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Ozguroot canvassing again

Ozguroot (talk · contribs) has for a second time canvassed fifteen partisan users to a very charged discussion (Talk:Passport and Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-02-04/Passport). The users contacted all have commented on one of the two pages previously, and all in opposition. None of the editors who had supported the compromise were contacted. It only takes a brief search for the names of editors canvassed on Talk:Passport to see how methodically they were picked for their views. Considering the fact that this discussion was previously only held between three users, this has the potential to completely undermine days' worth of discussion, perhaps even destroy the extremely precarious compromise reached. Ozguroot has previously canvassed two users to the discussion, in a foreign language, and was subsequently repeatedly pointed to WP:CANVASS (read from my "03:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)" edit to Talk:Passport) - there is simply no excuse, and I feel a warning is insufficient in light of the irreparable damage done to 160kb of discussion held on Talk:Passport over the last few weeks.

It has been raised on ANI before Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive593#Passport-related_edit_war) that Ozguroot may be a sock-puppet due to the similarity between his editing patterns and those of another sock-master, as well as his strange out-of-the-blue editing history. The possibility was never properly investigated.

Diffs: 16 Jan 09 canvassing:

1. Kerem Ozcan (translation: Google)
2. Kaygtr (translation: Google)

Today's canvassing:

1. Vmenkov
2. Jake Wartenberg
3. Valenciano
4. Rave92
5. Qwerta369
6. Tomi566
7. El Otro
8. Pryde 01
9. Gaston28
10. Philip200291
11. Tetromino
12. Bonus bon
13. Glenfarclas
14. Sky Harbor

And one in a foreign language, also from today:

1. Ajdamania2 (translation: Google)

One of the users above (Pryde 01) even launched a very scathing personal attack on the talk pages of me and another user and was subsequently given an only-warning by an administrator.

It pains me to report Ozguroot right after he had posted his very possibly first rational reply, and I would like to note that this is not an attempt to kill discussion, there is another very committed editor (Avala) with which my discussion on the subject matter continues, but I feel as though I've been wasting my effort only to be toppled by simple brute-force numeric supremacy. My Mediation Request has not yet been taken up by a mediator, and I am not sure what to do. Considering the fact every oppose has been notified, would it be prudent for me to canvass all the support votes, in an effort to return balance to the façade of discussion being held at Talk:Passport and Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-02-04/Passport? Action against Ozguroot, as well as advice on how to proceed with the discussion, would be much appreciated. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

They are the editors of the articles in subject. User:Happenstance could actually do that, instead of me, to notify them and let them know about the change or his "decide", before making over 250 deletions. But he did NOT never tell anyone. They don't know what is happening. Additionally, i am afraid that "Ozguroot has for a second time canvassed fifteen partisan users."' is totally a lie. When was the first time? I don't remember. I just asked for the opinions of two editors. - If you call this "canvassing FIFTEEN partisan users". Also please have a look at United_States_passport, Ukrainian_passport, its not only about a single editor, none of the articles editors accept your own "decide/consensus". But you ignore their opinions, you insist, insist, insist and delete, delete, delete. They were keeping undoing your changes as well. Is this a consensus, is this a solution? Let's be . As we see, you deleted the sections of over 250 Misplaced Pages articles, and you did NOT want NOBODY to get notified before doing so. That's not normal, in my humble opinion. Your reason was: (rm visa-free bloc per consensus on Talk:Passport). But there was NOT such a consensus at all. See Talk:Passport, too many OPPOSE editors there. Which consensus? Shortly, I just asked for their opinions on the matter. It pains me to hear "Ozguroot may be a sock-puppet" only because i asked for the editors opinions, so they could help on that matter, - as we were never reaching a consensus- . Why not to discuss all together, instead of an edit war? Regards. --Ozguroot (talk) 07:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

OK here is my view - Happenstance, Ozguroot did what you were supposed to do. This is not canvassing, but notifying regular editors, something that you failed to do and caused all the mess on the Passport talk page. He also did it in neutral manner, something that you also probably wouldn't be able to do.--Avala (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I object to be being called a "partisan user," as Happenstance calls me above. My handful of edits on this issue do not display one iota of partisanship, and I take this remark as uncivil and a failure to assume good faith. My attempt to smooth it over with Happenstance was not successful; his response was, it's not pejorative, I'm just saying that you're devoted or biased toward one side. That's not at all true, in any sense, and I feel it's appropriate to make my objection here.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 20:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

So, rather than notifying me you still had problems with my clarification, you chose to come here without even dropping a line on my talk. And then you say I violated WP:AGF. I have explained my definition of partisan, and I have stated that it was not intended to be pejorative. We clearly have differing definitions of the term. Mine comes straight from the WP:CANVASS policy. —what a crazy random happenstance 06:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The total apathy and lack of administrator response to what is a repeated and rather serious violation of a significant behavioural guideline is quite worrying, and could very easily completely undermine weeks' worth of discussion. —what a crazy random happenstance 09:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've only just hopped onto ANI to read this. Now I can't say whether these are partisan editors, and in fact I don't think that's helpful, but I would have thought that a better way forward would be to file an article RFC. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 12:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought a Mediation Request would be great, I did not anticipate every opposition-voter to mysteriously materialise and the Request to be summarily ignored by all and sundry. If you review Talk:Passport, you'll see what I had to put up with during this debate, and to not receive one iota of community support against editors who are clearly, repeatedly, and proudly breaking the rules to make their point is extremely disheartening. As the lone editor clinging to policy and precedent, and as the only one making any sort of effort to discuss, I challenge anyone who has read the entirety of the debate at Talk:Passport to tell me Avala and Ozguroot acted appropriately, and that I didn't. So, what am I after at this point? In brief, Ozguroot needs a warning block for canvassing a second time after repeated warnings and explanations of the canvassing policy; and the debate needs a mediator. —what a crazy random happenstance 05:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

A warning block for canvassing? Read the answers again then. Additionally, following your logic, you should also get such a warning because you did exactly the same thing. Even worse. I just wrote them "share your opinion with us". Letting the editors know about a possible future change is not forbidden in Misplaced Pages, is it? I don't think so. Especially when the editors are in edit wars, when they always undoing your completely persistent section-deletions, and when you don't find any solution/consensus. I really don't understand why you are so angry because i wrote messages to the editors explaining the situation and asked for their opinions. I did not write as "partisan" as your text, though. See what did you write?;

And here is the "Canvassing" from User talk:Happenstance:

1. Hans_Adler
2. TreasuryTag
3. Spartaz
4. Funandtrvl
5. Blue-Haired_Lawyer
6. ArmadniGeneral

They all are the users who have expressed a positive viewpoint, from your "side". Also, do you always call the users "a suspected sockpuppet" who don't agree with you here? Discuss, but fairly, please. Your problem is not to solve the matter, your problem is, obviously, a good ban to me, that's all what you need, you try every single possible thing for that, lies, cheatings, false, fake and incorrect claims, ONLY because i did not agree your unfair section deletions on more than 250 articles, i did not agree that just like the rest other 15 editors.

Also see:

1. "Partisan message"

--Ozguroot (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

See my talk for the background to that. And look at the dates of those messages. Upon being urged to by RashersTierney, I dropped notes on the talks of the uncontacted remainder of those who voted in the discussion, which in light of Ozguroot's previous canvassing happened to all represent a certain side. RashersTirney said, on my talk: "To redress the balance of the very obvious canvassing based on the perceived bias of editors, I think that all who have so far expressed any view on resolving the 'visa-free blocks' should be made aware of the continuing 'debate'" and I happen to agree. I asked whether this is appropriate here, in my first post, and received no reply, I assumed it was OK. I am amazed Ozguroot, of all people is attempting to spin this as a negative. —what a crazy random happenstance 11:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Abusive IP Addresses

Moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Soft blocking AOL.

Personal attacks and disruption on Talk:Sarah Palin

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Scribner has retired from the project following the discussion below and the imposition of a narrow topic ban. jæs (talk) 06:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

We need an uninvolved admin at Talk:Sarah Palin, where Scribner (talk · contribs) has descended (again) into personal attacks and tendentious editing. Disregarding his total failure to assume good faith (towards any editor whose views differ from his own), he has made his current target SB_Johnny (talk · contribs) who was identified by the community as an uninvolved admin assigned to deal with disputes on the article. (See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive504#Sarah Palin probation proposal.) Since Johnny is the target of Scribner's abuse, he might be accused of a CoI if he blocks Scribner, so I am asking for another uninvolved editor to take a look and decide if action needs to be taken. FWIW, I have a long history of conflict with Scribner on this specific article (and no others), so take this report with a grain of salt. Horologium (talk) 04:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

He's pushed a lot, but not to the point of blockability quite, in my opinion. I have left a warning on his talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Horologium, you've got history with this article that's quite embarrassing. (Redacted personal attack.) But, as an administrator and editor you're the worst I've encountered. Scribner (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, on top of Johnny's failed enforcement of policy regarding personal attacks, there's been retaliation edits on the TN GOP article by Malke. So, in attempting one simple edit on the Palin page, I feel like I've suffer three separate retaliations. Wiki at its worst. Scribner (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Is Palin alleged to have violated the law? Keep in mind she doesn't own those books, the publisher does. If she wanted to distribute them to contributors, she probably had to buy them (possibly at wholesale rate). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I've redacted an absolutely unnecessary personal attack from the preceding comment. jæs (talk) 06:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That comment looked like a paraphrasing of what Auntie Em said to Miss Gulch. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Auntie Em said: "For twenty-three years I've been dying to tell you what I thought of you! And now... Well, being a Christian woman, I can't say it!" If Mrs. Em were an editor, I'd advise her of the same: attacking another editor is not the way to address your concerns. If Mrs. Em took a nastier route, and was also an editor with a history of poisoning the well, as it were, I'd redact her comment. In either case, I'd suggest Mrs. Em avoid directly interacting with Mrs. Gulch if she couldn't keep her opinion of Mrs. Gulch to herself. jæs (talk) 02:58, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I find it ironic that the Palin article is alleged to have been "scrubbed clean". Where have I heard that before? For the Obama article, that's where. Apparently, wikipedia is infested with both liberals and conservatives. Forsooth! ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed! It's just preferable, in fact obligatory, that said liberals and conservatives focus on editing productively -- as opposed to disruptively -- and not attack each other. It's possible, I tell you! jæs (talk) 05:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Psst....Why are you guys talking in small letters? Doc Quintana (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

To conserve space. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If you're interested, I can provide diffs from another edit war he's conducting over at Tennessee Republican Party. I used the talk page to discuss concerns and put POV and Criticism tags. He removed them. He argued. I got a 3rd Opinion. The 3rd Opinion editor found the article had a racist slant. I put the tags back. He removed them. Another editor put them back just now. He removed them again. If he doesn't get his way he puts tags up. If he doesn't like what you say, he takes them down. Diffs upon request. It is impossible to reason with this fellow.Malke2010 07:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Blocked for disruption for 24 hrs. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I hope that, after this ends, he doesn't do that again.— Dædαlus 07:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

(OD)He just removed a declined unblock request, and I have just reverted him. I also warned him that such attempts would be met with a loss of the ability to edit the talk page.— Dædαlus 08:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

And he just removed it again. I of course reverted him. Can an admin possibly warn him?— Dædαlus 09:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I've done so. I referred him to WP:BLANKING which states that declined unblock requests cannot be removed for the duration of the block, and warned him that removing it again will cause him to lose the ability to edit his own talk page until he is unblocked. -- Atama頭 17:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sanction time?

Uninvolved admin here ... I just looked at his block log. Good grief, it's genormous. Could it be time for a topic ban of some kind? Looks like it to me. Blueboy96 17:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not condoning this user's recent actions, esp the edit warring to remove the unblock decline, but that block log is not exactly what I'd call enormous. There's only 3 blocks that were not overturned well before the duration was up, and those were about 3 years ago. Tarc (talk) 18:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess it's because it looks like this has been an ongoing problem ever since he arrived here--the first block was back in 2006. Tells me this is a problem that should have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner than now. Blueboy96 18:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Tarc, Scribner had only 32 edits between April 24, 2007, and February 11, 2009, which explains the big gap in his block log. There is no evidence that he has learned from his previous blocks. He has been unblocked because he promised not to do the same behavior on the article in question (different article in each case), but that hasn't stopped him from repeating the same modus operandi on different articles. Also notice that all his recent activity has focused on three hot-button political issues (Sarah Palin, Tennessee Republican Party, and Tea Party movement, in which he is very clearly displaying a pattern of POV pushing behavior. Horologium (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Just pointing out that it wasn't as lengthy as I expected it to be, put down the pitchforks. It does appear that his talk page will have to be locked soon though, due to the repeated removals of the block decline notice. Tarc (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

(OD)Looking through the block log of this user, I see that they have primarily been blocked for edit warring/personal attacks, and as of the block before last, that time had been extended until a week, then lifted on the promise he wouldn't do it again. Seeing as how he has obviously done it again, what is the next step up? 24 hours is too short for a repeat offender.— Dædαlus 20:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm requesting an indefinite ban for Scribner from US politics-related article. I was watching over the Sarah Palin article a couple months back, and Scriber was definitely one of the major problems at the article then. Looks like things have not changed much since then, and it has been even longer of a problem than I have thought. Thoughts? NW (Talk) 20:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I won't !vote below (due to my involvement), but I think that's a good idea. Horologium (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Indef topic ban

Per what NW said above, and to centralize discussion and for ease of editing,

• Support - Per what NW has outlined above and this user's block log. Broken promises is all they have to give. Maybe this will prevent further disruption from them.— Dædαlus 21:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse If this user hasn't learned to cool it down in four years on its own, sadly we're gonna have to force him to do so. Blueboy96 21:56, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support - The amount of time an editor uses up in dealing with Scribner on these pages is lost from building the project. Scribner does not respond to working within process. Only one thing he said on the Tenn Republican Party talk page showed any ray of light of understanding when he said he could see my point about an edit. He also said he didn't support my point, but he could understand it. He said all this about ten minutes before he got blocked. The Sarah Palin episode caused so much disruption. He came over to the Tea Party Movement article and slapped tags on it because he disagreed with a comment on the talk page. It feels like a boulder has dropped on an editor's head when he appears on a page. But in the last 24-48 hours he seems to have been especially disruptive. I don't know what is at the root of this. But for now, a topic ban might help him regain some perspective. He's right about the Tenn Republican Party being racists, and it's Tenn, throw a rock you'll hit a klansman. And Sarah Palin isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but this is an encyclopedia, and not a forum for disruption, or a soapbox, or a soap opera.Malke2010 06:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, what? That post was full of wrong. Issues fixed Throwaway85 (talk) 10:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Ban from what topic? If you're going to propose a topic ban, you should state what topic the user is banned from. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

