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Lead changes

Changes were made to the lead that does not summarise the article. See WP:LEAD. I would like to gain talk page consensus to restore the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I've inserted the word 'alternative' in the lead, seeing as the infobox and the rest of the article is quite clear that it's not a mainstream discipline. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 14:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a sentence in the lead that says "It is generally categorized as complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), a characterization that many chiropractors reject." Inserted the word 'alternative' in the lead was duplication. QuackGuru (talk) 18:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Not necessarily - I feel that we're not giving enough weight to the fact that it's not real science. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The lead says "It is generally categorized as complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), a characterization that many chiropractors reject." Inserted the word 'alternative' in the lead was duplication.

Not necessarily - I feel that we're not giving enough weight to the fact that it's not real science.

You did not explain how it is "Not necessarily" duplication. You think "that we're not giving enough weight to the fact that it's not real science." Whether or not it is not real science is a separate issue and irrelevant to this discussion. The word alternative and not real science are different topics. An unattributed opinion is a violation of WP:ASF. See WP:ASF: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." When there is a serious dispute it is considered an opinion according to ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

No, you did not fix the attribution problem and you reworded another sentence is irrelevant to the attribution problem. The first mention is clealry not appropriate for the summary description in the first sentence. It is still an unattributed opinion that is a violation of WP:ASF. Instead of improving the article, the edit made things much worse. This edit did not remove the duplication. Chiropractic is a complementary and alternative health care is an unattributed opinion. I made this change because the sentence violates ASF and the other reworded is not neutral in tone. QuackGuru (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
It is still a violation of ASF. The text is referenced to the source but it is not in-text attributed. The text is asserted as fact without in-text attribution. The opinion is asserted as fact without explanation from other editors. QuackGuru (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this mess to the lead can be fixed with in-text attribution. My proposal is to revert all the non-consensus edits to the lead and I suggested a proposal in another thread that will fix the confusion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Try a better wording right here. Make a proposal and maybe a consensus wording will emerge.
Do you agree it is a violation of ASF?
There was not a problem with the previous consensus version. The recent bold changes are against ASF and WEIGHT. Please explain how an unntributed opinion is not a violation of ASF. My proposal is to revert all the recent changes. I don't see a problem with the previous version but I have pointed out how the non-consensus version does have problems. If editors want to clarify about primary care providers I made a proposal in another thread. QuackGuru (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
No, I do not have peculiar ideas of what ASF means. That is your excuse to ignore my comments. When I discussed ASF you did not respond to my concerns. You have not explained how this unattributed opinion is not a violation of ASF and you did not answer the question whether you think it is a violation of ASF. There was no problem with the previous version so there is no need to make a proposal with non-consensus version. There is still a problem with duplication in the lead. I pointed this out before but it was ignored. I did make a different proposal. The proposal was to revert all the bold changes and clarify the lead with another proposal that you are not interested in commenting on. QuackGuru (talk) 02:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I previously explained my point of view. I suggested to revert the bold changes that were duplication and against ASF and clarify the matter with a different proposal. QuackGuru (talk) 03:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

<- You know good and well that you have been asked to not use links to your previous comments rather than answer questions. That's stonewalling and totally unhelpful. I have already read what you wrote.

Did you address my concerns about duplication. The more that I think about it the more I think the problem cannot be fixed with Chapman-Smith's name appearing in the lead. I have a better idea. That sentence is poorly written and should be fixed by reverting to the long standing consensus version. I have complained about duplication in the lead which was not fixed. The duplication can be fixed by restoring to the previous version. QuackGuru (talk) 03:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Did you address my concerns about duplication.
I proposed restoring to the version before this edit without "Chapman-Smith's name appearing in the lead". If we restore to the long standing consensus veersion then we don't need to add attribution to the lead using poorly written sentences. QuackGuru (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, to get what you want with the lead without undoing other intervening edits elsewhere, here's the lead paragraph from that time:

