Misplaced Pages

Talk:Nobility

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Editor8888 (talk | contribs) at 15:47, 24 March 2010 (→Status of the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 15:47, 24 March 2010 by Editor8888 (talk | contribs) (→Status of the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
WikiProject iconPolitics Stub‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSociology Stub‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconHeraldry and vexillology Unassessed
WikiProject iconNobility is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Heraldry and vexillologyWikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyTemplate:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyheraldry and vexillology
???This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Nobility in Abstraction

I am going to challenge this idea of Nobility and the concept of blue blood. Thank you Jordanp -map —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.233.207 (talk) 14:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this article lacks any connection to the notion of nobility in the sense of the word associated with the character trait; no page on the disambiguation page deals with it either. Whether from some sort of social-historical standpoint or from an ethics standpoint, it seems like that is very clearly lacking. While I don't want to spark some complicated Ethics argument, I would suggest you take a look at the sidebar on the Ethics page to see some of the other abstractions that have lengthy pages - Justice covers a broad range of meanings, as do several others. I think nobility is of the same, or a similar enough, class of abstractions to merit attention here. Jordanp (talk) 09:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Middle-Eastern Nobility

Under the section listing nobility in different countries around the world, I see no middle-eastern nobility lists. Why? Could someone with a greater understanding of such titles maybe include them?

Early talk

I propose, moving the article at Ranks of nobility and peerage to here and merging with Titles of nobility and noble. I think the article at peerage is sufficiently well rounded to remain as it is, where it is.

Should the femenine versions of the titles be added? Theanthrope 16:51 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't know how to do the formatting but perhaps someone else can add the following femenine versions of the titles.

Duke - Duchess Duc - Duchesse Duca - Duchessa Duque - Duquesa Prince - Princess Prince - Princesse Principe - Principessa Príncipe - Princesa Earl / Count - Countes Comte Conte - Contessa Conde

How about nobility outside Europe? wshun 04:01 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I made the merger of several different entries on Nobility ("Noble", "Ranks of nobility and peerage", and "Title of nobility") in an effort avoid unnecessary duplication. Following this the German comital titles were spun off to Graf. There is still duplication in Royal and noble styles and the question whether or not to integrate that also is still open. Apart from this I think that the article itself is in quite a sorry state, and I feel that a more comprehensive approach is needed, and that would start with some form of basic outlay or definition of what constitutes a nobility. This should not be limited to the European Nobility, but have a more universal approach. -- Mic 15:04 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)


Doesn't nobility have to be granted/enforced by the government? And isn't it usualy associated with royalty/monarchy? The way it's described right now, Bill Gates could be a noble... -- Khym Chanur 08:55, Nov 24, 2003 (UTC)

Aristocracy

Nobility is a category contained within aristocracy, which is a term of wider application. Japanese nobles vis-a-vis samurai. Useful ideas for anyone working on this complicated sunject can be found in Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. Is Burke's Peerage or G.E.C. Cockaigne useful too? Wetman 14:34, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, given the fudge that had appeared in the story - aristocracy is a word with various, correct usages, one of which is to denote a general category of monied families, within which nobility is a more sharply defined, formal category. I will revert edits made on the basis that the modern usage is wrong, misguided, muddled, etc. True, the Ancient Greeks meant it to mean something similar to meritocracy. That's what they meant by it, but the word now serves other purposes in living usage. Words evolve. Let's not have wikipedia adjudicate on whether the way most people in fact use the word is etymologically legitimate. Adhib 14:37, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comparison with present day US

There was some discussion of the usefulness of compare current USA officials to feudal roles. The conclusions were:

  • The US is not a feudal realm.
  • This kind of comparison is simply not appropriate for an anternational encyclopaedia

Accordingly, the comparisons were removed from the article. -- Anon reworker

Article title

I reverted the last move, since neither old nor new title correspond the content. I thought of Social hierarchy, but the title is already taken. Before any further renaming, let's discuss the title first. Second, please don't forget to fix double redirects.

The problem is that the article collected a good deal of text about non-nobles. I see two solutions: (a) a more general title; (b) splitting article in two (or more).