NW wrote, "I'm requesting an indefinite ban for Scribner from US politics-related article.". You can see this right above this section. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:22, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

That is as may be, but it should be specifically indicated at the point where you make the proposal. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

It is. I quite clearly state, "as NW said above..."— Dædαlus 22:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose I haven't visited Tenn Republican Party or Tea Party movement but the core issue at Sarah Palin is a content dispute (gosh!) between Scribner and several other editors with opposing POVs. It's ruthless and nobody plays nice. I can't be arsed to go through the diffs, but observing developments at SP talk leaves a strong impression that pressure is subtly but regularly applied towards sanitizing the article (plus ca change. . .), and one or two in Scribner's opposition appear to have ownership issues, all of which Scribner resists. The proposed catch-all topic ban serves the interests of SP's WP protectors at the expense of the article itself. Scribner seems clued-up on SP and may have much to offer, but is not afraid to speak his/her mind rather bluntly, is outnumbered by opposing editors, and reacts too strongly for his/her own good to the goading and bullying etc. that SP talk offers would-be contributors who are not members of the Palin club. (Although arguably no stranger to personal attacks him/herself, Scribner has also been on the receiving end of abuse and apparent attempts to run him/her off the article. Few if any hands remain spotlessly clean at SP.) Given that Scribner's problems at SP appear to be largely procedural, solutions that are more constructive and less draconian might be worth considering here. E.g. WP:Mentorship. I'd like to hear what Scribner has to say about that. Writegeist (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Involuntary mentorship has a track record of prolonging conflicts and burning out mentors. If this editor has already sought out a mentor proactively that might be another matter? The difference has something to do with "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." The people who succeed through mentorship tend to be the ones who recognize the need for it and seek it out without being compelled. Durova 01:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
• Reluctantly support an indefinite topic ban. He is evidently growing increasingly unable to work within the guidelines set here, at an article on probation no less. The increasing attacks against anyone who disagrees with him combine with a long history of disruptive editing and a nearly complete inability -- within this topic area -- to work towards consensus. (I've seen one instance in which he was part of a process that resulted in consensus, but it was fraught with disruptive tactics on his part, and he's now taken to using that event as a line of attack against an administrator and editor involved in that process. Hardly heartening.) After a period of time (perhaps a few weeks or months), if he is willing to agree to take the personal attacks and disruptive tactics off the table, then I'd support lifting the topic ban. jæs (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Scribner is back at it on the Sarah Palin page. He's not using the talk page. He's adding to the lead and putting up a POV tag. No consensus, no discussion. If you want to know what Scribner has to say on an indef topic ban, I believe he's spoken.Malke2010 23:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to mention I don't think any editor is trying to run him off articles. Editors just want him to work within the process which means working for consensus. Right now he seems to think he doesn't need to do that.Malke2010 00:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose . Some of the points Scribner made hold merit. A few of the editors on the page have been rather uncivil and I think that coupled with the fact that other editors disagreed with him resulted in frustration and shouting back. I don't think it yet merits admin intervention.Chhe (talk) 01:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

NOTE If you feel my edits to the Palin article were an attempt to damage the integrity of Wikiapedia as an encyclopedia, I should be banned from the Palin article. There's been no malice on my part, other than to add two simple facts. Don't blame me for standing my ground and defending policy. Look at the vast amount of effort it took to include the simple fact that Palin did not complete her first term as governor. Horologium fought the edit the hardest, claiming it POV. The wholesale POV in the article speaks for itself. Scribner (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

A couple hours ago, I banned Scribner from Sarah Palin-related articles, talk pages, and community discussions. I still think that this discussion should continue to see if the community wishes to expand the scope of the ban. NW (Talk) 04:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Writegeist it's "he" by the way and Chhe, thanks very much for your input. Malke, you appear to have a problem with exaggerating and honestly lying, for lack of a better term, in the case of your claims with the TN GOP article and the Tea Party movement article. I think you suffer from WP:OWN issues with regard to conservative issues. Misplaced Pages becomes less an encyclopedia by shutting down vigorous debate. One thing I noticed when I returned to Misplaced Pages is that the best editors I had the pleasure of working with had left. It's obvious why the effort continues to degrade. Scribner (talk) 05:09, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• A topic ban from 'US politics-related topics' looks, in this case, to be effectively a site ban since Scribner doesn't edit anything else. So inline with NW's above point - is there evidence of this volunteer using the site in a non-tendentious manner outside the Sarah Palin and US Politics topic areas? Because if there is not we should be discussing a ban rather than a topic ban. The reason I point this out is so that we don't end up moving a problem and having to go through this all over again.
  That said I do endorse the topic ban from US politics articles, but with the above caveat--Cailil 17:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is proof of me "using the site in a non-tendentious manner" in economics and other BLP's. But, there won't be evidence of me kowtowing to administrators who are either in error of policy or biased in judgment, or both. I've placed my account in indefinite retirement. Scribner (talk) 06:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Need help with a situation

119.160.18.209 (talk · contribs) has been, for the past few weeks, sparring with Omirocksthisworld (talk · contribs), and they've been edit-warring on multiple articles. After a recent block, Omirocksthisworld has been toning down his aggression, but there's a lot of bad blood here, and 119. doesn't seem to understand the term "agree to disagree".

Tonight's incident seems to be spread across two articles, at WP:AN3 and WP:RPP respectively. However, while Omi has at least been civil this time, 119. seems to be feeling cheated out of an arms race and is starting to cross over into harassment, issuing ultimatums, copy-and-pasting a 3RR report Omi filed against him, and berating him for "issuing an ultimatum" (actually the bog-standard {{uw-3rr}}). Since I need to head off to bed, could a chummer take over for me? —Jeremy 10:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

As I was notifying the IP, it was blocked 24h. Depending on his behavior, this thread may have been rendered moot. —Jeremy 10:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)And as I was writing this, ... IP Blocked for 24 hours for violating 3RR, but as this IP has only been editing today, I expect we will have this Karchi based editor, using Mobilink-Infinity, back again soon. I'll have a word with Omirocksthisworld. Dougweller (talk) 10:45, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Though personally I have nothing against this editor, the fact that he was not willing to discuss issues or even attempt to reach an agreement really irritated me. At first I just kept reverting his edits hoping that the strange edits would stop or that he would start to attempt to work things out, but I think I made him angrier and he seemed to felt that it was personal. That's when the edit warring issues started and I ended up getting blocked for forgetting Wiki procedure. This time around I reported him, which I think made him feel even more like I was personally against him or something (at least thats what it looks like from his comments on my talk page). I think the main issue with the other editor is that he doesn't know English too well so when I try discussing things with him he doesn't quite understand, and it looks like he is from Pakistan because he was using derogatory words in Urdu on Talk: Younus AlGohar. Since this issue has been ongoing I think I will have to put an RFC tag on the articles that the IP has been having problems with so that this doesn't keep happening. Hopefully things will get better once different neutral editors start discussion on the talk pages. I'm very sorry for my part in all these disruptive editing wars and my mistakes with Wiki procedure. --Omi(☺) 11:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

This user (who may be Falconkhe?) is today engaged in related behaviour at Sufism. See edit diff, and also earlier article history and talk page comments. Esowteric+Talk 12:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Has just returned as 119.160.36.86 and made the same change to Sufism, possibly to avoid 3RR edit war. Esowteric+Talk 15:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Falconkhe is also engaged in an edit war with Omirocksthisworld today at Younus AlGohar: see the article history. RAGS International shows a similar history of conflict. Esowteric+Talk 16:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• Don't blaim me for 119 acts, what you are getting is readers response might be but I should not hold responsible for that.Its true that I have some differences with Omirocksthisworld but it doesn't mean that I was blaming for doing nothing. I always try my best to abide the rules & regulation of wikipedia--Falconkhe (talk) 16:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm well I don't know if it was an edit war, but he was removing the references I was adding (hopefully by mistake). His edit summaries on the article history have been confusing though. Anyway, we've been discussing it in Talk:Younus AlGohar and hopefully we can come to an understanding soon. Though I personally don't have anything against Falconkhe myself, his recent edits to Younus AlGohar, RAGS International, Imam Mehdi Gohar Shahi, and pretty much all the articles/pages related to Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi haven't exactly been constructive. Omi(☺) 21:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Omi you are getting confused since you are a lier but you don't know one thing that a lie has to be reveal one day. MFI and Younas are the terrorist, this is the reason you have to flee from Pakistan and this is the only reason that you people are facing legal problem in all other countries whereever, you are taking shelters, the people of MFI have misused the law of UK and used it for taking legal shelters under the umbrella of asylyme, you have misguided British Government and provide false proof (like you are doing on wikipedia) to them. We are planning to use interpole to bring younas back to Pakistan and hopefully it will not take long time.--Falconkhe (talk) 07:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Please refrain from making inappropriate/abusive comments. Esowteric+Talk 20:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Falconkhe, I don't even live in the UK, nor have I ever been to Pakistan. I understand that you aren't particularly fond of the organization and you want to have your voice heard about them. But if you want to actually contribute you need to provide reliable sources for your claims (so that it can be included in the article) Omi(☺) 21:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings, I'm an editor with no ties to the religious quarrels in question, who stumbled into this issue. Falconkhe, and a number of similar-number IPs with very similar writing styles and phrasings have been engaged in constant and ongoing harassment in articles related to the religious figure Gohar Shahi. Despite all encouragements to remain objective and provide sources, Falconkhe and similar-opinion (?) IPs have continued the exact same behavior, making POV accusations both on Talk and the article, reversions, etc. Some admin attention to these patterns of misbehavior would be greatly appreciated. MatthewVanitas (talk) 08:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Omi, thats what I am asking you to provide with reliable sources and contribute positively, each time you come up with references of self-made websites like you are preaching self-made teaching and linked that up with HH Gohar Shahi. Please provide reliable sources for your articles.--Falconkhe (talk) 10:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This is not borne-out by some of your edits: "Edit diff showing removal of Falconkhe's "extremely POV comments" by an uninvolved editor Esowteric+Talk 10:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There's also a lot of jiggery-pokery going on sporadically to redirect and unredirect pages to Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi, eg edit diff and edit diff involving Falconkhe and Nasiryounus Esowteric+Talk 10:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Whatever I have done, I have provide with genuine reasons and reliable sources.--Falconkhe (talk) 10:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that's not correct. You've not provided any references regarding RAGS International, to which Omi did provide references which are reliable as well. And you accuse Omi of providing references that are not reliable; you might want to provide references from that.-- NY7 ☆ 06:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, we can just discuss the sources on the respective talk pages, and decide how reliable they are for what they are being used for there. Falconkhe, I think you could actually make the articles relating to Gohar Shahi more neutral by offering references for your claims. Otherwise, you can continue to say "So-and-so are conspiring against Gohar Shahi" but it can't be added in the articles without sources. Just, please be a little more respective towards the other editors on Misplaced Pages, and maybe use more descriptive edit summaries- and I'm sure things can work out. Omi(☺) 07:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The broader context for all this is that for some time several editors have been involved in a battle over any articles to do with Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi: articles about him; about his organizations; mentioning him; or redirecting to him. Editors are split into three main camps: Gohar supporters; Gohar critics and neutral editors who understand Misplaced Pages's requirements. Esowteric+Talk 10:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

There is also the issue of 119. editors and Falconkhe repeatedly sneaking in gratuitous Gohar Shahi references and images into articles where neutral editors see no justification for doing so. One example is the Sufism article, which Esowteric+Talk has already referred to in his 12:22, 6 February 2010 and 15:50, 6 February 2010 comments.

User:Caesarjbsquitti soapboxing - community input requested

As I am semi-involved I feel it necessary ask for community input in relation to restricting User:Caesarjbsquitti. There is a long term issue with his use of talkspace, his attitude toward other editors and editing in breach of WP:OR, WP:SOAP. To my mind this user has demonstrated a disregard for site standards and policies that is fundamentally incompatible with the core principles of this site fo a number of years. I suggest it is time to restrict Caesar's talk page postings, or to consider an other community sanction.--Cailil 05:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Report

Caesarjbsquitti (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)
User:Caesarjbsquitti is continuing to use this site, its article pages, its talk space and its user space to push his ideas. Caesarjbsquitti has published a book which he uses his user page to advertise in breach of WP:USER and WP:AD . He uses talkspace to lecture us all on how 'The truth can lie' and has been doing so for years.
He has accused this site, its sysops, and other volunteers of intimidation and censorship
But the issue is that User:Caesarjbsquitti is soapboxing and forum posting on this site in relation to multiple topics. He repeated this behaviour today. Rather than block him I warned him again, and again (explaining why), and again. He hasn't listened. (please note also he posted the same stuff to two pages ) Therefore I'm bringing this to the community in order to request broader input on the situation.

History

He was topic banned from 9/11 articles for soapboxing, he was blocked twice for it, he has been repeatedly warned over the course of years but he is not listening.

I'm restricting evidence to edits since his topic ban in June 2008. For anyone interested in his behaviour before that please see this for an indicative situation and conversation related to the topic Devil.

Soapboxing since the 2008 topic ban

• Relevant policies & guidelines: WP:TPG, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTFORUM & WP:BATTLE

On Talk:English language .
On Talk:Thallium
On Medicine_in_China
On Talk:Crohn's disease
About feminism and bias against men
On Talk:Pornography
On 'abuse' topics (watch out for repeated phrases like censorship, hidden agenda etc)
On Talk:Political correctness

Multiposting

• Relevant policies WP:POVPUSH, WP:MULTI, WP:TPG,

On Vitamin talk pages

On domestic violence topic articles (June 2008) - please note the coatrack issue in this case.

Thanks for taking the time to review this--Cailil 05:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar's response

The issue of this complaint deals with the listing for Violence against LGBT People

The problem with the entry is that it polarizes the issue, as do many of the past entries on abuse, most notable againt men, and against the heterosexual community. Here is the reference provided.

A most notable case involved a bisexual women who killed her boyfriend, by becoming involved with a lesbian woman,Bisexual Girlfriend found guilty of axe murder

I will try to find another link. The fact as you say that the CBC does not make mention of the sexual orientation, (while other sites do) shows how censorship of this situation is quite prominent in North America, or at least Canada...Guilty verdict in lesbian axe murder

This article in the Toronto Sun makes mention of a lesbian, (the CBC report states same sex. Another article title refers to a bi-sexual woman. (good case study for political correctness ?)Toronto woman in court in bisexual love-triangle murder case

This article must remove gender or orientation biases because it is discriminatory. While it is true this group can be victimized by others, they also can be victimized by themselves and they can also be abusers.

