Misplaced Pages

Time to formally ban User:Wiki Greek Basketball

See users talk page and User talk:Abecedare#Wiki Greek Basketball. User refuses to accept their block here, has apparently engaged in socking, and is emailing users outside of the WP email system who were unfortunate enough to have emailed him the past, allowing him to see their addresses. Has a terminal case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and was warned on his talk page the last time he sent out his emails begging to be unblocked that keeping it up would lead to a ban. After being blocked here, he went on to get himself blocked from Simple, Italian Misplaced Pages, and Commons. This user has had good faith extended to them time and again, only to have him spit in our faces each time. A formal siteban seems an appropriate action, this one is a lost cause. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

He's already de facto banned - indef blocked and just had a (I think?) unanimous rejection of the proposal to unblock him. –xeno 19:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe just the guy who started the thread - although he kind of backed off during the discussion. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep, he's the proposer, so it's somewhat implied he supported it. The proposal itself still stands unanimously rejected. –xeno 19:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) the guy is clearly de-facto banned anyway - I certainly never plan to unblock him, and I'd be surprised if there were any admins around with enough over-optimistic good faith to do so. He's had more than enough chances, and will need a lengthy absence before he can have another one. I don't think we need a great deal of extra discussion here. ~ mazca 19:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no way he will be let back in less than six months, if ever. I say leave it be as is unless more socking and email nettling crops up. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

But it did just crop up, after he was warned to cut it out. While he is defacto banned, an actual siteban makes the process of dealing with the inevitable sock accounts simpler, that is essentially the only reason for this request for a formal ban. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I actually hadn't realized till just now that he'd duped someone into requesting his unblock here just yesterday, I missed that but if anything it strengthens the case for banning. He was blocked from the WP email system, but continues to evade that as well and emails users with his begging and pleading to be unblocked despite having the issues explained to him about a thousand times already and being told he needs to sit tight for a while. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

How does a formal site ban make it easier to deal with socks? Block evasion is block evasion whether it's evading a de facto or formal ban. –xeno 19:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, he's lied without end. I've tagged his userpage with the banned template. If this doesn't have consensus, any admin can take it down or ask me to do so. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

That works for me. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:40, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

As one of the admins he's been in touch with (albeit without knowing that I was recently made an admin), I agree with everyone above. I have reached the limit with WGB. I can see no evidence from the communications that I've had with him that he is sorry for the disruption he has caused (here, on Commons, on SE Misplaced Pages and on the Italian Misplaced Pages) - all he does is blame everyone else. I have now set up an auto reply which just lets him know that I am ignoring his email (I have emailed him to let him know that is what I am doing). The auto-reply was triggered about 30 mins ago. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 22:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose That only gives him no other option other than to make socks if he doesn't get Misplaced Pages out of his system. WGB doesn't seem to respond well to feeling cornered as we've seen. Sure, we can block the socks and then he'll make more and we'll block those, and we'll just waste everyone's time. Keep it at an indef block. Doc Quintana (talk) 22:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not therapy. Those are all his problems, not ours, it's ridiculous in the extreme to suggest he has no choice but to create sock accounts. I'm sure his web browser allows him to access the rest of the internet, not just Misplaced Pages.The fact that he has in the meantime managed to be indef blocked from three other Wikimedia sites is telling as well. Caving in to his pathetic whining is only going to encourage more of this foolishness. This user needs to be sent a clear and direct message (again) that they are not welcome to be editing Misplaced Pages under any name. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Keeping the indef block isn't caving into him by any means. Caving in would be removing the block. My goal is to reduce to amount of aggrevation we see in regards to this user. If he completely loses hope with the WGB handle, but isn't completely off Misplaced Pages, he'll just cause more aggrevation. If you want to deal with that aggrevation, i'm fine with it: in that case, we shouldn't be talking here, his incarnations should just be blocked on sight. Doc Quintana (talk) 23:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again, wikipedia isn't therapy. It isn't our place to coddle people, unless they're incredibly uncivil and make friends first.. The community needs to handle problem users appropriately. We're a group of volunteers and don't have the time, skills or resources to go around psycho-evaluating everyone to see how our discipline is going to effect them.--Crossmr (talk) 01:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again, we're looking for the solution here that helps the encyclopedia the most. Banning WGB adds nothing to help the encyclopedia versus keeping him on indef block. Doc Quintana (talk) 22:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• support Like most, I don't see much chance of reform here.--Crossmr (talk) 01:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support And the argument that a ban will encourage him to further violate the rules, what's the next alternative, letting him back so he wouldn't need socks? He's already shown that he won't stop with the current situation. He knows what he needs to do and he just doesn't want to do it. I know it's absurd but why not let him have the admin tools too so he won't bother people with AFDs and the like if he gets disruptive there? Rewarding this kind of behavior is bad. If he cannot control himself, he should get punished further. Period. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support - By inciting a formal ban, we'll eliminate the need to worry about WP:OFFER - not that it's official or anything, but I think the user has certainly exhausted the patience of the community infinitely. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 17:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Well actually no. WP:OFFER is applicable to banned users also--Cailil 18:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support I feel that WGB has exhausted the patience of the community (he certainly has mine). He has shown by his actions on other WMF projects that he is as unwilling to work in a co-operative manner on any of them, not just the English Misplaced Pages. Although not 'admissible' here, his behaviour off-wiki (including threats of legal action against two admins here who had done nothing wrong) leads me to personally be unwilling to extend him any leeway - but his behaviour on-wiki is just as bad, and so even without the emails which I used to receive from him (before I set up an "ignore" rule) I would feel that a ban is justified for this user. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 18:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Perhaps in this case a global block (or what ever it's called when Global admins block an account) would be more to the point? If there is significant disruption on WMF sites including en-wikipedia then it should be taken up the line, no?--Cailil 18:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support There was already established consensus for this, and the above arguments have identified those well. This is really just a technicality at this point. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 18:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Otherwise, I think wikipedia will run out of carrots. Consensus was already fairly well established. NativeForeigner /_Contribs 03:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I have been forwarding his various emails to the unblock list. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 07:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
• This whole affair is very unfortunate. Wiki Greek Basketball is somebody with the potential to become a fine article contributor — but the downside obviously being his apparent inability to interact cordially with others. This leads me to question his suitability for a collaborative website like Misplaced Pages, as it requires people who can get along with others. At this time, a ban may be a fair option, as the community has attempted various options leading up to this and there isn't much else to choose from at this point. A break would be good for him, to allow some time to grow and learn from his mistakes. That said, I wouldn't like to shut the doors on this person entirely. If at some point in the future he has matured enough to be a collaborative and agreeable editor without causing significant issues like he has done before, then I would support a return to normal editing, with obvious sanctions such as a restriction from editing requests for adminship or a ruling against interacting with certain people. But given his attitude towards others and the bad blood that has been created, some time needs to pass before that can be considered (I'd say a minimum of 6 months, though preferably longer, and without sockpuppeting or unnecessary off-wiki communications with other users). At present, WGB is already under a de facto indefinite ban, and therefore should not be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages under any account. Master&Expert (Talk) 23:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support, even if it's a mere formality at this point. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support If it makes it easier to block his socks, do it. RadManCF (talk) 01:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Judging by past practice, someone is going to suggest an unblock again in a short time, and we need to have a clear statement of the community's reluctant agreement that collaboration involving this user is not likely in the near future. Johnuniq (talk) 06:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Noleander redux

Noleander is back, and continuing his previous disturbing behavior. If you'll recall, in the past he created articles promoting antisemitic conspiracy theories, which were eventually deleted: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Misuse_of_antisemitic_accusations http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controversies_related_to_prevalence_of_Jews_in_leadership_roles_in_Hollywood

His activities prompted a lengthy AN/I thread, http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive572#User:Noleander in which he quite plainly stated "My perception is that Misplaced Pages is censored in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews, and I'm attempting to reverse that censorship." While that AN/I thread was in progress, he disappeared for 3 months. Since his return to regular editing two weeks ago, however, he is doing much the same, albeit with more subtlety.

His first actions were to add three new antisemitic conspiracy theories to the Antisemitic canards article, that Jews control the media, Hollywood, and global finance: While this may seem innocuous enough, he then focused on adding to the List of Jewish American businesspeople any Jews who were senior members of Financial firms, media owners, or heads of Hollywood studios: an eye-winking way of saying "we don't believe this canard that a Jewish cabal controls all this stuff, it's just that there happen to be so many Jews in senior roles here". Prominent in the "Finance & Trading" section were fairly notorious Jews Ivan Boesky, Andrew Fastow, Bernie Madoff, Michael Milken and Marc Rich. For good measure, he threw in a "Pornography" section. Now, he may claim that he just happened to be adding names that he came across while reading J.J. Goldberg's Jewish Power (1996). This, however, is not the case. In fact, he has had to do Google Books searches for specific names, in order to prove they were Jews; a variety of sources including

• Shapiro, Edward (1995). A Time for Healing: American Jewry Since World War II
• Shay, Scott (2007). Getting our groove back
• Harlan, Stephan (2008). Encyclopedia of American Jewish history, Volume 1
• Strober, Deborah (2009). Catastrophe: The Story of Bernard L. Madoff, the Man Who Swindled the World
• Abigail Pogrebin. Stars of David (book): Prominent Jews Talk About Being Jewish
• Amman, Daniel (2009). The King of Oil
• Maisel, Louis (2001). Jews in American politics
• Langley, Monica (2004). Tearing Down the Walls
• Rosenberg, Hilary (2000). The Vulture Investors

etc.

Again, this is not a case of someone coming across a name in a book they were reading, and adding it to the list, but of someone actively searching for proof that specific individuals are Jews, so that they can be added to the List. Ivan Boesky, Andrew Fastow, Bernie Madoff, Michael Milken, Marc Rich etc. do not appear on this list by chance, but rather as part of a campaign of reversing alleged "censorship" "in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews". It is no accident that it is those specific Jews he searches for to add to the list, rather than, say, Sheldon Adelson, Michael Bloomberg, Eli Broad, Edgar Bronfman, Andrew Grove, George Kaiser, etc. If they're not controlling world finance or the media/Hollywood, and are not criminals (or are not "pornographers"), then they don't interest Noleander.

