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Biophys
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Biophys
- User requesting enforcement
- --Russavia 19:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Biophys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground
- Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned
- Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Despite several prior sanctions and warnings, Biophys has in recent months massively conducted edit warring and POV-pushing. When he has a spare minute he now proxies for an indefinitely banned editor. In the most tenacious revert war, Biophys's only source, which he aggressively tries to enforce as the truth, is a known propaganda website of Islamist anti-Russian extremists, in spite of protests by several users.
Background
Biophys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a persistent POV-pusher and edit-warrior who has been blocked several times and whose disruptive behaviour has been discussed in several reports on admin noticeboards:
Many of these reports resulted in Biophys being sanctioned and warned, yet Biophys has chosen to ignore all these warnings and has continued his heavy disruption. In addition, Biophys has already been sanctioned with a 1RR per the WP:DIGWUREN sanctions. . However, the 1RR sanction was later lifted for the technical reason that "no prior warning was given." According to a June 2009 finding by now arbitrator User:Shell Kinney, Biophys is a regular edit warrior. He is also listed as one of the warned editors at WP:DIGWUREN. Biophys has also been discovered as a member of the WP:EEML, and participated in the cabal's campaign of disruption.. Further evidence of disruption caused by Biophys can be found at WP:EEML/Evidence. Several members of the EEML were found by ArbCom to have proxied for banned users, so Biophys knows that proxying is not allowed. Biophys has been proxying for the community banned User:HanzoHattori in several articles (see evidence below).
Edit warring Massive edit warring at Russian apartment bombings
Biophys has already been blocked twice for edit warring on this article.,
Nevertheless, Biophys continues his persistent and massive edit warring.
Revert wars of Biophys in 2010:
Edit warring at Battle for Height 776
Here Biophys is edit warring heavily to keep a known Islamist propaganda source (http://www.kavkazcenter.net) in the article.
This is a terrorist website similar to the illegal Al-Qaeda websites the United States keeps closing down around the world. Their fact-checking is not just zero but they enjoy publishing politically-motivated false rumours like against Gordon Brown and the "European Union's elite pedophile commissioners in Brussels" or the bogus story about Israel trying to harvest organs in Haiti. They continue the episode with their own lies and report about "the fact that "Israel" has brought some 25,000 Ukrainian children into the occupied entity over the past two years in order to harvest their organs."
Russians are always insulted as "invaders", "minions", "infidels" , "apostates", "the enemy", "hirelings", "puppets", especially in reports about bombings and other violence against them. Russian victims are purposefully dehumanized. The web site's original affiliation was with Shamil Basayev, who Washington too declared a terrorist and a threat to the United states.
All this is known by Biophys, who has backed the Kavkaz writer Boris Stomakhin since the early days of his account, yet he keeps edit warring to keep this terrorist source in the article to push his POV. After users complained about it, he just accused them all falsely of sockpuppetry.
Human rights in the Soviet Union
Again, this is not the first time Biophys has edit warred on this article (see ).
Proxying for banned editor HanzoHattori
HanzoHattori (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an indefinitely banned POV-warrior and sockpuppeteer. His main interest was terrorism and warfare in the Caucasus.
List of HanzoHattori sockpuppets, based on Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of HanzoHattori:
- RamboKadyrov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Putinjugend (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 84.234.60.154 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 94.246.154.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Mjr Edit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Biophys had tried to help the sockpuppet RamboKadyrov by a warning how to avoid getting CheckUsered. Biophys was also already suspected of proxying for HanzoHattori half a year ago. He answered with a non-denial denial, stressing that he checked the sources. Biophys said that he finds the banned HanzoHattori "the best WP editor" and "a fantastic expert": On the mailing list he revealed previous mail contact with HanzoHattori (20090624-0311) and, moreover, tried to protect a sockpuppet of HanzoHattori and prevent it from being detected: Biophys and his EEML friends then tried to organize a comeback for HanzoHattori:
In recent months, Biophys has visited several little known Caucasus-related articles previously edited by HanzoHattori and his socks, and performed massive edits on HanzoHattori's behalf.
For example:
- Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs
- This article was created in 2008 by HanzoHattori sock RamboKadyrov.
- No other editor had made major edits on this article.
- Biophys then arrives to do a massive edit:
Between 7 March and 9 March, Biophys performed several edits on behalf on HanzoHattori. All these articles were previously edited by HanzoHattori and his socks. Biophys did not do any edits of his own during this period.
- Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis
- Previously heavily edited by HanzoHattori, who has the 80 edits on this article.
- Also edited by the socks Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (13 edits) and Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji (3).
- Other editors do not even come close to HanzoHattori and his socks (and now the proxy Biophys).
- Vympel
- Chief editor is the HanzoHattori sock Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog
- Salman Raduyev
- Chief editor is HanzoHattori. Together with the socks User:84.234.60.154 and Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji they have over 150 edits. No other editors come even close.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Siege of Tripolitsa
- HanzoHattori has 4 edits on this article.
- Biophys has never before been interested in Turkish history.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Operation Bürkl
- A little known article heavily edited by HanzoHattori socks RamboKadyrov and Captain obvious and his crime-fighting dog.
- Biophys has never shown much interest in World War II history of Germany and Poland.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Ludolf von Alvensleben
- Previously edited by HanzoHattori.
- Biophys has never shown much interest in German history. His edit is a massive change which requires knowledge of the subject. It is highly unlikely this edit was written by Biophys himself.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Teruto Tsubota ]
- Created by HanzoHattori sock Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog in 2008.
- No other editor has made major edits in this article.
- Biophys has never before displayed any interest in Japan or Japanese people - one of Hanzo's main interests
- Biophys never edited this article before.
Please note, that Biophys edited all these articles sequentially. It is highly unlikely he would suddenly get interested in all these articles edited or created by HanzoHattori. It is unlikely that Biophys would suddenly (after performing sequential edits on several HanzoHattori articles), get interested in a little known Japanese person (whose article just happens to have been created by HanzoHattori.)
There is yet another sequential row of proxy edits by Biophys on the evening of 5 March.
- Khasavyurt Accord
- Heavily edited by HanzoHattori and his socks.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Battle of Komsomolskoye
- HanzoHattori & socks are the main editors of this article.
- Biophys never edited this article before
- Borozdinovskaya operation
- Familiar story: HanzoHattori and socks are the main editors.
- HanzoHattori also created this article in 2007.
- Ruslan Labazanov
- HanzoHattori is the most active editor. The socks have also edited.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Russian-Chechen Peace Treaty
- This article was created on 5 March by Biophys.
- It is unlikely the text was written by Biophys himself. The English is almost perfect, while Biophys usually makes many mistakes.
- The structure is similar to what HanzoHattori used: just a single chapter. (Compare to this HanzoHattori-created article:
- Ref formatting is similar to what HanzoHattori used. Please compare this to or to any other HanzoHattori edits.
Yet another row of proxy edits in the early hours of 7 March:
- 1998 abduction of foreign engineers in Chechnya
- A HanzoHattori socks has 100 edits on this article; next most active editor has only 6.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Central Labour Camp Jaworzno
- HanzoHattori has 111 edits and a sock as 25 edits. Next most active editor has only 33 edits.
- Zalpa Bersanova
- Also edited by HanzoHattori in the past.
- Grozny ballistic missile attack
- HanzoHattori and socks have done nearly all edits on this article.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Alpha Group
- A HanzoHattori sock has the most edits in this article.
Other evidence:
- Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad
- Again heavily edited by HanzoHattori socks in the past.
- Biophys never edited this article before.
- Arbi Barayev
- Heavily edited by many different HanzoHattori socks.