The issue is addressed by someone else as well...Violence by LGBT

As a researcher of deceptive truths, ie half-truths it is important to overcome this deceptive and flawed type of reasoning. --Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 17:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

First of all Caesar this issue is not about the content of your posts but rather the form. What you are demanding is that article about violence against women and violence against LGBT people remove the gender category from them. These articles are about gender based violence not violence in general. Your posts are criticisms of the subject and that kind of posting is not permitted as per WP:TPG and WP:FORUM. You've had this explained to you multiple times - in fact you were just blocked for this kind of post last winter. The reason I brought this here was to discuss with the wider community what to do about it--Cailil 18:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I would like to point out to you that...You say that the artilce is about gender based violence well violence against women can also be perpetruated on women in general by some women. (In lesbian relationships the violence is by women against women.) Enough has been said about the anti-male, anti-heteroseuxal approach of the current models dealing with violence and abuse. 10 years ago much of this matter was being censored by individuals with a conflict of interest.

In so far as violence against LGBT you suggest that it is by non LGBT, and that is incorrect. There are lesbians who abuse homosexuals, there are homosexuals who abuse lesbians, and on and on...To merely paint heterosexuals as THE abusers is a deceptive half-truth.

The example given in the talk page, that of a bi-sexual woman and her lesbian female lover killing the bi-sexuals boyfriend suggests we have to rethink our model of violence against LGBT to include violence by LGBT, or we can include examples of LGBT members abusering other members of the LGBT group, as a matter of fairness. The current models are one sided, unfair, sexist and biased. The evidence is clear, and someone should change the listing to be more inclusive and non-discriminatory.

Many postings are a conflict of interest.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 21:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar because you made quite a serious allegation I am going to directly ask a number of editors to review this situation in the hope that the wider community will weigh in--Cailil 22:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Further none of the remarks you have attributed to me in the above post reflect anything that I have said. Also please remember this not about the content of your postings but rather the form--Cailil 22:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I note that the issue is 'neutrality' of the topics involved and an attempt to censor my postings and or comments to suggest an improvement. On the one hand after repeated 'criticisms' that are clearly in keeping with trying to keep the wikipeida neutral, there are some with a hidden agenda who would rather see me not posting. Sadly, many with a conflict of interest. If you do a cross section analysis of them you may find the key.

Let history show that in all the comments on this listing, not once did the analysis of the fact that some within the LGBT community can also abuse was addressed.

While at first my postings were being deleted even after being referenced, it became obvious that even posting to the 'talk' page to improve the wikipedia articles, even with providing legitimate sources was not acceptable to some.

This reminds me of how the radical feminists, and how some radical lesbian feminists were able to corrupt the models of abuse, first the children's aid society with the model, "men who abuse, women and children victims' and then the spousal models with the slogan, "Stop violence against women..." including the incident involved Ms. Simpson whose sister ignored the simple truth that a Mr. Goldberg was also murdered in the incident.

Thanks for your time and consideration....--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 19:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is another source to your article that should be dealt with.

• • What about the killing of the great Italian DesignerGianni Versace by Andrew Cunanan.

I am begining to understand how someone can be railroaded based on a conflict of interest, and or hidden agenda.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar, first I don't have any "hidden agenda" - please stop assuming bad faith. Second, this is in your hands but you're not listening. Durova has given good advice please read it and consider it. And remember this is about how you use talk-space not about sources or other content matters. Third, by using this page as a soapbox you aren't helping yourself - please reconsider this approach--Cailil 20:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Your arguments about the posting that necessitated this, (that appeared just after another concern about the LGBT group appear illogical. You use truths non-critically to paint a rather poor picture of my postings. I suggest you address the issue, the posting, that sparked this latest concern, and that is what talk pages are for. Let me repeat this again. The current listing is impartial, unfair, biased, one sided. My suggestion was to improve it and yet you have not given me a reason why it should not be added, merely attack me--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 22:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar, this is not the place to discuss content but briefly: you want to add a source (a news item that alleges a women's female lover killed her boyfriend on that woman's request) to Violence against women and violence against LGBT people. But this source is not about violence against women or LGBT people, I told you that there, as did User:C.Fred. You use the source to criticize the subject of the articles. This is a) not relevant to the article and b) not acceptable use of an article talkpage.
Please listen Caesar, I don't want you to get banned if you are willing to be a productive editor - but you have threatened me, verbal insulted me and accused me of conflicts of interest without basis. This kind of behaviour is not acceptable on a site founded on principles of civility and assumptions of good faith. If you retract (strike) these remarks immediately I will ignore them if not I must follow site protocol for dealing with harassment. It's your choice. The door is still open - you can convince people that you are willing to work within the rules and standards of this site. The work you did today on Sinusitis is good. You can continue to do good work if you recognize what you've been doing wrong--Cailil 22:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Outside views

Cailil has asked me to review this thread. The soapboxing is worrisome, especially since it appears to have continued on other subjects unabated since the implementation of a topic ban. The issue is not whether Caesarjbsquitti's opinions are correct but whether he presents them in ways that are compatible with Misplaced Pages's structure and mission. Article talk pages exist to discuss specific improvements to articles; they are not forums for sharing personal opinions about a subject. Has there been any formal dispute resolution attempted recently? Other than the topic ban this editor's block log is short. It might be that a constructive approach such as a user conduct request for comment could steer things toward a more productive and wiki-compatible direction. Durova 23:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Durova. The last DR attempted was in relation to English language in September 2009. Caesar had WP:FORUM explained to him again then. And after 4 warnings was brought here. Caesar's response to this was to assume bad faith of the others involved rather than engage with the policy issue (same text posted twice - and BTW the first diff shows him altering an archived ANI thread). Apart from his talk postings to Talk:Violence against LGBT people, Talk:Violence against women, his replies on his own talk page, and the posts here Caesar has only made one edit to wikipedia since his last block - so there has been no chance to engage with him through WP:DR--Cailil 00:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Calil has asked me to review this thread. I have in fact enountered Caeserjbsquitti many times in the past. I have never been involved in a conflict with him. However, I have only seen him use talk pages for soap-boxing, and have never seen him constructively edit an article; any edits I have followed were reverted by someone else. I endorse Durova's point that talk pages are for the purpose of improving articles. Frankly Caeser's statement at this thread, "As a researcher of deceptive truths, ie half-truths it is important to overcome this deceptive and flawed type of reasoning." makes the case against him quite well. For all the time that he has ben at Misplaced Pages, he still does not understand that (1) Misplaced Pages is not about truth but about verifiability and (2) not a place for an editor to forward his or her own views. Yet Caeser admits that is all he wishes to do here. Frankly, I think Caser should be banned, out and out. I m calling for a community ban, because Caeser has never shown any indication ofagreeing to or being willing to work within the framework of our core policies and to the contrary simply hijacks talk pages to promote his own views. Can anyone provide one example of a substantive improvement he made to any - any - article?

His allegations against Cailil are for me the last straw. I do not know Cailil well, but I do know that s/he has worked very hard on a number of actual articles, making major contributions to the encyclopedia. Morover I have seen him/her involved in edit conflicts where s/he has always shown patience in working towards a compromise based on core content plicies. In short, one of our best eidtors. Bor Caeser, who is nothing but a POV pusher, to criticise Ailil, who works hard to make this a better encyclopedia, is in my view perverse.

If people think my call for a community ban is too hash I ask people to propose soething less harsh but that will allow us to police his actions for a finite period of time to see whether a ban is justified. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Disagree, the last posting was well referenced, and yet the posting has not been addressed as to its validity.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for replying SLR. And just so everyone understands - whenever Caesar has been brought under the spotlight he has always declared that people who do so "have an agenda" not just myself (per )--Cailil 00:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Cailil you have not addressed the referenced material, merely attack me, trying to ban me from wikipedia. A site that I have spent alot of time on.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Also it should perhaps be noted that there is a WP:KETTLE element to his use of WP:COI - when if you look at his userpage and many of his posts he attempts to promote his book--Cailil 00:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you are misinterpreting my comments...they are suggestions based on relevant incidents that are not included in the postings. They are obvious truths that are being ignored.

For example, "The Stop violence against women" campaigns, is an obvious error when it relates to spousal abuse. Child abuse has also been corrupted within recent history.

There are many 'feminists' and others who would deliberately ignore these obvious truths to promote their obvious sexist censorship of valid truths; I have sought repeatedly to merely introduce suggestions to the talk pages for someone else to take the initiative to make changes to the official page.

I thank you for your comments, but I do not see anyone refuting the truth that 'gays, lesbians and bisexuals abuse as well, sometimes each other and sometimes those outside their group" Should you not be addressing the validity of my comments to see whether they are merely opinion or verifiable facts that should be included ?

It appears by the comments made in attack of my comments, that the individual who has started this has 'invited' individuals. I might suggest a more objective and unbiased group.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"Please note: When you click Save, your changes will immediately become visible to everyone. If you wish to run a test, please edit the Sandbox insead."

"Please post only encyclopedic information that can be verified by external sources. Please maintain a neutral, unbiased point of view."

I might ask that you address the link that I have provided and either accept it into the article or establish another one. This was not mere 'soapboxing' as Cilil states.

He identifies as being male, with intersts in atheism, a feminist. But when I suggest that there is obvious anti-male postings he as a male does not defend them as a male would, suggesting to me a problem of logic. Yes I digress, but I do not appreciate being censored or threatened when I point out how articles are unfair,unbalanced, and anti-heterosexual.

When I have more time I will come back with some more research findings...--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding a posting to the English Language that was brought up. If i recall correctly I heard on the CBC that someone had written a book about the english language, specifically that one of the major contributors was a criminal genius who wrote from prison. To this suggestion I was met with resistence. The idea was totally rejected, and more. I used the talk page to suggest an improvement rather than making the change itself. The source was never entered into nor considered.

In regards to conspiracies about 9-11, again suggestions were gathered from reputable TV programs, and again met with censorship, and resistence.

Getting back to the page that started this attack, would someone check the link and suggest whether this is valid and what improvments will be made to include the truth of that matter.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

What about the killing of the great Italian Designer Gianni Versace by Andrew Cunanan ?--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 03:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar no I have not addressed the content (the source you wish to add to Violence against women and Violence against LGBT people) because this is not about that source. This is about how you have been using talkpages for years. How you have ignored policy, warnings, blocks and topic bans - all designed to help you recognize that you are going about using this site improperly. And no I am not "trying to get you banned". I, rather than block you, brought this to the wider community in order to ask them what to do. When you accused me of a conflict of interest I contacted 3 volunteers Durova, Slrubenstein and Jehochman. I also made a point of stating this here on this thread - as did the people replying. This was done so that other, uninvolved people might enter the conversation - now other editors are voicing their opinions on what to do. Slrubenstein suggested a ban, other users agree. You have been advised of policy for a very long time - you have chosen to accuse others of bad faith rather than recognize the problem at your end. You may still be able to change people's minds if you could demonstrate a willingness and ability to accept and abide by site policy and guidelines about talk page postings and the general core principles of the site--Cailil 18:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

You are using truths out of context to try to get me banned by yourself. The issue that brought up this last attack of myself stems from my posting some suggestion that the entry about violence against LGBT, does not include violence by LGBT against LGBT. I have given you a specific link resource. Now you seem to be coatraking all other concerns over the past years to censor me. You have not addressed the suggestion that was a simple attempt to add balance to the article. I would suggest a full inquiry into you, your background, who you are, (you are hiding under a false name) and why your beliefs are attempting to hide a simple truth about the LGBT group.

There is no mention of the many hundreds of entries I have added; an error of omission over the past 4 years.

When I have more time I will get back to this concern. My involvement in wikipedia has been reduced in part due to the resistence to exposing some simple information that appears to be politically incorrect by some like yourself, and you are doing a fine job in using truths to ban me from this.

I will hope you will do all you can in adding balance to many of the articles including how many of them today, are out of balance, (as one other person mentioned on the site previous to my posting) about violence (and abuses ) by the LGBT group.--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"Caesar no I have not addressed the content (the source you wish to add to Violence against women and Violence against LGBT people) because this is not about that source. This is about how you have been using talkpages for years."

Your last response is questionable. I made a simple suggestion and sourced it to add balance and fairness to the entry. You appear to have a conflict with that, otherwise why would you not enter it, nor defend it ?

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 22:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Community ban discussion

It is proposed that User:Caesarjbsquitti be indefinitely banned from editing Wikipeda:

• Support indef ban The talk page comments aren't productive, and I see a total of four article edits since August 2009. AniMate 07:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Just ban him already if that post above is an example of what he's coming out with (seems to be). He's obviously determined to get "The Truth"(TM) into Misplaced Pages come hell or high water, regardless of any of our policies.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support ban I have warned him many times over the years. Its about time. -DJSasso (talk) 18:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support ban - I have run across this editor in the past, and I've often hoped that he would reform after Misplaced Pages policy was explained to him. This hope was misplaced, since he does not listen. So if he continues to edit, we should expect more of the same. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support ban - An editor, accused of soapboxing, uses the situation as an opportunity for more soapboxing (complaining about feminism, etc.). I don't see the editor capable of being neutral enough to edit Misplaced Pages. -- Atama頭 23:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Conditional oppose. ANI discussions are not dispute resolution attempts. Formal dispute resolution at Misplaced Pages takes six forms: wikiquette alerts, article content request for comment, user conduct request for comment, mediation cabal, mediation committee, and arbitration. Balancing respect for Cailil with good faith here. Caesarjbsquitti, you can see where this is headed. Your actions to this point are not compatible with site mission. If you are interested in receiving feedback and adjusting to our norms, please state so clearly. I am offering to certify a conduct RfC in place of an immediate siteban. It's not meant to humiliate--more about giving feedback and getting things on course. Sometimes we all have to put our personal opinions in our pockets and be editors first. If you're willing to get on board with that please say so. Durova 02:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I can't see how an RfC would be helpful here. Looking through his talk page history, acceptable Misplaced Pages editing practices have been explained plenty of times. Everything he can possibly learn from an RfC is either here or no his talk page. The only reason more serious sanctions weren't leveled against him in 2008, was because he was only focused on 9/11 at that time. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive22#User:Caesarjbsquitti_and_unsourced_POV shows his problems have been going on for over two years now, and looking at this, he isn't prolific enough of a content contributor to warrant any sort of leeway for his numerous and years long talk page violations. Sorry, there's assuming good faith and there's being a glutton for punishment. AniMate 04:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm also unsure how much of a dispute there is here. This just looks like flat out abuse by one editor in multiple forums. AniMate 05:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    • This is an opportunity: if he steps up and expresses in a no nonsense way that he's willing to get with the program then let's give real dispute resolution a go. This person has been talking at (not to) the community and the community has been talking at (not to) him. One straightforward offer on the level is appropriate. Durova 06:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• • • • Such an offer would be the triumph of hope over experience. Pigs will fly and hot places will be covered with ice before this editor will step up and offer to get with the program. Do you see any comprehension of Misplaced Pages policy in the comments he has made above? EdJohnston (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I get where you're coming from Durova and as I said to Caesar above, if he can work within site regulations and be a productive editor I'd prefer if he wasn't site banned. I understand how distressing this process probably is for Caesar. So if he can demonstrate a willingness to recognize what he's been doing wrong and undertakes to adjust his postings I'd be happy to support something much lesser than a siteban. But his response demanding my identity "be investigated" is not encouraging.
    That said I don't think an RfC/U would help in this case. There isn't a dispute per se to resolve. Some other measure: restricting his talk activities to one talk page thread (with posts conforming to WP:TPG, WP:EQ and WP:FORUM) per day with an uninvolved sysop to monitor him for 12 months. And/or a topic ban from truth, lies, abuse, violence, men's rights and feminism topics for 12 months--Cailil 10:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    • If this editor doesn't respond positively then the ban will go through as proposed. At least he's had a fair chance. Durova 20:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support ban. I see a long history of abuse of the project, and no sign of willingness to change this behaviour. Also, the problematic behaviour is spread out so far and wide that a mere topic ban will be ineffective to curb it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
• We appear to have a consensus. Does anyone object if I go ahead and enforce the ban? Blood Red Sandman 20:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• I blocked. Blood Red Sandman 20:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Official Shakespears Sister And Siobhan Fahey Web Site

