Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Iqinn (talk | contribs) at 01:48, 21 April 2010 (minor correction of my own words). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:NOR/N
• WP:NORN
• WP:ORN
• WP:OR/N

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Misplaced Pages: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

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articles about colors

FUI: I posted a note in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Color#Large_amount_of_original_research about the OR problem I accidentally noticed. Additional opinions are welcome. - Altenmann >t 05:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I would love to see any suggestions on how to deal with this. I've sort of given up on dealing with it, as it's pretty invasive in numerous articles despite my attempts ages ago to clean them up. PaleAqua (talk) 13:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Two dubious articles ?

Not sure what to do about these two articles. Colonization of Venus and Colonization of the outer Solar System both seem to run very much against Wiki policy on OR and directly against WP:FUTURE. The one about Venus also seems to be someone's 'pet' project. Are these OK? Or should they be nominated for AFD? If so, how is that done exactly? I've looked at the page but cant really follow it/the procedure. Wembwandt (talk) 11:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The topic is definitely notable, and so should not be sent to AFD (the result would be to keep it if you did). I don't see much that is OR in these articles (the ideas discussed are hardly original... science fiction writers have used them in their plots for years)... although I do think the article needs more in the way of sourcing to demonstrate exactly who says what . The articles would benefit from clearer attribution, mentioning who first proposed the various colonization techniques being discussed, and some discussion of whether others in the scientific community think the various ideas are realistic or not. Blueboar (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I agree that they are notable subjects but I dont see how they belong in Misplaced Pages given that they are entirely fictitious/speculative in nature. In several respects WP:FUTURE seems to say these articles do not belong here. I'm also concerned because they talk about colonization of other planets as if it was a matter of fact - something that could definitely be done - and this is very (very!) misleading. Surely Misplaced Pages cannot report wrong information like this? Worse still, looking at the edit history, it seems that any attempt to re-write the one about Venus in a more 'factual' manner, ie. to qualify the claims being made, seems to be reverted by a user. Wembwandt (talk) 10:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and I have seen extraordinarily misguided statements along the lines that it doesn't really matter if we stuff up the environment on this planet because by the time it's a real problem we can holiday on Mars or whatever. However, there are some battles that it is just not worth fighting, and this is one of them because trying to AfD these would just waste time. Instead, you might note here a small sample of original research from one of the articles and ask for ideas on how to proceed. Or perhaps provide a diff to OR being added. Johnuniq (talk) 01:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

We have articles on fiction... so that is not an issue. We also have lots of articles that are about theories... even fringe theories... if they are notable. The various theories about how the colonization of space might be achieved is definitely notable and should be discussed in a compendium of knowledge and ideas such as Misplaced Pages. Now... that said, the article could well contain Original research, unverified claims, and POV claptrap. Those should indeed be fixed. I would suggest taking it slow and go step by step. Fix one problem statement, and if you are reverted report it to the appropriate notice board with linked differences so that other editors know exactly what the problem you are trying to fix is. Don't move on to the next problem statement until you have had resolution on the first. Blueboar (talk) 02:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. WP:FUTURE states that Misplaced Pages is not for speculation which both articles are. Both need to be AFD'd as there's no way to remove all speculation and have anything even resembling a stub.

KoshVorlonNaluboutes,Aeria Gloris 13:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I had a brief look at Colonization of Venus. I am sure this has been written about enough, so that it's likely a notable topic. The problem here is the treatment, the organisation of the article. Currently the article itself is speculating, whether based on speculations by sources or based on original research. It is about a future event, and that is improper.

To fix it, it should be rewritten to be primarily about how people thought about colonization of Venus at various times. Who wrote about it scientifically or in novels? What did they say? How does the way they treated the subject reflect their respective period? That would be a proper article on the subject. The author is obviously more interested in speculating themselves. To some degree that can be hidden in a properly written article, in a way that makes such an article more pleasant to read. Hans Adler 13:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that WP:FUTURE applies here... the topic of these articles is current theories as to how colonization of space might be achieved. The articles do not state that such colonization will occur or speculate as to when. That said, I could see merging them into one article... perhaps entitled: Theories on achieving human colonization beyond Earth Blueboar (talk) 14:04, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Original research about Dili flag and coat of arms

User J. Patrick Fischer (talk) is owning the article of Dili, capital of East Timor. He is removing systematically the symbols of the city alleging they are not used anymore. The problem is that he doesn´t quote any relevant source to remove the symbols and prove they are not used anymore, despite there´s a law supporting them.

