google+Search&meta=lr%3D&aq=f&oq=

Oh yes, we're really going to pay attention to the opinions of www.taxpayer.com, Frank Luntz, climategate.com, climatechangefraud.com and a whole pile of other fools William M. Connolley (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If any of the above are quoted in reliable, third party sources then "Yes". If not, "No". There is no suspension of proper Misplaced Pages practice regarding WP:RS, along with all the other relevant policies (including WP:NPA). LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:15, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Our anon is not proposing any changes to any articles, so WP:RS is irrelevant. The anon is proposing that we modify our discussion based on what other people think of us. Since the sources that the anons link throws up are all obviously unusable, the anons point fails on its own terms, let alone any others William M. Connolley (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

There's already a wiki that caters to the likes of those people. Perhaps they should be directed towards Conservapedia? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

(resp to WMC) If that is what the anon is going on about, then fine - we answered them; we stay with the consensus now existing. We can say that without evidencing our opinions upon the validity of the sources provided by the anon. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

ChyranandChloe's protocol

WP:TPG encourages "Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling and vandalism." Now, if WMC or MalcolmMcDonald posted a rant like this, we'd take him right up to ANI. Newcomers are naive. Tony said we should develop a protocol, a way of dealing with newcomers without biting them. I think this is just saving the remove until they're informed and warned. Because to remove a comment without, they're likely to conclude, however unjust, that this is censorship.

This is for individual comments:

1. Ask. tag over their comment, and ask them on their user talk to be more constructive.
2. Admonish. collapse their comment, warn them on their user talk.
3. Abolish. If they duplicate a post, it's vandalism, repeating characters, revert. If it's something new, but still trolling or a PA, collapse and ignore. If edit war, block.

This is for threads:

1. Ask. State that the thread is unconstructive and ask the proposer to discuss an edit to the article.
2. Admonish. Tag the thread as unconstructive and warn the proposer on user talk to discuss an edit to the article.
3. Abolish. Archive, collapse, or remove as we've done before. If it's disputed, take it to WP:AN or here, article talk is not for meta-discussion.

TPG encourages remove, but some of you guys don't like that, especially when we get a round in circles discussion. LessHeard said remove should only be used on "NPA, BLP, and the like." I think this can be agreed upon. Roung in circles? I think this is where the discussion would be. What do you guys think? ChyranandChloe (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, removing should be a later stage option (for disruption) and tagging an earlier one. We must consider this too Misplaced Pages:Refactoring talk pages ... what is important for civility is maintaining good faith and remember some infractions can be easily corrected and the Template can be removed. (Like when PA can be redacted or when the offender self-removes the distraction by being made aware.) In addition, what I notice about the tool, is that it seems simple to extend the initial tag to a whole thread by moving the close code, when things get really out of control. Appreciate your work. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

well, I'd prefer if there was some option to partially refactor and refocus. My concern here (well-justified by what I've seen) is that some thread will have a potentially useful core idea that gets hijacked by a lot of cross-talk, and then the entire thread gets archived, leaving the person who started the thread feeling abused. ham-handed removals like that do more to promote conspiratorial talk than just about anything I can think of. --Ludwigs2 22:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Zulupapa, you got to realize that most threads don't start with good faith, especially when it begins along the lines "IPCC fun and games" or a commentary about how the editors are jokes. Discussion is a covenant often broken before we begin, and there isn't much we can do. This is why the first step is ask, people don't like being told what to do, and it is inherently their decision. Ask them in order to remind good faith.

Ludwigs2, hijacked? Yes, I know what you mean. Too often. But refactoring isn't a silver bullet, use for "personal attacks, trolling and vandalism" under WP:TPG. Round in circles I don't think will be solved by tag your it, or a collapse-a-ton. I often want to blame the person's bad writing, or some people for raising PoV (all the time) and filling our heads with straw on some Amazon, rain-forest, or flames. I told the person that he was siding, that it was unwise tie up his comments like that, and most importantly to restart the thread with a clearer proposal. I think the person blew me off. When a thread gets off-topic and I care about it, I being my comment "My central point is... address this point." And if they fail to do so, I keep my comment short and say "You are not addressing my central point." When the person can put your central argument in their own words, that's when you know they're listening, and you're in an actual discussion. I don't know if I've answered your question on this one Ludwigs2, I'm sorry, feel free to blow it off and ask again. ChyranandChloe (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Response from Kenosis