Arhcive: Thank you FisherQueen for visiting our forum. I have uploaded the evidence here:: www. shakespears sister.co.uk/SFTRR.jpg (please remove the space between shakespears and sister ) I would like to complain here myself for the unfair treatment from XinJeisan, who in my opinion has totally acted in an unprofessional manner. Firstly; Songs From The Red Room, is not sold via the website, as it is a new release and availble via retailers during its Charting period. Websites very rarely sell new releases through their own web site, they usually provie and external link to another retailer, as we have done. Secondly, I totally think that XinJeisan is talking of another L Dennison, as I have no idea what that discussion is about on Ron Livingstons talk page. I can confirm I am the webmaster of both Jacquie O'Sullivan and Siobhan Fahey, both former members of Bananarama. Jacquie O'sullivan did work for L Dennison Associates where she casted dancers for music videos productions. My "attacks" on XinJesian were not exactly attacks, they were simply my opinion, and at first i was polite when I asked to why these sites were being removed. But my frustration, built as clearly Xinjesian and Momusfan clearly were not researching the matter properly. Finally, as for advertising, it has always been a well known fact to fans that the MGA Sessions was strictly a web site release! Sold exclusively on Fahey's old web site siobhanfahey.com, and now sold on her new site shakespears sister. co. uk. This wasnt an advertisment, it was helpful information to fans. Thank you for taking time to review this matter. And for the record, shakespears sister.co.uk should eb applied to both Siobhan Fahey and Shakespears Sister wiki pages, as Shakespears Sister is Siobhan Fahey. May i also ad that Xinjesian claims that i have used multiple IPS is totally untrue and with propper research you can see this. I have the one IP address, and my service provider is not Carphone warehouse and never has been. I think Xinjesian saw that our forum members were trying to add the site in support of Siobhan, and he/she has assumed/accused me of chaging my IP address. I really do not appreciate being accused of that. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that the image in question seems to show that this is indeed the official web site, I think that it should be removed from the blacklist. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 03:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Accounts

• Antmarkhemingway (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• 92.13.53.79 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.6.238.202 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.10.15.171 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.12.126.195 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.3.104.60 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.8.226.103 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.9.69.179 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.0.153.204 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 92.3.214.51 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

Registrant(Owner) of these sites is Anthony Hemingway (AKA Antmarkhemingway (talk · contribs)). Long term spamming and abuse including Moving ones own link "UP", which is never a sign of good faith, and off site harassment and personal attacks origionating on the site in question. I Would find it difficult to believe this is anything more than a fan-spammed-site. I see no need for the continued disruption, harassment and abuse that has occured by this individual.--Hu12 (talk) 06:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Concur with Hu12. I suspect that Antmarkhemingway is running sanctioned fansites with permission from Jacquie O'Sullivan and Siobhan Fahey (so "official" in a manner of speaking). However, even if these were official sites registered to the band/record company/individuals involved, there's nothing to say that we have to include them. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia first and foremost and not here to drive web traffic to external sites or provide a fan service. Unfortunately we can only go by the behaviour we observe and Antmarkhemingway has done his sites no favours by behaving like a spammer. Looking at the history of spamming and disruption, I see no compelling reason why these sites should be unblacklisted. EyeSerene 10:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Hu12 is being very petty now i think! And this is not meant in a rude way, but if you knew anything about the internet, a persons IP changes regular, so that is something that is not my problem. Why would i go through the trouble to change my IP address for the sake of editing here? I am a webmaster and know full well that IP addresses are traceable even when changed. Shakespearssister.co.uk is Siobhan Fahey's web site and port of call. All news is posted their, and it is the place for media and fans alike. Those interviews you refer to on the wikipage were actually arranged via ss.co.uk!!! It is not a "fan site", and i really wish you would stop using that term, as you are really getting quite annoying now. Misplaced Pages has used information from ss.co.uk, but when teh contributors try and reference ss.co.uk they haven't been able to! Antmarkhemingway (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

If the band itself publishes the address as the go-to site on its albums, I'm not sure why it would not be an 'official' site. I don't really understand why this site is blacklisted, and I'm not convinced it's 'spamming' to have it in the article; most musician articles include the musician's main site with no problems. The band doesn't appear to be obscure or non-notable, after all. I have been horrified by some of the uncivil behavior I've seen from some of the people trying to add it, but we don't usually blacklist sites for that reason. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There are such things as "official" fansites, where the quality and expertise of the host created pages serve as useful publicity tools - and whose addresses are reproduced on some of the artists products. I know, because I belong to one. This doesn't mean that what is reproduced there is necessarily representative of the subject, since it is the editorial decision of the site owner, but the relationship is sufficiently beneficial to be given "official" recognition. While not an unreliable source, such sites should be treated with caution when it is the only available reference. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense; I'm willing to let this be decided by people more learned in the subject than me. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

May i ad for one final time that this is certainly not a "fan site" it fully represents the band. But how can i prove this? Just becasue the site isnt registered to Shakespears Sister??? I purchased the domain and hosting in my name as i pay for the hosting on behalf of Siobhan fahey. All i ask is people just take a look at the site and look at its content, its clearly represenative of the band and all the information on the site is 100% correct and accurate. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 21:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I think what generally separates a "fan site" from an "official site" is that the former is amateur (as in "labour of love") and the latter is professional. Are you paid by Siobhan Fahey or her management, or do you do this as a fan? Your comment about paying for hosting "on behalf of" Fahey is a bit confusing. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Is it possible to link to a statement from the artiste(s) (management) saying the website is the sole legal online representative of said artiste(s). This might be linked from the artistes record label or management website. It should also note where editorial control is exercised, and by whom. Another avenue, likely preferred by WP, would be if an independent source noted that the site was the official online representation of the subject(s). That said, I would draw your attention to thebansheesandothercreatures, whose address has recently appeared on releases by Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Creatures, and Siouxsie Sioux and is linked from their official sites and record label websites, and that of Steven Severin. Despite this "recognition" (and the accuracy of its content) it remains a fan site since the editor - who owns the site - is independent of the artists; it is one of the acknowledged "official" fansites. Under the circumstances, clarification of the status of "your" website is required before WP can describe it as being that of the subjects. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:51, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes the site is linked on the bands record label web site http://www.cargorecords.co.uk/artist/5136 Thanks, Antmarkhemingway (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay. What about statements to the effect that the site is legally the official website from Fahey, her management or record label, or an independent third party to that effect, and whether you are acting on behalf of or are an employee of the artist or their record label? I would draw your attention to the earlier comments also from HU12 and EyeSerene regarding your interaction with other editors and inappropriate "promoting" of the website. Even if the website is removed from the blacklist, there would need to be an improvement in your behaviour. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that Cargo Records is a 'distributor of independant records labels" , and not the artist's label. XinJeisan (talk) 23:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. but that just came with the fustration. it isnt hugely important that the site is listed here, but i just think it looks better, as most other artists have their sites linked. I will refrain from editing the Siobhan Fahey page and Shakespears sister page, and will let whoever ad it Antmarkhemingway (talk) 23:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC).

I think that might be helpful. It's edits like this that sparked my concern; it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Misplaced Pages is for and casts doubt on your motives for editing the article. Per WP:ELNO criterion 1, we only need include external links that add content beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. That's deliberately a very high bar; if the external site's content is already covered by the article (perhaps as a source for the content), we don't need to include it as a separate external link as it adds no extra value. Exceptions are offsite content that we can't host for whatever reason (for example, the original text of a document that's discussed in an article but that can't be quoted in full without breaching someone's copyright). Like LHvU I have some reservations about using the site as a source, but that's another discussion. EyeSerene 11:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

But couldn't we at least have the site listed on the URL of Siobhan Fahey's profile. Its only fair i think. Bananarama's website doesnt offer any further information thats on their wikipedia and their site is on here, even their youtube and myspace are listed! http://en.wikipedia.org/Bananarama I was told that youtubes and myspaces were not allowed, so thats is why i took all this a persoanl dig at the band, because it seemed Siobhan's former band was allowed their site, youtube, myspace etc. but not her, This wa my issue all along. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 15:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• If Antmarkhemingway withdraws from editing the article I think there should be no reason to have the site unblacklisted and placed in the appropriate place in the article. As long as it is not being used or promoted as a reliable source then I feel it may well be included. Does anybody know how to do the unblacklist thingy? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I will certainly withdraw from editing the article. I would just be very happy to see the site in the URL section of Siobhan Fahey and Shakespears Sister's profile pages if possible as they are very reliable sources. All information on SS.co.uk is accurate and approved by Siobhan (afterall, she did write the bio), I just thought it would be fair, since, as stated above, Misplaced Pages actually has MORE information on Bananarama than their official site does itself, in my honest opinion, and their site and youtube channels are listed. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 22:22, 5 February 2010 (UTC) And I also would like to appologuise for past behaviour, and i feel like i have learnt a lot about Misplaced Pages from the experience, and appreciate it much more. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• Have we been able to reach a decission on this matter? Please let me know Antmarkhemingway (talk) 23:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC).

• • This issue was archived but it has not yet been resolved. Is the site going to unblacklisted? Sorry for puuting this topic back here if i wasnt suppose to Antmarkhemingway (talk) 12:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC). Moved here to preserve chronological order. EyeSerene 12:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The sites involved (from the blacklist) are:

• jacquieoh.com
• shakespearssister.co.uk
• facebook.com/ShakespearsSisterOfficial
• bananaramafanclub.freehostking.com

We appear to have some weak consensus that the first two can be removed - anyone else care to comment? EyeSerene 12:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy enough for the first two to be taken off the blacklist - they could prove useful for a reader of the article. The latter two I feel fall under WP:NOTLINK. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• Hi, the latter two are not needed. As I have learned, Facebook pages are not allowed, official or not, am I correct? So that one is ok. The Bananaramafanclub can go, im not sure if that even exists anymore, it was a site i uploaded on behalf of a fan who used to run a fan service, and is not official Antmarkhemingway (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC).

I'd suggest to remove the first two, and add them to their own pages here (and not anywhere else). Antmarkhemingway, you might want to have a look at WP:OTHERLINKS/WP:WAX (that other links are somewhere else, is not a reason to include yours, it might be a reason to remove the other, but it may also be that the others are discussed and deemed appropriate), and consider that we do not have to link, even to thé official site. We link as we assert that it gives more information. Unwillingness to discuss before inclusion, or other attempts to push a link may indeed lead to (re-)blacklisting, especially when the pushy editor has a conflict of interest regarding the subject.

Shall I go on an remove them from the blacklist? --Dirk Beetstra 14:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, it seems we agree that the first two should be removed. I don't mind doing it, but since you've offered, Dirk... :) EyeSerene 17:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, you have been most helpful. Both sites do offer further information, such as latest events and extensive biographies. The Shakespears Sister site would be best added to both Siobhan Fahey http://en.wikipedia.org/Siobhan_Fahey and Shakespears sister http://en.wikipedia.org/Shakespears_Sister pages, as Shakespears Sister is pretty much now Siobhan Fahey, and the site is mainly based on her, but former band member(s) are breifly included. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC).

Apparently Dirk has gone offline, so I've updated the spam blacklist myself. Since you've undertaken not to edit them, I'll also add the sites to the articles. Other editors may have different ideas and there's no guarantee they'll stay in the articles forever - if they do get removed again, by all means point the editors concerned to this thread (which will be in the ANI archives), but please don't add them back in yourself :) All the best, EyeSerene 18:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not an administrator, but I didn't realize that any consensus was reached about the .jaquieoh website. I didn't originally bring this to ANI to discuss whether blacklisting the websites was a good idea or not -- which was never directly discussed nor did Antmarkhemingway copy the entire discussion over when he was looking for a decision to be made in his favor. But my complaint towards Antmarkhemingway's behavior changed to a discussion about whether the decision to blacklist was correct.

I stated if the SS site was taken off the blacklist, I would think that would be okay, as long as it was not used as a source for the article. However, if there was any discussion about whitelisting the jaquieoh site, I would have disagreed strongly. I already mentioned why The Jacquie O'Sullivan article itself is unsourced -- it is quite difficult to find reliable sources about her -- I've tried. (You can see the work I have done on Shakespears Sister and Siobhan Fahey, for example here, here, (this last edit was actually removed here by someone trying to put back in the ss website, even though I had properly sourced the material with reliable sources), here, and here. So, I haven't just spent my time removing the one site, I actively worked to improve the articles in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. However, there is not a reliable source that states Jacquie O'Sullivan was a casting director at all. And, while on Talk:Jacquie O'Sullivan he seemed to admit that this wasn't accurate (see this diff), here he states that not only was O'Sullivan a casting director, but that she has worked for Lee Dennison So, putting an website that in the past has put up incorrect/unverifiable information doesn't seem right to me. Also, also the diffs here and here seem to contradict what he said here about what IP he uses.

