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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ZuluPapa5 (talk | contribs) at 18:05, 24 February 2010 (→Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley: incivility and potential POV ownership are disrupting reliable source verificatio). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:GS/CC/RE

This board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:

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Marknutley

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Marknutley

User requesting enforcement

ChrisO (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

I hold no brief for William M. Connolley; I've said previously that he could stand to be more civil. However, I'm concerned about the constant flow of complaints from editors opposed to his POV. We currently have two WMC-related threads running simultaneously. Someone mentioned above that the latest is the 8th enforcement thread that's been opened concerning him. It should be obvious by now that this enforcement process is being abused for political reasons. This kind of behaviour should be strongly discouraged. Action is needed to send a signal to all editors that frivolous enforcement requests filed in pursuit of a vendetta are not acceptable.

The worst offender by far is Marknutley, who has been responsible for no fewer than three enforcement threads against WMC. The first was "Closed as unactionable. Please do not use this page as a mere extension of content disputes." The second was closed as "No action. All editors are reminded to be proactive in seeking dispute resolution, starting with the talkpage." His latest thread is likely to go the same way, given the absurd complaints being made ("old fruit" is a personal attack? Seriously?).

I suggest barring Marknutley from making any further enforcement requests - it is absurd that he alone is responsible for more than a third of all the complaints against WMC. Every complaint he has made has been dismissed as unactionable, and his latest complaint is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Marknutley has plainly not understood that article probation is not a means of pursuing a vendetta against other editors. He has abused this enforcement process by making repeated unactionable and frivolous complaints. His conduct is that of a vexatious litigant and he should be restrained from making any further enforcement requests. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Notification by Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

{{{Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)}}}

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Enforcement action requested: Injunction against Marknutley making any further enforcement requests.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Discussion concerning Marknutley

Statement by Marknutley

Comments by others about the request concerning Marknutley

Perhaps we ought to remove this section entirely from the template. Just let an uninvolved administrator look this over, and stop bickering. NW (Talk) 01:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Yeah, stifling discussion and dissent is always a great idea. Scottaka UnitAnode 02:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • You've highlighted something very significant with your most recent posts. This page is not meant to hold long discussions about people disagreeing with each others' points of view. It is supposed to allow a small group of administrators to come to a quick decision about a disruptive user. If they think the user is not disruptive, the report will be dismissed. The discussions distract from this; rarely do they ever help. Plus, if an administrator wants to read them, they're still there. NW (Talk) 02:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknutley

There are apparently no shortage of editors who are prepared to bring forward complaints against WMC. Marknutley's complaints contain a high level of flawed accusations. This being the case I hereby ban Marknutley from bringing forward complaints until 12 April. Similar actions against others or after the ban expires may result in broader action being taken but I don't think it would be justified at this time.©Geni 03:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note: The above request was brought at 22:46 on 11 Feb and closed less than 6 hours later. That's unacceptable. I would have protested this result, and in fact I still think it's unreasonable and needs revisiting. ++Lar: t/c 14:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Which was exactly my point in the comment collapsed right above this. This rush to ban people from one side -- and to close even discussions of such bans for being too conentious -- is inappropriate in the extreme. Scottaka UnitAnode 14:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• I would disagree Lar. The reason for the existence of this noticeboard is that several disputes have become so long and drawn out that they need a quick resolution. We don't need to come to a consensus on everything; in fact, I would say that the unilateral actions of one administrator is more helpful in the long run in keeping order on this articles. And if you disagree with the result, contacting Geni might be the better way to go. NW (Talk) 22:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we need to work to a more consistent timing. Some of the dispute resolution attempts here have been long and drawn out too, which is not good. And some have been too short. Balance, and appropriate time, is needed... each dispute is different so hard and fast rules may not work but still. This one felt too short. I may be partly at fault for some of the more drawn out ones. ++Lar: t/c 14:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

ChildofMidnight

IP disruption

Something needs to be done about the disruption being created by the anonymous IP editor "142.x" who was previously discussed in this archive. The individual is currently using the following IP:

• 142.177.158.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I'd like serious consideration to be given to a range block, since blocking this individual's IP addresses has been ineffective thus far. I have become a favored target, with vandalism of my user talk page and disgraceful personal attacks being the current problem. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked the current addy, but only for a short while - since they hop addresses, longer is pointless. I suggest you form up an SPI report, and let someone see if there can be an effective rangeblock. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Either that or seek another CU to do the same sort of checks I did. With the assumption of Ombudsmanship, I no longer can run routine CUs so someone else will need to. However,n I stand by what I said before though, I don't think a short range block is that damaging. Yes it loses some IP editing that isn't part of this problem, but not shedfuls. ++Lar: t/c 14:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I tried to get some help at WP:SPI but received none, so I opened this ANI thread, which resulted in week-long range blocks being applied. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda

Result

Mark Nutley (2)

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Marknutley

User requesting enforcement

Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation edit warring despite warnings, and earlier probational restrictions.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. first insertion of content
2. first revert
3. second revert
4. third revert

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

The specific sanction that Mark is violating is this: Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC, he was informed about the sanctions here

I warned Mark here as well as here .

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Enforcement per the earlier probation warning.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In addition to this is should be mentioned that Mark has previously been edit-warring in contradiction to his (and my) sanctions, which i warned him about here . That previous episode was handled by 2over0 amicably. I've tried to resolve this in private with Mark, by asking him to self-revert - but unfortunately he hasn't been cooperative.

Note: I will be off-line for most of the evening. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Other involved party

Stephan Schulz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Added by Wikidemon per discussion below - Wikidemon (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Marknutley

Statement by Marknutley

Sorry it`s taken so long to get to this, work has been mental.

I was not edit warring, every edit i made was backed up with ever more ref`s each and every time.

WMC says i am POV pushing, no i am not, the majority of the refs show the MWP was global, from europe to china to new zealand.

Stephen also accuses me of synthesizing, this is untrue as two of the refs used actually state the MWP was a global event. This is not me making connections, it is written in the papers i used as ref`s.

mark nutley (talk) 16:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Statement by WMC

• and is one violation of the 1RR parole (re-inserts "worldwide", which is but one word but is the substance of discussion).
• is the second violation of the parole.
• is the third.

