Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by James F Kalmar (talk | contribs) at 03:21, 7 February 2010 (→Coren's comment: closing parenthesis). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Arbitrators active on this case

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No good deed goes unpunished

Over on the Misplaced Pages Review, a contributor has noted that Magnus's Save-a-BLP tool has now been re-purposed for nefarious uses. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

On barring a user from RFA

ArbCom has barred users from running at RFA only a handful of times in its history, and some of those instances strike me as dubious. I think we need to have a solid reason to do something apparently so undemocratic, and I do not know what the rationale here might be. RFAs are dramatic in general; that can't be helped.

If the purpose is simply to keep MZMcBride from becoming an administrator, I think that purpose is illegitimate. RFA should make that decision. If we have no faith in RFA, I suppose we're at an existential crisis—we were selected by a similar method.

Therefore, I urge the committee to reject SirFozzie's alternative remedy 1.1. Cool Hand Luke 15:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed - if the community thinks MZMcBride should be an administrator that is their decision to make. To my knowledge, there is no 'sekrit evidenz' or anything of the sort such that ArbCom must protect the community from itself by barring MZMcBride from RFA. –xeno 15:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Cool Hand Luke (talk · contribs) - could you please cite what those instances/cases were when ArbCom has barred users from running at RFA? Cirt (talk) 17:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting the circumstances are comparable to this case, but one precedent is here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

NYB cites one above (which I find dubious), and another dubious one was issued in the Matthew Hoffman case (which is now entirely rescinded). A third example is JoshuaZ—at the time, the restriction on JoshuaZ was done because of private information which was supposed to remain private. I feel this restriction was legitimate, but I'm confident we would now allow him to run again because the private information became public in a very ugly way. Cool Hand Luke 20:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Local en:wiki admin access to the list of unwatched articles doesn't generate a log so there isn't a capability to track if he regained local sysop rights and used that access to repeat this very serious incident. That makes this different from wheel wars, improper deletions, etc.--all of which result in logged actions. Unless the developers implement a new log we can't really address a repeat of this incident by any other means, because unless he discusses it openly again we won't even be able to prove that it's happening. Durova 19:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, Special:UnwatchedPages does not work and was not used in any way in this incident. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The following information is cached, and was last updated 12:13, 4 February 2010.
Discuss this special page at Misplaced Pages talk:Special:UnwatchedPages.
See also: Specialpageslist with editable versions.
There are no results for this report.

^^^ Yep, doesn't work. –xeno 19:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter that it's buggy at present. It is a normal part of local sysop rights and presumably the developers have plans to fix it. Do they also have plans to implement a log of sysop views? Unless they do then this is a necessary preventative. Durova 19:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The matter of MZMcBride being a sysop on the English Misplaced Pages is not an issue with regards to finding unwatched pages. The Toolserver has access to this data. MZMcBride has access to the Toolserver. I agree with Xeno and CHL on this one; the community should be the deciding factor on whether or not McBride should be an admin. As a side note (and I've pointed this out before, elsewhere), the UnwatchedPages page is "broken" more than it "works", the past several years. From what I gather, at least. Killiondude (talk) 19:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that it's always been buggy. Once upon a time, I believed it could be fixed. You'll see that I'm on the soft redirect's talk page. I even asked Jimbo to intervene. It is, and probably will remain, broken. Cool Hand Luke 20:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) We all know that the devs are backlogged. Are they willing to add to that backlog for the sake of tracking actions by one individual whose misuse of local sysop rights needed two prior arbitration cases? Is the local admin community willing to relinquish the expectation of regaining that functionality for anybody? Unless the answer to one of those two questions is yes, there's a dilemma here. Durova 20:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"... misuse of local sysop rights ..." ← Never let facts stand in your way, Durova. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The Sarah Palin protection wheel war and the first MZMcBride arbitration both concluded that MZMcBride had abused local sysop rights. Durova 20:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

MZMcBride and Toolserver

Proposed Finding of Fact #4 ends with the sentance,

On 17 January 2010, the toolserver rules were explicitly changed to prohibit the release of unwatched article data.