Domaleixo (talk)

The problem here is that both sides of the debate seem to be using OR arguments to support their edit war. My call... there is no requirement that an article include an image of a flag or a coat of arms... so it is probably better to avoid the argument by not including them until the issue can be settled one way or the other by reliable sources. This isn't based on any policy... just editorial judgment. Blueboar (talk) 14:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I gave sources to all my contributions. What source he is giving to support the removal of the symbols? None, he just doesn´t think they are used anymore. Domaleixo (talk)

Yes, you cite sources... what is in question is the reliability of those sources. Essentially you point to Colonial era Portuguese statutes concerning the flag and coat of arms of this city. Your argument is that these statutes are still in effect in East Timor... while Patrick's argument is that Independence, conquest and occupation by Indonesia, and subsequent re-Independence have rendered these statutes null and void. What is needed is a reliable source that answers this question. Without such a source, both views on the issue are essentially nothing more than personal opinions. Since I don't believe there is a reliable source that will answer the question... my advice is to simply avoid the issue, by not including any discussion or image of the flag and coat of arms. Blueboar (talk) 15:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I share blueboars opinion in this. I must have a different understanding of original research to Domaleixo. His arguement is that since no-one has shown a newer law negating a 1962 colonial law, then the COA and flag remain. is that not original research? Rather, don't we need something showing contemporary usage or otherwise? --Merbabu (talk) 22:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• Darwin linked several sources, which are proving, that Portuguese law is not anymore valid in Timor-Leste, but Aleixo doesn't accept it.
• There is not a city administration, which could use the old CoA and flag. There is only a district administration at the moment. (Sources linked in Talk:Dili)
• No one had a problem to use the images for the colonial time, but Aleixo insistence the usage at the prominent place in the Info-Box., noting them with "MAYBE still in use".
• Next problem is the colouring of one image. Aleixo doesn't accept, that Or on a flag is a yellow colour, not brownish.
• At last: Both images of Aleixo hae been deleted at Commons, because he mentioned at the discussion, he scaned them from a book of the 1960ies. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 06:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Monetary conversions - synthesis and how to document

I have an article that is strictly a US-based topic. I have found a UK article that attributes a useful approximate economic amount to this topic. Of course, the UK version lists it in British pounds, which is clearly not the measure that would have been used for the US-centric topic nor would make sense to use. The topic is such that I can determine within a month of when the monetary figure was generated and thus what the estimated conversion rate would have been - I'm not looking for the exact conversion but something that is an agreeable approximation in US dollars. Specifically, for example, the value of 60,000 British pounds would be approximately 90,000 USD for when this estimate would have been made. Would this be considered novel synthesis to avoid? I would not think so , since I have a date on the UK source and can also provide the quote from that source in the reference to reiterate their 60,000 figure in the attribution. --MASEM (t) 20:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Currency conversions demand more judgment than conversions of temperatures, lengths, etc because they are market driven and fluctuate significantly. Are there no US references giving a figure in dollars? If it's a US based topic it would seem likely a figure could be found in US references. But as a general rule if the conversion is straightforward and clearly appropriate to the context, this method qualifies per routine calculations. If a dispute arises that for a particular context the method used for conversion is suspect or misapplied then the figure is probably going to need references. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It's a relatively recent topic that I've been tracking, and this is the first time the cost figure has come up; the article was based on an interview with one of the people involved so this may have been the first time that question was even asked. And again, I'm not going for something accurate beyond a single significant figure - its meant to be a rough order of magnitude. It sounds like the best way is to include the cite of the UKP amount in the reference, so it's clear what the starting conversion number way. --MASEM (t) 15:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to let you know

There's a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Baseball about whether or not it's OR to include a photo of one specific player or a list of several players in an article about one baseball position. Purplebackpack89 04:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not original research to include mentions of some successful players, as long as they are sourced as such. Like most decisions on content, editorial decision-making has to be made about what to include. Same goes for things like pictures. Work it out. II | (t - c) 04:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Mina (singer)

User:212.66.125.160 keeps reinserting OR on the page. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 14:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you include diffs and an explanation next time? Is that IP the same as Saretttttta (talk · contribs), as a diff indicates? Anyway, I think I see the uncited information. Keep removing it, direct her to here for support for the action, and... well, eventually I guess you could appeal to an admin for a temporary block, seems disruptive. II | (t - c) 05:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