- There are also many other articles where Biophys obviously proxied for HanzoHattori, but the evidence presented above should be more than enough.
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- The infamous WP:EEML case resulted in several highly disruptive users being topic banned from Eastern European articles by ArbCom. These topic bans have worked well and have helped to pacify the topic area. For some reason (perhaps due to his "retirement" tactic), Biophys managed to escape sanctions even though he was one of the chief disruptors of the EEML cabal. Massive edit warring and proxying for an infamous banned POV-warrior cannot be allowed to go on. Biophys has already received multiple sanctions and warnings, yet he has learned nothing, has only accelerated his disruptive behaviour after the closure of the EEML case.
A 1RR restriction is not enough. Biophys has already promised to follow 1RR: ("I will also try to stick to 1RR").User:Sandstein replied: "in particular, I expect Biophys to adhere to his promise to "try to stick to 1RR"." In September 2009, Biophys still had a userbox "this user follows 1RR" on his now-deleted userpage. The above diffs of edit warring show how well Biophys kept his "promise."
The necessity of topic banning Biophys from Eastern European articles in line with the other EEML sanctions should be self-evident. However, since Biophys has also proxied for HanzoHattori in other articles (such as Teruto Tsubota), this topic ban is not enough. I request a one-year block followed by a EE topic ban for continued heavy disruption despite several sanctions and warnings.
This is what admins had to say during the last AE report about Biophys:
- "The involved editors have been warned extensively. Let's try to make a decision here, or else we should go to arbitration." -- Jehochman
- "I generally support some sort of restriction on Biophys, as I have warned them previously, and they appear to be continuing with battleground behavior." -- Jehochman
- "I am beginning to warm to Shell's suggestion that if we continue to see reports and discussions like this (including some recently at ANI, I think), topic bans all around may be the best way to prevent continued conflict." -- Sandstein
- "...but I would not want to impose a full topic or specific article ban for issues that were more than a month old" -- Thatcher
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Having been "involved" in the WP:EEML case, I have been actively watching participants in the EEML for evidence of continued disruption, and all of the above is very recent evidence which seems to demonstrate that the user in question still does not get "it".
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- diff
Discussion concerning Biophys
Statement by Biophys
Let's start from the "proxying". I had an email exchange with another person who suggested to make specific changes in a number of articles. Since I am well familiar with Chechen subjects, I agreed to look at the matter (I previously edited the same articles as Hanzo , contrary to claims by Russavia). I looked at the suggested changes, agreed with some of them, rejected others, and modified whatever was necessary. But I did not act as "meatpuppet". Being "proxy" or "meatpuppet" means doing something exactly as someone else asked you. I did not do that. I made only such changes (with my corrections) I would like to make myself. In a number cases I did not even touch an article because I disagreed with all changes he suggested. I also checked the sources. Everyone is welcome to examine each my single edit (see evidence by Russavia above) to see that they improve the content. I honestly believe these my actions were fully consistent with WP:IAR and other policies, such as WP:RS and WP:NPOV. And I am ready to answer any specific questions about these my edits: .
Russian apartment bombings. Here, I had extensive discussions with User:Ellol, and it was me who started a number of topics that needed discussion (please take a look): , ,, , . I was also looking for the 3rd opinion from User:Alex_Bakharev, who is not "on my side": , , but unfortunately he was not there. Yes, I believe the mediation by someone like him is the way to go. If you look at my actual edits, I mostly tried to develop a compromise version. I hardly made even a couple of "blind reverts" in this article.
Battle for Height 776. That was mostly a struggle with a vandal who did such edits: ,,. Vandal or not, but I fully explained everything to him at article talk page: . Yes, "Russian invaders" are insulted at the Islamist web site, kavkaz.org, exactly as Russavia tells. However, they are not insulted in the wikipedia article. The article is written in full compliance with our NPOV policy, as one can see from the diff . Kavkaz.org was only used to source the statements by Chechen fighters, exactly as in hundreds published books . You may also look at the entire editing history of saiga12 (talk · contribs).
Red Banner. Everything was explained several times at talk page . I agree with last version by User:Altenmann: , who modified my version as follows: .
Cyberwarfare by Russian state We had some heated debates, but finally came to consensus, including the new title (I did not even edit there for a long time).
Invasion of Dagestan. Here is the discussion. . User:HistoricWarrior007 does OR by claiming that something is "geographically impossible", although tons of publications claim that very much possible.
Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union. I discussed and tried to find some compromise here, but User:YMB29 repeatedly removed a lot of text sourced to books , and the discussion went confrontational . I asked an advice from User:Altenmann: , and he was really helpful, but we did not resolve our differences with YMB29. I finally stopped editing this article a couple of weeks ago. You may look at the contributions of YMB29 (talk · contribs). If you think he can do the job better than me, I have no problem leaving this article to him.
The decision is yours. If you want articles to be forged by Saiga12 (talk · contribs) like here, or "fixed" like here by YMB29 (talk · contribs), then issue me an editing restriction.
- Altenmann: I do not have any anti-Russian, anti-Chechen, anti-Polish or other "anti-national" attitude. That is why I had good relations with Ukrainian, Polish and Russian (like Colchicum or Muscovite99) users.Biophys (talk) 00:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- LokiiT: I do not have any current content disagreements with you. You made a big story from two my edits in one article by coming at my talk page and claiming me to be a "terrorist supporter" . You did the same previously with regard to another user . The entire conversation can be found at my talk page: . See also links given by FPS. I did not stalk you at all, but simply went through a large number of Chechnya-related pages (see the examples by Russavia), and certainly could not miss the article about their current separatist leader.
- To Skäpperöd: I had no email communications with any members of EEML list. OK, I see what you mean in Arbcom decision. But I did not act as his "proxy". What I did was like editing on wiki, but with one important difference: when I said him: "I accept none of your changes in such and such articles", there was nothing he could do. No, I am not familiar with any policies that prohibit productive collaboration by email. The problem in EEML case was not the email communication per se, but the alleged cooperation against other users and inappropriate canvassing. There was nothing of that kind here. No one asked me to vote or revert anyone.
- To Skäpperöd (since you want to dig out everything): For how long can you haunt me with EEML case? You collected a number of diffs that show my frustration during this case (some of them are taken from old versions I deleted). I made no official promises to stop editing in EE area. Neither I was officially asked to stop editing. Yes, I had an intention to abandon my current account and edit only science. And I indeed marked my current account as "Retired" and opened an alternative account, User:ATMH. However, after making several edits , I realized that doing so is deception, no matter what my reasons might be. So, I marked this new account as my second account , fixed some of the old edits like this: and left a notice about this to Arbcom .
- Why I am not editing science from my current account? One of the reasons: I feel uncomfortable editing anything related to my work because of the outing and WP:COI accusations by Russavia on-wiki and similar accusations off-wiki (I can not provide links to off-wiki sites because that would lead to outing of several other users).
- Re to Grey Fox-9589. "I'm pretty amazed Biophys is actually still editing since he endured...". True. I am surprised myself. Perhaps it's time for me to go, and receiving the sanctions will make the choice much easier. Thank you, Russavia for making this happen!