His other edits have included edit-warring in a section about "Allegations of control of the world's banking system" in the Rothschild article:, adding sections to the "Criticism of Judaism" article and proposing more Also relevant are these recent edits:

It appears, as was evident in the previous AN/I discussion, that Oleander edits Misplaced Pages primarily for two reasons; to include negative information about Mormons and Jews. In the past he focused more on Mormons; since the last AN/I discussion however, he has focused more on Jews. Even when the information he provides is arguably relevant, it has to be extensively edited to conform with policy (e.g. , ). While his pretense is that he is only attempting to debunk antisemitic canards, his actions indicate that he is actually attempting to promote them. Jayjg 01:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

This seems like one giant bad-faith assumption. I don't see anything wrong with any of these actions, unless one were to put them together and look at it from a conspiracy theorist's point of view. The heart of the original complaints against Noleander's edits were that he created a separate article about an antisemitic canard, rather than contributing to the existing article that lists them. Now you're complaining that he's contributing to existing articles by adding things that properly belong there, merely because you think he's doing it for some devious purpose? This isn't right. Equazcion 01:40, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Equazcion, it's admirable that you leap to Noleander's defense yet again; loyalty is a great thing. However, we're not idiots here. I've described essentially all he's done on Misplaced Pages since he returned; tried to subtly promote antisemitic conspiracy theories. Why did he go to the trouble of adding Andrew Fastow etc. to the List of Jewish-American businesspeople? Why that list of Jewish "pornographers"? WP:DUCK applies here. Jayjg 01:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm loyal to no persons, only ideals. Are you saying Jewish pornographers are somehow inappropriate for the list of successful businesspeople? For what reason? Equazcion 01:53, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Please stop pretending this is an issue about a single edit. Jayjg 02:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: If you think the list articles have become unbalanced, or something, and there are "better" examples of Jews in big business positions, then add the ones you think are missing. Equazcion 01:47, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

As is obvious, the issue isn't with specific article edits, though some of them are obviously problematic, but with a pattern of behavior. Please don't try to sidetrack. Jayjg 01:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with this pattern. If there are things missing from articles that have been omitted because people find them unpleasant, then I think it's a good thing they're being added. Articles shouldn't artificially lean towards the positive, even for sensitive subjects like Judaism. Equazcion 01:53, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Again, please stop deflecting. The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with articles "artificially leaning towards the positive". You see nothing wrong with editing Misplaced Pages solely for the purpose of either promoting negative information about members of an ethnic group, or promoting information intended to support conspiracy theories about that ethnic group? Jayjg 02:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I think it's fine. The "conspiracy theory" aspect id your guess, not exactly apparent. He's inserting the omitted "bad" stuff. The reason he's doing it is a matter of interpretation. You can say "aww come on, it's obvious he's promoting conspiracy theories" all you want, but that's again a bad-fait assumption. I'm not deflecting, I've answered your concern by explaining to you why I think this "pattern" you've identified is not a problem. Equazcion 02:05, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Equazcion, we know you think "it's fine". You also thought the two deleted articles were "fine"; more than fine. And you think it's fine to edit Misplaced Pages solely for the purpose of denigrating a specific ethnic group. Gotcha. Jayjg 02:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for this to be at ANI. There's no immediate pressing concern for admin action. Surely WP:DR or similar? Black Kite 01:57, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

This seems to have been the only thing Noleander has focused on recently, which does make it worrying. You might say, "but all that matters is the content," but the content can't be trusted if it's being added by an editor who seems to be overly focused on one POV about one group of people. That means someone has to be constantly checking and balancing it, which isn't fair to other editors. SlimVirgin 01:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's pretty fair. Part of editing the encyclopedia is balancing out each others' POV's. That's part of how articles become NPOV. The fact that a sensitive subject like Judaism is involved is the only reason this issue is at ANI. Equazcion 02:02, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about a single article, however, such as Judaism. It's about multiple articles, with one editing goal. Or do you, too, share Noleander's view that "that Misplaced Pages is censored in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews"? Jayjg 02:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

But what would you say, Equazcion, of an editor who went around adding the names of terrorists to List of Muslim businessmen, because some terrorists are Muslim and some of those were also businessmen. And when we looked at his contribs, we found that was the only thing he did, and that there was never anything positive added, only the negative. There are BLP implications, there are racism/antisemitism implications, there are SPA implications, not to mention NPOV and NOR. It's just not good editing, however you look at it. SlimVirgin 02:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)I'm not noleander, nor am I in a cult with him, so stop trying to lump your enemies together with pigeonholes. It's irrelevant that it's not about a single article. There are editors at all these articles who can see if there's a problem with their balance, and respond to it. Maybe you could simply watch them and help balance them out. I'm not sure why we would even make the assumption, though, that this will turn into a problem. If the user is inserting material previously omitted due to it being somehow unpleasant, in order to balance them out, why are we assuming he'll go too far in the other direction? Has he already unfairly slanted any article towards the negative? Which ones? If he hasn't, should we be assuming he will? That would not seem like an assumption of good faith to me. SlimVirgin: All those implications can be dealt with per-incident, if there are any. Right now you're basically only assuming such incidents will occur. I don't think that's what we generally are supposed to do here. Equazcion 02:13, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the lists of Jewish people (although adding a "pornography" section is really out of line), but it's ridiculous that he added this and this. I'm going to block indefinitely, this seems like a very clear case of a disruptive editor. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, what exactly is wrong with those edits that warrants a block, Tbsdy? Equazcion 02:18, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Adding Jewish conspiracy theories to Sept 11th articles is not the right way of editing this encyclopedia. I've reviewed the previous discussion and seen enough contributions to see that we have a disruptive editor on our hands. I would normally be hesitant about this sort of block, but in this case I believe it to be warranted. They clearly know what the norms and policies are of Misplaced Pages, so I think that ignoring them as they have done is totally out of line and shows to me that they aren't willing to abide by them. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

He appears to have added "Several analysts documented that a motiviation for the attackes was the support of Israel by the United States". Is that a conspiracy theory? I'm pretty sure it's well documented that that was indeed a possible motivation, and he added credible citations. It doesn't even seem offensive. What's the problem? Equazcion 02:24, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The problem is that it's giving undue weight to fringe conspiracy theories. There are thousands of conspiracy theories about September 11th, we don't include them in the article. There is already an article at 9/11 conspiracy theories with a whole section, and in fact another article also has a whole section on this also. He knows this, so he should be editing there, but he isn't so he's being quite disruptive. There are other worrying signs he's got a POV to push, which is OK so long as it isn't disruptive, but in this case it is so therefore I've blocked him indefinitely. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The motivation involving the US support of Israel is not a conspiracy theory, fringe or otherwise. It's a well-documented possible motivation for the terrorist act. Equazcion 02:33, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Oh brother, do I have egg on my face. I didn't read carefully enough. I'm unblocking. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks :) Equazcion 02:36, 12 Feb 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Editor is unblocked with my apologies. I will refrain from any further blocks based on this thread, though I reserve the right to comment on his actions on WP:AN/I and to block in future (obviously with a bit more care than this time). - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if he should be blocked, but there's a very clear pattern of edits. And it isn't pretty. The Jewish pornographers seems to be the most blatant. Many of these edits by themselves look innocuous but the overall pattern seems like he is pushing an anti-Semitic agenda. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I think none of us agree with "Noleander's view that "that Misplaced Pages is censored in regards to some topics that reflect negatively on Jews"? ' We therefore should wish to make certain that we never do anything of the kind. DGG ( talk ) 04:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages blacklisted some sites because they are critical to Misplaced Pages. I hope you are not suggesting that Misplaced Pages should become yet another anti-Semitic site just because somebody adds anti-Semitic garbage to the articles, and claims censorship, if he is not allowed to do it.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

No, but nor should Misplaced Pages refrain from featuring verifiable (not rumoured, speculated, or "well, everybody knows that") facts (not gossip, folk myth or urban legend), just because they are about Jews, Irish, Chicanos, Phonecians, Hittites etc Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

But since that's not what has happened in this case, it's difficult to understand why you make that point. Jayjg 01:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Merely suspecting an editor of being racist or having an agenda should never be grounds for a block. If and when there's good evidence of POV problems or disruptive editing, try talking to Noleander about it, and then go to dispute resolution if that doesn't work. Taking him to ANI now for these edits is OTT. Fences&Windows 06:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea if Noleander is racist, nor do I care, because it is entirely irrelevant to my point, and to Misplaced Pages. All I care about is a pattern of edits, and a stated goal. Noleander edits Misplaced Pages primarily for the purpose of making Jews look bad. That's disruptive, and wouldn't be tolerated if he did it in relation to other minorities. Good evidence of the problem has already been presented, and there have already been two AN/I threads about it. Keep in mind, it's only two week since he returned to editing; in effect, the problem never really went away, it's just that Noleander didn't edit for a long while. Jayjg 01:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay: my account was blocked for awhile. Apparently some admin blocked me by accident, then tried to unblock me but failed. I'd complain, but it's hard to get angry when admins are unpaid volunteers :-) We all make mistakes.

Regarding Jayjg's complaint: this is about 3 things: Content, Content, and Content. Jayjg is unhappy with additions I have proposed to the articles Antisemitic canard, Criticism of Judaism, and List of Jewish American businesspeople.

Rather than continue the dialog on the Talk pages (and, yes, there was on-going dialog on all those Talk pages: Ive never made any significant change without discusson on Talk pages first), Jayjg decided to throw up another "intimidation via ANI" smokescreen. And so here we are.

In the last ANI, I explained why Im interested in criticism of religion. So I won't repeat those details. But it is the topic Im interested in, and I'll continue editing there. Unfortunately, articles on religion tend to be very controversial, so I'm used to being called anti-mormon, anti-catholic, anti-semitic. I'm not of course - although the notable sources such as Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Israel Shahak may be. But the distinction between editor and source is deliberately blurred by Jayjg.

One of these days, someone will address the issue of censorship in the religion articles, or maybe "systematic bias" is a more accurate description of the problem? A few months ago, I brought up the systematic bias issue, expecting some Misplaced Pages sage to actually step in and do something, but it is dawning on me that there is no sage :-) (Although there was one editor, User:Georgewilliamherbert, who was rational and objective ... whoever he is: props to him!).

It is so easy for a handful of editors to pile-on and do the tag-team thing to exclude content they deem offensive - regardless of how notable and substantiated the content is. I suppose intimidation and tag-teaming is easier than actually discussing the content on the Talk page.

But as I learned in the prior ANI, neutral editors that visit these pages are way too busy to do a detailed scrutiny. Who has time to look at the Talk pages of the pages and see if I've been civil (I have)? Who has time to look at the content and sources to see if they are reliable and notable (they are)? Who has time to see if Jayjg tried to discuss the issue on the Talk page (he didn't)? No one. We are all unpaid volunteers, blundering forward.