List of sovereign states

I've raised some concerns over how this list is constructed in this discussion on the talk page. Currently, the article has a section which describes a 5-point criteria for inclusion in the list. However, this criteria uses only one definition of a state (DTS over CTS) using one (of presumably many) metrics to measure "statelike characteristics" (Montevideo Convention). In addition, the criteria is inherently vague at best, especially the requirement that a state has the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states", and hence requires OR to determine if a state satisfies the criteria. I feel that this list, as currently constructed, is blatant SYN as no sources are provided which explicitly support the claims that all 5 points are satisfied, let alone that the entity is a MC state and hence sovereign. I've suggested several different ways in which the list could be made verifiable, such as eliminating the inclusion criteria altogether and instead using a RS's listing of sovereign states or creating a "List of internationally recognized states", but all have been met with resistance. There seems to be an acknowledgement that the list is OR, however the claim is that this is necessairy to get an accurate list and that the OR is merely reasonable people making reasonable conclusions from the evidence. However, a glance through the archives reveals pages of debates over whether a state satisfies the criteria, so I'm not so sure that the conclusions drawn are necessarily obvious. Also, I feel that verifiable alternative listing methods do exist. Any comments on the discussion would be much appreciated. TDL (talk) 14:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The list shouldn't use only one metric. It should use all the ones relevant to the topic. Just put in the commentary that it is included under a different criteria, and also note if that inclusion has been criticized. As it is I don't think it is original research; it is pretty obvious that most of the entries are states. I'm guessing the UN has a sovereignty requirement for membership. II | (t - c) 05:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Belarus, Ukraine, India, Philipines are examples of entities joining the UN before achieving independence. But I don't know if they were considered "sovereign" at that time. Alinor (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Alinor is certainly correct that in the past UN membership wasn't limited to sovereign states. However, I agree that today it's pretty obvious that all UN members are sovereign. The issue I have with the list is the Other states section. Entities in this section not only aren't UN members, but many are considered to be non-sovereign by every other foreign government. For these entities, a vague metric of 5 "state-like" characteristics is used to measure sovereignty for inclusion in the list. However, no sources are provided supporting the claims that these "marginal states" satisfy the criteria, and in fact I suspect that it might not be possible to verify these claims. ("capacity to enter into relations with the other states" is very difficult to quantify). I feel that the list should instead use a verifiable inclusion criteria (such as international recognition or inclusion on a RS's list of sovereign states). TDL (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Byelorussia and the Ukraine, anyway, were explicit special cases. The Soviet Union apparently argued that since Britain got multiple votes (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.), then the USSR should receive the same treatment.

Varlaam (talk) 06:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Identification of the carvings on the Forward Building

In this following discussion Talk:The Forward#Bas relief portraits, it seems pretty clear, based on a comparison of pictures, that the fourth bas relief on the Forward building is of August Bebel. However, reliable sources consistently identify it as other people, some of whom seem logically unlikely. Can one include in the article the likelihood that the carving is of Bebel, based on these arguments on the Talk: page? Jayjg 02:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If there's clear evidence that the sources are wrong and the editors involved agree then it's time for the editors involved to think about ignore all rules. We shouldn't be spreading misinformation for bureaucratic reasons. In this case mentioning the blog comment that the relief might be Arthur Bebel is relevant. II | (t - c) 04:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Disney Renaissance

• Disney Renaissance (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I believe that the very basis of this article is OR and/or synthesis. The article claims that during the 1980s, Walt Disney Animation Studios (then Walt Disney Feature Animation) experienced a loss in prestige that was largely catalyzed by the departure of Don Bluth. It then claims that Disney went through a "renaissance" beginning in 1989 in which it regained its prestige, then suffered a slump again after 1999.

Doing a quick Google search, it is very clear that the term "Disney Renaissance" is in the vernacular of the film and animation industries. However, most of the hits that define the concept are fansites, blogs, and/or movie reviews. I cannot find any reliable sources to back the claims that:

1. Don Bluth's departure from Disney catalyzed the slump in the 1980s (the only sources given are biographical pieces)
2. The Disney Renaissance ended in 1999 (the source given to back this claim is an opinion piece)
3. The films listed constituted the Disney Renaissance (the sources given only back up the films' box office revenue).

In summary, it appears that the very basis of this article is that editors looked at the box office revenue of Disney animated films over a certain time period and pieced them together to determine what constituted the Disney Renaissance. No reliable source I have found explicitly states that all the films listed constituted the Disney Renaissance, or when it began or ended. I should note that an editor has proposed merging this article with Walt Disney Animation Studios, a proposal which I have endorsed, but that discussion has had very little participation. —KuyaBriBri 17:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of RS attesting to the existence of the term and its rough definition, e.g.:

USAToday

Los Angeles Times

The Guardian

Cinefantastique (respected cinema journal)

book published by ABC-CLIO

book published by Octopus

book published by Oxford

So I certainly wouldn't reject the validity of the term. Whether the article is justified in being so dogmatic about the era's beginning and end is another matter.

One of the sources suggests Michael Eisner of Disney coined the term - that might be an avenue worth exploring. Barnabypage (talk) 20:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Seems to be plenty of sources; the second source listed by Barnabypage above says '"Roy learned fast, and his leadership helped to spark the Disney renaissance of the late 1980s and early '90s, the era of "The Little Mermaid," "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" "Beauty and the Beast," "Aladdin" and "The Lion King."', so clearly you can cite those films. I suggest copying Barnaby's list of sources over to the talk page. Can this be marked resolved? II | (t - c) 04:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Synthesis/original research at Efficient markets hypothesis

Aprock (talk · contribs) has been adding information to EMH saying that it is essentially disproven because it is NP-hard, and NP-hard problems are likely impossible to solve. I've gotten him to whittle this down into:

The problem of algorithmically constructing prices which reflect all available information has been studied extensively in the field of computer science. For example, the complexity of finding the arbitrage opportunities in pair betting markets has been shown to be NP-hard..