I just wanted to put this here in the record so people realize why these websites were blacklisted and why originally I wanted to bring this to the community's attention.XinJeisan (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you may be talking about two separate issues. The first is including the sites on the articles in question, which seems to have been reasonably settled. With my editor's hat on I see no harm in listing them in the External links section, but would not recommend including them in the infobox; although they are clearly approved of by the artists, I don't believe they are 'official' in the sense most of us might use the word (as in directly paid for by the artists or operated/owned by paid representatives). The second is using them as source material for the article content; again with my editor's hat on I think this is more problematic. They may be mostly accurate, but as Antmarkhemingway indicated above they are not necessarily secondary sources and should be treated with caution. EyeSerene 09:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I was indeed offline by that time, thanks EyeSerene for the removal.

The reason to blacklist was the pushing behaviour, abuse of the link, and the surrounding behaviour of the spammers. I agree that this seems more a 'band approved fan-site' than the official band site, and should be treated as such.

I would say that we need to keep an eye on this one and revisit its use after this moment. I think/hope Antmarkhemingway has gotten the message that we include links after consensus and discussion, and I hope that we will see use of the link, and not abuse. De-blacklisting a link has in common with blacklisting that neither have to be permanent. Regarding Jacquie O'Sullivan, I would say, see if it can be sourced, if they is notable enough, etc. If that fails, WP:AFD might be worth to see if something comes up. When the article would be deleted, then there would simply be no use for the link, but as long as there is no abuse, we don't need to re-blacklist. --Dirk Beetstra 09:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Those are very much my thoughts too. Given Antmarkhemingway's assurances, I believe the underlying reason for keeping the sites blacklisted has been addressed. I'll keep the articles watchlisted though. The lack of sourcing on Jacquie O'Sullivan is a concern, especially with WP:BLP being enforced increasingly strictly. Suitable sources should exist - she was in one of the most successful bands of the time. I assume we're OK with Antmarkhemingway participating constructively on the article talk-pages per WP:TALK? They obviously know the subjects, so might be of help in locating reliable sources. EyeSerene 10:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• I am more than happy to help in anyway in the future, but will leave links to the powers that be! I am not paid for Jacquie O'Sullivan/Slippry Feet's web site, and yes I guess its pretty much an approved fan site if you look at it from that angel, and this is simply due tot the fact jacquie has gone quiet and there is no news to update. If she records music again one day, then the site will be updated appropriately. Jacquie did participate in the site during its first few months, but she got busy and Paul Simper (former band mate, Slippry Feet) finished it off with me. A Siobhan fahey's site is slightly different, it is her represensative website, which I am paid for, BUT, i make the initial payment and then reinbursed later... this is why the i am the registered owner, i know its not ideal, but thats just the way things turned out. Again, thank you for your understanding, and I hope to work with you on this in future, not against you! Also can I just varify that I never changed my IP address. Antmarkhemingway (talk) 10:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC).

I'm glad we've managed to hammer out a positive solution between us, which was due in large part to your cooperation - so thank you for that. Regarding the IP addresses, I accept that they were not yours. As you suggest, most likely they came from your forum members; it's not unusual that off-Misplaced Pages groups organise when they believe we're being unfair to their interests. I hope we've demonstrated that such activity is counter productive and the best results come from collegiate collaboration and consensus-building. I also hope XinJeisan's concerns have been addressed as far as we can; sourcing problems are a content issue and beyond the remit of this board (though of course if other difficulties reoccur XinJeisan should bring them back to ANI). Suggestions for resolving content disputes can be found at WP:DR and the reliable sources noticeboard may also be of help. All the best, EyeSerene 18:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes im very happy we have resolved this and i hope there is no bad feelings between me and Xinjeisan! they were doing there job. I do understand that some of those IPS belong to me, as im sure if anyone checks with an IP expert of some kind, IPs do changed themselves (the last digits), depending on the browsing session etc. i would never sit and intentionally change my address. IPs can sometimes give themselves new idnetities while browsing certain sites for protection if you have that kind of antiviral software. So maybe this could explain a few IPs on my name? Anyways, I am glad all is resolved and i will be happy to help further in the future Antmarkhemingway (talk) 21:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC).

Continued incivility after a request to stop

User:Parrot of Doom has been generally uncivil today and failed or even mocked requests to improve his behaviour, He started off edit warring over an unfree picture in the nick griffen article with User_talk:J_Milburn after three reverts his actions culminated in this edit with the edit summary in capitals of "CLEAR THE FUCK OFF" , I left him a polite civility note, to which he replied, "thanks but I'm not interested in civility warnings" he then again was uncivil on a public talkpage, saying on the talkpage of Griffin , "What the fuck is it with people today". I informed him again that he was being uncivil and requested him to stop, he replied that "Clearly you didn't bother reading my response to your civility warning. Get it into your head - I will use whatever language I feel is appropriate." and with the edit summary of " civility bollocks" followed up with the edit summary of "indent reply about civility bollocks" , Users should not have to suffer this level of insulting commentary, the editor in question appears to believe that he can speak derogatory to other users, this is upsetting to some editors and should not be ignored. Off2riorob (talk) 16:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, you've managed to create silly wikidrama at 3 pages now. Starved of attention today are we? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Not constructive. Please refactor or someone else will do so for you. → ROUX ₪ 16:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This editor is obviously out for wikidrama and constructive or not it should be pointed out, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that there is an alternate side to his little story above. His idea of incivility is when someone else uses language that he doesn't approve of. Then to go running to ANI to 'report' it is, in my opinion, a perfect example of creating a wikidrama. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Foul language isn't acceptable, particularly if another editor requested it to be stopped. Parrot needs to cool it, less administrators give him an un-voluntary break. GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"Foul" language is not against policy, neither is it, in itself, uncivil. A request is, by definition, an invitation for a refusal. PoD, while I agree should chill a bit, has every right to use whatever language he chooses to convey whatever it is he is attempting to convey. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but that's a total misuse of the edit summary. Getting into a revert war that devolves into "fuck off" or even "go away" comments is not acceptable on any level. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 01:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

What you (GoodDay) call "foul language" may not be what Parrot of Doom would call "foul language, or indeed what I would call "foul language". It was certainly robust language, but that's not quite the same thing where I come from. The only incivility here is too many editors attempting to impose their prissy notions of civility on others, with threats and bullying if necessary. Time it stopped. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The irony of Roux, one of the rudest and most abusive of editors on this site, turning up to criticise another editor for incivility is mind-boggling. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones Malleus. Chillum 17:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

And yet you're blind to your own incvility and abuse. Irony enough for everyone, it seems. So, how about you try this for a change, Malleus? Stop being a fucking dick. I know, I know, it's pretty much impossible for you. But you sit there and continually browbeat others while screaming at the top of your lungs for people to be nice to you. It would also behoove you to note that I didn't criticise anyone for incivility--I pointed out that his comment was unconstructive. But then, detail was never exactly your strong suit, now was it? Certainly not when piddly little things like 'facts' would get in the way of you getting your digs in. Grow the fuck up and start acting like an adult. Jesus. → ROUX ₪ 17:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This is your only warning, Malleus and Roux; disengage from each other. This isn't about you, and every civility thread on ANI is not a reason for you to continue your feud. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Warn away, but you cannot suppress the truth that Roux is just as guilty of what he's complaining about with this edit summary. Why not address that issue instead of throwing your weight around? --Malleus Fatuorum 17:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

All right, you have now acknowledged the warning, continue with the behaviour and you'll get a block. That goes with Roux as well. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 01:18, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Beg your pardon? Malleus shows up out of nowhere to attack me, and I'm being warned? Blame the victim, nice. Plus ca change.. → ROUX ₪ 17:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm well aware, and I'm telling you to be the better man here and leave it at that. Don't contribute to the problem. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

And let him--again--simply spout whatever crap he wants? Here's the thing that you lot don't seem to understand.. you keep telling him to stop, you keep doing nothing about it, and therefore you keep enabling and encouraging him to be ever-more-abusive to everyone on this site. → ROUX ₪ 17:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It looks like some imbalance here. malleus stops and gets blocked. Roux continues but doesn't get blocked. Looks like that's an unbalanced answer to the problem. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to point out, if PoD had respected the request to cool it, at the public talkpage, he wouldn't have been reported. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) And why exactly should the request have been granted? "Do as I ask or I'll report you"? To me that rather smacks of bullying and threats. How about PoD's right to use whatever language he deems appropriate for getting his point across? This is a rather typical ploy of the 'civility police' mentality around here. Threats and wikidrama. Now that sounds far more uncivil than the release of an F-bomb. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Think about it this way, Fred. Do you think others are more or less likely to take PoD seriously and engage with him in a calm manner if he's throwing around profanity? If PoD cannot express his displeasure or disagreement with an action without resorting to "an F-bomb", it's a lack of vocabulary or imagination on his part, and it only causes discussion to decay. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

An F-bomb is not an example of lack of vocabulary. In fact many times it is the perfect word to get across certain feelings. In my veiw this makes it the perfect use of vocabulary. It is not my decision on what allows PoD to be taken seriously, primarily because I don't believe that the use of epithets devalues what a person is saying. Your mileage obviously varies. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The following article may be of some interest:

• Wales, Jimmy (December 29, 2009). "Keep a Civil Cybertongue: Rude and abusive online behavior should not be met with silence". The Wall Street Journal. Dow Jones & Company, Inc. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Cheers, Cirt (talk) 17:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

A right to use foul language? there's no such thing as rights here. At Misplaced Pages, we have privillages. GoodDay (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

By those rules there is no right to the expectation that someone is going to respect one's own view of the world and what languages we expect others to use. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

One's own views on civility becomes irrelevant, when one is blocked for incivility. GoodDay (talk) 17:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

And therein lies the problem. There is not one person on Misplaced Pages that can define exactly what incivility actually is, yet strangely lots of people think they know and use their own interpretation to go ahead and block someone based purely on subjective opinion. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• I would expect to be blocked if I spoke to editors in the same way, especially if I had been politely requested to be more civil, my request was mocked, and the behavior repeated, good faith editors are repelled by this level of incivility and should not have to be addressed in this manner. Off2riorob (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Your expectations have no greater sway than PoD's right to use language he deems appropriate. Also your interpretation of "uncivil" holds no greater sway than his. Who are you to decide what is or isn't uncivil? Good faith editors are also repelled by the immature, run to mummy approach that is frequently used by the final arbiters of what should be civil and what shouldn't be. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody has a right on Misplaced Pages, we've privillages. IMHO, if one's want to spourt off on his/her pesonal page? fine. But, not on public pages, when requested not to. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

David, you should leave block notices on their pages. I know they're aware, but in the interest of the probable unblock requests... Tan | 39 17:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I left them in other tabs and forgot to save. Appended, thanks for the reminder. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Here you go on about lack of rights again. That lack of right also applies to peoples' expectancy of what they can request and their right to have that request complied with. It is after all a request and not an instruction. The bedrock of WP is that it isn't censored. You cannot have a non-censored encyclopaedia whilst simultaneously censoring its editors behind the scenes. But back to the point, the use of off-colour language is not in and of itself uncivil. Off2riorob has no right or "privilege" to decide that it is all on his own. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It's all up to the community, in the end (as we're a collaborative project). GoodDay (talk) 17:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"The bedrock of WP is that it's uncensored"? Strong statement; it's a facet of the project but I'd hardly call it the bedrock. Tan | 39 17:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, do we not -censure- people from making threats? legal, physical etc etc (which hasn't been the case here). GoodDay (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

in any case, it's the articles that are not censored DGG ( talk ) 17:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the boilerplate answer, but please re-read exactly what I said. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)The implied threat was "swear in front of me and I'll tell teacher". I have no idea what Off2riorob expected to get from this report other than a dose of wikidrama. This he seems to have got in spades. two people blocked (none of them being PoD). This has all the hallmarks of a troll, or at the very least a WP equivalent of dropping a stink bomb before shutting the door. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly higher up the ladder (or deeper in the foundation as it were) that, say for example, errr truth. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

My advice to Off2 would've been 'ignore' Parrot 'until' he agreed to muzzle the foul language. GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

IMO it is not OK to talk to other editors in this manner at all, if you do lose your cool, OK, we are adults, in that case you calm down and apologize, you do not assert that you will say whatever you feel is appropriate and repeat the comment.As DDG says, it is the articles that are uncensored, not the talk pages and the edit summaries. Off2riorob (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

As your internet acronym succinctly puts it, it is your opinion which has no greater precedence than PoDs. Where he and I come from it is perfectly acceptable to talk that way. Who are you to say that it isn't? If you don't like it, then simply ignore it. Running to mummy ANI will merely increase the signal-to-noise ratio and will cause far more disruption than any f-bomb ever could. Personally I think you were in the wrong for over-dramatising it. So far I've heard no complaint that your ears are bleeding or you were in some way harmed or mentally disturbed by anything PoD said to you? As you yourself stated, you are an adult. Adults don't go running to mummy. They just ignore what they don't like, or at least the ones round here do. This isn't a restaurant serving tough, under-done steak. That is the place to complain to the chef. In this instance you aren't going to get you way, or get a replacement steak. he can't unsay it, he isn't likely to come over to your view any time soon. So what is it you think you've achieved today, other than wasting a lot of people's valuable time with this discussion? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps it is ok on wikipedia to speak to editors in this way, if that is so please point that out to me. Off2riorob (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

