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Sulmues

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Sulmues

User requesting enforcement

Athenean (talk) 05:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Sulmues (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

WP:ARBMAC#Principles#Purpose of Misplaced Pages

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

This user displays classic WP:BATTLE mentality. Many of his actions appear calculated and solely designed to irritate other editors as much as possible, without any obvious benefit to Misplaced Pages. Whether it is aggresively-worded, inane merger proposals accompanied by talkpage rants as a way of getting around the normal AfD process, or adding articles that have nothing to do with Albania to the Albania TF in a tendentious manner and then using inflammatory language on the TF page to rally the troops so as to make sure the Albanian National POV is represented , it just doesn't stop.

At Pyrros Dimas, a BLP article, he's been at it for months . Just when things had quieted down a bit, he has now managed to mis-read WP:MOSBIO and he has started the nonsense all over again . His proposal is utterly nonsensical (P.D. renounced his Albanian citizenship early on, and became notable after that) and based on a (deliberately?) flawed understanding of WP:MOSBIO. It's pretty clear he won't stop until he has had his way in that article. Such proposals are motivated by nothing more than nationalist feeling, generate tons of wikidrama, and do absolutely nothing to improve the encyclopedia.

Here he is aggressively editing another flashpoint article , adding massive amounts of inflammatory material while admonishing others to go to the talkpage and not revert him. The mere fact that on this very thread, he defends such edits as "very good" speaks volumes.

But most egregious of all is this post to another user's talkpage, urging him to create a new battleground article . Such inflammatory "we-are-victims" articles and the countless hours of wikidrama they invariably generate are the last thing this encyclopedia needs, especially in an area as troubled as the Balkans. Recruiting other editors to create battleground articles is the epitome of WP:BATTLE behavior (incidentally, User:Mladifilozof does nothing else on this encyclopedia but create such battleground articles). And this is in just the last two days! It just doesn't end with this guy, it's like his mind can't stop coming up with ways to create new battlegrounds. A couple of weeks ago I filed this AE request , where he only narrowly escaped a topic ban on the thinnest of technicalities. Yet instead of heeding the warning, it appears he has taken the fact that he got away with it as an endorsement and is now even more aggressive. Though he has also made positive contributions, I believe he causes far more harm to the project than good. I am convinced that there won't be peace and quiet on Albania-related topics as as long as this user is allowed to edit them. He was given a chance last time, and he blew it.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban from Albania-related topics

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I also see on this very thread that Sulmues is threatening to press ahead with the creation of a Cham Genocide article, even though a literature search reveals such a term doesn't exist . If that's not classic WP:BATTLE behavior, I don't know what is. Also, the stuff about Pyrrhus of Epirus and the antiquity articles is malarkey, but is very illustrative: Claims that he and the Molossians and Thesprotians are Albanians are WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. Pyrrhus' capital was in Arta, far to the south, he founded only *one* city, Antigonia (Chaonia), in the territory of present-day Albania. So what? Only nationalists consider Pyrrhus to be Albanian. There are plenty of Albanian nationalists that also consider Alexander the Great to be Albanian,. Does that mean that their views should be included in that article? Sulmues wild claims about "The Albanian archaeologists' NPOV is continuously deleted in Misplaced Pages by the Greek editors." is sheer nonsense, and his posts to the TF talkpage are a classic call to arms to ensure that the Albanian nationalist POV is represented in these articles. Nothing could be more WP:BATTLE than that. Today it's Pyrros Dimas and Pyrrhus of Epirus, tomorrow it's going to be Achilles (referring to this image ) and Alexander the Great (and probably still Pyrros Dimas). I also note that many of Sulmues' wild accusations on this thread are completely unfounded and beyond the pale, whether about my perceived "extreme rudeness" (when in fact it was he who was trolling my talkpage), "extreme edit-warring", or about "anyone who dares question Pyrrhus' Greek origins will be reported" (that's a funny way of describing academic and wikipedia consensus). Sulmues' claims on this thread that "I must have read that in some inappropriate website" are disingenuous and an insult to the community's intelligence. Athenean (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Sulmues

Statement by Sulmues

I know this editor (user:athenean) only because of his extreme edit-warring and the reports that he files against me. Only recently he got a block because of his edit-warring at Vjose. It is a mystery to me how an editor with more than 8k edits, such as Athenean, a Tutnum, would recur to edit-warring.

If an admin falls into the traps of this user:Athenean report, then I'll be glad to be topic banned and I'll quit Misplaced Pages, because that will mean that there is something wrong with the whole system. Athenean has made more reports against me than he has written any articles (only 4, see ), whereas I have written 75 (see here), out of which 72 only in the last three months, however he is a specialist in reporting people who contribute and use proper sources, and he'll make sure to revert them to death because of wp:idontlikeit. Below I will bring some reverts that he has made, notably in Albanian language, but just to give an example of the many reverts that he makes I'll bring this one where he liquidates me in a second as a POV editor, while deleting my sources. I could bring much more, but I am here to defend myself.

I am an incredibly valuable contributor to the Albanian Task force because of my edits and articles created. It is contributors like me that Athenean would love to kick out in order to assert his POV in Albania related topics: I am trying to enter through consensus NPOV whereas his POV pushing and continuous wp:harassment against me has been noted at the Arbmac talk page (Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia#Statement_by_sulmues). I know what this is all about: the article that I will write on the Cham Genocide. I have already asked for the collaboration of user:mladifilozof on the topic (see here) because he is a political analyst and his style would be more than helpful. Mladifilozof gently offered to help (). User:Athenean would love to prevent that from happening and he promptly reported me here (see here). 25k Cham Albanians were expulsed from Greece in 1944-1945 even though the discrimination started much earlier (see Cham_Albanians#Population_exchange_and_appropriation_of_property_.281923.E2.80.931926.29, Cham_Albanians#Discrimination_and_normalization_.281927.E2.80.931936.29, Cham_Albanians#Crackdown_under_the_Metaxas_regime_.281936.E2.80.931940.29, Cham_Albanians#First_expulsion, and Cham_Albanians#Involvement_in_the_Greek_Civil_War.2C_repatriation_by_ELAS_and_final_expulsion). An article on the Cham genocide is warranted in Misplaced Pages and I intend to write it. Everyone can then nominate it for deletion.

So far User:Athenean has accused me of socketpuppetry, edit-warring, you name it. He will never stop, until an admin will take a decision to block him for harassment. He is extremely rude when I talk to him in the talk page (see the most recent , ), or in the articles' talk page even though I have a point . I don't respond to his incivil comments and I swim away.

Now I'll address the accusations because I have to do so for respect of the time of the deciding admin. They are ALL ill-suited and my defense follows:

• inane merger proposals

How is a merger proposal inane? It actually makes sense to have Albanian nationalism merged to Greater Albania.