Proposed conflict resolution
- Offer to Russavia. Russavia, I voted to lift all your sanctions. But you ask sanctions for me. I think the problem is article Litvinenko, the only one where we have serious disagreements. You just reverted it to your favorite version, immediately after coming from your editing restriction. I suggest the following. 1. We start from last stable version. 2. We create a list of our disagreements if any. 3. We ask Alex, Ezhiki or any other administrator of your choosing (or any established member of Mediation Committee) to be our judge rather than mediator. 4. He/she looks at the list and decides each disagreement one way or another. I agree in advance with any his/her decisions. Would that be working for you? Would you agree to withdraw this AE request? Biophys (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Offer to User:Ellol. Same as to Russavia. Would you agree?Biophys (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Offer to User:YMB29. The only thing you did was reverting my edits in Human rights in the Soviet Union, Red Flag and Red Banner. I will never edit these articles again. You can own them. But you do not follow my edits in other articles. Agree? Biophys (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Offer to User:saiga12. We keep last most complete version but indicate strength and losses as follows: ... per Russian side and ... per Chechen side. And let's discuss any other specific issues.Biophys (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I do not have any other disputes with other editors.Biophys (talk) 13:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Biophys
user:Altenmann : disclaimer
I amware of severe anti-Russian attitude of Biophys. I have no problem with this: everyone is entitled to their position. I see no problem it promoting this anti-Russia attitude into wikipedia articles as long as it is clear who is the bearer of this attitude (and this bearer is notable enough for their opinion to be reported) and it iss not presented as truth about Russia.
At the same time I disagree with usage of my name by Biophys as any kind of validation of his actions. For example, his phrase "I agree with version by User:Altenmann" does not mean that this version was somehow endorsed by me: it just randomly happened that I was the last one to edit this page.
I do remember finding a number of Boiphys's editing habits as problematic, but I have bad memory and don't really care about modern East-European political issues to waste my time on editing/personal conflicts. - Altenmann >t 23:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
user:Celasson : just thoughts
We are not a debating society. We are Misplaced Pages which is based upon WP:FIVE; one of those being WP:NPOV. And the title is NOT NPOV. --Russavia Dialogue 01:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
People,we can not tolerate phrases such as We are not a debating society it is horrible that somebody dare he? I think lot of guys here have to learn that various points of view can be integrated in a particular Wiki article.And you can say it about Biophys and about his opponents.But We are not a debating society is unacceptable.Celasson (talk) 00:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
user:DonaldDuck : objection
I object to use of my name and our limited recent interaction by Biophys as any kind of justification for his actions. After my indefinite block (which was result of coordinated efforts by EEML cabal to remove me from Misplaced Pages, and Biophys was member of the EEML group), I avoid articles on controversial topics such as terrorism/Chechnya, so we just edit in different topic areas with Biophys.DonaldDuck (talk) 05:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Fut.Perf.
I'll just point out that Biophys and two of his opponents, LokiiT (talk · contribs) and Ellol (talk · contribs), were recently on my talkpage bitterly complaining about each other, about issues related to the ones raised here. The threads are at here and here. I also observed him edit-warring persistently against HistoricWarrior007 (talk · contribs) on Russian apartment bombings, in a situation where my impression was that both editors were behaving in a heavily tendentious way. For various reasons I couldn't muster the energy to judge the situation and take action at the time, and so I think it will be better if I abstain from such action now too; however, it appears to me that the time may be ripe for at least a revert limitation, possibly not just on him but also some of the editors on the other side. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by # Grey Fox-9589
I'm pretty amazed Biophys is actually still editing since hes endured some of the worst stalking and herassment himself. If I recall correctly, he got outed and threatened even outside wikipedia. Users who are after him are always extremely nationalistically orientated users who would get a fine pay as lawyers of Vladimir Putin. With users who aren't as nationalistaclly orientated he never really had problems. Biophys doesn't edit "anti-russian" (a wrong term considering that he's Russian himself), in contrary he sometimes protects articles from those who are trying to turn wikipedia in the new Pravda. He was never alone in this, but because of the EEML case many of those are temporarely topic banned at the moment and probably aren't allowed to voice their support right now. Note that Biophys himself survived EEML even though some users posted large lists of supposed "evidence". EEML wasn't long ago. This file for arbitration is an obvious attempt to get him sanctioned at a time when he would get outvoted.
- As for the edits by Hanzohattori. This users was actually a good editor, he created a lot of new articles, collected a lot of new sources and updated them regularely. Eventually he got banned for insulting an administrator and went on to become a sockpuppeteer. This of course doesn't mean that all the articles he created in the past are wrong. I became an editor too at the articles he created, after he got banned (but now I've become inactive too). Why would Biophys not be allowed to edit the articles? I've got to know both users a little and they both had the same interests. Biophys isn't even editing the articles so much, they're mostly small edits or votes.
- As a conclusion I would like to ask whatever administrator judging this request to look through the history of the complainers. Most of them will have an extremely obvious pro-Putin bias and a lot of them have a lot of disruption as well (some of them almost having been permabanned). Grey Fox (talk) 13:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Concerning the further comments that Russavia has made below. It's another attempt at trying to demonise Biophys as someone promoting extremism, a pretex under which many journalists are banned from working in Russia. The source was already discussed at wp:rs several times. I explained the use of such sources here and there's no bad intention whatsoever. Several users have gone after biophys labeling him a 'terrorist lover' or other ridiculous accusations which together with calling him 'anti-russian' means they view him as Enemy of the People. Ironically articles like Alexander Litvinenko are brought up. It's indeed quite so that articles like Anna Politkovskaya are often the setting of edit wars because the pro-Putin editors mostly target such articles. It's sad really, journalists and human rights activists reporting on crimes by the current Russian government are assassinated in Russia every few months. Afterwards their wikipedia pages are targeted by groups of Putin lobbyists attempting to discredit these activists. Anyone who tries to prevent this gets labeled "anti-Russian". Grey Fox (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Further comments by Russavia
Biophys claims that his use of a terrorist website to source articles is not a problem and is always done from a NPOV stance. This is false, as can be attested by his persistent reinsertion of an external link (albeit from January 2009) to a terrorist website showing what the terrorist claim are the bodies of killed Russian soldiers, whom are described as "Russian invaders" right there on the page., . This is not NPOV; far from it. Biophys also claims that his other edits are always NPOV, however, this again is false. After I was topic banned last year, Biophys took the opportunity to revert to his favoured version of the Alexander Litvinenko article - one which many editors had struggled to edit due to extreme ownership issues which Biophys seems to have with such articles. He mentions my recent edits to the article above, but what he fails to mention is what I have mentioned at Talk:Alexander_Litvinenko#Changes_made_to_article - that is, Biophys continually reverts to his favoured version, whilst at the same time ignoring issues raised by other editors, and which always involves the removal of sourced information of the article by Biophys; ostensibly because it does not fit in with Biophys' own POV. Such things have been experienced in the past on other articles, such as Talk:Artyom Borovik, where Biophys' edits allowed conspiracy theories to have "centre stage", whilst pushing information from aviation experts out of sight. The same thing was experience at Anatoly Trofimov, where accusations by a person with a history of making unsubstantiated allegations were allowed to appear in the article, but criticism of those claims were not ,, etc. As one can see, Biophys clearly has a history of edit warring over information which does not fit his own POV on the ways of the world, and it is being continued as per the reported articles above. --Russavia 17:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments/Evidence by YMB29
I was also going to post a similar complaint about Biophys. I reported him before at the edit warring noticeboard , but the request was declined as not being posted in the right place.
I can confirm that Biophys has continued edit warring and also tag teaming after the EEML case. He just pretended to retire and kept quite during the case and for some time after it.
Since the end of January Biophys has resumed edit warring in the Human rights in the Soviet Union article, trying to reinsert his edits from September without any discussion. Even attempts by admin Altenmann to get a discussion going on the issues were eventually ignored by Biophys, as he failed to respond.
But more importantly he continues tag teaming like in the EEML days. He got a user who never edited the article before to revert for him: He basically admitted it when I asked him about it.