There are several issues here, and in each case PoD, is on the right side. Firstly, take the description in the first paragraph where the disputed image is described as nonfree- this is a mere interpretation of a borderline case- a POV. Secondly, the article is about an individual with a particularly nasty track record, it is politically naive to believe you can sit on the fence- PoD is correct to verify a fact with a reference in this case a visual one. Thirdly, the heinous crime here is to suggest that Off2riorob intervention I left him a polite civility note,,was civil- no, it was gross provocation- delivered with Blairite sanctity. To which PoD politely replied:"thanks but I'm not interested in civility warnings" Fourthly, there is the issue of language register. Most of the time it is vaguely amusing that, words that 'kids on the street of Collyhurst and Ancoats use as punctuation marks, cause offence in other parts of the globe. On the Gamesley Estate, a lad bumped into me and said Ah f--k mate, I dinna see ya.- and that translate into I am sorry friend, I didn't see you. In parts of South London, saying Woof in the wrong context is grossly offensive- (It suggests the recipients mother is a dog). It is sad when editors take this seriously and get precious about others using a register they personally don't subscribe too. Finally, is the issue of timewasting. We have FAs to write- and being diverted from that central task, and dragging editors away from the name space is totally counter productive.--ClemRutter (talk) 17:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Shall we consider this civility report closed? GoodDay (talk) 19:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No, let it carry on, its fucking hilarious. Parrot of Doom 19:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think this illustrates why some react badly. There is no reason that I can see for parrot to say (well write) a word that some find offensive. As it is writen (and not spoken in the heat of argument) it is clarly premeditated (and as such presumably serves a function, I will not presume to assume what that might be).Slatersteven (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Point of view I guess. Some people presume that when the word "fuck" is used, its designed to offend. I find that laughable, they almost have my pity. Parrot of Doom 21:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The report should be closed, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 21:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Before it's closed, I would like to add something. Last night, I tried but gave up after numerous edit conflicts. Ok, while I would never support a block against an editor who lets rip with the odd f or c word in a moment of anger or sheer frustration (an admonitory tut-tut is sufficient, IMO), I feel that unrestrained usage of profanity should never become the norm here as it would create an ugly atmosphere of hostility, and talk pages would become battlegrounds for tit-for-tat profanity wars. Not exactly the scholarly image an encyclopedia strives for. The liberal use of profanity would also give free rein to those editors who wish to indimidate others through a contrived hard man, bad-ass Sgt. Bob Barnes stance as well as those who are just having a bad hair day and rebut a polite request with a snarling f..k off. This is not prissiness ot latent puritanism on my part, but rather practical advice to those of us here who do not wish to see Misplaced Pages turn into a popular hangout joint for bored kids who would use it merely to post their favourite swear words.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Bravo Fred, i've never seen anyone successfully troll AN/I before. As for the rest of you. Lets stay on topic here. Choice of words and what each person considers to be offensive is more or less irrelevant. It's an issue of civility. Nefariousski (talk) 22:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Hijacked account

When a useful editor's edits turn into blatant vandalism, I tend to suspect the account has been hijacked. Such is the case here. However, I don't recall the procedure (or know where to look) for handling this type of problem. To prevent further abuse of our articles - and of the editor's account, I've gone ahead and indef-blocked the account. However, I invite anyone with experience in this type of problem to correct or supplement my actions - and to post a note on my talk page pointing out the correct process. Thanks. Rklawton (talk) 06:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Look farther up the page - there was a similar case recently, for a user named DC or something. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey Bugs - been awhile. Thanks for the heads up. Looks like I've taken all the right steps. I don't think check user is necessary since the edits are significantly out of character and not on any previously edited article. Hopefully we hear back from him via e-mail. 'till then, we're protected. Rklawton (talk) 06:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Specifically, this: I guess you figured that out. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There should probably be a help or guideline for admins as to the best way to handle compromised accounts, but I think that the procedure is generally that we indef-block until receiving an email from the address that originally registered the account. That's what happened with the DC incident that Bugs was talking about. I'm not sure who has access to email info for an account; crats? ArbCom? Oversight? And it would have to be the email account used prior to when the account was compromised, because the new "owner" of the account could change the associated email address to their own. -- Atama頭 18:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, no usergroup has access to users' email-addresses. That's what the committed identity system is for. ╟─TreasuryTag►Captain-Regent─╢ 18:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

DC had conveniently listed their email address on their edit notice when they were still in control. Not sure if we will be so fortunate this time. –xeno 18:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I sent them an email through the email user function requesting an explanation. I'll post any response I get here. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Still no response. Hijack seems likely. Will advise. Throwaway85 (talk) 02:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Mass change to formatting style

For the past 24 hours I have been constantly finding myself readding quotation marks to the formatting of ref names on University of Miami (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) because Racepacket (talk · contribs) appears to have an off-site copy of the article text that he has removed all of these from. He has told me that he prefers to not use them because they are not entirely necessary unless the name parameter uses spaces, punctuation, or non-ASCII characters.

I do not think that this requires removing every single instance as he has done in the following diffs which include misleading edit summaries: , , , .

I have brought this up to Racepacket on his talk page as seen here where I also ask him to stop removing the carriage return between the infobox and the lead paragraph (, , , ): User talk:Racepacket#Carriage return. He does not seem to care, or he has not been answering me at all because he keeps making these edits long after I began the discussion on his talk page.

Racepacket has begun accusing me of stalling improvements to the page because he has it set in his mind that there is an all important deadline (he assumes there is one because of a pending GA review), and has accused me of doing harm to the page because of a single mistake (where he corrects a + to an = and then says I harmed the page because I undid the edit because it was one where he removed all the quotation marks) and that I am keeping him up by asking him to add two more keystrokes when he adds content.

I know he is improving the page. I know it is good that he wants it to be considered a good article and probably eventually a featured article. I just do not think it is appropriate that he reformats the entire article just because he does not want to add two instances of " whenever he adds a reference.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In the time that I was writing this, he did it again.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Counterview: As indicated in a prior ANI, User:Ryulong is doing everything possible to see that the article University of Miami fails its GA review. We have a limited period of time to respond to the review while it is on hold. In response to the review, I split off University of Miami School of Business Administration, and three times Ryulong merged it back. After repeated requests, he finally left the article in place and started an AfD, where the vote is going toward keeping the article. Second, the review asked that we expand the Research section, and User:Ryulong has been actively moving (to other articles) or deleting content which I have added to that section. (See, Talk:University of Miami#Research) Third, the review asked that we find sources independent of UM to meet WP:V They suggest that at least half of the sources be to something not on the UM website. User:Ryulong has been finding excuses to move the non-UM sources to other articles and where several sources can support a remaining sentence, he insists on using the one from the UM website. What prompted his current complaint is that I do not use unnecessary quote marks around the name parameter value in <ref> tags. He goes backs and adds them. He has also changed the = symbol to the + symbol in cite templates which cause values to not be displayed. Because I don't have time to go through each citation repeatedly to check for such nonsense, I have asked him to stop. He then harrasses me with endless discussion over the quote mark issue which has absolutely nothing to do with how the article will be displayed on the page. He goes so far as to reformat my responses to him on my own talk page, causing more interruptions to my work.

Here is someone who has not made substantive additions to the article for months, wasting time in our efforts to address the review in a limited time period. An administrator's intervention is needed to stop User:Ryulong from wasting valuable time by doing everything possible to prevent the article from passing its GA review. Racepacket (talk) 07:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is no such thing as a limited time period on Misplaced Pages. No comment otherwise. → ROUX ₪ 07:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

And again, here you come accusing me of bad faith and bringing up things that are so minor and not intentional just to make me look bad. I am not seeking to prevent University of Miami from being promoted to good article status. I merged and then listed a page for WP:AFD that I did not think was notable for inclusion. I moved references that had nothing to do with the article to an article they were related to. I did not mean to change any = to any + in any edit; it was an unintentional change from an undo I performed on your edits regarding the reason I brought up this thread. All I have been doing to your talk page is change * to : because no one uses * in responses to people. If anything, your mass removal of the quotation marks is not recommended.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is no such thing as a limited time period on Misplaced Pages. No comment otherwise. → ROUX ₪ 07:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

<ref name="fn"> versus <ref name=fn>. Lamest edit war ever. Hesperian 07:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm aware. I have asked him to not remove them, as well as a single line break, but based on an off-site copy he is keeping and the fact that he replaces the text of the article wholesale whenever he adds a new edit, I believe that this is an issue to be brought up here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

pls guys clam down on the talk page ...you will notice noone has answered..this can only mean people are looking deep into what is going on..so guys pls lets turn down the YELLING .. just give admin time to look things over ..both should not edit the article until we come up with a solution to your problem, since you guys cant solve it yourselves... Buzzzsherman (talk) 07:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Buzzzsherman you have no idea what you are talking about so if you would not mind, do not get involved with disputes if you do not know of a proper way to solve them.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh, Buzz is completely correct. Back off and let people investigate. → ROUX ₪ 07:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I was confused because he copied over other people's comments in the process of adding his comment.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• (EC)I agree with Roux. How can I get back to looking for sources? It is 2:30 a.m. and this ANI is an incredible waste of everyone's time, as is the petty harrassment over the quote marks and whether I am allowed to format the comments which I leave on my own talk page with a bullet. Racepacket (talk) 07:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC) When I tried to add it where I first submitted it, ] is trying to start another edit war over the order in which our comments appear below Roux's. diff

For the quotation marks there is this: Misplaced Pages:Footnotes#Caution on converting citation styles. I am not going to bother with the bullet marks or anything similar.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This is WP:LAME. Nobody cares (or, at least, nobody should care) about minor coding details that make absolutely no difference in the formatted article. If it affects the GA review then something is seriously wrong with the GA process. Both of you, stop arguing, stop worrying about how each other's refs are coded, stop asking for admins to interced in your petty disputes, and get back to doing something constructive. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I know it is lame, but I have asked him to stop changing the coding style entirely but he just ignores me and has been accusing me of preventing the article from being promoted. Certainly the fact that the quotation marks are or are not there should not affect his ability to edit the page. He should not change them in every edit nor should he replace the text of the article wholesale with a version he has copied off of site because he does not want to use the quotation marks or a single line break at the lead of the article.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• User:Ryulong is misquoting Misplaced Pages:Footnotes#Caution on converting citation styles which address converting articles from {{ref}} to <ref>. The principle applies however as common sense, which Ryulong is ignoring. I am the one doing the research and adding the references, and User:Ryulong is the one who goes back and tries to confusing things by editing the footnotes which I create by adding quotes and even a + where I placed a =. This is a lot of work -- the GA Review has asked us to add a publisher parameter to each footnote and to find alternatives to the UM website references. If he does not want to help make the article meet WP:V standards, then he should stand back and let others get the required work done. Racepacket (talk) 07:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Should there be a difference? And would you stop bringing up that stupid + to = thing? It was not intentional as I have been telling you for the past 2 hours. And I am not trying to sabotage a Good Article Promotion. Stop accusing me of things.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• The fact that you have wasted the last two hours of my life with this quote mark nonsense and this ANI speaks mountains as to your intentions. It is now 3:11 a.m. and I have not been able to spend any substantial time since midnight finding new sources. Please stop this behavior. Racepacket (talk) 08:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Stop accusing me of keeping you awake and intending to cause the GAR to fail. I've removed the fucking quotation marks at this point because it's obvious you are going to keep using your .txt copy of the page's text. I'm just tired of you thinking I'm your foe in this matter.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Interim resolution except for Daedalus969

I am please to announce that the only two users involved in this dispute myself and Ryulong have agreed to proceed without quote marks for now. Once that was established, I uploaded two more references (again without the quote marks) only to discover that after Ryulong and I have reached our agreement, User:Daedalus969 who has had no prior role in this matter has reverted the article to a state that used quote marks. He then reverted my change and added one of them back into the article with quote marks. He has also started a parallel proceeding at AN3 It is difficult to see how his edits were made in good faith. As best I can determine, they don't have a visible impact on the article (unless he accidentally picked up one of Ryulong's stray + symbols.) I have left messages on his talk page to no avail. Racepacket (talk) 09:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not agree to anything. I just know that you are going to constantly refer to your offline copy that you've removed all of the quotation marks from because you can't trust the online copy because of this +/= issue that you keep referring to. There are no such items in the text now. Just copy that and deal with the lack or existance of quotation marks. Maybe you shouldn't modify articles by using an oldid of an article's content and just add references to sections as you go through them like normal editors instead of making the formatting of the article your preferred version every single fucking time.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry I misunderstood you. I thought that we had agreed to proceed without quotes for now. By the way, I don't use any javascript editors, which is perhaps why I am locked out on these edit conficlts. However, I don't see how the invisible differences between the two files can constitute edit warring. And I don't see how Daedalus' action is consistent with WP:POINT - sure he managed to make invisible changes to the document and he certainly managed to confuse me and steal another hour and a half from my life. I have to be at work in 3 and a half hours, and we have many more footnotes to process. This entire invisible quote stunt is unforgiveable and will go down as one of the sillier episodes in Misplaced Pages lore. Racepacket (talk) 10:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, it doesn't matter whether there are quotation marks in references or not. It makes no difference whatsoever. Why do you guys even care? --Conti|✉ 11:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that the quotation marks don't affect the article at all. I was worried about more sneaking in changes of = to +, which prompted me to work from a trusted copy. Which prompted Daedalus to start an invisible, artificial self-proclaimed "edit war" regarding changes nobody including me could see or be aware of. This is a clear case of WP:OWNership and need for attention distracting us from the task of addressing the problems noted by the GA review. A series of experienced editors with no connection to the University of Miami have pointed out WP:BOOSTER and WP:V problems with UM articles, and people need to roll up their sleeves and address them. Racepacket (talk) 14:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, their tag teaming results in perhaps unintended, substantive changes. In diff Daedalus deletes two footnotes. In the next edit, he only adds just one back in. And then Ryulong comes along and deletes the ref name that was common to both footnotes. Daedalus does not explain why he deleted the second footnote. Racepacket (talk) 15:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Clarification - the reason why I care is that each time Ryulong goes through and edits the article (perhaps just adding invisibile, optional quotation marks or perhaps changing a = to a +) I have to go through all of his changes to check his work and that is very time consuming when we are under a deadline. That is why I started using a copy of the article so that I could keep on going with the business of adding the requested footnotes. But I am willing to stop working from the second copy if Ryulong stops playing these distracting games. Racepacket (talk) 15:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest you either stop using the second copy, or otherwise make sure you're not reverting any intermediate edits when you save your changes. It's a wiki. Other people will be editing the page besides you. Jafeluv (talk) 16:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have been careful, but there are so many "invisible" changes in Ryulong's edits that it is hard to spot his = to + change, or Daedalus969 dropping one of the two footnotes. Whatever changes they are trying (or not trying) to make is camoflaged by the sea of quotation marks. Take a look at these diffs:

Daedalus' diffs

• no visible effect
• removed 2 footnotes
• added back the just one footnote without the unnecessary/optional quote marks

Ryulong's diffs

• added back the invisible quote marks
• added back the invisible quote marks
• added back the invisible quote marks
• note the change from = to + in the template parameter Racepacket (talk) 19:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Stop bringing up the =/+ thing. It was not intentional other than the revert that I performed to the rest of the page to deal with your overwriting with the off-site copy.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed interaction and topic ban pending outcome of mediation

Look, we've tried all this several times. You've both been told to not use ANI as a place to hash out your conflicts. You have both been told to seek mediation and dispute resolution. Neither of you has done so. You want admins to take control of the situation? I'm an admin, and I am proposing the following solution:

1. Racepacket and Ryulong are placed under a mutual interaction ban, with the sole exception that both are to participate in a mediation by filing a case at WP:MEDCOM or WP:MEDCAB to deal with these problems. Neither editor is to comment about the other, nor interact with the other, for the duration of the ban.
2. Both Racepacket and Ryulong are topic banned from editing the University of Miami article. Neither editor may make any further edits to that article at all. Furthermore, both are banned from seeking out articles the other has substantially edited for the purpose of antagonizing the other editor.
3. These restrictions are to be lifted upon satisfactory completion of mediation.