So, I propose that we continue, Jayjg and me and the other interested editors, discussing the issues on the Talk pages. I also suggest that we check our egos at the door, and try to focus on what is best for the reader of this encyclopedia. Working together, we can produce neutral, balanced, comprehensive articles. Shall we try? --Noleander (talk) 07:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe I blocked you for only 15 minutes, which is bad enough I guess. However, I did unblock you. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 07:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I was blocked for 24 hours. The error message was something like "You are not blocked, but your IP address is". The expiration time of the IP block was 12 Feb 18:13, if that helps. But I can edit now, so no big deal. --Noleander (talk) 07:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. You should have sent me an email - I didn't block your email access. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 08:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Noleander, despite your obfuscation, the issue is about behavior, behavior, behavior. You edit primarily Jewish-related articles, solely for the purpose of making Jews look bad. That's a behavioral issue, since the specific content varies wildly, depending on the article. The fact that you pretend, with no evidence whatsoever, that there is "censorship" or "systemic bias" in relation to religion articles is a pretty transparent cover for this distasteful behavior. Adding a list of "Pornographers" to the List of Jewish-American businessmen has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. And the fact that you again admit you're trying to combat this imaginary "censorship" also puts the lie to the claim that you're simply trying to document antisemitic canards. No, you are trying to promote them, in order to overcome this imaginary "censorship". Jayjg 06:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, while I'd agree that the term 'pornographer' is probably not what such people call themselves, there are people in the US, some of whom may be of the Jewish faith or ethnicity, who are major players in the Adult print (and increasingly web) industry and the Adult end of the movie industry, which are big business in the US. Since this is a business, like any other, so if producers of other genres of entertainment media are mentioned, the notables in the Adult genre should be mentioned too. So if your objection is to the descriptor 'pornographer', I'm with you. If your objection is to revealing that some persons who would describe themselves as Jewish-American are senior executives in Adult entertainment, then that's censorship.Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

No Elen of the Roads. As I've very, very clearly stated more than once, this is not about any specific edit, but about a pattern of behavior. When one edits all Jewish-related articles, including the List of Jewish American businesspeople, for the sole purpose of, in that editor's view, making Jews look bad, then it's a behavioral issue. Mentioning the list of pornographers was simply a response to Noleander's transparent prevarication that he made this edit (and other similar ones) as a "criticism of religion". Adding a list of ethnic Jews in "Pornography" is not a "criticism" of Judaism; indeed, we have no idea what religion these people practice, and in any event their line of work is irrelevant to their faiths, whatever they may be. And the fact that he used the pejorative descriptor "Pornography" while in his edit summary used the more neutral and encyclopedic "adult industry execs" is merely one symptom (albeit a common one) of the larger problem. Jayjg 18:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Noleander says his interest lies in criticism of religion, which is fine, but this has nothing to do with religion that I can see. He seems to be focusing on ethnicity. Jewish businessmen and pornography have nothing to do with Judaism. SlimVirgin 22:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Adult entertainment" is a euphemism. Must one use euphemisms to comply with NPOV? Michael Hardy (talk) 14:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Noleander's use of the not-PC-on-Misplaced Pages word "censorship" is obfuscating the issue. He sees something missing, I think, rather than something that isn't allowed to exist on Misplaced Pages. Actually, though, the only evidence that it isn't allowed to exist is threads like this, as DGG pointed out above.

This isn't a case of WP:DUCK. It's a matter of choosing to perceive things a certain way, when there's a choice. WP:AGF tells us which choice we're supposed to make in cases like this. If someone said "Maybe it's time certain information that people have traditionally found objectionable, like Jewish pornographers, be included in articles, as info like this is sorely missing from Misplaced Pages," that's not an unreasonable cause to undertake. The problem is, such a person's edits would be rather indistinguishable from "pushing an antisemitic agenda"; it's just a matter of how you choose to see it.

Such ambiguous situations are the reason we have WP:AGF as a policy -- to remove the ambiguity, and tell you how you're supposed to view the situation, as least as far as your on-wiki actions are concerned. Equazcion 14:36, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Ambiguous? Indeed, we're supposed to assume good faith. However, once lack of good faith is demonstrated, and the assumption clearly is not a valid assumption, the policy becomes irrelevant. In this particular case, we have an editor with an unambiguously intensely POV approach to editing, doing his best to promote bigotry. It surprises me that this sort of bigotry has this much support, but perhaps I am naive. --jpgordon 16:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no "ambiguity" whatsoever here. Noleander has made it clear by both his actions and words what his intent is. And Equazcion, we won't be diverted by your continued game of pretending this is about a single edit. No, it's not about "Jewish pornographers"; it's about editing articles related to Jews with the sole intent of making Jews look bad. Noleander is, as jpgordon states plainly and truthfully, "doing his best to promote bigotry". He's not trying to balance any imagined imbalance, or overcome any invented censorship. He's just quacking very loudly. Jayjg 18:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there seems to be no ambiguity here. This is not the first time Equazcion has acted as an apologist for bigotry with the excuse that "wikipedia is not censored". Mathsci (talk) 18:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The fact that it's not about individual edits is the problem. If you can't point to any specific article issue, then there's no issue. The alternative is guilt by suspicion. The lack of individual issues to point out means there's no objective evidence. Just because you see something one way doesn't mean that's how it is. No one's condoning bigotry, they're just saying there's no reason to see it that way, nor is the perception any reason to act. WP:DUCK is pretty easily misused to mean "I can act on my suspicions". Anyway I'm sure you know that no one here is a bigot, and are in fact sensitive to those issues. Kindly cease the hostilities. People including me are simply disagreeing with you. Equazcion 19:05, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)

There's plenty of objective evidence; it requires looking at the body of edits, not the individual edits. What a weird idea. --jpgordon 19:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Invited comment: I have been notified of the existence of this thread by Jayjg, an editor I tend to disagree with on matters concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict but agree with on matters concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel. The notification was because I created a previous thread on this page concerning Noleander and his citing of articles held by far right webpages to do with Jewish involvement in Hollywood. The article about which I was complaining has been deleted along with one on allegations of anti-Semitism and because of that I have not got access to the complete archive of my postings at the time. However I recall a one sided selection of data on Noleander's part. I therefore tend to agree with postings above that WP:Duck applies. Why is Noleander so obsessed with matters Jewish that he feels the need to create entries concerning Jewish pornographers? I have seen no evidence Jews are either more nor less seedy than gentiles but am concerned by this editor's apparent obsession with digging up all he can find that is negative about Jews. I am quite happy to take part in mudslinging against the current and previous Israeli governments, but the suggestion that the Jewishness of some of the people on the seedy side of American life needs highlighting strikes me as extremely suspicious in one with the editorial history of Noleander. Unless Noleander demonstrates a capacity to spend well over half of his Misplaced Pages time on amtters that have nothing to do with Jews, then I think that he should be told to go and grind that axe somewhere other than in WIkipedia.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(Un-invited comment) I have to say, I find the existence of this thread depressing. If this were a brick and mortar encyclopedia, Noleander would have been shown the door, smartly, long before now. It's very disturbing that some people want to defend the indefensible. IronDuke 03:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, sure, I would have been kicked out of brick & mortar encyclopedia. But so would Jayjg. The fact is that there is a long and well-documented history of about 20 editors in Misplaced Pages fighting tooth and nail to keep any and all information out of the encyclopedia that in any way reflects negatively on Israel or Jews. Those editors, too, would not be tolerated in a brick & mortar encyclopedia.

There was that odd CAMERA incident http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby_campaign), and then there is http://www.thejidf.org.

And every time there is some dispute, those same 20 or so editors team up with Jayjg (including a few that have commented in this thread). The content and quality of the enclopedia seems to be the last thing on their minds.

But this is wikipedia, where content in controversial areas is - for better or worse - arrived at by the dynamic tension between "opposite sides" (for lack of a better term). Excluding controversial material seems to be top priority. If we spent half the time working on the articles in question as we did pointing fingers at each other, the articles would be in a neutral, balanced state by now. --Noleander (talk) 16:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Well, sure, I would have been kicked out of brick & mortar encyclopedia." It is heartening to see you acknowledge this. "But so would Jayjg." Quite wrong. Jay is a long-standing valued member here. You are not. The reason people are "pointing fingers" at you isn't because you have a POV -- lots of good Wikipedians do. It's that your actions are absolutely reprehensible, I hope you can see the difference there. But I sense that I am feeding you by replying, so I'll make that the last word from me. IronDuke 16:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, Im not following that logic. You're saying that the censorship practiced by Jayjg is okay because he has been doing it a long time? (By the way - you are one of the 20 or so editors that always seem to come to Jayjg's aid :-).

As for "Valued member" - Wasn't Jayjg stripped of checkuser powers because he abused it? Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/West_Bank_-_Judea_and_Samaria#Jayjg_stripped_of_status_and_privileges

--Noleander (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, no, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Jayjg 22:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that demonstrates that the community or its representatives are prepared to take various priveleges away from editors. Now looking at Jayjg's user page I note that he is entitled to quite a flashy Triple crown. Wikipedians have a lot of tolerance for editors who may be awkward in some ways but also provide good contents. (There has been a discussion on unbanning one such person on a board near here.) Now, if you want us to show tolerance for your quirks could you let us know how much featured or good content you have produced? As far as I can tell the answer is none at all as you are too busy pursuing the single purpose of digging dirt about Jews.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

See above where I offered to bury the hatchet and work together with Jayjg to improve the content of several articles. He never responded. --Noleander (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What "hatchet" is there to "bury"? I have no "feud" with you. You are editing in a disruptive way, period. Jayjg 22:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

GA/FA contribs don't matter in a case like this. If they exist they might be something to point out as a "plus", but their lack isn't any reason to say an editor should be blocked. I don't think I've had many GA/FA contribs, and I certainly don't keep track of them, on my user page or elsewhere. That doesn't mean anything. The burden of proof is on the accusers to show actual damage, not on the accused to prove innocence through GAs and FAs.

On Peter Cohen's requested involvment, his extensive introductory comment undoubtedly meant to avert any accusations of WP:CANVAS violations on the part of Jayjg, this was indeed canvassing. Contacting someone who you tend to "agree with on matters concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel" and request they comment on a matter concerning anti-Semitism unconnected with Israel is the definition of Votestacking.

I'll say this again: There are two ways (at least) to look at this editor's "body of edits". It's far from an objective form of proof. As many others commenting here have said, pointing out an editor's perceived agenda is never grounds to do anything. It's a subjective judgment, and it's rather arrogant to claim that one's subjective judgments are in fact objective. You're supposed to assume good faith that the user is attempting to balance the content of these articles, rather than promote antisemitism. There's no way around that.

