This is an old revision of this page, as edited by EEng (talk | contribs) at 16:52, 5 February 2010 (adding identifying info and template -- this version will Archive #1, with pointers to it from all later versions). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Chronological talk archive

Archive #1

Tone of Voice

It seems to me that this article is not subjective, and is instead trying to present an idea. The article seems to argue that Gage's mind was not severely changed by his injury. While this is all very well, it is not the correct tone for a Misplaced Pages article. The article should be changed not to present an idea, but to merely state the facts. mrscientistman (talk)Mrscientistman —Preceding undated comment added 23:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC).

I changed the text to clarify that the uncertainty regards the extent, nature, and duration of psychological changes, not whether there were any such changes at all. I hope this relieves your concern. (It is recognized that there are a lot of citations still needed.) EEng (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Lebanon clarification

Was Gage originally from Lebanon? The article merely states he wanted to "go home to Lebanon", and does not indicate if this is homesickness or psychosis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.1.162 (talk) 03:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Lebanon, New Hampshire (Gage's hometown) is what was meant. 24.147.70.156 (talk) 18:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

older entries

Removed the following:

As a less positive result, this case also helped lead to the creation of frontal lobotomy, which was a quite controversial psychosurgical measure in use in the early 20th century that has been since superseded.

As it is almost certainly erroneous. Unfortunately the Moniz page on whonamedit.com (see this link) suggests a connection between Gage and the development of psychosurgery where there is very little evidence to support it.

There is a page with a comprehensive analysis of this issue here which again suggests the development of lobotomy / leucotomy procedures by Moniz and Freeman and Watts had little to do with Gage's case.

- Vaughan 21:11, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Very well. I had read that a while ago, but if it is truly disconnected then perhaps it was better to remove it. I won't push this anymore except to say that we should probably mention in the article that a connection between Gage and leucotomy has been suggested by some groups of people, but is not generally accepted. -- EmperorBMA / ブリイアン 06:31, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Good idea. I've added some text to that effect (and the link above). Feel free to make changes if necessary. - Vaughan 09:23, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hanna Damasio and not Antonio as first writter of the investigation mentioned

The person that really investigated about Phineas Gage and made the computer simulation (see picture) that appears in the article mentioned was Hanna Damasio and not his husband Antonio. She is the first writter (and therefore the most important one) while his husband is only one of a group of secondary writters. Even if Antonio is a better known neurologist this is no reason to give him the merit of an article. Antonio himself in his book Descarte´s error says that was his wife the one conducting this investigation.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garrondo (talk • contribs) 12:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Images copyrighted

I suspect that these images are copyrighted as they both come from journal articles: Image 1, Image 2. If you uploaded them, can you provide some copyright information for them, otherwise they are liable to be removed. Vaughan 13:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

• I don't know what image this refers to, but there;s no way a photo from the 19th century is still under copyright!!!!!! The article seems to imply that a 19th century image is under copyright. If you are referring to that, I suggest someone clean up the article by putting the images back. Unsigned comment by User:72.83.87.96 17 Jul 2009

The images referred to were ones removed from the article long ago. EEng (talk) 06:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC) the rest of this post has been moved to the bottom

For the sake of completeness, this discussion is about two images which were uploaded by commons:User_talk:DrFlo1 and deleted at commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Archive/2005/06#Unknown_license_3.

The deleted images are unable to be restored, however the image descriptions say that they are "adapted from Ratiu P, Talos IF, Haker S, Liebermann D, Everett P, J Neurotrauma 2004".

John Vandenberg 06:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

== Image Reversed? ==

It appears the computer-generate image may be reversed, as compared with the image of the damage in Gage's skull.

Death?

Does anyone have any specific details to Gage's death? I've heard he has died of convulsions/seizures but I'm not sure. David 03:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

He died of convulsions (see Macmillan, p.108), though whether these were a late-manifesting result of the original injury is impossible to say. 24.147.70.156 (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Another element of the accident

I don't have a citation for it (because I read it years ago, don't remember where), but regarding his accident, it was noted that the resulting hole was smaller than the diameter of the pipe, and recently it has been suggested that the skullbone suture at the top of his head flexed outward to allow the pipe to pass. I don't know if it's a significant addition to the article or if it would require a citation.--Anchoress 12:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, apparently Ratiu et al ( Ratiu P, Talos IF, Haker S, Lieberman S, Everett P (2004). "The tale of Phineas Gage, digitally remastered". Journal of Neurotrauma 21 (5): pp.637-43.) were the first to notice this. At http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2883334186873702319 is their video simulation of the skull hinging open as the bar passes through, then closing again. This may have been one more factor in Gage's survival, in that it provided room for the brain to move away from the bar as it passed through, making the damage "cleaner" -- in a physical, not sterile sense -- much as Harlow says the 1/4-inch leading point did. (Others more qualified have discussed this I'm sure -- this is just my layman's speculation.) EEng (talk) 14:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Apology for Tycho

I accidentally reverted to the wrong version, and attributed the vandalism to you. Sorry. It should be fixed now. Zuiram 06:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Retain / Regain consciousness

Wasn't it so that he retained consciousness after having it shot trough the head? Nsoltani 15:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

He may not have lost consciousness at all, and if he did, it was only for a few minutes. See Malcolm Macmillan, An Odd Kind of Fame: Stories of Phineas Gage, 2000, p.406 24.147.70.156 (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Double negative??