I'd like to request that this thread be kept open for a week. I've received several emails encouraging me to reconsider my response to the block by LVHU. LVHU's block might have been hasty--perhaps erroneous-- but so was my response to it. As it happens, I've gone four years and 20,000-plus edits--many in controversial topic areas--with a clean block log, something I happen to value a lot. Unfortunately I'm quite busy at present and will need to wait until I'm finished with the pile of RL work that's currently on my plate.
..... As soon as I have several hours to get back to this, I'd like an opportunity to present a perspective that might possibly be useful to the ongoing discussion about WP procedures for the more out-of-control pages including heavy-traffic talk pages on controversial topics such as GW. It would also be appreciated to allow me a brief opportunity to comment on my own actions prior to the "1RR" block, the speculative way they were characterized above (e.g. as having removed or userfied comments "simply because they do not agree with them"), and about a couple procedural issues relating to a block-without-prior-notice under terms that were not part of the terms of the climate-change article probation. I expect to have an opportunity to spend adequate time on this later this week... Kenosis (talk) 17:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rajendra K. Pachauri

• Talk:Rajendra K. Pachauri (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs)

The article in question is protected due to BLP concerns, but a feeding frenzy continues on talk. I would appreciate it if uninvolved admins would take a look at the talk page and ensure that the BLP is being complied with fully. --TS 16:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything terrible - some people are attempting to conflate the head of an organisation for the body, and that is being resisted. The claims that a mistake was made by the group are acknowledged, and so claims that the individual is responsible for the mistake is a simple case of misunderstanding. Of possible concern is that there what may be an attempt to have the acknowledged mistake noted in more articles than those properly relevant, but it isn't one that has been advanced on the talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley refactoring and interjecting his comments in those of others and engaging in antagonistic attacks on fellow editors

. Even after another editor objects to his interjecting his comments within those of another editor, continues to revert to his version. He also tells the other editor "How many times are you going to get this wrong?" and to "stop whinging" in user talk page discussion.

I also think the attack page he keeps in his talk space needs addressing.

Given his COI on climate change issues and his past involvements with RealClimate I think a topic ban would be a good solution at this point to stop the disruption he continues to cause. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:45, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

His edit comments also leave a great deal to be desired --mark nutley (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

We're you blocked for this kind of harassment just recently? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley, your comments and edit summaries both here and elsewhere leave something to be desired in terms of civility. Please refrain from disparaging, or even veiled remarks - it is not constructive in such controversial areas. Prodego 20:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Think it should be dismissed, not even formatted correctly, and only one diff? And depending on others to argue the case for you? Don't assume accusations are self-evident. This feels like it's here only to attract attention. If you're going to go through with this ChildofMidnight, could you please take it more seriously? ChyranandChloe (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

What like this you mean C&C damn near deleted half my post there. mark nutley (talk) 20:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

He didn't delete anything there. What are you talking about? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me? He didn't delete anything in that diff, except for excess linebreaks. Are you giving a wrong diff? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Right diff, wrong interpretation. Apparently Marknutley can't read diffs. Sigh. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry chris :) and yes i do still have issues with diffs :) Actually what i meant was WMC`s edit comment weird also gratuitously refactor MN's errors And the fact that he messed up my post when he stuck his text in along with mine. I should have been clearer :) --mark nutley (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Mark, "messing up with text" here is removing excess linebreaks from your comment, it didn't change anything . And when "he stuck his text in along with mine" he was replying to your comment, with the correct indentation, so that it was clear what he was replying to. This is not unusual when replying to long comments, or comments with more than one argument. On the other hand, you did delete WMC's comment . --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Not to worry, I've noticed that certain arbitrator(s) seem to be unable to read diffs as well, so you're hardly alone... -- ChrisO (talk) 20:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

MN, you're still a noob in some ways. You've only just realised that bare url's don't take double brackets, because I finally got bored of your repeated errors and told you: User_talk:Marknutley#.5B.5B_and_.5B. Your edit to that talk page was broken: by failing to remove the line breaks you messed up the indentation of your quote. I fixed it for you. There is no need to thank me William M. Connolley (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

WMC, address your issues, this isn't about the complainer. Suggest you consider as a guide. Your edit summaries and comments could be less antagonistic. Not everyone is entertained by them. It's due for a block time if not a serious warning. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 20:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

WMC could perhaps be less adversarial in his comments and edit summaries, but I suggest that you and others should also refrain from harassing him. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

That is good advice for everyone, but I think as this process continues, people who haven't stepped up their game on the civility front are going to find that they are the tall poppies remaining after the more egregious issues are resolved. WMC really needs to take a hint here, there are few taller poppies remaining I think, if any... ++Lar: t/c 20:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If this is to be a report, it needs to be refactored into standard form, no? Else perhaps moved to the talk page? ++Lar: t/c 20:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Please don't move it to the talk page. Just close this as resolved, requiring no action; it was a badly formatted request for a non-issue. The talk page has had enough use already as a forum for lobbing kitchen sinks at William Connolley; it's not a dumping ground for general complaining about one's (perceived) opponents and shouldn't be used as such. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:49, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If we're talking about civility, I want TS's description of Kenosis as an "egregious edit warrior" discussed. Does no-one else find that somewhat incivil? I've raised this with TS; it just bounced off.