in Efficient_market_hypothesis#Theoretical_background. The discussion is at Talk:Efficient-market_hypothesis#Markets_are_efficient_if_and_only_if_P_.3D_NP. While he does have sources, none of the sources mention EMH. By including this other information he's trying to implicitly say that they are connected to EMH, but the sources don't make the connection. The editor seems to be working in good-faith but just has trouble understanding WP:SYNTH, so I'm hoping people here can help explain it. II | (t - c) 05:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Miracle of Chile

I have created a talk section in Miracle of Chile detailing what I feel is extensive OR. Among the problems, a vague definition of what exactly the 'Miracle of Chile' is, changing measurements of Chile's economy, variable dates for said 'miracle' and the title itself. I welcome discussions there or here. Thanks in advance. Bonewah (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Historical maps made by editors

It is quite an interesting subject, I suppose. Wiki encourages editors to create images on their own and post them as there are often problems with copyright issues ]. Those images are not OR if referenced. But now I have a question if maps are also included. How would a map be referenced? But the main question I am experiencing difficulties with are historical maps. For historical maps a very serious historical, geographical and topological researches have to be done. For creating a historical map by an editor seems impossible to be competent enough and I could claim any unpublished historical map made by any editor an OR or at least an Original Synthesis. Can we at all consider such made maps proper for an encyclopedia??? Thank you for your comments! Aregakn (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Synthesis and OR when deleting content

There's an argument going on over at Talk:Real-time tactics#Sources regarding whether WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS are pertinent when deleting material from articles as well as adding it. Quote: "Trivially untrue. Deletion can never be synthesis as it makes no claims in the article." Would appreciate some input, thanks. SharkD  Talk  23:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Austrian School, Methodology and economic prediction

I am concerned that some of the content of this section is original research. The article describes that Austrian economists criticised mainstream economists for failing to predict the recent economic crash, and provides sources for that. The article used to say that this 'glossed over' the many predictions of mainstream economists and gave sources for what the editor who included them thought were mainstream economists predicting the crash.

The article no longer contains the unsourced term 'glossed over' but it still takes the opinion of the editor including the information to establish that these are mainstream economists and that their warnings were representative of mainstream economic thought, and that this disputes the Austrians claim. The section lacks a third party source to say that mainstream economists in general predicted the crash - to use a phrase that was inappropriately in the article, 'cherry picking' retroactively among all published opinions of all economists to find a few that contradict the opinions of the Austrians seems to me to be original research, or at the very least a synthesis of disparate facts to arrive at a conclusion that is not given in any of the sources.

If it was mainstream economic thought prior to the collapse it should be really easy to find a source that says that, and if the economists cited are not representative of mainstream economic thought prior to the crash then there is no basis to say that a few random economists contradict the Austrian opinion that mainstream economics did not predict the crash. Either way it shouldn't require an ever expanding list of economists who a Wiki-editor thinks predicted the crash to show that mainstream economics did or didn't in general.

I have removed what I see to have been the original research and request comment. I previously removed the section to the talkpage and requested a source. Weakopedia (talk) 11:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I feel that the above statement requires elaboration.

A) Weakopedia seems to be wasting a fair amount of space complaining about issues that he admits no longer exists .

B) More importantly, he makes the statement that "The section lacks a third party source to say that mainstream economists in general predicted the crash," when, in fact, no such assertion is made in the wiki article, and consequently, no such sourcing is needed. Within the article, there is a claim describing a small minority group's perspective about mainstream economists; for weight balance, an assertion has been further added to the article basically stating the simple fact that "there exist economists associated with the mainstream who have been credited with prediction." The likely key to the problem is that User:Weakopedia's insertion of the term "in general" creates a strawman. In the disputed text, no such assertion is being made about anything "in general." BigK HeX (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

For clarity, I'll quote the current version of the section containing the disputed text below. The dispute is with the second sentence (which I have only partially co-authored).

Austrians also counter with the argument that mainstream economics has a very poor record of "scientific" prediction and note that mainstream economists generally failed to predict or warn of major economic events such as the recent Global Financial Crisis and the Great Depression.. However, economists associated with the mainstream economic schools have been credited with warning of the Global Financial Crisis, including Dean Baker, Wynne Godley, Michael Hudson, and Steve Keen.