If someone takes it upon himself to add chlorine to swimming pools, you could conclude he must therefore like to swim in chlorine; but that would be a very glib and unenlightened interpretation. Taking it upon oneself to restore or maintain a balance might mean forming a body of work that doesn't look all that positive. If Noleander tends to only worry about one side of the balance because he feels Misplaced Pages content on the issue tends to be unbalanced, he has every right to do that, and doesn't need to balance out his contributions with edits that advocate the other side equally just to maintain some appearance of positivty. It's just not a requirement here. Equazcion 22:43, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Equazcion, your post is pretty much a smokescreen unrelated to this thread. There's no "perceived agenda" here; Noleander has stated quite openly stated that he believes he must overcome some imaginary "censorship" as regards Jewish topics, and has made it quite obvious his way of doing so is by editing Misplaced Pages solely to make Jews look bad. Editing Misplaced Pages solely for the purpose of adding negative information about a minority group is highly disruptive, and Misplaced Pages would not put up with it if it a different minority group. Jayjg 23:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Jay, you're not listening. Please try to understand: My post answers exactly this concern. Adding only negative information is not necessarily bad. It just might look bad. See the chlorine metaphor. And again please stop with the hostilities, claiming my post is a "smokescreen". I have no agenda to obfuscate the issue. I simply disagree with you. Equazcion 23:08, 15 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Noleander writes above that his interest lies in adding criticism of religions, so perhaps he could put people's minds at rest by focusing on that clearly from now on—on religion, rather than ethnicity, and using good sources that offer a critique of religion. SlimVirgin 22:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Requesting input for proposed community sanction of User:Mister Flash regarding edits related to the British Isles

Mister Flash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been edit warring for quite some time now over whether and how a great number of articles should use the term British Isles. That article is subject to a 1RR restriction, there is a taskforce at Misplaced Pages talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples, and I am not sure if this is related to and subject to the sanctions at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case. Many of these articles are watched by very few people, or the regular editors do not feel like getting involved with a highly contentious minor point (example: the recent edit war at FWA Footballer of the Year received no comment from editors not involved in this wide-ranging terminology dispute). It is certainly possible that wider editing restrictions may be called for regarding this dispute, but I think a restriction on Mister Flash would go a long way towards reducing British Isles terminology related disruption. I would like to propose that they be placed on a 1RR restriction and be required to gain firm consensus at the relevant talkpage or the taskforce page before making any edit regarding whether and how any article should describe this particular geographic and geopolitical region. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

As one of the editors involved in setting up the task force some intervention would be appreciated. There have been long standing edit wars over this, and consolidating all the debates in one place started to get some structure in place. However Mister Flash has an auto-revert approach on any change that does not involve the use of the BI term, regardless of the level of consensus. S/he seems to be a single purpose account. A brief review of the Task Force will show that while several editors are being even handed, their work is being disrupted by a failure to accept consensus and a consistent refusal to engage in discussion. There is a 1RR restriction already in place so I don't think that is the solution to be honest. We need something that prevents simple say-saying on every task force discussion--Snowded 20:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The articles-in-question, should be covered by the Troubles Enforcement ruling of 1RR (if they are not). GoodDay (talk) 21:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the opportunity to state my case in this matter. First let me brief you on some historical aspects. From some time about early 2008 User:HighKing has waged a campaign against the term British Isles. I will not comment on his motives, but I merely draw your attention to the facts. Initially the removals were carried out en-masse, with perhaps dozens of removals in a single editing session. I estimate that in the three-year period of this activity a minimum of 500 removals have occurred. During his campaign HighKing has been assisted by numerous other users, principally User:Crispness (possibly now editing under a "clean start" as User:Þjóðólfr) and User:Snowded. HighKing's activities have spilled out across Misplaced Pages and have resulted in many edit wars, confrontations and violations of policy, involving everyone concerned. His work continues. Only two days ago a further two deletions were carried out, each of which featured the usual trademark of an edit summary not adequately describing what was happening. I came across HighKing in late 2008 and found myself objecting strongly to his edits. I tend to revert his edits because, in my opinion, the vast majority of them are not justified. Rarely is the term British Isles being used incorrectly. If it ever is, then I don't object to its removal. When removals are challenged, a variety of tactics are used to try and overcome the objections. All the tactics employed amount to variations on gaming the system, with wikilawyering and policy shopping being foremost amongst them. Take the recent example of Five Peaks Challenge - the edits which have caused the reporting of this incident: HighKing first tried to claim the subject was not notable, when that failed he went for a merge, and this was followed by claims that the references (references to support an axiom, I might add) were inadequate. This latter tactic is a favourite of the anti-British Isles community; place a cite tag on an obvious fact and when no references are forthcoming, delete the term. So to my part in this: I object to the policy of British Isles removals for what I consider to be political reasons, hence my numerous reversions of the edits of HighKing and others. I would be very happy never to edit another BI-related article (specifically involving addition or removal of the term) provided a similar restriction was placed on other users involved in this dispute. In his comments on this matter, User:Snowded would have you believe that I am 100% at fault and that he, HighKing and others have no case to answer. Such an assertion could not be farther from the truth. These users are at least as culpable as me in this matter. Remember that the root cause of this entire debacle is one single, solitary user - HighKing. If he stopped systematically trying to remove British Isles from Misplaced Pages we would not now be having this debate. So to summarise; I will accept a community sanction not to add or remove British Isles provided that sanction is also applied to the other users whose identities I have noted here. Mister Flash (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

If my suggestion is adopted, then both sides will be restricted to 1RR on the articles-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

It won't work, GD. The BI removals would continue. Mister Flash (talk) 23:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

What would you suggest? GoodDay (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

See above! A ban on all deletion and removals of British Isles by listed editors. Mister Flash (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Howabout a ban on all deletion/additions of British Isles for all editors on Misplaced Pages? I could accept that condition. GoodDay (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Cailil, am I missing something here, or did you refer to me as "being a single purpose, disruptive, wikihounding, edit warring, politically driven account", and then go on to admonish User:LevenBoy for saying that User:Snowded "has us believe that he's whiter than white"? Quite frankly I'm astounded, but I'll let it pass. On the subject of my user page, which you don't like, would you care to assess this one then?. Please note that I do not edit politically. I try to revert the political edits of others. Your suggestion of a site ban for me is completely over the top. I've already agreed to refrain from editing British Isles related articles if others will do the same. What more do you want? The Special Examples page is worthless. It was set up by HighKing because he was forced to do it. He objects to it, and has now stopped using it. It is flawed: it only attracts HK's supporters and those seeking to limit his edits. Other article editors are largely unaware of it. It is no substitute for the article talk pages. As User:LevenBoy states below, this problem will not go away until all concerned agree to stop removing, or indeed inserting, British Isles. You note below that this thread is not about HighKing. Would you object if I expanded it so that it was - adjust title etc and put a notice on his Talk page. Mister Flash (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Flash I don't think you get it. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Your contributions (listed below): inserting unsourced material, removing sourced material, edit warring and wikihounding are not vague conjecture (as LevenBoy's remark about Snoweded was), they are a matter of record. If I said somebody was a pov-pusher but then gave no evidence that'd be a problem. But I've examined your edits and shown the issue.
Yes I would have a problem with you adding HK to this since you've been wikihounding him. Please leave it to uninvolved editors and admins. If there is a substantive concern a WP:RFCU should be opened. Also since you've made no attempted to resolve the dispute between yourself and HK this is the wrong forum to begin dispute resolution.
I agree the Task Force should be examined but I believe that should be left to the community. Also just out of courtesy you should reply to people in the thread that they posted--Cailil 22:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. Where didn't I do that? I generally try to keep the dialogue flowing, but it's not easy here. You really should look at some of the edits in more detail before saying they are inserting unsourced material etc. On the face of it, that may be true, but as I've said elsewhere, the issue of sources and the use of British Isles is just one example of gaming the system, but it's not immediately apparent how that gaming is taking place. See Talk:FWA Footballer of the Year for a classic example of this. You'll also note that on that talk page I did request outside involvement, as I have done in many cases. I add this point just to defend myself against the current accusations. Mister Flash (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Outside view

First no this isn't covered by the Troubles ArbCom ruling or any other ruling to my knowledge because the article sin question aren't about nationalism - but these editors are adding ideological references within them. As an outside viewer and uninvolved sysop I'd say it's pretty clear that 2/0's and Snowded's assessments bear out.
I'd block Mister Flash myself as an obvious Single Purpose Account but for the fact that it might look bad, being that I'm Irish. Nevertheless, I'm not saying editors who disagree with Flash are right or innocent of treating the site as a battleground. What follows is a brief investigation of this issue.
The FWA_Footballer_of_the_Year edit-war is indicative - if this wording is a notable point it should be verifiable. In this single case it's clear that Flash reinstated an unsourced footnote for reasons other than WP:V, WP:NPOV and contrary to WP:NOR. On top of that the user's own user page is highly politicized and openly hostile to the Task force. I believe it contravenes WP:USER, in that it is deliberately inflammatory (in the manner it links to the task force) and polemical (Scottish independence etc).
Below is a review of problematic, politically motivated, edit-warring and/or wikihounding edits made by Mister Flash in some of his top 10 articles

• FWA_Footballer_of_the_Year (diffs above)
• Tin_whistle And Flash's first edit to thois article is in response to High King's
• Cochrane
• Neopaganism Interestingly He'd never edited here until High King did
• 1960_in_rail_transport Flash starts editting here immediately after High King
• Henry_John_Elwes . Once more Flash appears on this page after HighKing edits it
• Sarum_Rite. Again Mister Flash turns up here for the first time in order to revert HighKing.

In summary, it is clear that Mister Flash is not alone in tendentious and disruptive behaviour. A number of edits by User:HighKing and User:Þjóðólfr are equally problematic.
In terms of sanctions, HighKing has contributed positively to the project but seems overly focused on this issue(). It is also clear that Þjóðólfr and HighKing have edit warred with Mister Flash. It also seems that Þjóðólfr and Mister Flash engaged in wikihounding (Þjóðólfr of Flash; and Flash of HighKing).
For this reason I move that Þjóðólfr should be topic banned from British Isles naming dispute topics for 6 months and placed on a 1RR restriction; that HighKing should be placed on a 1RR restriction in all articles. It might also be worthwhile considering a 6 month topic ban from British Isles naming dispute topics for HighKing, but his presence on the task force (and therefore willingness to dialogue) gives me hope. That said it might be worth investigating both of them a little further.
Mister Flash being a single purpose, disruptive, wikihounding, edit warring, politically driven account should be site banned. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and unless or until Mister Flash can commit themselves to the core policies and standards of editing on this site they should be prevented from disrupting it further--Cailil 02:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

In my experience, the only thing the special examples page has managed to do is introduce totally innaccurate, and borderline nonsense, information to articles, which other people have to clean up after the event. It quite evidently only exists to push a POV, 90% of cases presented are fine, it's the other 10% you need to watch to see how bad it is at coming up with an informed and accurate solution to this apparent 'problem' of mentioning the verboten phrase. MickMacNee (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hence my call for further investigation and a potential topic ban for HighKing--Cailil 16:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

HighKing was problematic, but then fully participated in the task force and accepted the agreements reached there (albeit with frustration at times). However the functioning of the task group has been badly damaged by the actions of MisterFlash (occasionally with other support) who has either edit warred against consensus, or indulged in delaying tactics (look the discussions on Sarum Rite for an example). Attempts by myself and others to create some order through the task force have either being met by a total lack of cooperation or downright abuse. We could do with admin support there. I support the proposal by Cailil although I think it is harsh on Þjóðólfr who in general has responded to Flash and has not initiated any change where agreement has not first been established at the task force.--Snowded 06:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