Any suggestions? Mikkalai 01:59, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

By the way, there are two drawbacks of the article: (1) poor definition of "Nobility" and (2) the article overwhelmingly speaks of European nobility, hence the title must correspond. Thus, I see the article to be split into three: (a) Nobility, Commoner, European nobility (and kill all comparison to USA; one may easily operate in Euro). Mikkalai 02:30, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually, into four: kings and emperors are not nobles, they are Sovereigns. The article is a total mess now. Mikkalai 02:30, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think that the article definitely should be split in (at least) two: one about nobility in general - it's origins, role, etc. (including non-Western European feudal systems), and the other one about aristocratic ranks and titles. Note that such elaborate systems of nobility ranks were often unknown outside Western Europe (in Poland the use of titles was even prohibited due to the principle of nobles' equality). --Kpalion 03:17, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Kpalion, there's already articles on European aristocratic ranks and titles at other places. Peerage does it for Britain, for instance, but I know there's a more general page about noble ranks in Europe in general. Also, is that really true about Poland? Weren't there Counts and Princes? john 17:29, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In that case the table from this article should be merged there or deleted.
As for Poland-Lithuania, yes that's generally true. Of course, there was some hierarchy but it was based on offices (like voivods, prefects, castellans, judges, etc.), not inherited ranks (so it was more modern in some way). Only a handful of old aristocratic (mostly Lithuanian, I think) families were allowed to use the title of duke prince (książę). But there were no marquises, barons, earls, etc. The nobility was, in priciple, "free and equal". Some nobles could have had such titles granted by foreign monarchs but they couldn't use them in Poland. After the partitions, however, it was quite ususal for nobles to simply buy aristocratic titles from Prussian or Austrian governments, which led to mushrooming of Polish counts, barons, etc.
--Kpalion 22:37, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Okay, makes sense. książę is frequently translated into English as "Prince" rather than "Duke," isn't it? john 22:41, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I guess you're right, "prince" is a better translation for the Polish książę (according to the Polish Misplaced Pages for instance). However, for some reason wielki książę is usually translated as "grand duke", not "grand prince", which, I think, leads to more confusion. --Kpalion 23:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, it's all very weird. In German, it's Großfürst, I believe, which is different from Großherzog, which makes a lot more sense. john 23:19, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
John, you wrote, there's already articles on European aristocratic ranks and titles at other places. Peerage does it for Britain, for instance, but I know there's a more general page about noble ranks in Europe in general.
Could you tell me where it actually is? I can't find it. --Kpalion 13:46, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

About American audience

I repeat. Please do not assume an American audience. This article is called "nobility". Baronets, esquire etc.. are not members of the nobility. The anachronistic comparisons to modern concepts of middle class etc.. are simply not appropriate. I have put a message on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Peerage for people to come here and comment. Mintguy (T)

This business of suggesting comparions between feudal nobility and the United States is beyond ludicrous, it offends me both as an American and as a historian. America does not have a tiered system. I suppose it can look that way, but to suggest a feudal organization belies a great ignorance. Mackensen 14:50, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hm.. I see you have something of a history with regard to adding less than entirely accurate information to articles. (Misplaced Pages:Vandalism_in_progress#User:Kenneth_Alan) I see no need for further discussion. Mintguy (T)

Sigh. A social class system is not the same thing as a nobility. john 17:30, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Scope of the article and removing info

A reasonable phrase from unreasonable quarrel above:

I assume from your bearing Mintguy, that ignoblity has no relation to the nobility, as you seem openly against including them referenced in an article together. Oh! Would that devalue the nobility's prominence??? A pity, not. They all deserve comparative analysis to demonstrate the intrinsic social values of each in relation to the others, showing the web of society, after all, without the ignobility to stomp on, there wouldn't be a nobility, Mintguy. Kenneth Alansson 16:28, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


About latest reverts: There was improper attempt to remove factual info (poor Baronets :-). If you think they don't fit this article, you must copy the info into another article, not just remove it altogether.
Now let me repeat my point once more, The title of the article is "Nobility". What one must do, is to (1) define the term properly (2) make separate artciles from the pieces of info taht don't fit and refer to them from here, possibly with brief summaries.