Seeking comments from other uninvolved editors and admins... Support? Opposition? --Jayron32 20:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. This whole issue is ridiculous. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 23:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

What? Topic banned from the article of my own alma mater? That is ridiculous. All that should come out of this is that Racepacket should not be using his offsite copy to overwrite everything on the UM article. I've kindly requested that he use the quotation marks and leave a single line break. All that has come out of this is that Racepacket has been constantly accusing me of trying to make the GA nomination fail. All that I have been telling him is that he should not be repeatedly sending this thing to GA review, and having taken it on his shoulders to force the article to become a good article. I am fine with the fact he is making the page better. I have just been asking him to add a few more key strokes when he writes, and adding them back once he's done overwriting the article without those keystrokes. There wouldn't be an edit war if he did not keep an offline copy that he overwrote everything with and there certainly wouldn't be a need to ban either of us from the page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

And I'd like to point out I tried a dispute resolution tactic. Nothing came of it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Look, the situation here is that this is a WP:LAME dispute, which has zero to do with content, and 100% to do with the personality conflict of the two combatants. The solution proposed is because admins aren't here to decide who is right. Frankly, the exact locus of this specific dispute, which is over the use of quotemarks in the ref name= tag is the most pointless edit war, maybe ever. It doesn't matter who is right, but given that you two have a several months long history, and neither side appears to want to back down, the only solution seems to be to end the problem by ending the problem. The U of M article will have someone else who is interested in it; I am unconcerned if the two of you no longer get to edit it. Indeed, given the absolute mess this dispute is causing, I am rather sure the article would be better off if it is not edited by either of you while you two are disputing. I recommend bilateral mediation, since an RFC is really about one user tattling on another, which is why it isn't helping solve the problem. When and if you two can figure out how to coexist and not generate these conflicts, THEN you can both go back to editing the article. But it is clear this conflict has nothing to do with this specific article, and everything to do with the conflict between the two of you. So, if the two of you can agree to mediation, work it out in MEDCAB or MEDCOM, and reach a mutually agreeable resolution to your conflicts, the article can be edited harmoniously. At this point, there is no reason to let the article continue to be edited by either of you, since neither of you is really trying to edit the article, you're both just trying to one-up the other. Lets solve the conflict FIRST, then we can get to the article LATER. That's my justification for proposing the above sanctions. It's no use claiming the "I'm more right so I shouldn't be sanctioned here" from either side; since as far as I can see neither side in the conflict can claim any moral high ground. So lets quit it with that, end the conflict, and worry about the article later. Mkay? --Jayron32 03:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I have proposed a solution to Racepacket such that he simply stops utilizing his off-site copy and edits the article as everyone else does. This would end the issue of his massive and unilateral reformatting of the article and the WP:LAME edit war that he and I have been involved with. However, he has not appeared to respond to this suggestion. If he manages to pay attention for five seconds and see my comment here and respond in a clear and coherent matter, I would be glad to have this stop. I'm not seeking any moral high ground. I'm just seeking that he see someone else's opinion instead of thinking he is the one who is the end-all be-all for the page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You're not hearing me. This isn't about these edits. You and Racepacket have been disputing for a long time. The conflict between you two is the problem; it has nothing at all to do with this batch of edits. If it was this one batch of edits, then we could solve it by facing that. Its about the fact that neither of you wishes to back down against the other over any issue. This is the merely today's one thing; if we did decide somehow that one of your versions of the article was favored, we'd just be back here tomorrow on a different problem or a different article. The problem is the conflict, not the article, so we need to end the conflict. Seek mediation so you can work together harmoniously, or stop working together. That's the only two solutions I see... --Jayron32 03:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Then I don't know what the fuck will resolve it. I just have been finding things that need fixing (the reference formatting), things that would be better suited to other articles (like this block of only references), or things that are trivial or poorly referenced and I feel should be removed () in his edits and he starts accusing me of sabotaging the GA review.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support the interaction ban and topic ban. Judging from WP:Requests for comment/Racepacket it's unlikely that calm will be restored any time soon at the University of Miami article. This dispute can't be allowed to continue on the admin noticeboards without action being taken. I'd withdraw my support if Ryulong and Racepacket would suddenly agree to work together harmoniously on the GA nomination, but that's not going to happen. The October, 2009 RFCU on Racepacket (opened by Ryulong) shows that the underlying dispute has been going on for many months. EdJohnston (talk) 01:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

1) Ryulong said, "Topic banned from the article of my own alma mater?" but shouldn't we have sensitivity for WP:COI and the need for objectivity necessary to avoid further WP:BOOSTER problems. We have a number of experienced users noting WP:V and WP:BOOSTER problems with the UM article, and these concerns need to be addressed. I have asked Ryulong and others to join me in this work, but so far I seem to be the only one working on finding reliable sources for the UM article. I don't OWN the UM article and want multiple other people working to improve it. In a prior dispute (involving the Miami Hurricanes football article), I suggested repeatedly that we use mediation, but Ryulong rejected the proposal. I am not sure what dispute there is to mediate -- the current goals are not being disputed: Misplaced Pages expects articles to meet WP:V; Misplaced Pages aspires to have all articles meet Good Article criteria; Misplaced Pages does not want copy and paste from the UM website. Somebody in authority will say whether quotes are mandatory or optional in <ref> tags -- from what I read it's currently optional. We need to get on with these goals. 3) I thought that Ryulong and I had worked the quotation marks issue out until Daedalus969 started his WP:POINT edits. I am willing to continue working on the UM article to meet the matters raised in the GA review. Racepacket (talk) 02:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. Aside from the ridiculous quotation marks business, are you saying that Ryulong has been POV pushing? out of interest, why are you removing the quotation marks? It's not normal practice, even if it doesn't cause an issue. Hopefully we'll never move to a strict XML format that requires the quotation marks, else we're going to have to put them back in again. Would it hurt you to use quotation marks? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 14:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Abstain - I am a bit involved, therefore I will not comment support or oppose.— Dædαlus 02:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support interaction ban and topic ban. (1 & 2) Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • So you do not support the lifting of the ban at any point? That would seem counterintuitive to the mediation seeking.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I would've only supported 3 if it's the community who comes back here and decides that the condition has been satisfied; I am not comfortable leaving that in the hands of either the parties, mediators, or any other committees. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support - I have been following this drama from afar for a bit and, while I tend to think one editor is a bit more "in the right" than the other in general, there to me at this point seems no possible amicable solution. This particular conflict -- that it even exists -- is strongly suggestive of that. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 22:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Unresolved – blocked a week

Resolved – Sanction enacted: Rama banned from using the di-replaceable fair use tag.

Resolved – Rollback bit restored.

Resolved – reverted -- zzuuzz 15:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I am going to go ahead and end this discussion now. It's moving around in circles and several admins have already chimed in and decided not to act on it at this time. I suggest that Tarc takes this as a civility warning and modifies his behavior in the future. As for many of the other points brought up, they are personal disputes... We are admins, not babysitters. While I understand that you are having a difficult time overcoming your disputes, keep in mind that we don't have any extra dispute resolution tools that you don't already possess. Trusilver 01:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

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}}

Resolved – Nothing for admins to do. -- Atama頭 21:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Just taking his last 50 edits into account (since February 4), User:Tarc has been fouling up talk pages with incivility and personal attacks against all sorts of editors. I know he's done this before, but this is what he's constantly doing right now to degrade the atmosphere of page after page -- it doesn't seem to be a reaction to anything in particular, and only the last two have anything to do with me:

• Violating WP:NPA, WP:CIV: Way to assume good faith there, sport. You're a credit to the project. Edit summary: not
• NPA, CIV: rv - Perhaps you should go write for the National Enquirer then, as that is where this tripe belongs. Has no bearing on the bio of Barney Frank A personal attack on User:ChildofMidnight (as Tarc removed information that a congressman expressed surprise that his lover was growing marijuana in the congressman's home)
• NPA, CIV, WP:TALK: Here's another diff but it's actually better to look at the context: Tarc immediately moves the discussion away from the topic at hand and toward commenting on the other editor in an uncivil way. Here's a recent version of that talk-page section: Tarc does mix in a little discussion of the issue, but it's larded up with so much bile that he can't expect the other party, or anyone else who disagrees with him, to concentrate any more on the issue at hand. His bile just eclipses it.
• NPA, CIV: In removing a polite request on his talk page for Tarc to be polite, the edit summary: the perpetrator does not get to troll the talk pages of others
• NPA, CIV, TALK: Wow. With that bit of bizarre grandstanding, you have pretty much torpedoed any chance of you ever being taken seriously on this page again, or any chance of other's giving your editing suggestions anything more than a polite dismissal. The edit summary: Arivaderchi
• TALK, WP:AGF: Oppose as "I don't like the current name, so we gotta change it to something" is an exercise in pointlessness. Also, any suggestion of "-gate" is a non-starter.

And here's where I come into the picture:

• CIV, TALK: Rejecting your points does not mean I ignored your points. You already waltzed this pedantic dance with Good Ol’factory earlier; we don't need to see Round 2, thanks. Edit summary: pedantry
• CIV: it would do you some good to learn that rather than make personal attacks and call other users trolls. In response to this comment from me in which I said he was trolling. Feel free to look at the context.

Eight examples from the last 50 edits over five days, victimizing various editors. He won't listen to me. Warn him, watch him, and if that doesn't work, block him. And whatever happens, you'll have this as a record if he gets into the same pattern again. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the diffs and concerns noted above are valid. Tarc's contribution history shows that he has been pursuing me and disrupting discussions where I'm involved by attempting to smear, bait, and provoke me into conflict. It's something I've tried to get some attention and assistance with for quite a while because it's the kind of harassing and intimidating behavior that degrades collegial work and disrupts encyclopedia building. I don't mind if someone calls me an ass once in a while (if the shoe fits...), but the persistence of this kind of hostile incivility is damaging to the project. And I've seen him do the same kind of thing with other editors, but I try to avoid engaging with Tarc because I don't want to inflame the problem further. I do think some interventions to correct this pattern of interaction would be useful. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Tarc

Tarc is not always Mr. Warmth. He's yelled at me a time or two also. But I don't see anything in the list that's any big deal. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The current version of Barney Frank won't even mention that his lover was arrested for growing marijuana in the congressman's own home after Tarc attacked the editor who put it there, both in the edit summary and then on the talk page, and reverted the edit. Never mind the content dispute: Why would a third editor want to get involved in that talk page discussion -- so that Tarc could abuse someone else? How is that not harmful to the encyclopedia? How is it no big deal to edit in a way that could goad other editors to respond uncivilly? If you don't mind a filthy editing environment, coddle him. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see anything "filthy" in what Tarc said, no "abuse", just strong opinions. Has Frank been accused of breaking any laws in connection with that alleged incident? If not, then the only reason for posting it is to take the National Inquirer approach to editing the article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Bugs. Nothing bad in the list of diffs. Indeed, most of them seem completely justified when taken into context. Seems like the genesis of this complaint was a content dispute, and another dispute over retaining a non-neutral, policy-violating category. Recommend the editors avoid each other. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right, it's primarily a content dispute. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

When it's something like six unrelated content disputes, how is it primarily a content dispute? In my own case, this isn't going to help me "win" the content dispute. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Focus on article content and ignore the sniping of other editors. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey has a long history with me. Our most recent interaction was here . I wonder, which of the four editors Tarc was denegrating should avoid him in the future? And this only goes back 50 edits. How many more editors should we be recommend avoid Tarc? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I can think of several editors I've had some history with. Rather than trying to control their behavior, generally I control things by staying away from articles they edit. There are a couple of gazillion articles in wikipedia, many of which need much more improvement than the Frank article does, for example. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Referring to editors as "slackjawed retards" seems a bit extreme. Yes, that comment may be from offsite, but it reflects over all attitude and opinion of other editors. How can we have a serious discussion when we know that is what someone thinks of many of us? Sincerely, --A Nobody 20:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

What it reflects is frustration with POV-pushers and scandalmongers, a frustration which I share, and which I found I was constantly fighting when defending the Obama and the Palin articles, and which is why I don't edit political articles any more, as it's not good for my blood pressure. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that Misplaced Pages Review is populated and run by slackjawed retards, it's also kind of funny. HalfShadow 20:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Everyone has their calling. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow. That's nothing compared to the kind of language I use to refer to other editors offsite. Tarc may use any language or say anything he pleases offsite without consequence. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

So you're saying that Tarc has actually been relatively restrained in his comments? If so, it's time for someone to wrap this one up as "no admin action needed". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Lulz, where to start.
  • Barber, formerly Noroton, has a bee in his bonnet over at a current DRV where his rather unique take on WP:USEFUL is not gaining any traction, which is apparently leading to a bit of frustration and lashing out. He has been repeatedly accusing other users of ignoring him, his points, or to quote Good Ol Factory, "You're free to interpret guidelines in your own way, but don't try to tell other users what they mean or how they must interpret the guideline in context.". It appears that this frustration has led him to dig into my editing history and snip out of context some very disparate quotes, from dealing with persistent SPAs at the Obama talk page, to thwarting ChildofMidnight's attempt to do to Barney Frank what he was sanctioned for doing to Barack Obama last year...to a Stone Temple Pilots discussion? Seriously, Barber, you're getting on my case for responding to another users extremely bad-faith assumption about other users who are on one side of a genre discussion? If you seriously have a beef here, wouldn't WP:WQA have bene a better first step than the morass of AN/I? That you came here first smacks more of "look at me!" than anything else.
  • ChildofMidnight has a rich history in AN/I, which can be perused via the archive box above. It is unfortunate that he still feels he is the victim of a massive cabal, ever since the Obama ArbCom. His counter-reports on others who file reports on him at AN/I or elsewhere have been met with universal rejection. The boy who cried "wolf!" to a T.
  • WR. What I may say or so there, or at ED or anywhere else, has no bearing here. For the record, I disagree with WR more than agree with it, from their providing a safe soapbox to the well-known stalker, harasser, and sock-master Joehazelton to their Think of the children whining about nekkidness in wikipedia articles. Tarc (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Addendum; the only one I would wish to retract would be the edit summary here, that was a bit too confrontational and hip-shooting. The others I am good with. Tarc (talk) 20:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Looks good to me. To borrow a line from a movie, it's "a bunch of rinky-dink tabloid garbage." Unless Frank has been charged with a crime, that story is irrelevant POV-pushing. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Agree with BB. Time to wrap this one up. Leave the content dispute for the disputants to settle and let's move on.--Wehwalt (talk)
        • Right. Tarc was perhaps ruder than I'd have been, but then I was brought up a very proper Bostonian and am never the least bit rude to anybody. No harm, no foul; de minimis non curat an/i. PhGustaf (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
          • Even when Bostonians say "Yankees suck!" they mean it in the best possible way. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Just one note as I see it. I fly pretty loose with civility at times myself, but Tarc is at least as incivil as User:GoRight, who is currently on a one strike then out civility probation. If this had been an WP:RFU and Tarc had been given a week off for the comments above, I would be upholding the block. I don't see any action that really needs to be taken as things stand right now, but I would definitely caution the editor to remember the adage: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Trusilver 21:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This discussion's been an an exercise in ignoring crucial points, distracting with irrelevant points and coddling. Tarc talks about content disputes as if all this happened on one or two pages. He's been acting like this at nearly every talk page he's been to for days. I had nothing to do with three quarters of the examples of his bad behavior listed above. Our "content dispute" is irrelevant, so why is it necessary to comment on it here? I looked into his edit history because I (correctly) guessed what I'd find there: more than one out of seven of his previous 50 edits was to disparage other editors. Not one, not two, not three, but five. No matter how many times Tarc responds with further attacks on me, that doesn't excuse it. It's a pattern. When it gets to be a pattern it's worth bringing up for review.