For all those above that are buying into the "HighKing was problematic" statement - can you please provide diffs? From my point of view, this inaccurate view is a victory for the editors that we are discussing. By calling my edits political, part of a campaign, etc, it seems that many editors slowly but surely start to believe this. The task force has been up and running since last September, and before that each and every one of my edits was discussed on the relevant Talk page. I've always attempted to the best of my ability to edit within the policies, to provide references, and to engage in discussions. Labelling this behaviour as "problematic" is very unfair and inaccurate. It may be unpopular with some editors, but that should not be mistaken for my acting in good faith, in a collaborative apolitical fashion. Cailil's suggestion above that I am placed on a 1RR restriction for *all* articles is similarly misplaced and without foundation, and I'm shocked and disappointed that he would not examine my behaviour a little closer. Placing my behaviour in the same basket as that of Mister Flash et al is wildly inaccurate and unfair. --HighKing (talk) 21:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

HK, the very fact that your account was involved in an edit-war anywhere is problematic. The fact that this occurred multiple times at multiple articles only serves to make it worse. Secondly extending the British Isles naming dispute to articles not about the dispute is an issue (these diffs are listed above). Yes Flash followed you to these articles but frankly, it takes two to tango (or in this case 3). BTW, no you are not being lumped in with Flash, you are not a single purpose account. Also I'm not convinced you should be topic banned but the edit-warring speaks for itself--Cailil 21:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Cailil, thank you for clarifying that my behaviour is not being lumped in with Flash - that's important to me. While I reckon that this probably isn't the correct forum to discuss individual articles, I don't understand what you mean by "extending the British Isles naming dispute to articles not about the dispute". The editing and Task Force is not about the BI naming dispute. The British Isles is a legitimate and correct name for the group of islands. I've no problems whatsoever with that. But your comment illustrates how easy it is to see *any* edit involving British Isles as somehow being caught up with Irish Nationalism, whereas my edits are concerned with accuracy (and this I've also stated before). The edits in question are where the term was (arguably) used incorrectly. Rather than debate here we can continue this particular discussion elsewhere - perhaps at the Task Force page. --HighKing (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

For further reference please see this link (HighKing was Bardcom) and this one . Mister Flash (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Mister Flash stop. Adding an old RfCU that went nowhere about HK and adding the AE that most admins are (and certainly the one who opened this section is) more than aware of, only goes further to show that you are wikihounding HK. Then emboldening that post only makes it worse. You will not get another warning for wikihounding. You're being formally advised to disengage from HighKing and the British Isles naming dispute and User:HighKing--Cailil 21:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Cailil, I sincerely suggest you move on, before you start abusing your powers as an admin. I bolded it because it was in danger of being lost in a section that's being edited in several locations. As for the content of those references, they are as relevant today as they were when they were current. They provide background information to this dispute, a dispute which for some reason you fail to acknowledge as being the root cuase of the current debate - and you have yet to answer my question about extending this section. It seems that many admins have tackled this issue over the last three years and all have given up on it, so it doesn't bode well for you. Suggesting that I'm wikihounding HK as a result of my referring to relevant archives is laughable, as is warning me to disengage from the BI naming dispute - it's what this thread is all about for heavens sake! Mister Flash (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Inside view

I've previously been involved in this dispute but I've largely given up on it now. In fact, it's driven me away from Misplaced Pages to a certain degree. It seems that Cailil has not quite grasped the underlying issues concerned with HighKing and his edits. As many editors have noted, HK's edits are political in nature. He has an agenda and is using Misplaced Pages to promote it. It is his actions that are the ultimate source of the problems we encounter. Ask yourselves this question - If Mister Flash is site banned (a wholly disproportionate response) will the problem go away? Then ask this question - If HK is site banned (or topic banned) will the problem go away? I suggest the answer to the first question is 'No', because others would simply take up the reins. I also suggest that the answer to the second question is 'Yes'. It's very noticeable that when HK is not editing, no-one else is bothered about the SE page and there are no British Isles issues. Only when he re-starts does the problem crop up again. To me the solution to this intractable problem is simple - topic ban all concerned. Everyone involved in this has a case to answer, including Snowded who would have us believe he is whiter than white. No need for site-wide bans. Editors such as Mister Flash would simply melt away into background if a topic ban was in place. His editing is pretty much SPA so he'd move on elsewhere, and perhaps HK would as well. LevenBoy (talk) 12:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

With respect to your points LevenBoy. First this thread is not about HighKing (hence my call for further investigation) but it is clear from his history that he edits other topics and is not a single purpose account. Second, please don't cast aspersions about other editors as you have about User:Snowded. Third, Mister Flash has, as can be seen by examining his contrib history used Misplaced Pages as a battleground. Fourth your points would be more convincing if you could provide diffs as evidence.
Over all I do see that groups of users are bringing political disputes to pages that have nothing to do with that dispute. Which is a) getting around the Troubles RfAR ruling, b) creating ideologically driven edit-wars and c) which is not limited to Mister Flash. However this thread is about Mister Flash - and frankly it would outside the remit of this forum to go through and unpick the complex of issues that users have with the Special Examples Task Force. That would require an RfAR which you are free to file. The other option and a suggestion that might be more useful to the community would be an extension of the Troubles AE ruling to the 'British Isles naming dispute' topic (widely construed). This would allow for discretionary sanctions on anyone edit-warring, etc, relating to the term 'British Isles'. To implement such an extension a request to ArbCom would be required. But IMHO it would make a lot of sense--Cailil 15:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Extent the AE Troubles ruling over the BI naming dispute. It can easily be assumed that there's some Irish nationalism & British unionism behind the disputes. GoodDay (talk) 16:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I've said it on multiple occasions - there's absolutely no Irish nationalism from my point of view. And you can see that the work that took place on the task force and Flashes refusal on many occasions to engage meaningfully. --HighKing (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The two are completely separate issues. You might just as well extend the Troubles ruling over the Macedonian naming dispute. Mister Flash (talk) 18:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)I've only just seen this now. I hadn't been informed of this discussion. I arrived here as I was about to make a complaint about Mister Flash concerning this edit on St. Peter's Church, St. George's and Strumpshaw Fen RSPB reserve. Despite his untrue assertion that I was forced to create the Specific Examples page, the truth is that and I voluntarily set it up despite my misgivings about censorship - and in part because I had a good idea that it would end in disruption by a very small number of editors. Despite several warnings about civility, editing without following policy guidelines regarding references, and constantly branding any attempt to even discuss usage of British Isles as "political", his behaviour is not collaborative and he constantly edit-wars against consensus. He was warned in the past to not revert referenced material, but the two recent examples above clearly show that he openly ignores policy and admins. The Task Force has ground to a halt because of his behaviour and stone-walling. Examining his edits clearly shows he wikihounds my edits, and reverts without references or discussions. He takes the opportunity in his edit summaries, on every occasion, to label the edits as political or to unfairly cast any editors motives. In short, this is exactly the type of editor that we simply don't want on this project. He has recently been blocked for edit-warring, but his recent reverts demonstrate that he will simply continue to revert without reason in the future. --HighKing (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

To clarify the purpose of the task force just now. Its sole purpose is to limit, and ideally eliminate, usage of the term British Isles throughout Misplaced Pages; straight up. Mister Flash (talk) 21:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Having seen various disputes in this area, I think it may be best if the community looks at restricting one or both of the editors from adding or removing the term, period. SirFozzie (talk) 23:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Please explain who you mean by "both" (I thought this was about Mister Flash's behaviour - are we extending this?). It might be helpful if you provided some diffs showing example of the other editor's behaviour. --HighKing (talk) 00:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Something strange...

Within the past hour there were some vandal/disruptive edits from User:81.137.221.153, he was not blocked at the time. The IPs contrib page is now showing a current block, but that 3 month block is dated 19 June 2007. Odd. Also odd is that it says the IP was blocked by Luna Santin who does not appear to have been active for about 33 hours. Probably not a big deal, but someone might want to have a look. Wine Guy~Talk 03:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Software glitch? Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly, there actually was a warning to that IP's talk page just before that time, on that date: . It's likely the block was enacted then. How it got reinstated now is a bit of a mystery, and sort of a coincidence that it happened after recent vandalism. Perhaps the software is... learning... protecting itself... ...my god. Equazcion 03:18, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)

• I seem to recall that this happens when an SUL or IP has been blocked on all Wikimedia projects by a steward or global sysop or something (for example due to cross-wiki vandalism). I'm unsure of the details on where this is logged, but it doesn't show up in the en.wiki block log. However, the software knows he's blocked, so it shows the most recent block from the en.wiki block log. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • That seems like a good explanation. Still, mine is more interesting, don't you think? Equazcion 03:32, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)

• Doesn't look like it is a global block . I don't know what you're talking about, HAL. I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen... ... yeah maybe it was a software glitch?;) Wine Guy~Talk 04:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• If it was a global account lock, it could've been oversighted, so you might not be able to find a particular account in the logs. See -- "(log action removed)". Equazcion 15:38, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)

What I'm interested in is what will happen after three months. Will he still be blocked? Also what happens if one where to try and unblock this IP? Rgoodermote  01:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Hmmmm... block has now disappeared. Perhaps an admin issued a 31 hour block and it somehow didn't register properly in the logs? Since I'm not an sysop (or a developer) I'm not familiar enough with what goes on behind the curtain to know if that's even possible. I do have a screenshot of the user's contrib page while the phantom block was in place, in case anyone else wants to have a look. Wine Guy~Talk 18:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Wiki Greek Basketball involved in online stalking of WP users

I saw that this individual created an account (as Yellow2010) at the Misplaced Pages Review and made several posts in which he ranted against several administrators for deciding to ban him from Misplaced Pages. In one of his posts, he said this:

---

This Tanthalas39 guy is such a psycho. I can't even begin with all the things he did to me. Some searches on him show him to be at a martial arts school in _. Someone needs to join up at the school and put him in his place.

wikipediareview DOT com/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=844c8736c6726464cb26bb58466846bf&search_in=posts&result_type=posts

(Did not add direct link, type into browser and replace DOT with .)

---

Apparently he's decided to stalk at least 1 named member via google and posting their personal information on another website (and he's also likely doing this to several other admins he named in a "list" which he also posted on the Misplaced Pages Review). Based on his posts he definitely appears to be mentally unstable, so I would recommend filing some type of abuse report against him via his IP information. His "list" also named these members (though it didn't contain any personal info that I know of):

---

Coffee
Ryulong
Beeblebrox
Tanthalas39
Phantomsteve
Bwilkins
Gwen Gale
TreasuryTag
MSGJ
Daedalus69
Tbsdy lives
Fastily
The Thing That Should Not Be
Wisdom89
ArcAngel
Pakaran
Rjanag
Abecedare
Cyclopia
Rschen7754
Seb az86556
Mjroots
MuZemike

wikipediareview DOT com/index.php?showtopic=28529&st=0 (Did not add direct link, type into browser and replace DOT with .)