I would of liked my concerns about duplication among other problems be addressed. You can revert your own edit if you like. QuackGuru (talk) 04:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
You want to leave his edit but you encouraged me to substitute it the the previous version. You wrote "I have no objection." among other things. QuackGuru (talk) 04:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Forget that. I forgot that his edit was there, and I have no problem with it, especially now that it's attributed with the ref. I have stricken that comment of mine to avoid confusion.
Attributed with the ref is irrelvent. Did you address my concerns about duplication yet.
You wanted me to revert his edit and instead you reverted my edit. I partially reverted by restoring the tag. There is still an issue with duplication. QuackGuru (talk) 04:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Of course you have no objection if I revert Chase me ladies, the Cavalry but for you it was a different story. QuackGuru (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten about my concerns about duplication. QuackGuru (talk) 04:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You don't see a problem with duplication when there is a problem. "It is generally categorized as complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), a characterization that many chiropractors reject." This sentence that summarises the body shows a serious dispute and adding the unnatributed opinion 'alternative' to the previous sentence is duplication. QuackGuru (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
"Mainstream health care and governmental organizations such as the World Health Organization consider chiropractic to be complementary and alternative medicine (CAM); and a 2008 study reported that 31% of surveyed chiropractors categorized chiropractic as CAM, 27% as integrated medicine, and 12% as mainstream medicine." This text is in the body and was summarised in the lead.
This bold change removed text from the lead that summarised the body. Now the lead does not summarise the body because of this odd edit. QuackGuru (talk) 05:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I propose restoring to the last NPOV version before all the problem edits began. QuackGuru (talk) 05:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

This text is from the body: "Mainstream health care and governmental organizations such as the World Health Organization consider chiropractic to be complementary and alternative medicine (CAM); and a 2008 study reported that 31% of surveyed chiropractors categorized chiropractic as CAM, 27% as integrated medicine, and 12% as mainstream medicine."
This text summarised the body: "It is generally categorized as complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), a characterization that many chiropractors reject."
I previously explained how the text deleted from the lead violated WP:LEAD.
BullRangifer agreed to revert his edit but then without consensus deleted the sentence from the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 05:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Weight violation again

The article says "In 2008 and 2009, chiropractors, including the British Chiropractic Association, used libel lawsuits and threats of lawsuits against their critics."

This change is a weight violation. QuackGuru (talk) 18:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

No, this was dicussed before and it was rejected to have this amount of coverage of this subject. This was a violation of WEIGHT according to past discussion on a similar paragraph. I made this change to the disputed paragraph. The paragraph should not be merged. It should be deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 01:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
There was no misunderstanding. You have made similar comments like this before. QuackGuru (talk) 03:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
There are past discussions about similar text. See Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 30#Singh paragraph. QuackGuru (talk) 06:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Regardless of past discussions, please remember that WP:Consensus can change. VernoWhitney (talk) 19:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
You have not given a reason why the text should remain or be removed. QuackGuru (talk) 19:18, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
And neither have you - citing a policy is all well and good, but you haven't explained why it's undue weight. I must also point out that citing a 9 month old opinion by a single editor doesn't really hold any water as far as providing consensus, nor does it qualify as past discussion. VernoWhitney (talk) 19:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
There were a lot more previous discussions on this that were all rejected as against WEIGHT. QuackGuru (talk) 19:33, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

This text has serious WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENTISM issues; it is way too much detail for Chiropractic about one incident. There have been thousands of prosecutions over chiropractic, many more serious than this one (resulting in significant jail time), and most of this has been chiropractors being the jailed rather than the prosecutors. QuackGuru (talk) 19:33, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh good, and here I was afraid you might just copy and paste the same arguments the other editer made last time... I do happen to agree with you, however, that more than a sentence in the main article is probably excessive (but then I'm completely unfamiliar with the topic, so another editor may point out a reason that it's not undue weight). Rather than just deleting it however, the new sources should be used to update the paragraph about the event in the Chiropractic controversy and criticism article, since it still states that "the suit is ongoing". VernoWhitney (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
The content should be deleted from this article first and then anyone is free to update the controversy article. A quick check of the archives will show past discussion on this topic. For example, see Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 29#Simon Singh to put chiropractic on trial in UK. QuackGuru (talk) 19:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I made this change to the case. QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Looks good to me, I can now support the removal of that paragraph from this article without hesitation. Others (e.g., BullRangifer) may disagree, but I get the feeling that's a common occurrence around here. Cheers! VernoWhitney (talk) 20:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Summarise Scope of practice