Also, I've redacted a PA from CoM's initial statement - it may look like trivia to you but CoM is well aware of what he is doing William M. Connolley (talk) 20:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Connolly is obviously not taking this seriously. Instead of apologizing for his abusive behavior and incivility he continues to refactor comments. I do not appreciate having my notice to him about this discussion refactored to indicate I made a personal attack. His claims that I am harassing him are also totally specious. I am required to notify him when his abusive behavior is being discussed and if I hadn't done so he would be complaining about that. Misrepresenting other people's comments is WP:Civility violation. We can't allow incivility to continue, he's been causing disruption and pushing his POV for far too long. His COI with Lawrence Solomon who he posts about on his blog and is in a personal feud with and his past involvements with RealClimate also makes his involvement in editing climate articles improper. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Now that just sounds like a rant. Look, if you want to be taken seriously, reactor this thread correctly as prescribed by the template in the lead and provide the diffs to justify COI and POV. Anything less, and I think you've given him permission to blow you off. ChyranandChloe (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It is hard to take seriously a complaint at least partly about incivility that itself contains deliberate incivility. Yor claim of "abusive behaviour" based on that one diff is indeed not credible. I've redacted yet another PA from you - please learn William M. Connolley (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

CoM, your "COI" claim was discussed at length on the COI noticeboard and rejected. You don't get a second bite at this cherry. Please drop this and move on. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Or ... close this and restart with many diffs. COI can be brought up again when things change. 22:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

No. I said above "refrain from harassing him". I think you will find that ignoring that advice would not be a good idea. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: there is some discussion of this matter on CoM's talk page. However what remains there as of this moment is partial, because CoM has been deleting my comments with a rather deceptive edit summary . Which is a bit ironic, given that CoM is complaining about refactoring William M. Connolley (talk) 23:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I removed your comments from my page after you removed mine from yours. Please try to be less hypocritical and disingenuous in making false accusations about behaviors you engage in enthusiastically. Also, if I am required to refer to your per your preferences then I ask you to obey my parallel request. Do not refer to me as anything other than ChildofMidnight. If you are unable to do so then I certainly don't feel it necessary to abide by your whims of the same nature. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Several diffs of his abusive behavior have already been provided. Among them: Diffs , and . I know he has friends and allies, but this report should not be disrupted with mirespresentations about what is a clear pattern of abusive behavior, incivility, refactoring, remocing of comments, and making false allegations. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

This problem has been goin on for a long time. I think the diffs showing abusive refactoring, referring to other editors as incompetents needing spoon feeding, misreperesnting the comments of others, the making of false allegations are enough to warrant action, but here are some more examples per repeated requests for more evidence of William's abusive behavior.

• Here's one of his abusive talk pages titled "whinging" Please note that if this is allowed I'm going to start a page on WMC with a diff noting that this kind of attack page was endorsed per this discussion. I don't want to be maligned in his talk space space and view this type of abuse as a clear example of his harassment and disruptive attempts to intimidate other editors.
• You are dense. Nevermind, I'm sure you'll get there in the end William M. Connolley (talk) 19:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
• "He is clearly to busy to review the actual terms of the article probation; he is clearly to proud to undo his errors; please DO NOT invite him back in again, we do not need his elephant-like blundering in this situation William M. Connolley (talk) 10:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)" (Sorry about the grammatical errors, but I don't want to refactor someone else's quote.
• Irrelevant digression to call someone a noob. Per William's declaration that calling someone named William, Will is a personal attack, this must be taken as the worst sort of slander!
• Another attack page titled "curse of the gnome"
• And here's one of the many instances where he dishonestly refactors my comments to make it look like I made personal attack . If he's allowed to do that then I expect I will be allowed to do the same to him when he doesn't use another editors full name.
• Here's an example where he uses his blog to engage in a personal feud with Lawrence Solomon . Clearly this COI involvement in a dispute of this type should prevent him from editing related article subjects since his involvement is not neutral. The same issues are involved with his editing of climategate subjects because he was a named party in the RealClimate advocacy website where he had a biography page included (it might still be there, I haven't looked). Misplaced Pages should not be used as an extension of his personal and professional interests in advocating a certain point of view. I certainly hope this is obvious to the vast majority of editors here. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
• And another example where he discusses a climate scientist he disagrees with under the cateogry "general stupidity" You'll not that he does not use the individual's full name, let alone his title, once again demonstrating a level of hypocrisy that is fairly awesome. His edits to that article include edit warring to include a photo that he says on his blog "makes Lord M look like a bit of a wacko". ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You are aware that the off-wiki links are a complete waste of time? WP:CIV applies on Misplaced Pages. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Off2riorob

Since civility is a Big Thing, could someone have a quiet word with O2RR about this , please? William M. Connolley (talk) 23:41, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I assume that's supposed to be 'sceptic'. to you actually have a habit of calling people that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludwigs2 (talk • contribs)