BigK HeX (talk) 00:40, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Dean Baker has published one of his analyses in the Real World Economics Review, an explicitly heterodox publication connected with the movement for post autistic economics. Wynne Godley does work in the Cambridge school tradition of, say, Nicky Kaldor and Joan Robinson, now explicitly heterodox. Michael Hudson's doctorate is from the New School and is at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, also hotbeds of heterodoxy. Steve Keen wrote a whole book debunking neoclassical economics and explicitly identifies as a Post Keynesian. It is a howler to identify any of these as mainstream economists. Furthermore, the references in the article (e.g., Galbraith) explicitly identify those who called the recession as being out of the mainstream. No references, as I understand it, say otherwise. -- RLV 209.217.195.179 (talk) 07:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream in the context of the Austrian School refers to economists who use the empirical method and publish in peer-reviewed economic journals So all these economists are "mainstream" even if they do not adherence to orthodoxy. The Four Deuces (talk) 09:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that. Weakopedia (talk) 10:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with RLV. It's ridiculous to suggest that Keen or Baker are considered mainstream. They both self-identify themselves as excluded (shunned) by the mainstream. Keen explicitly states that neo-classical economics is a disease that has taken over mainstream academia. Also BigKHex is clearly opinion-pushing and OR-ing by linking to refs that do NOT state "mainstream economists predicted the GFC" but to a disparate collection of original articles that, combined together in a form of OR, looks like creating an argument that some non-Austrians also predicted the housing bust. However I think it's innocuous now (a lot of the POV-pushing has been edited out) so I'm relaxed about it now. However BigHex should be big enough to acknowledge it was OR.

"Mainstream economics is concerned with the correct specification of mathematically tractable models. A mainstream theory consists of a set of definitions of the variables to be employed, a set of assumptions under which the theory is meant to apply, and a set of hypotheses about how things behave." (From the Mises Institute) The Four Deuces (talk) 10:55, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The Four Deuces raises the point trying to be conveyed, that the dispute is in a section about "METHODOLOGY." In any case, as mentioned, someone else has been editing that sentence and, despite User:Weakopedia's false attribution, it was another person who added Godley and Keen (though it should be noted that the sentence gave a different context at that time). My list included Baker (who certainly produces papers based on standard assumptions) and New Keynesians such as Roubini, Krugman, and Shiller. In any case, the issue at hand is methodology, and, specifically, the implication of the Austrian claim that their a priori methods are superior because the other branches which comprise the majority failed where the Austrians supposedly succeeded leads to a pretty clear slant. The disputed sentence is meant to be a point about empirical/mathematical methodology and the economists employing such methods, though we can limit the sentence to the New Keynesians I originally had in the text, if need be. BigK HeX (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible text

As an possible remedy for the POV issues I mentioned above, text limited to the New Keynesians that I originally referenced could look like:

Austrians also counter with the argument that mainstream economics has a very poor record of "scientific" prediction and note that mainstream economists generally failed to predict or warn of major economic events such as the recent Global Financial Crisis and the Great Depression. However, economists associated with the mainstream economic schools have been credited with warning of the Global Financial Crisis, including Robert Shiller and Nouriel Roubini; Paul Krugman also has an article from 2005 entitled, "That Hissing Sound.".

I think this would eliminate the concerns I am aware of, regarding the economists' orthodoxy. Comments would be appreciated. BigK HeX (talk) 16:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm OK with the current version. It's more detailed than this suggestion and this suggestion is directionless. Why even put PK in? There doesn't seem to be any point.

Addition of O.R. at the PNS Ghazi article

PNS Ghazi was a Pakistani submarine that sank during the 1971 Indo-Pak War. The following uncited text (link to diff) was added by User:UplinkAnsh and my attempts to remove it have been reverted. In the edit summary of his edit at 21:46, 10 April 2010 he states the following: "No details about Pakistan carring out any investigation is available. Cite source if Pakistan carried out any investigation." User:UplinkAnsh is assuming that because a source cannot be found mentioning a Pakistani investigation of the submarine's sinking, there has been no Pakistani investigation. If anything the article should state that it is currently unknown whether the Pakistan Navy has investigated the incident. Can somebody advise me on whether UplinkAnsh is at fault and what should be my next step? --Hj108 (talk) 14:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Criticism of Judaism

Criticism of Judaism seems to me to consist of original research. Almost every paragraph is of the form "Blah blah blah says XXX; however, ZZZ", without any sources for this argumentation. Isn't this similar to synthesis? --jpgordon 01:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That is a good question, one that has been discussed many times on the talk pages of

• Criticism of Islam
• Criticism of Christianity
• Criticism of Mormonism
• Criticism of Judaism
• Criticism of Catholicism

The consensus is that these article are considered to be useful as WP:List or WP:Summary Style articles. In other words, they provide one-stop-shopping for readers that are interested in criticism. Without such articles, finding the information would be nearly impossible. In the Talk pages of all the "Criticism of someReligion" articles, the debate has been held, over and over, and the outcome is always keep. Indeed, the Criticism of Judaism article had its own AfD (as did many of the other Criticism articles):

• Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Judaism
• Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Mormonism
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Hinduism
• Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_the_Bible
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Atheism

And it is not just religion; there are scores of "Criticism of .." articles that serve as WP:Summary Style indexes, such as the infamous Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Wikipedia. The bottom line is that the purpose of the encyclopedia is to help users find information. Consider a reader looking at Criticism of religion; they are curious about criticisms of Catholicism, so they then navigate to Criticism of Catholicism, and they see a section on child abuse, so they then link to Catholic sex abuse cases. That navigation sequence is a very natural sequence, and very useful to readers. Eliminating list-style and summary-style articles would harm the encyclopedia immensely. My suggestion is that editors focus on improving the neutrality and balance of these articles, rather than repeatedly trying to delete them. Some simple things that can be done to improve the articles are:

• Ensure that balancing (rebuttal) information is included
• Ensure that neutral, encyclopedic tone is maintained
• Treat the articles as WP:Summary Style and put the detail into (existing) focused-topic articles
• Provide excellent sources for all content, preferring secondary sources (not primary).