Why isn't this an open-and-shut case? Three violations of the parole and an explicit rejection of warnings:

• You are aware that this is a breach of the probationary restrictions that we are under - correct? And that the consequences may be a 1RR permanent restriction for you? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, however i do not believe i am edit warring. If you feel otherwise you know what to do :) See you on the RFE board mark nutley (talk) 15:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't look like MN is prepared to listen to "friendly warnings".

William M. Connolley (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You said that the editor continued "despite" and in "explicit rejection" of warnings. Where are those warnings? The two you mention were done after the last revert. Given that, and the fact that the person giving the warnings is a non-admin and an involved party, I think it would be useful for an uninvolved administrator to formally endorse / repeat that warning before taking any action. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

A note on the substance: MN has been been engaging is tendentious discussion on the talk page, asserting that http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm is a RS. It blantantly is unreliable. Comments like Not according to the ref`s i just used to rewrite the lead, it was global the proof is there, it is pointless to deny it are unhelpful; MN is blantantly POV pushing William M. Connolley (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Everyone has their POV. It looks like a legitimate good faith argument to me. Whether it is a correct argument is a content matter, and should be met with courteous discussion on the article talk page, not behavioral complaints. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

@WMC AFAIK MN is not on a 1RR parole, or if he is then it isn't what is linked to above? --BozMo talk 20:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, he is not, though barely not. Marknutley is warned that further participation in any edit war in the probation area will lead to a one-revert restriction or similar sanctions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I agree: apologies. Only TGL and I are. So, given that this *is* clear participation on an edit war, the obvious santiocn is to put him onto 1RR, as per the parole, yes? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

@LHVU: fine by me (not often you hear that, worth it for the novelty alone :-) though of course I'm not in charge here William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Marknutley

If this is to result in any sanction, Steven Schulz will have to suffer the same fate since he is just as guilty of edit waring. 1st revert, 2nd revert, 3rd Revert Arzel (talk) 16:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, as far as i can tell, Stephan isn't under special probation like Mark and I are. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

So he has a licence to edit war? I sorry, but it is this kind of crap that makes people believe there is a double standard with regards to these articles. His actions we no less egregious than MN from a purely reverting point of view. Arzel (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you reduce everything to spelling, The Communist Manifesto is as correct as On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies. Fact is that Mark has been reverted by several editors by now. He is trying to insert scientific nonsense, originally sourced to a self-published skeptic web site, then by synthesizing several sources, none of which supported his edit, and which did not even support it collectively. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"Fact is that Mark has been reverted by several editors by now" maybe BUT during the actual sequence of reverts listed above the only other editor who reverted him said it was specifically for a wording error which Mark simply corrected after agreement on talk. So aside the probation thing (and of course the question of who has right on their side) it was a pretty even handed dispute. Since two or three other editors have sided with you but perhaps you should have waited for them to arrive first (in an ideal world). --BozMo talk 19:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)j

If the sanctions are going to mean anything we have to enforce the restriction on edit warring. Edit warring by both sides is wrong, but per WP:BRD and WP:BURDEN, as the proposer of new content it's Marknutley's responsibility to gain consensus if his change is disputed in good faith. Nevertheless, this is a flawed report in that the warning came after, not before, the last revert shown. Asking that he self-revert or face a report / sanctions is a little heavy handed. I would suggest a caution to both parties, and a warning to take it to the talk page rather than continue reverting, or face blocks on either / both sides. I have no opinion and admittedly no background to judge whose version seems better supported, but that's besides the point as long as one side is not clearly vandalism, bad faith, copyvio, against a firm longstanding consensus, or any of the other edit warring excuses. We may have the "wrong version" in place, but that's the nature of the process. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, noting the "mitigating circumstances" BozMo describes below. Although approaching the line and perhaps being too aggressive, I think this is worth a friendly caution at best. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikidemon, your point about 'a firm longstanding consensus' above has weight - even back in 2004, there was no doubt in this article about the non-worldwide aspects of the subject. The statement had migrated into the first few sentences by July 2005 and, as far as I can see has been there ever since. To anyone with any knowledge in this area of science, there has been no doubt about this for a decade. In know we're not here to debate content or facts, but this degree of background provides some context. This isn't a 50/50 argument. --Nigelj (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Erm? How is this a flawed report? Both Mark and I are under strict orders/warnings against edit-warring, that was the result of WP:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC. I used rather a long time trying to persuade Mark to self-revert his last edit, so that he wouldn't be violating the probationary sanction (it is linked above). I only filed this when Mark's reply was: If you feel otherwise you know what to do :) See you on the RFE board, which to me states 2 things: 1) Mark is well aware of the restriction 2) He doesn't care - since he is enforcing his version of WP:TRUTH (and thus cannot be edit-warring). I would also like to note that in the case where Mark and I where put on "parole", we were both actively talking, and none of us were above 2RR - so it is rather clear that both of us know what edit-warring is. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It should also be noted, despite the fact that i believe that this is one case where the content issue is minimal, since both Mark and I are under strict orders not to editwar, that while the last section on the talk-page seems as if the content hasn't been discussed, it was already discussed in Talk:Medieval_Warm_Period#Proposed_article_update, which Mark initialized, so Mark, wasn't unaware of the lack of consensus for his addition - and the problem with his sourcing (which is basically original research, by cherry-picking sources, that are in contradiction to the article text and later references by the same authors) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

'Comment regarding Lar's "expand 1RR whenever someone clashes" proposal. Interesting..... So that means that instead of playing nice, and not edit-warring - i should keep my peace until at some point i can use edit-warring as a WMD, by engaging someone whom i do not like, and ensure that they will also be restricted. Hmmmm, seems to me to be a rather strange proposal. Please do check the facts: Mark was editwarring despite warnings, despite previous talk-page discussions, he still doesn't accept that he was edit-warring, since apparently he holds the WP:TRUTH. Mark is/was on 3RR - Stephan despite claims above is at 2RR (one revert per day btw.) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You could look at it that way, if trying to look at things in the most combative way possible was your intent, or you could look at it as an attempt to level the playing field. 2RR is 2RR too many. ++Lar: t/c

Doesn't that depend on content? Mark is trying to insert something that is actually contradicted by the references in the text. He is concocting a synthesis of references... by cherry-picking references that go back to the early 90's, he ends up with a conclusion that is in opposition to what the same scientists conclude later. And btw. i'm not trying to look at it combatively - as i said to Mark in talk, i could have "won" that particular edit-war by 1RR, but i didn't, and i won't... it was already an edit-war by Mark, and i am going to stick to not to engage in such, if i recognize it as such .... no matter how correct or incorrect the content issue is, and i am going to hold to that.