This thread was improperly closed by Prodego who repeatedly asked me for more evidence of William Connolley's COI, incivility, and refactoring. After I spent time gathering diffs he has now collapsed the discussion hiding them. In response to Stephan Schulz's comment about off-wiki links, I'm sure he's aware that COI by definition applies to conflicts of interest that involve off-wiki interests. This discussion needs to be reopened so we can establish whether editors with clear conflicts of interest who have been involved with advocacy groups and run a blog disparaging article subjects are allowed to extend their efforts to POV pushing on Misplaced Pages. The incivility, refactoring, and misrepresentations also need to be addressed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this has been improperly closed. I see no admin consensus for either conclusion; furthermore, O2RR's incivility has become mixed into this and needs to be considered. I request that this be re-opened and properly closed William M. Connolley (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

With no-one commenting, I've undone the close William M. Connolley (talk) 15:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• You linked to only a bit of the section, here it is all...

name calling

As William M. Connolley repeatedly uses the derogatory expression of septic to refer to people with opposing views to his would it be OK to refer to him as a climate whiner ? (Off2riorob)

Neither would be ok. (Prodego)

Thats what I thought. (Off2riorob)

My question and comment to Prodego was not uncivil at all, it was a question that was meant to point out how repeated long term name calling by WMC of the people with opposing views is wrong and needs to be stopped, he repeatedly calls people septic this is not a nice way to repeatedly refer to other editors at all, especially editors you are in content disputes with, I was pointing out to Prodego how poor it was that WMC repeatedly does this is and that someone doing a similar name calling to him would not be ok and WMC accusing me of incivility for this is ridiculous in the extreme. My comment was made to Prodego in his capacity as Administrator on his talkpage at a time when he was dealing with WMC's incivility issues in his administrator capacity. Off2riorob (talk) 17:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Around the same time as this, an editor asked WMC a question regarding the same issue...I don`t know if that`s an insult or praise :), might i ask you though WMC is it an error when you write septic`s instead of sceptic? Given one is oozing pus and the other is about questioning things? --mark nutley ....well.., clearly it isn't praise, is it. Off2riorob (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

In fact, the only reason WMC is bringing this up is as a smoke screen in an attempt to distract from the real issue here, which is his long term general incivility in discussion and in edit summaries at multiple climate change articles. Off2riorob (talk) 17:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, "septic" is an intentional smear, see this ATren (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning William M. Connolley

User requesting enforcement

TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Connolley refers to skeptics as "septics," while I was initially suspicious about this given his past behavior I assumed good faith and said nothing about this apparent typo. However, he later linked his own blog from his talk page where he brags about denigrating skeptics in this manner saying that it describes their manner of debate quite well - implying, since "septic" has to do with sewage, that they are essentially shit.
2. Connolley controversially and against consensus removes a section that has been in the article for quite some time. He describes it as "boring" and not "sexy" enough in the edit summary. Note, he removes this and adds in the glacier criticism after I point out that his and KDP's refusal to allow the glacier criticism into the article is inconsistent - they were saying it can't go in since it refers to a specific report, but the article already contained at least two criticisms that were report specific.
3. This is his first reversion - re-deleting a section that has been in the article since February of 2005 in what honestly comes off as some sort of "revenge" edit for having to concede the inclusion of the glacier information.
4. Connolley breaks the 1rr rule for the IPCC article, while a skeptic would've been immediately banned for such an infraction, Connolley's edit stands for 3 hours without any admin action. Only when a skeptic asks him to self-revert does he do it.
5. Connolley essentially tells another poster that he is foolish - again, by linking to his blog where he explains that "no light can help the foolish see better."
6. Connolley's "spoon feeding for the hard of understanding" where he explains that when reliable sources are "wrong" we shouldn't include them. The problem (besides civility) is that "wrong" is a judgement call - wikipedia works on verifiability, not truth (Misplaced Pages:Verifiability), and despite being a wikipedia editor for many years, he is arguing against core wikipedia policy. In fact, when Connolley was explaining how the newspapers were wrong and he was right, he claimed the IPCC had not broken its policies, but Connolley "proved" they had not by pointing to small section of their rules and said the rule wasn't there. He used this same argument when he first shot down the glacier segment(this diff is only a small part of the argument to confirm what I've said). Unfortunately for him, wikipedia policy was proven to be the correct way to go, the newspapers were proven correct, and Connolley was proven incorrect when the IPCC itself admitted they didn't follow their rules properly.
7. Connolley putting in a picture of a prominent climate skeptic. WMC says on his blog that, "The problem, of course, is that the picture makes Lord M look like a bit of a wacko." But that apparently doesn't stop him and his friends from attempting to insert it.

Connolley edit wars with a global warming skeptic on the article about that same climate skeptic - he ends up banning him .