Although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry. I propose summarising Chiropractic#Scope of practice in the WP:LEAD. This edit is an unattributed opinion in violation of WP:ASF but this proposal will clarify in the lead that chiropractic is not necessarily a primary health care provider. QuackGuru (talk) 18:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The attribtuion problem is not fixed. You have not commented on the above proposal. So far no specific objection was made to the proposal in this thread. QuackGuru (talk) 00:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
You asserted that you fixed it when I think you made things much worse. This proposal will fix or clarify the issues in the lead IMHO. QuackGuru (talk) 01:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
There is no need to repeat my proposal. QuackGuru (talk) 02:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
"Although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry." This is the proposal you missed. QuackGuru (talk) 03:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
It is proposed as an addition to the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 03:25, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
That would be a bit bold to make such an edit so soon. QuackGuru (talk) 03:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I was waiting for Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry to comment in another thread or consider this proposal to fix the confusion in the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 04:06, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I think this is a related issue to this edit. This proposal may resolve the other issue with the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 04:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't know exactly where. But I thought in the first paragraph somehwere. QuackGuru (talk) 04:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Failed verification

Attorney David Chapman-Smith, Secretary-General of the World Federation of Chiropractic, has stated that "subluxations are not structural entities and cannot be detected on x‑ray."

I was unable to find this quote in the book. Thus, it failed verification. QuackGuru (talk) 02:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

No, you just weren't able to find it. A simple search would have confirmed it's in the book. Even when we can't access a book, that doesn't mean it's not there. It was there when the edit was made, and I doubt that it's been removed. You need to be creative! Here are a couple chiropractic sources that affirm it's there:
Did you know I have a copy of the book. I think we both know what is verified and what is not verified. QuackGuru (talk) 02:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no idea whether or not you have a copy. If you have a copy, please explain why you started this specious thread. Are you baiting me?
I started this thread because I have a concern with the text. That was it. See WP:V.
David Chapman-Smith (2000). The Chiropractic Profession: Its Education, Practice, Research and Future Directions. NCMIC Group. p. 160. ISBN 1-89273-402-8.
If other editors want to contribute to this discussion I suggest getting a copy of the book and try to verify the text in quotation marks. QuackGuru (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to explain I could not verify the text. I'll leave it up to other editors to decide if the text in quotation marks should stand or be rewritten. QuackGuru (talk) 04:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
What is in the book may not be the same from the websites. I would like it if someone else would get a copy of the book and try to verify the quote along with the page number. QuackGuru (talk) 05:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I am concerned because I cannot verify the claim. See WP:V. Did you have a copy of the book. What page is the quote on. I could not verify the exact quotes. Did you add the quotes to the chiropractic article? QuackGuru (talk) 20:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Hope you two don't mind me jumping in again. BullRangifer did add the quote, and I don't know if it helps (since I don't have a copy of the book), but here is a webpage which talks about the section it's in, so maybe that will help you narrow down your search area for verifying it. Cheers! VernoWhitney (talk) 21:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
What is found on the webpage was not what I could find in the book. I could not find the exact quotes anywhere in the book. QuackGuru (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I request the exact page number where the exact quotes appear in the book. A webpage is not the book. QuackGuru (talk) 03:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I never said I had the book or a page number (I have neither), but the webpage I mentioned says something about the section in which the quote is allegedly found. I was just trying to help. Now I'll let you two get back to slugging it out. VernoWhitney (talk) 03:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I made this change. There is a proposal to replace the source with a MEDRS approved source that I know is verified. See Talk:Chiropractic#Neutral point of view. QuackGuru (talk) 03:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I could not find the exact quotes in the book. MEDRS does apply to the source. There was past discussion on this to remove this quote too. QuackGuru (talk) 05:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
MEDRS applies to this source like any other science material. There are a number of chiropractors who have written a book but there are better sources avaiable that cover the same specfic topic. See WP:MEDRS. Why you removed this. Is it because the exact quotes do not appear on 160. I request what page number the exact quotes appear. QuackGuru (talk) 05:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The edit summary claims The ref provides the page. The page does not verify the claim. I have the book and I read the book. I could not find anywhere in the book the exact quotes. Have you read the book. Can you tell me what page the exact quotes appear. QuackGuru (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Why not just attribute it to the review? An article published by the World Chiropractic Alliance quoted X as saying Y. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Because the review is unreliable and the review's claim that the statement is from the book could not be verified. QuackGuru (talk) 16:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