• accompanied by talkpage rants

This is not a rant: Many arguments in the article are not well supported. Nationalism seems to have started in Albania in 1994 after Edward Jacques according to Athenean POV. This just doesn't make sense.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Tsamiko dance. So I guess, it is Ok for User:Athenean to expel 25,000 Cham Albanians (children included), as collaborationist with the Nazis, but instead keep their dance in the Greek TF only, and not under the Albania TF? The Tsamiko Dance (Template:Lang-sq) is extremely popular in Albania, used in wedding parties. Not only that, but the dance has even more variants than it has in Greece, notably the Dance of Osman Taka. His partner, Alexikoua made sure to revert me ()--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Pyrrhus of Epirus lived in an area that is in modern Albania and that's where the most important archaeological excavations are made. The Albanian archaeologists' NPOV is continuously deleted in Misplaced Pages by the Greek editors. We are forced to keep our references here (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albania#Origin_of_Albanians) because we know that we'll be edit warred, reverted and reported. See four times deletions of user:Athenean only in Albanian language (, , , and ). We are not even allowed to put the article in the Albania TF (see revert where user Athenean even takes out my talk in the talk page with derogatory comments. Both Pyrrhus cities: Butrint, his main residence, and Antigonia_(Chaonia), are in modern Albania. The discoveries of neutral archaeologists that assert the Illyrian origin of Phyrrus are completely, arrogantly, and mysteriously ignored. Whomever dares to go against Pyrrhus' Greek origin and tries to bring sources about his Illyrian origin will be reported. Actually I reconsidered this in the Pyrrhus talk page and stroke my edits. It doesn't seem there is sufficient evidence to claim Illyrian origin of Pyrrhus. See Talk:Pyrrhus_of_Epirus#Albania_TF--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• .

I am trying to enter these articles under the Albania TF project. Both the Molossians and the Thesprotians (the last one correspond to the territories inhabited by Cham Albanians) cannot be under the Albania TF according to User:Athenean. I was reverted for each one of them () and (), and did not edit-war, but those areas of Southern Epirus have historically had an Albanian presence that culminated with the dinasty of Gjin Bue Shpata in the 14th century. The Greek editors continue to say that there is no link between the Illyrians and the Albanians, just to assert that in the antiquity the Molossians, Thesprotians and Chaonians were not Illyrians but Greek. Actually there is a lot of evidence to contrast that. In addition several Albanian archaeologists (Korkuti, Prendi, Ceka) endorse the continuity Pelasgian-Illyrian which makes the Greek editors infuriate more than anything else (Read ). These people have been archaeologists for the last 50 years and were not born yesterday.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• using inflammatory language on the TF page to rally the troops .

I don't know where you see the fire in my language. The fire is only in your reports. We are collaborating in our Albania TF to provide sources that are NPOV. There are no flames. Everything that the Albania TF stands for is good secondary sources.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• At Pyrros Dimas, a BLP article, he's been at it for months' .

Just when things had quieted down a bit, he has now managed to mis-read WP:MOSBIO and he has started the nonsense all over again .

Read Talk:Pyrros_Dimas#Per_Manual_of_Style_the_lead_paragraph_is_wrong. Read it carefully. I am right per MOS. Dimas was World's Vice Champion juniores, European Master and member of the Albanian national team in Weightlifting that placed 3rd in European Championship and 2nd in European Cup for Nations. He was notable already and at that time had no Greek citizenship. My proposal to mention that he holds both passports, but has Greek ethnicity is very sensible. You are getting continuous reverts from IP addresses because a lot of people are angry to read in Misplaced Pages that he is only Greek. He was a great Albanian champion way before he became a champion in Greece. Per MOS he was already notable, as I explain in the talk page. What is currently in the lead is to say the least controversial, besides being incorrect per Wiki policy. Can I add now that I know Pirro Dhima personally and that I have talked to him several times? I know exactly who he is and what he stands for, but this is outside the point. --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• It's pretty clear he won't stop until he has had his way in that article. Such proposals are motivated by nothing more than nationalist feeling, generate tons of wikidrama, and do absolutely nothing to improve the encyclopedia.

Actually all the wikidrama I get is from you.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Here he is aggressively editing another flashpoint article , adding massive amounts of inflammatory material while admonishing others to go to the talkpage and not revert him.

I made very good contributions (see difference. Filates was a town populated mostly with Albanians until 1945 when the final Cham Genocide occurred. You are trying to hide a genocide in Misplaced Pages using WP:AE to report me who is writing it down with plenty of good references. See reverts that were made to my very well sourced edits ( and , , through edit-warring of the tandem Megistias-Alexikoua. I did not engage in edit warring --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• But probably the worst of all is this post to another user's talkpage, urging him to create a new battleground article .

Mladifilozof is a professional political analyst. He has written plenty of articles on the Genocides and is the most respected person around to be able to help with the Cham Genocide. I pointed it out in the beginning that you just want the Cham Genocide to disappear from everywhere. Turkey has tried to do that with the Armenian Genocide, but couldn't do it.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• And this is in just the last two days! It just doesn't end with this guy, it's like his mind can't stop coming up with ways to create new battlegrounds. A couple of weeks ago I filed this AE request , where he only narrowly escaped a topic ban on the thinnest of technicalities.

So are you trying to make an OJ Sympson case here? This is unbelievable. There was absolutely nothing to support your claims and user:Sandstein didn't fall into your trap. I hope the next admin won't fall either. You know that I'll write Cham Genocide and I know that you'll bring it to AfD. Let me write it first and then you can bring it to AfD.--sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Though he has also made positive contributions, I believe he causes far more harm to the project than good. I am convinced that there won't be peace and quiet on Albania-related topics as as long as this user is allowed to edit them. He was given a chance last time, and he blew it.

Since I started to contribute heavily in December 2009 the number of the Albanian topics has almost doubled, because I have tagged many Albanian related topics, written articles and kept excellent communication with Albanian and non-Albanian users to improve our Task Force. The number of the Albanian related topics went from ~900 to 1700+ only in three months (see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Albania/To_Do_List)! Whether I am here to improve Misplaced Pages with my 6.4k edits and 75 articles that's not for you to decide. If I were you, I would focus more on writing articles than on reverting, edit-warring, and falsely reporting. Your behavior classically falls under wp:harassment, but I am too busy to report you and I have faith in the admins. I need to write down articles instead and take care of my Albania TF. Not only you are not leaving me alone but along with user:alexikouayou are also accusing other editors as soon as they join Misplaced Pages with false accusations of socketpuppetry, harassing them as soon as they start contributing (see (Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive#Report_date_March_13_2010.2C_01:24_.28UTC.29). You are harassing many Albanian contributors with your lack of faith and continuous battleground behavior. Look at yourself first before accusing anyone. I have been even too patient with you too. I should report you for harassment. --sulmues (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I am finished unless some other Greek editor makes any further accusations, which is usually the practice they follow when they accuse me. --sulmues (talk) 14:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok here they come: I am basically accused that the IP editors revert Alexikoua??? How can I be accused that your edit-warring is reverted? You just got out of a 3 day block , because you always revert and edit-war with derogatory comments. I have advised you several times not to edit-war but sort the issues in the talk page or through my user page. I usually will say to you in your talk page if I revert you, and we have had good collaborations for many articles, such as Andreas Zarbalas. Why not continue that? Ops, I noticed that you have already reverted my proper sourced additions in Filiates ( and ) and then the usual tag teamed revert by Megistias (). I won't engage in edit warring with you, don't have the time. You are disruptive with your edits. Shkumbin: You were reverted by other people, not by me. And yes, I agree with their edits , as you are trying to enter in Misplaced Pages that there are no Albanians South of Shkumbin, leaving half of the Albanian nation (the tosks) out of nowhere.