There are to my eyes three things that make this case rather clear-cut (to my eyes). The first is that Mark and I are under special warning not to edit-war (no matter what the content is), the second is that Mark already had done so and been warned for it (on the IPCC page (see my links), and the third is that Mark ignored well-meant advice on this, and in fact is convinced that because he knows the WP:TRUTH he can't be edit-warring. If you are going to make "preemptive" strikes - then make the 1RR restriction for all articles and all editors. I'd support it 100% - and as far as i can tell, most of us do. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I could support 1RR for articles on probation (usual exceptions) but I would want to include an exception for someone new to the page. If they haven't edited since the page went on probation, it is unreasonable to assume they know different rules apply. As soon as they are warned, the rule can apply.--SPhilbrickT 19:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments Re. Lar's suggestion

I find no more polite way to to say it, but "I think it's come to that, but failing that I think whenever we have a situation of someone ON 1RR engaged with someone who isn't and it's brought here, we ought to consider extending the 1RR to whoever it is that isn't (in the interests of leveling the field)" has to be the stupidest thing somebody has said in this discussion for a long time. I can hardly imagine a better way of reducing Misplaced Pages's quality than to "level the playing field" between uninformed and already sanction POV pushers and scientifically literate editors in good standing. If you hand out sanctions indiscriminately, the best possible outcome is that you loose all the more experienced editors and get left with socks and single-purpose accounts. "The Romans make a dessert and call it peace" - let's not forget the ultimate purpose here: To create a good encyclopedia that reflects the best published sources. Everything else is secondary. Civility is only important because it furthers that goal. Making new editors feel welcome is only important in so far as it furthers that goal. ---Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I really don't understand this "level the playing field" proposal either. To my mind, it exposes how utterly retarded the 1RR approach is. Essentially, it rewards troublemakers (who are now legion, thanks to off-wiki recruitment) by hamstringing good faith contributors. Misplaced Pages needs editors who are experienced (and often experts in the topic in which they edit) more than in needs troublemakers. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the above language, which I think skates pretty close to what shouldn't be accepted here, I tend to agree that 1RR all around may not be the best approach. It seems to me that 1RR should be applied to editors when they misuse the discretion that editors are given as a default. This way overly combative editors are limited, but editors who show discretion can have a little more leeway. They shouldn't have much more leeway, but I think a little more in situations like this where there is a lot of socking going on is warranted. Mackan79 (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephan, could you clarify what you are saying? Are you saying the Mr. nutley is a "uninformed and already sanction POV pushers" while you, in contrast, are a "scientifically literate editors in good standing"? Am I correct in that this is what you are asserting? Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't add up. The fact is you can't say "this revert replaced superior content, therefore it was ok." If we said that, then it wouldn't be about revert rules in the first place; we would simply decide who writes better content and kick out whoever annoyed them ("You've been blocked for lowering the quality of this article. You can appeal this block by stating why your edits were an improvement.") Ultimately it has to be about editors' ability to comply with policy (if we're not content just to assume that more editors will support the better content). I guess you can say to hell with consistency if a sham system works, but a.) that will widely be considered unethical, and b.) it therefore probably won't work very well. You want to avoid sanctioning good editors, but to some extent it takes convincing them that they need to play within the system. Mackan79 (talk) 07:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It does appear that Mr. Schulz is saying that some editors are better or "more equal" than others here in the wiki. I hope he will be coming by here soon and stating clearly that he is not alleging that and that he is committed to the Misplaced Pages principles of cooperation, collaboration, and compromise. Cla68 (talk) 07:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• On the real life planet where I live, with its admittedly antiquated university system, it is indeed the case that different inhabitants of the planet (some of whom contribute to the writing of this online encyclopedia) have different levels of intelligence, different levels of training in science and different aptitudes for understanding science. Misplaced Pages principles will alas not change that. Nor is it a secret that there are expert editors on wikipedia. Surely Cla68 is vaguely aware of that? Mathsci (talk) 08:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So maybe we should say that on science articles, science experts are given two reverts to others' one. I'd be fine with that where the experts could all be documented as such, although, come to think of it, it would probably be better then not to let the rest of us edit at all. We might have to change the name.... Mackan79 (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