As for the web of society, there is the Social hierarchy article, with poor content, by the way. Mikkalai 17:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So please, who can explain the difference between the notions "nobility", peerage, Sovereign? in particular, why "Baronets, esquire etc.. are not members of the nobility"? (the Baronet) article says only that baronet is not a title of peerage. Esquires are even more confusing. Please do so without removing info from wikipedia by bold editing. This explanation IMO is part of definition. Mikkalai 17:12, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I understand that your comment about edit was as a joke. My only war actions were restoring info that was simply deleted without placing it elsewhere. The problem IMO is that all current active editors are not experts in the whole issue, for the whole world. Therefore please be more tolerant to each other's mistakes and misunderstandings. (for americans only: be smart, but not be smart ass :-) Just a few more logs into the fire: how does Indian caste system or Russian Table of Ranks fit here? (not even mentioned even in "Related articles") Mikkalai 17:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think they, as different concepts with different names and their own articles, should be referred to in a "see also" context. Theanthrope 17:58, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why do you find it necessary or acceptible to selectively insult americans? - Nunh-huh 17:52, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It seems Americans vacillate between thinking the rest of the world hates us and wanting to believe the rest of the world hates us. I don't know why this is but it's seemingly to justify the way we were acting anyway. It's a big planet, let's all chill out a bit. Theanthrope 17:58, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Thinking less globally, I was asking specifically why Mikkalai thought he should throw a gratuitous insult at americans onto this page, and why he thought it was appropriate. I don't think another personal opinion about Americans addresses that. I was specifically wondering if it's considered good Wikiquette to insult nationalities. If it is, perhaps we need to consider a rewrite of Wikiquette. -- Nunh-huh 18:06, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sorry and apologize; it was badly phrased. The idea was something along the lines: an american would say "don't be a smart ass", while an English would insult you in the most proper and correct way (sorry, I cannot give a good example, being not of nobility and poorly bred :-). Mikkalai 18:19, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Really not a problem, I just see it a lot on Misplaced Pages and I don't think it's real helpful. In any case, it's probably a good thing not to know too many British insults :) - Nunh-huh 18:24, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Protected

The page is protected from removal of information that probably does not belong here, but is nowhere else. Let's be constructive. Mikkalai 18:01, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mikkalai: you should not protect pages when you have been directly involved in an edit war for that page. Please remove the protection immediately!!!!!! Mintguy (T) 18:08, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have removed the protection. Mikkalai, please go through the usual channels if you want this protected. -- Decumanus | Talk 18:11, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


I really do not think that this pagr should be left with content such as the following nonsense:

Grand Duke, ruling² a grand duchy, akin to U.S. military commanders ruling military installations and vehicles overseas and in foreign, friendly or hostile territory, especially in times of war when martial law is proclaimed and/or invasion of another state results in toppling the native regime. It can also result from Nuclear-Biological-Chemical violence in war.
So I will revert it to the version without this and other deliberate nonsense added by the known vandal User:Kenneth Alan. Mikkalai, I suggest you take a look at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kenneth Alan now before you make any further judgements about what state this article should be left in. Mintguy (T)
I think the comparison to American elected offices is pretty silly. It doesn't need to be protected from removal. I wouldn't even call it "information". It's just someone's comparison of apples to oranges. The systems are different; comparing them is mostly meaningless. There are better ways to explain what a "baron" is. Capitalism does not equal feudalism. Try merging those two articles and you'll see that most people agree.
In case you didn't notice, together with "americanization" a lot of other useful information was stricken out. While I agree, it does not belong here, it should not have been stricken out totally. Mikkalai 18:43, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I didn't notice, in fact. I agree. You've done a good job keeping the good while removing the bad. Theanthrope 19:26, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I was just trying to add some missing femenine titles when i found this was locked. Can we sort this out soon, please? Theanthrope 18:16, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