Regarding the fact that I disregarded user:sandstein's warning: I really took that warning seriously, but Sandstein had not read my answer fully when he made the decision. --sulmues (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the statement of user:tadija. user:ZjarriRrethues argumented very well about his goals, but his edit got messed up with a very disruptive edit that user:tadija just made, which completely messed up the timing of the postings (). That edit should be possibly reverted. That very revert to mess up the timing of the postings, and to have the last word is indicative enough of that person. I told him in his talk page to revert himself () but he didn't do it, and here is his mocking response --sulmues (talk) 16:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Again for Tadija. The last decent interaction I had with you was here. User_talk:Gaius_Claudius_Nero#Skanderbeg, where you didn't answer me. Then you jumped on the boat in the last two reports that user:athenean filed against me. Now you are bringing an edit from May 2008. In addition, could you please get comfortable with Misplaced Pages:Don't_template_the_regulars? That's the reason why I deleted that message. --sulmues (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the additional comment of user:Athenean. You just confirmed that all this is about your fear about the new article Cham Genocide. You can read that the Albanian government brought it up in the Paris Conference in 1946 (see here). You may also want to know that in Albania there is a 1994 law about the Cham Genocide see here, when 27 June is declared by the Albanian Government as the Day of the Cham Albanians who suffered Genocide fro the Greek Shauvinism. Plenty of more sources to come. Make sure to bring the article to AfD as soon as it's ready as you already did for all the Cham Albanians founding fathers of Albania (Veli Gërra (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Veli_Gërra), Jakup Veseli (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jakup_Veseli), Rexhep Demi (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Rexhep Demi), Azis Tahir Ajdonati (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Azis Tahir Ajdonati)). --sulmues (talk) 21:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Further comment for user:Athenean. Under Misplaced Pages:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F you can read that personal attacks include:

Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence.

If you continuously accuse with your diffs not supporting what you say, then this falls under harassment. In the last accusation you accused me of being incivil, and it turned out that all your diffs did not support that. Before you had accused meto be a Sockpuppet) endorsing a false accusation, and prior you had accused me at Moreschi's page again as a sock, again unjustly. They were all false accusations and proved so. But you did not stop, and I don't think you will until you get your way. Now you are reporting under wp:battleground and when all your diffs will be proved wrong, this will fall under harassment. You have been warned. You are harassing me. --sulmues (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Another comment on the accusations that you make to a newbie like you derogatorily call ZjarriRrethues. I think he is defending me based on my contributions, but also based on the fact that probably he senses that you won't stop with me and he is next in your agenda of accusation of every Albanian editor. He probably senses that you will never stop in making wikipedia your personal battleground and POV pushing place. You accuse me of hypocrisy about Pyrrhus of Epirus, but those edits were made in good faith and I stroke myself in the talk page. You have already accused ZjarriRrethues improperly to be a sockpuppet and have done so in several occasions. That falls under personal attacks and you have continued to do so after you had been warned ]--sulmues (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Talking of sockpuppets, it seems that instead, user:tadija is likely to be one even though it was not confirmed (see ), only per intercession of a Serbian admin (User:Obradovic_Goran) that works for the Serbian wikipedia, which I found very odd. --sulmues (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Concluding, I think that I might have exagerated while I tagged Albania TF Pyrrhus of Epirus without having full proper sources. I must have read some website that is far from proper secondary sources. In addition my intention was mainly to bring to the community Albanian language sources for the two main cities that are in modern Albania, Antigonia (Chaonia) and Butrint, both founded by Pyrrhus, so my intentions were in good faith. However I apologize for that to the Misplaced Pages community: because I asserted that he might have Illyrian origin, while that still is not verifiable. I already apologized to the community in the talk page as well. But from here to say that I should be topic banned is a long way, I believe. All the other diffs do not support what user:Athenean is accusing me of. The Albania TF is a better place since I joined and many Albanian related topics are being covered. I think although I have received plenty of accusations from User:Athenean, and although he is a very proud person, he has a good logic and with some effort can learn to respect other users, because right now he is not respecting me. On my side, I will try to respect a little bit more him. --sulmues talk contributions 15:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Sulmues

Comment by Mladifilozof

"incidentally, User:Mladifilozof does nothing else on this encyclopedia but create such battleground articles".

Please Athenean, if you think that my behavior on Misplaced Pages is irregular or offensive, report me regularly and I shall have the right to defend myself. Do not accuse me behind my back. Thanks.--Mladifilozof (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by ZjarriRrethues

Although I have partially commented on this matter, since Athenean continues to try to get Sulmues blocked I'll reply again here. I told yesterday to Athenean to take it easy and not attack other users. About this matter:

• is as anyone can see a discussion where Sulmues says that if no one objects he will make the changes, so I can't understand how this is "agressive or inflamatory"
• He is asking from a user to write an article, since he thinks that user is more experienced. Again I don't really see why this is agressive.
• He posted a proposal and Athenean considers that "aggressive".
• As far as I can see this is sourced and isn't "inflammatory". I don't see how this is a problem according to Athenean.

• is a wikiproject talkpage so it is most normal to have such a message there and as far as I can tell he isn't "rallying" any "troops".

Generally, the language used in this report by Athenean is very aggressive, harassive and similar to other messages of Athenean like this . Also in this report users like Mladifilozof have been mentioned and accused and I think they should be informed.--— ZjarriRrethues — 11:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that this report is the result of overreaction and hostility. I think that all users should "take it easy" and spend their time improving wikipedia and not accusing and reporting each other, don't you all think?--— ZjarriRrethues —  13:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Tadija: User:Sulmues showed numerous times that we don't want to follow NPOV, and meatpuppetry is just one of his ways. Actually, i think that it is pointless to add ones again all problematic diff's that Sulmues did. However, Tadija has had virtually no interaction with Sulmues except the 2 reports(with this being the second one) against Sulmues initiated by Athenean and Alexikoua, which he supported. At least now certain things are clear...--— ZjarriRrethues —  15:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

How are any of these IPs related to Sulmues? I don't see any proof but accusations, so I'll regard your statement Alexikoua as a personal attack against him. In Shkumbin I see that the IPs are actually against Sulmues's consensus but that doesn't stop you Alexikoua from accusing him that they are collaborating with him. User:Tadija I see that you have had no interaction with User:Sulmues except when you again without having any interaction with him decided to support 's] report where Alexikoua reported Sulmues as a sock . If I may quote I see that you said This is such a DUCK, that i cannot say almost anything else which was proven wrong. Considering that this is the second time you interact with Sulmues and you do that only to support a report which is supported by the same users users who wanted to block him as a sockpuppet, is very suspicious.--— ZjarriRrethues —  15:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I also find it pecular that in the very few interactions you've had with Sulmues Tadija, most of them had as participants also Alexikoua or Athenean.

I think I should remind to Athenean that JulianColton has already warned him not to accuse me for being a sockpuppet/meatpuppet or anything else.--— ZjarriRrethues —  19:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tadija

As i told earlier, the most damaging way of editing wikipedia is trough WP:BATTLE. User:Sulmues showed numerous times that we don't want to follow NPOV, and meatpuppetry is just one of his ways. Actually, i think that it is pointless to add ones again all problematic diff's that Sulmues did. I also agree, regarded user:Mladifilozof remark by Athenean. At the end, i give up. Tried with some reverts, but i simply had no will to enter marathon discussion, each time with same "arguments" and conclusions. So, i am out of that. Both of them don't know what neutral means, and both of them uses wikipedia just as a tool of accomplishing they're instinctive desires and POV's. When they are joined, then everything else is pointless to discuss. Per ARBMAC conclusion, that kind of editing is highly unwelcome in Balkan related articles. I already talked to User:Prodego regarding this, so it will be wise to invite him also into conversation.

No more words from me. Everything is already said.

Use of the site for other purposes—including, but not limited to, 
advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle—is prohibited.

This is the main idea why ARBMAC is generally established, in the first place. --Tadija 14:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

@Zjarri - (No sources, despite more then 10 of them), (opened AfD, violation of the ban imposed here), (just one theory of Sulmues, Albanians as creators of Serb nation) (Warning about WP:FORUM that he deleted in the moment)...