A recent change from "appears" to "would be unlikely" has reversed the meaning of this sentence: "In light of modern medical science, a bilateral damage of the frontal brain by a projectile measuring 1.25 inches in diameter and weighing thirteen pounds, appears would be unlikely to be incompatible with survival, since this would imply an extensive damage to vital vascular structures, such as the superior sagittal sinus..." Knowing little of modern medical science, could someone who knows more sort out the correct version? .. dave souza, talk 09:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Skip Ransom

I'm not really sure if this is something I could even put on the article, but at this link there is a song by the band Skip Ransom about Phineas Gage.--Spikymann 23:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Uncited References

Specifically, this edit, which was undone by Garrondo. Really, a citation is needed there. Any specific reasons for undoing that edit? This is supposed to be a "good article", you know. I've put it up for Good Article Review. --24.199.103.240 15:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted becouse it will be really hard to find a citation for that since its simply historic common sense; and therefore I didn´t believe it was needed. How can the story of a destroyed life give impulse to a surgical thecnique? On the contrary; maybe if Moniz had heard of Phineas Gage he wouldn´t have been so eager to use his technique. Anyway; if somebody finds a citation for that I would the first to grate him/her.

I have been reading the links on the botton and one of them talked about why Phineas Gage had nothing to do with lobotomy; so I have changed it to citation--Garrondo 16:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Article review

The Good Article review on this article has ended, and in a 3 to 1 discussion, (Or 3 to 0 depending on how you look at it, I counted one for GA status because he/she was trying to discount the reasons for delisting, even though he/she didn't actually seem to come out in favor of GA status) this article has been delisted from WP:GA, (or will be after i'm done making this comment anyway) primarily for various concerns over references. Review archived here: Misplaced Pages:Good article review/Archive 21. Homestarmy 17:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Phineas Gage skull replication

I am the author of the open-access paper below in which we replicated Phineas Gage's skull by printing a virtual reality model in 3D. The model has utility in medical, neuroscience, and biology education.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001119 Kelley DJ, Farhoud M, Meyerand ME, Nelson DL, Ramirez LF, Dempsey RJ, Wolf AJ, Alexander AL, Davidson RJ. Creating Physical 3D Stereolithograph Models of Brain and Skull. PLoS ONE. 2007 Oct 31;2(10):e1119. PMID: 17971879

Please consider including this in the physical remains and legacy section as well as the external references section.

Thank you for your consideration.

Dan Kelley UW-Madison

PS I mistakenly added our citation to the main page and apologize for my lack of protocol. Please adjust my entries accordingly.

Abe2mu 07:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dan, how open is "open". Is the entire article, with all images, video's, etc all covered by the Creative Commons license? If so, we can integrate all of those into this article, and we could even attempt to reproduce the journal article on Wikisource. John Vandenberg (talk) 04:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this the true story?

The Alberta Nelson Biology 30 textbook (from the old curriculum; the new one comes in next year) has a "Case Study" on Phineas Gage. Though the story is quite similar to the one in this article there are some major differences. The textbook says "In, 1948, a thunderous explosion vibrated throughout a Vermont mine. A quarry worker, Phineas Gage, lay on the ground impaled by a tamping iron." This article says "Phineas P. Gage (1823 – May 21, 1860) was a railroad construction foreman who suffered a traumatic brain injury when a tamping iron accidentally passed through his skull..." Which one is correct? It makes no sense that this would be a coincidence; both have the same name, lived in Vermont, and were impaled in the head with a tamping iron. Even the same death mask is shown in the textbook as on the article. On the other hand the dates are out by a century and the job varies (railroad/mine). Maybe the textbook's story was altered for copyright issues? Though, in that case, they might as well make a completely fictional story. I was just curious. Thanks. –bse3 (talk • contribs • count • logs) 03:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It must be a printing error in the textbook. The journal articles from 1848 are really real. see Wikisource:Author:John M. Harlow, M.D., which has the full text of one of the articles, and snippets of the other article. John Vandenberg (talk) 04:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I just thought it was weird and wasn't sure which was correct, but deep down I really trusted Misplaced Pages :) –bse3 (talk • contribs • count • logs) 22:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a typical example of the way in which even serious textbooks, articles, etc. repeat fractured accounts of Gage without verifying the facts. Macmillan has a whole chapter on this, giving many examples. 24.147.70.156 (talk) 22:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm somewhat suprised

that nobody has put forth the seemingly common sense answer that even if my brain were unaffected the never ending pain of having such and injury would make anyone likely irritable and take up cursing as well. Section "3.1 Criticism of popular story" seems like a good place to say something about it (even thought that pat of the article presents the possibility the story is exaggerated or inaccurate) but I haven't the foggiest how to mention something along those lines and still fit an encyclopedic format. The possibility exists that his brain damage may have had little to do with his apparent attitude change, and more to due with trauma pain and a lack of understanding with friends and coworkers. I am painfully (pun intended) aware of how this can happen, having a similar injury of my own. 216.46.209.216 (talk) 06:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, someone has. See Zbigniew Kotowicz, "The strange case of Phineas Gage," History of the Human Sciences, Vol. 20, No. 1, 115-131 (2007). You might find an abstract here: http://hhs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/20/1/115 . 24.147.70.156 (talk) 22:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Substantial revisions

A few weeks back I made a few corrections and revisions, after which I got bolder and bolder, so looking back now I realize that I've changed things a great deal. This is my first time contributing, so please be gentle. I hope I did everything appropriately, though I realize that citations are needed (too tired just now) and that I need an account if I'm going to carry on with this. 24.147.70.156 (talk) 22:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Be sure that if your work was not for better it would have been reverted. This article is an important one for neuropsychology but it has not been edited much in the past months so any contribution would be welcomed. Well done. However as you say citations would be very useful (Access to McMillan book seems a need), and having an account always helps to do things more personal. --Garrondo (talk) 08:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)