... --Noleander (talk) 03:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

These articles should be summary-style synopses of major criticisms of the religion. They should be neither indiscrimante lists of any Tom, Dick, or Harry who wrote a criticism of the religion, nor should they conflate criticism of religious people with criticisms of the religion, nor should they be syntheses of existing separate statements or, even worse, original research. In the opinion of most who are responding on Criticism_of_Judaism, your additions suffer variously from one or all of these issues. -- Avi (talk) 03:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You may be confusing primary sources with secondary sources. If an editor were to include content from a critic "Critic C says blah blah about religion R" that is a primary source, and OR/Synth may be involved. However, if a scholar or academic writes "Critics C1 and C1 say blah blah about religion R" and an editor includes _that_ criticism, from a secondary source, then that is not OR/Synth. Especially when two or more secondary sources document the criticism. I believe all the content of Criticism of Judaism includes criticisms documented by multiple secondary sources. Is there content in the article that is only sourced with primary sources? --Noleander (talk) 13:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There are no criteria whatsoever for what constitutes "criticism" of Judaism. The only criteria is the willfulness of an editor to include virtually anything that bears any tangential relationship to Judaism. "Criticism" is too wide a criteria to provide meaningful bounds for an article. In point of fact if anything sourced bears a reference to Judaism, it is fair game for inclusion in this article. That is because no reference to Judaism is ever a wholehearted endorsement of Judaism — whether by members of the religion or by nonmembers of that religion. Critical thinking (and speaking, and writing) is far too commonplace to possibly provide bounds for what should or should not be included in any article. The article as presently configured is clearly in violation of WP:INDISCRIMINATE. It is a hodgepodge without definition or parameters. I don't know what the answer is for moving forward, but clearly some changes are called for. I would recommend outright deletion of the article. Bus stop (talk) 03:36, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It is not correct to say that "there are no criteria". If you look at the "Criticism of .." articles you'll see there are two distinct criteria that are used: (1) Negative claims (about a religion) that notable; and (2) Negative claims about a religion that are documented by reliable secondary sources. The latter criterion is more restrictive, and I believe that all content in Criticism of Judaism follows that criterion. Also, it appears the same restrictive criterion is used for Criticism of Islam. On the other hand, Criticism of Christianity appears to use criterion (1). --Noleander (talk) 13:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Noleander — it sounds to me like you are conceding that concerning topics for inclusion in an article such as this there are no criteria, or at least you have not pointed to any. You have only pointed out that we should be using "reliable secondary sources." But as concerns what topics this article properly covers there are no criteria serving to bring that into focus. The only requirement for inclusion in this article is a tenuous relation to Judaism in a reliable source. That is serving as the jumping-off point for what this article is construing as criticism of Judaism. Bus stop (talk) 08:22, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Not quite... Noleander is saying that being documented by a reliable secondary source is the criteria for inclusion. It is a broad criteria, but not an indiscriminate one (it does exclude criticisms made by primary sources or unreliable secondary sources). The question is, is this too broad a criteria... do we need something in addition? Blueboar (talk) 17:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I have just been reviewing some of the sections on women and find them horribly biased toward liberal, feminist Jewish sources. Other sections, too, dredge up the most liberal POVs just to make this into an article. I disagree with Noleander's explanation: Just because something was published in a journal doesn't make it a reliable source, it just makes it a secondary source. This whole article is a blatant example of OR, INDISCRIMINATE, and SYNTH. Noleander continues to insist that this article's approach is no different than Criticism of Christianity and Criticism of Islam. I think that all of them are inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. Yoninah (talk) 00:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Jane Roberts

See this series of edits. I am inviting comments by editors uninvolved with this and the very similar disputes that have been going on for the last few weeks, especially in relation to WP:RS#Academic consensus and WP:SYN. Hans Adler 21:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Chabad-Lubavitch related controversies

To the following paragraph:

Rabbi Elazar Shach issued a series of public criticisms of Schneerson, from the 1970s through Schneerson's death in 1994. He accused Schneerson's followers of false Messianism, and Schneerson of fomenting a cult of crypto-messianism around himself. He objected to Schneerson's call for "demanding" the Messiah's appearance

an editor has added the following argument:

, despite Schneerson having cited Rabbinical precedent for this, including that of Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan (the Chofetz Chaim), one of the most important figures of the 20th century Torah world.<ref>Chofetz Chaim, Likut al hasiddur-168,C'C al hatorah, par.behar, and similar statements in p.noach. See also the Kol Yaakov, on p' tavo 16</ref>