And this is just few of them that i remember. Please, write in your own space, and don't write about things that are not true. Also, you dont need to comment everything on this page. One main comment will be good. --Tadija 16:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Alexikoua

Sulmues has been advised multiple times to calm down and avoid battlefield behavior ], but in vain. Last time he was warned for this ], but he completely rejected this warning ].

In the following days he continued this dangerous pattern. Although in some occasions, like in Shkumbin I&Sulmues initially reached an consensus ], but after a few days the usual ip army that follows Sulmues attacked. Characteristically Sulmues continued to edit the article after the ip disruption but without reverting them, proving that he enjoyed this activity. Same situation in Filiates, Sulmues makes massive pov edits without initiating any discussion in article's talk page, he is reverted, but suddenly the ip army strikes again and restores his massive edits. In Pyrros Dimas he uses the dirsuption, created by ips ], as an argument to promote his pov verion.Alexikoua (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Some other examples are his late obsession to create the Cham Genocide (suppose to describe events already described in Expulsion of Cham Albanians but promoting his personal POV), and to support the 'Albanian POV' as he says here ]. I see that his recent warning was just the reason to initiate a more massive wp:battle.Alexikoua (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

What really impresses me is that User:Sulmues has never admitted that he overdid it (at least a little) after all this discussions, blocks and topic bans he received. Although he has been warned several times to avoid wp:battle by third part users ] he mysteriously insists to play the victim of the situation, launching accusation against everyone. No wonder, he promised to continue his wp:battle behavior in near future ].Alexikoua (talk) 14:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Lontech

Sulmues has made an extraordinary contribution to the improvement of articles

Allegations are from users without credibility (like tadija with more than one account-socks). and non-neutral users like Athenean and Aleksikoua who oppose everything that is against the greece politics(nationalism).-- LONTECH  Talk  22:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Megistias

Sulmues has a static monolith of an opinion and stance on things that lacks all and any elasticity that would give him room for improvement and a positive view on things. According to him diff Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard Quote: "but the Greek editors (Athenean, Megistias, Alexikoua) work to prove that the Albanians have no connections with the Illyrians"..."seems like a very good plan to make today's Albanians seem as if they are foreigners in their own land, not autochtonous, which in the Balkans would be only the Greek population. No other population in the Balkans can enjoy the autochtonous status but the Greeks, according to these three editors."... "This is the standard that these three editors are following in all the history articles especially in the Illyrian Albanian articles that have been usurpated by them", etc, etc. The fact that he goes on expressing such views, and acting upon them, bearing a staunch belief that they are the state of affairs and motive behind activities makes this user's general attitude ligneous and unyielding. Megistias (talk) 11:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Kushtrim123

This is another bad faith nationalist driven report by users with blocks full of edit-warring blocks. Some of them like Athenean I found out that have been banned in the past from Balkans-related articles. Tadija has also been blocked because of having sockpuppets. Taking all of this in account, the explanations provided above for the so-called "proof against Sulmues", the large contributions of Sulmues in Albania-related articles, and the constant personal attacks against him by recently blocked users already blocked, I honestly must say that we should discard this so-called report as another harassive attack in a long series of personal attacks launched against him.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 14:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Sulmues

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Wikifan12345

Quzeyli

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Quzeyli

User requesting enforcement

Sardur (talk) 21:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC) Mcnabs (talk) 22:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Quzeyli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Last diffs (see infra) of Quzeyli's edit war on Amaras Monastery against several users:

1. Revert (30 March 2010)
2. Revert (31 March 2010)
3. Revert 3 hours after having been warned (31 March 2010)
4. Revert (1 April 2010)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Sardur (talk · contribs)

   I don't understand the question below: this warning was posted on Quzeyli's talk page on 31 March 2010. After this, he made again 2 reverts on Amaras Monastery, 1 revert on Yeghishe Arakyal Monastery, and 1 on Tsitsernavank Monastery. Sardur (talk) 08:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

At the minimum (see infra), Quzeyli should be placed under supervised editing and revert limitation.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Summary: edit war + Quzeyli reverts and sometimes discusses on talk, repeating always the same point without addressing other users' questions.
The three above-mentioned diffs are only the top of the iceberg: see the history of the article, which shows that Quzeyli is editwarring since 14 March 2010. The same can be said about Yeghishe Arakyal Monastery: history (first revert on 10 March 2010).
Quzeyli has been warned by third-parties about his disruptive behaviour: by Excirial for Amaras Monastery (20 March), and by SGGH for both articles (28 March). About this last warning, it should be noted that Quzeyli carried on with editwarring after both articles were semi-protected.
And now, he is repeating his disruptive behaviour on Tsitsernavank Monastery.

As soon as his blocking is over : revert and revert. Sardur (talk) 11:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Quzeyli

Statement by Quzeyli

Comments by others about the request concerning Quzeyli

Result concerning Quzeyli

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Please provide a link to where Quzeyli was warned of the existence of discretionary sanctions prior to the incident reported. Filest (aktl) 08:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
• User was blocked 24 hours for standard edit warring, not as an Arbitration Enforcement action. They have also now been notified of the sanctions that apply to the area, which I shall log on the case page. NW (Talk) 03:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Nableezy

Supreme Deliciousness, Vexorg, NickCT

User:Gatoclass

Request concerning User:Gatoclass

User requesting enforcement

--Mbz1 (talk) 14:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Users against whom enforcement is requested

• Gatoclass (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Principles

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. "Could there be any more demonization of Muslims crammed into this article? Practically every paragraph contains some instance of Muslims "attacking" Jews, none of it with any context whatever"
2. Removed the info supported by RS with the summary "no "expulsion" of Jews after Suez according to my sources (highlighted by me)
3. "Secondly, this claim does not conform with my own sources, which don't mention a Jewish expulsion from Egypt in '56" (highlighted by me).
4. badly sourced, POV rant
5. After I complained about "rant", I was explained that it is my presentation that made it rant. It was crossed out after my second complain.
6. "Well if he wrote copiously on the topic, you ought to be able to create a more nuanced article than a grab-bag of comments that make him sound like a cheerleader for Zionism"

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

"Not applicable"

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The article in question is Maimonides Synagogue. Gatoclass is an administrator, who has the say on the articles DYK nominations. The first difference I provided, in which the user claims "Practically every paragraph contains some instance of Muslims "attacking" Jews, none of it with any context whatever" is more than enough to kill the nomination. Please read the article. There are no any place describing Muslims attacking Jews, except the one instance that happened 800 years ago, when Bedouins tried to attack a burial procession of Maimonides, but stopped, when they learned whose burial procession it was. Each and every statement of the article is well sourced. In the second and the third differences the user makes a claim about his own sources, and removes well sourced info because of those mystical sources. The last two differences were provided to show the user language towards Israel and Zionists. The user is very involved with the subject, much more involved than an admin could allow himself to be involved. IMO the user should be banned on influencing DYK decisions on the articles with his more than unfair claims and POV. The administrators, who have much more power than regular users do have to be neutral. As it is shown by the differences I provided Gatoclass is not netural at all.Here are few differences of administrator Dravecky about Gatoclass conduct for my DYK nomination after the user deleted "promoted" nomination altogether without notifying me:

1. "...While not every commenter at AfD is DYK-savvy, certainly that's not true of you, Gatoclass. If you felt the article should have been tagged, you should have tagged it. If you felt the article should not have been promoted after it survived AfD, you should have objected on the DYK talk page."
2. "...To unilaterally completely delete a hook after promotion and without discussion, especially by an involved editor, is always going to create more controversy, both over the article and the tactics, than any discussion of the article by itself could ever raise."

• • • For the record administrator Dravecky is an uninvolved administrator, who voted for the article to be deleted BTW.