First of all, the term in bold at the beginning of an article should be the same as the title. If you want to talk about Aristocratic heirarchy, please make a new article and sort out the ensuing mess there. The US comparison doesn't belong here. Theanthrope 18:29, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)


I do have a possibly helpful suggestion. You might find it more useful to put detailed discussion in geographic subsections. The idea of nobility in Continental Europe is rather different from the idea and implementation in Britain, and different again from its correlates elsewhere. Breaking the details into geographic sections should minimize conflict, as you won't have to say only that which is true everywhere and always. - Nunh-huh 18:33, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Similar to my ideas above. This article should be the summary of the term, with occasional examples and comparison table. Detailed hierarchy must go elsewhere, since it is Eurocentric. What about Chinese, Indian, Inka, Russian nobility? Did they have this notion at all? Mikkalai 18:47, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A comparative study on different systems of social hierarchy in geographic and historical subsections would be a very good thing but it wouldn't really belong here. Nobility is just one of social strata typical for only one social system (namely, feudalism). So what I suggest is expanding the article on Social hierarchy which is little more than a stub now. Nobility should be solely about nobility and even links to articles like Caste don't belong here. List of ranks doesn't belong here either, it should be moved to Aristocratic ranks or something like this, or perhaps British ranks because it seems quite Anglocentric to me. --Kpalion 21:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
British ranks are quite eloquently presented in British honours system and Peerage articles. Mikkalai

A piece that was unjustly lost

Instead of revert war I tried to cut out only "americanismus", but fount it difficult. Instead, I am putting here a piece that can be used anywhere else. Shame on you! Good bye my fair lords. Mikkalai 18:34, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This material is total nonsense. Gentry is part of the lower class? By any reasonable standard, all of these as low as Gentry are part of the upper class. And the definition of gentry and yeomanry is totally bogus and anachronistic. This is like a role-playing game definition of social classes. john 17:33, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? In England, it is very difficult to distinguish an esquire from a gentleman. They are both rich landowners who don't work. Knights, Baronets, and peers are frequently little different, except that they have titles, and may own more land (especially as you go up the scale). But it's a difference of quantity, not of quality. They are all upper class, and they all formed the ruling class of Britain up to 1911, or whenever, together. They intermarried. It was the same political class. And the gentry does not mean what you say it means - doctors and lawyers might be members of the gentry, but you are a gentleman by birth, not by attainments. Yeomanry you completely misunderstand. A yeoman is an independent landowner. They are fairly well-off, but not considered to be of high social rank. That is to say, they are middle class landowners. At any rate, these terms refer to rural English (especially) society. They can't be expanded to provide a discussion of social rank in general in a post-industrial society. They were already starting to be strained in the 19th century, when rich industrialists didn't really fit into the established categories, for instance. Neither did white collar workers, really. Why don't you read something beyond your RPG sourcebooks and come back later? john 06:02, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The article is about the nobility not about a social class system in general. As such, all this material is irrelevant to begin with. But even as a description of a social class system in general, it doesn't work. We shouldn't be making broad generalizations like this, and trying to fit every kind of society into a class framework devised in 18th century Britain, to begin with. john 06:58, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But the point is that you can't do that in some kind of generalized, contextless way. The role of the nobility in Britain today is different from their role two hundred years ago. Their role in France today is different yet again, and all these are different from their role in Poland in 1750. And all of these are different from the roles of a genuinely feudal nobility in, say, 1400. And all of these are different from the role of the Chinese nobility, or the Russian service nobility, and so on and so forth. john 07:33, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Note: A foreigner has no specific legal status in a host country, however, may be subject to host laws and/or perhaps be extradited to home country for judicial proceedings. Foreigners with diplomatic immunity do not get subject to host laws, but general travelers and tourists are routinely treated by local means.