As a minor point of clarity, I'd suggest amending it to say,

On 17 January 2010, after the events leading to this arbitration, the toolserver rules were explicitly changed to prohibit the release of unwatched article data.

Just to be clear in the timing of things, that the change occured after MZMcBride's actions and K's breaching experiment. I think it's a small modification, and wouldn't require revoting from the arbitrators. --InkSplotch (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"The meaning here is somewhat ambiguous, and at least one interpretation falls within the realm of what I would consider acceptable comment."

In this edit, Steve Smith suggests that there's a possible interpretation in which the comment in question would be acceptable. I'm having a very difficult time understanding what kind of (reasonable) interpretation justifies this commentary by Durova. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:51, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

By coincidence, I just finished explaining that edit on the arb list. One possible interpretation of Durova's remarks is just that she has an intense desire to refrain from associating with Risker (or being indebted to her, or what have you). I don't think that's inherently a personal attack; it's a comment on a relationship rather than an individual. It's quite possible that the intended meaning was something less acceptable (and there is a distinction between "acceptable" and "justified"), but I'd rather not muddy the waters with this, especially given that I already see enough to support the only Durova-specific remedy proposed. Steve Smith (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Thank you for the explanation. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Fritzpoll re recidivism

It seems a bit silly to say that someone is expected to "avoid" having "poor judgment". To say that someone has poor judgment is precisely to say that they don't have the capability to judge well and therefore can't identify the behaviour to avoid. If you think they can avoid it then it isn't their judgment that you're doubting, 87.254.70.16 (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, one avoids "poor judgment" by thinking of the consequences of one's actions before committing them, longer if necessary. — Coren  03:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

No. You can avoid hasty action by thinking longer. Your judgment is something else entirely. In any event, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that MZMcBride didn't think about his actions before taking them, it seems apparent that he has thought further about them subsequently and it doesn't seem to me that further thought has changed his mind. That's consistent with the normal meaning of poor judgment as in 'doesn't recognise as unwise actions that the speaker feels are unwise' but isn't consistent with your apparent use of the term to mean 'needs to spend longer thinking, after which he will inevitably agree with me'. Actually, he comes across as relatively cerebral; I find it hard to believe that lack of thought is an issue here. 87.254.70.16 (talk) 06:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, mostly. Wikipedians have a tendency to manipulate (or plainly violate) the English language on a regular basis. Oh well. On a semi-related note, I do think there's something to be said about being accountable for your edits and actions, which is why I use a username here. Perhaps you want to consider logging in? --MZMcBride (talk) 01:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

'Formal' request to Toolserver management

First of, this is completely out of your remit, you do not have any official standing (regardless of how overblown you may regard your position), and you'd better not have for everyone's sake, considering events from December that you should remember more often (in which Mike Godwin participated, to be clear), so you cannot make "formal requests". You should really have some sense of perspective. Anyone who can use Special:Random on a category (handy link here) and page histories could have found a dozen of BLPs in 5 minutes certain at 99% to be unwatched by any active user, and go ahead to vandalize them. It's that obvious, really. There's no need for a toolserver access, and I'll take this opportunity to agree with the assessment that the metric of watchers is an essentially useless indicator - the watchlist system is completely outdated and certainly unrepresentative of the level of monitoring an article receives. So, on the proposed 'formal request': do you realize that the information obtained from the Misplaced Pages:Database reports is very close to invaluable for the English Misplaced Pages ? Will you be able to defend your decision in front of the community and demonstrate that the benefits of MZMcBride loosing Toolserver access outweigh those of retaining them ? You should not have the illusion that such a request would be representative of the community, and if you do make your request, I assure you there will be a counter request from the community. So as to be clear, I think MZMcBride's actions and responses were unsatisfying in many ways and concerning to the point of re-evaluating admin access (before it became moot), but it is no excuse for you go beyond your mandate (and play the drama game to a certain extent). I also have some deeper procedural concerns (which are reflected in the events of December fwiw, even though I had been supportive of ArbCom on this occasion): basically, you act both as prosecutors, judge and jury in this kind of cases which are closer to ArbCom vs (User) than anything else. There is no way this can be called arbitration (as opposed to cases like Scientology or Date Unlinking which are good cases of arbitration). The speed at which the case is progressing is certainly revelatory. Well, I'll take this into consideration for the RFC coming soon on ArbCom and more generally Dispute Resolution. Thanks, Cenarium (talk) 06:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a brief point to make here (I'm supposed to be inactive and doing other stuff, but there is an important point that needs making here): when a process becomes invaluable (and I agree that the database reports are invaluable), there should be plans in place to keep it going, rather than declaring any one person to be indispensable. I believe (and MZMcBride should correct me if I am wrong) that part of the reason for setting up the database report was to allow others to work on some of the backlogs, or specific areas, that MZMcBride had identified, and also to allow others to request reports of their own. This need to avoid indispensability is a general principle that applies to many places, and for other reasons quite apart from the reasons why it is an issue here (sudden and unexplained complete absence from Misplaced Pages, due to real-life events, is one such reason, unless processes are completely automated). The questions also arises of accountability. If someone wants to raise a matter with ArbCom, there are many ways to approach them. If someone wants to raise a matter with Toolserver management, who do you approach? And who are ArbCom and the Toolserver management ultimately accountable to? Also, a few specific questions, Cenarium: (1) would you have any problems with an informal approach to Toolserver management? (2) If the positions were reversed, do you think Toolserver management should be able to approach a project's ArbCom and raise concerns? Carcharoth (talk) 09:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