In the Red flag article he tried to insert his POVed jokes , even after all the users told him that they are inappropriate. Then he simply goes over to the Red Banner article to insert those same jokes there, because he knew that not nearly as much people edit that article. He does not give evidence of the jokes' notability and continues to edit war. It is like he is on a mission to sneak in his POVed edits anyway he can and does not care what others have to say...
Obviously he was lucky to escape a ban in the EEML case, but his behavior shows that he learned nothing.
-YMB29 (talk) 01:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Response to "offers" by Biophys
First of all, I don't need to "own" any articles...
As mentioned already, Biophys has made promises before but they were kept only temporarily, until things cooled down.
Also, edit warring is one thing but coordinating it offline and proxying for a banned user, even after the EEML case, is too much. -YMB29 (talk) 02:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments/Evidence by LokiiT
Biophys seems to have gone back to all his old disruptive ways again following a short calm after the EEML case. Just in the past couple of weeks he's engaged in stalking, edit warring and sock fishing, all issues that I had brought up in my EEML evidence page, and that I hoped would have come to an end after that.
It started (with me) in late February when he stalked me to the Dokka Umarov article. This was an article he had never edited in before, and his first edit was a revert of my edit (something he has a long history of doing). (I'm beginning to think he's somehow connected to the POV pushing IP who I had reverted there in the first place). He then continued to edit war in that article without discussing things in talk until after, and ignoring everything I was saying, which forced me to take it off my watched list out of frustration. (Also note in that last revert, he used a provocation "trick" I described in my EEML evidence where he does a giant revert-edit while saying something minor/irrelevant in the edit summary.)
I made a somewhat hot-headed response to those provocations of his (given our history, I do believe they were provocations), and he proceeded to report me at an admin's talk page. In his report, he made a bold faced lie about my real life identity, claiming that I had actually said myself that I was "related to" (ie. a sock of) the inactive user Alexandre Koriakine, a name I had all but forgotten about since 2008 when he first accused me and Offliner of being this person's sock along with working for the Russian government (this government accusation was made on a subpage that he deleted, but was confirmed by Future Perfect at Sunrise).
So then, after FPaS had understandably given up on our dispute, Biophys proceeded to report me for sockpuppeting. I made it clear on the page that I believed this was simply a personal attack/revenge tactic and that he was just fishing to see if I had any active socks, since the similarities between myself and the other accused parties are nonexistent; not even so much as back to back reverts or identical edits, and only two or three similar articles. The result of that investigation, involving five users and four IPs, was that they were unrelated. This gives more evidence that he was just fishing and wasting everyone's time on top of it. (Again, puppet fishing was yet another issue I had brought up in my EEML evidence page. The tally of wrongful accusations he's made against me has to be exceeding 10-15 if you include IPs.)
Basically I feel that he's blatantly harassing me, and has been since I first created this account for the specific purpose of avoiding him. If stalking me isn't enough, surely the continuous baseless accusations and lies/prying about my real life identity which have nothing to do with wikipedia content are. LokiiT (talk) 03:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Skäpperöd
Re: Biophys' proxying for banned users
It is disturbing to see Biophys continuing the EEML habit of proxying for blocked users (compare the compelling evidence by Russavia above to ). Already in December, arbcom had clarified to Biophys that this is not OK, and has included proxying for blocked users in the respective user-specific EEML-FoFs as evidence for disruption. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Re: Don't ban me, I will withdraw from the area of conflict
Biophys should not even have edited the articles where the proxying took place. He promised to edit science only, and retired, to avoid sanctions in the EEML arbcom:
The arbcom case had just started when Biophys announced "If I am not banned by ArbCom, I will have to abandon this account and start editing only science". When the case was in its final stage (2 months ago), Biophys again stated "please, do not make new additional sanctions for editors who were not even mentioned in the new evidence like Ostap, me and some others. (...) I am asking because this remedy prevents me from creating an alternative account to edit on different subjects, which I was about to do," and the "last word" "If you allow me editing pure science (I contributed a lot in this area without having a single conflict with anyone), that would be great. I might also edit some heritage articles, like biographies Russian writers and poets. The area of conflict can be defined as either "Human rights in Russia" or "Post-Soviet Russia"."
Biophys also 'retired' (obviously, not) to avoid sanctions during the EEML arbcom: "I marked my account as inactive and disabled email yesterday. (...) If anyone was evicted, this is me. I wish all the best to everyone." This response was made by an editor on 15 October 2009 (!): "I can see it now, when this case is over Biophys once again will come out of his "retirement" and continue to do what he has always done."
Re: Biophys' response to the above
Re : Biophys, your involvement with the EEML and the resulting arbcom is where we met. In contrast to the other EEMListees, you apologized for your wrongdoings and promised to not do that again. Believe it or not, that meant something to me. From your reactions, I had the impression that in contrast to other listmembers you seriously reconsidered where you want to go here. And now I see you proxying big time, and understand that all your promises and talk is just strategy to avoid sanctions. Skäpperöd (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Biophys
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Cs32en
Appears to be mainly a content dispute; no action. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Cs32en
Discussion concerning Cs32enStatement by Cs32enAll of the edits that Turian (talk · contribs) enumerates are based on Misplaced Pages policies.
I hope that I have clarified the issues that Turian (talk · contribs) has raised, and I suggest to dismiss this request. (I'll be away for about 24 hours.) Cs32en Talk to me 21:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
As Turian (talk · contribs) is claiming that my editing on Misplaced Pages is about pushing conspiracies, I'd like to provide my edits at September 11 attacks during the last few months (the edits mentioned by Turian above, i.e. #1, #5, #6, and #7, are not included):
In early January, I have created the article Camp Chapman attack, which appeared on Did you know? on January 10. As I have written almost all of the content of this article, it may be a useful example to assess my editing. Cs32en Talk to me 16:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Cs32enComment by Mbz1I find the differences that were presented to be of a big concern, and believe Cs32en should be topic banned in accordance with the request.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC) Comment by SandsteinCould the requesting editor please annotate the request so as to explain how, specifically, each of the diffs provided violates "the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process" (WP:ARB911#Discretionary sanctions)? Sandstein 20:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by RklawtonCs32en edits 9/11 as if his and only his view is correct. He removed a well researched, well considered, well sourced commentary published in a reliable source on the grounds that the author was a neo-conservative and immediately launched into an edit war to defend his actions. As far as I know, both liberals and conservatives believe 9/11 conspiracy theorists are whack-jobs. But Cs32en insisted the author was pushing a political agenda. The only agenda I saw in her article was one against conspiracy theorists - the very point of the section in which the source had been included. The bottom line is, unless we want to hand the article over to this one editor, he needs to be topic banned. Rklawton (talk) 03:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by WildbearThe preceding reads like a content dispute, rather than a pattern of abuse calling for arbitration enforcement. Approaching a polarized topic from a particular angle does not in itself constitute abuse; it is how one behaves while editing and discussing. If Cs32en had been engaging in edit warring, or unreasonable behavior on the talk page, then action might be warranted; but it doesn't look to me like that is occurring. Wildbear (talk) 04:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by ClovisPtAfter reading/re-reading the edits provided above as examples of Cs32en's supposedly problematic editing style, I don't see a clear attempt to push an agenda. Several of these edits are judgment calls about the relative notability of various items in the September 11 attacks article, which is always difficult when one is dealing with the main page of a complicated subject that spans many items. I especially don't see evidence of conspiracy pushing here. Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 20:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Cs32en
The submitter has unarchived this section because it was not closed. Unless other admins disagree, I intend to close it without action. The edits at issue are not obviously problematic, at least not to an extent that would merit sanctions. Whether or not they violate WP:NPOV or WP:FRINGE is principally an editorial matter that needs to be resolved through editorial channels. Like the main arbitration process, arbitration enforcement is not for mediating content disagreements, and this request appears to be mainly a content rather than a conduct issue. If a user were to engage in aggressive fringe POV-pushing over extended periods of time in this area, AE sanctions would be warranted, but the diffs submitted in this request do not convince me that this is the case here. Sandstein 09:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