1) These princely subrulers are extremely influential and dominate almost everything the country has to deal with, good and bad. There isn't much to challenge them, even the royalty in current command, unless they are minors. They will often argue or agree as they feel like, with little sensitivity to pressure from those above them or below, regardless of what pressure is applied.
2) Loss of sovereignty or fief does not necessarily lead to loss of title. The position in the ranking table is however accordingly adjusted. The occurrence of fiefs has changed from time to time, and from country to country. For instance, dukes in England rarely had a duchy to rule.
3) The term Peer is used in Britain, but the division could be argued to be of general value. These ranks tend to be quite steady and quite popular, and although the inheritants of these titles are often secure in their holdings, if they oppose The Crown, (by generally group effort)they tend to have to rework their efforts towards the monarch to retain their title if their efforts are suppressed, or they will have their offices replaced and they will only be allowed to gain an honourary title at any further time in life.
4) Dukes who are not actually or formerly sovereign, such as all British, French, and Spanish dukes, or who are not sons of sovereigns, as titulary dukes in many other countries, would not be considered to be of princely rank.
5) Honourary nobility with inherited estates honoured by law, but holders of such titles can and do get stripped of such status if they fail to conform to the norms of their class and will become "common", if so. There is an immense amount of social pressure to conform at high standards here that other classes do not feel they need to apply themselves to, as consistency keeps their honours afloat.
6) Not nobility but included here to show comparison, and the worker class that supplants the comparatively small amount of nobility above them. Without them, the nobility would have no reason to exist.
7) Not nobility and presented to show what the loss of Commoner status immediately applies to, generally there is a time for parole during incarceration, but sometimes not, due to the severity of the crime(s) committed.

Liege, feudal strata

Badly phrased and placed piece:

A nobleman was bound to his liege by a sworn oath of allegiance. The liege could be the monarch or another noble, forming a hierarchy, usually with a king at the top. Some of the other strata of feudal society were priests, burghers (i.e. city inhabitant) and peasants (i.e. farmer).

  1. All were bound by allegiance, not just nobles.
  2. Nobles were not only in feudal society.
  3. The article is not about feudal society. Besides, priests stil exist. Mikkalai 18:53, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Split

What is the point of splitting this article so that the ranks of nobilitiy now appear at Royal and noble ranks ans styles at Royal and noble styles? This article was originally balkanized into Ranks of nobility and peerage Titles of nobility and noble. And now we have the same thing again! Just what is the point? These individual articles will soon once again contain much duplicated information. Please restore this article. Mintguy (T) 10:18, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reasons for splitting the article:
  • Ranks, titles and styles, as described in the table, are mostly a Western European phenomenon (though nobility as such is not) so leaving it here would be too Occidentalocentric.
  • There is much more to nobility than ranks and styles. In feudal socities, nobles played very wide and important political, economic and cultural roles -- this article may be still expanded with much relevant information, not just a table of ranks (a peripheric topic in fact).
  • People kept trying to include royal and other titles (which had nothing to do with nobility) in the table. Now they will be able to list all of them -- from emperor to whatever is at the bottom of the scale -- in the new article on both Royal and noble styles.
--Kpalion 10:34, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Kpalion. This article ought to discuss nobility in general, a term which applies to numerous societies throughout the world. Specific details of systems of nobility in different countries of the world ought to go in specific articles on the nobility of those countries. We already have this for the British system in Peerage (although this title is probably anglocentric - there is/was a French peerage as well), but the rest of the world is decidedly sparsely covered. And, as Kpalion points out, noble titles are different from the status of nobility itself. In most countries in Europe, one can/could be noble without having any title. john 17:49, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

dab proposed

I was looking for information about the nobility of metals. Shouldn't there be a section on this page for this chemical process? If I find out anything on noble metals elsewhere, I'll post something here. - unsigned

You want noble metal. These are generally spoken of as a group, "noble metals", and the use of "nobility" to refer to them is rare, and I wouldn't expect "nobility" to reference metals any more than I'd expect "baseness" to. - Nunh-huh 00:48, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Categories

We currently have Category:Nobility as well as Category:Noble families. This may need some cleanup. Cf. Category talk:Noble families. --Joy 1 July 2005 23:42 (UTC)

Title conferral

Can a nobleman(Prince, Grand Duke, Duke, Marquess, Count, Viscount, Baron), besides Monarch(king/emperor) or Pope confer any noble title on a commoner ?