@Cenarium: Alerting the toolserver management to patent abuses of access is not really overreaching by the Committee. There is a difference between sharing information and making demands - the Committee is, quite appropriately, doing the former. — James F Kalmar 20:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think ArbCom will be "alerting" (especially since the Toolserver admins are likely aware of this). Rather, I think they've proposed to ask the Toolserver to reconsider MZMcBride's access. You stated "patent abuses of access", suggesting more than one incident. Correct me if I'm wrong. If you did mean to imply more than one instance of Toolserver abuse, could you please clarify what those other instances are? Killiondude (talk) 01:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for the confusion. My comment was worded ambiguously. My comment was in the plural (abuses) since I was commenting on the general rule. That is, I believe that in any cases of abuse, communication to the Toolserver management is appropriate. I was not meaning to imply that Mr McBride had committed any specific offense or offenses. — James F Kalmar 02:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Cenarium: I've done my best with the /Configuration subpages and a public github repository to ensure that there is continuity with the database reports, regardless of whether I'm around. Publishing the source code both on-site and off-site is a "lead-by-example" approach, as I feel almost all code and scripts that are very valuable to the Community should be public in case of contributor burnout, mishaps, or what-have-you. If the Toolserver administrators feel I should no longer have access, that's their decision to make. I have far more trust in the Toolserver administrators to be apolitical and reasonable than I do in the Arbitration Committee. I can state that unequivocally.

James F Kalmar: To pretend as though the English Misplaced Pages lives in a vacuum is absurd. This case was brought up on the Toolserver mailing list (cf. this thread). To suggest that the Arbitration Committee is going to be informing anyone of anything is positively and verifiably false. Also, you would be wise to familiarize yourself with the works of the eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand. No, wait. You would be wise to carefully choose your words, as Killiondude points out. "Patent abuses" is very strong language. This is one of those cases where you really need to provide evidence (which shouldn't be too hard given the meaning of "patent") or retract the claim.

Carcharoth: The Toolserver administrators can be contacted at ts-adminswikimedia.org. More information about the Toolserver is available here: tswiki:FAQ. More information about the Toolserver administrators is available here: tswiki:System administrators. I can't imagine a scenario in which the Toolserver administrators would wish to contact the English Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, but the avenues for communication between the two bodies are pretty clear. The English Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee is ultimately accountable to the English Misplaced Pages community. The Toolserver management is ultimately accountable to Wikimedia Deutschland.