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Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris
Not looking for a full case or anything, but this seems to be heating up again, and if some Arbs could peek in on it from time to time that would be great. (because we all know how much free time you guys have...) Beeblebrox (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Specifically Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Beeblebrox. This board is not normally frequented by arbitrators, but by admins who do arbitration enforcement, such as I. Your request is a bit short on details - if you would like enforcement action taken against specific editors, I recommend the use of the form {{Arbitration enforcement request}}. Sandstein 20:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm (deliberately) not really up to speed on the ins and outs of arbcom. There's a notice on the article's talk page that says "After a suitable grace period, the state of the article may be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee." So I guess that's what I'm looking for, I don't have any specific user or users in mind just looking for that re-evaluation. Should I email them or something? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- In that case, I think the page you could use is either Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment or the talk pages of individual arbitrators. An e-mail (WP:AC#Mailing lists) should also work. In any such request, I recommend that you provide a brief description of what the current problem is, some relevant diffs, and a recommendation about what should be done. That is likely to result in faster action than if arbitrators have to dig through histories just to find out whether there is a problem in the first place. Sandstein 22:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm (deliberately) not really up to speed on the ins and outs of arbcom. There's a notice on the article's talk page that says "After a suitable grace period, the state of the article may be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee." So I guess that's what I'm looking for, I don't have any specific user or users in mind just looking for that re-evaluation. Should I email them or something? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Beeblebrox. This board is not normally frequented by arbitrators, but by admins who do arbitration enforcement, such as I. Your request is a bit short on details - if you would like enforcement action taken against specific editors, I recommend the use of the form {{Arbitration enforcement request}}. Sandstein 20:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Sulmues
Sulmues (talk · contribs) warned. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Sulmues
Back in December, this user was placed under the following 3 month civility supervision per WP:ARBMAC by User:Moreschi for outbursts such as these . Following continuing trolling and incivility, he was blocked for 1 week per the terms of his civility parole, which was reset so as to expire April 27, 2010 . Since then, he has continued trolling and breaching the terms of his civility parole. Specifically:
Discussion concerning SulmuesOk, I'm ready. They are all false accusations and this is a really bad report. I reject the accusations as follows:
Response to further accusations from User:Alexikoua: user:spitfire clearly explained that the report DID NOT CLAIM that I am "possibly a meatpuppet" like you repeat (see ). This is a heavy accusation that you have done several times even in the recent report that user:Kushtrim123 has just filed against you and we are still waiting for a response on it. You have been edit-warring in many articles recently using forum sources and you just got out of the block for edit-warring! I still need your public apologies for filing a bogus SPI report that I am possibly a sock. It seems like you still are not convinced that I am a sock () and this is pitiful. --sulmues (talk) 07:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
@Sandstein: I really don't see how you concluded that I am disruptive. I addressed every single accusation. You are not addressing the issues clearly and are taking little time to see things in particular. How can things "on the whole" be that I am disruptive if, in particular, they are not disruptive? Your conclusion just doesn't make any sense. The only accusation that you seem to endorse is that I gave barnstars to people who fight vandalism. How is that an incivil way? kedadi fights vandalism every day and keeps the Albania articles clean. Doesn't he deserve a barnstar? In addition to user:Aigest I awarded the barnstar because he is fighting "EXTREMIST editors". How's that a battleground behavior? Let me understand: you are deciding to topic ban me because I gave out barnstars? Let me also understand: How am I being unpersuasive after addressing every single accusation? I would gently ask that you analyze my response to the other users: which it seems you have not seen yet, because I wrote them after you wrote your thoughts. Speedy topic banning me goes even beyond what's asked by user:Athenean. In addition, even though I was continuously harassed even in an incivil way, I never was incivil, in addition I never used Misplaced Pages as a battleground. Thank you for your attention! --sulmues (talk) 07:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning SulmuesFrom what I've seen of this user in the few discussions we've both participated, is the persistence on a certain version of one article (ex. in Aoos), which is usually motivated by dogmatism. There is also the lack of will for discussion, and the absence of arguments and usually also absence sources, to the point that discussion is not only fruitless but useless and intervention becomes extremely important, if not vital, when normally the users should be able to reach a consensus via discussion and not need intervention unless an issue is extremely controversial or an attitude is problematic.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC) I want to say that User:Sulmues in the days I have been here in wikipedia has been cooperative and hasn't created any "problems". On the other hand User:Athenean keeps following other users like myself and keeps accusing them about things that have been proven not to be true. If he wants to award stuff to people it's his right, and if you think that "hope no one gets offended" is provocative that's just meaningless. How can a sentence like that be provocative?--— ZjarriRrethues — 22:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Wow, yet another report against User:Sulmues. It's clear that User:Athenean wants him to get banned (at least blocked) by any means, although the accusations have always been proven not to be true. Thank you. kedadial 23:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Sulmues
The edits cited in this request are not sanctionable misconduct individually, but in aggregate they represent a pattern of battleground behavior, as seen especially in Sulmues awarding barnstars for "fighting" against other editors. This, rather than incivility, is the main problem here in my eyes. The statements made by Sulmues in his defense are unpersuasive; they mostly amount to "yes but I am right and the others are wrong and/or disruptive". That is not what matters here: you may well be right in your content disputes and your opponents may well be disruptive too, but that still does not justify you engaging in disruptive conduct. Per WP:BATTLE: "If another user behaves in an uncivil, uncooperative, or insulting manner, or even tries to harass or intimidate you, this does not give you an excuse to respond in kind." For these reasons, I intend to sanction Sulmues with a time-limited ban from topics related to Albania and the Albanians, which appears to be the area of conflict, unless other admins disagree. However, as a formality, the reporting editor will need to first complement the request with a diff of the prior {{uw-sanctions}}-style warning as required by WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions. This should not be considered an endorsement of anything done by the editors Sulmues is in conflict with; indeed, these may very well have engaged in similar sanctionable conduct, but that would need to be examined in a separate AE request. Sandstein 07:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
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Abd
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Abd
- User requesting enforcement
- Enric Naval (talk) 08:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William_M._Connolley#Abd_editing_restriction_.28existing_disputes.29
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- :
- Removes from Ghost the lead paragraph that has been heavily disputed, and claims himself the arbiter of how much consensus is needed to place it on the lead.
- Removes the pseudoscience arbitration case notice from Talk:Ghost. (unlogged edit) He wasn't an originating party from either the "does Ghost belong to pseudoscience category" dispute, or the "should we place the pseudoscience arbitration notice here" dispute
- Comments out of the RfC section, in a topic that was not covered by the RfC
- Removes the NSF commentary from the pseudoscience case notice in Talk:Pseudoscience (directly relevant to the Ghost dispute)
- Uses the whitelist page to comment on a lot of requests where he is not an originating party. Notice that the meaning of "originating party" was further clarified two weeks ago and this is a clear violation.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- # Warning by Enric Naval (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- One week block, as the restriction says.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Ghost-related violations: Abd is not an originating party of the already-existing dispute that was going on Ghost. He has commented on the dispute outside of the context of the RfC, and he has extended the already-existing dispute about the NSF source into the Pseudoscience talk page.