Connolly edits a climate skeptic's article to make it look like he believes in martians - an obvious attempt to discredit. When someone attempts to insert that he denied believing this, that it was mere speculation, Connolley's friend removes the reference and that edit also shows the current version, which doesn't even quote Singer, but does an even better job of making him out to be some crazy dude.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Prodego (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

{{{Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)}}}= Indefinite topic ban.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Connolley had a six month topic parole on this very subject and is well aware of wikipedia policy. He continually ignores wikipedia policy when it disagrees with his viewpoint, is constantly uncivil, has a habit of BLP violations against skeptics and most importantly he has had free license to do this.

He has been doing this for years and encouraging the same behavior both through his actions and through demonstrating that the rules don't apply to him. He thinks those that disagree with his worldview are sewage - anyone with a bias like that is incapable of editing this group of articles in compliance with wikipedia policy, and, even more importantly, in the spirit of wikipedia.

If any more evidence is required then feel free to do a wikipedia or google search of his username - or just start here .

Oh, and the reason I included some older diffs towards the end was to demonstrate that this problem is systemic, long-term and incurable. In fact, I honestly think it'd be good for his mental health to quit editing these articles and I really mean that without malice.

Cheers, TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: Oren recently posted to the original research noticeboard about Connolley's behavior in these articles and this seems highly pertinent to this discussion.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning William M. Connolley

Statement by William M. Connolley

• Your reasons are spurious at best (User:Marknutley)
• For the same reason that the Hitler article mentions that he was a dictator and that he was mentally erratic (possibly due to syphillus) - it is the truth, it is verifiable (User:Thegoodlocust)

Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley

Please could you explain specifically how you think any of the above diffs violation probation? --BozMo talk 06:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring, incivility, BLP violations, tendentious editing - the diffs explain it pretty well don't they? Do you think I should take this to another forum considering the other problems involved? TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If the diffs had explained it "pretty well" I would not have asked for further explanation. So, lets try to assume good faith with your list and start at the beginning. Where exactly are you claiming "edit warring", and with which diffs? I have been through the above list twice now and I am struggling to see what accusation, with support, you are making. --BozMo talk 10:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Assume good faith? Why are you saying I'm not? I believe policy states that telling people to assume good faith can be a sign of not showing it oneself. Anyway, look at diffs 2 and 3 - he is removing a section that's been in the article for 5 years, and he did it twice and without consensus. I understand that the pattern is usually "tag team action" so 3rr isn't broken, but no matter how obvious such a pattern is it will always be disputed. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it. WMC says he uses "septic" because he doesn't like the fact that the term 'denialist' lumps them with Holocaust deniers. It's not like you can really expect people to use the misleading branding "skeptic". And it's more than a little misleading to use an arbcomm decision that was later voided by the arbcomm. Guettarda (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

He complains because it won't "catch on" due to that. Refering to someone as "shit" rather than genocidal is hardly an improvement - and doing it on wikipedia, while bragging about it on his talk page is hardly good behavior. Oh, and if nobody minds, can any facebook friends please identify themselves as such when defending him in the future? TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not use Facebook and have no intention to do so in the foreseeable future, if ever. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 08:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, if you disagree with WMC, you should also disclose that. Or, better yet, utterly ignore such a stupid request as "facebook friends please identify themselves". Ravensfire (talk) 13:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Regarding WMC's revert parole that you cite, you of course considered this, did you not? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 07:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