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Chiropractic is a health care discipline and profession that emphasizes diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system, especially the spine, under the hypothesis that these disorders affect general health via the nervous system.

This two sentence proposal below, among other things, is to go after the first sentence in the lead.

"It is generally categorized as complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), a characterization that many chiropractors reject. Although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry."

This proposal is to remove the word alternative and add the two sentences above to the lead while reverting this edit and this edit, revert this edit, remove the weight violation from History and controversy, and reverting this unsourced edit.

An unattributed opinion is a violation of WP:ASF. See WP:ASF: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." When there is a serious dispute it is considered an opinion according to ASF. To fix the problem I propose to add the two sentences which clarifies the health care discipline. We should explain the serious dispute rather than asserting it is an "alternative" health care as fact. Summarising the body is in accordance with WP:LEAD. The word alternative is not a good summary of the body.

Editorial note (16:30, 23 April 2010): ASF policy no longer exists. The elimination of ASF policy was fully supported by BullRangifer. I assume BullRangifer and other editors prefer WP:IAR.

There was no misunderstanding on my part. BullRangifer, you have made similar comments like this in the past. The Singh paragraph has serious WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENTISM issues; it is way too much detail for Chiropractic about one incident. There have been thousands of prosecutions over chiropractic, many more serious than this one (resulting in significant jail time), and most of this has been chiropractors being the jailed rather than the prosecutors. BullRangifer agreed to revert his edit but then without consensus deleted the sentence from the lead which went against summarising the body.

For Chiropractic#Vertebral subluxation.

Replace this WP:MEDRS violation less reliable source: Attorney David Chapman-Smith, Secretary-General of the World Federation of Chiropractic, has stated that "subluxations are not structural entities and cannot be detected on x‑ray."

With this MEDRS source: The 2008 book Trick or Treatment states "X-rays can reveal neither the subluxations nor the innate intelligence associated with chiropractic philosophy, because they do not exist." QuackGuru (talk) 03:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Chapman-Smith is not considered an expert researcher on the topic. The book Trick or Treatment is written by experts on the subject in accordance with MEDRS policy. QuackGuru (talk) 05:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The book written by Chapman-Smith is very poorly written by a non-expert. I requested the page number to verify the claim but BullRangifer was unable to provide the exact page number where the exact quotes appear in the book. QuackGuru (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The best source for a statement that you can't see these hypothesised entities by X-ray would be a review published in a mainstream peer-reviewed journal. If you want to cite an additional source from a chiropractic journal agreeing with the main source, that would cover the point even more comprehensively. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's hear from someone other than Brangifer for a change.

  1. Cite error: The named reference Nelson was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Chapman-Smith was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Redwood-CAM was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. Cite error: The named reference content-of-practice was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. Cite error: The named reference History-PPC was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. Cite error: The named reference Keating-subluxation was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ Cite error: The named reference Meeker-Haldeman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. Cite error: The named reference Trick-or-Treatment was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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