- Whitelist-related violations: Abd held a discussion here about improving the whitelist, but he has implemented it in a way that allows him to comment in any already-existing dispute that involves a whitelisting request, independently of whether he was an originating party or not. In , he advises an editor about COI, and this sort of advice is what caused the problems with LirazSiri, with those problems leading to his last AE block.
- He made two additional diffs that are not so clear-cut, so I sent those to requests for clarification. The diffs listed above are the clear-cut ones, and they are by themselves a clear violation. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Abd
Statement by Abd
See also Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification: Abd-William_M._Connolley (Abd's restriction) filed by Enric Naval. When Enric first complained about my Ghost edits, I placed a request on my Talk page noting that I would respect any clarification by a neutral administrator covering this new interpretation, pending resolution. Absent such, since Enric Naval was highly involved in the subject RfAr and has consistently presented himself as an adverse party, with a number of complaints that were not sustained, I do not consider his interpretation binding. This request, however, reaches even beyond that. I respond in detail in collapse, if anyone needs detail. The collapse summaries should be adequate as non-evidenced response.
1. Single edit to Ghost, not a participation in discussion of a dispute | ||
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The existing dispute was over the use of an NSF report in an attempt to establish a scientific consensus that belief in ghosts was a pseudoscientific belief. The edit did not weigh in on this, but rather on a different issue, whether or not the NSF comment was sufficiently notable and required by balance in the lede. One does not make oneself the "sole arbiter" of some text by asserting a single edit. Nor did this edit "discuss" an extant controversy, which was over an RS issue, not lede characteristics as such. The comment about consensus was my understanding of our guidelines.
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2. Pseudoscience arbitration case notice: not a participation in discussion of a dispute |
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At the time, Ghost was not in the pseudoscience category. It is now, but only as a result of protection of the "wrong version" in the middle of an edit war over it. Further, that notice was being used to insert an unsigned personal opinion, under color of an ArbComm finding. The simplest way to deal with it was to remove it. Ordinarily, I'd have made a single edit, as I initially did, and then left final disposition to the community. But autologout had struck, so it was IP. And then an editor removed it as if it had been vandalism, not appearing to read the edit summary. So I restored it logged-in, and noted that edits by IP editors should receive the same respect as edits by logged-in editors, generally. The edit was again reverted and I did not continue. There is serious disruption going on at Ghost and in the pseudoscience area, with edit warring at WP:NPOV, Ghost, and Pseudoscience, such that the two articles have been full protected. I am not the cause of this disruption, not even close. I have only asserted, simply, normal editorial positions, without discussion (except for the inadvertent post mentioned outside collapse and allowed RfC comment). This kind of activity is not what the sanction was designed to address. I was not aware of a "should we place the arbitration notice here" dispute. Perhaps Enric Naval could point out where it was. It became a dispute later, may still be in dispute, I don't know. If it started with the original placement and my removal, am I then an "originating party"? It doesn't matter, in fact, because I don't intend to discuss it. I took an action, a permitted one, not "discussion" but ordinary editing (with the minimal encouraged "discussion" of edit summary explaining the edit). The edit was a completely independent judgment and not relevant to the original dispute, on the face. That my edit appeared to support one side of a dispute does not mean that it was a comment on the dispute. I was asserting a Talk page content issue, and that assertion did not address the standing dispute, which was not over the Talk page notice itself, even though those arguing might preferentially have one position or another. My work is not defined by several editors arguing, and was not a "comment" on their dispute. It was my action, as a member of the community who attempts to anticipate consensus, acting to express it. In the end, whether I'm correct or not will be up to the community, and these brief and quickly reversible actions, easily ignored if they are improper and find no support, are not disruptive. The raging debate, with three RfCs and counting, edit warring and repetition and multiplication of arguments, is. If I express my specific opinion about this, as to the factions, I'd be violating my ban, though it might leak through sometimes. |
3. Discussion in Talk:Ghost, inadvertent ban violation, now struck |
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. I struck Discussion in Talk:Ghost, as soon as I realized, it being pointed out by SamJohnston, in the RfAr/Clarification, that this was discussion, not a comment in an RfC, and related to a dispute in which I was not an originating party. I'd have deleted it if it had been immediately pointed out. The edit was unsigned and probably inadvertent. I put great effort into complying with the ban, while remaining engaged in permitted activity. I occasionally write a response, then dump it as it becomes clear to me that it would push the edge of the ban. I am attempting to interpret the ban very strictly, as I agreed to do. Had I been blocked for this edit, I'd have had no response but "Oops! Sorry!" At this point, I really don't understand why I'd even write the thing, all I can imagine is that I became confused as to where I was, given that I was also commenting, around the same time, in two different RfCs over the basic issue. So, at this point, I'd request one thing relevant to enforcement. If not for the ban, would that edit have been harmful? It is expressing what will probably be community consensus when the smoke clears, and, if not, at least it was a reasonable expression of what will become part of the consensus. I consider that edit crossed into doubtful territory, at least, so it is not a toe in the door, and I request that I not be blocked as a result of it. Repetition of such edits would appropriately see response with a block, even if inadvertent. I would also not object to a short block or a block log annotation, so that there is a ready record of violation history. However, this does not apply to the rest of what Enric Naval has alleged. --Abd (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
4. Alleged removal of NSF commentary: Not a removal and not discussion. |
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Since the removal of the notice, an RfAr ruling on pseudoscience placed on a Talk page for an article not in the pseudoscience category, the topic not being covered in the definition of pseudoscience in the ruling itself, was reverted, I then separated the comment so that it was clear that it was separate, addressing the most serious problem. I did not, as claimed by Enric Naval, remove it. I think he didn't read the whole diff. This is all normal editorial process whereby some compromise is made that preserves the critical values of all sides. I was disputing the Talk page notice and how it was presented, and working this out quickly and efficiently without tendentious discussion. That, it seems, is what ArbComm wanted me to do. I was not intervening in someone else's dispute, even though my actions might have an effect on that dispute. Note that the entire ruling was again taken out later as misleading or confusing. That may or may not stand. I do not necessarily support the removal, in fact, because I do not support arguing over trivialities, and especially not revert warring over them. I am not taking a side in the dispute between editors, on-wiki. (Off-wiki, I certainly have my opinions.) If one faction wants it in, and it is on a Talk page and does not do serious harm, why not leave it for a while? I simply took action, based on project welfare, and the sanction only covers certain kinds of discussion. I was personally content with separating out the most contentious part so that it was attributed, and possibly, if it were still considered disruptive (as argued in the latest removal) might have added some more qualifying text that would avoid misinterpretation. But I'm probably done with that issue, and I'm discussing it here only because of this AE request. In general, enforcement efforts over the sanction have caused far more waste of time than any disruption resulting from my alleged violations, most of which have not been sustained where examined. |
5. Whitelist activity: Not a dispute and not discussion of a dispute |
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I'm flabbergasted by this one. Whitelist requests have been sitting for as long as two months with no response, or there is a single comment that is ambiguous and makes no decision. I've been in extensive discussion with Beetstra over this for a very long time, up to a year, and the case RfAr/Abd and JzG was originally about an improper blacklisting by an involved admin, and ArbComm confirmed there that blacklisting should not be based on admins making content decisions. However, content issues are not completely irrelevant, either, for if it is true that there is no possible legitimate usage, or that such usage would be the exception rather than the rule, this can be a factor in deciding how serious spam should be before blacklisting and then requiring whitelisting of individual pages. Big problem, though, is a lack of volunteer support at the whitelist page, and there are very few administrators working on blacklisting issues. So, after recent discussion, I offered to help at the whitelist page, trying to pioneer a way for non-administrators to help, and my intention would be to solicit other editors to do the same, and to develop clearer guidelines for whitelisting requests. To do that, I need experience making whitelist judgments. So I've started doing that. These are simply expressed opinions on a whitelisting request. They are completely independent, though I do consider any comments that exist already. None of these would be at the level of dispute as contemplated in the sanction, though it's possible that someone will dispute my comments. There is no assertion that any comment is improper. There is no dispute at all until there is a decision, though if I come across a request where there is serious dispute, I might consider that and recuse because of the ban. Someone else can look at them, and I'll try to facilitate that happening. I'm trying to make it quick and efficient to get a page whitelisted if there is an adequate possibility of legitimacy, and in doing this, there is a lot of flexibility. I can recommend "no action," but suggest to the requestor that they obtain support from other editors at an article Talk page, for example, or perhaps at a WikiProject. And if they do, then I can change my recommendation. Blacklist admins very obviously don't have time for this, and that is not their fault at all. My work there also will be of no effect, a waste of time, if no blacklist admin respects it. I have no coercive power, nor would I want it. But this is an opportunity for blacklist admins to stop making content decisions when they deny a request (or, for that matter, grant it, though a whitelisting does not make a decision that a link is to be used). As I see it, admins would never deny a request, they would let the community do that, and the community can make content decisions. Then, if an admin participates in a whitelist discussion, it's only as a member of the community. A close as "whitelist," however, requires an admin, because it's an edit to a protected page. I'm proceeding with sensitivity and cooperation, I hope. Enric Naval clearly considers the project a battleground, so that any discussion of a proposal becomes a "dispute." I don't think so. I have no intention of becoming embroiled in other people's disputes, either on the whitelist page or elsewhere. I'm just trying to help clear up the backlog, and to help make the ArbComm ruling on blacklisting a reality, while fully respecting the needs of the administrators working on antispam process. I may be uniquely placed to accomplish this, given a great deal of time spent studying blacklist issues, and quite a bit of successful work with blacklist admins. (Don't mistake the occasional flare-ups for a lack of cooperation, blacklist admins are faced with a flood of spam and it is very hard to distinguish that, sometimes, from legitimate content additions, and they get faced with charges of "censorship!" all the time. They need help and support that, at the same time, respects the goal: a functional editorial community which also needs assistance and support, necessary for the project.) |