--Mbz1 (talk) 14:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC) }}

Discussion concerning Gatoclass

Statement by Gatoclass

Well I'm very sorry Mbz has seen fit to do this, and I don't believe this request has any substance. This all began when I opposed the promotion of Mbz's article Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948) at DYK. After the article was nominated at AfD (not by me), I left a !vote that described the article as a "POV rant". I do agree that the word "rant" was an unfortunate choice, in my defence it was late, I was very tired, and I had also been dealing with some POV-pushing on other pages (in an unrelated topic area) over the previous couple of days and was feeling quite exasperated. However, I also struck the comment as soon as Mbz complained - but rather than accept that amendment in good faith as an isolated error of judgement, Mbz has continued to hound me about it, to the point that he has now seen fit to open this enforcement request.

Mbz did not accept the judgement at DYK - not rendered by me alone, but by a number of the other regulars, not to mention the 17 or so who voted against the article at AfD - that the article was POV or in other ways unencyclopedic, and therefore unsuitable for the main page - leaving melodramatic complaints at my talk page and trying on several occasions to get the nom revived. Obviously, he wasn't at all reconciled with the result.

Now in the last day or two, Mbz has submitted a new article at DYK, called Maimonides Synagogue. After this article was brought to my attention by another user complaining about Mbz deleting criticism of the article at T:TDYK, a deletion that violates our conventions and that is clearly COI, I decided to check the nom myself. Again, like the Robert Kennedy article, I found it to be quite heavily POV and WP:COATRACK-ish, with a great deal of disparaging information about Muslims and not much about the ostensible topic. This time however, rather than just oppose the promotion of the article at DYK as with the Kennedy article, an approach which I noted with regret had left a residue of ill-feeling, I decided instead to try and help Mbz NPOV the article so that hopefully it could be promoted.

Sadly, instead of accepting my assistance in good faith, Mbz has decided to create more unnecessary drama by opening this RFE.

While I don't particularly want to retaliate against Mbz for this thread, what I will say is that dealing with Mbz over the last week or two has burned up an enormous amount of my free time, and considerably diminished my enthusiasm for the project in the short term. I could probably have reviewed 100 other submissions at DYK instead of dealing with his various protests and accusations, and quite frankly I have resented the distraction from my own content creation to try and fix the POV issues in his articles. I didn't expect any thanks for going out of my way to try and help fix his latest submission, but I certainly didn't expect him to open an RFE about it. At this point, I must confess that I am getting quite tired of dealing with Mbz, and in spite of his apparent inexperience at writing articles, am tempted to propose that he be topic banned from I-P related articles just to save anyone else from having to deal with the same tiresome behaviour. Gatoclass (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: brewcrewer's statement below, all I have to say is that his accusations are completely without substance. Gatoclass (talk) 16:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: brewcrewer's additional statement, he is in error to claim that removal of hooks from the queue is an "abuse" of admin powers - it's done on a regular basis, because sometimes hooks are promoted without adequate discussion. Hooks can be removed at any time in the DYK process, even after they have made it to the main page, if there is sufficient concern about them. Far from it being an abuse, it is part of our responsibility as admins to do so on occasion. Brewcrewer obviously does not understand the DYK process or he could not make such erroneous claims. Gatoclass (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Response to Mbz's latest comment

Up to this point I have asked for no action to be taken against Mbz, but I am now obliged to change my mind. In his latest post in this thread, Mbz makes the following comment about me (I quote): Now I know he does not allow to promote DYK nominations for the Holocaust related articles, and it is all I need to know about him. This is after just escaping a topic ban, and a warning from Sandstein not to engage in further WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. I am not prepared to accept being made the subject of any more base insinuations of this type. It is clear from this comment of Mbz's that he has learned absolutely nothing from this discussion and is intent on continuing in the same combative and accusatory manner that has thus far characterized all his interactions in I-P related discussions. I am therefore obliged to request that this user now be either topic banned in accordance with the earlier proposal, or blocked. Enough is enough. Gatoclass (talk) 01:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

This is truly extraordinary. In an attempt to justify his previous smear, Mbz is now dredging up an ancient content dispute, selectively quoting from my posts in order to try and make me look like a Holocaust denier. Will somebody please do something about this out-of-control user? This is getting beyond a joke. Gatoclass (talk) 04:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by other editors

Comment by Brewcrewer

I have nominated and approved numerous articles for DYK so I've interacted with all the editors that frequent Template talk:Did you know. In my experience, and I'm sure others can attest the same, Gatoclass frequently fights doggedly not to allow Israel or Holocaust related articles be approved for DYK. Template talk:Did you know has hundreds of edits a day, so it's really difficult to find old diffs. One example, which I have archived for easy access is Talk:Palestinian Land Law/Archive, where Gatoclass used his admin powers to remove an article from the queue after it was approved by another editor. Then proceeded to editwar in the article, defacing the article with templates, then claiming that the templates indicate that the article is problematic. If time permits I will track down more diffs which establish that Gatoclass has abused his admin powers to futher his POV in the I-P conflict. His AE comments, where he always falls on the side of the anti-Israel editor is further evidence of his POV. What I'm hoping from this is that Gatoclass can simply promise to avoid I-P articles that are up for DYK and stop abusing his admin powers in the process.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

@Mastcell: Removing an article from a DYK queue is something only an admin can do. Gatoclass removed an article after it was approved. Hence, a valid allegation of admin power abuse. For full background see Talk:Palestinian Land Law/Archive, where an approved article was removed from the DYK queue by Gatoclass, and there was a clear consensus for approval after it was removed.(He did the same thing in this instance case: using his admin powers to remove a hook after it was approved ) The I-P related articles that Gatoclass disapproved for a DYK were Palestinian Land Law, Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948), and the current one under discussion. I will find more if time permits. The Holocaust related article was The Soap Myth. As for "accusation of antisemitism and Holocaust denialism", in my 40k-odd edits, I've never made such an accusation and I would hope you would redact that. I'm pointing out a troubling trend, and the evidence of a troubling trend is reasonable. Actual diffs for the DYK discussion page are close to impossible to come by on such short notice because the page has hundreds of hundreds edits per day and there is no search mechanism at the page to find the diffs in old discussions.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by NickCT

Having had some experience w/ Mbz, I doubt this complaint has much substance. She seems very quick to point fingers at those who disagree with her, and resorts to extremely agressive editing when challenged. She's a fantastic photographer though! NickCT (talk) 16:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Is that an appropriate comment to make? Are you addressing the issue or attacking the editor? Have you backed up any of your claims? Breein1007 (talk) 16:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Breein1007, we cannot except an appropriate comment from nickct, not after he made that unwarranted accusation. Beside I have no problems neither with statements by nickct nor with the statement by vexorg, as well as I will not have any problems with any other users, commenting on me. I believe that an uninvolved and fair-minded administrator will be able to distinguish who is who here, and make the right decision based on the differences I provided by Gatoclass himself, by administrator Dravecky about unacceptable Gatoclass conduct on my DYK nomination, and the comments by user Brewcrewer.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm simply offering my opinion Bree. Take it or leave it.