He insists on the article's Talk: page that this is not original research, and, in response to its removal, has said "For you to attempt deliberate distortion of this type, by removing relevant context, and presenting ignorant criticism as fact is simply a violation of http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view". Is this, in fact, original research? Jayjg 04:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC) This is about your deliberately corrupting the facts, and has absolutely nothing to do with original research. The issues surrounding Chabad, Rabbi Schneerson, and the Lubavitch organization are both well-known, and highly controversial. Schneerson is famous for quoting sources and precedent for his positions at the time he promoted them This is all a matter of historical record. Rabbi Shach launched a number of sharp attacks on Schneerson and Chabad during the 1980's, assuming positions for which he provided no textual references. For The difference between an encyclopedia and a soapbox is that one provides a relatively objective treatment of the subject matter, which is why http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV is important. What Jayjg is attempting here is to present a patently false scenario. That has no place in an encyclopedia. Winchester2313 (talk) 23:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

As a further note, he has also added this to the article:

This concept (of Tzadikim being called 'God') is often refererred to in classic Kaballistic and Chassidic texts, such as Pardes Rimonim 16:6 and 22:3 by Rabbi Moshe Cordovero, Zohar-2 38a, and Zohar-3 79b, and Sefer Tanya ch. 22 & 23. See also Rashi Bereshit 33:20. Note that the Divrei Shlomo (Venice 1596) writing on p.vaeira, explicitly states that"All the Names of God are actually 'atzmuso umehoso', and not merely descriptive like the other names people give to things..."</ref> Shach described this as nothing short of idolatry.<ref>This, despite the sources cited above. See also Zohar-1 9a, Zohar-2 163b, Mechilta on Exodus 18, Bereishit Rabba 86, Tanchuma Tissa 27, and the well-known Chassidic principle ascribing fundamentally the same status to the soul of any Jew, as elaborated on by R. SZ of Liadi in Tanya ch.2 </ref>

This appears to me to be more original research intended to advance an argument. Jayjg 05:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Clear original research/synth in order to POV push. There is not, and never has been, mainstream Judaism support for declaring any one living person the Messiah; whether it was 2000 years ago in the Middle East or in 20th century Brooklyn. Taking bits of esoteric texts as your sources when those sources are not completely representative nor completely reliable sources on what Judaism believes (and I'm being generous when I say that). He might as well be quoting the Third Book of Maccabees as a source of what Hanukkah means to Jews.Camelbinky (talk) 06:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, this has nothing to do with POV. When a major Hassidic leader makes a statement in line with Hassidic texts and tradition, and some twenty-odd years later is attacked by an outsider in a display of abject ignorance of said tradition, then the source material upon which the original statement was based is highly relevant. When the article in question is titled; Chabad - Lubavitch related Controversies, then context is everything. Jayig would obviously prefer to create the false impression that Shach attacked Chabad, and that his attack was accepted as is. Such distortions of history have no place in an encyclopedia. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NOR#Synthesis_of_published_material_that_advances_a_position carefully, and you will see that these sources belong in this article. Winchester2313 (talk) 23:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Do these sources mention Shach, or refer to his arguments? Jayjg 22:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Is the use of an interview published by a secondary source considered to be primary source.

User:Drrll has asked whether the use of a transcript of a radio interview of a representative of the Southern Poverty Law Center should be treated as a primary source per Misplaced Pages policy, even though the interview is published by the secondary source WNYC as part of their journalism about media. Third opinions might help us resolve this discussion. Thanks. SaltyBoatr (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

This is another of those "it's a little of both" situations. A lot depends on how you are using it, and what the topic is. If the topic of the article or section was how right wing groups can use the media, then it could be treated as a secondary source. But in this case, the topic is the SPLC and its views on right wing rhetoric, so it is primary. Blueboar (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

question as to bar for WP:OR

At National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms there is a question as to if the table and figure represent original research (OR). On the talk page I have pointed to some possible sources that publish something similar but nobody has exactly the same thing. I am still unsure if this is or is not OR because the concept is so simple, and there are many who use the concept (increase in debt be Presidential term), but there is still no identical table.