--Siyac 7 July 2005 11:19 (UTC)

No. – Kpalion (talk) 7 July 2005 09:52 (UTC)
Wrong. Sovereigns who are not kings, emperors or popes can grant titles of nobility. Such is the case in Luxembourg and was the case in many German grand duchies and duchies. Charles 19:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but a monarch is not a nobleman. Kpalion 20:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
You neglected to say so. Grand dukes who are opnly noble do not exist. The context in which the original poster must have meant was that kings and emperors obviously could/can grant titles. Charles 01:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rank

I have a question:

If a British baron was granted the title of Prince of HRE, does this mean that he anwsers to nobody except HRE Emperor ? Since the title of Prince of HRE is directly subject to HRE emperor.

Siyac 14:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

No. Firstly, because not all princes of HRE was directly subject of Empire (and some counts was), and secondly because Lord of UK is/was subject of British Crown. Yopie 01:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


Editing required

I am sorry to arrive on this talk page with such a critical message, but I feel this article needs severe editing. I have read through the talk page, and it looks as though there is some confusion about the scope of the article and about how material should be split between similar articles. I would give it a go, but I don't know enough about the subject. But something has to be done. I ended up on this page following a redirect. I read the introduction:

The nobility represents, or has represented, the higher stratum of a society in which not only social classes are distinguished, but also formal estates, usually alongside the clergy. The most distinctive feature of nobilty is that once acquired, it is passed to descendants, possibly according to some rules. The word "noble" in "nobility" also means "doing an act worthy of respect" to people.

...and I had absolutely no idea what it meant. The rest of the article follows the same pattern as the introduction. It needs to decide whether it is talking about Europe or the world and whether post-chivalry or earlier; it needs referencing; and after that, it needs a severe copyedit.

  • Is it saying that to be noble, one must hold estate? (First sentence.)
  • What is a formal estate? How does it differ from the estate of non-noble people? Is it land?
  • What is usually alongside the clergy?
  • The most distinctive feature of nobility is that it can be passed on? But lots of things can be passed on, from shoes to copyright to books to money. This does not distinguish nobility very much.
  • The dictionary definition looks poorly-worded at best and simply wrong at worst. My small desk dictionary lists four senses as an adjective and two as a noun, but "doing an act worthy of respect" is none of them.

Going on to the first sub-section:

Initially nobility descended from chivalry (or warrior class) in the feudal stage of the development of a society.
  • The article begins by claiming that nobility is a quality. At least, I think that's what it's saying. Chivalry isn't a quality. It's a set of codified behaviour from a particular period of European history. What has this to do with conceptions of nobility in Fiji, central America or in the Bible (which has numerous references to noblemen in both OT and NT)?
Originally, knights or nobles were mounted warriors who swore allegiance to their sovereign and promised to fight for him in exchange for allocation of land (usually together with serfs
  • Again, context required. Is this also chivalry-related and Euro-specific, or can it reasonably be applied to, say, the Scythians, too?
The invention of the Musket slowly eliminated the privately owned and operated armies of nobles in feudal societies during the time period of the Military Revolution.
  • Quite apart from the grammar (really, armies composed of nobles? What a delightful image), surely the outlawing of private armies by monarchs had an equal effect in some countries? Henry VII of England did exactly that long before muskets went into widespread use.

The entire article is like this. The talk page suggests there has been some difficulty in the past in defining the scope and content, and I am sorry to rake up what may be a sensitive subject to some. I am also sorry that this message is so negative. I have tried to include examples of the sorts of things which might help the reader. Misplaced Pages has some really really good articles on matters related to this, and there is no reason why this article can't match them. This is why I have placed a {cleanup-rewrite} template on the article. It needs to decide whether it is talking about Europe or the world and whether post-chivalry or earlier; it needs referencing; and after that, it needs a comprehensive copyedit.