It's a more than appropriate comment as it addresses whether the issue has merit, or is simply the result of over-zealousness. NickCT (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Vexorg

yes more unnecessary drama from Mbz1. In agreement with Gatoclass I propose Mbz1 be Topic banned from the I-P articles in order to prevent others from being time wasted by this stuff. Vexorg (talk) 16:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Seconded. A temporary topic ban at least. NickCT (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• What is this '4' ? - One editor lists 4 other editors and all of a sudden the 4 of us become the focus of attention. There are plenty of other people involved in this fracas. For example user:Stellarkid ( who has been one of the most disruptive ), Plot Spoiler, user:Wikifan12345, user:Breein1007 - Why should some users be topic banned and some not? Especially when some of those creating the most noise. And in any case a topic ban is not the correct remedy. The noise is coming from these tedious and seemingly endless arbitration reports that create a huge amount of everyone's time and energy. If anything you should ban us all from making arbitration reports. I only come here to defend myself. Take a look at the people who keep creating these reports. That's where the baiting is created. They know we have to stop by and defend outselves. Vexorg (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. There are probably a dozen editors here guilty of the same shinanigans on both sides of the debate. Are we REALLY going to go that route? NickCT (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Question to KillerChihuahua. I hope that as long as you support the topic ban on me you may provide some differences from the the article Maimonides Synagogue which might be characterized as

Ah, I see. So it is how it works? IMO one cannot make the opinion based on the opinions of other editors on me without actually looking into my contributions and providing differences to support the verdict. Otherwise it looks more like the Inquisition of Galileo than the verdict of a fair administrator, which I am sure you are .--Mbz1 (talk) 20:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Questions to MastCell I have three questions
  1. why you took differences from a different AE request and brought them here?
  2. You said: " I actually don't see a lot of problematic contributions from Gatoclass" Does it mean that you disagree with the comments by Dravecky I linked to above, and you personally see nothing unusual in deleting promoted DYK nomination?
  3. You said: "the first diff in the complaint is poor form, since it overly personalizes a dispute". Would you agree with me, if I am to say: If it were the truth, then it would have been a "poor form" to express it, but because it is not the truth it is not just a "poor form" to express it, but yet another POV attempted to kill DYK nomination, where that statement was made.

Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• • • I'll respond to #2, and perhaps that will touch on #3 as well. I see both Dravecky and Gatoclass making reasonable points here. Personally, I incline to Dravecky's perspective in that discussion more than Gatoclass'. What I think is truly noteworthy, though, is that they managed to discuss the issue without accusing one another of bigotry, anti-Semitism, or nationalistic lobbying. I have a substantial tolerance for differences of opinion where they are rationally expressed, as they were in that discussion. I have less tolerance for instances where disagreement is expressed in immediately personal and highly objectionable terms. That seemed to me to be the distinction here. MastCell  21:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• What is this '4' ? - One editor lists 4 other editors and all of a sudden the 4 of us become the focus of attention. There are plenty of other people involved in this fracas. For example user:Stellarkid ( who has been one of the most disruptive ), Plot Spoiler, user:Wikifan12345, user:Breein1007 - Why should some users be topic banned and some not? Especially when some of those creating the most noise. And in any case a topic ban is not the correct remedy. The noise is coming from these tedious and seemingly endless arbitration reports that create a huge amount of everyone's time and energy. If anything you should ban us all from making arbitration reports. I only come here to defend myself. Take a look at the people who keep creating these reports. That's where the baiting is created. They know we have to stop by and defend outselves. Vexorg (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. There are probably a dozen editors here guilty of the same shinanigans on both sides of the debate. Are we REALLY going to go that route? NickCT (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC) (non-admin comments moved here,  Sandstein  20:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC))

Eventually, it seems quite likely. Not necessarily all at once, though.  Sandstein  20:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand that the easiest way to proceed it is topic-ban the ones, who's right and the ones, who's wrong without actually looking into the matter. But before I am topic-banned please do provide me with the differences what I am topic-banned for except of course defending my DYK nominations against POV by administrator, and filing this AE request, and for which I still stay behind every word I posted here, and d BTW I practically edit no I/P conflict related articles, and I was not involved in any edit warring for a long time. Please try to be fair, if it is not so much to ask for. Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Supreme Deliciousness

I don't get this, am I supposed to get a topic ban for saying one word "lobby" ? When was that like 2 weeks ago? I said above that I can delete it if you want and I promise I wont say it again. What have I done really so a topic bann should be imposed on me? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC) (non-admin comments moved here,  Sandstein  20:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC))

I don't understand what 'topic bans' have to do with this either. Probably 90% of the disruptiveness has been in these Arbitration Reports and not the articles themselves. It seems those 'involved editors' who care calling for topic bans are trying to influence the content of the articles than genuinely trying to sort out the personal differences. I haven't doeen anything to warrant a topic ban either. I haven't edit warred for a long time. I've made a couple of edits that an editor on an opposing side has contended but that's nothing that can't be sorted out on the talk page. All I've done is recognise the existence of a group of editors with the same political agenda. Are they working as a cabal? I don't know. Mbz1 and Stellarkid are certainly a tag-team abnd Mbz1 has admitted fighting for the cause, even to the point of applauding other editors for getting blocks for the 'cause'. I genuinely can't understand what's so pejorative about calling someone a Zionist though. Is it something to be ashamed about? Like I said before I believe the appropriate action if any is to ban us all from making battleground and inflammatory Arbitration reports liek this one and several others. Vexorg (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• @Sandstein and other closing administrators: I do not mind being topic banned. I try to be fair to myself and to others. If I deserve to be topic-ban please do topic-ban me, but please provide the differences of my own contributions (not of what others are saying about me), but my own contributions to show what I am topic-banned for. Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment by Peter Cohen Per what I've said in another thread on this page. This is one of four I/P related enforcement threads on this page. Rather than picking out four people from this thread for action, I think all these threads plus the recent activity at AN/I need to be considered together with an admin taking time to consider the details. I not Sandstein's mention of a draft project below. I think somethinglike that will be the correct context to identify properly who should be sent before the firing squad.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by George

I've read through the administrator discussion below, and while I think Sandstein's suggestion for a WikiProject to better organize administrators is a good one that may eventually help improve the situation long term, I'm also somewhat confused by administrator reluctance to hand out topic bans (in general, not necessarily in this case). Keeping these editors around, time after time, only scares away less partisan, uninvolved editors, afraid to get caught up in the edit warring shit storm or accused of bias. It also drains Misplaced Pages resources by forcing administrators to go through these endlessly repeated (and reposted) cases, ad nauseum. If the editors in question are truly committed to Misplaced Pages's principles and improving the encyclopedia, they will find other areas of Misplaced Pages to improve when topic banned; if not, I would question if their purpose here is anything other than POV-pushing. There are thousands of editors on Misplaced Pages who could help improve these articles, but keeping around the handful of "bad apples" on both sides effectively scares them away from even touching these articles. ← George 21:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, George, you're talking about me. I am the one, who is afraid to edit I/P conflict articles. For the last few months I was mostly involved in editing of two articles that I started, one of which is about 800 years old synagogue cannot be even considered I/P conflict article. Beside those two of mine I edited few more without getting really involved in any, and that's it. Topic-ban me will be not only unfair, but it will not help to resolve anything about editing I/P conflict articles.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

But Mbz1 you haven't been just mostly editing two articles for the last few months. your post above is not an accurate representation of your behaviour. You were involved in one notable edit war with myself and a few others. You've also been extremely active in starting several arbitration reports, each of which have round into the thousands of words and wasted the time of an awful lot of people, including the poor old admins who have to wade through this stuff in order to apply a fair solution, and running around disupting all kinds of places on wikipedia reprating the same old accusations about editors you have on some kind of list. Persoanlly I don't think topic bans are the way to go, but if, and I say 'if' there's any topic bans, blocks or anything else to be handed out to any of us you are right at the top of the list. Vexorg (talk) 23:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment by Nsaum75 - I think George is onto something in terms of something needing to be done sooner rather than later. The disruption continues on both sides, and its difficult to move forward with productive editing when ever single edit made by one side is scrutinized by the other for "pov concerns", even when its something as simple as what country a photo was taken in. As it stands, I am even reluctant to make comments here out of concerns it may provoke discontent or lead to more drama here or elsewhere. --nsaum75 22:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with this sentiment, but I think the suggestion will be about as easy to implement as mid-east peace. If you were really going to end the disruption, you'd probably need to topic-ban all Israeli(s)/Arab(s) and thier descendents/relations. The simple truth is that anyone close to this issue is likely to be slightly biased and apt to make wikipedia a battleground.