Tarc's response is to say I'm "lashing out", except that nothing I've done compares with his bad behavior. If I dislike being attacked, I guess that means I must have a bad motive in looking into and reporting his bad behavior. He goes on to attack ChildofMidnight, again, right on this page, when CoM did or said nothing to provoke the attack. He says the quotes were taken out of context, but he's blowing smoke: Context sometimes explains snapping at one or two people, but not five different, unconnected situations. And in each one, Tarc acted worse than the editors he was interacting with -- there's your context. And he hasn't shown where any "context" either justifies or minimizes his drumbeat of bad behavior. Should I have brought this elsewhere? I thought the WP:TALK violations would be outside the focus of WP:WQA, but I didn't look into it.

I'll consider Trusilver's comment as the warning I was looking for, and Atama's comment at the top, "Nothing for admins to do." as an example of not getting it. If Tarc continues trolling, I'll be complaining again. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

And if you continue the bad-faith assumptions, the name-calling, the continued habit of discussing the editors rather than the subject matter, and of course the wiki-stalking, then you can expect a swift return here as well, Mr. Barber. Continued frivolous AN/I filings will not reflect very favorably upon you. I must say that I am beginning to see Wikidemon's predicament a bit better now, after he had to deal with your tenacious harassment of him last year. Tarc (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

ahem. *cough, cough* - would you mind not bringing that old dispute up? JohnWBarber is a fine editor. I have had a good working relationship with him at times, rocky at others but we are not in an active dispute now. Can we please not raise old issues? JWB, would you mind holding off before defending yourself to see if we can encourage Tarc not to stir that pot? Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved – 31 hours block. --Moonriddengirl 23:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – User is getting the help they need, thanks to some clever javascript. –xeno 00:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – HalfShadow warned and acknowledged. Ioeth (talk contribs twinkle friendly) 04:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• This is achieving nothing. Go take a break, you can go back to arguing later--Jac16888 09:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
  • So if Giano changes the talk page, then will an admin do something about it? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm de-archiving as I don't feel that this is resolved. I'm extremely concerned that Giano is going to derail the discussion and remove text from the talk page. I would like to know what can be done about this. And what of the edit war that resulted? He violated 3RR, is this not to be enforced? Surely this is disruptive? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 10:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi folks, I'm sorry for the drama, but Giano has basically decided that as he was insulted by some others that he was going to cause as much upset on Misplaced Pages talk:Incivility blocks as possible. As the discussion on how to start off the proposed text got so completely sidetracked, I moved it to its own thread (there was one suggestion which was to archive to stop the drama which Giano reverted several times). This is now being opposed, and Giano has stated that he is going to move it back after this was done almost 8 hours ago. He has also stated that he's not concerned about removing material due to this move, as he stated that "Whatever, if not restored shortly, I shall do it myself, and it would be a pity if anything were to be accidentally lost.". This is getting pretty disruptive, can I please have a review?

Also, he's currently attempting to bait me on my talk page. I'm not really interested in engaging with him directly, as I've stated a number of times, so I would appreciate someone telling him to desist from my talk page. Especially as he was quite willing to also do the same to me, I would have expected him to undertake the same behaviour he expects in others.

I would appreciate that this time the discussion not be archived until we can get a resolution, because this was done last time and the issues continue. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 08:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Tbsdy, I think where baiting on talk pages is concerned you are the expert. I am happy to take your page off my watchlist. There - done! However, you are becoming monotonous and dull. You cannot exclude people because they don't happen to agree with you. It is a great pity, but one I fear you will have to learn yo live with. You attempted to force through a policy, based on a deebate largely centred on me (about which no one thought to inform me). Now I share my views with you and that debate, you are unhappy. That realy can't be helped.  Giano  08:32, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

What about your statement where you said you were prepared to lose material from the talk page? Can you confirm that this is the case? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 08:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ta-Bu you are becoming over exited. I said it would be a pity I am known to be Misplaced Pages's worst merger and mover - nothing more. If you or soemone else put my comments back into context it would be far safer, look how carefully you moved them in the first place. You are very clever at things like that - I am not.  Giano  08:39, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm feeling pretty calm, but thanks for asking. Your comments were not related to the previous discussion, and my move of them into their own thread actually still shows them in their full context. Any reasonable editor will be able to follow your concerns, which have nothing to do with starting off the policy text. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 08:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• No, not at all, read the debate, if you are able, you will see your friend, Wehalt, was overuled and the person concerned was blocked. I rather leave baiting to others more expert than me. I merely mention the episode to show the hypocrisy surrounding the blocking for undenialble and true incivility. Now I am truly done here. Good luck in your future Misplaced Pages career.  Giano  15:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you moved comments on a wikipedia debate, without consultation of wisdom. You had no right to do that and were attempting to influence a debate that was not going the way you wanted it to. The page duscussed me at length, in my absence, and now you throw a mega-strop when I arrive and start to corect some of the conclusions drawn by slandering and defaming me. My name occurs 20 odd times before over a two week period before I edit it for the first time. Then when I do, you remove my edits to a corner out of context because they don't fit your view. You should be banned from the discussion for distortion.  Giano  08:48, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, no. What happened here was that you started talking about something that was entirely irrelevant to the topic thread. Then FatherGoose set archived header and footer on this material, but you reverted it here, here, here and here, all because you want to continue the discussion. Now at least one editor commented and stated how confused they were about the discussion, mainly due to the poor use of indenting and the fact that the new discussion you forked has nothing to do with the original discussion. So to compromise, I moved your totally irrelevant comments into its own thread. I thought this was a pretty fair compromise, given that you were edit warring. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 08:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and for the record, I've tried to tell you this quite a few times now, but I had nothing to do with that conversation you are, justifiably, upset about. I'm not feeling "strops" (now that is an Australian word if ever I've heard one, have you ever visited?), all I'm really interested in is getting topics of conversation back on track again. I don't think it's appropriate for you to be using the incivility block talk page as a forum for your grievances - if you have an issue with the way that someone has treated you, try filing a case at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts, as this is a more appropriate avenue for this sort of thing. Certainly it's less disruptive. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ta Bu you really should disengage, your distortions in order to win your points are now becoming concerning. Anyone reading the dialogue as it was before vandalised by you could see a rationed arguement. You took exception to my metephor and idiom which you could not understand. That is now many people debate.You really have to learn to be a little more broad minded and tolerant. I hope you can acheive this. Now, I'm not coming back here to talk to you further because these threads here of yours are becoming disruptive in themselves. Adieu.  Giano  09:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's your right Giacomo, but you are mischaracterizing my actions. As I stated above, I'm not happy about the conversation where you were mentioned without being around, but I can't condone you disrupting the talk page. Evidently I'm not the only one, as Father Goose tried to archive the thread to stop the drama, GoodDay also tried to get an uninvolved admin involved and expressed a desire to collapse your part of the conversation, Doc Quintana has expressed some frustration as it's not easy to follow proceedings and obviously I would like it if you took your grievances elsewhere. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

So we have a situation here where at least four editors are not happy with the the thread that Giano forked and a compromise was attempted. However, he is now saying that he's prepared to disrupt the policy discussion by readding the material and continuing his grievances. Why is this not an admin matter? Yes, I know it looks like a squabble, but surely the four editors I've noted above should be at least considered in this whole thing? Giano is the only one who wants to continue the conversation, but surely this is not the place for this? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

fwiw, I think moving peoples comments at all (or archiving discussions, or using 'collapse' boxes etc.) is generally a bad idea - it gives (to me at least) the impression of a sort of unhelpful passive aggression that's just not very useful in actually moving forward and resolving discussions. A valid argument could be made, in my opinion, that it's not very 'civil' either (I get more annoyed by these things than by people saying nasty things about me (shock! it's true! not all see the beauty of this private muse!). On the other hand - I am aware of one groovy way to encourage folk to disengage and chill for a while ;-) Privatemusings (talk) 10:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

LOL! I only use that for folks who have already expressed their opinion but have nothing more to add :-) In this situation, there has been a 3RR violation and a total derailment of several conversations all because one editor has been justifiably upset by the comments of some totally unrelated editors to the thread they were commenting on. I feel that something needs to be done here. Even if Giano is told not to readd the thread, that would be fine by me. But then, technically he should be blocked for 24 hours for edit warring. Note that this isn't the best course of action, but I think it shows a clear indication of disruptive behaviour. The function of ANI is for reports of problems with disruption, so archiving without a clear resolution is not helpful. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 10:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

nah... blocking's a terrible idea for a whole bunch of reasons, I reckon, and I think you can be confident at this point that you've expressed your thoughts on the matter well - so the best next step is probably to disengage yourself, and allow others to take action (or ignore the whole thing, and drink tea, as admin.s are occassionaly wont to do!) - either ways it'll all come out in the wash... Privatemusings (talk) 10:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)heading offline now, so it really is the end of my correspondance ;-) - good to see both you chaps around here, btw - even if you are getting on each other's tits ;-)

Well, I have to disagree. I really need some reassurance that Giano will not try to restore the thread and disrupt existing threads. That is all I'm looking for here. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 10:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Why because it might have a chance of actually solving this? I just hope if I ever go off the deep end I'll be given 10 chances to turn it around too.--Crossmr (talk) 11:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I am absolutely amazed at how much patience people show to Giano. Even when he disrupts and is completely rude (says things like "priggish hypocrisy", etc.) nothing is done. In fact, if anyone dares to complain or ask for assistance, admins close down the thread? Why?!? We wouldn't let someone like Nothughthomas do this, why should we let Giano? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 11:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it a good idea in the middle of a dispute with another user to nominate one of there userpages for deletion? User:Giano/The_spooky_"Curse_of_Giano" Off2riorob (talk) 12:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

If he is maintaining an attack page, sure. Why not? If you reported a vandal or a troll who maintained an attack page like this, what would you do about it? I mean, come on - even the people who are currently voting keep are basically saying that Giacomo should be banned for his incivility. Since when did we put up with this sort of mean spirited and hurtful behaviour? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 12:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it a good idea to let such a drama monger continue to have editing privileges here? The sheer volume of controversy over this user should tell anyone all that is really needed to be known. I'm just waiting for some of his supporters and the supporters of other long term drama mongers to make public the WP:CONTRIBFORPOLICYVIOLATION cheat sheet so us plebs can finally keep score.--Crossmr (talk) 12:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Thats not much of an attack page, its a simple reference to some of the blocks that he feels a bit grieved about, it looks pretty harmless to me. Off2riorob (talk) 12:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, no, that's not the case here. He's basically saying that any admin who has the temerity to oppose him gets blocked. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 12:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

So what is actually going on here? This editor has clearly been a huge drama, and is completely rude in every way. Yes, we all know of his brilliance in terms of architecture, but if he was abducted by aliens tomorrow and were to never return, would Misplaced Pages survive? Well, yes, it would. So why are people so concerned about upsetting him, when he is clearly not worried about doing this to others? Can anyone explain this? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 12:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't, and like all great users who show up here on what seems like a weekly basis, I always support showing them the door indefinitely.--Crossmr (talk) 12:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Basically, any time someone reports Giano for civility, it results in a huge, week-long dramafest that never gets anything resolved, but creates a lot of bad faith and (usually) wheel-warring over blocks. Giano has enough friends and enemies that nothing ever gets consensus, so we just keep going round and round. Outside of him doing something bad enough for ArbCom to step in, which he seems smart enough to avoid, there's no way he's going to be blocked. So, at this point, people just shrug and go about their business, rather than step into the mire of drama that will ensue. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that's fine, but I'm not having him hold Misplaced Pages talk:Incivility blocks to ransom. He'll not be moving that thread. If no admin has the guts to step in to stop it, then I guess I'll need to ensure it doesn't happen myself. I'm not going to have such an important policy proposal derailed by one editor, no matter how brilliant at architectural articles he may be. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 13:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I looked at the thread with great hope, because I am no friend of Giano's and would not mourn overmuch at his wikideparture. Unhappily, I see nothing blockworthy or otherwise deserving of administrator intervention. Giano tends to crowd the edge, but he wasn't even close this time. Ah well.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

What about the violation of 3RR? He's already shown he's willing to get into an edit war, and I fear he will do this to readd the thread. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 13:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It is likely any 3RR violation is stale. However, if you want to make an issue of it, go ahead and post the diffs. I am about to leave for the day so won't be dealing with it, but perhaps you can find someone willing.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Sigh, forget about it. I'm not going to let him return that thread against general consensus. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 13:30, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

OH dear, I thought this thread was closed before I went off to spend a morning in the real world, yet I come back not to harmony, but more strange behaviour by TBSDY (his AFDing a humourous user page - just ignore it). Now, would someone please restore my comments back into context as they were before TBSDY removed them. I tried last night, but then realised it was probably beyond my limited merging capabilities, whatever, I am prepared to have a go if no one more capable is prepared to try - please just don't all shout "Giano - you have lost something important" because it won't be deliberate - I assure you.  Giano  14:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we've already established that this isn't to be done. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 14:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• TSBDY, I am not going to tit-for-tat with you here any longer, we shall just see what happens in the next hour or so. I am too busy at present to try it myself as it wil requite all my powers of concentration. Hopefully, some clever person will try it for me. Now please don't reply, you are becoming tedious and I won't either.  Giano  14:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• Please don't restore that thread to where it was before. You are honestly being disruptive to the policy page. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 14:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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