--Telsa ((t)(c)) 16:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Telsa.--Counsel 21:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have rewritten large chunks of the article, including many of the sentences that you highlighted as inadequate. You also pointed out that the article needed to distinguish between those characteristics which apply to all nobles and those which apply only in Western/European nations; I have created a new section on "non-Western nobility" to address this problem. As I feel that I have solved all the major problems with the article, I have deleted the rewrite bar. Please read the article, and feel free to tell me (on my talk page) if you don't like my changes. Walton monarchist89 15:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Blue-blood

The term blue-blood redirects to the article. I would like to see some mention (perhaps an etymological history) of the term in this article. 24.126.199.129 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't redirect here; it's a slang term for nobility rather than a proper synonym. If you want to, please write an article on the topic yourself. Walton monarchist89 09:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

United States nobility

from the intro:

"Although the United States, like almost every society, has a privileged 'upper class' with great wealth and power, this does not entail a separate legal status"

  • cough* OJ Simpson

The US has a de-facto system of nobility -- and why shouldn't it?

De facto is not de jure. The United States Constitution expressly forbids states from granting titles of nobility, and also forbids those "holding an office of trust or profit under the United States" from "accepting any gift, emolument or title from a foreign King or Prince". Yes, the US has a privileged upper class with de facto hereditary status - but that isn't enough to make them noble. Nobility is a specific legal hereditary status; traditionally it must be conferred by a "fountain of honour", usually a king or prince. Social and economic status has nothing to do with actual nobility - in the past there have been nobles who have lost their family fortunes and lived in poverty. It is quite clear that there is no system of hereditary nobility in the United States. Walton monarchist89 10:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

(As for the Simpson affair, that's irrelevant. Commentators may feel that US citizens are treated differently in court on the grounds of their race, and indeed, this is probably true. But from a purely factual, verifiable legal perspective, all US citizens are equal before the law. Once again, de facto is not de jure. A word of warning: make sure your contributions are not politically slanted.) Walton monarchist89 10:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The United States does in fact have a small colonial aristocracy which, although lacking legal status, enjoys some equivalent prestige. Examples are the Lee family and Randolph family of Virginia, and the Carroll family of Maryland, the last actually descending from the ancient Gaelic nobility. Then there is the Kennedy family, ennobled by the Irish government and by the Vatican in the 20th century. See also First Families of Virginia and Boston Brahmin. DinDraithou (talk) 19:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources??

There are absolutely no citations of the sources used in this article. How can the sources of the claims here be traced to anyone but the author(s)? Kemet 17:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You will find no credible source to back this up because all Human Beings have Red Blood. I will challenge anyone to a debate of this issue. If any universal being has blood blue they should come visit me. -mapsurfer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.233.207 (talk) 14:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

External links to scam web sites

Someone (a Wiki user named 'Ghost rider1000') recently added an external link to a web site entitled "Royal Society of North America." This web site appears to ofter noble titles for sale. This would seem to almost certainly be some sort of a scam site. Can someone confirm this? -- and remove the external link if the site is a scam? -RobertBlacknut 06:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. This site is scam, without informational value. Yopie 09:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The external links you seem to be referring to are gone, but more had appeared that seemed irrelevant; I removed them. Sounds like the external links from this page merit attention.

contradictio in terminis

Article Nobel: Nobility, a hereditary caste

This article: Nobility is a government-privileged title which may be either hereditary (see hereditary titles) or for a lifetime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.87.123.110 (talk) 14:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Merging this Article with Ennoblement.

I would have to say that, as it stands, both Articles need some grammatical revisions.

Combining the two might be a good opportunity to do so, but it might be just as well to deal with them as separate entities, get "the bugs" worked out of each and then take a look at what's what.

And being the Grammatical stickler I am I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I would think that if it is decided to merge the Articles "Ennoblement" belongs within the Article on "Nobility", as Nobility is the broader term/concept.

Thank you for your time.