So one of his friends makes an appeal for leniency and arbcom makes a mistake? What of it? He's been shown so much leniency that AGW advocates now accept that the rules don't apply to them. This has to stop. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From Heyitspeter: Even WMC's comments on this page have been very uncivil (e.g., a few highlights, NimbusWeb an "over-enthusiastic noob"..."What are you on, old fruit?"..."@MN:noob"..."If you don't want to be condescended to, I suggest you stop making quite so many mistakes.") I think it would help if he stepped away from the GW articles. The tenor of the discussion surrounding them has suffered as a result of his additions/subtractions. --Heyitspeter (talk) 09:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, isn't this comment by WMC (second of two at this diff), from the same page, a WP:BLP violation? I'm not clear on that, but other warnings I've seen around (e.g.) would suggest it is.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From EngineerFromVega: WMC has been acting as an owner of page IPCC and straight away dismissed my proposal for a change as 'silly games' . If I were him, I'd have taken a comment on a talk page with good faith.EngineerFromVega (talk) 10:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From MalcolmMcDonald: even as people discuss WMCs editing he has just removed 2 more of the key-words ("McIntyre" and "Balling") that readers need to navigate the GW topic and inform themselves. As the number of skeptics peaks post-Copenhagen and Climategate, the sacrosanct section on them (quaintly named "Debate and Skepticism") has lost more than half the names that were there yesterday. We know that "search" is the way to find things, William told us so: Good grief, how much spoon-feeding do you need? - surely it can't be right to remove the means to do so. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 13:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From Scjessey: While it is clear that WMC may have been a bit short on civility a few times (and this was noted and acknowledged in another thread), it is also clear that this is nothing more than gaming and harassment in an attempt to seek the upper hand in content disputes within this topic. It is important that any administrator reviewing this discussion examines the diffs, and not accept the spin that accompanies them. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From ATren: If I recall correctly, this is the third or fourth complaint filed against WMC on this page, all from different editors. This one in particular is both detailed and rationally presented, yet the "WMC is being harassed" meme still persists. How many well-presented and evidence-filled reports do there need to be before people stop blaming the complainant? Here we have evidence of WMC labeling people "septic", clearly a personal attack when one reads his blog entry specifically dealing with that smear. Then we have multiple cases where he's called editors foolish or a waste of time (see also ZuluPapa's evidence on talk, which WMC himself removed (!!)), the 1RR violation listed above, editing against consensus, and removal of talk page comments. And this is all from the probationary period -- I can dig up dozens of diffs from before the probation which demonstrate the same behavior.
Now, earlier on this page, JPat was article banned for an entire month for making two reverts. That was overturned on appeal (though only after extensive explanation and apology by JPat) but it demonstrates the double standard of enforcement of this probation when editors like WMC get away with much worse for much longer. It's time for admins to take a close look at the evidence above, the disruption it causes, and take action once and for all against WMC. I suggest a lengthy topic ban, several months at the very least.
If no action is taken here, then this entire "probation" is meaningless and should be dissolved. ATren (talk) 14:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@ATren, In all honesty the problem is that the complaints, as this one I am afraid, are incoherent, and not rationally presented. People are vaguely unhappy but no one seems capable of putting their finger on anything concrete which is specifically forbidden. What is the headline problem here? Perhaps there is some kind of general conduct complaint which is valid as an aggregation of these complaints none of which is good enough to stand on its own? Otherwise how is saying "septic" instead of "sceptic" or "skeptic" forbidden exactly? I objected to that ages back but couldn't really find a good policy reason to insist on it. AFAIK WMC is allowed to imply that an edit is foolish or that someone is being foolish because that is about the behaviour/action not about the person. He does not appear to make a personal attack. None of the edits quite look like an edit war. And glaring or facing off is apparently not a crime... --BozMo talk 15:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@BozMo: You should consider the fact that not all editors complaining here have a one-to-one link to discuss and post. All complains are indeed coming from different editors and there is a genuine possibility of them being incoherent. Arguing on this basis is somewhat analogues to hiding oneself from the broader truth. EngineerFromVega (talk) 16:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@EFV I was not, I am afraid, talking about incoherence between complaints but that no editor had yet come up with a coherent complaint. This complaint will almost certainly get struck off because it fails to state a problem and demonstrate it. It is too much to expect busy admins to go fishing through all the edits of an individual to see if there is a transgression. Someone needs to pinpoint a problem, explain it and demonstrate it. --BozMo talk 16:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@BozMo: TheGoodLocust has already given detailed description of complaints in the first post. All other editors are presenting supporting arguments, which are bound to be a collection of isolated complaints. If you can kindly point out actual problems with the original post, others will be happy to discuss them. EngineerFromVega (talk) 17:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@EFV AFAICT he has given a list of diffs with his interpretation of them but not even attempted to give "an explanation how these edits violate" probation which we put in bold letters at the top of this page. He needs to pick a violating behaviour (e.g. editwarring, the first on his list) and then produce his evidence of edit warring. If he is not sure how to present this kind of argument he needs to go and find someone to help him. At present this is not a valid request for enforcement. --BozMo talk 17:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

BozMo, for JPat's article ban, there were two diffs presented and little more, and you recommended strong action. Here, TheGoodLocust provides a whole list of diffs, along with discussion as to their relevance to this probation, and you're left wanting for more. OK, here it is specifically: personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith present in most of those diffs. In particular, calling opposing editors "septic" which is basically akin to calling them a piece of shit. The other diffs provide more examples. What more do you need? ATren (talk) 17:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If WMC was calling editors "septic," that would be problematic. However, in the list of diffs presented, I'm hard pressed to find that because the diffs are not clearly presented. If you would like to file a clear request, that would probably be helpful. I would note that I was strongly admonished for my reports earlier lacking substantial evidence by the same admin who restricted Mr. Patterson, so I assume he did more research than just clicking on my two diffs. Of course, since Mr. Patterson, at that time, had edited only two articles (and one of them he had not edited for over three(?) years) it was reasonably easy to follow all of his edits. I assume that the fact that WMC edits lots of articles makes it far more imperitive to file clear reports. Plese do so. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@ATren: He presented a list of complaints, but they were incoherent and more than a little dishonest. His evidence included a sanction from several years ago, that was voided. His evidence included evidence of WMC's decision to not use the (eminently acceptable) term "denialist" (and note, he's not using this for editors) because he thought it was unfair to tar them with associations to Holocaust denial. And so on. How can you defend that sort of nonsense? Guettarda (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