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.16.234 (talk) 07:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh for Christ's sake, could we just officially ban this guy already? He's gone through more lives than a cat, and he obviously STILL doesn't get it. What's the holdup? Mønster av Arktisk Vinter Kvelden (talk) 08:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, banning will CERTAINLY stop WGB from acting like this...Doc Quintana (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

According to this he's already banned. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe Misplaced Pages Review is taking care of this in some capacity.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

For ease of viewing, see here.— Dædαlus 09:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Standard Offer"

I am not sure what exactly this is, but with the thing about this and the other situation, I am just going ahead and start this. I propose that the Misplaced Pages:Standard offer is hereby revoked from WGB. I believe he voided this a long time ago (as I recall, there was a suicide threat about this and if law enforcement is envoked, according to the SO page, the offer is revoked. Also under "Variations," any more disruption will cause a six month timer to be reset. I seen it grown by a few years in the past week or two, so just make this go away for good. User:Zscout370 08:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to add to the suicide threat portion of this, the police were called in that instance, never heard back from them so I don't know what was done/said (if anything) to WGB. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 08:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The page said that even if there is a posibility that cops could be involved, it should not be extended or should be revoked. I never received an email about this, but I am sick and tired of seeing this user pop up on ANI on a near daily basis. User:Zscout370 08:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen his name pop up since he was banned. Although, what are generally the reasons by which this "standard offer" is revoked anyway?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry, I posted on the original thread about this (I can dig it out of archives, if needed) but wasn't aware you needed an email on this as well, my apologizes on that. But I did call them and the cops seemed kinda lost on how to proceed, so nothing may have happened, I am not sure as I never received a call back (though honestly didn't expect one). I do agree with you, WGB has tried, time and time again, the patience of the community and the standard offer should be revoked and he should go far, far away. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 08:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Sections "Eligibility" and "Variations" explain on how it can be revoked and the 6 month timer. Even if there is no rule on how to revoke it, I will make one up by coming here. User:Zscout370 08:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

How about we just don't offer it in the first place? I support revoking it because I don't support it in the first place. A 6 month get out of jail free card when you've exhausted the community's patience is absurd.--Crossmr (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It's only for people who behave good during the whole 6 months, which to be honest, doesnt happen that often. ♥Soap♥ 13:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, nobody knows how we'll feel in 6 months about him (or a year, or two). I will almost always disagree with any ban of infinite length (note that indefinite is not the same as infinite, and totally support this indefinite ban). Primary reason? People can change. I think that's the fundamental belief behind WP:SO. In a year, maybe he will have reached out to everyone, apologized, gotten back on their good side, and then he can come back and ask for another chance. Until such time that he has cooled down and at least earned back a little trust of the community, I 100% agree with his ban, but I don't think we should be making decisions that will give others no hope of ever coming back, no matter what they do. If it comes up in 6 months or a year or whatever, then we make the decision about it then, not now. --Shirik ♥♥ 16:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• The standard offer should be totally revoked here. Not only has he admitted to socking (User:Euroleague Basketball Project), but he as also asked at WR for people to advise him on how to sock better without getting noticed. This type of behavior is not acceptable, and we shouldn't think twice about considering WGB permanently banned from Misplaced Pages. — Coffee // have a cup // ark // 19:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
• After all the trouble WGB has caused, I definitely agree with revoking the standard offer. A permanent ban is worth considering, but I'm not sure I'd support applying one to WGB yet. RadManCF (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Y'all, please forget it. WGB is community banned, six months is a long time on the Internet, let it be. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Ban him, he's just turned into another Peter Damian. God, do we need another one of those again?--Coldplay Expért 21:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

He is banned. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• If I'm not mistaken, the "standard offer" is just a general guideline, but not a specific code for banned users to follow if they want to make a legitemate return to active editing. It's a generalized concept - there are some editors who are unbanned prior to the six month mark, and then there are editors who may never be welcomed back to Misplaced Pages. It needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. In this case, due to the off-wiki harassment of various different users on this site, I would expect that it will be well over a year before anybody seriously discusses unbanning WGB. He has exhausted the community's patience. Master&Expert (Talk) 22:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
• If ever there was a case for damnatio memoriae, this is it. Just talking about him (yes, yes, I know, but this is _my_ last mention of this topic forever and anon) gives him what he craves: more fodder for dramatization on WR, more attention, etc. May his name no more be spoken. GJC 05:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• He has a 6-month ban/block. Whether these are lifted after that will depend on his attitude at that time. If his attitude is the same as it has been for the last month or so, it won't be. If his attitude is one of someone who realises that they've done things wrong, but who wants to move on and be constructive, then the lifting can be discussed by the community. Either way, there's a bit under 6 months left until we need to think about it, so let's ignore him and move on. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 11:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Just ignore him. IMHO, this has got to the point where consensus will be against allowing him to return for a very long time. There's nothing more we can do about him on Misplaced Pages, so let's stop discussing him on weekly basis. ≈ Chamal  ¤ 11:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Silverhorse and date formats

User:Silverhorse (talk|contribs) has been imposing his preferred date formats on a number of articles (, , , for example). He has been asked to stop many times (, , , etc.). He consistently ignores all communication and only blanks his talk page. The editor seems to do little or nothing else beyond these lame and unhelpful edits. --Amble (talk) 09:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

And what do i do when i find a page that has differnt date formantsSilverhorse (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Leave it alone, as you have been repeatedly asked. Misplaced Pages day articles go to February 14, not ], which is a redirect-watch where it goes when you click. If it's good enough for Misplaced Pages, it's good enough for you. Surely you can find something productive to do here. Your dating system is not it. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages policy on date policies has been patiently explained to you again and again, with links to Misplaced Pages:MOSDATE, over the last year. Have you read it? --Amble (talk) 17:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've reviewed this user's contributions and talk page history. He seems to be almost solely dedicated to changing dates to a single format, in violation of WP:MOSDATE which says that styles should not be converted without a style-independent reason. He has received, and blanked without any other reaction, very many warnings about this. This is disruptive editing. I've blocked him for 24 hours. If the disruption does not stop after this, escalating blocks should be applied.  Sandstein  22:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I should mention that some of his format changes are OK: for articles pertaining to a specific English-speaking country, it's acceptable to ensure the article uses that country's usual style and spellings. So for WorkChoices, for example, I think Silverhorse's edits are fine. It's imposing his country's date style on all articles that's the problem. --Amble (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sockpuppett

retrieved from Sarastro's page Troll banned Hi, Sarastro. I think you'll be pleased to know that the FirstComrade/BrownEdge/ASMF troll has been banned via WP:ANI. Your replies to him were instrumental as you clearly identified him as HughGal. My interest in him was his Fieldgoalunit alias last year, under which he caused considerable disruption and annoyance. Hopefully he will finally get the message that nobody wants him here. We don't want him in the ACS either, despite his blatherings about it (he was sacked as journal editor and chucked his Wisdens out of his pram: yes, he really did). JJJ (not at home so not logged in). --86.160.125.25 (talk) 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sarastro1"

Clearly JameszJJames is a blackjack sockpuppetMariaSpawasser (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Burpelson_AFB" see also JamesJJames for more personal attacks. Check that JamesJJames returns to editing when Blackjack was bannedMariaSpawasser (talk) 09:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a note, the above account posting has only 3 edits: 2 to Burpelson AFB's talk page and the edit above. I would treat the above account as a sockpuppet itself. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 09:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Even if that were so, which it isn't, it does not condone a)The personal abuse at JamesJJames and b)The fact thaT JamesJJames is a likely sockpuppet of blackjackMariaSpawasser (talk) 12:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Make that 4 edits total. Checkuser, please? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 13:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the abusive posting by a sockpuppet. Why?MariaSpawasser (talk) 14:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

5 edits total. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

7 in totalMariaSpawasser (talk) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) 8 In TotalMariaSpawasser (talk) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The point is the JamesJJames is a sockpuppet of blackjack - 8 In totalMariaSpawasser (talk) 09:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually only 6. If any admin was concerned in the slightest by this, they would have commented. So, unless you can come up with some diffs on why we should take this seriously and also establish you aren't a sock, I see no reason to keep this open. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 09:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

User Mcjakeqcool should be unblocked under Wiki:Give'emrope

I feel that the prospect of User Mcjakeqcool being unblocked under Wiki:Give'emrope should be seriously considered. He fits the bill and is willing for a such motive. JameszJJames (talk) 14:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The guy has a long enough history of problems, and we already have enough to do without having to babysit this editor. Rklawton (talk) 15:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

JameszJJames blocked as a sock of Mcjakeqcool (quack!) - as per it surely should be "Give em enough rope and they'll out themselves."--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I think WP:DENY might be effective with this nuisance. --jpgordon 18:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it won't. His history is a bit unique, and he's not necessarily acting out of a need for attention. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks in Occupation of Baltic States

Please take attention on User Virgil Lasis (talk) who recently accused user Igny of being extremist. He also argues that all Russian sources should be removed from Misplaced Pages because Russia is underdeveloped authoritarian country and heavily edit-warred to remove the sources so the article to represent only "official view of Baltic states". I highly suspect this account to belong to one of the banned or topic-banned participants of the EEML mailing list since it was registered in January 2001, when the ArbCom ruling came to force. He nearly repeats some arguments by the EEML members, namely, arguments that Russian sources should be excluded. He also showed familiarity with some Misplaced Pages's rules such as WP:UNDUE. --Dojarca (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is currently ripe for admin action (what do you want us to do?). To investigate possible sockpuppetry, please use WP:SPI (but remember WP:AGF); to resolve problems involving nationalist conflicts in Eastern Europe, please use the following in this order: (a) WP:DR, (b) WP:CCN, (c) WP:AE per the remedies of WP:DIGWUREN. You should also notify Virgil Lasis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) of this thread.  Sandstein  22:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you at least please as an administrator remind this user of Misplaced Pages's neutrality and civility rules?--Dojarca (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism only account

... or creative coming out? You decide.

Opintial (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 15:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

User was blocked by Jpgordon. Next time you come across a situation like this the best thing to do is to report to Misplaced Pages:AIV. Minimac (talk) 08:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking that the person might be a legitimate good faith human being trying to come out, only in the wrong place. Or else just trolling. Anyway, thanks again and I will try AIV next time. - Wikidemon (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit move war regarding Genesis

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The article once known as Creation according to Genesis was subjected to a move request at Talk:Creation according to Genesis#Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern) (also listed at WP:RM), which concluded with the page being moved to Genesis creation myth. This move was reverted by Til Eulenspiegel (talk · contribs). Til's move was then reverted by Ben Tillman (talk · contribs), and finally re-reverted by Til.