Frankly, I'm resigned to wikipedia being a battleground. I wish it weren't so, and I'd reach out to anyone who like to help me bring peace. NickCT (talk) 22:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

But this is where mature editing and willingness to work with others comes into play. We are all bias by our very nature of being human, but the problem lies in the difference between editors who consistently show a willingness to work with others to move the project forward and those editors whose appear at an otherwise quiet or non-political or stable article and almost instantly turn it into "battlefield" with rash behavior, comments, and editing style. Keep in mind, there is something to be said for editors who are constantly popping up at AN/I and this enforcement page. --nsaum75 22:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Conclusion by Mbz1

1. No matter what accusations are made against me, or against anybody else involved for that matter,they should be supported by the differences of the editor own contributions. Otherwise the accusations are nothing more than the words without any prove.
2. No editor should be afraid to file a valid AE or a valid post on AN/I. For me personally this was my very first AE that I ever filed. I did comment on two or three, but never filed one myself before that one. BTW I filed only 2 reports on AN/I on the users involved in I/P conflict editing. One report ended up with indefinitely blocking the editor. The other was about Vexorg.
3. My concerns about Gatoclass are valid, and I stay behind them. I'd like to thank you, Brewcrewer, for your comment. I thought that Gatoclass does not allow to promote DYK nominations for well sourced articles about I/P conflict, or any articles about Jews/Muslims relationship that he does not like. Now I know he also does not allow to promote DYK nominations for the Holocaust related articles, and it is all I need to know about him. I repeat my initial request to topic-ban Gatoclass for any Jews related articles. He is an administrator, who is at least 10 times more powerful than a regular user is (remember he removed my promoted DYK nomination from queue and from the list). IMO administrators should be 10 times more neutral than a regular users are, and Gatoclass is not, just the opposite.
4. I was/am more than surprised by the highly unfair and unexplained reaction of KillerChihuahua, who I met the very first time today.
5. I'd like to thank MastCell and Sandstain, who tried to be fair, and I know it is not an easy and very time consuming task.
6. As I said few times already, I do not mind to be topic-banned assuming the differences from my own contributions could prove that I deserve to be topic-banned. I hardly edit I/P conflict related articles, topic-ban me will not change a thing on this ground, but please do what you believe is in the best interest of the project. Thank you all for commenting.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply by Vexorg Actually you've just made a good case for yourself to not be topic banned but to be blocked altogether. See your disruptivesness is far greater in carpet bombing these Arbitration reports. Myself and several other editors have wasted a huge amount of times defending ourselves against you and Stellarkid's relentless campaign to get us banned becuase of your political agenda. So yeah just Topic banning you wouldn't stop you with your Arbitration campaigns would it? Vexorg (talk) 02:19, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1 moved my reply to her points above - I have restored them.Vexorg (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Please stop moving my reply to your points above. My reply is specifically directed at the above!!!! This is the 2nd time you have moved my reply now. You do not own this space!!!! Vexorg (talk) 05:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

An interesting, but not surprising observation

1. "...At this point, I must confess that I am getting quite tired of dealing with Mbz, and in spite of his apparent inexperience at writing articles, am tempted to propose that he be topic banned from I-P related articles just to save anyone else from having to deal with the same tiresome behaviour." from statement made by Gatoclass at 16:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
2. "Up to this point I have asked for no action to be taken against Mbz, but I am now obliged to change my mind..." from statement made by Gatoclass at 01:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC) (in both cases highlighted by me)

It is the usual tactic of administrator in dealing with the DYK nominations, deletion requests, and now with me. He'd say something that is incorrect and let it be. The above example is the most recent one of course, but I could provide many more of those by request made in much more important places.

About my statement itself. Gatoclass, I only repeated what was said here, at that very AE, by the user I have absolutely no reason to doubt. Gatoclass IMO you should not be bothered by what I, or anybody else for that matter, are saying about you as long as you personally believe it is not the case. --Mbz1 (talk) 02:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Few quotes by Gatoclass denying DYK for the Holocaust related article

1. "...Thirdly, even if one took seriously the evidence presented by the Russians at Nuremberg that the Danzig Anatomic Institute conducted such experiments, AFAIK no evidence has ever been presented that the raw materials came specifically from the fat of Jews being slaughtered in Nazi extermination camps. Fourth, there is no source provided for the claim that the Nazis produced soap in small quantities at a nearby concentration camp, or rather, the provided source makes no such claim, and I've seen no such claim in any other source...."
2. "...The problem is not the hook, because I'm sure an NPOV hook could be found without too much trouble. The problem is that Historicist has slanted both The Soap Myth and the Soap made from human corpses articles to promote the view that the Nazis made soap out of human beings, when the majority of reputable scholars say there is no reliable evidence that they did so...."

And here are the sources that confirm the soap was made out of the corpses by nazi:

1. page 126
2. page 971 by William L. Shirer
3. page 71
4. page 294

--Mbz1 (talk) 04:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Yazan

Since I've been involved in this incidence since it started. I feel it is only fair to Gatoclass (whom I've seen put extraordinary effort at DYK, since I began helping there) to state my 2cents on the matter. I was the first editor to confirm Mbz1 nomination, and I went on to the article to fix some of the minor problems, such as formatting of sources and sections et all. But after two days, it was clear that the article was expanding in a rather suspicious manner which focused on very recent events and has stopped being an article about a synagogue but rather one about Jews in Egypt. I scratched my confirmation (which is well within my right in DYK convention), asked for a second opinion on the matter from more experienced users, and posted on the article's talk page. Her response was invariably accusative and out of context. She did scratch "Yet another try to kill a valid but unwanted nomination." after I called her up on it, but did not relent and wait for a second opinion on the matter. I posted a cordial message on her talk page explaining what, and why I did that and telling her that I will refrain from contributing to the article or the nomination further. She immediately deleted my message without response. Her problems with editors on DYK started soon after with her attempts at deleting the conversation (which is as GC noted, against convention), I didn't care to further involve myself in the matter and I made it clear after insistent posting on my talk page by Mbz1.