"he is last years (or the year before that's) stale pie. It was never notable, but pushed in by the septics at the time." - (emphasis mine) - this was TGL's first diff. Are you defending WMC calling editors who oppose him "septic", which is another way of saying they're shit? ATren (talk) 18:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Nope. Someone should probably tell him that's incivil, and to stop being incivil. Perhaps even put him on a civility parole for a limited period of time. It's a shame this shotgun complaint was focused on all kinds of things and proposed an irrelevent topic ban. Throwabunchofshitseewhatsticks is not appropriate. Redraft the complaint if you'd like.Hipocrite (talk) 18:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Incivility is a violation of the probation. ATren (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nonsequitor. Hipocrite (talk) 18:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

And if the beholder is you, Hipocrite, "WMC could be more civil." (see below). So why is this not a violation of the civility clause of this probation? ATren (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Uh, it is? We don't topic ban people for one shot of incivility. We tell them to stop being incivil. I'd happily tell WMC this if doing so wouldn't be adding support to the other bullshit in this shotgun complaint. I might even have done it if the complainer had any level of capital with me that I'd be willing to assume my reminder about civility wouldn't be used as ammo to further diminish the scientific accuracy of an encyclopedia. However, since the proposer, and every single one of the people arguing here (except, ironically, me), has merely lined up on their sides, I don't quite feel like giving an inch to be taken for a mile, yet again. Hipocrite (talk) 18:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC) From TenOfAllTrades. I'd be a snappish too, if there were such a concerted, ongoing effort to harrass me and smear my name on- and off-project. Forum-shopping and abuse of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution boards is just not on. I count three threads just on this page aimed at sanctioning WMC, two of which have aleady been closed as unactionable. There's another pair of threads on the talk page (action, deemed unactionable and/or misplaced), with a third section removed in its entirety as being a platform for a personal attack on WMC. There have been a couple of misguided attempts to use WP:COIN (Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 39) which were again unactionable bordering on vexatious. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From Hipocrite WMC could be more civil. Of course, all of the SPA's who have been following him around could stop following him around. Hipocrite (talk) 15:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• I'd strongly recommend that anyone concerned over the ownership issues, incivility, and other problems displayed by WMC and others at the GW-related pages simply disengage. Let it become the echo chamber that many seem to wish it were. Let the embarrassment that it causes the project build, until it reaches the breaking point. Nothing is going to be done here. No one has the stomach to sanction WMC for his behavior. And he's adept enough at what he does, to be able to walk a fine line, in which he maintains a somewhat plausible deniability with regards to the practical effect of his actions. Reporting his behavior here is an utter waste of time. UnitAnode 16:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From Mark Nutley Interesting defence from WMC there. Get people to look else were by posting diffs to anyone but himself. I fail to see how what i wrote has any bearing on this case? --mark nutley (talk) 17:29, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• The evidence that GoodLocust, I and other editors have worked up is more than adequate to demonstrate a clear COI, abusive POV editing, a long pattern of incivility, a BLP violating approach to smearing article subjects, wikilawyering over content, and abuse of editing privileges to keep attack pages in user space in an effort to harass and intimidate good faith contributors. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Then, please, present it and show us what you only claim you can show (so far).--BozMo talk 18:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Numerous diffs have already been supplied. Which examples of William's COI, improper refactoring, wikilawyering over content, abusive POV pushing, incivility, and abuse of userspace for attack pages aren't you seeing? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From ChrisO: I have to say that I, like BozMo, really don't see the gist of this complaint. It comes across as a grab-bag of disputable diffs and some frankly weird assertions (clue for ATren, "septic" does not mean "shit" - get a better dictionary). I've already said that I think WMC could stand to be less adversarial. On the other hand, this complaint looks like a pile-on by editors with a common POV who are seeking to relitigate issues endlessly in an attempt to get WMC topic-banned. It looks to me like a harassment campaign, frankly. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry chris but your wrong there :)

Pronunciation: \ˈsep-tik\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Latin septicus, from Greek sēptikos, from sēpein to putrefy

Date: 1605

1 : of, relating to, or causing putrefaction

2 : relating to, involving, caused by, or affected with sepsis <septic patients>

3 : used for sewage treatment and disposal <a septic system>; also : of or relating to a septic system <septic effluents>

• As the diffs presented occured in the last few days Chris, your argument that your fellow editors are trying to relitigate is demonstrably false. Also, you need to stop making improper insinuations about those who are working in good faith to address William's disruptive behaviors. His incivility, refactoring, attack pages in user space, wikilawyering over content, abusive POV pushing, and COI are all evident in these recent diffs from the last several days that have been presented by several editors, and the problem needs to be addressed. Should editors be allowed to carry out personal feuds with their personal and professional adversaries? Should editors be allowed to use Misplaced Pages to promote their personal POV? Is the continuation of William's long history of personal attacks, including the numerous examples from the last few days, something that should be allowed to continue? Should we allow editors to keep attack pages in their user space where they go after editors they disagree with? Let's stay focused on the core issues here and avoid disrupting discussion with irrelevant insinuations ascribing motives to those trying to deal with this problem. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