Advice and independent eyes requested. Gabbe (talk) 17:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Please also note the user was warned about inappropriate page moves here, they then removed the notice before moving the page again. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tillman continues his campaign to strip any semblance of neutral point of view from that particular subject. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see what the hubbub is about. Okay, so they had a couple of good albums; almost every band does. HalfShadow 17:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What's the deal with Phil Collins anyways? 173.100.214.133 (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Ha ha. I have amassed a vast number of sources for the theological POV that no part of Genesis meets nearly any definition of "myth" or objecting to its use, but the opposing POV seems to have overruled neutrality. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, I have to agree with Til here. It should'nt be called a "myth" nor should it be stated as fact. We are only here to present info, not to persuade people.--Coldplay Expért 17:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, you need to learn the definition of creation myth. It was established as consensus that the first two chapters of Genesis contained one. There's Hindu creation myth, Sumerian creation myth, and we shouldn't change the MOS for some who don't like the formal meaning of the word. Misplaced Pages is not censored.Auntie E. (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by "consensus"? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(double ec) This was recently discussed in a requested move, which I closed. Surprisingly (to me at least), there was almost no discussion about the merits of moving to "creation myth" in that discussion; people disagreed about whether it should be "biblical" or "Genesis" creation myth. I just tried to move-protect the page to avoid further warring, but that has already been done. Ucucha 18:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• Seresin has reverted Mr. Tillman for reverting a properly-closed requested move decision. I have move-protected the page; please seek consensus through the appropriate channels if you wish to have the page moved. NW (Talk) 18:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you've got Ben Tillman and Til Eulenspiegel mixed up. Til Eulenspiegel was the one who objected with the RM decision, not Ben Tillman. Gabbe (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have reverted the moves. The RM was legitimate; Til may not overrule it just because he disagrees with the closure. There are other methods to resolve naming issues. ÷seresin 18:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Genesis Creation Myth

We had established by consensus that this is a creation myth. Why is one person deciding it isn't and totally changing the title back to the one that censors the word? Auntie E. (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

See WP:STICK. It's over lady.--Coldplay Expért 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

See the discussion immediately above this one. Ucucha 18:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There is a significant number of published theologians both now and going back many decades, who have explicitly disagreed with characterizing Genesis as a "myth" and pointed out numerous objections, but these theologians have been overruled without a true consensus, this has proved inflammatory and has caused incessant protest. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Look, I sympathise with you Til, but the reality is, wikipedia is a place for POV pushers and there's nothing that you can do about it. "Consensus" (AKA, the biggest joke I've ever heard of) has "been formed".--Coldplay Expért 18:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

sub-heading

The POV-pushers have triumphed here, further diminishing wikipedia's reputation. I hope they're proud of themselves. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SOAP. For christ's sake. --King Öomie 04:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ironic way to put it. It's unfortunate that you and Tillman have succeeded in pushing your POV ahead of serving the wikipedia readers. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Request for a "Civility lecture"

Could an administrator please have a chat or give a warning on the use of words such as fraudulent or lie to User talk:Pmanderson? The use of that word on my talk page is totally uncalled for in a minor discussion of the source for a map, namely: File_talk:Catholicpopulationsnew.png#Source_and_accuracy. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Village Pump topic? Administrator not needed? Or does the status of an administrator carry more weight? Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What's needed here is a stern warning to History2007 against tendentious editing and disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behaviour. Which he'll get from me, now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I fully disagree with the tone and behavior of Fut.Perf. The IDIDNTHEARTHAT accusation is not valid since the discussion had only 4 steps, so it does not apply and shows bias. How does one make a complaint against a one sided administrator please? I think administrators need to be unbiased. The other user has repeatedly used the words fraud and lie to refer to multiple other users. And I get a lecture? Another user compared that type of admin bahavior to North Korea judges. I think Fut.Perf. should reverse himself, for being biased. History2007 (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

So disagreeing with you constitutes "bias", while wikilawyering, personal comments and indirect "FutPerf is like a north korean judge" comments constitute the model of behaviour we should all aspire to? I'm beginning to agree that it's you who needs the lecture. Ironholds (talk) 21:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I had not thought of North Korea until another user mentioned it. It was not my starting suggestion. And does it matter that after inspection the map in question turned out to have errors after all and I was right in questioning its accuracy? The debate started by my adding a comment that I was "uncertain about the accuracy of the map". That statement was called fraudulent upfront. A totally unjustified accusation in my view. It turns out that I was right and the map had errors. And in my view IDIDNTHEARTHAT did not and does not apply to me because the discussion had just started. Do I not have the right to question the actions of FutPerf? I think I do have the right to question the accuracy of maps and the lectures issued by admins who seem to be trigger happy in my view. By the way, I have repeatedly asked Fut.Perfect to explain his use of IDIDNTHEARTHAT and he has avoided that question so far. I will have to assume he has no answer, and will have to ignore him. History2007 (talk) 22:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, I should say that the real source of the problem is the lack of technology. I added this to my list of suggestions for better Misplaced Pages technology. One that these features will arrive, for they are already described within Misplaced Pages. History2007 (talk) 01:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue here is simple:

• There is a template which consists of various countries of the world, tinted depending on the percentage of Catholics in that country.
• It has an explicit source for the percentages of Catholics.
• Its File page contains a link to that source.
• History2007 nevertheless insists that it is unsourced, and has even taken to commenting out the link to the source.
• He also claims that it is impossible to verify the numbers, although the file talk page has done so since - and found two or three slips, including one case where the source seems to be wrong.

It is the last two I called fraud. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly so. I specifically said that there was no map source, and I still say that. As I said: "The claimed source for this file has no map, just numbers." So I do not consider that a source. I never used the word impossible. That word appears on the page only once and was used by someone else. As is, there are several errors in the map (a few countries in Africa also seem incorrect). I think this type of no-map source sourcing is error-prone, based on old technology and we have seen how errors appear when it is used. In general PMA, you have used the words lie and fraud several times elsewhere, so please do not deny your affection for said words. There is no reason for using such words. And I maintain that I was absolutely right to question the map's accuracy. History2007 (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

History2007's contention that we somehow may not compile a tinted map of the countries of the world from a list of statistics has been tried on the file talk page, and gotten no traction. (If the original source had a map, we could not use it; it would be copyright violation.) Whether this is disingenuous is another question, which I do not expect to settle here.

I see Future Perfect has already spoken to History2007, and gotten nowhere. Are stronger measures warranted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, I can not agree with that characterization. Here is "exactly" how this discussion started. It started by my saying that I liked the map, and another user (Nancy) said that it was unsourced. Here is the "exact" copy of the discussion:

I do not understand the situation with the map. Personally I find maps very informative in general, be they about churches, supermarkets or product usage maps. There is a source on the map page on Wikimedia, but the stated source has no map, just numbers. How do we know that the numbers correspond to the map? But a map would be very nice if a reliable one can be found. History2007 (talk) 03:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

We had this map in our article before. I put it there. It was roundly tossed by many editors who kept saying it was unsourced. I am not in favor of keeping unsourced information in the article, it will not pass through FA so why keep putting this in there? NancyHeise 15:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually I went to the map page and removed the claim that it has a source. So as is, it is unsourced. I left a message for the person who loaded the map to see what the source was. Have not had a response yet. The data "looks right" but that does not constitute a source. I think if no source is found the map has to go, but I do wish a new map could be found. This current unsourced map was informative to me, and I would hope that a sourced one can be found. As for FA passage, I pay no attention to ratings, what matters is how informative the article is with reliable sources. History2007 (talk) 15:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

So I was not the first person to call the map unsourced. In fact, I liked the map, found it informative, and only questioned its source after Nancy alerted me to it. Hence your argument is not valid at all. My intention had no "fraud" involved, and as the discussion shows I had hoped for a sourced map, or an answer from the user who created it, to confirm the source. And in fact, I did, and still do hope for a good, informative and sourced map. And my hunch about inaccuracies in the map was correct. Period. History2007 (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Nominating a page for AFD while tagged with construction

Update: Epbr123 (talk · contribs) has agreed to withdraw the nomination, if the page is moved back into userspace . An apology is due on my part, as I should have advised Ash to make sure every single sentence on the page is sourced not just to sources listed at the bottom of the page, but more specifically to in-line citations. Cirt (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Update: Another update, AFD was closed by Epbr123 (talk · contribs) . No objections. :) Cirt (talk) 19:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Complaint As the article creator, I am extremely unhappy with this compromise which had nothing to do with me, or any other contributor, but was effectively a quick private negotiation between two administrators, in particular to make Epbr123 feel better about their apparent anti-porn-article deletion campaign and a hastily raised AfD. If there is reason to expect that the article can be improved, then it can be improved while in article space. The grounds for removal have been "special" for no reason apart from potential reasons of effective censorship. As the subject of the article is a well established gay porn film director and the second most credited gay porn actor in the history of gay pornography, there is every reason to expect that notability is already established by applying the WP:GNG guidance. There were no specific BLP concerns that would need speedy deletion and the grounds for the original AfD were PORNBIO which was manifestly incorrect for a specialist genre film director which falls under ARTIST. Rather than resorting to unique non-consensus processes in order to make Epbr123 happy, I suggest the normal AfD process is run for a full seven days, in article space, whilst the article is adjusted until any issues (at least those with some sort of credible rationale) are addressed by a real inclusive consensus process and not by a gentleman's agreement between a couple of admins. Ash (talk) 20:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There was no "private" dialogue, see above diffs. Everything was noted in updates here. I'll defer to other admins regarding the rest of this. Cirt (talk) 21:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not reference private dialogue, just a private negotiation. By that I meant that you did not reach a consensus just an agreement between the two of you which you then forced on everyone else. As an aside, I note that you were having a "private" dialogue on Epbr123's user talk page about this matter, so to say "everything" is here above is not strictly true (this is not a complaint about your chat, just clarifying the facts). Ash (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Please work on further improving the page in your subpage userspace instead of continuing to complain, which serves no constructive purpose. Cirt (talk) 21:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, as nobody seems to care I'll just shut up and you can consider the matter resolved. I guess that I was wrong to ask for the AfD to end properly or expect a preference for a consensus building process over individual admins making the decision on what is allowed to exist on Misplaced Pages based on their personal preferences. Thanks for putting me right. Ash (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Ash, I was even contemplating helping you and working with you to further improve the page in your userspace, but this sort of tone and demenaor and sarcasm is very disappointing. Cirt (talk) 05:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Follow up: Issue is marked as resolved, but I think it's more of a ceasefire. Both sides have good points, but the frustration lies with actual contributors like Ash and myself, who spend most of our time defending our work rather than creating it. For outsiders who may be reading this, censorship is a HUGE problem in WP:WikiProject Pornography. This debate is a mere "tip of the iceberg". -Stillwaterising (talk) 06:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

As this ANI was raised to deal with Epbr123's nomination whilst the article was tagged under construction, and has been resolved, I will raise a DRV for discussion about the non-consensus article deletion which ignored the open AfD discussion. Cirt is disappointed with my tone, which rather misses the bigger issue of a mis-use of a consensus process by more than one admin. As for my frustration, I am not an admin and if some tone flavours my prose this is hardly a serious issue though Cirt is welcome to raise the matter on WQA as an proper forum, rather than deflecting and apparently not hearing my complaint. I have struck the offending comment and I shall try hard to filter my natural sarcastic tendencies. Ash (talk) 06:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I object to this too. The page was moved by Cirt after Epbr123 agreed he would withdraw the nomination if the page was userfied. What I did NOT see was any group consensus (besides unconditional withdrawal of nomination) or Ash's permission. He/she's clearly objecting to these actions and I do as well. Also I asked Cirt to explain his/her closing statement on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Paul Carrigan and he twice completely evaded the question (see User talk:Cirt). Do we need an ANI on this issue as well? -Stillwaterising (talk) 07:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say one ANI was enough for the moment to ensure better behaviour from all parties; with no prejudice for appropriate response on future issues. As I suggested above, I have now raised a DRV to specifically discuss the issue of the article deletion. Personally, I have found Cirt approachable and amenable to discussion. Polite persistence is probably the way forward as everyone involved claims good intentions albeit that their viewpoints are at loggerheads. Ash (talk) 10:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment: There is not much else to discuss here. The matter is now currently at DRV, under Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2010_February_15#Paul_Carrigan. The tone and harsh attitude displayed by both Ash (talk · contribs) and Stillwaterising (talk · contribs) above is most inappropriate and disheartening. I have offered to Ash (talk · contribs) that I would be more than willing and actually love to help out and pitch in and work on the User:Ash/Paul Carrigan page in Ash's userspace and improve its quality there myself. However the tone by Ash (talk · contribs) and Stillwaterising (talk · contribs) is not encouraging of positive collaboration in the slightest. Cirt (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Apart from my struck out comment above, I would welcome concrete suggestions on my talk page from any editor who feels my behaviour needs to change to be a better Wikipedian. My persistance in this matter is as I am a strong believer in the benefits of consensus processes on Misplaced Pages, I apologise if that same persistance makes some people uncomfortable. Ash (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Serendipodous "contemplating suicide"

Serendipodous (talk · contribs) has posted at User talk:Spartaz#Sorry saying that s/he has been contemplating suicide. Per WP:SUICIDE, would some administrators take a look at this and take the necessary action? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I suffer from clinical depression. I contemplate suicide at least once a month. Serendious 19:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not Misplaced Pages's problem. The user is welcome to edit constructively at any time they wish, but their life is their own. Doc Quintana (talk) 23:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

If the user is actively contemplating suicide, then they need to call their local police and have themselves admitted. If they can't, per WP:SUICIDE, we can. A checkuser is available (if you can find one) to get their IP address and make the call themselves. I must also stress to Serendipodous that if you are contemplating suicide, also per WP:SUICIDE, you account can be blocked (not by me, not an admin) as it has been done in these cases in the past. If you are feeling that down, I recommend going into your local hospital and having yourself admitted and getting the help you need. Misplaced Pages can't do that for you, but we don't want to see anything happen to you either. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the importance of this issue, but WP:SUICIDE is merely an essay, to be used a resource but not enforceable policy. Shouldn't WP:SUICIDE be ratified into policy ASAP? Also, contemplating and threating suicide are two separate things, IMHO. -Stillwaterising (talk) 06:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Policy? My god, no. The last thing we should be doing is codifying a requirement for admins to rush out and find checkusers and contacting local police every time someone expresses bad thoughts. This is an encyclopedia project, not a virtual psychologist's couch. Tarc (talk) 15:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Blocked user socking?

N0th1ngwow (talk · contribs) first appeared immediately after Cladu1u (talk · contribs) was blocked, and is editing several of the articles which Cladu1u edited before being blocked. These edits may be perfectly correct, but I have no idea if they are or not, since I don't know anything about Eastern European footballers and stadiums. Could somebody take a look? Woogee (talk) 21:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Blocked per WP:DUCK. As for the contribs, they don't seem obviously vandalistic, though perhaps not specifically in line with the MOS. GlassCobra 09:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

He changed the numbers of caps some of the players have had, I have no idea if his edits were correct or not. Woogee (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Escalating IP problem

My edits on the List of heads of state of Yugoslavia and Yugoslav Prime Minister articles have managed to attract a highly disruptive IP user (94.189.../95.236...), and the problem is now escalating as the IP has apparently decided to spread his own brand of (completely unsourced) POV to a number of articles. I'd like to request aid in resolving the issue. I'd honestly prefer a range-block, since semi-protecting the articles only made him "seek new battlegrounds" for the edit-war. The appropriate course of action is naturally up to whomever lends a hand. The effected articles and templates are:

• Template:Yugoslav Prime Minister
• Prime Minister of Yugoslavia
• List of heads of state of Yugoslavia
• Kingdom of Yugoslavia
• Template:Politics of Yugoslavia

--DIREKTOR 21:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is the dispute here? I don't see that the IP's edits are prima facie disruptive or vandalistic. You seem both to have broken 3RR at least . What is this about? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Sigh... in short, the IP has no idea how the place works, and he won't try to understand. Must be the fourth this month. His edits are not vandalism, but the account fanatically insists on petty nonsense alterations without the slightest idea of how Misplaced Pages works or how the templates he's editing are organized. Forget sources, forget Google tests, consensus... he feels this is the right way and pushes on every day to no end. I am biased in this, but objectively, do not imagine this is some kind of genuine content dispute - its simply yet another Balkans IP with ideas of what's "right", except this one is more persistent than most, that's all. (I could start listing examples but it would be WP:TLDR.)

The whole thing is really getting out of hand and spreading. Cirt helped out, but as soon as his semi-protection was up the IPs returned. PRODUCER's reverted the IPs afew times, they just keep coming back... --DIREKTOR 16:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

For the record, it was yet another IP sock. --DIREKTOR 20:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Propose community ban of User:Monshuai

Monshuai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an extremely aggressive Bulgarian ultra-nationalist with a severe case of WP:BATTLE mentality. Virtually all his articlespace edits are tendentious, usually consisting of Bulgaria-related antiquity frenzy or aggrandization of Bulgarian scientific achievements, with a particular obsession with John Vincent Atanasoff. Examples below:

• Bulgaria antiquity frenzy:

Some more recent examples in the same spirit:

• "Aryan" origin of the Bulgars:

• Thracians:

• Bulgaria Science & Technology:

• John Vincent Atanasoff:

• Various other articles:

• First Bulgarian Empire:

The last two in particular, are extremely disruptive, as the article was put under page protection. The minute it expired, Monshuai rams these edits against all consensus in a deliberate attempt to inflame the atmosphere, and to drive home a point ("This is my house!").

He frequently uses extreme hostility in edit summaries, routinely threatening users so as to intimidate them and have his way:

A particular favorite tactic of his consists of threatening an article that he thinks his opponents hold dear ("If you mess up my article, I will mess up yours"), again as a way of intimidating others. For example here he is mad about the use of the word "disintegrate" with respect to the First Bulgarian Empire, so he goes and makes a POINTy edit to Byzantine Empire , while at the same time lying that he has the consent of myself and User:Cplakidas to make this edit . Here he threatens similar retaliation about the articles on ancient Greek city-states, hoping to intimidate me . Here he does the same with User:Cplakidas .

When there is a clear consensus against him, he engages in interminable rants and filibusters on article talkpages, waging a psychological war of attrition with maniacal tenacity in the hopes of wearing down his opponents. Virtually the entire archive of Talk:John Vincent Atanasoff is a monument to Monshuai's maniacal tenacity. Other good examples include ], ], ], ] ]. Examples with diffs:

(gloats after Martijn Faassen gives up in disgust), (attacks Martijn Faassen for returning),

• John Vincent Atanasoff

• Bulgaria lede - Recently, he has gone on an unstoppable ranting spree to have his antiquity-frenzied way here

. Following this innocuous comment by User:man with one red shoe, note how he deliberatley and utterly contorts his opponent's words, screaming "racism!" (a favorite tactic of his) and playing the victim. Again, an attempt to intimidate. Continued trolling: . He even fights with reasonable Bulgarian editors, as here with User:Tourbillon: . Nothing registers with this guy, it's all hostility, all the time, against everyone, always.

Recently, he has embarked on a campaign to sabotage a discussion on First Bulgarian Empire by filibustering the page with interminable rants about sources, threatening users, off-topic rants, and threats to other articles: . To a large extent, he has succeeded: After a promising start, the discussion has gotten side-tracked and bogged down in the mud. I am convinced that as long as he is allowed to participate, this discussion will get nowhere.

Most disturbingly, his psychological attrition warfare against his opponents WORKS:

Trolling other users' pages is another favorite tactic of his: (tit for tat mr hellas), ("this discussion will go on foerever if it must"), , (kookery on Alison's page), (I will not quit playing the race card), (I will assemble multinational team of admins), . Here, he wants an apology from User:Alison over an honest mistake, and won't let go: .

Administrators are not immune to his loony threats either:

A particularly illuminating example is this discussion with Cplakidas, where he tells him he has 23 sources . When Cplakidas asks to see them , he tells him to find them himself . When Cplakidas asks again , he tells him "no free lunch" . When Cplakidas justifiably feels insulted , what does Monshuai do? Plays the victim and feign offense . This, against one of the most patient, civil, AGF users out there. I have never seen anyone get in a discussion with Monshuai and ever get anything out of it or not end up regretting it. It is impossible to reason with this guy.

He has been the subject of a community ban proposal before , but incredibly got away unscathed even though he had even created a CU-confirmed sock Janelle4elle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) dedicated to sabotaging the discussion at John Vincent Atanasoff. There is virtually no rule that this guy hasn't broken. There are two reasons why I am pushing for a full, indef community ban. One, he has shown zero sign of improvement over the years. Consider his very first edits to Bulgaria and Talk:Bulgaria , with his most recent . At John Vincent Atanasoff, he's been at it for years (Dec. 2007) (Oct 2009). Similarly, an indef-topic ban is a non-starter: As the above examples illustrate, no articles are immune, even those that are way beyond the scope of WP:ARBMAC. Any attempt at discussion is completely futile and will only end in grief for the other party. No, only a full, indef community ban will work against this guy. He has been disrupting wikipedia long enough, time for it to end. Athenean (talk) 22:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have notified the user that they are being discussed. However I believe this ban discussion is more suited for WP:AN. The Thing // Talk // Contribs 22:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Or WP:AE per WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, if the requisite warning has already been issued.  Sandstein  22:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)