Enric Naval's warning: not about the only actual violation (number 3) |
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Enric Naval warned me only about the first item in his list. I responded adequately there, soliciting clarification from any neutral admin, should any agree with him. None did. The only violation here is his item 3, which was inadvertent, I was slow to recognize it when SamJohnston pointed it out, because of the noise about "violations" that weren't. You can see in my edits to RfAr/Clarification that at first I thought he was pointing to RfC text, I was astonished to find that he was right, so sure was I that I'd confined discussion to comment in RfC. Perfect and error-free, I am not. |
- @Verbal Please do not bring an open content dispute here, there is an RfC on the very position you are asserting, and your position is not the majority one, so far. That may change. It's moot for AE, because my sanction does not prohibit me from making errors about content. As to length of comment, my essential response is all visible outside of collapse, each collapse having a descriptive title that says it. There is no obligation to read the "details." Is there harm in them being made available? --Abd (talk) 19:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- @TS Continually injecting these thousand-word essays into discussions on Misplaced Pages. Have I done this anywhere recently, even once, let alone "continually"? I assume I'm allowed freedom on my own Talk page, and to present evidence and argument as needed when I'm hauled before ArbComm or AE. If I'm being "continually" hauled before ArbComm or AE, maybe some attention should be paid to that, and to who is doing it. You do realize it's the same people, don't you? --Abd (talk) 19:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- @Hans Adler. While I appreciate your support, the question here is my right to make the edits, not whether they were "correct" or not. While your view, if accepted, might be an ameliorating factor in ban enforcement, that's about it. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
@JzG and One Night in Hackney: I disputed an unopposed extreme claim by an editor on the blacklist page, thus originating a "dispute" as allowed. |
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Whether or not songfacts.com is RS or not is not the issue here, and it wastes all our time for irrelevant issues to be brought here. I am not under a sanction to never make an error in an argument, even if I did that. These AE requests have, however, often been an occasion for editors to scour my contributions looking for anything they disagree with, which they toss in the hopper, making it look like I'm being massively disruptive, challenging the edges, etc. I have extensive experience with blacklisting issues, having brought an RfAr over blacklist abuse by JzG, confirmed as such by ArbComm, but I did far more work with the blacklist than was about JzG, with quite a bit of success, and with successful cooperation with blacklist admins. And now this is being threatened, not because I'm disruptive at the blacklist/whitelist, -- that's preposterous if you look at the pages -- but because a long-term agenda to ban me from the site (I've documented this before, it's been openly expressed) sees opportunities. If this is not noticed and stopped, it will continue until I'm banned again, or spike my password, and when I'm gone, the same editors will continue to do this with others, as they did before I ever became involved, while I was site-banned, and in matters that involve me not at all. I made an additional comment on the blacklist talk page in response to comment from Beetstra, which could be seen as a closer approach to the ban edge, because Beetstra had referred to the IP editor's behavior, though I was still trying to avoid comment on the dispute (on the IP editor Talk page), as can be seen, so, since nobody has replied to that edit, I have reverted it, even though it has not been mentioned here. --Abd (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC) |
- @Enric Naval: The sanction is very specific as to this 3.3) Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute in which he is not an originating party. This includes . He may, however, vote or comment at polls. I am prohibited from discussing the disputes of others on Misplaced Pages pages. I am not prohibited from non-discussion action, such as editing an article. I may not enter an existing dispute discussion. While I could start a new section and discuss my own independent issue, I'm not aware of taking advantage of this anywhere that an existing dispute is involved, and usually it is not needed. I may watch and comment in RfCs that appear, though, and I am under no 0RR restriction or the like. Thus the original intention of the ban, probably about "tomes" considered offensive, is not violated by ordinary article space edits, which are not "discussion," unless I made them so, nor by other edits which do not discuss a standing dispute, and especially if the length is restrained. --Abd (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- @SamJohnston beats dead horse. Response to charge (3) above discusses that edit and acknowledges ban violation and discusses response. Generally, Misplaced Pages does not punish, but acts to prevent damage. I made an edit, inadvertent or not, and it's up to enforcing administrators as to what is best for the wiki, and I only ask that such be neutral, as policy requires. --Abd (talk) 19:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC) Providing evidence to prove a violation already acknowledged by me, with link, is indeed "beating a dead horse," that's what it means, belaboring the obvious and already accepted. --Abd (talk) 04:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- General comment on enforcement. In reviewing this, if block response (and there was one violating edit) is found appropriate, I ask that the block record be considered. Please notice that the two blocks began with one week (excessive for first ban block), were placed by a single admin, already in dispute with me over a serious issue (recusal failure re prior threat to block another, made on my Talk page), and were not based on any of the AE reports or RfAr/Clarifications, with respect to actions that were not covered by the ban as understood at that time. To avoid disruption, I accepted a much tighter definition of the ban, and then, second incident in particular, was blocked for something that I never dreamed would be covered, that already existed during the tightening clarification, and that hadn't been considered to be a violation previously, and without warning, other than uselessly general ones. --Abd (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Abd
Comment by Verbal
Two quick points, having not read all of Abd's wall-o-text. 1, is there/shouldn't there be a limit on the length of Abd's response? Collapsing bits isn't a substitute. 2, Ghost is in the pseudoscience category, via the paranormal category, so his reasoning on that whole point is faulty (this doesn't preclude other instances of his reasoning being faulty). Verbal chat 18:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Could we impose a community remedy requiring Abd to communicate normally? Five or six brief sentences should be enough for anybody. Continually injecting these thousand-word essays into discussions on Misplaced Pages is perhaps the most destructive of Abd's activities. --TS 19:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I believe this was a restriction or similar (recommendation?) placed on him at the close of a previous arbcom case. Verbal chat 19:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
@Abd I haven't brought a dispute here, that Ghost is in the PS category (whether that category is on the page or not) is an easily verifiable fact, and a fact that no one has disputed - or can without being shown to be wrong. And yes, there is a harm especially when they contain incorrect statements that at first blush appear true - such as saying Ghost isn't in the PS cat, or that this is disputed. The level of it's inclusion has been a topic of minor dispute, but it's still there (Cat Ghosts -> cat paranormal -> cat pseudoscience). Also, there is a simple way of ending Abd's attachment to AE and ArbCom, which would be a net positive for the project. Verbal chat 19:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Hans On ghost I feel it is justified, on witches I'm not really interested, and I don't know of any other article where this has been pushed, and it's not relevant either. As for Ghost, I honestly disagree with you there. Please calm down - I'm not part of any gang (not even one of abd's famous cabals). Verbal chat 19:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Hans Adler
Concerning Enric's diffs #1 and #4:
Abd removed two passages based on crass misrepresentations of an NSF paper. Every editor with a bit of experience with scientific or scholarly work (such as having written and refereed scientific publications) can see immediately that these paragraphs were quote-mined and quoted out of context. #1 was worse than #4 in that it appeared in article space. The passage would have been somewhat defensible (although still problematic) if it had appeared in the body of the article. But putting it in the lead is simply not reasonable and makes it a misquotation. #4 was worse than #1 in that it contained a lie. A lie that was put at the head of the article talk page in order to intimidate other editors and make them believe Ghost is without any doubt a pseudoscience topic, because: "The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, has identified belief in ten subjects to be pseudoscientific beliefs. They are: ghosts, witches, reincarnation, ." Yes, that's what it claimed, with reference to a section "Belief in Pseudoscience" of Chapter 7 ("Public Attitudes and Understanding") of the 2006 edition (only) of a biannual NSF publication on "Science and Engineering Indicators".