James

Rampant unicorn (talk) 05:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree, nothing happening on this in 3 years, will perform the action if no one else does. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 21:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Status of the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia

In reference to Sir Thomas Innes of Learney's comments on the status of armorial bearings in Scotland, FactStraight (talk) is removing any references to the status of the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia in this article, claiming comments are not NPOV and use peacock terms. The comments concerned state that the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia is authoritative and may be cited in the courts, and are supported by references. The Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia is Scotland's version of the Halsbury's Statutes. It is cited in courts as high up as the House of Lords, the UK's highest court. See for example the following links for evidence of its citation in the courts: Blackburn v Cowie, Moncrieff and another v Jamieson and others and Regina v Manchester Stipendiary Magistrate and the Lord Advocate Ex Parte Granada Television Ltd (Search for 'Stair'). There are many others. Authoritative when used in the sense here is a description of its legal status in that it carries an authority when cited in the courts. This is shown in the Open University's description of the work (You have to scroll down to see this). So these comments are simply a factual description of the status of the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia and are thus demonstrative of a NPOV and are not peacock terms, as they are descriptive and supported by references. I do not believe this description should be deleted repeatedly. Editor8888 (talk) 03:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Your edits are POV because they do not add relevant factual information (let alone "demonstrate the comments on the status of the Stair Memorial Encyclpaedia" -- who confers "status" on an encyclopedia?), but puffery: they are being inappropriately used to buttress one side of an argument (the current validity of Innes' opinion as to what constitutes "nobility" in Scotland). Simply let the quote speak for itself, and people can look up Innes and Stair to decide for themselves their "authoritativeness" (although I see that Misplaced Pages's article on the Stair encyclopedia is being suddenly "enhanced" to reflect its "authoritativeness"). Stair's general "authoritativeness" is not relevantly advanced in an article on "Nobility", and is off-topic. The contention that an encyclopedia has been cited in legal cases is meaningless and misleading because anything can be so cited -- and is then subject to rebuttal. Your claim that it is "authoritative" is not a declaration from either law or judge about Innes's opinion that there are non-peerage holders who are "nobility", but is a generic opinion about Stair intended to give the impression that Innes is authoritative because Stair reflects his POV, and that Stair has been cited judicially so Innes is somehow authoritative on this particular point. Peacockery is inappropriate and will be deleted. It isn't somehow acceptable because it can be referenced: it is how the referenced material is used that determines whether it is deletable exaggeration. Stop mixing opinion and fact to promote a POV that has been doubted by a judge of the Court of Session and increasingly challenged in recent years. FactStraight (talk) 12:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for outlining the basis for your view. I suggest you read this link. You will see that status is conferred on this encylopaedia by the Law Society of Scotland, through this official Scottish professional body's patronage of its production. Do not let the word 'encyclopaedia' confuse you; this is not simply one of any number of legal reference works, but is an authoritative statement of the Laws of Scotland. It is not cited in court as anyone may be and is not open to rebuttal. It would be necessary to demonstrate how and why it didn't apply. It is an authoritative statement of the law. If you are familiar with Halsbury's Statutes in England, you should know that Stair has the same status in Scotland. This is not opinion, but fact. Someone with expertise in this area would know this. The recent wording of the Nobility article was not neutral as it had been manipulated in a way to deny the present legal position as expounded in Scots law and to give undue emphasis to a single scholar who admits his opinions 'are far from definitive'. To accentuate this over the Laws of Scotland, where is the credibility in that? Also, the comments you refer to in the Court of Session were obiter, and the Court of the Lord Lyon has first jurisdiction over nobiliary matters. The article on the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia was not "enhanced", but created as none existed. Scots legal scholars and lawyers are free to verify its content. Weak insinuations will add no substance to a misunderstanding of the status of an important legal work. Nevertheless, I agree with you that a discussion about the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia is off topic for this article itself, so I have limited my amendment to state its provenance (i.e. who commissioned the publication). As you say, it is for interested parties to explore for themselves the relative authority of the sources. In fact other sources, such as the articles on Innes of Learney and Scottish heraldry, make it clear that nobility, or the noblesse, in Scotland encompasses what is known as the gentry in England. Innes of Learney's adjudications need to be understood in this sense and in the knowledge that the term is employed differently in different contexts. Editor8888 (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Categories: