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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.106.115.153 (talk) at 04:42, 24 February 2010. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Re: Syncretism vs. Variety - NPOV

Very interesting comments! The rebirth issue keeps coming up. You really know what you are talking about. That's so rare to find here! Viriditas (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

from the perspective of the awareness that realizes emptiness of self, that realization is not realization of emptiness of phenomena. that is a second realization that is "deduced" from the first. so prasanga shows emptiness of self, whereas the resulting realization of the emptiness of phenomena is a second negation not mentioned in the definition of the work that prasanga does http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Prasaṅgika

tell me what you think? i hope that i can be understood... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.97.122 (talk) 23:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC) thanks for the reply, i enjoyed that edit. maybe i can ask you if there's anything i'm stuck with in Buddhism - generally i mean. thanks... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.97.122 (talk) 12:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Paṭiccasamuppāda

A response to your message. Paticca means ground or foundation; Sammupada refers to causation. Paticcasammupada literally means 'by virtue of the fact of causation'. The Pali Text Society Dictionary gives the following:

"arising on the grounds of (a preceding cause)" happening by way of cause, working of cause & effect, causal chain of causation; causal genesis, dependent origination, theory of the twelve causes.

Most Pali translators I know translate the phrase generally with the expression 'Dependent Origination'. This is the standard phrase used in most of the literature published by the Buddhist Publication Society or Wisdom Books USA to name but two of the leading publishers of English translations of Pali (Theravada) literature. You are quite correct when you say that the phrase normally refers to the construction of the twelve nidanas. The reason this is the case is because the Buddha's principal activity was showing people the way out of suffering. He explained that suffering and incarnation exist due to the existence of other factors which are acting as causes. In other words, suffering and incarnation are dependently originated - namely dependent on the existence of causes which are giving rise to them. Remove the causes, he explained, and you remove the effects. However the doctrine of Dependent Origination actually refers to all phenomena in the universe. Everything is dependently originated. This means that everything that exists is connected to everything else in each moment. Thich Nhat Hanh calls this 'Interbeing'. Einstein was unhappy about it when Quantum physics discovered this (see EPR experiment). So properly speaking the twelve nidanas is a special instance of the dependently originated nature of all phenomena. This is not novel - many Buddhist teachers explain the interconnectedness of all things. The 14th Dalai Lama for example.

I was very sad to find the article in the state it was in. It was in much better shape last year. Someone calling himself Ormurin started meddling with it on January 5th and unfortunately it has degenerated from something that was quite passable. The article had remained more or less unchanged for the preceding year or two. Mostly I have retired from editing wikipedia due to having to deal with fundamentalists, upstarts, bullies etc. I am a published scholar and editor in the field of Theravada Buddhism. My work is respected by experts in the field. Thankyou for your understanding. 81.106.115.153 (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Dependent Origination implies mutual interdependence and mutual interdependence gives rise to the phenomenon of non-local effects (an expression borrowed from quantum physics). Quantum theory implies that objects experiencing change locally cause simultaneous changes (effects) to phenomena non-locally - changes, for example, to phenomena at vast distances (billions of light years for example) from the local object (the object of our immediate perception). This leads to certain mysterious paradoxes regarding the nature of causation which I believe the Mahayana logicians were aware of. This is discussed in section four of the current article. As far as I am aware the Mahayana philosophers and scriptures go into this subject a great deal. For example, the Avatamsaka Sutra discusses dependent origination as the arising of phenomena in a mutually interdependent web of cause and effect by means of the metaphor of Indra's net. Here the principle of simultaneous non-local interconnectedness is explicitly advanced by the author(s) in the beautiful descriptive passages. I am sure it is also discussed in other Mahayana literature. If, by 'classical literature' you refer to the Pali Tipitaka then it is true that the subject is not expounded at length due to Buddha's principle of 'Ockham's razor' that characterises Theravada teaching in general (See Simsapa Sutta). So either with respect to scripture or doctrine I don't understand what is contentious. Dependent origination is a general metaphysical doctrine of which the mutually interdependent twelve nidanas is a specific example that just happens to be of vital importance for understanding the path to liberation. 81.106.115.153 (talk) 04:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)