More significantly, on science articles we should comply with undue weight policy, and not give undue prominence to fringe positions being persistently pushed by some editors. There seems to be an unfortunate idea that by labelling a science article "controversy about this science subject" then fringe views should be given priority, without any evaluation of the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy of the sources. . . dave souza, talk 09:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That's specious. Unit 731 was a scientific endeavor. This does not mean that scientists are uniquely qualified to comment on the controversy surrounding it.--Heyitspeter (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Nor does it mean that Misplaced Pages has any obligation to show every contrarian fringe theory about it. The controversy should be sourced to reliable historians, not to polemics written by campaigners, though they can be cited for their own views if reliable third party sources show them to be historically significant. . . dave souza, talk 10:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
And, indeed, that article is about a breach of scientific and medical ethics which scientists and doctors would have more training and knowledge in than unqualified newspaper columnists. . . dave souza, talk 10:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I was talking on the general principle of Lar's statement, not on the concrete case. However, it is certainly true that while all editors have an equal opportunity to contribute, not all editors and not all contributions are equal, and not all editors should be treated equal. If it were otherwise, we could just block all editors (so they are all equal to User:Licorne). In particular, sanctioning editors who are in a dispute with already sanctioned editors to "level the playing field" without looking at the substance of the conflict is, and I'll (not gladly, but freely) repeat this, a stupid idea. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm ok with you thinking it's a stupid idea. That doesn't mean that it actually is. ++Lar: t/c 16:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Lar is wrong, obviously. Stephan is correct William M. Connolley (talk) 08:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps we could just nominate Napoleon and Snowball to decide who amongst us is more equal than the others. Or maybe Stephan and William would suffice. Scottaka UnitAnode 10:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I see no policy that those infringing policies should be treated equally with others, but do note that WP:NOTANARCHY. . . dave souza, talk 10:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Stephan, I propose that all editors are treated equally, unless the issue at hand is a violation of Misplaced Pages's rules, such as revert warring and POV-pushing. As Mackan points out above, this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and I believe the assumption is that everyone should have equal opportunity to do so unless they're breaking the rules. You seem to be saying that your contributions are more valuable than other editors who have been sanctioned under the AGW article probation, and therefore you don't deserve sanction even though you have been caught engaging in the same behavior for which the others were sanctioned. Is that what you're saying? Cla68 (talk) 12:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Cla, this shows up the problem with BozMo's point "(2) he added more references each time and sought to address the arguments raised". Looking at the three edits Stephan reverted, in the first instance Marknutley changed the lead on a scientific article to a minority view, adding a reference to the website of the fringe non-scientist John Lawrence Daly, in the second he did not add a new source but argued Daly was a reliable source, and in the third case did add references in a synthesis to reach the same fringe position. Blatant pov pushing contravening undue weight, and you seem to want to "level the playing field" to favour fringe pov pushing changes to a science article. NPOV is a basic rule. . dave souza, talk 12:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Right dave, i`m pissed off with your the constant lie about this being wp:synth. As i pointed out in my statement above two of the refs state the MWP was GLOBAL. So stop pushing the line about synthesis ok GLACIAL GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE MEDIEVAL WARM PERIOD and The Medieval warm period mark nutley (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow i was wrong three of the refs said it was global Glacial geological evidence for the medieval warm period still going to stick with your spin about synth? mark nutley (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, content issues belong on the article talk-page. But you may still want to ponder the difference between "global event" and "global warm event". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I know content issues belong on the article talk page kim, but if dave peddles his spin about wp:synth i kinda have to point out he is flat out wrong mark nutley (talk) 14:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you really don't seem to understand that synthesis requires you to reflect sources accurately, and not combine them to reach a novel conclusion. You were edit warring for the lead that "The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) or Medieval Climate Optimum was a time of Worldwide warm climate," yet your references say nothing so definite. The first and third are the same 1993 paper by Grove and Switsur, which "hypothesised" that "The results suggest that it was a global event". Your second reference, p. 134 of a 1994 book by Hughes and Diaz, describes the Grove and Switsur argument, but concludes on pages 136–7 that the evidence "does not constitute compelling evidence for a global 'Medieval Warm Period'" and the concept "is no longer supported by the available evidence." Classic synthesis, advancing a position not supported by the sources. I'm sure your edit was a mistake rather than intentional pov pushing and quote mining was inadvertent, due to carelessness rather than design. I do take exception to your personal attack, calling me a liar, and expect you to strike that immediately. (thanks for striking the accusation) . . dave souza, talk 17:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC) unsolicited clarification, and thanks for action taken. . dave souza, talk 21:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Will i bollocks, Now you accuse me of POV pushing and quote mining because i am careless, am i fuck as like. The paper by mann et al, currently used in the article is also a hypothesis right? perhaps we should remove that, after all a few trees in yamal can`t really be enough to declare it was just confined to the NA can it? If i find sources which say this was a global event then they are just as good as the current sources, get over it mark nutley (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't you realise that WP:WEIGHT requires us to show well sourced viewpoints proportionately to their predominance in the expert literature? If there are significant minority opinions, we show them as such, but we don't overturn current science with a tentative 1993 paper. . . dave souza, talk 18:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)With respect, I think the points here would be clearer if there was an attempt to tone them down. I don't know that this is synthesis, but it does seem to me an overly strong statement based on the sources if Souza's summary is correct, whereas I notice that the competing language does note that it "may" have been broader. Is there a focused discussion on this issue on the talk page? When it comes to enforcement I think that's the kind of thing that should matter. Mackan79 (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's the talk page. An accurate summary based on the above sources would be that a global warm period has been hypothesised, but the evidence is not strong and there could have been local warm events at various times. That's just based on these sources, and more modern sources are cited in the article. The current state of the article isn't satisfactory, my hope would be that it could be improved to show the current state of scientific ideas more clearly, with a more cooperative approach on the talk page to reflecting majority as well as minority views, . . dave souza, talk 19:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess it's a lot to ask, but I was just hoping I'd look and see a very clear refutation of one position or the other. I see some of that from Stephan Schulz, but mostly I see curt and dismissive retorts going back and forth. It would be nice if one could convince editors that it's worth their time to clearly explain their stances so that they might actually resolve some of these disputes, at least for a time. I don't know if there's more to this, anyway, but I would say in that particular discussion mark nutley isn't representing his views especially well to have kept reverting. Mackan79 (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, don't think it was ideal. Unfortunately, mark seems to have been convinced of The Truth and given the bad advice that all sources are equal if they are published by a reputable publisher, no matter whether or not the author has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. You're right that the focus should be on explaining as much as possible. Unfortunately some editors don't want to hear about weight, so it's a learning process. . . . dave souza, talk 22:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Question about content

Perhaps others see it differently, but it seems to me that if someone presented a clear analysis of how one or another editor was adding material that clearly misrepresented the source, or clearly went beyond the source, and kept inserting it despite this being explained clearly by other editors in a fully reasonable manner, that it would be grounds for sanctioning the offending editor without having to focus only on who reverted how many times. Basically, if it is quite easy to show that one editor's position is completely unreasonable based on the given sources, but they keep reverting, I think others here would respond to that. I believe it's under the presumption that there are reasonable views on both sides that we would generally say editors should not be reverting. Personally I don't respond to the idea that one person is an expert and the other isn't, for several reasons, but I would respond to clear evidence that someone is not doing an adequate job with the sources. Perhaps some feel that issues of content shouldn't be raised here, but I'd like to suggest that if done very clearly and succinctly, focusing on evidence that discussion was not working, it could be persuasive and useful. Mackan79 (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't respond to the idea that one person is an expert and the other isn't - curious. In the real world, the concept of "expert" is widely recognised. People go to "experts" to have their medical conditions treated, for example William M. Connolley (talk) 22:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but in the "real world" the experts would be chosen via a deliberative process, and certainly the public wouldn't be involved. The issue isn't that the public knows as well as experts, but simply that Misplaced Pages isn't set up to be expert-controlled. It has its strong points, nonetheless. But of course experts should be in a strong position to explain to competent non-experts why someone is simply not doing an adequate job of editing in the area, which is one of the many reasons expertise is needed. Mackan79 (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The difficulty in this area is that mainstream media are convincing many editors that all scientists have been caught lying and The Truth comes from contrarian bloggers. Too many non-experts are incompetent and won't listen. Disclaimer – I'm not an expert, and make no claim to competence but I will listen and investigate. . . dave souza, talk 22:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You may not be an expert in climate science, but you might be an expert in spotting incompetence :) -- Scjessey (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Response to Lar's 1RR confusion

The sanction that both Mark and I are under is this: Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive2#Result_concerning_TheGoodLocust.2C_MarkNutley.2C_WMC, it should be clearly marked in my filing for enforcement - which i assume is being read in full? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 08:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment to LHvU Stephan is to my knowledge not under any warning that further editwarring would result in 1RR.
Further, your "gaming" comment here seems to ignore that a status-quo/prev-consensus version always does exist, and that the onus of gaining consensus lies on the contributer of new content. Had the roles been reversed - Stephan trying to push content, and Mark reverting to SQ/pC - then your comment would have some merit (my 2¢ on this), otherwise you end up with reverse "gaming", by the person already under restrictions (as i pointed out to Lar). Please note that the reason that i'm persistent here is that Marks and my restrictions are the same, and thus this particular discussion has direct relevance to my own situation, by setting precedence as to what is and what isn't part of the expanded probation enforcement warning that we both got --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. See below... I'm proposing that as a result of this enforcement action, MN be taken to the next level (which in MN's case I think means from: warning that the next infraction means he's on 1RR, to: actually being on 1RR) and that other participants also be taken to the next level (which in the case of SS I think is from: general abjuration to play nice to: warning that the next infraction means he's on 1RR)... If I have people's levels wrong I'm subject to correction of course, but that's the general idea. All participants ratchet up. Which levels the playing field in the long run. ++Lar: t/c 16:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If you think that three edits over a period of 3 three days, two removing an acknowledged bad source (with a descriptive edit summary) and the third removing unqualified OR, all supported by a discussion on talk that started before the first of my reverts, constitute "edit warring", we have very different definitions of edit warring, and you seems to be very selectively eager to enforce yours. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that last bit is an unhelpful comment. ++Lar: t/c 16:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Response(s) by LHvU (not part of "Result" consideration)

To KDP; This seems part of the dichotomy of having two apparently sometimes conflicting policies - WP:BRD and WP:3RR. The latter should not need exist were the former strictly adhered to, but there seems to be this dispensation allowed for "editors in good standing" to edit war in good faith for a bit before trying to see if there can be a consensus. Reverting (either within BRD or 3RR) to the previous version because it "had consensus" is not always sufficient, references to policy or related discussion is preferable. It is the use of ones ability to revert under 3RR, when the other disputant is under restriction, without further explanation or rationale that gives the appearance of "gaming" the situation. In your case, thoughtful/nuanced edit summaries indicating why you are reverting someone again, regardless whether they are under a restriction or not, may preclude you from being restricted under the existing warning. As long as you can show you are not "warring", then you are permitted some reverts. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

But that doesn't scan with the case where Mark and I were warned/enforcement restricted. Nor does it scan with the comments in the admin section for this case. Nb: Please check and verify the talk-page for MWP for the content issue - while it seems as if this hasn't been discussed, there are previous discussions (with Mark) on exactly the same issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean this kim? were both yourself and short brigade harvester agreed the MWP was global? mark nutley (talk) 12:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark, this is not the place for content issues. But you may want to ponder whether agreeing that the MWP was a global event, is the same as saying that the MWP was a global warm event. The trouble is that you are missing the nuances. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have amended my comments in the admin section, to better reflect my views above. Does this suffice? As for the specifics of the TGL/WMC case, I didn't comment on the particulars then since, as I noted, I came late to the matter. Upon review, I note that BozMo states we deal with matters on a case by case basis - and I agree that if an admin feels the current case is served best in a manner which ignores or modifies a part of an earlier decision, then they should advance that proposal. As said, WP is not a court of law where precedence forms part of a legal framework - and while it is useful in consistent application of sanctions and restrictions the nature of a Wiki is that as soon as something that indicates a better way of doing things appears then we are at liberty to try that option. The previous conclusion still applies to that matter, but might not hold us to the next (although it may be decided that it will in a subsequent matter). It does make things complicated, I realise, but perhaps if everyone edited to the idealised ethos of WP we would not need to tie ourselves into these knots? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

New problem: serious incivility

The problems with this editor just jumped up an order of magnitude. Please note these edit summaries:

• "piss off"
• "stop editing my post you twat"
• "and again piss off"
• "moron"
• "still being a moron"
• "stop editing my fucking post you shit"

I recommend an immediate block. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, i see you don`t bother to say why i got angry? If my post had not been edited and when i reverted with "do not edit another users posts" only to have my post edited again, and again, and again even when hippocrite is told to stop editing my posts mark nutley (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no possible excuse for that kind of behavior. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a brief note that Mark has now apologized for his outburst after what he felt was a provocation. Perhaps a review of of Scjessey's own mental state in that same thread ( and ) would be in order? --GoRight (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You have to be kidding, right? The diffs you present against me are perfectly acceptable. I suggest you are trying to deflect criticism of Mark's egregious behavior by attacking me instead. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hang on a minute, this is being dealt with so why is it also being brought up here? mark nutley (talk) 20:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Because this is the appropriate place for it, and because I was already deep in the processes of compiling the diffs before I noticed (and added) the Wikiquette alert. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