Please note, that I try as much as possible to avoid editing on I-P issues because it's less than gratifying and certainly not fun. Gatoclass has been accused of several things here that come very close to character defamation (especially for him, being an admin), and I believe an apology is in order. Yazan (talk) 02:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Yazan forgot to mention that he was involved together with Gatoclass in declining my first DTK nomination for Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948). The other thing that put me off was only 11 minutes difference between complaining on the article talk page, and reverting the promotion, without allowing me to react, but maybe I do own an apology to Yazan for assuming bad faith. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning User:Gatoclass

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Concur with topic ban for Mbz1; disagree with temporary nature of ban. Suggest that when banned, Mbz1 be allowed to request a lifting of the ban in the future, with a specified time to elapse prior to any such request. I suggest six months. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

  Reply to Mbz1: No. You seem to be confused about how this works. I have followed links and read comments by editors in the discussion section, and made my recommendation. I have no further interest nor involvement in this. I certainly am not going to get involved in an argument with you concerning one of the comments made by another editor. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 19:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Will people ever learn that you can't accuse someone of being a bigot, anti-Semite, or member of a "Zionist lobby" just because they disagree with you? Those are serious charges - if leveled at a living, identifiable person, they might be considered defamation - but apparently no one feels the need to substantiate their accusations here. For example:
  1. Vexorg: Mbz1 and Stellarkid are part of a "disingenuous Zionist lobby".
  2. NickCT: Amplifies on rhetoric about a "disingenuous Zionist lobby".
  3. Mbz1: Explicitly accuses Gatoclass of anti-Semitism ("Your dislike of Israel, Jews and Zionism...")
  4. Brewcrewer: accuses Gatoclass of "fighting doggedly" against "Israel or Holocaust related articles", but can't be bothered to supply diffs because that would be "difficult". Bonus accusation of administrative abuse by Gatoclass, again unsupported by any diffs. Again, calling someone an anti-Semite or closet Holocaust denialist is a serious accusation. You find the diffs before you make an accusation like that, no matter how "difficult" you think it will be.
• I actually don't see a lot of problematic contributions from Gatoclass; the first diff in the complaint is poor form, since it overly personalizes a dispute, but beyond that they seem within the standard of discussion on controversial issues (though I should note I don't see the "demonization of Muslims" at Maimonides Synagogue that Gatoclass complained of).

  But virtually everyone who has commented here comes off looking much worse than Gatoclass. If it were up to me, I'd probably start by topic-banning the 4 editors I cited above until they understand the minimum standards of interaction with people who hold differing viewpoints. Certainly this reaction to having a DYK hook questioned suggests a lack of perspective. In any case, I've said enough. I will leave this without action on my part, and will await additional administrative input. MastCell  19:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• I would support a topic ban on all four editors listed by Mastcell, along the same lines as the one I outlined for Mbz1. While I find that Mbz1's actions have been the most disruptive, and certainly attempting sanctions here has elevated, not helped, the disruption level, all four have been participants in very poor behavior and noticeably reduced the signal to noise ratio. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 19:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• A topic ban on all four is a considerably more indiscriminate measure than I would normally propose, but I can live with it, if only to lower the noise level on various fora for a while. They are certainly not all equally responsible for the recent flareups in the I/P conflict area, but they all contribute to this unproductive drama. If we do this, I can think of some more users that I may make subject to the same sanction if they show up in coomunity fora in battleground mode again. Instead of indefinite bans with an appeal option, though, I suggest time-limited bans of three to six months, just to spare us the four appeal discussions that are unlikely to be very illuminating. As to Gatoclass, some of their comments at issue here are not up to the standards of detached professionalism I would expect from an administrator working in this sensitive area, but I do not see a need to issue sanctions based on the situation as currently presented.  Sandstein  19:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Looking through the report above it appears to me that if we want to issue these broad topic bans, we might just as well include Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) for the same sort of battleground mentality comment, reported above but probably lost in the mudslinging.  Sandstein  20:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Nods, Sandstein is correct. If the ban is extended to the other three listed by MastCell, then SD should also be included. Again, I am willing to support this if this is consensus; my preference is for Mbz1, as the most egregious offender, and second choice for the expanded list. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: I agree a topic ban on all 4 is pretty indiscriminate. My proposal was based in part on frustration at the recurring unsavory aspects of the dialog; it may well be too severe, on reflection, to topic-ban the 4 people I listed (that's why I wanted to get other input rather than act myself). I also agree that it's hard to know where to draw the line - I happened to find those 4 editors by direct linkage from this report, but I agree with you that Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) is more or less indistinguishable from the sorts of behavior I listed above. In any case, I'm not going to push for the topic bans I mentioned above because, like you, part of me thinks it's a bit too harsh or indiscriminate. I would be open to less severe approaches that would facilitate more responsible discussion. It would seem that some parties have already committed to more careful choice of words in the future - if that's the case, then perhaps we should close on that note - hopefully the issue is resolved, and if not, presumably there will be less tolerance the next time around. MastCell  20:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• The problem is really how to adequately keep track of repeated misconduct so that if we do need to topic-ban people we can do it for their track record and not for isolated incidents. I'd appreciate your (and KillerChihuahua's) input with respect to this draft WikiProject intended to address this.  Sandstein  20:32, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• I'd be glad to take a look tomorrow; we certainly could use something which helps clarify the muddy waters in this area. Meanwhile, on the current issue: am I correct that although we share deep concerns regarding the other editors, we do not feel that a topic ban is warrented, although one would be indicated should such behavior continue? And I would appreciate clear opinions regarding the proposed topic ban for Mbz1 from both of you as well - thank you so much! KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with an expression of concern and no further sanctions at this point. The reason I proposed topic bans was not to punish a specific set of editors, but to make clear that there are some minimal acceptable standards of discourse (for example, it is unacceptable to handle disagreement by routinely accusing people of bigotry or nationalistic conspiracy without providing substantive evidence). Assuming that concern is understood, I don't see any need to be punitive. I will leave the question of Mbz1 to Sandstein, KC, and any other admin who stops by; my initial review was certainly concerning, but perhaps s/he should fall under the same umbrella of warning-but-no-sanctions this time around. MastCell  20:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• (ec with MastCell) I don't think that I'll impose a topic ban on anyone right now, not because I think that this would be unjust towards any of them individually, but because I would prefer to approach this in a somewhat more organized manner by compiling a track record of all involved and deciding on that basis (see the project draft). Also, banning the one or five editors who are in our sights right now and letting the others off with a (probably futile) warning would be a somewhat random and unsatisfying result. That said, I do not intend to oppose any ban on any or all of these editors, including Mbz1, that you or other admins may decide to impose using your own discretion.  Sandstein  20:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• That seems eminently sensible to me. I'm not prepared to ban anyone myself at this point, for essentially the same reasons that Sandstein has articulated. I'd be happy to go with Sandstein's approach. MastCell  21:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
• I will certainly not oppose my fellow admins' views in this; I wish to note extreme concern regarding Mbz1's actions and attitude, and apparent approach to this entire dispute as more of a conflict to be won rather than as a difference to be resolved. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:32, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• I share that concern, which in my view is unfortunately not limited to Mbz1 or even the other editors under discussion here. If there are no objections, then, I will close these two requests with no immediate action but a strong warning to all involved that continued battleground-like conduct may result in immediate topic bans, and that we may still decide to issue sanctions on the basis of the conduct discussed here at a later stage.  Sandstein  21:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Please see my response to Mbz's latest comments above. Gatoclass (talk) 03:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've closed the request above to get that out of the way. Now, yes, I am really concerned about these Holocaust soap DYK diffs provided by Mbz1. As Gatoclass says, these seem to reflect a bona fide content dispute about what the sources say, and Mbz1 brings them up here in a manner that gives the impression of having the intent to associate Gatoclass with Holocaust denial, and at any rate misuses the AE process for the discussion of a content dispute, which AE is not for. This has got to stop. While the soap issue is probably outside the scope of WP:ARBPIA, it being brought up here is part of a pattern of battleground conduct by Mbz1 mostly in an ARBPIA context. To stop this, under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions I am hereby topic-banning Mbz1 from all content and discussions related to the Israeli-Arab conflict, broadly construed and without exception for reverting vandalism or BLP violations, for three months.

Brewcrewer is warned against making wide-ranging serious accusations unsupported by specific diffs. Gatoclass, I strongly recommend that you recuse yourself from taking any administrator action or administrative action (e.g., deleting DYK hooks) with respect to editors you are in content-related disagreements with, as with Mbz1 here. (I've not evaluated whether you should have recused yourself at the time of the incidents under discussion, but you should now.)  Sandstein  06:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)