The front matter of the paper is broken (404 error), so we don't even know who wrote that section. It certainly doesn't speak about "scientific consensus", that's all BullRangifer's original research. It doesn't claim to "identify" any beliefs in any way. It just looks at Americans' belief in pseudoscience by considering a Gallup study that examines belief in paranormal. In this context, the paper is written under the tacit assumption that paranormal implies pseudoscience to the extent necessary for the discussion, but never says so explicitly. What makes this really fishy is that the paragraph that suggests that belief in ghosts and (via a footnote) witchcraft is (sometimes? usually? always?) belief in pseudoscience is preceded by a paragraph with a correct definition of pseudoscience ("claims presented so that they appear scientific even though "), but nothing is said about the obvious contradiction.
To me, Abd does not seem to be a big problem at the moment. BullRangifer and Verbal are currently creating disruption over more and more articles and policy pages with their attempts to apply the "pseudoscience" label to everything and the kitchen sink, making liberal use of unethical methods in the process. Please take that into account. Hans Adler 19:32, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- @Abd: The ameliorating factor is precisely what I am driving at. There is a danger that some people make up their minds too quickly about the Ghost situation, allow that to influence their opinion about this request, and are reluctant to revise their position when Ghost comes up later elsewhere, because they have already acted on their original position. Hans Adler 10:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by JzG
The edit to Ghost and involvement in the dispute there is an unambiguous violation of the restriction on becoming involved in disputes in which Abd is not an originating party. Claiming that it was not related to pseudoscience because the category was not in the article at the time is both false and blatant Wikilawyering since the entire dispute is about the categorisation of this subject as pseudoscience.
Hans is arguing that the content of the edits was right. This is irrelevant. It was a dispute and Abd piled in to make a controversial edit taking one side of an existing dispute. Sure, Hans likes the result, Hans is one of those on the side of removing all references to the NST's categorisation of belief in ghosts as pseudoscience, but that is not the point at issue, the point at issue is: did Abd violate his ban on becoming involved in pre-existing disputes? It is unarguably true that this is precisely what he did.
The spam blacklist discussions are also violations of the restriction on becoming involved in disputes in which Abd is not an originating party. Asserting that there is no problem because people can ignore him is blatant Wikilawyering against the clear intent of the restriction, the context of which includes Abd's involvement in spam blacklist / whitelist discussions. Songfacts is a dispute involving an IP editor who has been spamming the site, that is not Abd's battle.
The comments by Abd above are unambiguous violations of the requirement not to continually rake over the coals of past disputes - in effect "whatever you say, I was still right".
Enforcement, please. Guy (Help!) 10:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment by One Night In Hackney
Following on from what JzG says, the songfacts intervention here is decidedly unhelpful. When he states "It appears that this is not a site with pure user-generated content. Users may submit content but it is reviewed and fact-checked before being published" this has no basis in reality. songfacts.com/legal.php (no direct link to avoid cocking up the blacklisting) says "Songfacts, LLC does not guarantee the accuracy of the information posted, as it may contain technical and factual errors", so there is no reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Abd is simply attempting to crusade against the use of the blacklist in cases he doesn't think it appropriate, regardless of the actual facts of the situation. I would agree wholeheartedly with enforcement, the constant pushing of the limits of his editing restriction need to be dealt with firmly. 2 lines of K303 14:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Additional comment by Enric Naval
Abd keeps making edits related to the pseudoscience dispute, in which he is not an originating party. He has removed the pseudoscience category from another article he had never edited before. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:41, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Additional comment by SamJohnston
As I said in the clarification, if you break it down this appears to be fairly straightforward:
- Was there an existing dispute? Yes
- Did Abd discuss the dispute? Yes (unsigned)
- Was Abd an originating party? No.
I don't believe that confining commentary to edit summaries and/or new threads evades the restriction because it includes, but is not limited to talk pages et al. That said, the editing restriction is intended to avoid inflaming disputes, not prevent Abd from editing altogether (we have blocks for that). With this interpretation Abd would be able to edit provided he avoided hotspots and raised his own new issues as required.
While Abd claims above that this edit was "unsigned and probably inadvertent", it is still a clear violation and should result in a block - even a short one - particularly in light of subsequent editing relating to the same controversial topic. Future violations should be similarly punished, ideally with minimal time-wasting, navel-gazing discussion. If I were Abd I'd be focusing on uncontroversial edits with a view to having my restriction reviewed. -- samj in 15:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- How is pointing out a blatantly obvious violation of your editing restriction "beating a dead horse"? While we're at it, how does a 350 word interjection into an existing debate "inadvertently" appear, without a signature no less? Is this because of the flu too? You broke the restriction so you should be blocked and if you break it again you should be blocked again - sounds fair enough to me. If you don't want to be blocked then don't constantly test the limits. -- samj in 21:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- It occurs me that Abd's motivation for being an editor could well be sparring with other editors rather than actual, uncontroversial editing. He talks about being more concerned about the "welfare of the project" than "personal editing rights" while making an ultimatum saying "bye, folks, if nothing changes" because he's "so restricted that can't edit Misplaced Pages, in substance". How hard is it to follow arbitrators' advice and "find a quiet area to work in" rather than jumping head first into existing disputes? If this is indeed the case then routine enforcement of the editing restriction should prove an effective remedy. -- samj in 05:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Comment by uninvolved Ncmvocalist
I'm not convinced that the current sanctions are sufficient to address the core issues, like overwhelming discussion with excessive posting - I've made a community sanction proposal that I think does a better job of addressing that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Abd
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.