If he had not kept messing with my post for no reason other than "I don`t like that blog" then this would not have happened. Especially after i had requested him not to. mark nutley (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

NOTICE: This notice provided as a service for those who may have missed my previous attempts to close this section. Please note that this section is off topic with respect to this enforcement request, as such it violates this request, and that Scjessey is willing to edit war over it. Please take this into account and take whatever actions you deem appropriate under these circumstances. --GoRight (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

In your opinion. I interpret it differently. Plus you made 1 attempt, so my 1 revert is hardly "edit warring". It's not clear why you have felt the need to insert yourself into this discussion anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My interest is simple. I saw that Mark was heading in a bad direction, I told him so on his talk page, as a result he apologized which was the right thing to do, and so I think that should be the end of it. Hence my note above about the apology and my subsequent attempt to close this section. --GoRight (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are attempting to close this section, but you should not be. No-one views you as neutral in this. Leave closing, or not, to the neutral admins William M. Connolley (talk) 21:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Both parties blocked, per my rationale at Result concerning Marknultey and Hipocrite blog post dispute at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident. Since the incivility was dealt with a WP:WQA I feel that aspect may be closed - brickbats and buckets of flour regarding my actions regarding the revert war may be thrown there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

(as nonadmin) I commend you for taking action, and certainly think this was something blockable... or turning it around, that both editors need a cool down. Best if they can self-administer their own cup of tea. I'm wondering if it's a little stale, though - how long has it been since the last objectionable edits? Oh, well. I think if either or both say they're over it and won't resume, there shouldn't be any problem with unblocking. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Although not supported by policy, I think sometimes it is appropriate to use blocks for punitive reasons, rather than just for prevention. The goal, of course, is to correct the behavior of the editors in question, which I guess then makes the block preventative, doesn't it? Cla68 (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Even if the matter is stale, a block is preventative because the parties will realise that violations will be sanctioned and not be deprecated by the passage of time - thus providing a reason not to do it next time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknutley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Hmm. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances (1) it was over a few days (2) he added more references each time and sought to address the arguments raised (3) he was on talk (4) one of the reinsertions appeared to follow agreement by the person on talk who had reverted him, since the reason given was only ambiguity. --BozMo talk 19:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Would it be sufficient to place him on the same 1RR limitation, as previously warned, as other editors are already under? WMC appears to think this would be appropriate, and I consider it fairer to keep those who are in dispute with editors already under restriction to the same prohibitions - without necessarily determining who is the more wronged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Please forgive the naive comment, but shouldn't everyone be on 1RR (per article, or at least per specific content passage)? Why don't we just ask that of everyone who has been properly notified? - Wikidemon (talk) 00:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally I would support blanket 1RR for all articles on probation, with the usual exemption for obvious vandalism, bad faith, socks. --BozMo talk 14:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's come to that, but failing that I think whenever we have a situation of someone ON 1RR engaged with someone who isn't and it's brought here, we ought to consider extending the 1RR to whoever it is that isn't (in the interests of leveling the field). In this case, Steven Schulz probably should be added, if we don't go to a blanket 1RR. ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

@Lar. AFAIK neither were on 1RR. --BozMo talk 19:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Mark Nutley wasn't on 1RR? I'm confused by what KDP is saying in the case presentation, then. There seems to be an assertion that they were. ++Lar: t/c 05:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

He is under warning that further edit warring would result in 1RR - same as with KDP - per here . LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Then I revise my suggestion.... look at all the participants in this war. Then, take MN (and whoever else was warring that was warned alrady) to 1RR and take whoever was warring who HASN'T been warned already to "you've been warned, next time it's 1RR" state. ++Lar: t/c 16:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Only MN of those warned (i.e. not KDP) was edit warring, so I think my proposed wording - including bringing new accounts up to speed promptly - satisfies your suggestion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Or.. We could simply rewrite WP:3RR... I don't think we can, per WP:AGF, place anyone under the 1RR limitation without an evidenced complaint that they have edit warred - but if that complaint does indicate that they warred with someone who is already restricted then they get the same restriction by default; even with the best AGF over intent, using your own ability to simply revert when the other party cannot appears as gaming the system. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I am withdrawing from this one: basically I don't have time to look at Nutley's behaviour properly. --BozMo talk 13:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Proposed wording Until 2010-(date)-03 Marknutley is restricted from making more than one revert to any article in the probation area in any 24 hour period. All current and past editors of the articles under prohibition and not under restriction are advised that any further edit warring will result in the imposition of a similar restriction. New editors found to be edit warring are to be warned of this restriction as soon as possible.
  I prefer dealing with the named individuals in a request for enforcement, and am only willing to expand it generally to others. If there is another account that is felt to be also needing enforcement, then there should be a further request. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note re "edit warring" and 3RR - my view that blind or reflex reverting is edit warring, whereas a revert with a good rationale noting policy or consensus is permissible - although it is recognised even this AGF interpretation can be abused. If found so, then it is edit warring. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I strongly support including analysis of talkpage and other discussions in any examination of edit warring. A 3 month 1RR restriction across the probation area for Marknutley is warranted in this case. I am not sure about the phrasing of the rest of the proposed close - do we intend to make a 1RR restriction the standard response to edit warring (absent mitigating or exacerbating circumstances), or is there something more here? - 2/0 (cont.) 07:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Defaulting to 1RR restriction in the advent of further edit warring by the editor concerned is my intent, mostly to discourage reflex reverting of any party who is already restricted (because sanctions are preventative and not punishment, so we are not here to allow "naughty" editors to be reverted with impunity) but to require properly rationalised reverts for those not restricted. By limiting the opportunity to "edit war, even in good faith," it might be hoped that editors will attempt further discussion before changing the text again. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Marknultey and Hipocrite blog post dispute at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident

Both editors blocked 24 hours. Hipocrite for part removing/replacing another editors talkpage comments, in violation of WP:TPOC, without permission, notice to the other editor, or discussion/consensus. Fuller rationale provided with block notice at editors talkpage. Marknutley for edit warring on the same issue, while aware they are imminently to be placed under 1RR restriction for the same issue. I consider my actions appropriate under the provisions of the Probation, but will not contest any other admin amending or reversing them - I only request that both parties be dealt with equally in this instance. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note, both editors subsequently unblocked by reviewing admin per Hipocrites appeal and various undertakings given. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning William M. Connolley