If you answer is that the sourcing (and links I provided on the talk page) are insufficient, can you please tell me what would be sufficient? Alternately, if you think that this article/table/image do not violate OR, can you please explain how they should be cited or why this is the case? Thanks in advance for your thought! 0 (talk) 01:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I am amazed that the article has been allowed to exist for so long. I haven't looked at the precise issue you mention because the whole thing is total OR and any competent POV pusher could add tables to show whatever they wanted. I agree that the simple idea is rather nice: compare the national debt at the beginning and the end of each presidential term. However, life is not so simple in practice and independent secondary sources that have worked out what each President did that resulted in an increase or decrease is required. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Observations about political affiliation and changes in US government debt has been made by several political commentators (Paul Krugman for example). This makes the introduction of this issue into Misplaced Pages not OR. Citations to those outside commentators would be welcome however. If I have time, I'll leave some cites on the article talk page. LK (talk) 06:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, these are the two ways I saw of seeing it. A third editor on the page called it a "routine calculation." I can see all three sides. This is why I posted on this noticeboard. How do we sort this out? 0 (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The article suffers from clear OR and factual accuracy issues. As O18 points no, no source exactly replicates the table, it has been created via WP:Synthesis. Further, its making an apples-to-oranges comparison. Spending bills originate in the House, but the article implictly lays responsibility for spending in the executive branch. A table collating spending by who controlled Congress would be better (though still very problematic). The problem is that the entire article, down to the color-coding on the chart, is clearly designed to promote a particular point of view, rather than factually educating the reader. For instance, the majority of the spending increase in the 2005-2009 period happened when Obama took office in Jan 2009, but it's chalked up to Bush.

The largest problem of all is that federal fiscal years don't begin and end on presidential terms. Whenever a president is elected, they "inherit" a portion of the budet from the previous president, but can also work to make changes themselves (though as previously noted, Congress ultimately has more responsibility here). Trying to artificially align presidential terms to fiscal budgets just cannot be accurately done. Fell Gleaming 15:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

FellGleaming, please stick to what is not referenced for this discussion. the article already states

Louis Fisher writes, "Congress rarely appropriates more than what the President requests." In the case of Nixon, who fought fiercly with congress over the budget, he writes, "Congress was able to adhere to the President's totals while significantly altering his priorities."

The point is the President sets the spending totals and they are adhered to. 0 (talk) 15:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Is that the ex-Socialist candidate for President? You're basing your argument of a remark of his made over 20 years ago? Congress regularly has and does exceed the amounts requested by the President...and that is the least of the problems in this article. The real problem is that you cannot align federal fiscal years with presidential terms. No matter how you allocate years, you're forced to tie at least some spending by a president to his successor or predecessor. Fell Gleaming 19:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

FellGleaming, not sure if you know this, but NPOV and verifiability apply to discussion pages too. Can you please give us some sort of reference for Louis Fisher being a socialist candidate for president, that congress exceeds the President's request, and that it matters in any year other than 2009 that the President changed office. In addition, as was pointed out on the talk page, you actually argued for the timing that is currently used in the table. 0 (talk) 01:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

WRT the excision of passage based on assertions of WP:OR...

Forgive me if this question seems familiar.

Another contributor, User:Iqinn, has excised sections of dozens of articles that provide references that confirm US official sources used multiple names to refer to Guantanamo captives. Iqinn justified the excision of the passages that confirm the multiple names with edit summaries that claimed those passages were (1) "dehumanizing"; and (2) a lapse from WP:OR.

If my question here looks familiar it may be because you saw where I asked for third party input at WP:BLPN over whether those passages were "dehumanizing". My interpretation of that discussion is that no one shared his dehumanizing concern.

Some of the wikipedians who weighed in at BLPN offered the opinion that the passages didn't lapse from WP:OR either.

Subsequently, User:Iqinn continued removing similar passages from articles, including from the article on Abdul Rahman al-Amri, the fourth Guantanamo captive to have been reported to have committed suicide. On Talk:Abdul Rahman al-Amri Iqinn wrote:

Misplaced Pages is a community and there are various opinions. I have no doubt that the Identity section had "dehumanizing" character and was WP:OR and the section has been removed for at least WP:OR that was the result of the discussion.

Over in the BLPN discussion did offer a defense of characterizing the passages as lapses from WP:OR

Sections like this Fahd Umr Abd Al Majid Al Sharif#Identity creates an idea that is not stated in any of these RS. That is OR by WP:SYN. Such a sections dehumanize the detainees as it deprives them of their individuality. These sections have been mass added just by one editor who is listing any misspelling from mostly primary source he can find. Notable alternate names of the detainees have been added to the infobox. These "Identity" sections are unencyclopedic and unnecessary. IQinn (talk) 18:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC) The wrong impression (idea) that the "Identity" of the detainees is in question. The identity and name of the detainees are not in question and well documented in reliable secondary sources.

If possible I'd like this discussion to be confined to the question of whether the excision of this passage was authorized by WP:OR, and have discussion of whether or not the passage was "dehumanizing" take place at WP:BLPN.

If possible I'd like to request that any other concerns with this passage take place elsewhere -- I suggest Talk:Abdul Rahman al-Amri.

Thanks in advance! Geo Swan (talk) 19:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

1. See Mechtavim v'Ma'amorim : Volume 1, Letter 6 (page 15), Letter 8 (page 19). Volume 3, Statements on pages 100-101, Letter on page 102. Volume 4, letter 349 (page 69), letter 351 (page 71). Volume 5, letter 533 (page 137), letter 535 (page 139), speech 569 (page 173), statement 570 (page 174); see
2. The Independent (London), November 10, 2001, by David Landau.

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