--MZMcBride (talk) 01:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

See above. Without comment on your actions specifically, I believe that in any cases where any user is found by the Committee to have abused Toolserver access, a formal notification of the facts should be made to the management. — James F Kalmar 02:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"the findings of the case" with regard to MZM's use of the Toolserver are rather one-sided. I see no mention of any of the tools that MZM hosts/runs (except for a vague mention of the number of watchers tool) such as User:MZMcBride/wikistalk, WP:Database reports, User:MZMcBride/climax, User:EdwardsBot, or User:LaraBot. Mr.Z-man 02:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration tips

From User:Durova/Durova's arbitration tips#Strategy by Durova:

"Try to conduct yourself so that you have no need to fear arbitration if you do go there. I’ve wound up in arbitration quite a few times because of the volunteer work I do. I've been admonished once for a genuine mistake I made and regretted. In no other case was any finding or remedy proposed against me.

None of us are perfect and sometimes I’ve refactored my comments or apologized to another editor during arbitration. Most of the people who ultimately get sanctioned fail to take responsibility for their own mistakes. Although I don’t have any privileged information about how the Committee members deliberate, the basic process as I understand it is that a case opens because external remedies are probably necessary for one or more people who don’t exercise enough self-control. So ultimately, the best thing do to is to demonstrate that you can handle your own problems. If you’ve made serious mistakes, admit them and do your best to make amends or take corrective steps such as entering the Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user mentorship program. The earlier in the process you take those steps, the better. Don’t do anything to get yourself blocked while the case is open; the message that sends is that if you can’t abide by policy while ArbCom is actively scrutinizing your behavior, you definitely need external limitations imposed on your actions." Sole Soul (talk) 08:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Coren's comment

Really, Coren? I think you forgot about the part that if it's ArbCom-approved, disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point is more than acceptable.

Your actions lately have been worse than disgraceful, Coren. Your comments on this case and elsewhere have ranged from irrelevant to vindictive to flatly wrong. I think it would be wise for the Community to take a break from evaluating how administrators can be recalled and instead focus on how Arbitrators can be. My recall criteria are that if ten administrators say I should step down after a week-long consideration, I will. I've watched your behavior for far longer than a week and you can put me firmly in the "you should resign as an Arbitrator" column, as a former and current administrator on various Wikimedia wikis and as a longtime user. I wonder if it would be difficult to find nine or ten others that agree with me. Hell, I wonder how many of your colleagues on the Arbitration Committee wouldn't mind being able to sign such a statement. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest toning down the rhetoric here and in other commentary. Shell 02:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Rhetoric usually means that there's a "lack of sincerity or meaningful content." While that may or may not be true of my other posts, I can assure you it isn't true of this one. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I know your comment was primarily to Coren himself, so feel free to disregard this reply if you wish. But I respect you as an intelligent person, so I am sure you must be able to see that the Committee is so far unanimously voting to approve the sanctions related to your decision. You will likely have seen that participants in arbitration proceedings are usually always displeased with the arbitrators who vote to sanction them. Thus, any comments you may have will be taken more seriously, with fewer charges of reciprocal criticism, if you wait to make constructive criticisms of the Committee until well after your case is over. As a final note, you will remember that Coren was re-elected just two months ago with remarkably high support for an incumbent. — James F Kalmar 02:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Duly disregarded. Your approach to accountability (changing usernames so many times in the past year that I've lost count, and I imagine you have as well) makes anything you say nearly impossible to listen to. I don't have an issue with most of the Arbitrators or even the Arbitration Committee, really. I commented on a particular Arbitrator and his actions. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I truly was trying to be positive and helpful. I am sorry if my comments and suggestions in relation to this case have made you uncomfortable. It appears to me that ad hominem comments do not make your argument more appealing. In the interests of making sure the record is straight: I have never changed my username without clearly indicating such on my user page, and I have never done anything dodgy such as use two accounts at once. — James F Kalmar 02:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Err, I was commenting on your actions (changing account names frequently). That isn't really "ad hominem." And, hey, you don't seem to have any issue commenting on my actions. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 03:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

My username doesn't seem (in my opinion) to have much to do with your original comments about Coren. But in any event, I will end this conversation here, as it appears to have exhausted any usefulness. I do wish you the best (and I will leave a note to that effect on your userpage). — James F Kalmar 03:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)