User requesting enforcement

Cla68 (talk) 09:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. personal attack in an AGW article talk page discussion

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by 2over0
2. Warning by LessHeard vanU
3. Reminder to be civil by Cla68 (not an admin)
4. Reminder to be civil by Enric Naval (not an admin)
5. Request to be more civil by Thegoodlocust (not an admin)
6. Request to be more civil by Prodego
7. Request to be more civil by Tony Sideaway (not an admin)
8. Request to be more civil by Nsaa (not an admin)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Whatever admin action will correct the behavior in question.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

WMC has been asked to strike the comment in question, but has refused. I listed all of the diffs in the "prior warnings" section above to show that William M. Connolley (WMC) has a problem with following the civility policy. Those warnings and requests above are only for the last two months. I expect that if I was to go further back in his talk page history, I would find a similar pattern repeating itself.

Besides the recent PA by WMC that made me decide to bring this to admin attention, WMC has personalized other talk page discussions recently and . To state the obvious, personalizing talk page discussions and denigrating other editors is against our civility policy. The reason we have that policy is to facilitate collaboration, cooperation, and compromise, which is how a wiki is supposed to work. WMC's inability or unwillingness to follow this policy is unfortunate, as it causes uneccessary hostility in article talk page discussions and inhibits collaboration. I didn't react to his baiting on the Lawrence Solomon page, but I found that comment, and other similar personal comments that he makes about me and others, extremely counterproductive. Cla68 (talk) 09:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning William M. Connolley

Statement by William M. Connolley

This action is ill-conceived. The problem is ZP5; I think you should learn to make coherent valuable content edits is valuable advice, which he (and indeed other people watching here) should ponder. A glance at ZP5's contributions shows a *total* (and I really do mean total) absence of useful article-space Cl Ch contributions from ZP5, but an awful lot of barely coherent talk page chatter.

In fact, even anyone can find even *one* unambiguously valuable climate-change related article space contribution by ZP5 (even something as trivial as reverting vandalism) I'll be happy to strike my comment.

William M. Connolley (talk) 09:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: I've just noticed some more weirdness in Cla's statement: I didn't react is a link to... Cla reacting. Shurely Shome Mishtake? But that comment by Cla is instructive: it shows how a perfectly good-faith edit can be mistakenly inperreted as baiting. Look at the context: LS complains about his bean business being mentioned. AH says it is embarassing (why? don't know; never mind) and Cla says the only source for is is LS. I agree; the only source *is* LS. So what? Is LS not a RS about his own activities? Perhaps not. But for Cla to interpret my comment as "personalising" the issue is very odd indeed. Note also taht Cla is double-counting in an effort to get the "bad comment" count up; he has linked to that twice. Similar comments reply to his other "personalising" diff William M. Connolley (talk) 09:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@ZP5: was there something about User:William M. Connolley/For me/RFC-ZP5 that you found offensive? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

@World: if you're interested in gobbledegook, try User:ZuluPapa5/WMC-RFC

Statement by ZP5*

WMC has chosen to add further injury to insult. Normally, I would gladly accept a simple apology in suffice to avoid this specific PA enforcement request. (Even after many others have confirmed prior PA toward me my by this editor, in an wiki etiquette complaint and with WMC talk page warnings). My talk page and block log are littered with the examples of this editor's attempt to collaborate by waring. Any attempt, I make at contribution to the Climate Change articles is quickly reverted and then the talk pages turn into bickering with PA. It's called POV ownership obstruction. This whole General Sanction was created because of this indignant reverting behavior by WMC and team. It's a distraction and has the unnecessary effect of prohibiting content creation. I said elsewhere it's time to consider ZERO RR sanction for this editor. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Post note ... I welcome constructive criticism on my article contributions elsewhere. This is not the place right now. Thanks Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Prior WP:WQA complaint on WMC's PA toward me. Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive77#Personal_attack_advice suggestion was STUCK. Use ANI or RfC/U. This forum is the equivalent. It should stay here, unless an RFC on the editor is in order. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley

• Cla68's complaint seems without merit and not the correct way to use this noticeboard. Cla68 must surely be aware that there have been numerous requests on this page concerning WMC, many of which have been dismissed. Why did he use the language "proverbial straw" in discussions with ZuluPapa5? Mathsci (talk) 09:49, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• The complaint most certainly is the correct use of this noticeboard. It is a specific issue with diffs to support it. It may be that no action is taken but that should not be used to stifle debate. Weakopedia (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• See below. I agree this is an apppropriate use of this noticeboard, and the complaint has enough merit to bear investigation. Cla68 does not bring matters up frivolously. ++Lar: t/c 15:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• As I advised WMC, his reply to Zulu Papa 5 ☆ was inappropriate. It was badly phrased and lacked supporting evidence, and did not allow for the possibility that ZP5 makes useful contributions to other areas ZP5 edits. Having said that, dealing with ZP5's persistent refusal to accept policies is frustrating. For some time now, Zulu Papa 5 ☆ has been pushing for the inclusion in the main IPCC article of an unwarranted promotion of an unreliable fringe book. Cla68 has supported that inclusion, see this and subsequent sections, and despite being shown that its author is unreliable, has stated his intention to add citations to the book in various AGW articles. Cla has repeatedly and tendentiously argued that "The book is published by a reputable publishing house. That's all that is required." As I've now pointed out shortly before this complaint was filed, Cla appears to have forgotten the opening paragraph of the policy he repeatedly asked others to read. He's an experienced editor and I'm surprised at his persistent misunderstanding. He even seems to argue that an unreliable source has to be shown defective in every specific claim. This has been enabling Zulu Papa 5 ☆'s actions which are of the kind described in Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing. Uninvolved administrators are requested to bear that essay in mind when dealing with these allegations of incivility. . . dave souza, talk 10:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC) amended 10:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Not that there isn't a problem with Dr. Connolley's civility, which is exemplified by the attack on Zulu Papa 5 on talk:Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the debate that provides the context was a very frustrating one. Some editors were convinced that the verifiability and neutral point of view criteria could be satisfied by any book published by a reputable publisher, and steadfastly rejected cogent arguments on undue weight and the documented unreliability of the author as a scholar of science (including a reprimand from the Press Complaints Commission on his reporting on exactly the issue of climate change), labelling this as "obstructionism."