"Should editors be allowed to use Misplaced Pages to promote their personal POV?" I dunno, what do you think? Hipocrite (talk) 20:09, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

@ChrisO: Once again, the "WMC is being harassed" meme. Where are the diffs of this supposed harassment from TheGoodLocust? Why aren't they being presented here? ATren (talk) 20:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oh, if you insist - "Honestly, the best thing to do in reponse is to play dirty. They break wikipedia rules all the time and know how to game the system with socks, email lists, and wiki-lawyering. A coordinated attempt to correct the bias on wikipedia is the only way to counter them – they’ve been doing it for years." - TheGoodLocust thegoo t .
• "For example, the blog “real climate” is constantly used by Connolley et all as a “reliable source” to alter articles. And so we have an interesting situation where a (co)author of a blog can quote himself (or people with whom he has input) in order to make his own case on wikipedia. Hell, he can just make up or order any source he needs if he wants to – it is ridiculous." - TheGoodLocust
• "Correct, he finally got booted off his own article and now relegates cleaning duty to two of his biggest lackeys – Stephan Schulz and Kim Dabelstein Petersen. Sorry, but having your friends on facebook constantly editting your article is just as bad but more subtle." - TheGoodLocust
• "Let's test that out Connolley, we can topic ban SPAs for a few months and then see if that calms things down a bit. Besides, I think you'd welcome the break. " - TheGoodLocust

But hey, you know, orchestrating an off-wiki harassment campaign isn't haras... wait, yes it is! Hipocrite (talk) 20:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Okay, I think that counts as wikistalking since I never posted any links to my comments at WUWT, but I encourage anyone to actually look at those links to get the full context on some of them. The situation is obviously frustrating and I thought I could vent at a "safe place" without being harassed for it. However, the one diff you provide for me to wikipedia, the last thing you mention, is blatant misrepresentation which is shown by this diff. However, if you don't mind bringing up links from off-wiki websites I noticed one a few days ago that accused you of being a sock account of another person on this page (also defending Connolley) - mind if we checkuser you to make sure? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Were in the above does TGL actually encourage people to harass WMC? What you have posted is not harassment it is someone speaking in a manner born of frustration mark nutley (talk) 20:47, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Where he says "A coordinated attempt to correct the bias on wikipedia is the only way to counter them," you know, because off-wiki coordination is A+! Hipocrite (talk) 20:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, so we're bringing off-wiki evidence into this? OK, then, I'll start digging for WMC's off-wiki incivility too. Here's a start:

• "the wacko POV-pushers lost... I've been busy with the wacko's on wiki, as you'll see if you visit Talk:Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident."

I'm busy right now, but I'll try to find more tonight. ATren (talk) 20:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that it's ok if the other guy does it? That's an interesting take, I guess. You asked for examples of harassment from TGL. I gave you them, in off (and on) wiki spades. You responded not with a "thanks," but rather with a "Oh yeah? Well, well, well, here's some minor incivility not directed at any individual off wiki by WMC." Do you understand why I think you're fully engaged us vs. them at this point? Have you commented negatively about TGL's offwiki harassment campaign, or onwiki incivility? Have I commented negatively about WMC? And with that, I take my leave. Hipocrite (talk) 20:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite, TGL's evidence is all on-wiki. You brought in off-wiki evidence, to which I responded with similar off-wiki evidence from WMC, but this doesn't change the fact that TGL's evidence is right there for all of us to examine. WMC calls editors "septic", he calls them a waste of time, he removes talk page comments, he edits aggressively and condescendingly on both articles and talk. It's all there, regardless of who reported it. Would you prefer if I took the same diffs and start a new report? Would that disarm the "harassment" charge? ATren (talk) 20:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

<outdent> My "offwiki harrassment campaign?" You posted comments I made to articles about Connolley's abuse. I comment all the time at WUWT and he has been the subject of a few articles. Hell, he's been in all sorts of publications as examples of wikipedia's problems. For crying out loud how could I have harrassed him when he wasn't anywhere near the conversation? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The "topic parole" is a phrase I've never seen before. What is more relevant (but a full click away) is that the revert parole was revoked as an unnecessary move. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

That's interesting that you never heard of it Schulz since you are the one that appealed for it to be removed from Connolley. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

From Verbal: A stop should be put to this pathetic and continued (unorchestrated but pernicious) campaign of harassment against WMC, by block and sanctions against those responsible. Enough is enough, and those behind this are not only damaging the encyclopaedia by harassing a valuable editor, they are attempting to subvert a whole area of the project to suit a fringe POV. Verbal chat 21:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning William M. Connolley

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