So I want this to be taken into account:

• My own less than tactful descriptions of the author's failings (comparison to a creationist scholar was bound to inflame and I should have realised this).
• Cla68's repetitive dismissal of objections to inclusion based in policy as "personal opinion"
• Zulu Papa 5's repeated dismissal of objections to inclusion based in policy as "obstruction", "source suppression" and "duplicity"
• Zulu Papa 5's extraordinary reaction to the discovery that the author admitted to lifting a quotation falsely attributed to John Houghton from some website on the internet, and included it prominently on page 1 of his own book with the false attribution, despite searching his own copy of the attributed source volume and being unable to find it. The author grudgingly admitted his error after being asked to do so by the editors of his newspaper, which he had used to promote his book. The author's excuse was that he had been "misled by the internet", which alone raises worries about his commitment to scholarship. Zulu Papa 5's frustrating response: "t's confirmed he checks his facts for accuracy. The quality process is not perfect but it exists for continous improvement. We can have faith in it to be reliable"
• The final straw: Jprw and Zulu Papa 5 claim that criticisms of the author's unreliable scholarship--which came from, amongst others, the Press Complaints Commission, the Health and Safety Executive, and some qualified and reputable mainstream science journalists who reviewed the book--amounted to a biographies of living persons violation.

None of us come out of this looking good. I suggest that we look at the thread and try to work out how it came to be such a sick mess. --TS 10:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support The general sanctions are there for a reason. Nowhere do they say that an editor may ignore those sanctions if they feel the other guy did so first. WMC has violated those sanctions. Open a section about ZP5s comments if you wish but do not use them as an excuse for ignoring this complaint. Weakopedia (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

  What are you supporting? Please note that nobody is excusing Connolley, but there is a lot of context that points at other problem behavior. --TS 11:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, let's see. This is a section about the enforcement of sanctions. So I would be supporting the enforcement of sanctions. If nobody is excusing WMC then there is no need to negate the sanction enforcement in his case just because there may be 'other problem behaviour'. Deal with the matter in hand and then move on to the other behaviour. The sanctions don't say 'these sanctions don't apply if you feel someone else started it'. Regards. Weakopedia (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This probation is supposedly about improving the editing environment, and enabling pov pushing while cracking down on the civility of those trying to maintain article content policies will increasingly poison the editing environment. I value politeness, but remember that incivility includes "lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information". Repeatedly asserting false information despite being shown that it is false has the same uncivil effect, but of course assuming good faith we must accept that editors doing that do so unknowingly. Doesn't help the editing environment, and wastes a lot of time. . . dave souza, talk 17:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is about WP:V with WP:RS ... true or false comes from that. Now WP:CIVIL is how the verification should proceed. And WP:OWN stemming from copy-write concerns is an issue too. This discussion is about how WMC's incivility and potential POV ownership are disrupting reliable source verification. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 18:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment While I haven't read all of the diffs provided by dave souza or by TS, and it is easy to be sympathetic with the frustration, virtually all the points are content disputes. Those content disputes may require the help of univolved editors, mediators or sysops, but this is not the forum for that. I recognize that TS is intending to put the alleged incivility in context, but let's not lose sight of the mandate of this forum - addressing alleged violations of probation. "incivility" is covered - while strongly worded content discussions, even one's that might misunderstand policy, are not covered.--SPhilbrickT 13:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Do not support sanctions - as to the substance of the incivil remarks - weak beer. In another context, worth ignoring or possibly a note to user talk. In this probation environment, WMC should know better. Not worth any formal sanction, but maybe a friend could whisper in his ear - "You know, this isn't helpful".--SPhilbrickT 13:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment (realising that doing so may mean that I am not permitted to edit the admin section below...) Why not take it to WP:WQA like Hipocrite and Marknutley did? If they determine a PA or at least incivility, then that finding can be brought back and a determination made per the probation and WMC's extended civility restriction (am I correct in thinking there is one? This is an aspect that makes these pages so tiring to patrol) and if they say no then there is nothing to review. If they refuse or cannot make a determination, at that point some admin will have to review the case fully. Is this a worthwhile course of action? LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd be disappointed if you were not permitted to edit the admin section, particularly as Lar has also edited this section showing a supportive attitude for Cla68 in bringing this matter up. . . dave souza, talk 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment re Lar. Rather than taking a 'no smoke without fire' stance, isn't it more likely that this is an organised campaign by anti-science bloggers and many right-wing political commentators to help to rid WP of its science bias? The question then is, do we want WP to have a science bias, or a science-denial bias? Or even a 'balanced' viewpoint that maybe science is tosh, or maybe its not? --Nigelj (talk) 17:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It would also be helpful to have clarification on the "shooting the messenger" comment. I've not seen any proposals to shoot or sanction anyone other than WMC, though I'd hope that others will be encouraged to improve their behaviour. . . dave souza, talk 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

By "others" you mean to include WMC too, which this request is about, right?

@Nigelj - you present a false dichotomy. I see no reason why we can't have both a civil editing environment and a proper deference to established science and indeed there are separate policies in place to ensure both. Regarding your accusations they are irrelevant to this case. Both Cla68 and ZP5 are long time editors who contribute outside of the AGW space. JPatterson (talk) 18:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning William M. Connolley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I am tired of seeing complaints about WMC. I realize that some of the admins that frequent this board tend to think that the many complaints are primarily due to some fault with the complainers, rather than with WMC (although many do acknowledge various issues with WMC's behavior). I am afraid I do not agree with that viewpoint, given the sheer number of complaints and the wide variety of folk bringing them... and I think that if WMC can't play strictly within the rules, sterner measures are called for. What that means exactly I am not sure but there is a problem here. And it won't be solved by shooting the messenger. ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)